Are you sure about pop10 can work 6 scientists? I thought we needed pop11 :confused: Once you have 4 fps farmed= 14 :food: with 4 citizens. pop10 and fp -2:health: = -12:health:. We don't even need wheat or seafood. (Each extra :food: = +1:health:)

Which also means that at pop11 we can work the gold with wheat and 1 seafood...:wallbash:

The plan is a variation of LC's Elaboration (post 445).Actually much closer to my post 463 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6327034&postcount=463).

Gladyoustoppeddrinkinglongenoughtocontributesome,E rkon. This capture-wheat-with-Confucianism really rocks. Now to me the question is, can we pull this off and actually survive the barbs and our All-2-Wars condition?

Here's an idea, based on one of my patented perversions of klarius' ideas. We do build axes in Timbuktu after the T10 settler (starting T11, of course). We build the Stone City settler too, but we poprush it in London, asap after Oracle. We get the Pyramids somewhat later, but that doesn't delay our GS's, only our early research bonus. What it means for us is that we can send that axe down to Hannibal immediately to start worker stealing. And in general we are better off because we are cranking out axes earlier.

But in this case, I would rather use the original MM plan for TImbuktu, sending the FP City settler (+ 1 worker) out on T10 at the expense of a 2pop poprush, but gaining the mined hill in return. We mine all three Timbuktu hills plus chop. This also leaves the London worker in London until it escorts the settler to Stone City, so he can build the London mine.

Well, people we don't need representation for the beaker bonus only.
We need it also for happiness.
Otherwise your size 10-11 stories don't work.

Once you have 4 fps farmed= 14 :food: with 4 citizens. pop10 and fp -2:health: = -12:health:. We don't even need wheat or seafood. (Each extra :food: = +1:health:)

Which also means that at pop11 we can work the gold with wheat and 1 seafood...:wallbash:

No, with 4 citizens working 4 farmed FP you get:

+2 :food: from city
+4*4 :food: from FP
-4*2 :food: from citizens
2+16+8=10food => 5 scientists.

Which means at pop9, we have 5 scientists and 4 working citizens.
At pop11, we have 6 scientists and 5 working citizens.

Why don't we arrive at the same conclusions? :confused:

Well, people we don't need representation for the beaker bonus only.
We need it also for happiness.
Otherwise your size 10-11 stories don't work.Yes. I don't expect Pyramids to be that much later. Still soon enough for the advanced levels of population.
No, with 4 citizens working 4 farmed FP you get:

+2 :food: from city
+4*4 :food: from FP
-4*2 :food: from citizens
2+16+8=10food => 5 scientists.

Which means at pop9, we have 5 scientists and 4 working citizens.
At pop11, we have 6 scientists and 5 working citizens.

Why don't we arrive at the same conclusions? :confused:Maybe because I'm an idiot? I've been thinking fps give us 5:food:. Evidently, not.

EDIT: Okay, I'm back from throwing up. :wallbash: Thanks for saving my butt, Erkon. If you hadn't figured another way to make FP City useful, I'd get the Idiot of the Millenium award.

Actually much closer to my post 463 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6327034&postcount=463).

Gladyoustoppeddrinkinglongenoughtocontributesome,E rkon. This capture-wheat-with-Confucianism really rocks. Now to me the question is, can we pull this off and actually survive the barbs and our All-2-Wars condition?

Here's an idea, based on one of my patented perversions of klarius' ideas. We do build axes in Timbuktu after the T10 settler (starting T11, of course). We build the Stone City settler too, but we poprush it in London, asap after Oracle. We get the Pyramids somewhat later, but that doesn't delay our GS's, only our early research bonus. What it means for us is that we can send that axe down to Hannibal immediately to start worker stealing. And in general we are better off because we are cranking out axes earlier.

But in this case, I would rather use the original MM plan for TImbuktu, sending the FP City settler (+ 1 worker) out on T10 at the expense of a 2pop poprush, but gaining the mined hill in return. We mine all three Timbuktu hills plus chop. This also leaves the London worker in London until it escorts the settler to Stone City, so he can build the London mine.

My turnset lasts until T10, so in case we decide on the Erkon/LC strategy it is only the MM until then left to iron out. It seems as if Mitiu is eager to go for this, LC sounds very positive, Erkon is the proponent, and I also feel it would be a fun gamble. klarius and Murky, how do you feel about this?

I don't want any decision until we know what Athens has in its fat cross. Looking again that's only 1 more turn moving the axe sw. I find it suspicious that Alex hasn't netted the second clam. That might mean another good food bonus, maybe making Athens the best short term GP farm around.

I don't want any decision until we know what Athens has in its fat cross. Looking again that's only 1 more turn moving the axe sw. I find it suspicious that Alex hasn't netted the second clam. That might mean another good food bonus, maybe making Athens the best short term GP farm around.It will be nice to see what Alex has in that 2nd city too. Gnejs has to decide what to reserach for a turn and what to do with the Timbuktu worker. We're going to ned Poly if we ever decide to research CoL and it gives us another 20% for Writing. I guess we're agreed on the London worker roading the rice next.

I vote for Poly and mine the hill one more turn.

It will be nice to see what Alex has in that 2nd city too. Gnejs has to decide what to reserach for a turn and what to do with the Timbuktu worker. We're going to ned Poly if we ever decide to research CoL and it gives us another 20% for Writing. I guess we're agreed on the London worker roading the rice next.

I vote for Poly and mine the hill one more turn.

Quitthedrinking, LC. ;) We already have Polytheism. But I can research Priesthood for a turn while scouting some more.

Edit: Btw, there is no harm in leaving that gold unpillaged for a couple of turns, right? I mean, what could Alex research that would disrupt our plans? Masonry? :)

Quitthedrinking, LC. ;) We already have Polytheism. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Edit: Btw, there is no harm in leaving that gold unpillaged for a couple of turns, right? I mean, what could Alex research that would disrupt our plans? Masonry? :)As klarius already pointed out, we don't want to pillage that gold. Let him produce a lighthouse or settler faster...

One more detail: If we're going to axe rush, it would be good to poprush from almost pop6-->pop4, so we would want to grow our population asap. I recommend swithing whatever is it to grow faster forthis one turn also (who cares if we lose a :food: to health fora while). Just a thought anyway from this lowly , drunken puker.

Actually much closer to my post 463 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6327034&postcount=463). Updated

Gladyoustoppeddrinkinglongenoughtocontributesome,E rkon. This capture-wheat-with-Confucianism really rocks. Now to me the question is, can we pull this off and actually survive the barbs and our All-2-Wars condition?

Here's an idea, based on one of my patented perversions of klarius' ideas. We do build axes in Timbuktu after the T10 settler (starting T11, of course). We build the Stone City settler too, but we poprush it in London, asap after Oracle. We get the Pyramids somewhat later, but that doesn't delay our GS's, only our early research bonus. What it means for us is that we can send that axe down to Hannibal immediately to start worker stealing. And in general we are better off because we are cranking out axes earlier.

But in this case, I would rather use the original MM plan for TImbuktu, sending the FP City settler (+ 1 worker) out on T10 at the expense of a 2pop poprush, but gaining the mined hill in return. We mine all three Timbuktu hills plus chop. This also leaves the London worker in London until it escorts the settler to Stone City, so he can build the London mine.

Who said I stopped drinking :cool:

Barbs and 2xAW on Prince is like a fart in space or a pee in the Niles. Wont matter much at this stage. AW war typically makes a difference when the AI has settled a few cities. Maybe the launch an archer or two around 1000 BC. Nothing we can't handle. :)

Rushing in London is one of the most stupid things we can do. We have three high yield tiles we shall ALWAYS work. Screw the growth. Whipping without granary in London is madness. Hrm, sorry for the outburst :blush:

It's better to rush Timbuktu. But since I want to rush on T0, we have to wait a while to rush again. :crazyeye:

Mining a hill for Timbuktu will net us 1 :hammers: / turn + 1 :commerce: / turn. If we chop, we get 30 :hammers:. And if we rush the citizen that wants to work the mine, we get 45 :hammers:. That's why I don't want to build ANY mines next to Timbuktu. :nono:

I suggest that we on T0:

Whip worker in Timbuktu
Road 1SW of Timbuktu
Road rice S SE of London
Research Priesthood

Regarding happiness: With representation we have 9 happiness in FP City. With dye, spice and ivory we have 12, which is enough.

PS: what I meant with the post above was: work Copper, Cow and Gold for 15 turns :please:

EDIT: the chops at Timbuktu will add hammers one turn earlier compared to the text in the image...

We have three high yield tiles we shall ALWAYS work.
We have already 4 tiles we should work all the time IMO and even a fifth which would be of benefit.
If it wasn't that some people are eager to get priesthood ASAP, I would invest 2 turns banana instead of gold to grow in 3.

We have already 4 tiles we should work all the time IMO and even a fifth which would be of benefit.
If it wasn't that some people are eager to get priesthood ASAP, I would invest 2 turns banana instead of gold to grow in 3.

I just wanted to point out that going below pop3 will result in non-optimal tile utilization. Growing to size 4 will gain us 1 :food: / turn and 1 :commerce: / turn until we connect the rice (T11). It will cost us 15 : hammers: and 24 :commerce:. We will get there in 15 turns without working the banana. It's thus 12 food versus 15 :hammers: and 12 :commerce:, so it's not only about research, is it?

It may be clever to grow to size 4 on T11, but I don't think it is optimum before.

I just wanted to point out that going below pop3 will result in non-optimal tile utilization. Growing to size 4 will gain us 1 :food: / turn and 1 :commerce: / turn until we connect the rice (T11). It will cost us 15 : hammers: and 24 :commerce:. We will get there in 15 turns without working the banana. It's thus 12 food versus 15 :hammers: and 12 :commerce:, so it's not only about research, is it?

It may be clever to grow to size 4 on T11, but I don't think it is optimum before.
It will allow to grow to size 5 just in time to work the then mined grass hill and still further grow. Otherwise we will probably work it at no growth.
And I was talking about 2 turns banana instead of gold. We miss only 11 food for growth currently.

Edit:
No need that this is the next turn ;)

It will allow to grow to size 5 just in time to work the then mined grass hill and still further grow. Otherwise we will probably work it at no growth.
And I was talking about 2 turns banana instead of gold. We miss only 11 food for growth currently.

Edit:
No need that this is the next turn ;)

I see. So it's 6 :hammers: and 14 :commerce: we loose, and we gain 12 :food:. That makes sense. We can afford the delay with Priesthood, as long as the axe/warrior is delayed one turn. I haven't done the MM, but if it's correct that we will gain further :food: later, it may definitely be worth it...

Well, another point:
How do you get Oracle that fast. I assumed up to now the worker would connect the Timbuktu river then mine the grass hill. No time to chop the forest.
So I don't see where the 225h in 17 turns come from.
OTOH FP city will be settled rather T17-18 than T20. So the gap between settling and Oracle is widening (ok no really big deal :)).
But still, maybe really consider Judaism for culture expansion. That can be timed exactly (if we get it :mischief:).
And revolt to organized and have a missionary ready for Athens (taken by the axes built instead Oracle) would be fine also :D.

If we're going to axe rush, it would be good to poprush from almost pop6-->pop4, so we would want to grow our population asap. I recommend swithing whatever is it to grow faster forthis one turn also Am I not saying what klarius is suggesting, or am I not understanding him? I'm saying grow London to almost pop6 asap AND THEN poprush down to pop4. ALWAYS work the 4 tiles... I didn't have the open save so I couldn't give the details. BUt since we won't have the hill mined for a long time, it makes sense that while we're building the Oracle (if we do that), we're growing our population. ONce we have rice and cattle connected, we can have pop5 without health costs, so poprushing from almost pop6>pop4 nets us a whole bunch of :hammers:. Of course, we could poprush the granary on the first try, but I was thinking we wanted to prioritize the axe rush...

@Erkon: On your worker actions, if we do your way, it's better for the poprushed worker to chop first then road rice. That way he's on the road already and can travel with the settler. And the otherworker can move to the next forest on T9, thus gaining 1 worker turn. Check that out, and prove I'm an idiot again... ;)

Am I not saying what klarius is suggesting, or am I not understanding him? I'm saying grow London to almost pop6 asap AND THEN poprush down to pop4. ALWAYS work the 4 tiles... I didn't have the open save so I couldn't give the details. BUt since we won't have the hill mined for a long time, it makes sense that while we're building the Oracle (if we do that), we're growing our population. ONce we have rice and cattle connected, we can have pop5 without health costs, so poprushing from almost pop6>pop4 nets us a whole bunch of :hammers:.

I don't want to poprush from almost 6 but earliest from almost 7. We will have the hill mined in about 20 turns according to my planning (sorry no tactical roads) and then I always want to work 5 tiles at least.

How do you get Oracle that fast. Here's your answer:London builds one axe, then one warrior, then Oracle. The axe stays as garrison. The warrior escorts the worker that is roading towards Timbuktu. Worker will then chop forest 1N of London into Oracle, which is completed on T22 (1300 BC).

Oracle = 225 :hammers:
6 turns at 11 :hammers: = 66 :hammers:
11 turns at 12 :hammers: = 132 : hammers:
Chop = 30 :hammers:It looks like it's actually complete on T23, I think. I'd rather work the farmed dyes all those turns and postpone ORacle 1 turn.
I don't want to poprush from almost 6 but earliest from almost 7. We will have the hill mined in about 20 turns according to my planning (sorry no tactical roads) and then I always want to work 5 tiles at least.Fine by me. I wasn't pushing for it so much as trying to get your Athens axe rush going faster. Poprushing the granary at half way to pop6 or pop7 is a lot smarter anyway, especially if you're in a hurry to working 5 citizens and poprushing from pop7>5.

Poprushing the granary at half way to pop6 or pop7 is a lot smarter anyway, especially if you're in a hurry to working 5 citizens and poprushing from pop7>5.
Well, the axe rush would come before this anyway, assisted by two pop-rushed axes from Timbuktu (after settler grow to 4 again and pop-rush for 2 - needs probably to put overflow in something else to not overbuild the 2 pop point).

Well, another point:
How do you get Oracle that fast. I assumed up to now the worker would connect the Timbuktu river then mine the grass hill. No time to chop the forest.
So I don't see where the 225h in 17 turns come from.
OTOH FP city will be settled rather T17-18 than T20. So the gap between settling and Oracle is widening (ok no really big deal :)).
But still, maybe really consider Judaism for culture expansion. That can be timed exactly (if we get it :mischief:).
And revolt to organized and have a missionary ready for Athens (taken by the axes built instead Oracle) would be fine also :D.

The hammers are listed in Post 432 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6321650&postcount=432):
London builds one axe, then one warrior, then Oracle. The axe stays as garrison. The warrior escorts the worker that is roading towards Timbuktu. Worker will then chop forest 1N of London into Oracle, which is completed on T22 (1300 BC).

Oracle = 225 :hammers:
6 turns at 11 :hammers: = 66 :hammers:
11 turns at 12 :hammers: = 132 : hammers:
Chop = 30 :hammers:

See screenshot in post 432.

Sending the settler to FP City requires escorts & fogbusters. Fastest route may be 7 turns, but I wanted to show that even if the settler is delayed a couple of turns, it will still reach the city site before CoL.

My main concern with Judaism is that it's a dead end research wise, and that we need Masonry first, thus delaying Pottery et al with about 15 turns.

The Oracle will delay the assault on Athens with ~15 turns i.e. last axe is produced in London on ~T35 instead of ~T50. With Oracle we get CoL 45 turns earlier than researched by hand. If you take Masonry and Monoteism into account, we're looking at 60 turns later (which may be reduced with libraries and scientists of course, although maintenance may nullify these extra beakers:confused: ).

Monotheism enables organized for 25% on buildings and missionaries w/o meditation, which we don't want to research to avoid the philosophy light bulb. That's quite a lot for 256 beakers on top of the masonry research we want to do anyway.

Edit:
And if we don't do the priesthood folly (because we build axes), we even can squeeze in pottery before, if we want.

Am I not saying what klarius is suggesting, or am I not understanding him? I'm saying grow London to almost pop6 asap AND THEN poprush down to pop4. ALWAYS work the 4 tiles...

Ahh, I see, sorry :blush:

@Erkon: On your worker actions, if we do your way, it's better for the poprushed worker to chop first then road rice. That way he's on the road already and can travel with the settler. And the otherworker can move to the next forest on T9, thus gaining 1 worker turn. Check that out, and prove I'm an idiot again... ;)

I think it would be even better if the rice is roaded by the existing worker:
road SW of city
chop forest NW of city
road rice (complete on T11), just in time :D

It's not that bad if the worker is trailing one turn after settler since there may be moments to catch up.

I get Erkon's settler done on T9... :confused:.

I still say the worker should mine after chopping the settler. Might as well be the worker who ends up on the chopped hill. With granary, we'll spend as many as 9-10 turns working as many as three hills. Otherwise, the poprushing doesn't pay off, in the long run anyways.

But with the 2 poprushed axes from TImbuktu, I can see where klarius is coming from. Problem is, we have so much to research. I don't see it happening very fast without Castes. What good is getting Athens so fast, if we can't work more than 2 library scientists? We need three libraries just to get to 45:science:. What am I missing here?

But with the 2 poprushed axes from TImbuktu, I can see where klarius is coming from. Problem is, we have so much to research. I don't see it happening very fast without Castes. What good is getting Athens so fast, if we can't work more than 2 library scientists? We need three libraries just to get to 45:science:. What am I missing here?

Well, you can have your confused Oracle after the axes are built. But anyway, patience, it's no use to work scientists before we hit a limit, should it be it health or happiness.

Timbuktu: whip worker (T1) (29 overflow), chop settler1 (T10), granary (T27), whip settler2 (T33), worker. Pop4@T17. Pop5@T24 => Pop3@T32. Pop4@T39. Pop5@T43. Pop6@T48. Pop7@T53. Run 3-4 scientists until Calendar. Then grow to run 6 scientists.

Worker1 roads SW of city (T3). Worker2 roads rice (T4). Worker1 chop NW of city (T8), Worker2 chop 2N of city (T9): total :hammers: = 29 + 30 + 30 + 8* 8 9 > 150 Worker2 then mine 2N (T15) and chops two forests (T21) & (T26) into granary.
How about this:

Timbuktu: whip worker (T1) (29 overflow), chop settler1 (T9), whip granary (T15>16), axeman1(partial), chop to settler2(T20 only), axeman1(partial), whip settler2 (T26>27), axeman1(T28), worker. Pop4@T14. =>Pop2@T15 (let granary fill 1 more turn). Pop3@T22. Pop4>Pop2@T26. Pop3@T30... Run 3-4 scientists until Calendar. Then grow to run 6 scientists.

Worker1 roads SW of city (T3). Worker2 chop NW of city (T7). Worker1 chop 2N of city (T9). Worker2 roads rice (T10): total :hammers: = 29 + 30 + 30 + 8*8 > 150 Worker1 then mine 2N (T14) and chops two forests (T20) & (T26) into settler (switch build from axe both times for 1 turn).

How about this:

Timbuktu: whip worker (T1) (29 overflow), chop settler1 (T9), whip granary (T15>16), axeman1(partial), chop to settler2(T20 only), axeman1(partial), whip settler2 (T26>27), axeman1(T28), worker. Pop4@T14. =>Pop2@T15 (let granary fill 1 more turn). Pop3@T22. Pop4>Pop2@T26. Pop3@T30... Run 3-4 scientists until Calendar. Then grow to run 6 scientists.

Worker1 roads SW of city (T3). Worker2 chop NW of city (T7). Worker1 chop 2N of city (T9). Worker2 roads rice (T10): total :hammers: = 29 + 30 + 30 + 8*8 > 150 Worker1 then mine 2N (T14) and chops two forests (T20) & (T26) into settler (switch build from axe both times for 1 turn).

Yep, that sounds better than what I wrote. I would prefer if we could get one more worker at the end, which I think you ignored (at T28).

I would not be surprised if my stated turns are one off sometimes, such as the first settler.

Please notice that the MM I have suggested is a proof of concept, and that it can be improved, since I try to focus on the larger schemes. ;)

Well, you can have your confused Oracle after the axes are built. But anyway, patience, it's no use to work scientists before we hit a limit, should it be it health or happiness.

Folly or not :D , I can't find a red thread in your reasoning, klarius. I presume there is one, so that worries me (that I can't see it ;) )

I can understand rushing Athens. It will take a while to collect the necessary axes, which means we will skip the Oracle. Does that mean we skip CoL as well? Do you want Libraries in most cities? Is that why you prefer Organized Religion? The 25% bonus for granary + barracks will save us ~40 hammers, which is less than a missionary :confused: There must be more in your plan that I don't get :crazyeye:

Folly or not :D , I can't find a red thread in your reasoning, klarius. I presume there is one, so that worries me (that I can't see it ;) )

I can understand rushing Athens. It will take a while to collect the necessary axes, which means we will skip the Oracle. Does that mean we skip CoL as well? Do you want Libraries in most cities? Is that why you prefer Organized Religion? The 25% bonus for granary + barracks will save us ~40 hammers, which is less than a missionary :confused: There must be more in your plan that I don't get :crazyeye:
The organized bonus applies also to wonders. And it gives nice overflow on rushing buildings (granary, lighthouse) which can be applied to the pyramids then.
And yes, I'm also for libraries.

Yep, that sounds better than what I wrote. I would prefer if we could get one more worker at the end, which I think you ignored (at T28).We definitely don't want to run short of workers this SG. I wasn't sure when you're worker was supposed to finish. My focus was our thin defenses. A later Stone City is good in that we postpone the need for another axe. You didn't slot an axe for Stone, so I assumed it was coming from London, which works at T33. I wanted a slightly earlier Stone, so I decided to build the axe in Timbuktu. It also allowed for the growth that a worker wouldn't have. I'm also considering that at any point (T10-25) you might have to poprush an axe, so just in case...

I'm thinking the London worker will have finished the mine and can join the TImbuktu worker in Stone City. Then London could build a worker before all those axes, if we want to road to the S.

I agree with your comment on global thinking. Obviously, anything beyond Gnejs' ten turns is speculation, but educated speculation is good for our long-term outlook, right?

So, which fits your elaborate MM schemes best? Whip worker on T0 or on T1? Answer quick, in 5 min it will be too late... :)

T0. I donćt see one turn later helping anything. Don't mess up the MM, Gnejs. It's not elaborate, but it is tricky. (Erkon had the 2 worker actions backwards and flipflopped, delaying the settler a turn and the hill mining a turn.

One additional note on the Timbutku chops. Instead of chopping the forest tile NW of TImbuktu, the worker might as well do one of the farther ones. Later on, when more barbs are appearing, our worker will finally chopcloser to the protecting axe. Pay attention to which worker ends on teh hill to mine it next.

You need to send some axe over to escort the settler/worker pair. No way we're escorting those two with a lousy warrior. Are you about to play! Good luck!

Plus, I think klarius figured out how to get the settler to FP City in 7-8 turns. Somehow, you'll have to set things up for Erkon to be able to do that. (the settler and worker outrun the original escort)

Are you about to play! Good luck!

Only one turn... ;)

Athens is a rather powerful city...

167132

Sparta has horses:

167133

For your continued MM plans, I managed to misclick the Timbuktu worker so it didn't start roading T0... sorry. :(

Folks, I think this calls for a change of plans. Athens comes complete with three improved food resources and stone. No more health problems if we grab it. No more problems with Alex. etc.

Athens is a rather powerful city...

rather :confused:.

Athens beats everything we have seen by length'.
W/o any investment it could run already now 5 scientists (or 4 + gold) at size 8. Lousy lighthouse and a work boat and it's about as good a scientist farm as it ever gets.
Still it can also be retooled for decent production.

Rush, rush, rush

But first retreat towards FP region and meet up there with another axe, to get his settler.

Athens is excellent and Sparta and Carthage are decent as well. I know klarius isgoing to hate me, but how about axes in London, Oracle in Timbuktu? (In other words, skip both Stone City and FP City, for now anyway.)

Details:

Looks like Alex might chooseto send his settler SW or NE. Guess we need to scout further SE to see if that's a dead end for him or not.

I think we should pillage the copper mine (looks like it's done to me). Let him have his gold but not his copper. (Archers may be equal in cities but are eaiser to kill in the open).

Btw, Gnejs, what did the TImbuktu worker do instead of roading?

Looks like Alex might chooseto send his settler SW or NE. Guess we need to scout further SE to see if that's a dead end for him or not.


I really doubt that he will go SW as it looks like tundra, while we know all the food and elephants NE. The settler will probably get a double escort, because Alex will pop-rush a double archer. I don't want to miss it and we need at least 2 better 3 axes. So I'm against scouting further SW (we couldn't get the settler anyway there, with one axe against 2 archers).

Well, I surely didn't mean a long trek SW. I was thinking 1-2 turns, but if you're fairly certain, okay. As far as missing the settler, we can just keep the axe positioned on the gold till help arrives, right? The two axes in London can move now.

Ok 1 turn but not 2. Otherwise the axe might not catch the moving settler as I think 2 archers complete in the next 2 turns.

I see what you mean. Then better pillage copper (is thata mine or not?) and move to gold, what do you think? Ithink e hasplenty of hammers without the copper mine.

Okay. Here's the 'red thread' of my logic for Oracle in TImbuktu. We now see that our production is not a limitation on this map. Limitations will be: 1) maintenance costs for cities far from our capital (unless we move it :crazyeye:) and 2) research. At the very least, we almost surely need: Sailing, IW, Maths, Masonry, Construction. Others techs also quite possible.

Red thread: Castes Systems handles both limitations at once, because we can research at 0% science.

Now, I keep asking myself, how can we leverage Timbuktu despite being far away and almost useless for military actions to the south? Of course, build something that's independent of location, like the Oracle.

Btw, Gnejs, what did the TImbuktu worker do instead of roading?

Moved NW instead of N. :blush: When I realized my mistake I moved it again instead of roading that tile for one turn. :blush: :blush:

Moved NW instead of N. :blush: When I realized my mistake I moved it again instead of roading that tile for one turn. :blush: :blush:Been there, done that. :lol:

Okay. Here's the 'red thread' of my logic for Oracle in TImbuktu. We now see that our production is not a limitation on this map. Limitations will be: 1) maintenance costs for cities far from our capital (unless we move it :crazyeye:) and 2) research. At the very least, we almost surely need: Sailing, IW, Maths, Masonry, Construction. Others techs also quite possible.

Red thread: Castes Systems handles both limitations at once, because we can research at 0% science.

Now, I keep asking myself, how can we leverage Timbuktu despite being far away and almost useless for military actions to the south? Of course, build something that's independent of location, like the Oracle.

Useless? Connect to London, one double whip and two chops gives us 3 axes in no time (around T11-T13).
London meanwhile builds an axe every 4.5 turns, giving us another 3 by turn 13-14. Thats 6 in total + 3 free that we already have. Should work against Athens if there are max 3 archers defending.

I see what you mean. Then better pillage copper (is thata mine or not?) and move to gold, what do you think? Ithink e hasplenty of hammers without the copper mine.
The copper is overgrown by forest, nothing to pillage there.

Useless? Connect to London, one double whip and two chops gives us 3 axes in no time (around T11-T13).
London meanwhile builds an axe every 4.5 turns, giving us another 3 by turn 13-14. Thats 6 in total + 3 free that we already have. Should work against Athens if there are max 3 archers defending.
Well maybe just the double whip and let the forests to the Oracle lovers after that. Workers mine a couple hills, so natural production is also a factor then.

By useless, I'm talking about the 17 tiles I counted from Timbuktu to Athens S, not its productive capabilities. From London I counted 12. So one more axe from London is already there.


I'm not against storming Athens, but let's keep everyting in perspective.

By useless, I'm talking about the 17 tiles I counted from Timbuktu to Athens S, not its productive capabilities. From London I counted 12. So one more axe from London is already there.


I'm not against storming Athens, but let's keep everyting in perspective.

Ok, lets just do two axes then. One axe can go to London and relieve a garrison there. The second replaces our promoted one at Timbuktu, letting this one go either to Hannibal or to Alex.

Excellent idea. That gains us a few moves. What are going to do with the 29:hammers: overflow? We could build another warrior to help protect Timbuktu.

Ok, change of plans then. New pre-play plan, planning to finish my turnset tonight.

London:
Build axes exclusively while working cow, copper, gold. MM growth to coincide with Rice being connected. Worker continues to road between the two rivers.

Timbuktu:
Whip overflow (29 hammers) into a warrior. Max growth, reaching size 4 in 5 turns, size 5 in 11 turns. Build a second warrior until copper connected. This warrior can later be whiped with overflow into the OracleWorkers connect Rice and river, then mines and/or pre-chops. Old worker roads SW (3t), then roads Rice (3t), then chops a forest (6t). New worker Mines wooded hill (11t). Timbuktu whips an axe as soon as copper connected, completes second and third axe using the two chops. Warrior helps fogbust between London and Timbuktu for better worker safety. Start on Oracle as soon as Priesthood is in.

Research:
Priesthood-Pottery or Pottery-Priesthood
Priesthood first lets Timbuktu switch to Oracle on T5. Pottery first avoids waste of beakers if Oracle BIDL during my turnset.

Athens:
Axe moves back to gold, pillages gold, then retreats to floodplains to team up with second axe. Why pillage gold? This reduces the chance that Alex chops the copper forest and/or roads to it. Gives his worker something else to do...

Carthage:
Warrior moves back to keep an eye on Copper and Horses at Carthago.


Comments?

Why on earth did I think we had 21 hammer overflow? LC was right the whole time...

Research:
Priesthood-Pottery or Pottery-Priesthood


I'd like Priesthood first. I didn't understand 100% why to whip the warrior on Timbutku ... but probably so many plan-reviews are causing my misundertsanding ... :D

Good luck !

I'd like Priesthood first. I didn't understand 100% why to whip the warrior on Timbutku ... but probably so many plan-reviews are causing my misundertsanding ... :D

Good luck !

A worker was whipped last turn. This turn we have 21 hammers worth of overflow that we don't really know what to do with. :)

Ok, change of plans then. New pre-play plan, planning to finish my turnset tonight.

London:
Build axes exclusively while working cow, copper, gold. MM growth to coincide with Rice being connected. Worker continues to road between the two rivers.

Timbuktu:
Whip overflow (21 hammers) into a warrior. Max growth until size 4. Workers connect Rice and river, then mines and/or pre-chops. Warrior helps fogbust between London and Timbuktu for better worker safety. Start on Oracle as soon as Priesthood is in.

Research:
Priesthood-Pottery or Pottery-Priesthood
Priesthood first lets Timbuktu switch to Oracle on T5. Pottery first avoids waste of beakers if Oracle BIDL during my turnset.

Athens:
Axe moves back to gold, pillages gold, then retreats to floodplains to team up with second axe. Why pillage gold? This reduces the chance that Alex chops the copper forest and/or roads to it. Gives his worker something else to do...

Carthage:
Warrior moves back to keep an eye on Copper and Horses at Carthago.


Comments?SOunds good.

No point in chopping TImbuktu before making mines. The mines will help the axes complete on T13 and T14. Worker1 goes back to hill :(, mines, then roads to connect river (other way around wastes a movement turn later). Worker 2 roads rice, then mines WW hill. Next worker goes to chop and mine that hill, etc. Pretty simple, actually ;) Keep maxing growth all the way to pop5.

Research Phood first. Ain't no one finishing Oracle on your watch.

SOunds good.

No point in chopping TImbuktu before making mines. The mines will help the axes complete on T13 and T14. Worker1 goes back to hill :(, mines, then roads to connect river (other way around wastes a movement turn later). Worker 2 roads rice, then mines WW hill. Next worker goes to chop and mine that hill, etc. Pretty simple, actually ;) Keep maxing growth all the way to pop5.

Research Phood first. Ain't no one finishing Oracle on your watch.

See my edits above, somewhat different from your proposal. Btw I agree on max growth.

Kill'em! Kill'em all!

Build me an army and I will dispose of the infidels!

:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:

Kill'em! Kill'em all!

Build me an army and I will dispose of the infidels!

:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:We don't trust you. You're assigned to transport duty. :lol:

I still would build the FP settler in Timbuktu according to the old plan. That's only a minor delay to the 2 axes (ok a bit more for Oracle ;)). But I still think we should settle the city and not just in 30-40 turns.
BTW this city may also be used for some chopped/rushed axes much nearer to Athens. It's connected to copper from the beginning.

See my edits above, somewhat different from your proposal. Btw I agree on max growth.Whatever. I think that delaying the mines is a big waste of hammers, just for one extra axe. And I doubt we'll get Oracle in time that way. Either we go for Oracle or we don't. If we don't let's go for FP City, not an extra axe. I think ORacle is the no brainer here. It will give us Calendar yesterday. With Calendar we can rapidly build new cities, etc. (Using London for axes and TImbuktu for Oracle is having tghe best of both worlds. We will take Athens.)

klarius has another idea. We're not going to reach consensus. It's yoru turnset.

EDIT: After we capture Athens we can REX or produce units from three directions.

EDIT: SG2, SG3, SG4, SG5 all won by the team that researched the fastest. Food for thought.

Whatever. I think that delaying the mines is a big waste of hammers, just for one extra axe. And I doubt we'll get Oracle in time that way. Either we go for Oracle or we don't. If we don't let's go for FP City, not an extra axe. I think ORacle is the no brainer here. It will give us Calendar yesterday. With Calendar we can rapidly build new cities, etc. (Using London for axes and TImbuktu for Oracle is having tghe best of both worlds. We will take Athens.)

klarius has another idea. We're not going to reach consensus. It's yoru turnset.

EDIT: After we capture Athens we can REX or produce units from three directions.

EDIT: SG2, SG3, SG4, SG5 all won by the team that researched the fastest. Food for thought.

We spend I don't know how many posts before finally getting a strategy that most of us seem to favour. Then I play one turn and we are back to square one. Aaaargh! :eek: :run: :run:

;)


I don't like building another settler while we are trying a rush since that ties up at least one unit. Maybe more considering where we would settle it, just next door to both Alex and Hannibal.
Anyway, those axes will be whipped/chopped on Erkons watch. After a 2pop whip on T11 we would be down to size 3, growing to size 4 after an additional 6 turns. By then we could work Rice+three mines for 10 hammers per turn.
In your plan, how do we balance regrowth with working the mines?

In your plan, how do we balance regrowth with working the mines?For example:

T1--10/36 :food:, pop3, work rice, bananas = +7:food:, build warrior
T2 17/36 hammers into barracks (I suppose)
T3 24/36
T4 31/36
T5 02/39 pop4, work lake +7 :food: (warrior or axe garrisons for happiness), build Oracle
T6 09/39 mine done (I think), work mine instead of lake = +6 food
T7 15/39 2nd mine done work 2nd mine instead of 1 banana = +4 food
T8 19/39
T9 23/39
T10 27/39 work 2 mines, hill forest, rice = +2
T11 29/39 Build axe
T12 31/33 pop4>2, work rice, 1 mine +4 food.

Note: Warrior needs to garrison at pop4.
Worker2 mines WW before roading rice
Poprush on T12, if copper connected T11, because we need to put hammers into axe for a turn to get FULL VALUE poprush... ;)

Hmm, we don't want more than 6 hammers into the axe before whipping. But I guess that could be solved by MMing on T11.

If I understand it right, the first axe is completed T12, second T14. Meanwhile we get 36 hammers into the Oracle. After completing the second Axe we are at size 3 and can work Rice and 2 mines for +3 food and +7 hammers.

Lets continue that line of thought. Workers chop one forest each (6t) and one common forest (4t) = 90 hammers in 10t. Meanwhile we get 63 hammers from production (one turn is spent putting hammers into a warrior), total 90+63+36 = 189. Finally, we whip the warrior on the last turn for 36+ hammers overflow. Oracle completed T24 or T25.

Ok, you have convinced me! :)

Edit: No, even better, we put hammers into the second warrior in turns 2-4.

Good point. I forgot about the 6 hammer limit for the axe. You just work less food on T9 and more on T11. I make it axes on T13 and T14, because you don't want to whip on T11 with 0/52:hammers: for the axe.

The only sad part is that we won't be founding Confucianism anywhere useful.

Except if we manage to capture Sparta before completing the Oracle. Hmm, that's definitely a possibility.

30 minutes to go before all is calm here and I get to finish my turnset. :)

The only sad part is that we won't be founding Confucianism anywhere useful.

Except if we manage to capture Sparta before completing the Oracle. Hmm, that's definitely a possibility.Yes, I forgot about that too. You could also scrap the Timbuktu axes and build the FP Settler. Just postpone Athen's destiny a little.

We also get the polluted gene pool in TImbuktu. So we could quickly examine the possibility of building more axes in TImbuktu and stopping earlier with axes in London and build the Oracle there. For example, start building the Oracle in London around T10, with 4 axes toward Athens. THen need 5 more from TImbuktu somehow. 260 :hammers:.
poprush 90 :hammers:
3 chops 90 :hammers:
7t @ 7h/t 49:hammers:
3t @ 10h/t 30:hammers: (just a guess how fast we get back to pop4)
T21 = 5 axes

But then we wouldn't work Oracle in TImbuktu during your turnset and we ought to go Pottery>P'hood. (just when you thought we'd figured it all out, right?)

If TImbuktu goes Settler first and we build Oracle somewhere, then the workers we capture from Alex or Hannibal will boom FP CIty through the roof. Or we could add klarius' thought of using FP City to chop (or even poprush) axes. So much closer to the action.

Postponing the Oracle 21 turns? Who is this impostor and where is the real LC? :lol:

If TImbuktu goes Settler first and we build Oracle somewhere, then the workers we capture from Alex or Hannibal will boom FP CIty through the roof. Or we could add klarius' thought of using FP City to chop (or even poprush) axes. So much closer to the action.

Isn't it safer to do it the other way around? Capture Athens first and then settle FP city. As you say, if we have a bunch of workers to use we can grow much faster, so little time lost.

I concur on building a bunch of axes in Timbuktu and London. Then build the Oracle in Timbuktu, and pump out more units/settlers from Timbuktu and ignore it as a GP farm then. There are plenty of potential GP farms on the map.

And we can for sure grab Sparta before T25 with the first axes, else they will be idle. Good for XP and they have time to heal. Does Sparta have to exit resistance to be able to found Confucianism?

A bunch of warriors is not bad, since we need to scout the coast before sending out work boats. As soon as we get Carthago, we can ship a galley, yes? If we're still in Slavery...

Postponing the Oracle 21 turns? Who is this impostor and where is the real LC? :lol:How do you figure 21 turns? SHouldn't be that long. We would mine the hill aftrer roading, then chop. That means the mine is working on T19.
~9t @ 11h/t = 99h
chop = 30h
7t @ 14 = 98h
T27 Oracle done.

Isn't it safer to do it the other way around? Capture Athens first and then settle FP city. As you say, if we have a bunch of workers to use we can grow much faster, so little time lost.Definitely safer. Let the spirit move you.

And we can for sure grab Sparta before T25 with the first axes, else they will be idle. Good for XP and they have time to heal. Does Sparta have to exit resistance to be able to found Confucianism?

It doesn't have to come out of resistance. But Sparta is a PITA for maintenance. And we might also lose an axe or two.


A bunch of warriors is not bad, since we need to scout the coast before sending out work boats. As soon as we get Carthago, we can ship a galley, yes? If we're still in Slavery...
. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . about warriors scouting coastline. Get the warriors back to around the cities to intercept barbs. We already know at least one island. We need a boat to know what's there. And not from steenkin' Carthago, which we cannot afford for quite some time.

BTW, barbs, with us not having archery, it might happen that barb axes turn up about the same time as archers (even before is possible). And that's not in the far future :eek:.

I think the W warrior, at least, should explore W, becausethere might be GLoryLand there and we want to know that if it is. It might even sight another continent.

It doesn't have to come out of resistance. But Sparta is a PITA for maintenance. And we might also lose an axe or two.


. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . about warriors scouting coastline. Get the warriors back to around the cities to intercept barbs. We already know at least one island. We need a boat to know what's there. And not from steenkin' Carthago, which we cannot afford for quite some time.

BTW, barbs, with us not having archery, it might happen that barb axes turn up about the same time as archers (even before is possible). And that's not in the far future :eek:.

Ahh, but Sir, we would afford both Sparta and Carthago running caste and representation :sarcasm:

And barb axes can be handled by chariots, yes? Now, where's the most convenient source for horses? :satan:

I think the W warrior, at least, should explore W, becausethere might be GLoryLand there and we want to know that if it is. It might even sight another continent.

LC's Shangri-La:

167159

And barb axes can be handled by chariots, yes? Now, where's the most convenient source for horses? :satan:
North of FP city by a city on the river connecting it to the whole empire ? :lol:

Gnejs: Save that barb for our axe to gain XP on. EDIT: No more need ot make thatwarrior in London.

Sparta: Our unpromoted axe loses with 70% odds. Our combatI promoted axe wins with 60%.

@Gnejs,
don't kill our friendly neighborhood barb warrior (if it isn't too late already). He will just be replaced by something worse. And he serves as an indicator when barbs are ready to enter our culture.

@Gnejs,
don't kill our friendly neighborhood barb warrior (if it isn't too late already). He will just be replaced by something worse. And he serves as an indicator when barbs are ready to enter our culture.Now if that isn't fking brilliant. So for thetime being, it might pay to kill only barb archers, with the 50% chance of spawning more warriors!!!

@klarius: Since barbs evidently don't need copper to spawn axemen, do they need horses connected to a city to spawn chariots?

Done, save uploaded. Some highlights:


LC's Shangri-la has fish and is an excellent GP farm
There is land to the north of our continent
There is land across the water to the east of Timbuktu
Caught Alex' Settler in the open :)
Connected our cities, mined 2 hills at Timbuktu
Barb warrior attacked our warrior. This was anyway good since it allowed us to have a look at the view from the end of the peninsula
Only barb warriors seen so far, I have used one to get XP for an axe. A couple have suicided themselves on our axes
The warrior has left Sparta and is otw Athens. Alex might have a single Archer in Sparta...


Here is your Session Turn Log from 1960 BC to 1660 BC:

Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have trained a Worker in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 69, 1930 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Axeman (11.50)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 72, 1840 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.10)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Combat Odds: 9.1%
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (Animal Combat: +30%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.90)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: London's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 76, 1720 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Scout (1.35)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 76, 1720 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Scout!
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Scout!
Turn 76, 1720 BC: The borders of London have expanded!

Turn 77, 1690 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (3.00)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: London will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 77, 1690 BC: London will become unhealthy on the next turn

Turn 78, 1660 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.06) vs Alexander's Archer (3.00)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 95.0%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (77/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (62/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: You have captured a Worker

Supercool! We arleady have another free worker! Well done, maestro! I'll let Erkon rib you about all your blunders.

Good work with Alex' worker :goodjob:

EDIT: I like our culture graph. At least we did something the other teams did not! Now, will they think we did something clever, or just think we're fools? :confused: :lol:

Goddamit! There's coast W-NW of London! :eek: Get a settler on the spice, and found Confucianism with CoL, and forget about Astronomy!!!

Goddamit! There's coast W-NW of London! :eek: Get a settler on the spice, and found Confucianism with CoL, and forget about Astronomy!!!

Hmmm, I looked for waves but couldn't see any. But there is something suspicius about the tiles SW of the spice. :eek:

Take a lok at all the possibilities for Big and Small maps and they're full of island possibilities. Some connect everyhwere by galleys, others not.

Goddamit! There's coast W-NW of London! :eek: Get a settler on the spice, and found Confucianism with CoL, and forget about Astronomy!!!
That may be a 1-tile island leading to nowhere or the access to the world. Anyway. Get Athens first. If it is for research or top notch coastal producer, doesn't matter. We need it!

BTW, the warrior NW of London should definitely do the step north. There are also some suspicious looking tiles.

Edit:
Another thing:
There's no need that all axes from London go SE.
S, SW then SE isn't slower and lights some more tiles.

That may be a 1-tile island leading to nowhere or the access to the world. Anyway. Get Athens first. If it is for research or top notch coastal producer, doesn't matter. We need it!

BTW, the warrior NW of London should definitely do the step north. There are also some suspicious looking tiles.

How about settling SE of the spice the turn before we complete the Oracle? Chop a workboat first thing, chop/whip a galley for getting a worker to the cow and for exploration.

Athens ..!

Edit:
We can get cities and culture expansion anytime later. All this stuff is currently only guesses.
Get Athens, get some boats and proper exploration, then we talk about culture bridge cities, maybe with organized missionaries ;).

Another thing:
There's no need that all axes from London go SE.
S, SW then SE isn't slower and lights some more tiles.Plus, let's not forget we want an axeman at Hannibal for worker stealing and especially to keep him in the Stone Age. Don't need him sneak attacking us.

Athens ..!Athens ..! Pyramids ..!

Athens ..! Pyramids ..!

Athens ..! Pyramids ..! Eight forests to chop ..!

Plus, let's not forget we want an axeman at Hannibal for worker stealing and especially to keep him in the Stone Age. Don't need him sneak attacking us.
I see no need for that. He is still in the building phase. So no sneak attack by more than one archer.
Worker stealing is nice, but
Athens :ar15::ar15::ar15:

Another interesting observation:

The total world population is 39 (Victory conditions/resolutions)
We have 7 pop
Info screen/Top5 shows 27 pop in the five remaining capitals
Sparta is pop 1

This leave 4 pop unaccounted for...

Jet lag. Can't sleep, thinking about wasting Athens on the Pyramids. We want Athens to turbocharge our victory. But Pyramids will be great for research and then later for military unit production and possible war weariness. So what if we use that new worker to road froim Athen's NE border toward FP City river (4 roads (14t) will speed up axes 1-2t anyway). Then connect Athens when we take it. Then we build the Pyramids in...ex-Stone Pyramid City! The Timbuktu workers won't have much to do about then (~T20, using new T-times :lol:), but they'll need to be there a little while later to plantate the bananas (~T40). That leaves Athens free to ROCK AND ROLL and we don't have settlers getting blisters on their feet. We pick a nice site (with or without the stone) that will later produce lots of catapults or whatever.

For the record. Coast at NW across the ocean.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/68003/land.jpg

Jet lag. Can't sleep, thinking about wasting Athens on the Pyramids. We want Athens to turbocharge our victory. But Pyramids will be great for research and then later for military unit production and possible war weariness. So what if we use that new worker to road froim Athen's NE border toward FP City river (4 roads (14t) will speed up axes 1-2t anyway). Then connect Athens when we take it. Then we build the Pyramids in...ex-Stone Pyramid City! The Timbuktu workers won't have much to do about then (~T20, using new T-times :lol:), but they'll need to be there a little while later to plantate the bananas (~T40). That leaves Athens free to ROCK AND ROLL and we don't have settlers getting blisters on their feet. We pick a nice site (with or without the stone) that will later produce lots of catapults or whatever.

In principle, we can get away with as little as 4 turns worth of production invested in the Pyramids in Athens. Two workers chopping 4 forests each in parallel gives 720 hammers post-Maths...

Another coastal city would probably be of more long-term use than Stone city, especially if it on the N or NE coast.

Another interesting observation:

The total world population is 39 (Victory conditions/resolutions)
We have 7 pop
Info screen/Top5 shows 27 pop in the five remaining capitals
Sparta is pop 1

This leave 4 pop unaccounted for...That would mean 12 cities at most in the world. The barbs won't attack 2 tiles deep until there are 18, right? As long as we don't kill off Alex, that is...

For the record. Coast at NW across the ocean.
Accessible without cultural expansion.

That would mean 12 cities at most in the world. The barbs won't attack 2 tiles deep until there are 18, right? As long as we don't kill off Alex, that is...

No. 2 cities per civ for deep barb attacks. 3 cities for barb cities to appear.
Remembered wrong. It's in fact 3 for barb attacks. 2 for cities.
Accessible without cultural expansion.
No. The tile we see is ocean, but it has to be next to coast because it has production.

Checked some old WOTM replays...

Feudalism dates
WOTM 5: Prince
theREALone's game
Wang Kon 325 AD
Saladin 920 AD
Asoka 920 AD
Huyana Capac 1030 AD

Looks like we should expect something around 800 AD...In one of my GOTMs, France used Oracle for Feudalism pre-500AD and had instant LBMs. Do you suppose that was Wang's tirck? I always viewed getting the Oracle as having the the hidden benefit of preventing an AI from free-teching.
I just spent the past week with a lot of beautiful women and now I feel great. :mischief: I'm concerned that Murky hasn't posted since this. Do you suppose he's having 'withdrawal' symptoms? ;)

Lets continue that line of thought. Workers chop one forest each (6t) and one common forest (4t) = 90 hammers in 10t. Meanwhile we get 63 hammers from production (one turn is spent putting hammers into a warrior), total 90+63+36 = 189. Finally, we whip the warrior on the last turn for 36+ hammers overflow. Oracle completed T24 or T25.


36hammer overflow from a warrior? Is that possible? In Vanilla they go to waste, I think in Warlords part of it is converted into gold.

When we get Athens, first build MUST be a exploring WB. Second build should be another exploring WB. Third build could be a Galley if we choose Sailing from Oracle:lol: ... you get the idea.

Maintenance is going to be a serious problem until we capture Athens. We at -9 right now. Can run 50% research at best when our reserves run dry. The fog-busting warrior might as well come home and guard the rice road. The NW warrior should de-fog that coastal area and then return home. The E warrior sould finish de-fogging and go to Timbuktu. Should we even send those 2 axes down south before more axes are ready? Should we time them so that 6 axes (for 2 archers) arrive at Athens at the same time?

We could also gamble and try to take Athens (against 3 archers) with 6 axes and 3 or 4 warriors

@klarius: Since barbs evidently don't need copper to spawn axemen, do they need horses connected to a city to spawn chariots?
Barbs can neither build nor spawn chariots. That would be a bit tough if they could (as they would probably have TW already around the time they start spawning).
They never need a resource to spawn (axes, swords, maces, horse archers). But they need it to build them in their cities.
Hey the time we were teamed with the barbs isn't that long ago. Already forgotten ? :lol:

36hammer overflow from a warrior? Is that possible? In Vanilla they go to waste, I think in Warlords part of it is converted into gold.

When we get Athens, first build MUST be a exploring WB. Second build should be another exploring WB. Third build could be a Galley if we choose Sailing from Oracle:lol: ... you get the idea.

Don't take Gnejs' MM too serious. Misclicked worker? Ohmygod.... ;)

I agree that we need to find out asap if we need Astronomy. It may take a while for the WB to sail up the west coast, and may not be very rewarding. I think it's better to crank out a galley first and send it towards Carthago. Which means we need Sailing before Writing :(

LC, I presume that the upcoming turn set may/will involve advanced MM, and given the track record, perhaps it's more suitable if you execute? I am willing to either swap or skip my turn set if the MM get's too complicated.

...
I'm concerned that Murky hasn't posted since this. Do you suppose he's having 'withdrawal' symptoms? ;)

Murky is busy working, and does not have time to contribute to our discussion. I don't know when/if he'll get back:confused:

Murky is busy working, and does not have time to contribute to our discussion. I don't know when/if he'll get back:confused:

I've been reading the thread some. It looks like you guys have a pretty good handle on things at this point. No sense in cluttering up the thread with useless posts. :lol:

@LC Yes, I do have some withdrawal symptoms. I went out last night and did a bit of dancing to try to curb my cravings. :D

Barbs can neither build nor spawn chariots. That would be a bit tough if they could (as they would probably have TW already around the time they start spawning).
They never need a resource to spawn (axes, swords, maces, horse archers). But they need it to build them in their cities.
Hey the time we were teamed with the barbs isn't that long ago. Already forgotten ? :lol:Thanks. Not forgotten more than normal for my age...:blush:. Actually, I never understood that chariots can't spawn and I guess needing stone to build Stonehenge confused me about needing resources to spawn or not.
LC, I presume that the upcoming turn set may/will involve advanced MM, and given the track record, perhaps it's more suitable if you execute? I am willing to either swap or skip my turn set if the MM get's too complicated.Uh huh. Most boring turnset of the whole game and you want to pawn it off on me. T0 move axe. T1 move axe. T2 move axe...Isn't that what I did last turnset? Guess I am pretty good at it... :lol:

LC, I presume that the upcoming turn set may/will involve advanced MM, and given the track record, perhaps it's more suitable if you execute? I am willing to either swap or skip my turn set if the MM get's too complicated.

buuuaaaaahhhh puuuaaahhhh puuuaaaahhh cluck cluck cluck <insert favourite chicken sound here>
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Notes on Erkon's or my turnset:

1. Setting klarius up for the kill.
I figure we need to involve our vagrant warriors if we want to capture Athens before we research astronomy. That includes the E warrior, the fog-busting warrior, and the Hannibal warrior. We can accumulate the following S of Athens (correct me if I'm wrong).

T14: 6 axes, 2 warriors
T16: 7 axes, 3 warriors
T17: 8 axes, 3 warriors

On T14, we're able to capture given only 2 archers. T16 oughta wanna go with 3 archers. T17 should be a sure thing, if Alex isn't stockpiling.

2. Timbuktu and the Oracle
I think the fastest Oracle is chopping and poprushing an axe at the end. I didn't calculate this, because I'd rather poprush a settler or granary.

T16-T18 (1180-1120BC): complete Oracle by simply chopping the 4 N forests and MMing appropriately (that is, if we want to slow it down at the end).
T19 (1090bc), if we mine the third hill before the 4th chop.

Some choices:
0. We can choose to not worry about where Confucianism is founded.
1. We can play with fire and risk finishing the Oracle one turn after capturing Athens.
2. We can poprush a settler in London on T14 and settler Pyramid City (2S of SE horses) on T17, after capturing Athens.

Notes on Erkon's or my turnset:

1. Setting klarius up for the kill.
I figure we need to involve our vagrant warriors if we want to capture Athens before we research astronomy. That includes the E warrior, the fog-busting warrior, and the Hannibal warrior. We can accumulate the following S of Athens (correct me if I'm wrong).

T14: 6 axes, 2 warriors
T16: 7 axes, 3 warriors
T17: 8 axes, 3 warriors

On T14, we're able to capture given only 2 archers. T16 oughta wanna go with 3 archers. T17 should be a sure thing, if Alex isn't stockpiling.

2. Timbuktu and the Oracle
I think the fastest Oracle is chopping and poprushing an axe at the end. I didn't calculate this, because I'd rather poprush a settler or granary.

T16-T18 (1180-1120BC): complete Oracle by simply chopping the 4 N forests and MMing appropriately (that is, if we want to slow it down at the end).
T19 (1090bc), if we mine the third hill before the 4th chop.

Some choices:
0. We can choose to not worry about where Confucianism is founded.
1. We can play with fire and risk finishing the Oracle one turn after capturing Athens.
2. We can poprush a settler in London on T14 and settler Pyramid City (2S of SE horses) on T17, after capturing Athens.

Note sure if this showed in the save, but Alex now has a barracks in Athens. Expect CD1 archers defending, and probably walls as well.

As for promotions on our units, it doesn't seem to be much difference between combat and city raider against a full HP defender. I assume (haven't checked) that combat is better against an injured defender.

@klarius: If our settler worker is alone, roading or chopping a tile within Alex' borders, 2 tiles from his center, what impact does this have on his builds and behavior?

Note sure if this showed in the save, but Alex now has a barracks in Athens. Expect CD1 archers defending, and probably walls as well. I figure that makes it:
25% fortify bonus
50% city defense
25% hill defense
25% on a hill
50% walls
20% CDI
+1 first strike

195%, 8.85 modified strength.

Did I forget anything?

That only gives our 3rd, unpromoted axe a 70% chance of victory. BUt I doubt he'll have more than 2 of those CDI defenders unless we're unlucky.

I figure that makes it:
25% fortify bonus
50% city defense
25% hill defense
25% on a hill
50% walls
20% CDI
+1 first strike

195%, 8.85 modified strength.

Did I forget anything?

+50% if we attack from the gold (crossing river)
This could be an option - attack one turn sooner, face one less whipped archer.

+50% if we attack from the gold (crossing river)
This could be an option - attack one turn sooner, face one less whipped archer.That gives our 3rd axe a 49.7 chance of winning...:(

That reminds me, though, I suppose an important detail to observe each turn is Athens' population.

...
Uh huh. Most boring turnset of the whole game and you want to pawn it off on me. T0 move axe. T1 move axe. T2 move axe...Isn't that what I did last turnset? Guess I am pretty good at it... :lol:

All right, if it's not more complicated than that, I'll grab it! And probably grab Athens on T17 :D

That gives our 3rd axe a 49.7 chance of winning...:(

That reminds me, though, I suppose an important detail to observe each turn is Athens' population.

Don't forget the promotions on our units. We have three level 3 axes that we can use in the second or third wave to improve our odds. Also, a couple of the unpromoted axes have 1 XP and have a chance to gain a promotion from a barb encounter.

I normally attack with the guy with most % chance. Is there any reason to attack with any other unit, such as unpromoted axe?

@klarius: If our settler worker is alone, roading or chopping a tile within Alex' borders, 2 tiles from his center, what impact does this have on his builds and behavior?
None for builds. Attackers if not already assigned to a settler will hunt it.

Is it safe to assume that Athens is now building another settler? Which means that we should try to sneak in our army while the settler + escort is leaving Athens?

I normally attack with the guy with most % chance. Is there any reason to attack with any other unit, such as unpromoted axe?I like to compare the odds of the 2. If the stronger guy has almost the same infinitesmal odds, I go with the unpromoted. In this case, you have

axe (5) vs. 8.85 archer: 1.98% chance, 73.3 XP remaining on average.
axe (5.5, -25% for arch) vs. 8.1 archer: 7.7% chance, 59.13 XP remaining
axe (6) vs. 8.85 archer: 7.7% chance, 59.17 XP remaining

I don't know how to use the calculator to calculate odds with damaged archers.

I don't know how to use the calculator to calculate odds with damaged archers.

I guess you are using this calculator: http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm

As I understand it, you enter the HP for the defender in the appropriate place and multiply the modified strength with HP/100. But I guess a simple WB test would confirm if this is indeed correct (hint, hint).

Is it safe to assume that Athens is now building another settler? Which means that we should try to sneak in our army while the settler + escort is leaving Athens?
The reason why Alex built a settler in the first place hasn't changed, so he should build another. :)
But not necessarily in Athens :eek:.

The reason why Alex built a settler in the first place hasn't changed, so he should build another. :)
But not necessarily in Athens :eek:.

What is the reason for his warrior to leave Sparta and walk towards Athens? Has he completed a second archer in Sparta already? Seems unlikely...

What is the reason for his warrior to leave Sparta and walk towards Athens? Has he completed a second archer in Sparta already? Seems unlikely...
Why is this unlikely. Looks to me like Sparta has to work a plains forest currently.

If I'm using the calculator correctly (Gnejs promised to check it on WB):

For each scenario, attacking first with unpromoted or promoted axe against CDI archer, there are two most likely possibilities, namely the number of strikes against the archer. The axe causes 15hps (hit points) damage per strike, the likelihood of strikes falls between 1 and 2 and is very close to 2. So the axe is most likely to cause 30hps and there is a greater likelihood of causing 15 than 45 (3 strikes). The promoted axe (CII or CI + archery are about the same) causes 16hps per strike and the strike likelihood falls a bit closer to 3 strikes than 2, so the promoted axe is slightly more likely to cause 48 than 32 hps (EDIT: but we should only count on 2 strikes, of course). Results of the second axe attacking after the first one dies:

CII-axe after axe:
If 15hps damage, then 30% chance of victory.
If 30hps, then 41% chance of victory.

Axe after CII-axe:
If 32hps, then 32% chance of victory.
If 48hps, then 61.6% chance of victory.

Looks like it's better to attack first with the promoted axe. CII or CI + archery promotions seem to have about the same effect. Furthermore, the odds are slightly in our favor that against 2 of Alex's CDI archers, at least one will suffer 48hps damage!

Got it.....

Pre-Play-Plan for Erkon's turn set

Summary: Writing complete T17, Oracle complete T17, Athens fall T16

Observe each turn is Athens' population.
Promotions on our units as suitable
Complete Writing in T17

Warrior NW of London moves 1N then garrisons London.
Warrior N of Timbuktu moves to garrison Timbuktu (de-fog N of those 2 gold mines).
All existing axes moves towards Athens to arrive at T15

London worker will road SE of rice (done T4), then mine N-hill and other clever stuff.

London: London build axe without whipping, completed on T3, then another axe, then another axe for Carthago.

Timbuktu workers chop four forests (done T6 & T12), then chop more forest if no barbs are close or road a bit

Timbuktu:
In Timbuktu we want to accumulate to exactly 36f, so that next turn we can work both mines at pop2 (after poprush) and still grow to pop3. then we keep working both mines.
T0 work rice, bananas, bananas, mine = +6f, +4h; build axe1(0/52h)
T1 poprush 4>2, work both mines = 0f, +7h + 90h (rush); build axe1(4/52h)
T2 work rice, mine, mine = +3f, +7h + 49h (overflow); axe1 done, build axe2(0/52h)
T3 = + 7h + 4h (overflow); axe3 done, build Oracle (17/225h)

This finishes axe1 T2, axe2, T3, Oracle T16. To delay the Oracle, on T15, I stop working both mines. The same turn as I/LC have captured Athens, then work both mines again to ensure the completion of the Oracle during the interturn.

Border expansion on T14.

Oracle
T0 = 17:hammers:
T6 = 17 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 60 (from chop) = 98
T12 = 91 + 6*7 + 60 (from chop) = 200
T16 = 225 :hammers:, Oracle completed

Note: Try to learn Writing the same turn Oracle completes. Try to capture Athens one turn earlier.

EDIT:
Worker south roads three plains and wheat to speed up axe movement two turns.
Warrior SE of Timbuktu moves to Athens
Warrior between London and Timbuktu moves to Athens
Promote south axe with combat and move 1SE :mwaha: :evil: :trouble: heal :cry:
Hannibal warrior moves to copper, then to Athens

Athens army composition and timing
T14 7 axes, 2 warriors S of Athens
T15 8 axes, 2 warriors
T16 8 axes, 3 warriors

If I'm using the calculator correctly (Gnejs promised to check it on WB):

I did nothing of the kind, you lazy little...
Confirmed in WB.

Clever idea to whip the London axe to take Athens on T16 to put Confucianism there. We need to grow Athens' borders rapidly and we don't want to switch to Representation Castes yet. The problem is that London's growth is neutered at pop3. At pop4, London can grow. Hmm...Maybe it's better to risk completing Oracle on T18, if we don't get an opportunity to take Athens with 6 or 7 axes earlier?

Pre-Play-Plan for Erkon's turn set

Summary: Writing complete T17, Oracle complete T17, Athens fall T16


Hey! Aren't you supposed to play 15 turns only? ;)

At T15, there will be 3 warriors and 8 axes next to Athens. All but a few 1S of Gold.

Lets assume 3 combat II axes in the first wave, and the rest being unpromoted.

First wave:
Combat II vs. CG1 archer leaves the defender with, on average, 59 HP left.

Second wave:
Axe vs CG1 archer at 59 HP has 54% chance to win. If loss, then archer has 29 HP left on average

Third wave:
Axe vs CG1 archer at 29HP over river has 95% chance to win.
3xWarrior vs CG1 archer at 29 HP over river has 91% chance to win.

Sounds reasonable, I guess. A fourth defender would be very bad. :(



Edit: In other words, 8 axes+3 warriors is a sure win against three archers. We lose all three axes in the first wave, 1-2 axes in the second wave and no units in the third wave, leaving us with 3-4 axes and 3 warriors when the dust settles.

Against 4 archers, we lose 4 axes in the first wave, 2-3 axes in the second wave (killing 1-2 archers). Unfortunately a third wave consisting of three warriors against 2-3 wounded archers looks like poor odds.

Where exactly is the border of the zone that triggers Alex' War_Panic mode? Is it possible for the southern worker to road so that our stack can move two tile past that border?

Answer: Two tiles away from city. this is inside Athens culture so a road won't help.

Edit: Checked it myself. Erkon, great idea with klarius korner, makes it much much easier to find this stuff.

One final thing. The London worker can run some tiles southward and then road a tile or two. We might be able to gain another turn for our axes. We would also have two workers at Athens that can start chopping (if we manage to capture it...)

T0 move axe. T1 move axe. T2 move axe...Okay, so I lied. :D

MM suggestions:
In Timbuktu we want to accumulate to exactly 36f, so that next turn we can work both mines at pop2 (after poprush) and still grow to pop3. then we keep working both mines.
T0 work rice, bananas, bananas, mine = +6f, +4h; build axe1(0/52h)
T1 poprush 4>2, work both mines = 0f, +7h + 90h (chop); build axe1(4/52h)
T2 work rice, mine, mine = +3f, +7h + 49h (overflow); axe1 done, build axe2(0/52h)
T3 = + 7h + 4h (overflow); axe3 done, build Oracle (17/225h)

This finishes axe1 T2, axe2, T3, Oracle T16. To delay the Oracle, on T15, you stop working both mines. The same turn as you have captured Athens, you then work both mines again to ensure the completion of the Oracle during the interturn.

I tried to worldbuild our western peninsula with the ocean tile with 1:food:+1:commerce:

The ocean tile will only produce if there is coast to the north (A) or west (B)of the ocean tile. This can be an island of course.

If we settle on the spice, we get the cultural bridge at 15 culture. If we settler 1SE of the spice, we need 750 culture to bridge the gap.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/68003/coast.jpg

Worker south roads three plains and wheat to speed up axe movement two turns.

Promote south axe with combat and more 1SE :mwaha: :evil: :trouble:

I don't get your roading plans. Here's a map from before:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=166974&d=1199385003

I'm thinking we want the road to serve units coming from both TImbuktu and London, right? Furthermore, there isn't time for 4 roads before those units are all over your butt. So we can save 1 turn. I was thinking like this, if we road first the desert N of the worker (this connects to the river), then SW, SW, we have done our best for now, plus the worker can then go SW into Alex's land, possibly drawing out a non-defender, non-settler hunting unit (see klarius' answer to my question above). We also are within two tiles of having Athens connected to London...

EDIT: On the axe. Do you mean SW? That would give you one more turn to heal, wouldn't it?

One final thing. The London worker can run some tiles southward and then road a tile or two. We might be able to gain another turn for our axes. We would also have two workers at Athens that can start chopping (if we manage to capture it...)1. We can gain 1t for ourLondon axes simply by roading the tile S of London.
2. Athens contains a second worker.

1.Warrior N of Timbuktu moves to garrison Timbuktu.

2. London worker chops forest, then what?

3. London: Whip axe next turn (complete T2), overflow (30:hammers:) into another axe (T4) (for active defense). Keep working the cow, copper and gold. Build granary (T10). Then what?

4. Timbuktu workers chop four forests, then what?1. I hope the N Warrior will finally de-fog N of those 2 gold mines... ;)
2. and 3. London worker could road London S to gain axes 1t. Also need to mine that hill finally. I'd even mine it before the forest if we decide not to poprush, WHICH I REALLY DISLIKE, and I hope klarius will chime in, because he's already siada couple times, no poprushing in London before pop7 or something like that. (Erkon, take 18 turns on your turnset if you like... ;))
4. I forget when the borders expand again, but I'd like to chop those 2 extra N forests into a settler. So mine the hill or chop, if it's not too soon for border expansion.

I don't get your roading plans. Here's a map from before:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=166974&d=1199385003

I'm thinking we want the road to serve units coming from both TImbuktu and London, right? Furthermore, there isn't time for 4 roads before those units are all over your butt. So we can save 1 turn. I was thinking like this, if we road first the desert N of the worker (this connects to the river), then SW, SW, we have done our best for now, plus the worker can then go SW into Alex's land, possibly drawing out a non-defender, non-settler hunting unit (see klarius' answer to my question above). We also are within two tiles of having Athens connected to London...

EDIT: On the axe. Do you mean SW? That would give you one more turn to heal, wouldn't it?

Crappy map :mischief:

Yep, road serves both London and Timbuktu, yep it can be done on time, yep it saves two turns. Please check attached map :D

Regarding axe: no, I mean SE. That will ensure capture, even if warrior goes into forest. The combat promotion will heal the axe enough to survive, then we get another promotion :D

Crappy map :mischief:

Yep, road serves both London, yep it can be done on time, yep it saves two turns. Please check attached map :D

Regarding axe: no, I mean SE. That will ensure capture, even if warrior goes into forest. The combat promotion will heal the axe enough to survive, then we get another promotion :DBULLcrappy map. :p

You're a genius, Erkon. :goodjob: You can tell Gnejs I said so.

You know what that means, don't you? NO POPRUSHING THE AXE IN LONDON.You don't need to. Your T3 London axe just arrived at Athens S on T15.

Just don't forget to defog Mitiu's cross with an earlier axe AND don't forget to defog the W coast too.

One final thing. The London worker can run some tiles southward and then road a tile or two. We might be able to gain another turn for our axes. We would also have two workers at Athens that can start chopping (if we manage to capture it...)

Genius! Worker will road SE of rice (done T4), London build axe without whipping, completed on T3 and moves to gold. Move to rice on T4, then uses the road to save one turn on T5 :goodjob:

These roads will save 3 turns, which is enough to avoid whipping London :bounce:

I tried to worldbuild our western peninsula with the ocean tile with 1:food:+1:commerce:

The ocean tile will only produce if there is coast to the north (A) or west (B)of the ocean tile. This can be an island of course.

If we settle on the spice, we get the cultural bridge at 15 culture. If we settler 1SE of the spice, we need 750 culture to bridge the gap.This is very interesting, Erkon. Because settling SE is so much better otherwise, maybe we should simply consider settling this city later than other equally good cities (we can pop the first borders at NW any time with Castes). Hopefully our wb or galley explorations will tell us in good time whatto do.

FYI: I am updating my Pre-Play-Plan with all the ideas that pop up. I just cleaned it up, so the history is gone.

Pre-Play-Plan for Erkon's turn set

1. London worker will road SE of rice (done T4), then what? Mine N-hill? Chop forest?

2. London: London build axe without whipping, completed on T3. Then what? Another axe? Granary? Settler?

3. Timbuktu workers chop four forests (done T6 & T12). Then what? Chop more forest if no barbs are close? Road a bit?

1. At pop4 the mine may prove useful, we prevent jungle creep and who knows, you might discover SILVER!
2. Definitely build an axe in London (hello?). Planning to defend London with a warrior? It will be done in 4 turns if you switch to the forest for 1 turn (1 :hammer:). (I told you lied about the MM... :king:)
3. Yes, chop. Let's turbocharge! Build a Pyramid City settler!!! We can have it done a couple turns after the Oracle. BUild it 2S of the SE horses and Athens is free to DOMINATE the world.
4.

FYI: I am updating my Pre-Play-Plan with all the ideas that pop up. I just cleaned it up, so the history is gone.This is a blast. Cool synergy, isn't it? I love the way you solved the London axe. I now make it:

T14 7 axes, 2 warriors S of Athens
T15 8 axes, 2 warriors
T16 8 axes, 3 warriors

Is that what you reckon?

Plus, on T13 yoiu can start tempting Alex with that worker. If he doesn't bite, you just road. (But I don't think you want to attack the archer in the forest--odds not good enough. You can move N, then NW and Alex can still see you, and maybe chaseafter, I don't know.) The worker also allows you to see inside Athens without antagonizing Alex.

@Gnejs: I've been meaning to ask you. Where did you sentry the axe to capture Alex's settler? Or were you kindof lucky that he darted past one axe and ran into another?

This is a blast. Cool synergy, isn't it? I love the way you solved the London axe. I now make it:

T14 7 axes, 2 warriors S of Athens
T15 8 axes, 2 warriors
T16 8 axes, 3 warriors

Is that what you reckon?

Plus, on T13 yoiu can start tempting Alex with that worker. If he doesn't bite, you just road. (But I don't think you want to attack the archer in the forest--odds not good enough.)

Great thinking on this turnset, LC and Erkon. :goodjob:

Personally I wouldn't wait for that last warrior, and even the last axe may be questionable if odds are good on T14.

@Gnejs: I've been meaning to ask you. Where did you sentry the axe to capture Alex's settler? Or were you kindof lucky that he darted past one axe and ran into another?

I had axe #1 waiting on the gold hill, axe #2 healing from a barb encounter in forest N-N-NE of gold. Alex moves the settler with 2 archers as escort to the tile W of the gold. I attack and win from the hill, while second axe moves SW to floodplain. Next turn Alex units continues NE to tile N of gold. Across river from Gold axe, but second axe can strike instead. :)

Wow! That was some timing!

So klarius was right about where the settler would go and about the 2 escorts.

Wow! That was some timing!

So klarius was right about where the settler would go and about the 2 escorts.

klarius is always right. :bowdown:

Nice discussion going on and since it seems there is no pop-rush in London anymore no need to rant (about lost opportunities to gain more food for little invested hammers).

Let's hope we get a nice timing. The problem is that the best time would probably be not when the next (or second next) settler comes out of the culture, but just when it completes and we don't know when this is.

And, BTW, no I'm not always right.
But Alex has settled Sparta already, which is from food and resources worse than the FP/elephant region. It's nearer and coastal so that is probably the reason. If there would be some wonder site in the SW he would have settled this before. Now that Sparta is there, the FP region is nearer (the plot distance to the next city is what counts not the capital).
Settlers really like an escort of one city defense and one attacker (that should have been 2 different archers ;)). With Athens' production this desire is easy to match. If the warrior really goes back to Athens the next settler might come with the city defense (his first) warrior and an attack archer :D.

Edit:
When our axes in the gold hill region are healed up and others are coming up, I would recommend that these 2 go to 3 south of Athens. That will break his settler build for the time the axes move through (should be resumed after), but otherwise his worker(s) might chop some of our precious trees (it's warlords - much more chopping).

klarius, my plan is to use one of the gold-hill-axes to cover the worker that is roading, and the other to kill that warrior. Are you saying that it would be more clever to let that warrior back to the capital, since it's easier to defeat than an archer? :confused: Man, I can't let that warrior slip by! :cry:

klarius, my plan is to use one of the gold-hill-axes to cover the worker that is roading, and the other to kill that warrior. Are you saying that it would be more clever to let that warrior back to the capital, since it's easier to defeat than an archer? :confused: Man, I can't let that warrior slip by! :cry:
Yes I'm saying don't kill the warrior. He will either be in the next settler pair or even stay behind in Athens while a CG1 archer goes with the settler. Both are much better opportunities to kill him. It is probably his first and only warrior and by that he is city defense.

Lets see if I have understood this right. When we enter within 2 tiles of any of Alex' cities he switches mode into something with more unit builds (but not excluding settlers or workers, right? Mansa completed a worker while we had our units next to Timbuktu). This lasts for a while (9 turns?), or until we cease to threaten his cities.
In the standard mode he is likely to build a settler with two escorts, one defender and one attacker. Alex is probably about to switch back to this mode soon if he hasn't already done it. Btw, in what order does he build the settler and escorts?

Athens is size 6 and could work, say, fish+sheep+gold+3 forests for about 9-10 hammers per turn (Mfg graph could confirm this). He can also whip (or chop) archers like crazy (if the AI does that sort of thing).
As for a settler, he can build that in 10-11 turns, much sooner if he poprushes it.


It seems to me that the timing for the Athens attack will be critical. The best would be if we arrive at the gates of Athens just as the escorted Settler group is finished. In the typical stupid AI fashion these would then move out leaving Athens with a minimum defense. The worst would be if we manage to trigger an avalanche of archers instead...

Yes I'm saying don't kill the warrior. He will either be in the next settler pair or even stay behind in Athens while a CG1 archer goes with the settler. Both are much better opportunities to kill him. It is probably his first and only warrior and by that he is city defense.

Ok, I will leave it alone :eek: and heal instead. If there is an opportunity, I will send a pair of axes S of Athens. And try to lure our an archer with a worker :evil:

BTW - I intend to play ~8 turns tonight and upload for mid-turn review, perhaps in 12 hours time?

Lets see if I have understood this right. When we enter within 2 tiles of any of Alex' cities he switches mode into something with more unit builds (but not excluding settlers or workers, right? Mansa completed a worker while we had our units next to Timbuktu). This lasts for a while (9 turns?), or until we cease to threaten his cities.
In the standard mode he is likely to build a settler with two escorts, one defender and one attacker. Alex is probably about to switch back to this mode soon if he hasn't already done it. Btw, in what order does he build the settler and escorts?

Athens is size 6 and could work, say, fish+sheep+gold+3 forests for about 9-10 hammers per turn (Mfg graph could confirm this). He can also whip (or chop) archers like crazy (if the AI does that sort of thing).
As for a settler, he can build that in 10-11 turns, much sooner if he poprushes it.


It seems to me that the timing for the Athens attack will be critical. The best would be if we arrive at the gates of Athens just as the escorted Settler group is finished. In the typical stupid AI fashion these would then move out leaving Athens with a minimum defense. The worst would be if we manage to trigger an avalanche of archers instead...

So, bottom line: if Athens is evacuated the turn before I attack, then this event is masterminded by the peanut gallery. If a fourth archer pops up, it's due to the incompetence of the wretched captain, yes? :mad:

***On ‘which axe attacks first’:
Have I understood correctly?: The stronger unit should go first, the second stronger should follow and so on to maximize the city-taking probability. Right?

One thing I always consider is ‘who the survivor Axe will be?’ If the taking of the city is guaranteed, I want my best attacker to survive and see another fight.


***On the ocean tile
I haven’t understood. What is the tile produce on the map? What would you expect it to be if no land around it?


***On the immediate taking of Athens
Sounds good. I am scared, though:
Small fear: are we leaving any units as city garrison?
Big fear: are we leaving any units to keep the other AI from connecting its resources?

Lets see if I have understood this right. When we enter within 2 tiles of any of Alex' cities he switches mode into something with more unit builds (but not excluding settlers or workers, right? Mansa completed a worker while we had our units next to Timbuktu). This lasts for a while (9 turns?), or until we cease to threaten his cities.
In the standard mode he is likely to build a settler with two escorts, one defender and one attacker. Alex is probably about to switch back to this mode soon if he hasn't already done it. Btw, in what order does he build the settler and escorts?

Athens is size 6 and could work, say, fish+sheep+gold+3 forests for about 9-10 hammers per turn (Mfg graph could confirm this). He can also whip (or chop) archers like crazy (if the AI does that sort of thing).

It seems to me that the timing for the Athens attack will be critical. The best would be if we arrive at the gates of Athens just as the escorted Settler group is finished. In the typical stupid AI fashion these would then move out leaving Athens with a minimum defense. The worst would be if we manage to trigger an avalanche of archers instead...
The AI never switches builds if there are 3 or less turns to go. We were lucky with Mansa just to get there at the right time. Otherwise he would have switched (but obviously not completed anything).
The AI also doesn't pop-rush with 3 or less turns to go. With the high production of Athens there is a tiny :) chance that we move in just in time for him not pop-rushing, but also not completing. But anyway what he completes while we move in should be attackers that can be pulled out by worker bait.
Edit:
The danger mode, which forbids to start a settler or worker, just lasts while there is danger. The 9 turns were after war declaration.

So if we are lucky, we get Athens from a warrior and an unpromoted archer while everything better is moved out. :D
Or we reach it with 4 promoted archers inside and not more than 1 going out while we are adjacent to the city :cry:

The build order isn't clear. It depends on what is existing in Sparta also. If nothing would be available he would build one escort first. But there is this warrior, so he might build a settler curr