Sailing is not for connecting our cities, but for galleys. Masonry seems more important IF we need Astronomy.
Where is the gain in galleys?
We don't even have settlers for the best city locations on our land and don't see any striking island locations to settle. For scouting wbs are as good. The only thing would be triremes, if we fear for our seafood. And a lighthouse for Athens, but that's not necessary w/o pyramids, as we will not have the happiness to make good use of the food.
And we shouldn't rush wbs in Athens. They can be built by hand pretty fast and Athens is small currently.

Edit:
And definitely kill the settler, if we still can. Alex has to leave the scene soon, for happiness in Athens. No waiting for growth in a suboptimal city location that may be settled so it's initially only working an elephant.

Well, now the question what to do next.
We could pop-rush the Oracle to make it sure (nothing hurts more than losing by one turn). But OTOH, building Oracle lets us rush granary after that.
We could consider to run caste right away (revolt while Athens is still in resistance). We need to research fast now for masonry and math and haven't got a lot gold from Athens (a bit more luck could have got us around 200). So we want scientists in Athens and Timbuktu fast (which also means we don't want to pop-rush them a lot).
We want to kill Greece soon (cannot afford motherland crybabies in Athens for long).
We neglected Carthage a bit and have to look after them.jesusin also wants 2 wbs out of Athens asap. (I agree ;))
We need those settlers you're talking about.
We need to decide on prime cities.
We need to figure out where to build the Pyramids (if at all).
We need to defog NW of Athens and the N gold to finalize our settling plans.

Here's one mix that I've come up with, if we want to build the Pyramids:

Research: Hunting>Masonry>Maths
Kill off Sparta asap and return Hannibal to the Stone Age.
Athens builds (spears, as needed, when possible)>wb>wb>(granary?)>FP City settler
Timbuktu finishes Oracle>Pyramid City settler (poprushed T6)>...
Pyramid City (settled T12) builds Oracle.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Pyramid_City.JPG

(In the unlikely scenario that Alex settles PyrCity for us, we wait for its borders to expand after killing off Sparta asap and send this settler to FP City or elsewhere).
Finances: Athens connects copper (1 road), builds gold mine, connects to London. Gold mine plus a bit of cash from capturing Sparta should get us to Maths in time for Pyramids around T30.
Not sure when to switch to castes, but after the settler poprush.

Rationale: Athens wb>wb>Oracle takes about 27t. Pyramid CIty is almost as fast, but uses our other 2 wkrs who have little intelligent to do in Timbuktu after the mine and 1 chop (a farm and cottages can come later). Frees up Athens for more important stuff (FP City settler, granary, lh eventually). Pyramid City will be slow to develop (better to start sooner) but will have 23h/t and 12g/t at pop9 with banana plantation!!! Researching hunting does not interfere with this plan and gives us spears and ivory in Pyramid City.

EDIT: Not chopping the pyramids in Athens also means we can choose to leave those forest for more :hammers: production later on.

Athens will be unhappy at size 5 already (and we sure don't want it smaller than that), if we don't have a lux (or convert to confucius :confused:). As the connection to copper is absolutely unimportant (no land units in the next few turn-sets there - we are over this rush phase), I would rather connect it to London first or get the gold first.

I still think pyramids in Athens ASAP and settle FP city next.

Before we can make any future decisions, we need to know if we get CoL with the Oracle. And we only need to decide what to build in London, some worker actions and troop movement.

I can handle troop movement myself, but I don't know what to build in London.

The Timbuktu workers can perhaps do something else then planned (mine and chop).

I would like us (me?) to play the upcoming two turns soon so we can get into discussion of the next turn set.

As there is a barb warrior north of Timbuktu which might anyway disrupt our worker actions, I would rather have the workers irrigate some banana.
I'm still thinking of going caste soon and need pop for scientists to speed up math.
I don't remember what's build in London currently, but I think it was a unit, which should be OK for now as we are a bit light in the north.

I still think pyramids in Athens ASAP and settle FP city next.

Agree.

This is how I figure we can get the Pyramids the fastest:
4t for revolt to end, 3 turns for border expansion, 3 more turns for growth to pop4 which will be current maximum. Meanwhile workers roads gold+forest (4t), mines gold together (3t), and then starts chopping. At size 4 Athens can work Fish, copper, gold, and forested hill for 14 hammers per turn. After 16 turns the accumulated production is 16*14*2=448 hammers. The workers chop 2 forests each (about 12 turns) and one forest together (3-4t), giving 5*60=300 hammers. Pyramids completed T26.
LC, can you do better?

Before we can make any future decisions, we need to know if we get CoL with the Oracle. And we only need to decide what to build in London, some worker actions and troop movement.

I can handle troop movement myself, but I don't know what to build in London.

The Timbuktu workers can perhaps do something else then planned (mine and chop).

I would like us (me?) to play the upcoming two turns soon so we can get into discussion of the next turn set.

Good idea. It might be disruptive to our plans if Conf is founded in London...:eek:

I suggest that you continue to build on that axe in London. Alternatively, you put some hammers into a settler.

Workers at Athens => roads
Workers at Timbuktu => Hill mine
Worker at London => Hill mine

I still think pyramids in Athens ASAP and settle FP city next.

Fully agree. :)
Also LC proposal for Hunting next - in order to build some spears for safety against possible Hannibal's chariots sounds good.

And YES - before another endless page of disscusions we need to finnish the following two turns to see where CoL will place Confucianism ... ;)


I can handle troop movement myself, but I don't know what to build in London.


What about a Grannary in London ? Our defense there is somehow thin - only 1 axeman and 1 warrior, but this could deal with any "normal" barbarian - and the only real problem will be a sneak apparition of 2 chariots from Hannibal ...

Regards all

P.S. : We still keep as a posibility a rush against Hanibal too, no ? :confused:

Before we can make any future decisions, we need to know if we get CoL with the Oracle. And we only need to decide what to build in London, some worker actions and troop movement.

I can handle troop movement myself, but I don't know what to build in London.

The Timbuktu workers can perhaps do something else then planned (mine and chop).

I would like us (me?) to play the upcoming two turns soon so we can get into discussion of the next turn set.THere's also the choice of tech. Hunting or Masonry?

As there is a barb warrior north of Timbuktu which might anyway disrupt our worker actions, I would rather have the workers irrigate some banana.Timbuktu borders expand next turn, so the hill should be safe. If the worker to the E chops the forest further east, he's likely to be safe.Meanwhile workers roads gold+forest (4t), mines gold together (3t), and then starts chopping Don't forget the NE tile that connects to the London riverCOncerning the next 2 turns, we have 2 choices for the Athens E worker, depending on where we want him at the end of connecting to London. 1 turn faster is to first road the desert (is it fp?) to the NE (4t), then he comes back SW to the forest and roads that (4t). This leaves him in Athens for further work. The other worker roads and mine gold--timed for Athens working the gold at pop4.

THere's also the choice of tech. Hunting or Masonry?

Masonry. Hannibal has piss poor production (well, slightly better now that he has improved the horses but still poor) and we have a bunch of axes with an attitude. With a lone axe I would be worried, but a stack of 3-4 axes can easily pillage Hannibal back to square one.

Athens will be unhappy at size 5 already (and we sure don't want it smaller than that), if we don't have a lux (or convert to confucius :confused:). As the connection to copper is absolutely unimportant (no land units in the next few turn-sets there - we are over this rush phase), I would rather connect it to London first or get the gold first.

I still think pyramids in Athens ASAP and settle FP city next.If you guys aren't worried about Hannibal's chariots, then I'm not. Anyway, my first inclination was to road then mine the gold with the new Athens worker.

No one wants Pyramids faster than I, so I'm with you on that. On the other hand, I'm really concerned that building it in Athens is much weaker than building it elsewhere for the reasons I mentioned (better use of Athens and better use of the Timbuktu workers). How soon do you expect to build the FP City settler and what other cities do you think we should build asap?

For up to 1AD, I'm thinking we need 3 types of cities: GP farms, unit production, naval production.

Notes:
1. Athens gold mine (+8g) ~= 3 scientists (+9:science), but only costs 1 citizen. I don't see how we'll use scientists here before pop6 or pop7.
2. Settling Pyrmaid City on T12 = +1:) in Athens from ivory on T14.

Agree.

This is how I figure we can get the Pyramids the fastest:
4t for revolt to end, 3 turns for border expansion, 3 more turns for growth to pop4 which will be current maximum. Meanwhile workers roads gold+forest (4t), mines gold together (3t), and then starts chopping. At size 4 Athens can work Fish, copper, gold, and forested hill for 14 hammers per turn. After 16 turns the accumulated production is 16*14*2=448 hammers. The workers chop 2 forests each (about 12 turns) and one forest together (3-4t), giving 5*60=300 hammers. Pyramids completed T26.
LC, can you do better?I had wb(T10)>wb((T16)>pyramids(T27). 6 chops @90:hammers: = 540 + 10t @14:hammers:/t = 140.

What about your wbs. DOn't you think we want to pre-chop and use maths for the extra hammers?

EDIT: Btw, I was assuming continual growth, not stopping at pop4. So I wasn't working the forest at all.

If you guys aren't worried about Hannibal's chariots, then I'm not. Anyway, my first inclination was to road then mine the gold with the new Athens worker.

No one wants Pyramids faster than I, so I'm with you on that. On the other hand, I'm really concerned that building it in Athens is much weaker than building it elsewhere for the reasons I mentioned (better use of Athens and better use of the Timbuktu workers). How soon do you expect to build the FP City settler and what other cities do you think we should build asap?

For up to 1AD, I'm thinking we need 3 types of cities: GP farms, unit production, naval production.


I think we are well covered when it comes to unit production. Both London and Timbuktu can be dedicated to building units later on.

GP farms are more urgent than naval production, except for the scouting workboats that we need to get out there. Best would be if we could get a city or two that can double as both naval producers and GP farms. I have been thinking about Sparta - it has fish (5f), cow (4f2h), and horse (1f4h) and could potentially run 3 scientists as size 5 or 6 while still maintaining a decent production. Best of all, we can have it "settled" in about 5 turns.

Spice city in the "good" location would also be a great GP farm that could be used for a couple of exploring boats early on.

I had wb(T10)>wb((T16)>pyramids(T27). 6 chops @90:hammers: = 540 + 10t @14:hammers:/t = 140.

What about your wbs. DOn't you think we want to pre-chop and use maths for the extra hammers?

EDIT: Btw, I was assuming continual growth, not stopping at pop4. So I wasn't working the forest at all.

Depends on how soon we will get maths. If it delays the Pyramids by 10 or more turns I see no reason to wait. Can we really get Maths in 20 turns from now?

Continual growth is of no use if the happy cap is at 4. Better to get the Pyramids out sooner for an additional 3 happy.

Depends on how soon we will get maths. If it delays the Pyramids by 10 or more turns I see no reason to wait. Can we really get Maths in 20 turns from now?

Continual growth is of no use if the happy cap is at 4. Better to get the Pyramids out sooner for an additional 3 happy.Athens will be +6:) with gold. +7 with ivory. Monument +8, if needed. The key to Athens' happiness is killing of Alex, as klarius mentioned. Sparta will be easy and his ivroy city will fall shortly thereafter.

I think the Pyramids (representation) got nerfed to +2:), didn't it?

I get Pyramids in Athens T27, having calculated (not assumed) we'll have maths by then. This counts on mining the gold by T9.

I get Pyramids in Pyramid city on T33 at the latest, but this can be moved back probably to T27 by sending a 3rd and 4th worker from Athens toward the end.

Athens will be +6:) with gold. +7 with ivory. Monument +8, if needed. The key to Athens' happiness is killing of Alex, as klarius mentioned. Sparta will be easy and his ivroy city will fall shortly thereafter.

I think the Pyramids (representation) got nerfed to +2:), didn't it? No, Representation is definitely at +3:) Check the civics screen if you don't believe me.

I get Pyramids in Athens T27, having calculated (not assumed) we'll have maths by then. This counts on mining the gold by T9.

I get Pyramids in Pyramid city on T33 at the latest, but this can be moved back probably to T27 by sending a 3rd and 4th worker from Athens toward the end.

Ok, sounds good. I assume we would then build WBx2 in Athens and then set it up to be the super-GP farm?

I think we are well covered when it comes to unit production. Both London and Timbuktu can be dedicated to building units later on.

GP farms are more urgent than naval production, except for the scouting workboats that we need to get out there. Best would be if we could get a city or two that can double as both naval producers and GP farms. I have been thinking about Sparta - it has fish (5f), cow (4f2h), and horse (1f4h) and could potentially run 3 scientists as size 5 or 6 while still maintaining a decent production. Best of all, we can have it "settled" in about 5 turns.

Spice city in the "good" location would also be a great GP farm that could be used for a couple of exploring boats early on.For GP farms, Timbuktu, Athens and FP City ought to be enough. Pyramids in Athens has the advantage of adding 2 GE points/turn for a possible GE (Machinery). I'm okay on klarius' idea except farming the bananas is clearly a non-optimal solution, at least in the sense that it means throwing away 8 worker turns in thenot-to-distant future. I just wish he'd explain more of the details, such as how he plans to make the FP City settler and when.

Actually, if Timbuktu is going to be a GP Farm, we need to be concerned with not getting a GProphet and that means getting scientists going there asap. It mightbe better to use Timbuktu as a cottage city instead and pop GLs elsewhere. Otherwise, we probably ought to get at least 3 scientists going there asap (at pop5) and not even poprush anyuthing.

T13 update
Athens + 1 worker captured
2 archers killed
3 axes lost
Detected settler+archer on hill west of ivory
Research Masonry. I aint afraid of no chariot. They have bonus on attack, not defense, so we don't have to worry at Timbuktu.

T14 update
Greek settler captured => worker, archer killed.
The axe (1.6) is under threat from a combat promoted archer, so may not survive. Perhaps Alex will recapture worker, but then we can steal it back later perhaps?
Hannibal has roaded horses but not copper.
Sparta has 2 unpromoted archers.
Oracle next turn. Please, please found conf in Athens :please:

T15 update
Confucianism founded in
Athens :D :bounce: :banana: :dance: :thanx:
Axe lost to Greek archer, worker lost.

Save uploaded

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1270 BC to 1210 BC:

Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Alexander's Archer (7.80)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 8.8%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Alexander's Archer (9.30)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 2.4%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Alexander's Archer (7.90)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 14.2%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (69/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (53/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (37/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 16 (21/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (3.34)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 87.0%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 17 (19/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 17 (2/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (1.95)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 18 (3/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: You have captured a Worker
Turn 91, 1270 BC: You have captured Athens!!!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: London will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 91, 1270 BC: London will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 91, 1270 BC: The borders of Timbuktu have expanded!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Timbuktu will grow to size 4 on the next turn

Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (3.75)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 92, 1240 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have captured a Worker
Turn 92, 1240 BC: London has grown to size 5
Turn 92, 1240 BC: London has become unhealthy
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Timbuktu has grown to size 4
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill has completed The Oracle!
Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have constructed The Oracle in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer (3.30) vs Churchill's Axeman (1.60)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 92, 1240 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (12/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 92, 1240 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 92, 1240 BC: While defending, your Axeman was destroyed by a Greek Archer!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Athens!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!

Well, Erkon, I have looked at the save and in my honest opinion you're turnset was PERFECT! :thumbsup: :goodjob: :bowdown: You really packed a lot into a small number of turns. I know for myself that I wouldn't have captured Athens as fast as you did, unless I were asking you guys for advice along the way. Well done!

Wonderful! Everything just as we hoped for. WTG Erkon! :goodjob: :)

Now, as Erkon seems to have wasted away ;) a bunch of our axes I would suggest that London keeps building a few more, maybe with the help of Athens once the workboats are underway.
I would definitely like to have Hannibal's horse and copper pillaged. Maybe we should skip Sparta for now and send the two idle axes to join up with the warrior near Carthage. Once we have deprived Hannibal of his strategic resources all but one axe can return again.

Excellent - probably the best turnset ever seen !! :)

We was lucky to found Confucianism exactely in time and where we wanted and also to reduce Alex to just one ( quite ) poor city !! :goodjob:

Look at this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/kl_wlsgotm6_2.jpg

Edit:
BTW, I haven't done any detailed planning.
The idea with the farm was just, that we might pop-rush a settler before granary and need to regrow fast.
Just gut feeling.

Save uploaded (see above). Please use that save instead of the one previously attached.

I just love our graphs (score, culture and power). They just don't look like anyone elses :D

klarius, fantastic spotting! :welldone: How about settling that spice city really quick and see if we can reach them? This reminds med of SGOTM4, where CRC managed to get to Hannibal with galleys, while we needed astronomy. Question is, shall we switch to Sailing, and build a galley in Athens? It would arrive at the spices at the same time as ocean has been bridged...

Well, there is the question if Gyathaar is just teasing us. Up to now we cannot say that we can reach this culture with a bridge. And it's still a question to me if rather on spices or on rice. Or even s of rice, for a short term useful city, which gets a bridge with double expansion.

Edit:
In any case we should check the cow island with a wb, before we commit to anything. Maybe there is the easy bridge.

Hmmm, I looked for waves but couldn't see any. But there is something suspicius about the tiles SW of the spice. :eek:

Look at this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/kl_wlsgotm6_2.jpg


So that is what it was! I couldn't understand why the fog had rounded corners there. Brilliant, klarius! :)

Edit:
BTW, I haven't done any detailed planning.
The idea with the farm was just, that we might pop-rush a settler before granary and need to regrow fast.
Just gut feeling.Makes sense. We can still do that. Based on what Gnejs said about needing cities for GP and galleys, I see these basic options for popping GLs:
1. (Maybe) fastest and risky: This is also fast Pyramids. => T0 Castes, grow TImbuktu to pop(6t), work 3 scientists, pop GS (65%) or GProph (35%) on T19-20. Capture 3rd Alex worker before killing Sparta. All three workers pre-chop Athens. Athens wb>wb>Pyramids. Athens works scientists at pop? (haven't optimized this). Then FP City, Athens and TImbuktu pop our 2nd, 3rd, 4th GLs. No need for another GPFarm. Next city maybe the fish/cattle/2gold for galleys. 2nd Timbuktu GS at ~80-87% odds.
2. Prophet-free GL route: Timbuktu makes cottages instead of using scientists. (contributes ~30 fewer :science:s to Maths than #1 above). Chop Pyramids in Athens. Requires Castes so Athens can pump out first GS. Still need 2 more GP Farms.
3. Pure genetics GS route: Build Pyramid City as previously described. Athens chops/builds wb>wb>granary>(monument)>lh, grows really fast and works beaucoup scientists.

I haven't done any comparisons. I'm a gambler at heart, so I'm game for #1. But I gamble every GOTM and submit about 1/12... :cool: If we do gamble, though, remember that gambling and losing with an axe is a pinprick compared to having to research Optics or Machinery by hand. On the other hand, the big gamble is on T20 and at least we'd know where we stand.

Notes, at T20:
Timbuktu pop4/2 scientists = 114:science: + 19:commerce:; Castes; (not incl. city center, trade route)
Timbuktu pop5/3 scientists = 117:science: + 37:commerce: ...
Timbuktu pop4<pop7, 3 cottages = 123:commerce:; no Castes

How about:
We go the caste, high research route, but:
We fit in monotheism. We may get judaism for our next city or not, that's not the point.
When math completes we go into a confucian, organised, slavery to harvest the trees, get some overflow from pop-rushing (libraries) and build a few missionaries.
After all that's done, representation and caste. Maybe want to revert to no-state, to get the culture from all our religions.

BTW, I don't see that we can do without Timbuktu. Getting 2 more cities for scientists is a lot as we also want other cities. So better make the prophet probability low.
OTOH optics self researched is not that much (assuming we have libraries by then) , so if we get 1 GS less, but are able to work all scientists we want, that's not so much of a problem.

Edit:
And maybe we have given up astronomy by then ;)

LC, I don't think that building the pyramids as quick as possible is the best way forward. We may achieve domination without astronomy for example. And even if we need astronomy, we need to have cities large enough to start running scientists. Perhaps we can run a scientist or two to reach Mathematics quicker, but to really advance in the tech tree we need like 8-10 scientists for 40-50 turns. I think we shall time the pyramids to when we can run those scientists. We are on T25 in our Astro-BC plans, so we have at least another 25 turns according to that plan to get the pyramids. And I think we can wait another 10 turns, for a total of 35 turns from now.

We need to build workboats in Athens (Galleys would be better, but I think we need to get Math as quick as possible).
We also need to build a few units to take out Sparta and Carthago (maybe not highest priority, but I want those workers ;))
We also need to build settlers for our new cities.

I don't want to cottage Timbuktu. It's better to use that city to build the settlers we need, and we need several of them. Example:
FP-city (3E of wheat for example).
Pyramid city (anywhere with lots of forest and good production, such as W of Timbuktu)
Bridge City West (either on the rice NW of London, or on spice)
Two of these can be built in Timbuktu, and one in London.
We also need more workers.

Barb cities will start to spawn soon. Perhaps we can steal some of those. We need to be prepared for that, but not rely on it.

Gnejs, I can also see the cultural border if I look really close. Man, you should have noticed that long time ago! :nono:

How about:
We go the caste, high research route, but:
We fit in monotheism. We may get judaism for our next city or not, that's not the point.
When math completes we go into a confucian, organised, slavery to harvest the trees, get some overflow from pop-rushing (libraries) and build a few missionaries.klarius, can you give me a quick estimate on our city upkeep when Athens comes out of resistance? Will it change much between Timbuktu at pop4 + Athens pop4, and Timbuktu pop5 + Athens pop5?
(right now we're at city upkeep 5, if you're not at your save)

Population isn't much of a factor (have to look it up for warlords). This is warlords, so maintenance is calculated in 1/100 and then summed up, so we don't have to be aware of breakpoints where all of a sudden several cities increase a whole coin.

The number of cities maintenance for Athens in the other cities, is already there. So you can expect for Athens to have just a bit more (14/13 for distance part) maintenance than Timbuktu .

LC, I don't think that building the pyramids as quick as possible is the best way forward. We may achieve domination without astronomy for example. And even if we need astronomy, we need to have cities large enough to start running scientists. Perhaps we can run a scientist or two to reach Mathematics quicker, but to really advance in the tech tree we need like 8-10 scientists for 40-50 turns. I think we shall time the pyramids to when we can run those scientists. We are on T25 in our Astro-BC plans, so we have at least another 25 turns according to that plan to get the pyramids. And I think we can wait another 10 turns, for a total of 35 turns from now. That's my basic idea with building Pyramid City (by poprushing a settler in Timbuktu): Look at our 3 cities. Do we have a natural "settler pump"? Yes. How do you spell Athens? With 2-3 workers, how fast can Athens chop/build wb>wb>FP City? :crazyeye: Athens is crazy powerful.

We need to build workboats in Athens (Galleys would be better, but I think we need to get Math as quick as possible).
We also need to build a few units to take out Sparta and Carthago (maybe not highest priority, but I want those workers ;)) Sparta definitely, but wouldn't Carthage uncaptured be a nice worker pump for us?

We also need to build settlers for our new cities. How many? FP City and Fish/2gold cover our basic Gnejsian needs, right? Then we build bridges as necessary, speaking of which, we might need both of those two you mentioned...

I don't want to cottage Timbuktu. This is just an alternative to using the scientists now. It's better to use that city to build the settlers we need, and we need several of them. Example:
FP-city (3E of wheat for example).
Pyramid city (anywhere with lots of forest and good production, such as W of Timbuktu)
Bridge City West (either on the rice NW of London, or on spice)
Two of these can be built in Timbuktu, and one in London.
We also need more workers. My gut feeling is that the fastest way to REX right now would be to use Athens (after 2wbs) as the main settler pump, London for units, TImbuktu for the first poprushed settler. But I also like axe(2t)>settler(8t chopped) in London.
I think you opened the same can of worms that's spread all over my desk...;). Let's start with our break-even research rate right now: ~13:science: per turn ! :eek:. That's the equivalent of ~2 scientists under Representation, right? :cool: Our 100% rate right now = 27:science:. That's 4 1/2 scientists. :king:

Next, let's remember what klarius said on about post #15 or 30. "We need to research Calendar asap." Calendar opens up our growth and our happiness. So Representation almost asap is hard to ignore.

Let's revisit our priorities (not ordered):
- Re-Stone Age Hannibal;
- Exterminate Alex;
- Explore the waters;

- Build Pyramids;
- Build FP City
- Build Galley City
- Research Maths

- Build bridge cities (hit to our economy)

- Research Calendar
- Research Construction
- Research Iron Working
- ???

Well, the city south of the rice can build a bit, can be a bridge city and is in very short time no liability, but increases our commerce (assume growth helped by borrowed cow, then work rice and gold). Added benefit, we don't need a lot of units to escort the settler. It takes quite some time to get the 2 (desert) gold city to anything similar.

City maintenance by population increase:
Factor on distance maintenance (new_pop+7)/(old_pop+7), so 12/11 for 4->5.
Factor on num cities maintenance (new_pop+17)/(old_pop+17) 22/21 4->5.

All in all about .3 per pop currently for Athens or Timbuktu.

Didn't look up the exact numbers, but it's 0 or 1 coin empire wide for both cities to grow.
In warlords maintenance is summed up in 1/100th and then truncated. In vanilla it's truncated for every city.

My rough calcs show Masonry>Maths in ~18t fastest, using the tiles we want to use and Castes in Timbuktu. BUt with 3 workers, wb>wb>Pyramids still aren't done before T23, I don't think. That's compared with an estimate of Maths on T24 (may be slower) and Pyramids on T27 in Pyramid City, using only 2 workers and poprushed settler from Timbuktu.

With 3 workers chopping in Athens, I show wb(T10)>wb(T12)>settler(T16) = FP City founded T18. Third worker can then go to Pyramid City and help there.

Note: Assuming klarius re-captures Erkon's worker on T3, protected by the archer that has only healed to 2.8. May also be protected by warrior or have moved...

Ok, preliminary plan:
London and Timbuktu build 1 settler each (no pop-rush). Then we revolt to caste and apply scientists.
Otherwise we pretty sure end up with a prophet at some time as I have the impression we will get a great person out of Timbuktu, no matter how well we plan our later specialist management. Even in this scheme we have a higher prophet probability than we like, but as stated above we don't even know if we get to astronomy and optics isn't really that much of research.

Settlers build S of rice and FP city. That's enough currently IMO as more would be difficult to finance. First get these cities running.

I'm confused about S of rice. Isn't it possible that the land tile causing that ocean tile to show food is NW NW N N of rice?

EDIT: THe tiles W W W and W W NW of rice look deeper blue to me than the tile NW NW NW and Nw NW N

I'm confused about S of rice. Isn't it possible that the land tile causing that ocean tile to show food is NW NW N N of rice?

EDIT: THe tiles W W W and W W NW of rice look deeper blue to me than the tile NW NW NW and Nw NW N
S of rice is meant with double culture expansion which shouldn't be much of a problem with some artists later, if it's still necessary at all. It's not meant for a quick bridge to get non-existing galleys over.

It takes quite some time to get the 2 (desert) gold city to anything similar.THis city grows very rapidly with wb from Athens and chopped granary. Once developed, it's awesome. At pop5, 11h, 17g per turn. After IW, 14h, 18g per turn. It's the only galley city we need aside from Athens.

Ok, preliminary plan:
London and Timbuktu build 1 settler each (no pop-rush). Then we revolt to caste and apply scientists.
...
Settlers build S of rice and FP city. That's enough currently IMO as more would be difficult to finance. First get these cities running.

klarius, if we're not going to rush, why not switch to caste before Athens exit resistance?

Settler build is fine with me. WB in Athens?

Can you please confirm that the city 1S of rice will bridge the gap at 150 culture regardless if the coastal tile is NW-NW-N or NW-NW-W?

S of rice is meant with double culture expansion which shouldn't be much of a problem with some artists later, if it's still necessary at all. It's not meant for a quick bridge to get non-existing galleys over.

It will take 38 turns with artist to get second expansion. That is 266 :commerce: from gold mine! :eek:

And the wb will be up there much earlier. If you settle on rice, and work farmed grassland next to lake, you will end up with the same growth. It also enables us to work the gold and still grow (slowly). At size 3, we are stagnant at :8 hammers:.

Suggestion: settle rice city on rice. Employ artist for 4 turns. This will let the WB from the south passage to the island. Work coast for :commerce: until gold is mined (on T10 local time). 20 :food: collected. Pop2 on T23 => work farmed grassland. Pop3 on T41 => work mined plains hill.

THis city grows very rapidly with wb from Athens and chopped granary. Once developed, it's awesome. At pop5, 11h, 17g per turn. After IW, 14h, 18g per turn. It's the only galley city we need aside from Athens.
I don't have an image or the game currently, but where do you get all these hammers. And rapid growth means not working gold for this time.
S of rice can also get quite some hammers, if you want to invest in it's growth and let it have the cow.

It will take 38 turns with artist to get second expansion. That is 266 :commerce: from gold mine! :eek:

And the wb will be up there much earlier. If you settle on rice, and work farmed grassland next to lake, you will end up with the same growth. It also enables us to work the gold and still grow (slowly). At size 3, we are stagnant at :8 hammers:.

Suggestion: settle rice city on rice. Employ artist for 4 turns. This will let the WB from the south passage to the island. Work coast for :commerce: until gold is mined (on T10 local time). 20 :food: collected. Pop2 on T23 => work farmed grassland. Pop3 on T41 => work mined plains hill.
Well, I like the flexibility of having the cow more. I never intended to do an artist instead of the gold. Rather 2 artists at size 5 with cow and rice (obviously a lot later), if it is needed at all.

@Erkon: S of Rice definitely works on 2nd expansion.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_S_of_rice_city.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_Galley_City.JPG
City center 1h
cattle 3h
gold 2h
gold 2h
hill 3h
total: 11h
hill (iw) 3h = 14h

The rice definitely works on first expansion. S of rice definitely on second with a small chance for first.
Either n or w of the production ocean tile is coast, it cannot be only nw.

2GS are enough for the whole of Astronomy. In fact, 25%-35% of the second GS is wasted.

Otherwise we pretty sure end up with a prophet at some time as I have the impression we will get a great person out of Timbuktu, no matter how well we plan our later specialist management.Castes now: GS odds = 65%.
Castes after settler: GS odds = 60%.
Later on the odds get worse, because we're accumulating the GProph points continually ( or we under-utilize TImbuktu scientists waiting to pop the 4th GL).

Wonderful! Everything just as we hoped for. WTG Erkon! :goodjob: :)

Now, as Erkon seems to have wasted away ;) a bunch of our axes I would suggest that London keeps building a few more, maybe with the help of Athens once the workboats are underway.
I would definitely like to have Hannibal's horse and copper pillaged. Maybe we should skip Sparta for now and send the two idle axes to join up with the warrior near Carthage. Once we have deprived Hannibal of his strategic resources all but one axe can return again.I wondering if we can let the leaving-London axe capture the worker and then eventually go back to escort one of the settler. So the question is, are there enough axes down S already to handle Hannibal and Sparta?

Sparta has barracks and is producing 5h/turn, so it'll be making CDI archers now, right? Our promoted axes can beat the unpromoted ones still. With the 2 axes and the warrior, before border expansion, maybe we can get Sparta. It will soon get much harder and then we'll have to wait for him to build a settler and leave, right?

Another case of bad memory :rolleyes:.
Athens will be unhappy at size 4 already w/o lux (40% motherland at peace, 60% at war).
Alex has to die.

Sparta has barracks and is producing 5h/turn, so it'll be making CDI archers now, right? Our promoted axes can beat the unpromoted ones still. With the 2 axes and the warrior, before border expansion, maybe we can get Sparta. It will soon get much harder and then we'll have to wait for him to build a settler and leave, right?
If not all the time somebody would trample through the danger zone, he probably would just build a worker.

Another case of bad memory :rolleyes:.
Athens will be unhappy at size 4 already w/o lux (40% motherland at peace, 60% at war).
Alex has to die.From the test game I got:
pop3, 4:mad:
pop4, 6:mad:
pop5, 7:mad:
pop6, 9:mad:
pop7, 11:mad:
Does that sound right?

If not all the time somebody would trample through the danger zone, he probably would just build a worker.Lol. Of course we listen to you...:lol:

How about spreading the axes and warrior out on his :hammers:, then coming in with the other two while waiting for the London axe to capture his worker?

From the test game I got:
pop3, 4:mad:
pop4, 6:mad:
pop5, 7:mad:
pop6, 9:mad:
pop7, 11:mad:
Does that sound right?
Sounds right.
(Pop*600*plot_culture_percent/100)/1000
plot_culture_percent is nearly 100 (but we always get 1 culture, so never exactly 100). Confucius helps, but that takes quite some time until the culture percent goes below, the threshold for size 4 (and then it's still the same :mad: for 5).

As I'm sick at home currently and don't know how I'll feel in the evening, I think I just play until I either capture Sparta or not.
So, I got it.
I think the settler building is ok and none will finish till then.

In the meantime everybody can think about
To raze or not to raze, that's the question

To raze or not to raze, that's the questionIf there's another fish in that fog, it could be a GP farm. Good luck!

If there's another fish in that fog, it could be a GP farm. Good luck!
That's not really an answer. :p
BTW, I'm in Sparta, no additional seafood. I got there with 3 axes and a warrior on turn 4 and that was just enough (lost 2 axes) against the 2 reg archers.
I'll pause a bit and if I don't hear any more I raze.

Other question. Masonry in.
Judaism is still not founded. Should we go for it for the next city?
We got good gold from Sparta (72), so that's not much of a problem.

That's not really an answer. :p
BTW, I'm in Sparta, no additional seafood. I got there with 3 axes and a warrior on turn 4 and that was just enough (lost 2 axes) against the 2 reg archers.
I'll pause a bit and if I don't hear any more I raze.

Other question. Masonry in.
Judaism is still not founded. Should we go for it for the next city?
We got good gold from Sparta (72), so that's not much of a problem.I guess Org Rel we get Pyramids even cheaper, right? But it's a high maintenance civic (but only 1:commerce: now). But will we have a city by then?

I thnk I prefer to raze Sparta. No gold there.

Any luck with the worker?

Edit: Really nice would be MOno after settling FP CIty. For the wheat.

Naturally, I would time it just right, which also means I don't have to decide right away.
No luck with the worker. He escaped with no chance to catch him. I needed the axe for Sparta so couldn't get to him from 2 sides.

Go for it, if you think it makes sense.

How many buildings are we planning to build?

I think Pottery for granaries is more important than OR for 25% on buildings. Or even maths for +50% chops.

Played 10. The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Murky_Waters_SG006_BC0940_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Summary:
Sparta is no more :D. Hannibals copper is offline and he has no chance to prevent pillaging the horses.
A settler is south of rice and can found either in place or on rice and receive Judaism next turn.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1210 BC to 940 BC:

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Athens!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Churchill adopts Caste System!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 95, 1150 BC: The borders of Athens have expanded!

Turn 96, 1120 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (2.88)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 96, 1120 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 24 (56/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 24 (32/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 24 (8/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman (6.00) vs Alexander's Archer (5.25)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Combat Odds: 64.8%
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (5.25)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Combat Odds: 28.8%
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (0.84)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Warrior (2.00) vs Alexander's Archer (0.26)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: You have captured Sparta!!!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: The Greek Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: You have destroyed the city of Sparta!!!

Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Churchill's Warrior!

Turn 102, 970 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 102, 970 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.21)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (45/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (8/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 102, 970 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 102, 970 BC: You have trained a Settler in London. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 103, 955 BC: You have trained a Axeman in London. Work has now begun on a Axeman.


Turn 0:
Revolt to caste.
Move a few units.

Turn 1:
Timbuktu puts one turn in axe for emergency purposes.
These hammers will crumble away during settler build, but better save than sorry.

Turn 2:
Athens out of revolt. 2 artists for a turn for immediate expansion.
Timbuktu and London go to settler.
Enter Sparta danger zone again with 3 axes and a warrior. Still 2 archers.
Archer and worker are still where last seen.
BTW there is marble in the SW tundra.

Turn 3:
Now the worker is away, but the warrior is there.
Kill the archer.
Sparta still 2 archers.

Turn 4:
Masonry completes.
Battle of Sparta:
2 Axes lose, but then axe and warrior win.
Raze.
Set research to mono, which will be just in time (or a bit early) for s of rice.


Turn 5:
Nothing really to do.
Our defenses are paper thin everywhere, as 2 axes and warrior move towards Carthage.

Turn 6:
Still nothing.
Athens works gold now, so I switch to math to not get mono too early.

Turn 7:
A barb warrior kills our early schock warrior at less than 10% chance

Not much more.

Turn 8:
An axe avenges our warrior.

Turn 9:
I'm on Hannibals copper. No chariots to be seen. 3 archers.
Settler completes in London.
Work boat in Athens. Decide to move the long way sw first.

Turn 10:
pillage road on Hannibals copper.
Axes move to horses.

Settler can found this turn either south of rice or on rice.
Cancel the pre-chopping workers to be on the save side.

Monotheism to complete next turn.
Settler in Timbuktu in 2. 2 axes fog bust ahead.

Timbuktu begins: Axeman (52 turns)
Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'

Turn 94/660 (1180 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:04:46]
A Mine was built near London
London begins: Settler (11 turns)
London begins: Axeman (4 turns)

Turn 95/660 (1150 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:09:58]
A Mine was built near Timbuktu
London begins: Settler (10 turns)
Timbuktu begins: Settler (15 turns)
Athens's borders expand

Turn 96/660 (1120 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:18:47]
While attacking in the wild, Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 95.5%)
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 97/660 (1090 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:23:51]
Research begun: Mathematics (15 Turns)
Axeman promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Axeman loses to: Greek Archer (0.48/3) (Prob Victory: 64.8%)
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Axeman loses to: Greek Archer (0.15/3) (Prob Victory: 28.8%)
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Axeman defeats (4.25/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Captured Sparta (Alexander)
Greek Empire has been eliminated
Razed Sparta
Sparta lost
Research begun: Monotheism (7 Turns)

Turn 98/660 (1060 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:52:37]
Axeman promoted: Combat I

Turn 99/660 (1030 BC) [10-Jan-2008 16:59:24]
Athens grows: 4

Turn 100/660 (1000 BC) [10-Jan-2008 17:02:57]
A Mine was built near Athens
Research begun: Mathematics (13 Turns)
Axeman promoted: Combat I
While defending in the wild near Athens, Warrior loses to: Barbarian Warrior (0.56/2) (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
Turn 101/660 (985 BC) [10-Jan-2008 17:08:56]
Research begun: Monotheism (3 Turns)
A Farm was built near Timbuktu

Turn 102/660 (970 BC) [10-Jan-2008 17:14:28]
While attacking in English territory at Athens, Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
London finishes: Settler
Athens finishes: Work Boat

Turn 103/660 (955 BC) [10-Jan-2008 17:19:11]
Athens begins: Work Boat (5 turns)
Research begun: Mathematics (11 Turns)
London finishes: Axeman

Turn 104/660 (940 BC) [10-Jan-2008 17:27:35]
Research begun: Monotheism (1 Turns)

I think Pottery for granaries is more important than OR for 25% on buildings. Or even maths for +50% chops.
We have pottery since quite some time :).

How many buildings are we planning to build?
Well, I think granaries and libraries everywhere should come on the Agenda (maybe not in the now to be built city). Barracks in London and Athens. Lighthouse in Athens.
But currently we are really a bit thin on defenses after Erkon and me. So I really think to get math in, still with the help of a few scientists, then do confucius, slavery, org rel (a lot of revolt) to rush things in Athens with overflow in pyramids. The city built with Timbuktu settler should get Confucius to slave/chop granary and a few missionaries. Then pyramids complete and we revolt again - don't know if we keep org rel then. If we keep the org rel phase short, Timbuktu and London will not profit as they will not have confucius.

Looks really good. With Confucius and Pyramids, our cities will already be at 10:). We should grow Timbuktu and Athens asap and we'll be able to lightbulb Astronomy for fast galleons. Who cares if we "need" it. I don't se why we should leave Org Rel for a long time, if ever. Waste of a turn. And switch to it as soon as any city is ready to build missionaries. Not sure we want slavery before Astronomy. Just fly up the tech chart.

With Alex gone, barbs may be ready to invade our cities. Chariots would be a nice defense against barb axes. I think we should get Maths asap, but also continue making settlers, escorts and workers. At least a couple more cities, one coastal, one inland. Finances shouldn't be a problem too much. We can always capture another Hannibal city for some cash.

We're 3pts to a Great General! What do we do with it?

If I'm not mistaken, using a couple warriors and the axes, we can have the settler go straight on through to FP City. That top axe can go on hill ahead, and the next axe can go two hills (SES) ahead, can't they?

Whoa! Played so soon? I thought there was supposed to be some minimum time between turnsets? :confused:

I have a bunch of arguments against researching Monotheism and going OrgRel, but I see that the research part of it is already too late. :(


<rant mode on> Why waste 10 turns of research (at the current sustainable research rate) on a dead-end tech like Monotheism when it is Maths that is the most important technology now? And we don't need the culture since we can run artists. :gripe: <rant mode off>


Anyway, skip Organized religion. We will definitely not benefit from a turn of anarchy, and I don't think the production bonus is very useful. Sure, we gain 75 hammers for the Pyramids and something similar in Athens. But there is no point at all in building missionaries. A missionary costs 60 hammers, so we would need to complete 300 hammers worth of buildings in the target town to break even. Much more than that if we take into account the risk of failure in spreading the religion. Will we ever have the need to invest more than 3-400 hammers into buildings in any of our cities? I don't think so...


Btw, nicely executed turnset, klarius! :goodjob: (It is the strategy I don't agree with, the play was flawless)

Btw, Hannibal has settled a second city on a hill south of Timbuktu.

<rant mode on> Why waste 10 turns of research (at the current sustainable research rate) on a dead-end tech like Monotheism when it is Maths that is the most important technology now? And we don't need the culture since we can run artists. :gripe: <rant mode off>

We will get math before enough trees are pre-chopped.



Anyway, skip Organized religion. We will definitely not benefit from a turn of anarchy, and I don't think the production bonus is very useful. Sure, we gain 75 hammers for the Pyramids and something similar in Athens. But there is no point at all in building missionaries. A missionary costs 60 hammers, so we would need to complete 300 hammers worth of buildings in the target town to break even. Much more than that if we take into account the risk of failure in spreading the religion. Will we ever have the need to invest more than 3-400 hammers into buildings in any of our cities? I don't think so...


Btw, nicely executed turnset, klarius! :goodjob: (It is the strategy I don't agree with, the play was flawless)

Always only hammers, hammers, hammers. That's not all. We were going for a strategy with very big cities (maybe not any more :confused:). Happiness is in short supply.
The other thing is speed. Get things up faster.

We have pottery since quite some time :).

Ooops. It is becoming harder and harder to follow, without being able to open the save.

Please, listen to my advice less and less from now on...

We will get math before enough trees are pre-chopped.

You sure? If we settle two more cities our research rate will go down further. We also have four workers that could be prechopping already now around Pyramid city. Or have we decided on building the Pyramids in Athens?

Always only hammers, hammers, hammers. That's not all. We were going for a strategy with very big cities (maybe not any more :confused:). Happiness is in short supply.
The other thing is speed. Get things up faster.

The most important thing to get up fast is the Pyramids, since it gives us an instant +3:) and lets us research much faster towards Calender which will give us another +2:) from spice and dye. That results in a happy cap of 11 (12 in London) so I don't see the need for delaying the Pyramids just to get an extra +1:) from religion.

Edit: I would also have settled Pyramid city first (unless we build the Pyramids in Athens, then FP city should have been higher priority than the coastal city.)

klarius, excellent news! :goodjob:
Sparta gone is good, pity we could not afford to run it, or could catch the worker. I'm also happy that you managed to pillage Hannibal, since that was my main worry (i.e. my gravest mistake to leave with the warrior).

This is my view on the game:

Now that we run Caste, I can't see any reason to switch back to slavery, until after Astronomy. If we're close to cap, then just run scientists! We need to catch up the beakers spent on Monotheism. Let's focus on winning this game as quick as possible! Which is within 100 turns.

I'm still not convinced about settling 1S of rice. The cow is still needed for London, and the naval city won't build that much, will it? Later, a galley every 10 turns is enough. I am very eager to get a wb over to Asoka (or similar), that's why I prefer the rice city. With the cow, London can run 2 scientists and still have production. Rice city builds a WB and sends it NE.

If we can get an army to the western islands before Astronomy, we have a head start. I presume we're targeting Conquest, yes?

Switch to Org Rel in three turns when the wb is done, and before the FP city is settled. Then switch to conf when Rice city has expanded. Then Athens can build a miss or two, then start with Pyramids. Grow Athens to size 7 and run two scientist. When the Pyramids are done, we can complete granary or lighthouse or anything.

The conf miss goes to the FP city, which builds a granary from chops, then a miss while growing.

I think Timbuktu shall keep building settlers.

I'm not convinced that the hammers invested in Libraries will be worth it. We will not be limited by research, unless we target 3 GS. Key cities may have use for them, such as Athens.

If we can get an army to the western islands before Astronomy, we have a head start. I presume we're targeting Conquest, yes?


I have been counting tiles again. On our continent there are currently 489 tiles that are fully or partially defogged. There might be some more land on our continent SW of Athens, NE of Carthage, and N of Timbuktu. I also count 10 defogged island tiles reachable without culture bridges (could be more of course). There probably won't be more than 550 tiles, and we know it is at least 500 tiles. That leaves 670-720 tiles to split among the remaining 3 AIs, so they probably can reach around 240 tiles or less each if they are isolated.

The total land is 1220 tiles and we currently need 64% for domination which is 781 tiles. Btw, does this percentage change with the number of met or dead AIs?


Take our 500-550 and add the 120-240 tiles that we can guess that RagnAsoGandhi can reach, and we end up in the range 620-790. If he is isolated it seems unlikely, but not impossible :eek: , that we could win by domination using our continent and his land. But if he has contact with another AI the land will most likely be enough for a domination...

I think we need a WB going N from Athens ASAP, and be prepared to settle the Spice Peninsula as soon as the lack of an island bridge is established, if that is the case.




Another way to count is that by conquering RagnAsoGandhi we can claim the land of 5 out of 7 civs or 71% which is well over the limit. But that sounds a bit optimistic. :)

Domination is boring. :(

Looking at the map, Gyathaar set it up for domination. Practically everywhere you look you can build a city that more than pays for itself. You can settle the entire continent early on, practically, without having to worry about negative financing.

Here are the facts on Org Relig:

WIth the Pyramids, the max number of :hammers: we can save is 41h. That would be if each turn Athens had a base production divisible by 4 so we didn't lose any hammers to the 25% round-off.
Our cost for Pyramids w/o Org rel. = 375h
W/ORg Rel = 750/2.25= 333.33 = 334
375-334=41h
In Athens, that's roughly 1 chop or 4 turns. EDIT: Athens is currently producing 11h/t, with is maximally inefficient for ORg Rel (4, 8, 12, 16,...)

Similarly, savings on granary, lighthouse = max 18h
library = max 27h

Org Rel works better with a forge, where the max is the base productino divided by 2.

Turn 2:
Athens out of revolt. 2 artists for a turn for immediate expansion.I have one comment on the turnset: The two artists polluted our gene pool. Even at 1% odds...(guess I don't always gamble)

I would prefer to use the Confucian Miss in FP CIty and NOT hire any artists. 15 turns for border expansion is soon enough.

I think we need a WB going N from Athens ASAP, and be prepared to settle the Spice Peninsula as soon as the lack of an island bridge is established, if that is the case.

Why do you assume the spice leads to somewhere else than the rice. That's nearly impossible (ok some scattered 1 tile islands may work).
And why should this lead to Ragnarök (don't think we grabbed Hinduisms that late with Asoka or Gandhi in the game)

Why do you assume the spice leads to somewhere else than the rice. That's nearly impossible (ok some scattered 1 tile islands may work).
And why should this lead to Ragnarök (don't think we grabbed Hinduisms that late with Asoka or Gandhi in the game)

Hmm, I didn't think about culture not being able to expand onto ocean tiles. :blush:

Anyway, judging by the lighter coloured sides on the ocean tiles, the tile 2 NW of the Rice has coast to the N, while the tile 2 NW of the Spice has coast both to the N and to the W. Not sure if that helps us though.

I think Pottery for granaries is more important than OR for 25% on buildings. Or even maths for +50% chops.

Ok, we have pottery.

1.- Was revolting to CS before whipping the granaries wise?

2.- Is OR more important than Calendar or Construction?

Ok, let's not dwell on these questions too much, as they don't matter anymore.


Confused: Why is everybody saying that OR will give us 1 happy? We could have had that +1 by going confu without OR, couldn't we?

Are we running 10-turn turnsets now, and does that mean that Murky is up?

If Athens is going to build the Pyramids there is no hurry with settling any inland production/forest city. But I don't like the GP odds in Timbuktu at all, so I suggest that we get two more GP farms (besides Athens) up asap. FP city is the obvious one and this is where the Timbuktu settler should go. Then I would like to suggest settling the Spice peninsula, since it will have cost less in maintenance and can work fish, banana and cow for 4 scientists, 5 with a banana plantation. Finally, I think the 2xgold site south of London is too good to pass up.

This plan requires two more settlers. We could build one each in London and Timbuktu in the coming turnset while throwing in a couple of axes also. Speaking of which, when we have finished pillaging Hannibals resources I would like to find his two workers and/or station an axe at each of his two cities. We should also have two-three spare axes in the area for taking care of any escorted settlers.

Ok, we have pottery.

1.- Was revolting to CS before whipping the granaries wise?

2.- Is OR more important than Calendar or Construction?

Ok, let's not dwell on these questions too much, as they don't matter anymore.


Confused: Why is everybody saying that OR will give us 1 happy? We could have had that +1 by going confu without OR, couldn't we?1. Good question. Hard to determine a balance between using a few scientists to 1) keep our research going and 2) manage our growing maintenance costs while we 3) REX and 4) grow our cities for even more scientists. We have a lot of eggs in our basket.

2. Depends on how we use OR. In FP City, in the scenario I imagine, it would save us 3t on the granary and then 7t on the library. In Athens, switching to Conf and OR loses 2t, which are then regained with ~3t on Pyramids, then 2 1/2 to 3t on granary, same on lighthouse, more on library. THen more in another an unnamed city. Meanwhile, those two cities are growing and researching to Calendar. Ithink going straight to Calendar was probably better in the short run. In the long run, it probably depends on whether we need astronomy or not to win this game.

3. Whoever you are talking about is probably reffering to the Conf/OR package that gains the :) and saves some hammers.

If Athens is going to build the Pyramids there is no hurry with settling any inland production/forest city. But I don't like the GP odds in Timbuktu at all, so I suggest that we get two more GP farms (besides Athens) up asap. FP city is the obvious one and this is where the Timbuktu settler should go. Then I would like to suggest settling the Spice peninsula, since it will have cost less in maintenance and can work fish, banana and cow for 4 scientists, 5 with a banana plantation. Finally, I think the 2xgold site south of London is too good to pass up.

This plan requires two more settlers. We could build one each in London and Timbuktu in the coming turnset while throwing in a couple of axes also. Speaking of which, when we have finished pillaging Hannibals resources I would like to find his two workers and/or station an axe at each of his two cities. We should also have two-three spare axes in the area for taking care of any escorted settlers.Gnejs, you created our gene-pool destiny when you chose to build the Oracle in Timbuktu rather than London (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6333144&postcount=568). ;). (I'm not calling that a mistake.) Now we have to live with your choice... :cool: That created the conundrum of whether to build 2 more GP Farms (e.g., FP CIty and the dyes place) or run with Athens, FP City, and TImbuktu. There are problems with both. Building the dyes GP Farm may block our route to the New World and is slower to develop. Using TImbuktu may give us a GProph. klarius, as I understand it, decided that we wanted to use Timbuktu for scientists no matter what, meaning that we're going to pop a GL there sooner or later, and the sooner the better the odds. Sooner also means getting to maths and calendar sooner. The risk of the GProph is somewhat lessened by how fast we'll be able to research Machinery or Optics later on, if we get only 3 GS's. Furthermore, he decided to balance faster maths with the need for 2 more settlers which means that the odds will fall from 65% to 60%.

WIth those 2 settlers, klarius again had choices. FP City? 2xgold? Route to the new world? He chose FP City as a GP Farm for obvious reasons. He chose possible route to the new world because it didn't require an axe build, pays for itself quickly, and helps our exloration. If cattle island is a dead-end, the wb will get to the Rice Bridge on T13, and soon thereafter we'll have an idea of whether we are free to develop the dyes site or not.

The bottom line now is that FP City is in progress and imo, the time for another GP Farm is past--it will take a long time to develop. Using Timbuktu, GP risks aside, will boost our research the fastest and probably get us to Astronomy the fastest, no matter how lucky we are.

I agree with you that we need to build two more cities (in addition to FP City): Elephant City for units, ivory and horses, and 2xgold S for galleys. I think for fast conquest or domination these two cities will be crucial and they both more than pay for themselves. Elephant City will eventually be our #1 producer, critical to fast conquest or domination, in the meantime it will be able to crank out whatever we need, such as a couple axes or whatever. It will also pay for itself because all of its many important tiles produce food or hammers + coins.

To summarize:
London: build 2 more settlers, with axes as needed.
Timbuktu: grow to pop5 (6t), then work 3 scientists, while growing more and building granary.
Athens: wb>Pyramids
Rice City: Settle on rice, expand borders, then grow while working gold forever, build granary.
FP City: granary(1 chop)>library (EDIT: Plant Conf miss here asap for border expansion)

No. 2 cities per civ for deep barb attacks. 3 cities for barb cities to appear.
Remembered wrong. It's in fact 3 for barb attacks. 2 for cities.Just to clarify my understanding:

1.5 cities per player for barb units to spawn.
2 cities per player for barb cities to spawn.
Barbs will pillage 1 tile deep into city culture from the beginning.
3 cities per player for barbs to attack 2+ tiles deep into city culture.
3 players must know tech for barb civ to start accumulating beakers.

Do I have it right now?

Gnejs, you created our gene-pool destiny when you chose to build the Oracle in Timbuktu rather than London (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6333144&postcount=568). ;). (I'm not calling that a mistake.) Now we have to live with your choice... :cool: That created the conundrum of whether to build 2 more GP Farms (e.g., FP CIty and the dyes place) or run with Athens, FP City, and TImbuktu. There are problems with both. Building the dyes GP Farm may block our route to the New World and is slower to develop. Using TImbuktu may give us a GProph. klarius, as I understand it, decided that we wanted to use Timbuktu for scientists no matter what, meaning that we're going to pop a GL there sooner or later, and the sooner the better the odds. Sooner also means getting to maths and calendar sooner. The risk of the GProph is somewhat lessened by how fast we'll be able to research Machinery or Optics later on, if we get only 3 GS's. Furthermore, he decided to balance faster maths with the need for 2 more settlers which means that the odds will fall from 65% to 60%.

WIth those 2 settlers, klarius again had choices. FP City? 2xgold? Route to the new world? He chose FP City as a GP Farm for obvious reasons. He chose possible route to the new world because it didn't require an axe build, pays for itself quickly, and helps our exloration. If cattle island is a dead-end, the wb will get to the Rice Bridge on T13, and soon thereafter we'll have an idea of whether we are free to develop the dyes site or not.

The bottom line now is that FP City is in progress and imo, the time for another GP Farm is past--it will take a long time to develop. Using Timbuktu, GP risks aside, will boost our research the fastest and probably get us to Astronomy the fastest, no matter how lucky we are.

I agree with you that we need to build two more cities (in addition to FP City): Elephant City for units, ivory and horses, and 2xgold S for galleys. I think for fast conquest or domination these two cities will be crucial and they both more than pay for themselves. Elephant City will eventually be our #1 producer, critical to fast conquest or domination, in the meantime it will be able to crank out whatever we need, such as a couple axes or whatever. It will also pay for itself because all of its many important tiles produce food or hammers + coins.

To summarize:
London: build 2 more settlers, with axes as needed.
Timbuktu: grow to pop5 (6t), then work 3 scientists, while growing more and building granary.
Athens: wb>Pyramids
Rice City: Settle on rice, expand borders, then grow while working gold forever, build granary.
FP City: granary(1 chop)>library (EDIT: Plant Conf miss here asap for border expansion)

Will Spice city really be so slow to develop? Border pop in 3 turns using an artist (hey, if we could do it in Athens we can do it here also). Exploring WB should by then have found out if there is a passage at Rice city. If not, it can improve the fish. Otherwise Athens can spare a few hammers for another workboat. Pop2 in T8, work fish+banana, pop 3 in T14, pop4 in T20. Chop a Granary. By now we could probably have improved the cow using a galley built in Rice city. Pop8 in T33T38, switch to 5 scientists. Too late to matter? For comparison, how soon will FP city be able to work 5 scientists?

PS. As this is a team competition I think we should aim to make all major strategic decisions together as a team. For sure, I "chose" to build the Oracle in Timbuktu as I got the impression that we had a consensus on this. Also, klarius hasn't made any decisions regarding either what to do with the gene-pool in Timbuktu or where to settle the coming cities. This is for Murky or preferrably the team as a whole to decide...

Are we running 10-turn turnsets now, and does that mean that Murky is up?

Yes and if you guys don't mind waiting I'll play.

Will Spice city really be so slow to develop? Border pop in 3 turns using an artist (hey, if we could do it in Athens we can do it here also). Exploring WB should by then have found out if there is a passage at Rice city. If not, it can improve the fish. Otherwise Athens can spare a few hammers for another workboat. Pop2 in T8, work fish+banana, pop 3 in T14, pop4 in T20. Chop a Granary. By now we could probably have improved the cow using a galley built in Rice city. Pop8 in T33T38, switch to 5 scientists. Too late to matter? For comparison, how soon will FP city be able to work 5 scientists?

PS. As this is a team competition I think we should aim to make all major strategic decisions together as a team. For sure, I "chose" to build the Oracle in Timbuktu as I got the impression that we had a consensus on this. Also, klarius hasn't made any decisions regarding either what to do with the gene-pool in Timbuktu or where to settle the coming cities. This is for Murky or preferrably the team as a whole to decide...At 9:33 you posted:30 minutes to go before all is calm here and I get to finish my turnset. :)15 minutes later I posted my Oracle-in-London proposal. The team then had some discussion before you played, but I never got a response on this proposal and suddenly (from my eyes) you had already gone for Oracle in Timbuktu. (Note that I'm not trying to play the Devil's Advocate here. This is actually how it played out for me. I preferred not to dillute the gene pool and was looking for a solution. But at that time, we had bandied about several proposals and I think we were tired of discussing. Somewhat the opposite of what happened with klarius' 10 turns.)

I totally agree on the team thing. Totally. And so we go forward... ;) As for your Spice City GP Farm, it will help our research no matter what. Analyzing it involves determining a whole mess of factors (worker availability, when RIce will actually produce the galley, when the wb will actually arrive). I'm game. But note there is a problem in your logic for me, as highlighted above: If there is no passage at RIce CIty Bridge, then do we settle on the spices?

Just to clarify my understanding:

1.5 cities per player for barb units to spawn.
2 cities per player for barb cities to spawn.
Barbs will pillage 1 tile deep into city culture from the beginning.
3 cities per player for barbs to attack 2+ tiles deep into city culture.
3 players must know tech for barb civ to start accumulating beakers.

Do I have it right now?
Right except the last point. It's one third of the surviving civs rounded up. So initially it was 3, but by now it's 2.
But the start of accumulating isn't the important point usually. That's only 1%/turn. When all civs know a tech it's 3%/turn. By us not learning archery (not letting it exceed 2%/turn), but BW, we may have delayed archers to after axes.

OK, what is my understanding of the strategy I played towards:
We want 3 scientist cities for now, these are Timbuktu, Athens and FP city. Athens did a wb for scouting first and can do a second (even that is doubtful), but then it's food and scientists mainly (except the very strong plots), with the pyramids coming from chops mainly.
To satisfy the thirst for exploration we settle 1 bridge city for now. Probably on the rice as the people cannot wait. This city can build further scouting units on it's own.
That leaves only London for now for further settlers and military and that's also enough. I don't see that we need another wild rush and we can build some more cities, but that isn't that urgent. We may take some barb city maybe and will look after Hannibal in due time.

At 9:33 you posted:15 minutes later I posted my Oracle-in-London proposal. The team then had some discussion before you played, but I never got a response on this proposal and suddenly (from my eyes) you had already gone for Oracle in Timbuktu. (Note that I'm not trying to play the Devil's Advocate here. This is actually how it played out for me. I preferred not to dillute the gene pool and was looking for a solution. But at that time, we had bandied about several proposals and I think we were tired of discussing. Somewhat the opposite of what happened with klarius' 10 turns.)



Looking back, you did get some response. Erkon stated his preference for building the Oracle in Timbuktu while I totally misunderstood your proposal. :) To be honest, there were two proposals in the same post, one about the Oracle in London, the other about building FP settler before grabbing Athens. When you later conceded that the second proposal would be unsafe I guess I wrongly interpreted this as a go ahead for the original plan.
Communication is difficult... ;)

To satisfy the thirst for exploration we settle 1 bridge city for now. Probably on the rice as the people cannot wait. This city can build further scouting units on it's own.Since you haven't settled yet, we can still bild Gnejs' Dyes City as far as that goes. With the +5:culture: it will expand to 750 in no yes time. As for Rice City, pros and cons:

On rice:
- bridge made fast
- works gold starting T8
- grows +1:food:/t while working gold
- 51t to pop3 w/o granary
- max pop3 prod: 8h/t (or 10h/t w/org rel and Jewish miss)
- improvements required: mine gold (7t), farm grass(8t), mine hill(7t)

S of rice, expanding borders by T13 for wb:
- bridge made on T17 at earliest
- can't grow while working gold at pop1
- can share cattle for 9-turn growth to pop2
- 26t to pop2
- 35t to pop3, working gold from T26 on
- max pop3 prod: same as on rice
- max pop4 prod: 10h/t (or 12h/t with OR and JM)
- improvements required: mine gold (7t), farm rice(8t), mine hill(7t)

Conclusions:
On rice: works gold 18t sooner
S of rice: full production 16t sooner, bridge might be 4 turns late

Looking back, you did get some response. Erkon stated his preference for building the Oracle in Timbuktu while I totally misunderstood your proposal. :) To be honest, there were two proposals in the same post, one about the Oracle in London, the other about building FP settler before grabbing Athens. When you later conceded that the second proposal would be unsafe I guess I wrongly interpreted this as a go ahead for the original plan.
Communication is difficult... ;)In any case, for me it's not about pointing fingers, but going with the flow and hoping there's some equifinality to these different solutions.

If CRC did what I think they did: beeline CoL and build Pyramids, both completed around 900-750bc, then we're in for a tough challenge. They probably sea-scouted before us. They'll probably get Astro before us, if they need it. If they do, I doubt our early conquering will make a difference. If they don't have an optimal strategy and we persevere, we have a chance.

klarius, did you intend to play another five turns? Else we shall play 10 turns each from now on, since there's a lot to handle each turn set.

Murky, we're not in a hurry since we haven't decided what to do in the next turn set. We just need to check your availability to play when we're finalising the plan, and see if you have time to play.

Regarding the recent events where we as a team didn't arrive at a concensus before playing (such as klarius-the-kwick and gnejs-the-GP-blender :D), these things happens every now and then. The purpose with my Rules and Directives is to avoid the kind of situations when one team member does not have the opportunity to contribute, or feel that his proposals are not fully considered. It's of course a balance since we are limited by time, and we may never fully agree on the actions. Sometimes a member cannot contribute in time, and we'll just have to live with that. klarius' turn set may have looked different and potentially better with more discussion, and that is true for all turn sets (apart from mine :D). We will disagree with each others, and that is necessary in order to learn new things.

Regarding the game: we need to setup a pre-play-plan for Murky, and we have a couple of ideas already. I would prefer if we tried to keep the suggestions together i.e. any pre-play-plan that is changed should be updated. This means that the post is either duplicated in it's entirety, or the same post is edited. What is the best way to do this?

1. Post the complete updated plan each time
2. Reuse the same post and edit until correct

We alse need to keep track of the reasons why we do things. This will be troublesome to manage, but if we fail, it will be very hard for Murky to play.

One alternative is to use the posts on the first page, which are easy to find, but cannot keep history.

Does anyone have a preference?

LC, why build granary in Rice city? It will take forever and we won't have much use for it, will we? Ok, perhaps not "forever", but "a long time" :D

S of rice, expanding borders by T13 for wb:
- bridge made on T17 at earliest
- can't grow while working gold at pop1
- can share cattle for 9-turn growth to pop2
- 26t to pop2
- 35t to pop3, working gold from T26 on
- max pop3 prod: same as on rice
- max pop4 prod: 10h/t (or 12h/t with OR and JM)
- improvements required: mine gold (7t), farm rice(8t), mine hill(7t)


Well, my planning for s of rice was a bit different.
Grow to 2 with cattle as needed.
Work cattle and gold until rice is farmed.
Work cattle rice and gold on size 3.

LC, I how did you get pop3 at T51?

Scenario - gold
Work coast of 8 turns => 16 food (2fpt)
Work gold for 17 turns => 33 food (1fpt)
pop2 at ~T25
Work gold + farm for 18 turns => 36 food (2fpt)
pop3 at ~T43

Scenario - grow/production
Work grass for 8 turns => 24 food (3 fpt)
Work gold for 12 turns => 33 food (1fpt)
pop2 at ~T20
Work gold + farm for 18 turns => 36 food (2fpt)
pop3 at ~T38

Actually, I think the border will expand on T4 => mine complete T9...

With Rice-south I get pop2 at T9, and pop3 at T27, and border expansion on ~T30.

klarius, did you intend to play another five turns? Else we shall play 10 turns each from now on, since there's a lot to handle each turn set.


No, I think 10 turns are enough from now on. And since it is the start of a new round through the roster ...

With Rice-south I get pop2 at T9, and pop3 at T27, and border expansion on ~T30.
In fact pop3 at t26, if you let it have the cow all the time before rice is farmed (3 food overflow pop 1->2).

Still another possibility for rice-south:
Farm rice first.
work cattle, then rice-cattle, then rice-gold-artist
Pop 2 at T9
Pop3 at T15 (wb complete)

No, I think 10 turns are enough from now on. And since it is the start of a new round through the roster ...In that case, how about you playing at least one more turn, when we're good and ready ;), and marking the pre-chops you've already done. Murky will need to know that since, he's going to do a perfect job of MMing, right Murky?

LC, why build granary in Rice city? It will take forever and we won't have much use for it, will we? Ok, perhaps not "forever", but "a long time" :DWhy? Because it's a piece of crap for building galleys and this way it would eventually be able to work coastal tiles with a lh.LC, I how did you get pop3 at T51?
My bad, I forgot about working the coast those first 8 turns... (mixed it up with working the artist, which of course isn't needed on teh rice).

@klarius: What I'm missing from your Rice-S scenarios is when the borders pop the second time. I don't see the point of settling anywhere near the rice if we're not going to use it to explore asap, especially if we're not going to use the gold for quite a while. Compared to a number of choices, Rice City is a mediocre site except for the bridge.

@klarius: What I'm missing from your Rice-S scenarios is when the borders pop the second time. I don't see the point of settling anywhere near the rice if we're not going to use it to explore asap, especially if we're not going to use the gold for quite a while. Compared to a number of choices, Rice City is a mediocre site except for the bridge.
Well, the second border pop depends on a lot.
If we don't convert to confucius and only revolt to representation in the meantime it's T25 in the last scenario.

In that case, how about you playing at least one more turn, when we're good and ready ;), and marking the pre-chops you've already done. Murky will need to know that since, he's going to do a perfect job of MMing, right Murky?
Pre-chops are only on the tiles the workers are currently. The worker actions are canceled, so I don't think that's necessary to do 1 more turn.

If we're not planning to explore beyond the bridge before T25, we can also consider building Gnejsian Dyes GP Farm with the current settler and wb from Athens and plunk one of the next 2 settlers from London on the Rice. If Gnejsian Dyes is as fast as he claims we'll definitely have Astro by 1 ad, right?

If we're not planning to explore beyond the bridge before T25, we can also consider building Gnejsian Dyes GP Farm with the current settler and wb from Athens and plunk one of the next 2 settlers from London on the Rice. If Gnejsian Dyes is as fast as he claims we'll definitely have Astro by 1 ad, right?
I don't see that we want to explore beyond the bridge any faster. Our first wbs should explore our continent. We already know several islands we could go with wbs. Over the bridge is not any better IMO. So I think we need at least 2 wbs go n one circling our island, one going to the island n. But really we can also completely forget the bridge idea. If this should lead anywhere, it's still a logistics challenge, while with astro, 2-3 galleons it's goodbye Ragnar (or whoever) very quick.
If we go this way, I would rather move the settler 1 e for a good production coastal gold city (again up to speed quick with cattle).

We should really decide, if we go the astro way. In this case bridges are useless, because we will not have the production for a galley army before it's complete.
Or gamble on bridges, slow down astronomy for rex and production.

Edit:
Really thinking about it s of rice is a bad compromise.
Either on rice, artist for 2 turns, then gold all the way, to get a wb out of this city earlier than one could come from Athens.
Or E (still don't have the troops, IMO, to go anywhere else safely) and forget about bridges.

Before we settle the Rice city, we need to agree on the future strategy. Either we care about the need for Astronomy i.e. we try to find out if we need it* OR we assume we need it. In the first case, we settle on the rice (or even better, on the spice tile). In the latter case, we settle the city where we really need it, which is probably far away from the rice :cry:. I don't see the need of a culture bridge in 25-30 turns when we already targeting an astronomy based conquest.

I think the current argument of the location of the rice city is an indication that he have very different view of how to win this game. And compromising between two different strategies is worse than stick to one sub-optimal strategy.

* need astronomy means we cannot reach all AI by galley OR we cannot win by domination with galleys.

EDIT: he he, crosspost with klarius :lol:

In that case, how about you playing at least one more turn, when we're good and ready ;), and marking the pre-chops you've already done. Murky will need to know that since, he's going to do a perfect job of MMing, right Murky?

I'll do the best I can. :eek:

* need astronomy means we cannot reach all AI by galley OR we cannot win by domination with galleys.


There is still the question if a galley based conquest-domination is faster than astronomy based, if we have to go long winded galley routes.

(or even better, on the spice tile).
On the spice will have a wb available later, even in the best case. There is also a barb warrior on the peninsula, so we cannot go there w/o the axe from London (1 turn more delay).
And with all these delays we might lose Judaism (which BTW is also good for denial), delaying everything even more because of the need of an artist.

Possibilities for settler:

T0 On Rice
T0 Rice SE
T0 Rice South *(bridge)
T4 Dyes GP Farm (use warrior for barb) *(border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)
T5 On dyes (use warrior for barb)
T5 Ivory
T5 2xgold
T7 FP City *(wheat, border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)

* Founding Judaism has special benefit

I urge you all to consider settling our T0 and T2 settlers on FP City and Ivory City (2 S of horses). Why do I like Ivory so much? Because I feel we still have a lot of production to do in the next so many turns, settler, maybe workers, and units. Ivory City can give us our fastest production boost.

Ivory City can grow decently while chopping a lot of stuff, and will turn into a monster production site. It also provides another :) and horses for chariots when barb axes appear.

I would even risk Judaism to settle FP City on T7 and then complete Mono, the wheat is that valuable for getting our +:health: for GP Farms FP City needs it to work the Gold and 6 scientists, iirc).

Our bridges we can settle and border-expand any time we want.

Another post to the military movements in the next few turns.
We should pillage Carthage, obviously, but then retreat towards our cities to intercept any attacks. The warrior (BTW noted that I forgot to pillage this turn :blush:), should stay where it should have always been (ok, we neded all we had), 1 sw of it's current position. Promote to woodsman and it shouldn't be attacked by archers if fortified in a forest. That prevents Hannibal from hooking up his resources.

The axes sw of Timbuktu should continue to fog bust ahead for the FP settler. I would have the second return to Timbuktu once the settler overtakes.

One of the axes from Carthage moving towards Timbuktu, having a look on Hannibals new city, the other towards FP city.

We need the missionary from Athens ready for founding FP-city. But we cannot really spare an escort (there are barbs sw of Athens). So let him wait on the road (not in Athens at least on the gold).

And really, don't hang around Carthage longer than necessary. Hannibal will build a stack of attack archers then and come pillage Timbuktu or FP city.

Possibilities for settler:

T0 On Rice
T0 Rice South *(bridge)
T4 Dyes GP Farm (use warrior for barb) *(border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)
T5 On dyes (use warrior for barb)
T5 Ivory
T5 2xgold
T7 FP City *(wheat, border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)

* Founding Judaism has special benefit
Again, I don't like that we continue with this gambling on military.
Use warrior for barb warrior is a big gamble.
Moving the settler with axe escort leaving London with only a warrior might lose us improvements.

Edit: And you left out T0 east of current position.

Again, I don't like that we continue with this gambling on military.
Use warrior for barb warrior is a big gamble.
Moving the settler with axe escort leaving London with only a warrior might lose us improvements.

Edit: And you left out T0 east of current position.Updated Rice SE.

I'm thinking the warrior is one turn ahead of the settler, he's in the jungle, the barb will attack him. Aren't those excellent odds on Prince level? (Anyway, I don't like settling that settler there... :p)

London will have a new axe in 3t.

Updated Rice SE.

I'm thinking the warrior is one turn ahead of the settler, he's in the jungle, the barb will attack him. Aren't those excellent odds on Prince level? (Anyway, I don't like settling that settler there... :p)

London will have a new axe in 3t.
Well, you think :p.
Warlords, barbs can be pretty timid attacking at bad odds.

Ivory or FP is probably Ok, as we will not settle a city before we have another axe in London and there are more troops in this direction (axe could return handing over settler to next axe). I'm still not enthusiastic about twice gold now (maybe there's already a barb axe sitting on the tile now).

If Athens is going to build the Pyramids there is no hurry with settling any inland production/forest city. But I don't like the GP odds in Timbuktu at all, so I suggest that we get two more GP farms (besides Athens) up asap. FP city is the obvious one and this is where the Timbuktu settler should go. Then I would like to suggest settling the Spice peninsula, since it will have cost less in maintenance and can work fish, banana and cow for 4 scientists, 5 with a banana plantation. Finally, I think the 2xgold site south of London is too good to pass up.

This plan requires two more settlers. We could build one each in London and Timbuktu in the coming turnset while throwing in a couple of axes also. Speaking of which, when we have finished pillaging Hannibals resources I would like to find his two workers and/or station an axe at each of his two cities. We should also have two-three spare axes in the area for taking care of any escorted settlers.It sure sounds to me like we need an inland production/forest city to follow your rainbow! :crazyeye: Considering Athens is busy wb>Pyramids and Timbuktu needs to finish the settler and slow-build a granary while working 3 scientists for the next 15-20 turns, IF we want to finish maths in that time.

@klarius: Situation: Our axe is waiting on a hill when the settler arrives. The axe moves SE to the forest, so the settler is alone on the hill. Question: Can a barb spawn during the interturn AND capture our settler?

@klarius: Situation: Our axe is waiting on a hill when the settler arrives. The axe moves SE to the forest, so the settler is alone on the hill. Question: Can a barb spawn during the interturn AND capture our settler?
No, that's not civ3, where such things happen. Barbs do never spawn in the visibility zone of any unit or city. Doesn't need to be a military unit. That's also why one should never really escort a settler, but fog bust ahead.

I have a theory--The reason Alex hasn't netted the other clams is that he's landlocked on Antartica. So that workboat is going to net those clams. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: T7 updates
Alex WB continued north.Okay, now my theory is that Alex's wb was going north because it had gone all the way around to Hannibal's border hoping to net those clams, but turned back without open borders.

In other words, our S scouting wb ain't going far. (according to my theory :cool:)

Possibilities for settler:

T0 On Rice
T0 Rice SE
T0 Rice South *(bridge)
T4 Dyes GP Farm (use warrior for barb) *(border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)
T5 On dyes (use warrior for barb)
T5 Ivory
T5 2xgold
T7 FP City *(wheat, border expansion w/o gene-pool dilution)

* Founding Judaism has special benefit
Before we can come to an agreement, we need to get an idea of where we're heading. Are we targeting Astro no matter what? If so, we first need our GP farms up and running, then production. Any site that can run 2-4 scientists with potential production is fine with me. I just don't want to compromise. Either we attempt to win this game without Astro and start with that right now. Else we focus on getting those GS's...

@klarius: I give up. I can't figure out how to escort the TImbuktu settler to FP City by T7 without using a unit from London or Athens and leaving the Timbuktu axe by Timbuktu.

@klarius: I give up. I can't figure out how to escort the TImbuktu settler to FP City by T7 without using a unit from London or Athens and leaving the Timbuktu axe by Timbuktu.
Well, the Timbuktu axe isn't staying, just wants a fast way to return. That's why the workers are roading the tile the axe is on next. This is already complete for the settler to use. The axe stays where it is now and the settler overtakes. If there is a barb, we can still cover it with the axe, which is no problem, if there is no danger for Timbuktu until then, due to the large culture boundary.