#3 out of FP city t69
#2,#4 out of Athens t47, t80

(#2,#3 out of Athens t47, t72)
(#4 out of FP city t78)

If we are lucky we get 3 scientists by t69. This seems about equal with using Athens for #1 (t39), FP/Spice for #2 (t58), Athens for #3 (t68), but without risking a prophet.

Or we could do
Athens #1 (t39)
Athens #2 (t55)
FP city #3 (t69) or Spicy city (t70)

I think I would rather avoid the Prophet if at all possible.
Well, an engineer late isn't any better.
Another idea is Athens #1, Timbuktu #2 (at decent odds), Athens #3 and a sure scientist #4 out of FP/spice city, if still necessary.

...
Conclusion: We don't need any stinking libraries. :)
...

Burn the libraries! Make a bonfire worthy of the Gods!!!

Hmm, I'm so confused. Either klarius is a genius, or a fool... Does revolting to OrgRel save us turns on the Pyramids or cost us turns?

Could you all please help me with a summary? Have I understood this correct:

Settle FP-city asap.
Settle RiceCity (somewhere close to Rice) - klarius OR
Settle Dye-City Spice-City - Gnejs OR
Settle Ivory-city - LC

Then we need to agree if Timbuktu will work scientists or not (focus on settlers or research), also considering the risk of generating a Great Priest (:eek:)

Then we have a build sequence in Athens (WB->Pyramids?)

Finally we have the build sequence of London (axes?)

Apart from the above we have a healthy amount of MM, that will drive Murky back to the dance floor... :lol:

Impossible? Merde! Mon dieu... Show some faith, you heathen! Timbuktu will switch to scientist when the pyramids are complete. Until then it will churn out settlers...

Research path: maths, sailing, calendar, construction. Skip lightbulbing Machinery. Insert Mono wherever it fits.

PS: the core cities will either be abandoned to the barbs when these cities are of no use, or will run merchants. Don't worry...

#1000
:cool:

Doh! How could I miss.... :mad:

:groucho: During my turnset I'm building nothing but courthouses and temples...:groucho:

Gnejs is pretty convincing. Erkon, is he drunk off his a$$? Since we don't want a late ge, sounds like the Athens>Athens>FP City is the best of the best.

If we're freeing up TImbuktu for production, then I'm not in such a hurry to get Ivory CIty.

Gnejs, have you tried your unrevolting plan including completing Mono after settling Spcie City? No artists that way. And our opponent doesn't get the extra cultural defense.

What I see more and more is that 2 more scientist cities don't help.
So it's either FP or spice.
If we settle FP, we shouldn't settle spice. Then, IMO, the best use for the settler near London is a city near gold to speed up math.
That's either on the rice if we are still interested in the bridge, or SE for a decent production city long term.
Any other long term valuable cities delay math and put the settler or London in danger.

Organised will not speed up pyramids, but also not delay much. IMO, the "forget about stinking libraries" is as wrong as the constantly ignoring forges, so I still think organised has a value.
I didn't see any breakdown how we get to the beakers we need. Running scientists for 3 GS is only 1800 beakers (3600 if we have 2 more cities near the treshold). Lately we seem to have added construction (750) and machinery (1502) as research goals to our initial estimate.

For Athens, I think we should really go wb, granary pyramids. Pyramids directly doesn't help much as we are limited by pre-chops anyway and granary comes at about the right time (no matter if organised or not).

London build order (depending on all other decisions):
axe-axe-(N*axe)-settler N=0..infinity

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

Did you mean here "intercontinental ambushes" ? :rolleyes:

Well, an engineer late isn't any better.
Another idea is Athens #1, Timbuktu #2 (at decent odds), Athens #3 and a sure scientist #4 out of FP/spice city, if still necessary.

Or Athens #1, Spice city #2, FP city #3, (Athens #4).

:groucho: During my turnset I'm building nothing but courthouses and temples...:groucho:

Gnejs is pretty convincing. Erkon, is he drunk off his a$$? Since we don't want a late ge, sounds like the Athens>Athens>FP City is the best of the best.

If we're freeing up TImbuktu for production, then I'm not in such a hurry to get Ivory CIty.

Gnejs, have you tried your unrevolting plan including completing Mono after settling Spcie City? No artists that way. And our opponent doesn't get the extra cultural defense.

We delay Maths by one-two turns, but otherwise it is ok I guess.

What I see more and more is that 2 more scientist cities don't help.
So it's either FP or spice. Why not both?
If we settle FP, we shouldn't settle spice. Then, IMO, the best use for the settler near London is a city near gold to speed up math.
That's either on the rice if we are still interested in the bridge, or SE for a decent production city long term.
Any other long term valuable cities delay math and put the settler or London in danger.

Organised will not speed up pyramids, but also not delay much. IMO, the "forget about stinking libraries" is as wrong as the constantly ignoring forges, so I still think organised has a value. klarius, could you please elaborate. Did you see my calculation about the break-even of a forge? I think the break-even of a library will be pretty poor also considering that we need to restrict growth in FP city or Athens in order to build it soon enough to matter.
I didn't see any breakdown how we get to the beakers we need. Running scientists for 3 GS is only 1800 beakers (3600 if we have 2 more cities near the treshold). Lately we seem to have added construction (750) and machinery (1502) as research goals to our initial estimate.

2640 beakers from scientists in FP city, Spice city, Athens by turn 64. If we run 5 scientists in Timbuktu for the final 20 turns (we will probably have calendar and much food by then) this is another 600 beakers. Settle 2xgold city and 2xgold city north and we might be able to output 30 beakers/turn from commerce which gives another 1920 beakers. This is 5160 beakers by turn 64.

For Athens, I think we should really go wb, granary pyramids. Pyramids directly doesn't help much as we are limited by pre-chops anyway and granary comes at about the right time (no matter if organised or not).

Agree here. Put 70 hammers into a granary and chop a forest outside fat cross for the final 20 hammers.

London build order (depending on all other decisions):
axe-axe-(N*axe)-settler N=0..infinity

BTW, I would definitely like IW before construction. CR2 swords might well be enough for our first ambush and we should cut some jungle, like on the hills near London.

Let's wait and see. IW is nice because I am sure it will pop us Iron at Timbuktu.

Beaker count revisited

These are the essential techs:

Mathematics 536 +20% = 447
Sailing 214 +20% = 178
Calendar 750 +40% = 536
IW 429 +20% = 358
Compass 858 +20% = 715
Metal Casting 965 +40% = 689
Macinery 1501 +20% = 1251
Optics 1287 +40% = 919
Astronomy 4290 +40% = 3064

Then we have a few optional:
Hunting 85 = 85
Archery 128 +20% = 107
Construction 750 +40% = 536

The grand total summing up all techs is 8885 beakers. If we lightbulb astronomy using 2 GS the total is 5821 beakers. If we also lightbulb Optics we are down to 4902 beakers. If we instead lightbulb machinery we need 4570 beakers.

Compare this to the 5160 beakers that I estimate we can have by T64 if we settle Spice city and FP city asap. My conclusion is that we can have enough research without either libraries or lighthouses, just a simple granary in each of Athens, FP city and Spice city.

Also, at T64 we will have about 20 scientists running for 120 beakers per turn (+say 30 from commerce). We can self-research Optics in 6 turns...

End of the OR confusion?
This is the same basic problem that Obormot talked about with building Parthenon when you're a productive Civ. The 25% OR bonus is halved for builds that get the 100% stone bonus because you're only getting 12.5% bonus on the final production value each turn. So building the Pyramids, ideally it takes you 16 turns to recoup the hammers lost for missing 2 turns from revolts. At 14h/t (not ideal, now it's down to a 10.7% bonus) it would take us 19 turns.

But there's a catch. We're also getting a 11h/chop bonus. 5 chops @11h/chop = 55h. So we actually overtake the non-OR solution on the 3rd turn (that is, after the two turns of revolt).

But, there's another catch. How much do the 2 turns of revolt plus finishing Mono delay researching Maths? If the delay takes us past the time it takes to chop the 5 forests, then the OR solution is slower by that many turns, even though its hammers are already [(3h/t) * (# of turns) - 1h] ahead.

I haven't figured out the delay, because it involves other decisions, such as where to settle and how that affects our research.

Beaker count revisited

These are the essential techs:

Calendar 750 +40% = 536
Metal Casting 965 +40% = 689
Optics 1287 +40% = 919
Astronomy 4290 +40% = 3064

Construction 750 +40% = 536Correct me if I'm wrong, klarius, but my understanding of the mechanics is that these techs all get a 20% bonus, not 40%. As I understand it, you get 20% for each path to a tech you have followed (going back only one level to determine paths). You get 40% if you have followed 2 alternate paths to a tech in advance (Masonry and Priesthood have 2 paths). 60% for 3 paths (like Writing).

The above techs have only 1 path, each involving 2 required (not alternate) techs in the preceding level.

We can self-research Optics in 6 turns...I don't know why you guys can't SEE this :p, but we want Optics as early as possible, because then our caravels can get a head start on circumnavigation. We also want to have klarius' triremes on each side of our continent, ready for upgrading (65:gold: each). (East side in farthest east cultural borders (Timbuktu, Carthage or ...?)

THis means that it's useful for us to finish our :science: research long before we've finished our lightbulb creation.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to include this in the Original BC Astro Challenge. So sue me. ;)

If we re-visit klarius' discovery:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/kl_wlsgotm6_2.jpg

We can assume that this is Ragnar's capital after his 150:culture: expansion. (Gnejs, you can check this by examining your 1780bc and 1750 bc saves, I think, assuming the warrior got there by 1780bc).

Thus, galleons will transport our units in 1 turn. With circumnavigation, we will gain 1 turn movement with our units after we capture his city, because the galleon will enter the city, units disembark same turn. Scratch that, I forgot that his borders would have to extend to ocean tiles in that case. BUt it would still be interesting for you to check teh saves, Gnejs, because his capital might be inland or on a fjord. ;)

End of the OR confusion?
This is the same basic problem that Obormot talked about with building Parthenon when you're a productive Civ. The 25% OR bonus is halved for builds that get the 100% stone bonus because you're only getting 12.5% bonus on the final production value each turn. So building the Pyramids, ideally it takes you 16 turns to recoup the hammers lost for missing 2 turns from revolts. At 14h/t (not ideal, now it's down to a 10.7% bonus) it would take us 19 turns.

But there's a catch. We're also getting a 11h/chop bonus. 5 chops @11h/chop = 55h. So we actually overtake the non-OR solution on the 3rd turn (that is, after the two turns of revolt).

But, there's another catch. How much do the 2 turns of revolt plus finishing Mono delay researching Maths? If the delay takes us past the time it takes to chop the 5 forests, then the OR solution is slower by that many turns, even though its hammers are already [(3h/t) * (# of turns) - 1h] ahead.

I haven't figured out the delay, because it involves other decisions, such as where to settle and how that affects our research.

Completion of the Pyramids is limited by the time that we can complete Maths and bring in our chops, not by production. I get granary+Pyramids t19 without OR, t21 with OR. We will also be delaying axes and/or settlers out of London and Timbuktu by two turns and delaying our research towards our end goal by three-four turns (could become more if we take into account putting Athens into growth mode 2 turns later, settling all future cities 2 turns later etc).

See my beaker analysis above: We don't need any libraries, nor do we need any lighthouses.
See my hammer analysis further up: We don't need any forges.
See my granary analysis somewhere up there also: We need to chop two forests for quick granaries in FP city, Spicy city. OR doesn't change this!

Conclusion: Organized Religion should be skipped

Ok, guys. I take a few days of SGOTM-vacation to try to complete BOTM1, and what happens? Everyone enters freekin builder mode! :eek: Let's see about the suggestions so far (I love brainstorming :lol:)

Tech Math asap - check
Build pyramids asap - check
Tech Sailing & Calendar - check
Tech Construction when suitable - check
Tech pre-requisites for astro - check
Lightbulb astronomy - check
Lightbulb optics is we have an extra GS (3 instead of 2) - check
Build cities that are good for scientists / commerce - check
Build cities that are good for hammers / our army - check
Conquer the world - check

So far so good. What about buildings?
Granaries - probably good for most cities
Barracks - only useful in land unit cities that are dedicated to build units
Libraries - only useful in cities that will run 5-6 scientists
Lighthouse - perhaps useful in one or two cities
Did I miss any?

What about units?
Settlers - check
Workers - check
Axes - check
Cats - check
WE - check
Warriors for garrison - check
WB for exploration - check
Galley/Caravel/Galleon - check
Did I miss any?

What is complicated? We build the cities that can run scientists, then the cities that can produce units. To do this we need settlers, workers, axes and warriors. When we have astro, we invade and win this game. Any strategy that deviated from this strategy is a poor one :D

Finally, the TIMING: while we accumulate GPP for the GS, we build cats and WE. As soon as we have completed Construction, there is thus no time for settlers and workers, only units. So, we tech:
Maths
Sailing
Calendar
Construction
MC, IW, Compass, Machinery, Optics, Astronomy

Any investment we do must pay back BEFORE the astronomy moment. Revolting once must thus put us in a better position at astro-moment. And all the cities we plan to build needs to be in place before Construction, because then we don't have time to build any more settlers. And the unit building cities needs the granaries/barracks as well before construction-moment.

I support anything that follow these rough plans. The most obvious way forward is to:
Build the pyramids asap in Athens while we grow to size=large
Build units in London (no scientists)
Build settlers in Timbuktu (no scientists)
Settle the conf miss in the next GP-farm.

Did I miss anything? Please convince me that I'm wrong :D

I fully agree with our captain (for once)

Finally, the TIMING: while we accumulate GPP for the GS, we build cats and WE. As soon as we have completed Construction, there is thus no time for settlers and workers, only units. This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our :commerce:.

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile :gold: and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our :commerce:.

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile :gold: and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

The key to getting the research we need seems to be to
1) Grow all three Fp farms quickly by working max food and no hammers
2) Switch to scientists getting max beakers and gpp points and no hammers

Sure, we can build a library also but that would be at the expense of either slowing growth for a bunch of turns, or having less turns of working scientists. In either case we end up with less gpp points, and I would bet that we also end up with less beakers after 64 turns. The gain from a library comes later, which in our case is too late if we plan to stop researching after astronomy and construction.

London axe>worker>settler builds a 2xgold galley on T26 and cattle are pastured on T33.

The key to getting the research we need seems to be to
1) Grow all three Fp farms quickly by working max food and no hammers
2) Switch to scientists getting max beakers and gpp points and no hammers

Sure, we can build a library also but that would be at the expense of either slowing growth for a bunch of turns, or having less turns of working scientists. In either case we end up with less gpp points, and I would bet that we also end up with less beakers after 64 turns. The gain from a library comes later, which in our case is too late if we plan to stop researching after astronomy and construction.Factor in chopping the library in Athens, maybe even in FP City if you have the health. EDIT: Note we're not discussing Payback here, we're discussing Speed. The library hammers are at the expense of other production if we maintain maximum growth.

Plus, if we can net those other clams in Athens...

This is not necessarily true. The more units we build in advance, the higher our unit cost, thus slowing our research, since Gnejs is using our :commerce:.

Steenkin' libraries get us to 0% research sooner, thus enabling us to stockpile :gold: and units and get our caravels out sooner.

Building another production city might enable us to build units at a faster rate just before Astro so we don't accumulate idle unit costs.

We need to strike a balance.

If we research Maths, Sailing, Calendar, IW and Construction first, and then start building units, we then have about 3000 beakers left to research. That will take 33 turns if we run 15 scientist. Are you saying that in 33 turns, we can

Build a settler
Found the city
Build granary
Build Barracks
Build a couple of units
Move the units to a suitable coast


The upkeep cost on prince is peanuts. 20 units will cost us what? 10 coins? What's the purpose with rushing to Astro if we don't have the units to fill the galleons?

In my world, we don't rely on coins for research after Calendar. Only scientists. The gold is saved for upgrades and to fund unit upkeep and supply.

One Library cost us 180 hammers with OR. That's two War Elephants. That's one captured city. And the gain is 33 * 5 * 6 * 0.25 = 250 beakers, lets say 300 beakers to have a margin. That's three turns of research. Hmm, three turns... Hmm... You may be right... But where do we get the hammers to build the libraries? :confused:

Factor in chopping the library in Athens, maybe even in FP City if you have the health. EDIT: Note we're not discussing Payback here, we're discussing Speed. The library hammers are at the expense of other production if we maintain maximum growth.

Plus, if we can net those other clams in Athens...

Well, maybe in Athens then. A library completed before we switch to scientists is worth 300-400 beakers (25% of 1200 scientist beakers +commerce). Shaves off two turns of research.


FP city has 1 hammer per turn at max growth and will hold two of our workers occupied for 30+ turns just farming and chopping the granary. Anyway, a library in FP city would only gain us 150-200 beakers (25% of 600 beakers plus commerce) which equals one turn of research.


So we could spend 270 hammers to gain 3 turns of 0% research which I estimate will allow us to upgrade three triremes to caravels. Or we could skip the libraries and spend the same number of forests and worker turns (though not in FP city obviously :)) on chopping three caravels directly. Just as good, right?

Athens forest tiles:
Pre-Maths:
1 @ 2D(iagonal) = 16h (for granary)

Post-maths:
6 @ 44h
1 @ 36h (+ borders)
4 @ 20h
3 @ 14h

So we could spend 270 hammers to gain 3 turns of 0% research which I estimate will allow us to upgrade three triremes to caravels. Or we could skip the libraries and spend the same number of forests and worker turns (though not in FP city obviously :)) on chopping three caravels directly. Just as good, right?A blistering "No!" is my answer. We need are caravels positioned at our farthest possible E and W cultural locations when upgraded. Not down in Athen's A$$.

What base rate for research/turn are you using? Because you need to use the rate at when we're using the libraries, not necessarily the final rate.

If we research Maths, Sailing, Calendar, IW and Construction first, and then start building units, we then have about 3000 beakers left to research. That will take 33 turns if we run 15 scientist. Are you saying that in 33 turns, we can

Build a settler
Found the city
Build granary
Build Barracks
Build a couple of units
Move the units to a suitable coast
Now you're starting to get at my reason to build Ivory City now!

So is it possbly better to build Ivory City now and use Timbuktu instead of Spice City for research?

Plus, I assume that we'll continue producing units after we have researched Astro. Or were you planning to stop that then as well??? ;)

A blistering "No!" is my answer. We need are caravels positioned at our farthest possible E and W cultural locations when upgraded. Not down in Athen's A$$.

What base rate for research/turn are you using? Because you need to use the rate at when we're using the libraries, not necessarily the final rate.

How many tiles further west than Athens did you have in mind?


I was imagining having the libraries in place before switching to scientists. 300 gpp = 600 beakers in FP city, library gives an additional 150 beakers (+some more from commerce*science rate). 600 gpp = 1200 beakers in Athens, library gives an additional 300 beakers (+some more from commerce*science rate).

Now you're starting to get at my reason to build Ivory City now!

So is it possbly better to build Ivory City now and use Timbuktu instead of Spice City for research?



Hmm, but then why not skip FP city and use Spice city instead? This frees up 60 worker turns and we can have Ivory city up in no time.

If we research Maths, Sailing, Calendar, IW and Construction first, and then start building units, we then have about 3000 beakers left to research. That will take 33 turns if we run 15 scientist. Are you saying that in 33 turns, we can

Build a settler
Found the city
Build granary
Build Barracks
Build a couple of units
Move the units to a suitable coast

What you saying that London and Timbuktu are going to build in 62 turns (after current settler and axe)?

z axes for homeland defense
2xgold settler
2xgold axe
2xgold worker
x WEs
y cats
anything else?

How many tiles further west than Athens did you have in mind?


I was imagining having the libraries in place before switching to scientists. 300 gpp = 600 beakers in FP city, library gives an additional 150 beakers (+some more from commerce*science rate). 600 gpp = 1200 beakers in Athens, library gives an additional 300 beakers (+some more from commerce*science rate).Spice City cultural borders are 7 tiles W of Athens city center. But we could use those hammers for galleons or whatever. I get your point. In any case we're going to upgrade 2 well-positioned triremes to caravels, if at all possible.

What I meant was the science rate per turn you're using to say 200:science: = 1 turn. Earlier on, our rate will be lower. So are you sure you're calculating the actually earlier date for Optics? (I'm just checking, not doubting)

Hmm, but then why not skip FP city and use Spice city instead? This frees up 60 worker turns and we can have Ivory city up in no time.The basic question here, imo, is how much does a GProph set us back in your scenario? Is the risk worth it?

TImbuktu gets up to 4 scientists really fast, has the extra 2 GP pts. YOu say we're going to be researching OPtics in 6 turns only. Does the GProph kill us if we still have 2 GSs? But then, what if we pop GProph>GE???

Spice City cultural borders are 7 tiles W of Athens city center. But we could use those hammers for galleons or whatever. I get your point. In any case we're going to upgrade 2 well-positioned triremes to caravels, if at all possible.

What I meant was the science rate per turn you're using to say 200:science: = 1 turn. Earlier on, our rate will be lower. So are you sure you're calculating the actually earlier date for Optics? (I'm just checking, not doubting)

I don't know. In my scenario our research rate will really surge in the last 20-30 turns when we switch to scientists in three or four cities at roughly the same time. Assuming 150 beakers/turn final research rate and that optics is the final tech before Astro I don't see optics happening until just some turns before Astronomy. So we might even skip the caravels...

The basic question here, imo, is how much does a GProph set us back in your scenario? Is the risk worth it?

TImbuktu gets up to 4 scientists really fast, has the extra 2 GP pts. YOu say we're going to be researching OPtics in 6 turns only. Does the GProph kill us if we still have 2 GSs? But then, what if we pop GProph>GE???

Hmm, skipping either of FP city and Spice city results in too few beakers for us. I was counting on an extra 4-5 scientists in Timbuktu+London for the final 20 turns anyway.

Gproph for 50 turns = 250 gold + 30*3 representation beakers = a gain of 340. Compared to a GS popping Optics it sets us back around 600 beakers or 4 turns. In addition it would delay our GS#3 by a turn or two unless we could somehow change the order of GPs popping in Athens and the other GP farm.

So we might even skip the caravels...Map width 84 tiles. Our cultural extremes are 21 tiles apart (Carthage 4 tiles further E). 2 caravels cover a maximum of 6 tiles per turn. 63/6=10-11 turns minimum. Not bad. Plus, we need to discover all the AIs.

Edit #2: 6 scientists gives up GS#1 on t39 and GS#3 on t64 (just 1 turn late for LC's challenge...).Gnejs, are you by any chance forgetting the +2:gp: from the Pyramids in Athens? t64 - t39 = 25t. 450:gp:/25t = 18:gp:/t.

I think your times should be t38 and t61...2 turns early for the challenge... :goodjob:

EDIT: TImbuktu also has an extra 2:gp:, of course.

What you saying that London and Timbuktu are going to build in 62 turns (after current settler and axe)?

z axes for homeland defense
2xgold settler
2xgold axe
2xgold worker
x WEs
y cats
anything else?


In principle, yes. At construction-moment, I think we need to have settled five more cities compared to now (three new settlers). There are many configurations. Just choose from Spice City, Rice City, Ivory City, Stone City (west of Timbuktu), Gold City north of Athens, Gold City north of Timbuktu, etc. Perhaps two GP farms and three production cities (both land and naval units).

So, at construction-moment (about 30-40 turns from now), London and Timbuktu have build three more settlers (excluding the one in the pipe) and 8-10 axes. Then both London and Timbuktu switches to WEs and cats. Research and GS is handled by Athens and the two new GP-farms.

I think it more important to get the GP-farms up and running than the production cities, since they need to be fully operational earlier than the production cites, and they take more effort to be fully operational...

So, at construction-moment (about 30-40 turns from now), London and Timbuktu have build three more settlers (excluding the one in the pipe) and 8-10 axes.
3 settlers @ 150 :food:hammers: = 450 :food:hammers:
8 axes @ 52 :hammers: = 416:hammers:

London = 14fh/t; 14h/t
TImbuktu = 12fh/t; 10h/t

450/14fh/t = 32t
416/10h/t = 42t

450/12fh/t = 38t
416/14h/t = 30t

Got workers? :lol:

EDIT: Throw in Ivory City East @ 7FC forest tiles. At pop1 with cattle pastured and 1 worker available, Ivory city is producing 4h/t + 44h/6t = 68h/6t = 11h/t! Or: 8fh/t +...= 92fh/6t = 15fh/t!!! (Needs math and borders popped.)

@Gnejs: What happens to your plans if Spice City gets its cattle pastured later on?

Our GP farms will become obsolete once we reach Astronomy. Why not let FP city and Spice city double as production cities by whipping them down to size 1, say 14-15 pop = 675 hammers = 7.5 war elephants or 11 catapults...

Meanwhile, Athens could whip some galleons for us.

Priorities for our units at Hannibal:
Warrior: pillage copper, sentry in forest
Axe1: pillage horses, pillage road, pillage road (?) move N
Axe2: HUNT DOWN HANNIBAL'S WORKER!!!

Our GP farms will become obsolete once we reach Astronomy. Why not let FP city and Spice city double as production cities by whipping them down to size 1, say 14-15 pop = 675 hammers = 7.5 war elephants or 11 catapults...

Meanwhile, Athens could whip some galleons for us.

I knew you were drunk last night. You're repeating yourself... ;) :goodjob:(Good idea).

As for the upgrade, we could perhaps reassign all our 20 or so scientists into merchants. Or we switch back to slavery and whip those galleys in Athens and Spice city. We will have 10 surplus scientists in those two cities = 450 hammers or almost 4 galleons... :D

3 settlers @ 150 :food:hammers: = 450 :food:hammers:
8 axes @ 52 :hammers: = 416:hammers:

London = 14fh/t; 14h/t
TImbuktu = 12fh/t; 10h/t

450/14fh/t = 32t
416/10h/t = 42t

450/12fh/t = 38t
416/14h/t = 30t

Got workers? :lol:
...

LC, I don't understand... :confused: Did you just confirm my ideas or did you contradict them? Both cities can probably be double rushed twice, once for a granary and second for a worker each. I haven't done the exact calculations, but you get the point me thinks :D

I knew you were drunk last night. You're repeating yourself... ;) :goodjob:(Good idea).

LOL! You noticed? :)

Btw, notice how the whip yield has gone up 50% and Athens has been spared. ;)

LC, I don't understand... :confused: Did you just confirm my ideas or did you contradict them? Both cities can probably be double rushed twice, once for a granary and second for a worker each. I haven't done the exact calculations, but you get the point me thinks :D

How do you rush without slavery? :lol:

Ok folks, this is a great debate and all. But Murky has either fallen asleep out of boredom or gone on another of those "vacations". Perhaps we should try to conclude our brainstorming and write down a long-term plan as well as 10 turn MM scheme. (If you are ok with this, Murky?)

LC, I don't understand... :confused: Did you just confirm my ideas or did you contradict them? Both cities can probably be double rushed twice, once for a granary and second for a worker each. I haven't done the exact calculations, but you get the point me thinks :DHow you rush without slavery? :lol:

I was just thinking your ideas through. ALone, they can't really do it, because of the lack of workers. Together with Ivory City asap, there's some chance, methinks. So the question for Gnejs is whether the 2xgold galley can be delayed or not.

Gnejs: Are you working 6 scientists in Athens? If so, how without a lh?

Gnejs: Are you working 6 scientists in Athens? If so, how without a lh?

Size 10, working:
city +2f
fish +5f
sheep +5f
clam +4f
another tile +?f
-20f

Need four more food. You're right, we need either a lighthouse or a workboat for the last clam.

Btw, about the Spice city cows, delaying these costs us in growth and gpp points (vague answer? I can't be bothered to work it out now... ;)). But we could delay the galley for 3-4 turns if we send two workers on it instead of one. The Athens workers should be finished with chopping the Pyramids by that time. We might be able to use one of them.

Ok folks, this is a great debate and all. But Murky has either fallen asleep out of boredom or gone on another of those "vacations". Perhaps we should try to conclude our brainstorming and write down a long-term plan as well as 10 turn MM scheme. (If you are ok with this, Murky?)

:lol: I wish. :mischief:

I've gotten busy at work again. The accountants are getting restless because of the tax season.

A detailed 10 turn MM scheme would be helpful.

Btw, about the Spice city cows, delaying these costs us in growth and gpp points (vague answer? I can't be bothered to work it out now... ;)). But we could delay the galley for 3-4 turns if we send two workers on it instead of one. The Athens workers should be finished with chopping the Pyramids by that time. We might be able to use one of them.What I meant is this: In your scheme, can we sacrifice some of the :science: from Spice City and still get the required 2nd GS from FP City on time? This would enable us to go like this:

London: axe(3t)>Ivory settler(10t)>axe
TImbuktu: Settler(2t)>Ivory worker(~7t)>axe

The Ivory worker meets an axe escort coming up from Carthage and starts chopping an Ivory City product. From there, we figure out the 2xgold settler from 1 of those 3 cities. Or we chop a galley from Athens that will be late some number of turns, although it would be better to chop the lh if clams aren't accessible.

Axe2: HUNT DOWN HANNIBAL'S WORKER!!!
It's impossible to get an AI worker with a single axe. No use trying. Even 2 need some unpredictable lucky timing.
Really, people, get away, let him build settlers and intercept them for workers.

It's impossible to get an AI worker with a single axe. No use trying. Even 2 need some unpredictable lucky timing.
Really, people, get away, let him build settlers and intercept them for workers.With all that jungle we can get lucky.

Axe2 moves NW then N. Axe 1 does his pillaging, then goes to the near N side of Carthage. Either the worker is about to return to Carthage, tail between its legs, or its roading to 2nd City or it at 2nd City. If between, then the 2 axes will have it pinched. If it escapes into the 2nd city, then 2 fortified axes and a warrior can capture the city and we earn a worker, which is more expensive than losing 1 axe thatwe shouldn't lose according to the odds (EDIT: lol-Not. I was thinking axe is 6 base strength, not 5...).

Anyway, what I'[m suggesting is in line with what you recommended earlier, except it includes an extra, very important element. 1 worker now is far more important than later. Any archers we have caused Hannibal to start now, he has already started. We'll be gone soon enough.

With all that jungle we can get lucky.

Axe2 moves NW then N. Axe 1 does his pillaging, then goes to the near N side of Carthage. Either the worker is about to return to Carthage, tail between its legs, or its roading to 2nd City or it at 2nd City. If between, then the 2 axes will have it pinched. If it escapes into the 2nd city, then 2 fortified axes and a warrior can capture the city and we earn a worker, which is more expensive than losing 1 axe that we shouldn't lose according to the odds.


A worker starts to run if you are 4 tiles away and he knows it (because you are in or adjacent to culture). I really don't see how you get one.
And not again the 2 axes + warrior against probably 2 archers. Even if it's 2 axes and warrior against archer and warrior, I wouldn't do it. We risk to loose all our free moving units.
BTW, I think that the culture we see means that the city is on a hill.

Either he appears in Carthagein the next turn or two or he's elsewhere. Hannibal has 4 archers and 1 warrior right now. Period. Check his power graph.

Anyway even if we forget capturing the second city, he might be roading in between. I've seen it a lot.

Anyway even if we forget capturing the second city, he might be roading in between. I've seen it a lot.
Sure, but how do you sneak up to the worker. Between Hannibal's cities are everywhere paths that a worker can run away towards a city, letting an axe no chance.
You would have to sneak up from 2 sides staying away from both city cultures all the time. And arrive just in time so the worker is right between the cities.

What I meant is this: In your scheme, can we sacrifice some of the :science: from Spice City and still get the required 2nd GS from FP City on time? This would enable us to go like this:

London: axe(3t)>Ivory settler(10t)>axe
TImbuktu: Settler(2t)>Ivory worker(~7t)>axe

The Ivory worker meets an axe escort coming up from Carthage and starts chopping an Ivory City product. From there, we figure out the 2xgold settler from 1 of those 3 cities. Or we chop a galley from Athens that will be late some number of turns, although it would be better to chop the lh if clams aren't accessible.

Perhaps we can.

With a pasture Spice city can run 4 scientists at size 7, 5 scientists at size 8 with a plantation.
Without a pasture we could work 3.6 scientists at size 6 (two turns working cow, +6 food, three turns working scientist, -6 food).
With the plantation we could work 4.6 scientists at size 7 using the same kind of tile switching.

This is assuming that we don't need Spice city for the GS points. Then we lose 0.4 scientist * 25 turns * 6 beakers = 60 beakers. I think the slower growth may be balanced quite nicely with the need to grow one less pop. :)

Edit: The same actually applies to FP city also.
It can work 6 scientists at size 11 (5 FP+city = +-0 food)
It can work 5.67 scientists at size 10 (4 FP+city for two turns, -4 food, 5 FP+city for one turn, +4 food)
It can work 5 scientists at size 9
It can work 4.67 scientists at size 8
It can work 4 scientists at size 7
It can work 3.67 scientists at size 6
It can work 3 scientists at size 5
It can work 2.67 scientists at size 4
It can work 2 scientists at size 3
It can work 1.67 scientists at size 2
It can work 1 scientist at size 1 (I just had to continue all the way down to size 1 to make sure the numbers matched :))

Wow, I haven't realized this before.

Erkons Plan for Astro-BC (again)

Settle FP-city and Ivory City
Settle Gold City (1 NE of gold south of London)
Settle Stone City (Cow, Rice, Stone west of Timbuktu)

London: axe(3t)>Gold settler(10t)>axe
TImbuktu: Settler(2t)>worker(8t)>axe
Athens: WB->granary->pyramids->Library

Timbuktu and London will build another settler, axes and worker(s) until IW is discovered, then switch to Swords, and later War Elephants and Cats.

Research path: maths, sailing, calendar, IW, construction, ->astro. Insert Mono wherever it fits.

Athens will employ 5 scientists after pyramids (generate GS #1 after 10 turns and #2 after another 20 turns). FP city will employ 5 scientists when size 9 has been reached (generate GS #3 after 30 turns.)

Erkons Plan for Astro-BC (again)

Settle FP-city and Ivory City
Settle Gold City (1 NE of gold south of London)
Settle Stone City (Cow, Rice, Stone west of Timbuktu)

London: axe(3t)>Gold settler(10t)>axe
TImbuktu: Settler(2t)>worker(8t)>axe
Athens: WB->granary->pyramids->Library

Timbuktu and London will build another settler, axes and worker(s) until IW is discovered, then switch to Swords, and later War Elephants and Cats.

Research path: maths, sailing, calendar, IW, construction, ->astro. Insert Mono wherever it fits.

Athens will employ 5 scientists after pyramids (generate GS #1 after 10 turns and #2 after another 20 turns). FP city will employ 5 scientists when size 9 has been reached (generate GS #3 after 30 turns.)

Err, have you counted the beakers that this will generate?

Edit: To elaborate, I only spot two science cities. When I counted with three dedicated (Athens, Spice, FP) and a fourth later (Timbuktu and/or London, 5 scientists for 20 turns) I just about got enough beakers to be able to bulb Astro with the 2nd and 3rd GS. Your proposal seems to be missing 200 scientist turns = 1200 beakers...

Edit #2: I guess Gold city is the third science city. 2 gold mines for 30 turns = ~450 commerce. Still lacking a bunch of beakers.

Perhaps we should try to conclude our brainstorming and write down a long-term plan as well as 10 turn MM scheme. (If you are ok with this, Murky?)From what we've discussed, it seems like there are four basic proposals now:

Gnejs 1
1. Spice City. (Mono for free border expansion?)
2. FP City.
3. 2xgold + worker.
4. Ivory City.
Only revolt to Representation.
Pop GLs in Athens, Spice or FP, Athens (or Athens (2), FP City or Spice)

Gnejs 2
1. Spice City. (Mono for free border expansion?)
2. FP City.
3. Ivory City + worker.
4. 2xgold.
Only revolt to Representation.
Pop GLs in Athens, Spice or FP, Athens (or Athens (2), FP City or Spice)

klarius
1. Rice City SE (or Rice City?)
2. FP City
3. ?
Revolt to Confuciansim, Organized Religion, and Representation.
Pop GLs in TImbuktu, Athens, ?...

Erkon
1. and 2. FP-city and Ivory City (sequence?)
3. Gold City (1 NE of gold south of London)
4. Stone City (Cow, Rice, Stone west of Timbuktu)
Only revolt to Representation.
Pop GLs in Athens (2) and FP City

For each we would need to ensure adequate axe protection during the early portion of the expansion. The two axes by Carthage, after any pillaging, can come N to provide protection, preferably staying 3 or more tiles from Hannibal's city center.

We can either discuss these plans further or decide on one and then get it written up and finalized.

I'm fine with either Gnejs 1 or Gnejs 2. :D

My proposal lacks 2000 beakers, although these can be found if you search close enough. However, it is evident that my proposal is not the quickest one. I tried to come up with a proposal that only had two GP-farms (Athens and FP-city) to test that theory. It's possible, but not optimal. I am thus convinced that we need both FP-City and Spice-City asap. Gnejs2 gets my vote, since Ivory city is easier to defend and quicker to settle.

Gnejs: Two points on Athens.
1. With 5 chops @ 2*44h = 440h, I get you having 748h on T19.
2. When you say Pyramids done on T19, do you mean completed T19 or chops done T19, Pyramids completed T20?

I have noted that Athens borders pop again on T19, at which point, the value of the NE NE (or SW SW) chop goes from 16h to 36h, without stone bonus. I looked at finishing the granary by hand. Pyramids completed on T20 with an overflow of 33h (instead of your 13h). That means one more chop plus hammers from city center complete the lighthouse by ~T24. EDIT: Or galley, which then unloads worker(s) at cattle T29, cattle pastured on T36 (or T33 w/2 wkrs).

Gnejs: Two points on Athens.
1. With 5 chops @ 2*44h = 440h, I get you having 748h on T19.
2. When you say Pyramids done on T19, do you mean completed T19 or chops done T19, Pyramids completed T20?

I have noted that Athens borders pop again on T19, at which point, the value of the NE NE (or SW SW) chop goes from 16h to 36h, without stone bonus. I looked at finishing the granary by hand. Pyramids completed on T20 with an overflow of 33h (instead of your 13h). That means one more chop plus hammers from city center complete the lighthouse by ~T24. EDIT: Or galley, which then unloads worker(s) at cattle T29, cattle pastured on T36 (or T33 w/2 wkrs).

1. You might be right. I was counting on 20 hammers from the Sw SW chop.
2. Final chops done T19, 750 hammers into the Pyramids T19

What is the happiness cap in Athens? Earlier I was looking at working max hammers and completing the Pyramids sooner but if we have the happiness for it it might be better to work the clams instead of the forest hill and grow faster.
This might allow us to pop our GS/GE sooner.

We shouldn't bother with the cattle pasture for Spice city. It only adds 0.4 scientists (and some hammers).

That's awesome. Athens happycap is 6. I re-worked it and we still get the Pyramids on T20. The difference is pop7 instead of pop6 on T19 at a cost of 21h instead of 33h overflow. So on T20 we can already do the 4 scientists or whatever. The lighthouse is still just a few turns away, depending on our preferences.

Here is my revised MM and GP popping in Spice city and FP city.

Spice City
Move warrior, worker and settler towards spice on T0. Let the barb warrior on the peninsula attack our warrior in a forest. Win=> settle Spice city T4. (Loss=> axe from London clears the area, settle Spice city T7 all dates below are delay 3t)
Work artist 4t, border pop T8, work tiles for max growth. Build granary.
Worker prechops E forest (T6), chops W forest (T15, timed with mathematics), moves back and chops E forest T18. Granary complete from chops T18.
Workboat from Athens improves fish T10.
pop2 T16
pop3 T22
pop4 T25
pop5 T29
Work fish+cow+3 scientists until banana is improved (guess: T40)
T40 switch to fish+banana+cow+grass+grass
pop6 T43
pop7 T46
switch to fish+banana+(2/5 cow)+(3/5 scientist)+4 scientists
T49 156 gpp (29% GA?)
T60 308 gpp (16% GA?)
T71 460 gpp (11% GA?)

FP city
Settler finished T2, settle FP city T8(?) work tiles for max growth
Border pop T23 using conf missionary
Two workers together farm FP1 (T13), chop one forest each completing granary (T20), farms further FP together (T25,T30,T35)
T13 15/33 +4f
T18 2/36 +5f pop2
T25 19/39 +7f pop3
T28 20/42 +8f pop4
T30 36/42 +9f
T31 24/45 +10f pop5
T34 31/48 +11f pop6
T35 42/48 +12f
T36 30/51 +12f pop7 (-> 4 scientists, 150 gpp T48, 300 gpp T61, 450 gpp T74)
T38 28/54 pop8 (-> 4.67 scientists, 150 gpp T49, 300 gpp T59, 450 gpp T71)
T41 37/57 pop9 (-> 5 scientists, 150 gpp T51, 300 gpp T61, 450 gpp T71)
T43 32/60 pop10 (-> 5.67 scientists, 150 gpp T52, 300 gpp T61, 450 gpp T70)

That's awesome. Athens happycap is 6. I re-worked it and we still get the Pyramids on T20. The difference is pop7 instead of pop6 on T19 at a cost of 21h instead of 33h overflow. So on T20 we can already do the 4 scientists or whatever. The lighthouse is still just a few turns away, depending on our preferences.

very interesting! How soon can we reach pop 9 with an operational lighthouse? If it happens by T27 we can either run

5 scientists+gold:
T35 150 gpp ---> pop GP#1
T44 300 gpp
T53 450 gpp ---> pop GP#2 (6 turns sooner than FP city would do it)
T62 600 gpp
T71 750 gpp

or 6 scientists:
T34 150 gpp ---> pop GP#1
T42 300 gpp
T49 450 gpp ---> pop GP#2 (10 turns sooner than FP city would do it)
T57 600 gpp
T64 750 gpp
T

No, we definitely want FP city to pop GS#2 on T59, otherwise GP#3 is popped in FP city instead on T71. By working fewer scientists in Athens and growing instead we can aim to have 445 gpp by T59. By working 8 scientists (losing food of course, but we make sure we have a full food store when we start) we can then reach 601 gpp by turn 65 and pop the third GS (or GE...).


That means:
GS/GE#1 in Athens on T34-35
GS#2 in FP city on T59
GS/GE#3 in Athens on T65

If we pop a GE in Athens on T65 we either finish Astronomy by hand or wait for the next GP (Spice city, T81, with risk of being an artist).



Btw, add one turn to all dates due to the Representation switch.

One final comment. We should be able to gain another 2 turns in FP city by spending our stored food on extra scientists at during the final turns.

That gives us:
GS/GE#1 in Athens on T34-35
GS#2 in FP city on T57
GS/GE#3 in Athens on T63

Add one turn for revolution and we pop Astronomy in T64, just in time. :)

Nice MM plans! :goodjob: We all know that they will break on T1 as they did last time 35 turns ago :lol:

...
Spice City
...
Work artist 4t
...
T49 156 gpp (29% GA?)
T60 308 gpp (16% GA?)
T71 460 gpp (11% GA?)
...

Man, I thought I understood the %-rule...

The artist will work 4 turns => 4 artist points
3 scientists will work 11 turns => 33 scientist points
4 scientists will work 3 turns => 12 scientists poinst
I get that to 8% GA. Someone please explain this to me again. :cry:

Nice MM plans! :goodjob: We all know that they will break on T1 as they did last time 35 turns ago :lol:



Man, I thought I understood the %-rule...

The artist will work 4 turns => 4 artist points
3 scientists will work 11 turns => 33 scientist points
4 scientists will work 3 turns => 12 scientists poinst
I get that to 8% GA. Someone please explain this to me again. :cry:

4 turns at 100 % artist, 14 turns at 100% scientist.

GA odds = 4/(4+14) = 22% (I must have used 4/14 to arrive at 29%)

Anyway, I don't know if this is the correct way to do it...

Man, I thought I understood the %-rule...

The artist will work 4 turns => 4 artist points
3 scientists will work 11 turns => 33 scientist points
4 scientists will work 3 turns => 12 scientists poinst
I get that to 8% GA. Someone please explain this to me again. :cry:You and I understand it the same. Gnejs is at work, drunk. ;)

very interesting! How soon can we reach pop 9 with an operational lighthouse? If it happens by T27 we can either run

No, we definitely want FP city to pop GS#2 on T59, otherwise GP#3 is popped in FP city instead on T71.
Not sure how to get the lighthouse before T25. But I was thinking GL#1 and #2 asap to free Timbuktu up to run scientists. So I get:

GP#1 in Athens on T31
GP#2 in Athens on T47
GP#3 wherever you can get it fastest after that. (Athens = T70, but we don't want that, because it's better to work the gold than the 6th scientist)

Pop8 T29
Pop9 T33
No pop growth at pop9 with 6 scientists. At pop11 we could also work the copper adn build the library (or galleys, triremes, etc.) pronto. With the other clams netted all bets off.

You freaking BUILDERS.

If we netted those dam clamns we could have GS#3 in Athens on ~T61. Now if they are currently inaccessible from Anarctica, we may be able to access them with Marble Drojf. Or it may take a 2nd Drojf.

Alternatively, all we need to do is capture Carthage before ~T33 (or re-settle Sparta on T43), and chop the workboat.

Then, if we happen to pop a GE, we can rush the Great LIbrary in FP City and still get GL#4 around T72, or whatever.

You and I understand it the same. Gnejs is at work, drunk. ;)


Who is the drunkard here? :lol:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146174

Some quotes:

If you have different types of GPP sources, it gets a little more complicated. For each turn, the game notes what types of sources had produced GPPs in the city (regardless of how many GPPs each source had contributed!). This determines the odds of which type of great person would be produced for that turn. The overall odds are the average values of all the turns since the last great person was generated in that city.

* Assuming normal game speed, no great person generated yet: You hire a priest specialist for 22 turns. Then you fire him, and hire two scientist specialists for 11 turns. Intuitively, one would assume that because you had 22*1=22 sources for a great prophet and 11*2=22 sources for a great scientist, this would give you a 50%/50% chance. But because the game averages over turns, the odds will be 22/33 = 67% for a great prophet and 11/33=33% for a great scientist instead, because you had 22 turns with only great prophet sources and 11 turns with only great scientist sources.
(Thanks to Roland Johansen for suggesting this!)

Edit: Btw, this means that the two turns of running artists in Athens are going to bring up the GA probability to 15% for the first great person. :(

Gnejs, the odds of us popping a GA in Spice City are 0%. :cool:

But thanks for the :beer: correction. I see your point now. I overlooked that detail.

One final comment. We should be able to gain another 2 turns in FP city by spending our stored food on extra scientists at during the final turns.

That gives us:
GS/GE#1 in Athens on T34-35
GS#2 in FP city on T57
GS/GE#3 in Athens on T63

Add one turn for revolution and we pop Astronomy in T64, just in time. :)I agree with this analysis. To slow the 2nd GL down in Athens, we just work the gold, which is more than one scientist anyway. If necessary, Athens can produce units too.

If the first Athen GL is a GS, then we save both GS's for Astro and just keep researching through. No risking the 3rd. It's only 6 turns anyway. With all this research, we may finish it then anyway.

Now, the only question is, is this really better than Org Religion? Because if we can put a library in Athens and run 6-8 scientists, maybe klarius is right about not needing the third research city.

Who is the drunkard here? :lol:


As I remember it, the GP flavour:

- Was a mean of turns in first versions of Vanilla.
- Was a mean of sources later in Vanilla (1.63 or 1.74).
- Is a mean of individual GPPoints in BTS.
- I have never know how it works in Warlords.

And I am a builder, so I should know.

As I remember it, the GP flavour:

- Was a mean of turns in first versions of Vanilla.
- Was a mean of sources later in Vanilla (1.63 or 1.74).
- Is a mean of individual GPPoints in BTS.
- I have never know how it works in Warlords.

And I am a builder, so I should know.Why do I listen to a drunkard's drooling drivel? :lol: You, Erkon, and I are right. I checked it in WB.

Why do I listen to a drunkard's drooling drivel? :lol: You, Erkon, and I are right. I checked it in WB.

Cheers, mate! :xmascheers: :cheers:

I agree with this analysis. To slow the 2nd GL down in Athens, we just work the gold, which is more than one scientist anyway. If necessary, Athens can produce units too.

If the first Athen GL is a GS, then we save both GS's for Astro and just keep researching through. No risking the 3rd. It's only 6 turns anyway. With all this research, we may finish it then anyway.

Now, the only question is, is this really better than Org Religion? Because if we can put a library in Athens and run 6-8 scientists, maybe klarius is right about not needing the third research city.

Of course it is better.

2 turns of anarchy = a 2 turn delay of everything that matters: Math, all future settlers, growth in Athens, axes, whatever...

And what is the gain? No speed up of Pyramids, right? A handful of hammers later in two of our cities. But between our three cities we lose roughly 100 foodhammers now from the 2 turn anarchy. This is when we need them the most for quickly getting out the axes and settlers from London and Timbuktu.

Why do I listen to a drunkard's drooling drivel? :lol: You, Erkon, and I are right. I checked it in WB.

Me checked too. I wonder what else in Gnejs' plan we have to double-check :dubious:

Just to keep record of his folly, and to prevent Gnejs to remove his silly post, I've added it here. It may serve as a good reference just in case Gnejs' plan is the best in the history of Civ4 and he needs to be... what is the expression? Brought back to earth??? :lol:Who is the drunkard here? :lol:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146174

Some quotes:

If you have different types of GPP sources, it gets a little more complicated. For each turn, the game notes what types of sources had produced GPPs in the city (regardless of how many GPPs each source had contributed!). This determines the odds of which type of great person would be produced for that turn. The overall odds are the average values of all the turns since the last great person was generated in that city.

* Assuming normal game speed, no great person generated yet: You hire a priest specialist for 22 turns. Then you fire him, and hire two scientist specialists for 11 turns. Intuitively, one would assume that because you had 22*1=22 sources for a great prophet and 11*2=22 sources for a great scientist, this would give you a 50%/50% chance. But because the game averages over turns, the odds will be 22/33 = 67% for a great prophet and 11/33=33% for a great scientist instead, because you had 22 turns with only great prophet sources and 11 turns with only great scientist sources.
(Thanks to Roland Johansen for suggesting this!)

Edit: Btw, this means that the two turns of running artists in Athens are going to bring up the GA probability to 15% for the first great person. :(

Me checked too. I wonder what else in Gnejs' plan we have to double-check :dubious:

As much as possible, I hope. You wouldn't trust a drunkard, would you? :crazyeye:

...
Now, the only question is, is this really better than Org Religion? Because if we can put a library in Athens and run 6-8 scientists, maybe klarius is right about not needing the third research city.

The 45 hammers we save on the Library can never justify two turns in Anarchy alone. Running 6 scientists during the 15 turns delay (building library without OR with 3 hpt) cost us 135 beakers. My proposal shows that it is possible to run with only two research cities but it's not the quickest. And the 135 beakers is just a pee in the Nile compared to the 2000 beakers I miss...

I don't think we shall complete Monotheism since that will delay the pyramids with 2 turns if we don't revolt...

As much as possible, I hope. You wouldn't trust a drunkard, would you? :crazyeye:

It takes one to know one :cheers:

Just to keep record of his folly, and to prevent Gnejs to remove his silly post, I've added it here. It may serve as a good reference just in case Gnejs' plan is the best in the history of Civ4 and he needs to be... what is the expression? Brought back to earth??? :lol:

Hey, I will just pass on the blame to the author of that strategy article. :p

I'm going to check because I trust klarius' gut feeling...not that I don't trust yours... :dubious: I checked FP City first, because it's the harder of the two. After massive brain damage, here are the returns:


The Gnejsian Way..... The klarius Way
T13 15/33 +4f
T15 ...................... T15 21/36 +4f
T18 2/36 +5f pop2... T18 0/36 +5f pop2
T23 ...................... T23 25/36 +6f
T25 19/39 +7f pop3. T25 19/39 +7f pop3
T28 20/42 +8f pop4. T28 20/42 +9f pop4
T30 36/42 +9f......... T30 38/42 +10f
T31 24/45 +10f pop5 T31 27/45 +11f pop5
T33 ...................... T33 26/48 + +12f pop6
T34 31/48 +11f pop6
T35 42/48 +12f....... T35 27/51 +13f pop7
T36 30/51 +12f pop7
T37 ....................... T37 27/54 +13f pop8
T38 28/54 pop8
T40 ....................... T40 39/57 +13f pop9
T41 37/57 pop9
T42 ....................... T42 36/60 +12f pop10
T43 32/60 pop10
T44 ....................... T44 30/63 +11f pop11
"But...why...how...?" you bluster.

Oh, btw, did I mention...T43 Library done?

The Why
In klarius' FP City
1. FP City settled 1 turn sooner.
2. FP City settled on plains hill.
3. FP City incurred 1 turn of an Artist (99% chance of GS for GL #2).
4. FP City timed its granary better.
5. FP City was able to use the cattle (+1f).
6. FP City used a 3rd worker starting T22. (This may equalize the Gnejsian solution for pop growth, try it.)
Edit: 7. Because of the +25% :hammers:, Athens works 12h/t (=15h/t) instead of 14h/t and grows faster.
Edit: 8.With Confucianism, Athens has +7:) and grows to pop7 on T17.

Edited notes:
1. Only 1 forest chopped. FP City still has 5 forests in FC for +2:health:.
2. Revolt to Confucianism T3.
3. Revolt to Monotheism T4.

Sorry, LC, I don't understand that at all. :confused:

Does this have anything to do with Monotheism and Organized Religion?

Murky - just play, O.K. ? ;)

Murky - just play, O.K. ? ;)

Priceless! :lol: :goodjob:

Sorry, LC, I don't understand that at all. :confused:

Does this have anything to do with Monotheism and Organized Religion?Yes, edited above. What else did I leave unclear? To make a long story short...my basic intention with this is to see if 1) we can pop the GL's at the same time as you have scheduled, and 2) build libraries in Athens and FP City in the process (leveraging the +25% OrgRel hammers), so that 3) we can get all our beakers from those two cities and additional :science: coins, so that 4) the upcoming Timbuktu settler can settle Ivory City (my preference) or elsewhere, so that 5) our war machine REX can proceed even more ominously than otherwise.

The so-called lost beakers and whatnot from the 2-turn revolt gets made up by having that second settler free to start WARREXing...(that's the theory I'm testing). If it doesn't work, then we know your solution is better...

I'm going to check because I trust klarius' gut feeling...not that I don't trust yours... :dubious: I checked FP City first, because it's the harder of the two. After massive brain damage, here are the returns:


"But...why...how...?" you bluster.

Oh, btw, did I mention...T43 Library done?

The Why
In klarius' FP City
1. FP City settled 1 turn sooner.
2. FP City settled on plains hill.
3. FP City incurred 1 turn of an Artist (99% chance of GS for GL #2).
4. FP City timed its granary better.
5. FP City was able to use the cattle (+1f).
6. FP City used a 3rd worker starting T22. (This may equalize the Gnejsian solution for pop growth, try it.)

Edited notes:
1. Only 1 forest chopped. FP City still has 5 forests in FC for +2:health:.
2. Revolt to Confucianism T3.
3. Revolt to Monotheism T4.

How much of the above is a direct consequence of your superior MM skills (compared to Gnejs), and how much comes from Conf+Mono?

Murky - just play, O.K. ? ;)

:lol: Have we reached a consensus on the MM?

Yes, edited above. What else did I leave unclear? To make a long story short...my basic intention with this is to see if 1) we can pop the GL's at the same time as you have scheduled, and 2) build libraries in Athens and FP City in the process (leveraging the +25% OrgRel hammers), so that 3) we can get all our beakers from those two cities and additional :science: coins, so that 4) the upcoming Timbuktu settler can settle Ivory City (my preference) or elsewhere, so that 5) our war machine REX can proceed even more ominously than otherwise.

The so-called lost beakers and whatnot from the 2-turn revolt gets made up by having that second settler free to start WARREXing...(that's the theory I'm testing). If it doesn't work, then we know your solution is better...

Ok, I see. Well, good luck! :)

PS. A basic analysis would be this: 6 scientists in Athens + 4.67 scientists in FP = 10.67 scientists. Add in 2 libraries at T0 and you get an additional 2.67 scientists. This is 2 scientists less than what Spice city can support. So it is worse for science, but maybe good enough anyway?

Workers chopping or roading: Does the worker do the same amount of worker during a revolt?

Workers chopping or roading: Does the worker do the same amount of worker during a revolt?

Yes, the worker completes roads as usual, and chops as usual.

klarius Athens
Athens finishes the Pyramids T20, revolt to Representation same turn. Lighthouse finished T24, pop9 on T26. GL#1 T33. Library done T39, if not sooner.

T65 estimated :science:
Athens: 1650
FP City: 1000
:commerce:@22/t: 1430
Total: 4080:science:

Notes:
1. Athens probably more :science: because we have to work gold mine and grow city for ~23t to prevent GL#2 there. Results in beaucoup production and more :commerce:.
2. Assumes Gnejs figured GL#2 in FP City T56. FLexible anyway.
3. Assumes Maths on T16. Doable. We have some flexibility with Timbuktu scientists.
4. 1 worker leaves T20 to help FC City.
5. Uses current London settler to found FP City.

This strategy gives the option of building any city with the Timbuktu settler though it is a ways from the West Coast choices, obviously.

klarius Athens
Athens finishes the Pyramids T20, revolt to Representation same turn. Lighthouse finished T24, pop9 on T26. GL#1 T33. Library done T39, if not sooner.

T65 estimated :science:
Athens: 1650
FP City: 1000
:commerce:@22/t: 1430
Total: 4080:science:

Notes:
1. Athens probably more :science: because we have to work gold mine and grow city for ~23t to prevent GL#2 there. Results in beaucoup production and more :commerce:.
2. Assumes Gnejs figured GL#2 in FP City T56. FLexible anyway.
3. Assumes Maths on T16. Doable. We have some flexibility with Timbuktu scientists.
4. 1 worker leaves T20 to help FC City.
5. Uses current London settler to found FP City.

This strategy gives the option of building any city with the Timbuktu settler though it is a ways from the West Coast choices, obviously.

There seems to be about 1000:science: lacking. In my proposal I had 5 scientists for 20 turns in Timbuktu/London for an additional 600:science, and a similar amount from Spice city.

Hey, I will just pass on the blame to the author of that strategy article. :p

Didn't you read the whole thread?

There seems to be about 1000:science: lacking. In my proposal I had 5 scientists for 20 turns in Timbuktu/London for an additional 600:science, and a similar amount from Spice city.We will have the capacity to develop some profitable gold mines and other financial profit centers. Ivory City and 2xgold together could contribute 20+ :commerce:, don't you think?

Didn't you read the whole thread?He was probably busy reading this one... :lol:

Didn't you read the whole thread?

No. I just noticed there were a bunch of edits due to later comments in the thread so I assumed that the info in the first post was up to date. :blush:

2xLibrary = 270 hammers = 216 hammers without OrgRel bonus. If we build units instead of libraries it lets us build more settlers out of London and Timbuktu. The two turns of revolt is another 50-60 hammers in London and Timbuktu. In total this is more than the cost of a worker and a settler.

Assume we revolt to Police State and Slavery upon discovering Astronomy. Spice city can then immediately whip three Galleons for us.

In FP City, you build your granary on ~T18, then at 1h/t, you'll build 1 axe by T70. Just in time...uh...for...uh...I give up--you tell me... ;) In Athens, you build the Pyramids on T20. Then we chop the galley on, say T28. Then, at 3h/t you have built your first trireme on T53... I just don't see how these two cities are freeing London and Timbuktu up for settlers and workers.

On the other hand, we settle Ivory City on T5, expand borders T9, pasture cattle T14, 2nd worker from London arrives about now, we connect horses for a quick chariot or two to start stealing workers from Hannibal. Meanwhile, when Maths comes in on T16, Ivory City begins cranking out whatever we need at sickening amounts per turn.

2xLibrary = 270 hammers = 216 hammers without OrgRel bonus. If we build units instead of libraries it lets us build more settlers out of London and Timbuktu. The two turns of revolt is another 50-60 hammers in London and Timbuktu. In total this is more than the cost of a worker and a settler.

Assume we revolt to Police State and Slavery upon discovering Astronomy. Spice city can then immediately whip three Galleons for us.You may be right on this, but my gut feeling is that anything that gets Ivory City up and running 1 turn sooner wins us this game 1 turn sooner, just as long as it doesn't slow down Astronomy.

So basically, you're saying 2 libraries = a worker and a settler, right?

Well, for starters, those 2 libraries start out with a bonus settler, because the Timbuktu settler comes in 2 turns. Furthermore, he comes equipped with a worker (the London worker is not needed to chop two Spice forests over the next 16t). Okay, those are just the bonuses and the 2 libraries have already paid off their debts. But there's more. Instead of London and TImbuktu having to spend 8-10t building a settler and worker for Ivory City (or wherever), they can build axes, a very good idea, considering we are down to 5 civilizations and the 3/civ limit (for barbs attacking our cities) may have been passed or will surely be passed when we build our new cities. Add to that the barb axes that may start spawning at any moment and we need more defenses. Then add on the production we get out of Ivory City.

As for your 3 galleons, I'm all for settling SPice City later on, at a time when we'll be able to 1) quickly pasture the cattle with an available galley, and 2) plantate the bananas...SPice CIty will be well able to split its guts for the cause come Astronomy.

In FP City, you build your granary on ~T18, then at 1h/t, you'll build 1 axe by T70. Just in time...uh...for...uh...I give up--you tell me... ;) In Athens, you build the Pyramids on T20. Then we chop the galley on, say T28. Then, at 3h/t you have built your first trireme on T53... I just don't see how these two cities are freeing London and Timbuktu up for settlers and workers.

On the other hand, we settle Ivory City on T5, expand borders T9, pasture cattle T14, 2nd worker from London arrives about now, we connect horses for a quick chariot or two to start stealing workers from Hannibal. Meanwhile, when Maths comes in on T16, Ivory City begins cranking out whatever we need at sickening amounts per turn.

Are we comparing apples and pears here? :confused:

How can FP city build a library T43 with OrgRel and not even an axe 25 turns later without?

In FP City, you build your granary on ~T18, then at 1h/t, you'll build 1 axe by T70. Just in time...uh...for...uh...I give up--you tell me... ;) In Athens, you build the Pyramids on T20. Then we chop the galley on, say T28. Then, at 3h/t you have built your first trireme on T53... I just don't see how these two cities are freeing London and Timbuktu up for settlers and workers.

On the other hand, we settle Ivory City on T5, expand borders T9, pasture cattle T14, 2nd worker from London arrives about now, we connect horses for a quick chariot or two to start stealing workers from Hannibal. Meanwhile, when Maths comes in on T16, Ivory City begins cranking out whatever we need at sickening amounts per turn.

Hmm, I'm confused... How do you manage to build a Library with OrgRel in FP City, but not even an axe without :confused:

Anyway, the point is not FP City, Spice City or Athens. It may be possible to complete the Pyramids on T20 even if we delay math with four turns (two turns of anarchy, another two turns spend on Math) if it is limited by chopping time. The gain with OR for Pyramids, Granary and Lighthouse may be more than what we loose from the Anarchy period in Athens. We may even grow quicker to full size, I don't know. Likewise, FP City will gain from OR as long as Math is completed before the chops are done (which is not the case in the example by Gnejs, but perhaps in your MM plan?). Spice City will not run conf, so it is unaffected.

The drawback with OR is for London and Timbuktu. We will loose the hammer-food in these two cities for two turns. I fully agree that it's a very clever way to shift production from mature cities to new cities. Very clever. I just need to understand what the impact really is. What comes from OR and what comes from clever MM?

LC, finally I understand... me thinks

You want us to settle FP-city and Ivory-city while switching to OrgRel, and skip Spice City?! Why didn't you say so, Mr Mystery Man!!! :lol:

That would be sweet. The hammers we loose during Anarchy is regained by Ivory City.

How come you manage with this feat and I didn't? I will have to check your beaker calculations again...

How can FP city build a library T43 with OrgRel and not even an axe 25 turns later without?Well, mainly because I'm settling on the plains hill and pasturing the cattle in 3 turns. So I'm immediately getting 6h/t while you're getting only 1h/t. Actually, you could have the axe sooner than T70, because in the T30s, when you finish farming the fps, you could then pasture the cattle (or any time sooner that you decide to, obviously). I guess you could try your way, but settling on the plains hill. Btw, there's one more factor that I forgot to mention above: Confucianism gives Athens +1:), which comes into play on T17 because It grows to pop7 quicker (working only 11h/t, not 14h/t).

LC, finally I understand... me thinks

You want us to settle FP-city and Ivory-city while switching to OrgRel, and skip Spice City?! Why didn't you say so, Mr Mystery Man!!! :lol:

That would be sweet. The hammers we loose during Anarchy is regained by Ivory City.

How come you manage with this feat and I didn't? I will have to check your beaker calculations again...We managed it (if we did). For me this has been the coolest CivSynergy Trip I've taken yet. It started with your threat to kill us all :aargh: :aargh: :aargh: if we didn't decide on Astro or not. Then Gnejs slapped me out of builder mode (as in: Hey! Let's not waste any turns. We can finish Astro sooner by using less than 6 scientists!...etc.), klarius threw in this OrgRel curveball and then claimed that we didn't need both FP City and Spice City, Murky started playing around with the :commerce: in Timbuktu and then I realized that we could achieve Maths pretty much whenever we wanted from T12 onward, and Mitiu made light of it all, which really lit a fire underneath me... :lol:. But most of all, you and Gnejs getting involved in this planning brought me out of my depression... :goodjob:

Well, mainly because I'm settling on the plains hill and pasturing the cattle in 3 turns. So I'm immediately getting 6h/t while you're getting only 1h/t. Actually, you could have the axe sooner than T70, because in the T30s, when you finish farming the fps, you could then pasture the cattle (or any time sooner that you decide to, obviously). I guess you could try your way, but settling on the plains hill. Btw, there's one more factor that I forgot to mention above: Confucianism gives Athens +1:), which comes into play on T17 because It grows to pop7 quicker (working only 11h/t, not 14h/t).

So it is apples and pears... :)

I guess that without OR the output is then 5h/t instead of 6 h/t. On the other hand those 5 h/t goes towards units. It is probably possible to rework the MM with working the cow instead of a farmed FP the whole time. That would give an axe every 10-11 turns and definitely not after 70 turns...


We managed it (if we did). For me this has been the coolest CivSynergy Trip I've taken yet. It started with your threat to kill us all :aargh: :aargh: :aargh: if we didn't decide on Astro or not. Then Gnejs slapped me out of builder mode (as in: Hey! Let's not waste any turns. We can finish Astro sooner by using less than 6 scientists!...etc.), klarius threw in this OrgRel curveball and then claimed that we didn't need both FP City and Spice City, Murky started playing around with the :commerce: in Timbuktu and then I realized that we could achieve Maths pretty much whenever we wanted from T12 onward, and Mitiu made light of it all, which really lit a fire underneath me... :lol:. But most of all, you and Gnejs getting involved in this planning brought me out of my depression... :goodjob:

LC, you know what? You are starting to convince me about the advantages of your/klarius way. Let me just challenge you with a few more questions:

What is the backup plan if we pop the wrong GP in Athens?
With only two GP farms it will take a long time for the next GS to appear and e.g. Timbuktu will have dreadful odds by that time.
Do we settle Spice city after FP/Ivory city or not at all?
What is the backup plan if the conf missionary fails in FP city? And btw, what are the odds of failure anyway?
How soon do we have a galley/trireme protection the fishing boats at Athens?

In FP City, you build your granary on ~T18, then at 1h/t, you'll build 1 axe by T70. Just in time...uh...for...uh...I give up--you tell me... ;) In Athens, you build the Pyramids on T20. Then we chop the galley on, say T28. Then, at 3h/t you have built your first trireme on T53... I just don't see how these two cities are freeing London and Timbuktu up for settlers and workers.


Slavery is the answer.

1. What is the backup plan if we pop the wrong GP in Athens? With only two GP farms it will take a long time for the next GS to appear and e.g. Timbuktu will have dreadful odds by that time.
2. Do we settle Spice city after FP/Ivory city or not at all?
3. What is the backup plan if the conf missionary fails in FP city?
4. And btw, what are the odds of failure anyway?
5. How soon do we have a galley/trireme protection the fishing boats at Athens?1. If we pop a GA in Athens on the first try, we go for cultural victory, jesusin at the helm. If we pop a GE on GL #3, I suppose the fastest way to pop another would be to GE-rush the Great Library in either Athens or FP City. But my real back-up plan is to have the Athens clams netted for +15f (now I'm getting ahead of myself).
2. Open for discussion. It could still come in as a boost to our research and provide pop-rushed vessels, as you suggest.
3. Not gonna happen. Edit: The FP City Plains/hill site has an extra forest that could be chopped to make up for the lost hammers.
4. What happened to klarius anyway?
5. Personally, I like Ivory City>2xgold. (Did that answer your question? :lol:)

Disclaimer: Before klarius gets on my case about it, 'his' plan, as I understand it, was to pop the first GL in TImbuktu and go from there. I'm trying to avoid that altogether.

Slavery is the answer.

Yeah, what about switching back to slavery for the coming 25 turns instead of going OrgRel? We can settle FP city and spice city as planned, and poprush Ivory city settler on T7 in Timbuktu while London poprushes a worker for it.

Looks like a lot of interesting stuff. I could probably play either tomorrow morning or Saturday if you guys are comfortable with the plan.

Well, I'm still reading. But I'm also still sick and not feeling like calculating long term plans.

Yeah, what about switching back to slavery for the coming 25 turns instead of going OrgRel? We can settle FP city and spice city as planned, and poprush Ivory city settler on T7 in Timbuktu while London poprushes a worker for it.I'm well and not feeling like calculating those long-term plans... :cool:. If you feel like checking it, be my guest. I highly doubt that leaving castes is the solution, because it will slow down our research. I see us using a scientist in Timbuktu for a limited number of turns and maybe somewhere else to get Maths done on time. Neither TImbuktu nor London have granaries and not much food either.

Plus, if anything we want to grow London's population so it can work all its useful tiles, including the dyes and banana plantations and the unjungled hills. Those techs are a lot closer than London is to growing its pop.

We can play the what-if-we-had game, but we're in castes now...

Well, I'm still reading. But I'm also still sick and not feeling like calculating long term plans.Sorry, I forgot you got sick. Hope you get well soon. :)

1. If we pop a GA in Athens on the first try, we go for cultural victory,
4. What happened to klarius anyway?


1.- Yes,please, that would take my depression away.

4.- The chances are zero anyway.

1.- Yes,please, that would take my depression away.Here you go:

http://www.dq-valencia.com/dq-valencia/images/travel/food1.jpghttp://www.mallorcastrand.de/images/Formentor2g.JPGhttp://asapblogs.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/29/2dbc57z.jpghttp://www.ultrashannon.com/images/Photos/NEW/sept06/09122006_1f.jpg

LC, how do you get 1650 beakers in Athens? Is that including the gold and other commerce? But those are already included in our current science rate. If anything, this will go down due to gold not being worked...

We will have accumulated 600 gpp points in Athens on T65 including 90 from the pyramids and 6 from the artist. That leaves 504 scientist points = 1008 beakers. This is equal for our two proposals. Now comes the difference: you have a library up and running sometime after GL#1 pops on T33. Even if we assume that the library is complete on T33 you only get the library bonus on about 2/3rds of the beakers. My best estimate is then 1176 beakers. Ok, lets revisit the calculations:

My proposal:
Athens: 1008 beakers
FP city: 800 beakers
Spice City: 700 beakers
Timbuktu+London: 5 scientists*20 turns = 600 beakers
Average science from commerce (includes Athens gold, future gold cities etc): 30 beakers/turn * 65 turns = 1950 beakers

Total T65: 5058 beakers, almost enough



Your proposal:
Athens: 1176 beakers
FP city: 1000 beakers
Average science from commerce (includes Athens gold, future gold cities etc): 30 beakers/turn * 65 turns = 1950 beakers
Monotheism + 2t anarchy = -68 beakers

Total T65: 4058 beakers, missing 1000 beakers


Can we gain those missing 1000 beakers somewhere? We can do as I propose and run 5 scientists between Timbuktu and London in the final 20 turns: adds 600 beakers. We can settle Spice city T19 (15 turns later) and we gain 700-15*4.6*6=286 beakers.
Almost there. Add another scientist in Ivory city or someplace for 20 turns = 120 beakers.

Grand total: 5064 beakers



Ok, you have me convinced. My only worry is whether we will be able to maintain the science rate of 30 beakers per turn but maybe some more gold mines will solve that.

I only used the goldtile :commerce: from Athens during the time it was running 4 scientists and the gold, rather than the 6 scientists (to let FP City pop its GL). I think that's valid. Are you including Athens gold in your :commerce: calculations, even when you're not working Athens' gold? Plus, I was only estimating 22:commerce:/turn. I also don't think we need the full 5000.

We won't see 30/turn in either for a while. I think we should focus on settling cities that provide some geakers in addition to their production. Ivory City, 2xgold, SPice City, RIce Somewhere, maybe 2xgold North, maybe SpartaGoldHorsesAthensWorkboat City.

Would we gain anything by delaying monotheism until FP city is settled? I saw an artist there in your MM plan, we could avoid that by founding a religion.

Would we gain anything by delaying monotheism until FP city is settled? I saw an artist there in your MM plan, we could avoid that by founding a religion.That was my original thought. Two problems: 1) I think we don't want to risk the Confucian Missionary not taking after that, and 2) we miss a few early bonus hammers (Edit: 5:hammers:) in Athens. Plus the usual earlier-the-better concept.

Would we gain anything by delaying monotheism until FP city is settled? I saw an artist there in your MM plan, we could avoid that by founding a religion.

Hmm, we don't get any missionary from Judaism, do we? I can't remember. If we do, we can settle Judaism in Athens perhaps a couple of turns later and choose Judaism as state religion? OTOH, this may be too risky in the sense that the gain from doing this is much less than the potential loss if we fail spreading Conf or if Judaism is FIDL.

LC, would you be kind enough and compile the actions for Murky the upcoming 10 turns? Else I'll try to do it tonight, but I may miss the MM... :D

Here you go:

http://www.dq-valencia.com/dq-valencia/images/travel/food1.jpghttp://www.mallorcastrand.de/images/Formentor2g.JPGhttp://asapblogs.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/29/2dbc57z.jpghttp://www.ultrashannon.com/images/Photos/NEW/sept06/09122006_1f.jpg

That that last one reminds of a woman I met a few weeks ago. :mischief:

That that last one reminds of a woman I met a few weeks ago. :mischief:

You've met LC? :lol:

Wait a minute. The gain from building libraries in Athens and FP city is 370 beakers. The cost is 216 hammers or even 270 hammers without OR. If we can gain those 370 beakers some other way we can skip the libraries. If we can skip the libraries, can we then also skip OR?

I have the beginning of an idea on how to gain those beakers, but I would like to know the answer to the above question first.


Edit: Yes, this idea would definitely work.

You've met LC? :lol:

:lol: Are you saying that LC looks like a woman?

:lol: Are you saying that LC looks like a woman?

Let me put it this way:

I am sure LC is visible in at least one of the pictures. Either he is covered by tomatoes or he is, in fact, a she. :)

All in jest, of course. :p

The tomatoes are covering the one I'm in.

Wait a minute. The gain from building libraries in Athens and FP city is 370 beakers. The cost is 216 hammers or even 270 hammers without OR. If we can gain those 370 beakers some other way we can skip the libraries. If we can skip the libraries, can we then also skip OR?

I have the beginning of an idea on how to gain those beakers, but I would like to know the answer to the above question first.


Edit: Yes, this idea would definitely work.I had the 2 libraries contributing 423:science: up to T65. It would be more if we ran more scientists or ran more turns, of course. That's the only purpose the libraries would be fulfilling, because they don't check out papyri. If we skip OR and Confucianism, then we still have to figure out how to build the lighthouse quickly in Athens, you already figured out the 2 granaries, presumably.

So what's your idea, Mr MysteryMan? ;)

LC, would you be kind enough and compile the actions for Murky the upcoming 10 turns? Else I'll try to do it tonight, but I may miss the MM... :DCheck with Gnejs when he finishes the kegger he's working on. :) If we're going to go with his idea, he might as well put together the plan.

I had the 2 libraries contributing 423:science: up to T65. It would be more if we ran more scientists or ran more turns, of course. That's the only purpose the libraries would be fulfilling, because they don't check out papyri. If we skip OR and Confucianism, then we still have to figure out how to build the lighthouse quickly in Athens, you already figured out the 2 granaries, presumably.

So what's your idea, Mr MysteryMan? ;)

Yes, but I think you were overestimating the number of scientist-turns we could get from Athens (see my post above). The lighthouse in Athens might be delayed a couple of turns (18 more hammers to build, but there are plenty of forests to chop if we look a bit further away), but that is not critical since it is the FP city GS that limits our speed and research.

My idea?

We build walls.

Yes, you got me right. Walls.

No, I am not drunk. Walls.

Put 24 hammers into city walls in Ivory city. Protective +100%, access to stone +100% = 72 out of 75 hammers. On the last turn, chop two forests. Each forest give 44 hammers +200% = 132 hammers. We have 264 hammers overflow. 75 of those are carried over (becomes 25 regular hammers, just the amount we have spent on the walls themselves) and the rest becomes pure 24k GOLD. 189 gold! We have just converted two forests = 90 hammers into 189 gold.



Disclaimer: This might by some be considered as an exploit. I have PMed AlanH about it. No animals were harmed. Consult your physician. Yada yada.

I've updated post #3. Please check links and provide review comments (did I miss anything? Is anything wrong? etc)

While searching for interesting posts, I noticed two things that klarius wrote.
1) His turn set was based on founding Rice city and get culture there for exploration. Perhaps Rice city instead of Ivory city? Ivory city is then delayed 10 turns, but the gold mine will/may make maths earlier...
2) Switching back to slavery at the same time as switching to OR. Since both FP City and Athens will grow one pop every second turn, rushing libraries will cost us ~6-8 turns
I'm not arguing for any of the above, but I wanted to mention it since the last turn set was based on this strategy.

Gnejs - hilarious and great idea! But you're still drunk... :D

EDIT: why not invest the overflow hammers into the Great Wall? That will give us some coins too :D

The tomatoes are covering the one I'm in.

Thanks for that mental image I didn't ask for :cool:

1) His turn set was based on founding Rice city and get culture there for exploration. Perhaps Rice city instead of Ivory city? Ivory city is then delayed 10 turns, but the gold mine will/may make maths earlier...
2) Switching back to slavery at the same time as switching to OR. Since both FP City and Athens will grow one pop every second turn, rushing libraries will cost us ~6-8 turns
I'm not arguing for any of the above, but I wanted to mention it since the last turn set was based on this strategy.


Veeery correct observation - in fact the side-efect of so much talking and analysis of hiper-probabilistic-scenarios seems to be the risk of oscilating between moves without a coherent strategy :blush: ( added to the main effect that the discussion became almost impossible to follow ... :( ).

Don't mind with my comments - but I feel somehow that we purely and simply waste time in the last days ...

P.S. : BTW - I'll be extremly surprised to have Astronomy in ~1 AD. In my best games without Tech Trading I managed to have it ~100 AD. ;)

EDIT: why not invest the overflow hammers into the Great Wall? That will give us some coins too :D

This relies on any of the remaining three AIs completing the GW within the coming 30-40 turns, otherwise we have just thrown away good hammers for nothing.

My idea? 189 gold! We have just converted two forests = 90 hammers into 189 gold. This is a bewildering idea, speaking of which, have you tested it in WorldBewilder?

This is a bewildering idea, speaking of which, have you tested it in WorldBewilder?

Of course. Works just as advertised. :)

Edit: Actually I tried it with four forests and got an absolutely insane amount of gold.

Well, it's obviously not an exploit, because it's just the overflow working the way it was intentionally programmed, but obviously we'll wait for AlanH's response. This means we could do the same in Stone city (with all 8-9 forests, hmmm...maybe it is an exploit...) and then leave it for the barbs to capture. Then to use the gold we'll have to REX a bunch to get our income up to a useful level.

EDIT: Actually, to do 9 chops, you'd need 9 workers there on the same turn. I don't see how that's an exploit. That's a logistically expensive commitment of labor.

Thanks for that mental image I didn't ask for :cool:Now I understand why you like Missionary so much... :scan:

...Don't mind with my comments - but I feel somehow that we purely and simply waste time in the last days ...

P.S. : BTW - I'll be extremly surprised to have Astronomy in ~1 AD. In my best games without Tech Trading I managed to have it ~100 AD. ;)

Strange. I don't feel it that way. The discussion regarding OR reveals a method to shift production from a mature city to a newly built one (we loose hammers in London but gain them in FP-city). I am fully aware of that optimizations that will save us a turn 60 turns from now is a bit silly, but I think the choice we take/make/grab now will affect 10 turns at the end of the game. Thats gold OR silver medal. Or silver/bronze medal. Perhaps it's hard to keep up with the plan, that's why I asked you nicely to write a pre-play-plan for Murky :)

Regarding Astronomy BC Challenge. Yes, it would be a feat indeed. But what do you expect from this motley crew, that we all belong to the peanut gallery! :lol:

Gnejs, your chopped coins are little more wooden than golden. This is what we're comparing:

OR Way
Costs:
* 285 :hammers: = 64h (2t revolt) + 221h (2 libraries)
* 24 :food: (2t revolt)
* 44 :commerce: (2t revolt)
Benefits:
* 10 :food: (1 turn faster growth in Athens)
* 423+ :science:, even more if we net the Athens clams.
* 129 :hammers: = 54h (granaries and lighthouse) + 75h (Pyramids)
* +1 :) in Athens and FP City
* Possibility for other cities to become Confucianist by free spread.

Totals:
-156 :hammers:
-14 :food:
+423 :science:

Walls Way
Breakeven costs:
* 30 worker turns
* 295 :hammers: = 220h (chops) + 75h (walls in 3 cities, assuming 1-2 workers per city)
Benefit:
* 467 :commerce:

Totals:
-30 worker-turns
-295 :hammers:
+467 :commerce:

So basically the Wall Way gains 14 :food: and 25-30 :science: at the expense of 138 :hammers: and 30 worker-turns. (Assuming I didn't miss something.)

Your chop idea seems really useful and we could definitely take advantage of it toward the end, no matter what, especially if our workers run out of improvements to make. What really concerns me is the worker turns. Right now our workers are in extremely short supply.

Speaking of worker-turns. Gnejs, earlier you had the idea of establishing Spice City instead of FP City to save all those worker-turns. Is there a way we can pop the 2nd GL out of Spice City as fast as FP City?

Veeery correct observation - in fact the side-efect of so much talking and analysis of hiper-probabilistic-scenarios seems to be the risk of oscilating between moves without a coherent strategy :blush: ( added to the main effect that the discussion became almost impossible to follow ... :( ).

Don't mind with my comments - but I feel somehow that we purely and simply waste time in the last days ...

P.S. : BTW - I'll be extremly surprised to have Astronomy in ~1 AD. In my best games without Tech Trading I managed to have it ~100 AD. ;)Our discussion boils down to trying to optimize three factors:
1. Pop 3 GSs or 2GSs and 1 GE as fast as possible.
2. Accumulate enough additional :science: to complete our research to Astronomy and Construction.
3. Maximize our war preparations.

We have made considerable progress and are nearing an excellent solution. If we hadn't done this, I think we would have been bumbling along around 1 AD, not close enough to astronomy and not really having an adequate war machine. Erkon's estimate of 10 turns is in my opinion highly optimistic. I think we'd have finished 30+ turns slower.

I have only one small remark at this point ( which could not be valid - but as ideea ) : why to settle a gold city NE of London where is only 1 gold and need also to farm the rice when there is a spot 6-tiles south from London where a city could be build and which, after first border expansion and at size 3 after working the fish, could mine 2 gold-tiles =>16 gpt - which could be very important to cover our research-expenses - and without additional worker turns spent on farms. It will also fill somehow the gap between London and Athens ... and will have a somehow decent production for latter ships ...

For that moment that's my only suggestion. :)

Regards


Hmm, we don't get any missionary from Judaism, do we?{...}

As far as I'm remember there will be a free rabbi after founding Judaism in a city. :rolleyes:

I have only one small remark at this point ( which could not be valid - but as ideea ) : why to settle a gold city NE of London where is only 1 gold and need also to farm the rice when there is a spot 6-tiles south from London where a city could be build and which, after first border expansion and at size 3 after working the fish, could mine 2 gold-tiles =>16 gpt - which could be very important to cover our research-expenses - and without additional worker turns spent on farms. It will also fill somehow the gap between London and Athens ... and will have a somehow decent production for latter ships ...


Mîtiu, this observation is correct, and I think this has been the plan lately. The site up north is not as good as the site to the SW. If I understand LC correct, then 2xGold City is the city you refer to (6 tiles south of London). The only advantage with the city to the north is that we can then build galleons closer to the east coast. However, such a city (the one up north) will probably not be good enough when we need it (too few hammers), so we may as well sail our Galleons from the west coast up north to the east coast. Or even better, capture Carthage and build them there :lol:

Speaking of sea units, I think I have glanced the end-of-the-world line south of Athens, which