Turn Zero
Set research to Mathematics
Set research slider to 60%
Set Athens build to warrior (then workboat>Pyramids)
Set Timbuktu settler to finish in 2 turns (then axe)
Set London to axe in 3 turns (then build 2nd Ivory City worker asap)

Turn Zero unit actions
London warrior goes to London
London Axe SE
London settler SE SE
London wkr N road 1 turn only! (Next turn he goes with settler straight to FP City)
London wkr X cancel action

Timbuktu axe (by horses) SW
Timbuktu wkr SW

Athens worker pre-chop 1 turn, and X cancel action
Other Athens worker pre-chop 1 turn, and X cancel action
Athens warrior E to gold
Athens Missionary E to gold

Hannibal warrior NW !!! (not pillage copper, the axe will)
Hannibal axe NW to copper
Hannibal axe pillage horses

...et cetera for ensuing turns...

Remember to X cancel worker actions on ALL TURNS!!!

Turn Two
Make sure second Timbuktu worker finishes SW jungle road before moving settler further toward Ivory City location:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Ivory_City_location.JPG

Turn Five
If there no surprises AND Judaism has not been researched yet...
Settle Ivory City, then
Set research to Monotheism
Set research slider to 100%
We try for Judaism in Ivory City

Build granaries in Ivory City and FP City!!! In Ivory City, we need to get the cattle pastured asap, and also connect Ivory CIty to the river and to the pastured horses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-chopping in Athens is critical for the Pyramids. Here's a sequence of actions that gets the job done:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_940bc_Athens_worker_plan.JPG

Here's a defogging plan to hopefully prevent the barbs from settling FP City and make for safe passage:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_940_bc_FP_City_defog_plan.JPG

Here's a plan for escorting the workers and settler to FP CIty:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_940bc_Settler_adn_worker_route_plan.JPG

Other option seems to have more votes right now ... :rolleyes:

I've been updating this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6384931&postcount=1197) and FP City + Ivory City more support than any other combination. That's why I wanted a base line plan for that pair. If we don't reach a concensus i.e. everyone agree on these two cities, then the challenger city pair has to be planned for and then Murky chooses. Does this reasoning match your expectations?

The third city site is not part of this turn set, that's why I would prefer if we waited with that discussion. I presume 2xGold is a favorite candidate, with Spice City as one challenger. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

LC, very nice work! :goodjob:

A couple of questions though:

Your FP city location is not on the plains hill. I thought this was required to get the granary and library up sooner.
What turn will Murky be able to settle FP city?
Shouldn't we complete Monotheism and revolt to Org Rel before FP city is settled?
Why is Monotheism in Ivory city important? We can expand the borders using an artist anyway.

Thanks LC. I'll start playing the turn set soon.

Thanks LC. I'll start playing the turn set soon.I thought the others wanted to respond to my proposal, but whtever. One detail, Murky. In Athens, you could also skip the warriorbuild, but keep a close lookout for barbs. The minute they appear, you need to build a quick warrior if the other one hasn't returned from defogging for the Missionary.
LC, very nice work! :goodjob:

A couple of questions though:

Your FP city location is not on the plains hill. I thought this was required to get the granary and library up sooner.
What turn will Murky be able to settle FP city?
Shouldn't we complete Monotheism and revolt to Org Rel before FP city is settled?
Why is Monotheism in Ivory city important? We can expand the borders using an artist anyway.
Okay, listen. THe proposal I did follows YOUR original plan for FP City. No revolt. LIbrary is not prioritized, but still possible by hand, if we want. Murky should settle FP City on T6. Ivory City on T5.

Monotheism can come after settling either city, if Judaism hasn't been discovered. FP City in your location doesn't need borders expanded in less than 15t. On the other hand, Judaism in FP CIty gets us thewheat in 30t. Ivory City needs fast border expansion for the cattle and horses. Yes, we can do it with artists. That may be better. We use the 29:science: for faster Maths instead. That's a choice: faster Maths or faster Ivory City growth and production. You're right. Maybe be forget Monotheism altogether.

I thought the others wanted to respond to my proposal, but whtever. One detail, Murky. In Athens, you could also skip the warriorbuild, but keep a close lookout for barbs. The minute they appear, you need to build a quick warrior if the other one hasn't returned from defogging for the Missionary.
Okay, listen. THe proposal I did follows YOUR original plan for FP City. No revolt. LIbrary is not prioritized, but still possible by hand, if we want. Murky should settle FP City on T6. Ivory City on T5.

Monotheism can come after settling either city, if Judaism hasn't been discovered. FP City in your location doesn't need borders expanded in less than 15t. Ivory City needs fast border expansion for the cattle and horses. Yes, we can do it with artists. That may be better. We use the 29:science: for faster Maths instead. That's a choice: faster Maths or faster Ivory City growth and production. You're right. Maybe be forget Monotheism altogether.

Settling on the plains hill according to YOUR proposal seemed better to me, as did your arguments for OR. You convinced me, now you have changed your mind? :crazyeye:

Settling on the plains hill according to YOUR proposal seemed better to me, as did your arguments for OR. You convinced me, now you have changed your mind? :crazyeye:Yup. Simple. Your solution, starting 2 turns earlier, is 2 turns faster. You were using the TImbuktu settler before.

FP City GS 2 turns earlier means the Athens GS 2 turns earlier.

Furthermore, you didn't even use the 3rd worker starting T21, I did.

It is very nice that we get our great scientists two turns earlier, but I was more thinking about the beaker count. Library in FP city = 200:science:, library in Athens = 230:science:...

But maybe we can figure this out later.

It is very nice that we get our great scientists two turns earlier, but I was more thinking about the beaker count. Library in FP city = 200:science:, library in Athens = 230:science:...

But maybe we can figure this out later.We have more production, so we can produce more beakers if we need to. The key is that we free up our cities to run unlimited scientists sooner. The 3rd GL is the slowest factor. We speed it up and we can speed everything up.

Ok, everything seems fine then.

Murky, a big Good Luck to you! Go get 'em! :viking:

Btw, we have almost 450 posts since the last turnset. This has to be some sort of record. :trophy:

Btw, we have almost 450 posts since the last turnset. This has to be some sort of record. :trophy:

Well, it's a second place. We had 500 posts between two turn sets in SGOTM5...

Good luck, Murky!

Note--I added to the above post: build granaries in both Ivory City and FP City. (Ivory City has nothing else particularly useful to build until it's connected to the river or horses. Ivory CIty needs to have a granary asap anyway.)

Current standings:
LC - FP City and Ivory City
Gnejs - FP City and Ivory City
Erkon - FP City and Ivory City
klarius - FP City and Rice City
Murky - Ivory City and 2xGold
Mîtiu - FP City and 2XGold
jesusin - Not clear


I don't feel I have the info to vote here, too detailed arguments for someone who can't open the save.

EDIT: I like the menage a trois argument the most.:lol:

Walls and 2 chops in Ivory City on T16 gets us 189:commerce:. Rice City requires, let's say 10g/t * 19 turns, starting on T10, to gain that much.

Ivory City invests
2 chops 88:hammers:
12 worker-turns
Return: 189:commerce: allowing 100% research till T29 (for argument's sake)

Rice SE invests:
1 settler 150:hammers:
7 worker-turns
-1:food:, -2:hammers: in London (the +2:commerce: from dyes I included in the 10g/t)
Return: 190:commerce: at T29

Meanwhile, both cities develop toward their respective capacities. The costs are not exactly comparable, but if they're approximately equal, then developing Ivory City earlier seems to be the better choice in the long run. The Rice SE gold mine can be developed in 11t whenever we want.

I think I trust your comparisons less and less everyday.:blush:

Doesn't Ivory city need a settler to be founded?:confused:

Are you going forward without a plan, either written by you or by the group??? :crazyeye:

Murky, when you have that elaborate plan in front of you, please add 1 more Axe than planned and 1 more WB than planned.

I don't mind losing 2 turns on Astronomy and going beyond the (arbitrary) threshold of 1AD. I insist on security and exploration, though.

double post

I think I trust your comparisons less and less everyday.:blush:

Doesn't Ivory city need a settler to be founded?:confused:Sorry. That refers to the list of mega-cities cities that still need to be founded. Since Ivory City is on the list and Rice SE is not, settling Rice SE means we still have Ivory CIty to found = +1 settler.

Turn Zero
Set research to Mathematics
Set research slider to 60%
Set Athens build to warrior (then workboat>Pyramids)
Set Timbuktu settler to finish in 2 turns (then axe)
Set London to axe in 3 turns (then build 2nd Ivory City worker asap)

Turn Zero unit actions
...


Wow, impresive work, LC.

I am up to date now. Good luck, Murky.

Sorry. That refers to the list of mega-cities cities that still need to be founded. Since Ivory City is on the list and Rice SE is not, settling Rice SE means we still have Ivory CIty to found = +1 settler.

Understood, thank you.

Murky, when you have that elaborate plan in front of you, please add 1 more Axe than planned and 1 more WB than planned.

I don't mind losing 2 turns on Astronomy and going beyond the (arbitrary) threshold of 1AD. I insist on security and exploration, though.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Heresy! Sacrilege!! ....don't mind losing 2 turns... :gripe: :gripe: :gripe:

The plan is to build axes in London/Timbuktu (sneak in one worker). When the WB is built in Athens, we will have two on the west coast. Since there is a risk that the southern passage is blocked, we may already have one too many, although the second can be used either for fishing nets for Spice City, or send both of them up north-east and split them up when paths diverge.

The decision has been taken to go for Astronomy no matter what. Even if we find a galley-route to all AI, it will be too late to utilize that. However, you are correct that we need to know where to send our fleet as soon as we have one :lol:

IMHO we don't really lack any axes right now. They're just spread out a bit, and we don't have enough roads to run an active defense. With the axes planned, and a better disposition, we're fine.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Heresy! Sacrilege!! ....don't mind losing 2 turns... :gripe: :gripe: :gripe:


Well, I meant I didn't mind to lose 2 turns when compared to losing 20 turns because of inoportune whipping due to barbs or 20 turns because of inadecuate exploration.

I usually spend 3 hours with my excel in the final turns of a cultural game in order to save a couple of turns, while everybody else is just pressing enter once and again.

I wrote that before reading the actual LC's detailed plan. The current plan looks very good and addresses my concerns about security (yet I'd like to see 1 more Axe) and exploration.

my concerns about security (yet I'd like to see 1 more Axe) and exploration.I agree pretty much. We're walking a bit a of a thin line over the next 20 turns, maybe. On the other hand, if there isonly 1 barb for 50 fogged tiles, as klarius wrote, then from the looks of our continent, there are only 2 barbs out there, other than the warrior on the Spices and the 2 south of Athens. So I don't think we're taking any drastic risks.

We should expect barbs to start attacking our cities though. And we don't want to kill any barb warriors just for XP. Let them roam and lower the odds of re-spawning as an axe.

Actually, we want to walk a thin line in a sense, to keep our unit costs down until we research Maths and build the Pyramids.

Just finished the turn set.

No major catastrophies but we don't have Math yet and our economy is in a bit of trouble.

We do have plenty of warriors/axes now to fend off any attacks from Hannibal or the Barbarians. So far Hannibal has only sent one attack archer out. He did get Hereditary Rule so now he can grow larger cities.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 940 BC to 805 BC:


Turn 105, 925 BC: You have trained a Settler in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 105, 925 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Athens. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 107, 895 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Ivory City has been founded.
Turn 109, 865 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 110, 850 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

Turn 111, 835 BC: Flood Plain has been founded.
Turn 111, 835 BC: Confucianism has spread in Ivory City.
Turn 111, 835 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 111, 835 BC: Churchill converts to Confucianism!
Turn 111, 835 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 111, 835 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 112, 820 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 112, 820 BC: Churchill adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 112, 820 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 112, 820 BC: Hannibal adopts Hereditary Rule!

The auto log.

Research begun: Mathematics (17 Turns)
Timbuktu finishes: Settler
Athens finishes: Warrior
Axeman promoted: Combat I
London finishes: Axeman
London begins: Worker (6 turns)
While defending in the wild, Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
London begins: Axeman (4 turns)
Athens grows: 5
Athens finishes: Work Boat
Athens begins: The Pyramids (27 turns)
York founded
Ivory City begins: Warrior (8 turns)
A Cottage was built near London
Judaism founded in a distant land
Research begun: Monotheism (1 Turns)
Tech learned: Monotheism
Research begun: Hunting (3 Turns)
York founded
Flood Plain begins: Warrior (22 turns)
Flood Plain begins: Monument (45 turns)
Confucianism has spread: Ivory City
Research begun: Mathematics (10 Turns)
Timbuktu begins: Courthouse (26 turns)

No major catastrophies...

:eek: You do realize that you have settled what should have been our GP farm in the middle of the desert? :cry: :cry: :cry:

And that it has no culture because you sent the missionary somewhere else? :cry: :cry: :cry:

:eek: You do realize that you have settled what should have been our GP farm in the middle of the desert? :cry: :cry: :cry:

And that it has no culture because you sent the missionary somewhere else? :cry: :cry: :cry:

:blush:

Oops. I thought that's where you guys said to put the city? :mad:

edit: My bad :sad:. I settled 1SW of where it was supposed to go.

:blush:

Oops. I thought that's where you guys said to put the city? :mad:

edit: My bad :sad:. I settled 1W of where it was supposed to go.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_940bc_Settler_adn_worker_route_plan.JPG

Actually, one SE SW of the desired spot.

Actually, one SE of the desired spot.

:hammer2:

Wow, that was really stupid of me. I thought that the site looked bad but somehow my train of thought was on going with the flow so to speak.

Ok, this calls for a total revision of the strategy. There is no way that FP city will be able to pop a GS in time without culture and enough farmable tiles.

I guess we will have to look at using Timbuktu to pop GS#2 despite the risk of a Prophet.

Ok, this calls for a total revision of the strategy. There is no way that FP city will be able to pop a GS in time without culture and enough farmable tiles.

I guess we will have to look at using Timbuktu to pop GS#2 despite the risk of a Prophet.

The FP city will have the wheat, gold and some floodplain tiles.

The FP city will have the wheat, gold and some floodplain tiles.

Yeah, it is a decent enough city, but with only four tiles giving positive growth it will grow much slower than intended. Also we have to fit in a monument or a library before the granary which will delay growth as well.

Yeah, it is a decent enough city, but with only four tiles giving positive growth it will grow much slower than intended. Also we have to fit in a monument or a library before the granary which will delay growth as well.

True, I'm sure one of you brilliant planners can come up with a fix for my folly. Maybe build a new settler in London for a new GP farm?

Ok, how about this:

We have three workers and 7 choppable forests at Ivory city.

1. Chop 6 forests for the Pyramids in Ivory city, gives 594 hammers (44*2.24*6). The city runs an artist for 3 turns to pop culture, then works Ivory for 4*2.25 = 9 hammers per turn. Pyramids done on T16 from now.
2. Athens chops a granary and a lighthouse and grows to run max scientists ASAP.
3. Timbuktu pops GS#2 at 300 GPP. (need to check the GS odds...)

No major catastrophies ...

That's the spirit Murky! No expectations dude :lol: And I just love the GP Farm site... You know, we spend 450 posts to plan for the Great Persons and what not, and then you follow Mitiu advice: just play :lol: Priceless....

Anyway, what's done is done. Now LC has to replan a bit :lol:

Just a few constructive comments to your turn set:

We want farms in our GP-Farm, not cottages :D
We need a unit next to Carthage to prevent improving the horses and the copper.
You leave Timbuktu thin on the defense. Is that on purpose? I notice you have invested in almost an axe. Thats clever since we save on the upkeep and still have defense when needed :goodjob:

Thanks Erkon. Well you know that LC was looking for a challenge for his turn set. :lol:

edit: I trully did try to follow the plan. Somehow I thought I was putting the FP city where you guys wanted at the time.

You do realize that you have settled what should have been our GP farm in the middle of the desert?

... and also lost one ( scarce ) flood plain by settling there ... :crazyeye:

That's the spirit Murky! No expectations dude :lol: And I just love the GP Farm site... You know, we spend 450 posts to plan for the Great Persons and what not, and then you follow Mitiu advice: just play :lol: Priceless....


:cool:
I hate to said so - but that's the side effect of having such a long disscusion : it is fully possible to skip some map like the one dotted by LC because you will consider it "another analysis map" ... :mischief:

Hmmm ... and Murky offered to let LC to play this round because he was probably the only person who have the clear ideea how to implement his ( vote-approved ) ideeas ... :rolleyes:

Ok, it looks as if we could have Athens at size 8 with a granary and library in place, timed for the completion of the pyramids on T16. We switch to Representation and start running 4 scientists in Athens on T18. GS#1 pops on T30 with a 4% risk of an artist. Lighthouse chopped on T20 since we research Sailing after Maths.

Timbuktu can be ready with 148 gpp and 4 scientists on T30. GS/GP#2 pops T41 with 39% risk of a prophet.

Athens takes over with 5 scientists on T41 and 132gpp already available. GS#3 (450 gpp) pops on T62 (8 turns late compared to original plan)

Timbuktu could pop yet another GS around T74.

Murky's folly was not anyone's fault beside Murky's. Let's try to recover from this as best we can and move on.

I don't see that we have to change horses now for the pyramids. Athens can now hand build a quick granary in 5 turns (2 @ slight starvation). Then build pyramids while growing and chop at the end (don't know what's done in pre-chops, but for sure a lot more than ivory).
I don't see why 3 workers should stay with ivory just to chop. Rather have only 1 there (maybe 1 more to come from London) and let the others go to FP and Athens.
FP city is not what we wanted, but still can work 5 scientists at size 9. Problem is just to get it up to that (granary).
We have to work artists to expand it (for the chops), everything else is much to slow.

I see two alternatives for speeding up the third GS in Athens:

1. Do an Alex and send our workboat all the way round the continent. I counted tiles and it might be able to get there on T41, right on time when the second GP pops in Timbuktu.
2. Capture Carthage and chop a Workboat first thing. We should look capturing it around T28 + 4(?) turns revolt+9 turns to move and net = T41. Is this possible? Sure it is. We can have 6 axes there as early as T11, with London building replacements for those we send there. An attack this early would be a gamble but the gain would be huge, possibly speeding up our 3rd GS with 6-7 turns.
6 axes will win against 3 archers.

1. Do an Alex {...}


I didn't get this ... :confused:


6 axes will win against 3 archers.

IMHO this is too gambling - and I don't belive that will be necessary to enter in panic now ... :rolleyes:

I see two alternatives for speeding up the third GS in Athens:


Well, we could also settle a city for that. That's for sure possible to do faster than moving a work boat and less risky than gambling our whole army (which we don't want to rebuild currently) on a short handed attack on a capital.

Gnejs, I tried to calculate the beakers from your suggestion and we lack a lot... I think we need to settle both Spice City and 2xGold to make this work.


We have three workers and 7 choppable forests at Ivory city. Chop 6 forests for the Pyramids in Ivory city, gives 594 hammers (44*2.24*6). The city runs an artist for 3 turns to pop culture, then works Ivory for 4*2.25 = 9 hammers per turn. Pyramids done on T16 from now.

Athens chop-builds a granary (T4) and library + lighthouse and grows to pop7 (T11) to run max 2 scientists ASAP. Athens will then grow organically (with 2 scientists) to size8 at ~T16.

We switch to Representation (T16) and start running 4 scientists in Athens on T18. GS#1 pops on T30 T28 with a 4% risk of an artist. Lighthouse chopped on T20 since we research Sailing after Maths. Grow to pop9 to run 5 scientists. Athens pop GS#2 on T48.

Timbuktu will employ scientists on T18 but will never pop a Great Person, although it will be as close as possible. pops GS#2 at 300 GPP.

FP city can run 4 scientists at pop7. Start with running artist for 4 turns. Then grow to pop7.

As of T50:
Total contribution from Athens: 30 turns * 5 scientists * (1.25*6) = 1125 beakers + 2xGS
Total contribution from FP City: 20 turns * 5 * 6 = 600 beakers

So, we lack 3500 beakers, which means we have to rely on Spice City and 2xGold city as well.

Hmm, not good.

I didn't get this ... :confused:

Erkon spotted a greek workboat north of Timbuktu. We guessed that it was on the way to the clams... :lol:

IMHO this is too gambling - and I don't belive that will be necessary to enter in panic now ... :rolleyes:

No panic, I am just trying to come up with some creative solutions to our apparent lack of great people points.

Well, we could also settle a city for that. That's for sure possible to do faster than moving a work boat and less risky than gambling our whole army (which we don't want to rebuild currently) on a short handed attack on a capital.

That would be Sparta resettled then. It is a decent city but will require a whole lot of worker turns to produce the two workboats and improve the horses and cattle. Probably we need to build a worker to go with the settler = 150+90 = 240 hammers. It is surely better to put those hammers into 4-5 axes and capture Carthage - which we anyway want to do.

How about the big GS/GP gamble.
Athens #1 and #2. Timbuktu #3.

Since we have OR, couldn't we just chop a missionary in Ivory City for Flood Plain City?

How about the big GS/GP gamble.
Athens #1 and #2. Timbuktu #3.

Yes, this is perhaps the fastest way. Athens and Timbuktu can have rougly equal GPP production, so it makes sense to divide the GS that way. GS1+GS2 = GS3 in terms of the number of required gpp. We might be able to pop the third one already on T58.

Gnejs, I tried to calculate the beakers from your suggestion and we lack a lot... I think we need to settle both Spice City and 2xGold to make this work.

Yes we are lacking beakers, but I think it isn't as bad as in your calculations. First, we need 3 GS and not 2, so we need to gamble on Timbuktu. But if we do that we will get 900:science: from Timbuktu and 1500:science: from Athens. FP city contributes another 600:science:. But we still have a way to go, I agree.

I don't see that we have to change horses now for the pyramids. Athens can now hand build a quick granary in 5 turns (2 @ slight starvation). Then build pyramids while growing and chop at the end (don't know what's done in pre-chops, but for sure a lot more than ivory).
I don't see why 3 workers should stay with ivory just to chop. Rather have only 1 there (maybe 1 more to come from London) and let the others go to FP and Athens.
FP city is not what we wanted, but still can work 5 scientists at size 9. Problem is just to get it up to that (granary).
We have to work artists to expand it (for the chops), everything else is much to slow.

I agree with klarius with everything above.

Actually, I think Murky is a POTENTIAL GENIUS! We have one :yuck: instead of two, and can thus chop our three forest and end up with the same :yuck:. Also, the farmed wheat gives one extra :food: compared to the cow. Ok, we can run 5 scientists instead of 6, but it's not that bad after all...

So, if we follow the old plan, what's next? Settlers for 2xGold and Spice City? Workers? Axes?

That would be Sparta resettled then. It is a decent city but will require a whole lot of worker turns to produce the two workboats and improve the horses and cattle. Probably we need to build a worker to go with the settler = 150+90 = 240 hammers. It is surely better to put those hammers into 4-5 axes and capture Carthage - which we anyway want to do.
Well you wanted 1 work boat for Athens. That's 6 worker turns for a chop. Nothing to do at Athens by this time, so we should find a worker for that.
Getting the city (not necessarily old Sparta site) up to speed is another story :).

I agree with klarius with everything above.

Actually, I think Murky is a POTENTIAL GENIUS! We have one :yuck: instead of two, and can thus chop our three forest and end up with the same :yuck:. Also, the farmed wheat gives one extra :food: compared to the cow. Ok, we can run 5 scientists instead of 6, but it's not that bad after all...

So, if we follow the old plan, what's next? Settlers for 2xGold and Spice City? Workers? Axes?

The problem with FP city is this:


We spent two turns in anarchy after settling which delayed the GS by two turns.
We need to run an artist for three turns, delaying the GS by three turns.
We need to spend more turns chopping = farms done later = further delay of the GS.
Once we reach size 5 the growth will start to slow down since there are no floodplains left to farm and we are left with one grassland and some plains tiles. At size 8 we will be looking at only +6:food:/turn. This further delays switching to scientist mode by a bunch of turns. Probably it doesn't make sense to grow larger than size 6 and run 3.5 scientists.

Conclusion: FP city will never produce a GS so we need to find one elsewhere. It will also run fewer scientists and never build a library. The total number of beakers produced is at least 400 less than the original plan.


Erkon, the old plan is dead.:deadhorse:

Another possibility to get a work boat for Athens would be a Drojf NE the marble (if there is a connection from there).
Not much of a production site, but gold fish and marble get decent commerce.
But then we better forget the scouting with the second wb and keep it around.

Another possibility to get a work boat for Athens would be a Drojf NE the marble (if there is a connection from there).
Not much of a production site, but gold fish and marble get decent commerce.
But then we better forget the scouting with the second wb and keep it around.

I have been thinking of this. Something like settling on the Marble and chop the Parthenon somewhere. But it seems very wasteful (the Parthenon, that is, and the very poor city site).

I have been thinking of this. Something like settling on the Marble and chop the Parthenon somewhere. But it seems very wasteful (the Parthenon, that is, and the very poor city site).
Well, if we have the worker turns to chop another 6 forests for the Parthenon on top of all the other stuff we have to do (don't think so), we can as well build a quarry.

Another idea for marble would be to do still another tech diversion :rolleyes: to literature. Save the chops in Athens (ok Ivory gets pyramids in this case) and get GLib and NE. But that probably would really only pay of for a quick 4th GS (or GA :eek:).

No panic, I am just trying to come up with some creative solutions to our apparent lack of great people points.

Very goood - I'm also very relaxed. In fond I must admint that I didn't like from the beginning the ideea of focusing only on GPP generation for getting Astronomy on a record-time ~1 AD. :blush:

What is the last save from the other teams ? I saw that last update from CRC team was on year 845 AD - didn't Alan post a message on their thread to suppose that they finnish at that date ? :rolleyes:
I mean ... if we will obtain Astronomy ~100-150 AD it could be more than enough ( if we build some units, set up several nice cities for production&commerce and so on ... ) ... ;)

My personal opinion - of course.

Got it.

We have our work cut out for us.

#1. Our beaker problem is finishing Maths pre-1AD now. :eek:
#2. I don't intend to finish any units. Can't afford the ones we have.

Question for Murky: Have barbs tried to enter our borders yet?

Some random ideas before I open my bottle of Jack:
1. klarius: Athens granary (5t) leaves 17:food: in the granary. What do you think of working the clams (+2g)? We get pop6 (T5), granary (T7) w/+10-15:food:. (Maths asap is the weak link now, not :hammers: in the Pyramids, I think.)

2. Since FP City is only a beaker farm now, maybe we should mine the gold after the first fp farm?

3. Hannibal's Power Graph: Mng(+2)>Hunting(+4)>warrior1(+5)>pop2(+6)>Archery(+12)>Mining(+14)>pop4(+15)>archer1(+17)>BronzeWorking(+25)>archer2(+27)>TheWheel(+31)>AnimalHusbandry(+33)>archer3(+35)>archer4(+37)>pop6(+38)>pop8(+39)>archer5(+41)

4. Let's hope Hannibal is building a settler in Carthage, although he can see our 2 axes from Carthage... :sad: ...so I doubt it.

5. I'm having trouble counting past 175 fogged tiles now, so barbs may be down to 3 units!

2. Since FP City is only a beaker farm now, maybe we should mine the gold after the first fp farm?


I honestly think that we should give up on FP city. Mine the gold, farm the Wheat, and then move on. Those worker turns are better spent elsewhere.

I honestly think that we should give up on FP city. Mine the gold, farm the Wheat, and then move on. Those worker turns are better spent elsewhere.Right. I'd farm the fp, though, for the extra 1g. We may not even need the wheat :health: for a long time. But after maths, we should chop the granary (1 chop).

Edit: Not totally give up on it, of course. It will provide lots of beakers later on.

Got it.

We have our work cut out for us.

#1. Our beaker problem is finishing Maths pre-1AD now. :eek:
#2. I don't intend to finish any units. Can't afford the ones we have.

Question for Murky: Have barbs tried to enter our borders yet?

Some random ideas before I open my bottle of Jack:
1. klarius: Athens granary (5t) leaves 17:food: in the granary. What do you think of working the clams (+2g)? We get pop6 (T5), granary (T7) w/+10-15:food:. (Maths asap is the weak link now, not :hammers: in the Pyramids, I think.)

2. Since FP City is only a beaker farm now, maybe we should mine the gold after the first fp farm?

3. Hannibal's Power Graph: Mng(+2)>Hunting(+4)>warrior1(+5)>pop2(+6)>Archery(+12)>Mining(+14)>pop4(+15)>archer1(+17)>BronzeWorking(+25)>archer2(+27)>TheWheel(+31)>AnimalHusbandry(+33)>archer3(+35)>archer4(+37)>pop6(+38)>pop8(+39)>archer5(+41)

4. Let's hope Hannibal is building a settler in Carthage, although he can see our 2 axes from Carthage... :sad: ...so I doubt it.

5. I'm having trouble counting past 175 fogged tiles now, so barbs may be down to 3 units!

No barbs entered our borders. There's a barb warrior hanging out down southwest of Athens somewhere. There's one west of London. I killed one in route to settle FP city. Hannibal has an Archer somewhere between Carthage and Timbuktu.

Got it.

Some random ideas before I open my bottle of Jack:
1. klarius: Athens granary (5t) leaves 17:food: in the granary. What do you think of working the clams (+2g)? We get pop6 (T5), granary (T7) w/+10-15:food:. (Maths asap is the weak link now, not :hammers: in the Pyramids, I think.)

I would say grow fast after the granary. You can build it in 6 (I would then still use 1 starvation turn to get good overflow into pyramids). Growing first and by that have an empty food box is worse, IMO. You can MM to 8 or even 9 food (at some hammer or commerce cost) to optimize growth (and filling the granary) then.

BTW, for maths, I think we should grow Timbuktu to 5 in 2 turns and work 3 scientists then until math.


4. Let's hope Hannibal is building a settler in Carthage, although he can see our 2 axes from Carthage... :sad: ...so I doubt it.

We have no units in his danger zone :).
He wouldn't care if there was a stack of 1000 units 3 tiles away. So nothing should keep him from building a settler. But he may do it in his second town (only one settler is built by the AI in one area at the same time).
But we may want to get away a bit from his wine, so he can build a winery for us. Though that's probably not possible as we would like to control his copper and horses.

A solution for our money problem:

Cash-chop three forests (four if we use the FP city worker) in Ivory city. We get the Organized Religion bonus as well, so three forests => 354:commerce: . Four forests => 497:commerce:.


Not until we get Maths though. :(

Well done, Murky! :goodjob:


:cool:
I hate to said so - but that's the side effect of having such a long disscusion : it is fully possible to skip some map like the one dotted by LC because you will consider it "another analysis map" ... :mischief:

Hmmm ... and Murky offered to let LC to play this round because he was probably the only person who have the clear ideea how to implement his ( vote-approved ) ideeas ... :rolleyes:

I don't agree. There was a single post to follow at the end of the discussion. And after all, that's what we come here looking for, discussion of different strategies and an opportunity to watch other people's minds at work.

So thank you very much, Murky, sincerelly, for this opportunity to discuss another 250 posts what we are going to do now (it's a pity you have already revolted to OR, not having done so would have required 500 posts of discussion now).

Beaker count, revisited
Rest of Maths 200(?)
Sailing 178
Calendar 625
Metal Casting 803
IW 357
Construction 625
Compass 715
Machinery 1253
Optics 1072 (GS)
Astronomy (2 GS)

We can do it with 4756 beakers + 3 great scientists. Let's see how it looks with Athens providing GS1 and GS2 and Timbuktu providing GS3 (Pyramids chopped in Ivory city).
GS1 in Athens on T28 (4% Artist) (running 4 scientists from T16 to T28)
GS2 in Athens on T47 (100% scientist) (running 5 scientists from T28 to T42, 6 scientists from T43 to T55)
GS3 in Timbuktu on T55 (33% prophet)

450 gpp from Timbuktu = 900 beakers
~600 gpp from Athens = 1500 beakers (library on T16 is worth 300 beakers)
FP city = 396 beakers (3 scientists@size 5 for 22 turns. It can be at size 5 on T33 if we 1. chop granary (T24), 2. farm two FP (T29,T34), using two workers from Ivory city after these have chopped the Pyramids. No culture needed
Cash-chop four forests = 500 beakers worth of gold
20 beakers/turn from commerce, 55 turns = 1100 beakers

Sum: 4398 beakers

We may be able to bring in the final beakers by settling 2xGold city as planned or by researching for two-three more turns. If we happen to pop a stupid prophet in Timbuktu (33%) we delay Astronomy by 15-20 turns and miss the gold medal.


PS. I haven't looked at how building the Pyramids in Athens would compare. Sending two of the Ivory city workers to FP city on T0 would let it run 3 scientists from T25 and gain us another 144 beakers there which isn't very much.

I hate to said so - but that's the side effect of having such a long disscusion : it is fully possible to skip some map like the one dotted by LC because you will consider it "another analysis map" ... :mischief:

Hmmm ... and Murky offered to let LC to play this round because he was probably the only person who have the clear ideea how to implement his ( vote-approved ) ideeas ... :rolleyes:What it tells me is that we forgot the last step, after our discussion:The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM6 team (including jesusin when applicable :p )

Before you start playing, please post a short plan for your turns set, If we had reminded Murky to do this, we would have seen where he understood and misunderstood the plan from the discussion. Then we could have asked him to adjust his plan and present it again...

Let's not make that mistake again.The player makes a Turnset Plan before playing.If you don't have time to make a Turnset Plan, then swap your turn with someone who does. ;)


.

1. @Murky: Exactly which tiles did you pre-chop at Athens?

2. @klarius: When MMing for the 20% research bonus, we prefer for our research total to be, for example, 20:science: or 25:science:, right? Now, we get one :science: for free. So is it enough to simply look at the F2 screen and see Research (x%) 19
to get the 4:science: bonus on 20:science:, even if we're using specialists? Or does the 20% only count on the free beaker plus the :commerce: put into research total?

2. @klarius: When MMing for the 20% research bonus, we prefer for our research total to be, for example, 20:science: or 25:science:, right? Now, we get one :science: for free. So is it enough to simply look at the F2 screen and seeResearch (x%) 19to get the 4:science: bonus on 20:science:, even if we're using specialists? Or does the 20% only count on the free beaker plus the :commerce: put into research total?
If you really want to squeeze out the last fraction of a beaker, it's not that simple in warlords :crazyeye: (though you're generally right - what you see in F2 + 1 should be divisible by 5).
But every research percentage other than 100% has the potential to waste a fraction of a beaker which isn't recovered as gold (in contrast to vanilla). The commerce rates (gold, beakers, culture) are summed up in 1/100 then the empire wide sum is truncated to integer. So mostly the sum of beakers and gold is one smaller than the total coins generated.

But every research percentage other than 100% has the potential to waste a fraction of a beaker which isn't recovered as gold (in contrast to vanilla). Does this mean that to get the absolute full amount, I need to optimize on a city-by-city basis, to avoid fractions and have the total from all fractionless cities plus the free beaker equal a 20% threshold?

Does this mean that to get the absolute full amount, I need to optimize on a city-by-city basis, to avoid fractions and have the total from all fractionless cities plus the free beaker equal a 20% threshold?
Fractions in cities are no problem. What's truncated is the fraction empire wide. So e.g. 50% slider and an even beaker and gold count empire wide doesn't waste anything, though several cities might have x.5 beakers.
The easiest way to avoid the truncation (as long as there are no libraries) is still binary research, then look if one can optimize by tile/specialist assignments for the bonus.

Ok, I have looked at Pyramids in Athens also. I figure we can finish the Granary on T7 and the Pyramids on T14 using 5 chops (if enough pre-chopping has been done so far). Athens runs 4 scientists and pops GS#1 on T25, then runs 5 scientists until GS#2 pops on T42, then runs 6 scientists.
Timbuktu grows to size 9, then runs 6 scientists at -1 food starting T34 (assumes that we have two banana plantations by then) and pops GS#3 on T49. Yes, this seems much better.

Let's compare the two approaches:

Athens Pyramids
#1 T25 (3.75% GA, 13.75% GE, 82.5% GS)
#2 T42 (12% GE, 88% GS)
#3 T49 (~35% GP)
Frees up Ivory city for chopping units/workers/settlers
Frees up 2 ivory city workers, or lets Ivory city cash-chop some walls
Less beakers from Athens due to delayed Library
More beakers from FP city due to quicker growth using Ivory city workers

Ivory City Pyramids
#1 T28 (4% GA)
#2 T47 (100% GS)
#3 T55 (33% GP, 67% GS)
All our cities except London will be tied up with buildings, slower REX
More beakers from Athens due to early Library
Less beakers from FP city due to slower growth


Pyramids in Athens sure looks better.

2. farm two FP (T29,T34), using two workers from Ivory city after these have chopped the Pyramids. We already have 78:hammers: invested in the Pyramids in Athens. What happens to these hammers if we complete the Pyramids in Ivory City?

klarius, where do you think Hannibal islikely to send his next settler now that we've taken the ivory? Sparta? Or will he send it to Ivory, maybe not knowing we've already settled there?

If we move one axe closer to Hannibal 2nd City and he's building a settler there, he'll switch to archer if he's not within 3 turns of finishing the settler, right? Would he then switch his Carthage build from archer to settler, by any chance?

klarius, where do you think Hannibal islikely to send his next settler now that we've taken the ivory? Sparta? Or will he send it to Ivory, maybe not knowing we've already settled there?

If we move one axe closer to Hannibal 2nd City and he's building a settler there, he'll switch to archer if he's not within 3 turns of finishing the settler, right? Would he then switch his Carthage build from archer to settler, by any chance?
I still think the ivory region is interesting for Hannibal. There are still sites where he could get an ivory, which he doesn't have up to now and is very valuable. Former Sparta isn't that interesting as he already has cattle and horses in Carthage.

Hannibal could switch. But anyway it's unlikely that he builds a settler in the second city already. He should build a monument there first (but could be finished already).

We already have 78:hammers: invested in the Pyramids in Athens. What happens to these hammers if we complete the Pyramids in Ivory City?

They are turned into gold (Mydas King or Philosophal Stone, someone?).

Better continue with Athens.

Pyramids in Athens sure looks better.

I totally agree. We've already invested some :hammers: into anyway.

Does everyone agree on Gnejs' plan for the pyramids and the GS's? Ok, I know it's perhaps not Gnejs' plan, but you know what I mean...

Then we have the build order in the other cities. LC, can you draft a plan? We need more workers, so either we build them in London, or we steal them from Hannibal. Eventually we need more cities, but that's in the future, yes?

LC, if you think we can't afford our units, why not waste them on Hannibal Cities? Carthage for example after he has completed the settler?

Well, I agree roughly.
But I don't know if we can get math in time to hold the T14 pyramids date if we don't work scientists before.

Before doing something crazy like wasting axes, we should rather disband warriors, if the unit support would be really critical. We for sure don't have too many quality troops.

I think we'll get Maths during my turnset and klarius' plan for Athens is slightly better (Pyramids T13 or earlier). I need to calculate how many scientists we can use in Timbuktu and still pop the first GL in Athens. I think we should focus on hand-built REX. Carthage is too soon, too big a burden financially, and we need too many axes for it.

Maybe a Spice City settler in London, worker in Timbuktu and begin chopping the 2xGold settler in Ivory City, although I think Ivory City needs a granary first.

I hate to waste more worker turns sending one back down to Athens. Don't see a good way to avoid it though.

LC, if you think we can't afford our units, why not waste them on Hannibal Cities? Carthage for example after he has completed the settler?

LC, if you don't attack Hannibal this turnset I don't know if I can restrain myself from doing it during the next. :D

Seriously, if we complete the axes in London and Timbuktu this turn we will have what, 9? axes. 7 of those will be within striking distance of Hannibals cities during LC's turnset. London also has the possibility to build 2 more in the coming ten turns so we do have some backup to handle the barbs. We should seriously consider going after either Carthage or the second city. I am not advocating any suicide attacks but if we don't put a stack of axes next to one of Hannibals cities we might miss a golden opportunity to either capture those two workers or to get another capital.

I totally agree. We've already invested some :hammers: into anyway.Murky, I would like to know which Athens tiles you pre-chopped. I think I can count that the southern worker finished Athens SE, then pre-chopped Athens S and is now working on Athens SW. What about the worker you sent away? Did he pre-chop the roaded forest before you sent him away?

I think we'll get Maths during my turnset and klarius' plan for Athens is slightly better (Pyramids T13 or earlier). I need to calculate how many scientists we can use in Timbuktu and still pop the first GL in Athens. I think we should focus on hand-built REX. Carthage is too soon, too big a burden financially, and we need too many axes for it.

Maybe a Spice City settler in London, worker in Timbuktu and begin chopping the 2xGold settler in Ivory City, although I think Ivory City needs a granary first.

I hate to waste more worker turns sending one back down to Athens. Don't see a good way to avoid it though.

Timbuktu needs to build a Granary and start growing. We need it at size 9 on T34 latest. If you can fit a worker in also it would be good, just make sure about growing quickly enough.

I think it may be better to go after Hannibals city #2 for the 2 workers there. Pity that he sneaked an archer in there, because that city is definitely not building any units very fast. Btw, if we raze it we also get some loot to finance a little bit of research.

LC, if you don't attack Hannibal this turnset I don't know if I can restrain myself from doing it during the next. :D

Seriously, if we complete the axes in London and Timbuktu this turn we will have what, 9? axes. 7 of those will be within striking distance of Hannibals cities during LC's turnset. London also has the possibility to build 2 more in the coming ten turns so we do have some backup to handle the barbs. We should seriously consider going after either Carthage or the second city. I am not advocating any suicide attacks but if we don't put a stack of axes next to one of Hannibals cities we might miss a golden opportunity to either capture those two workers or to get another capital.Mitiu is next after me, so I have no worries. :p

Gnejs, what's the big hurry? Okay, I can understand capturing the 2 workers. I could move the axe off the hill immediately and find out if the second city has any workers in it. But I don't see any reason to strangle our REX right now to capture not-particularly-mega-city-but-financially-expensive Carthage.

Murky

Where did you see that Hannibal archer and how many turns ago? Was it going toward the second city? Do you think it's already there?

Mitiu is next after me, so I have no worries. :p

Lol, forgot about that! Sorry, Mitiu. :)

Gnejs, what's the big hurry? Okay, I can understand capturing the 2 workers. I could move the axe off the hill immediately and find out if the second city has any workers in it. But I don't see any reason to strangle our REX right now to capture not-particularly-mega-city-but-financially-expensive Carthage.

Carthage has its uses. Not the least if can build us an eastern navy and a bunch of troops to go with it, and that second workboat for Athens. Or, if there is a second seafood resource (Hannibal always seem to get lots of these) it can double as a science city. It is already at size 7 so will immediately be able to pay for itself using 3 scientists if it has nothing better to do. It is also on the plains, so we only need a 2-1 advantage to take it.

Edit: It also has a lighthouse

Murky, I would like to know which Athens tiles you pre-chopped. I think I can count that the southern worker finished Athens SE, then pre-chopped Athens S and is now working on Athens SW. What about the worker you sent away? Did he pre-chop the roaded forest before you sent him away?

I think all the forest around Athens are within 2 turns of being chopped.

Murky

Where did you see that Hannibal archer and how many turns ago? Was it going toward the second city? Do you think it's already there?

It was NW of Carthage, sighted by our Axemen.

Kill'em! Kill'em all!!! :aargh: :ar15:

Carthage has its uses... It is also on the plains, so we only need a 2-1 advantage to take it.Okay, I see your point. Carthage can pay for itself with the lighthouse. So, did you figure it all out??? Not? I did... ;)

I believe Hannibal completed his archer 2t, maybe 3t ago (not sure which, based on the graph, but it had to have enough time to pass our axes). At that point his food output went from 19:food: to 29:food: and hammers from 14h down to 4h (= settler build, my guess). Assuming he has pop2 in 2nd City, that means he's building a settler at 10:food::hammers:/t. If 2nd City is pop1 still, then it's 13:food::hammers:/t (and he has netted fish, btw, but I'm skeptical). This all means that he might poprush his settler in 3-4t. If we have our SoD on the NW plains hill, they'll see the settler move toward the ivory. On that same turn our SoD moves on Carthage and if the settler overflow is small enough, which I think it will be, we'll have a 1-turn window of opportunity to catch him with his pants down. Getting excited yet?

Too bad. There's a catch. Our SoD is 5 turns away. :cry:

But it does raise an interesting question for klarius: Where do you think we should post our axes to capture his settler entourage on a grassland tile?

Maybe a Spice City settler in London, worker in Timbuktu and begin chopping the 2xGold settler in Ivory City, although I think Ivory City needs a granary first.


Did we really afford two more cities ?? :rolleyes:

Did we really afford two more cities ?? :rolleyes:Once we have representation, it shouldn't be a problem. We can't afford not to build more cities.

Turnset Plan (updated as of post #1360)

Builds
Athens: granary>Pyramids
London: settler(1t)>(axe)>settler
Timbutku: axe>granary (with some emphasis on scientists)
Ivory City: granary
FP City: granary

Workers
2 stay in Ivory City: improve cattle asap, horses
1 in FP City: farm fp(4t)> chop
1 vagabond: farm fp(1t)> pre-chop for Ivory City>move to Athens forest(T10)
1 in Athens: pre-chop forests, road...

Citizens
Athens: MM for 5t granary, then growth to pop7 and finishing pyramids ~T13
London: work dyes rather than mine
TImbuktu: growth to pop5 in 2t, then 2 scientists for 8 turns
Ivory City: 3 turns artist, then growth
FP City: 4turns artist, then growth

Units
sentry Hannibal's horses
1 axe to Athens
prepare to capture Hannibal settler (where to sentry?), possibly 2nd City

Research
Math>Sailing

LC, do you plan to complete the axes in London and Timbuktu, or will you keep them latent and complete if under threat?

LC, have you given consideration to reaching size 9 on T34 in Timbuktu? We need to grow before Calendar and plantations come in.

Allow me to consider it myself:
A granary is 9 turns at max prod, then we need about 138 food to grow from pop 5 to pop 9. Our current max surplus is +8 food. This takes 18 turns at max food (8*18=144). We therefore need the granary completed on T16. Ergo, you need to start building it at 10 hammers per turn no later than T7.

LC, do you plan to complete the axes in London and Timbuktu, or will you keep them latent and complete if under threat?Planning to keep them latent till Maths, if possible, unless we come up with a plan to usetham against Hannibal.

LC, have you given consideration to reaching size 9 on T34 in Timbuktu? We need to grow before Calendar and plantations come in.

Allow me to consider it myself:
A granary is 9 turns at max prod, then we need about 138 food to grow from pop 5 to pop 9. Our current max surplus is +8 food. This takes 18 turns at max food (8*18=144). We therefore need the granary completed on T16. Ergo, you need to start building it at 10 hammers per turn no later than T7.So you're saying no more workers and settlers out of Timbuktu. What you say here sounds workable to me, because I don't think we can use scietnists more than a few turns. I assume you're completing the granary when we have 50% food in stock?

So you're saying no more workers and settlers out of Timbuktu. What you say here sounds workable to me, because I don't think we can use scietnists more than a few turns. I assume you're completing the granary when we have 50% food in stock?

No, in those calculations I assumed you grew to pop 5 on T2 and then had zero growth due to scientists from then until granary completed T16. You can do much better of course.

I'm not finding any power moves for this turnset. Kind of drab. Am I missing something?

I'm not finding any power moves for this turnset. Kind of drab. Am I missing something?

Hmm, do we need to change direction? You know, jesusin wanted another 250 posts so why not think of something else? What if our target is not Astronomy asap, but 9 loaded galleons filled with units asap, and target Feudalism for vassal states?

What if our target is not Astronomy asap, but 9 loaded galleons filled with units asap, and target Feudalism for vassal states?

Good ideea - in fact that is what I said 2 or 3 pages ago - but AFAIK in "Always war" didn't exist the posibility to vassalize - no ? :confused:


The problem with FP city is this:

We need to run an artist for three turns, delaying the GS by three turns.
We need to spend more turns chopping = farms done later = further delay of the GS.
Once we reach size 5 the growth will start to slow down since there are no floodplains left to farm and we are left with one grassland and some plains tiles. At size 8 we will be looking at only +6/turn. This further delays switching to scientist mode by a bunch of turns. Probably it doesn't make sense to grow larger than size 6 and run 3.5 scientists.

Gnejs - honestly I didn't get you here ...
With enough farming around FP could reach stable population of 10 which will be :
- the happiness limit with ivory connected or a missionary built to spread confucianism + representation
- also the healthiness limit - which is at 9 with wheat farmed ( actually is at 8 ) and the last citizen will be unhealthy and will eat 3 food instead of 2 => 21 needed food which is exactely what we will obtain from : 3 farmed flood plains X 4 + 1 farmed wheat X 4 + 1 farmed grassland X 3 + city tile own food !
The population will consist in 5 scientist ( with representation this mean 30 b/turn - more than we produce now on whole empire ) and 5 poor farmers to feed the philosophers ...
If we will chop the grassland tile which will be latter farmed just after the worker finnish his actual work ( which need to be changed from cottage -> farm ) than we will have a border expansion in 40 turns ( I could imagine that we will be able to finish maths until the chop will be done ) without running any artists in the city ? Or in turn 30 if we run an artist for 5 turns after the monument will be built to get 3 culture point per turn.
This sound quite acceptable for me - considering that the city will reach size 4 in ~23 turns from now - almost exactely in time for having a citizen employed as artist. Anyway - the problem in the original plan was quite the same as now - we will need ~55 turns only for farming the tiles needed to feed the city. The difference is that at size 5 we will have +6 food instead of +8 on the initial location. Clearly a disadvantage - but we need to live with it ...

I just tried to figure out the best way to optimize the actual placement for FP city. :)

BTW - we didn't need hunting asap also for +1 happiness from ivory in your scenarios ?

Good ideea - in fact that is what I said 2 or 3 pages ago - but AFAIK in "Always war" didn't exist the posibility to vassalize - no ? :confused:



Gnejs - honestly I didn't get you here ...
With enough farming around FP could reach stable population of 10 which will be :
- the happiness limit with ivory connected or a missionary built to spread confucianism + representation
- also the healthiness limit - which is at 9 with wheat farmed ( actually is at 8 ) and the last citizen will be unhealthy and will eat 3 food instead of 2 => 21 needed food which is exactely what we will obtain from : 3 farmed flood plains X 4 + 1 farmed wheat X 4 + 1 farmed grassland X 3 + city tile own food !
The population will consist in 5 scientist ( with representation this mean 30 b/turn - more than we produce now on whole empire ) and 5 poor farmers to feed the philosophers ...
If we will chop the grassland tile which will be latter farmed just after the worker finnish his actual work ( which need to be changed from cottage -> farm ) than we will have a border expansion in 40 turns ( I could imagine that we will be able to finish maths until the chop will be done ) without running any artists in the city ? Or in turn 30 if we run an artist for 5 turns after the monument will be built to get 3 culture point per turn.
This sound quite acceptable for me - considering that the city will reach size 4 in ~23 turns from now - almost exactely in time for having a citizen employed as artist. Anyway - the problem in the original plan was quite the same as now - we will need ~55 turns only for farming the tiles needed to feed the city. The difference is that at size 5 we will have +6 food instead of +8 on the initial location. Clearly a disadvantage - but we need to live with it ...

I just tried to figure out the best way to optimize the actual placement for FP city. :)

BTW - we didn't need hunting asap also for +1 happiness from ivory in your scenarios ?

Mitiu, let me explain my reasoning with some numbers. Assume we have two workers dedicated to FP city and that they chop a granary on T10 (with Maths), farms FP on T15, T20, T25, farms wheat on T30, farms grass on T35.
Start by working an artist for four turns to get a border expansion for full value chops. This is the growth curve for FP city as best as I can do.

T4 0/33 food, +3f/t (working FP)
T10 18/33 food, +3f/t, granary starts filling up
T15 pop2, 15/36 food, +5 f/t (working FP + farmed FP)
T20 pop3, 22/39 food, +7 f/t (working FP + 2xfarmed FP)
T23 pop4, 21/42 food, +7 f/t (working FP + 2xfarmed FP + wheat)
T25 , 35/42 food, +8 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + wheat)
T26 pop5, 22/45 food, +8 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + wheat + grass)
T29 pop6, 23/48 food, +7 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + wheat + grass + plains)
T30 , 30/48 food, +9 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + farmed wheat + grass + plains)
T32 pop7, 24/51 food, +8 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + farmed wheat + grass + 2xplains)
T35 , 48/51 food, +9 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + farmed wheat + farmed grass + 2xplains)
T36 pop8, 31/54 food, +8 f/t (working 3xfarmed FP + farmed wheat + farmed grass + 3xplains)
T39 pop9, 28/57 food

The potential of this city lies both in the representation beakers as well as in the generated gpp points. The beakers is simply 2xgpp since a scientist gives 3 gpp and 6 beakers with representation. Here is how many accumulated beakers and gpp we can have by switching to scientist mode on different turns.

3 scientists@pop5, starting from T26:
T43 153 gpp, 306 beakers
T60 306 gpp, 612 beakers
T76 450 gpp, 900 beakers

3.67 scientist@pop6, starting from T29:
T43 154 gpp, 308 beakers
T57 308 gpp, 616 beakers
T70 451 gpp, 902 beakers

4 scientists@pop7, starting from T32:
T45 156 gpp, 312 beakers
T57 300 gpp, 600 beakers
T70 456 gpp, 912 beakers

4.67 scientists@pop8, starting from T36:
T47 154 gpp, 308 beakers
T58 308 gpp, 616 beakers
T69 462 gpp, 924 beakers

5 scientists@pop9, starting on T39:
T49 150 gpp, 300 beakers
T59 300 gpp, 600 beakers
T69 450 gpp, 450 beakers


To put the figures into perspective, Athens can have 150 gpp by T24 and 450 gpp by T42. If we use Timbuktu as a GS farm we can have 450 gpp there by T49. As you can see FP city is about 20 turns late compared to this. So instead of growing to max size we should use FP city to generate the most beakers by around T49 (which is when we will shut down research, at least if Timbuktu pops a GS). The optimum is then to use 3.67 scientists which gives us 440 beakers on T49. But I would argue that we should skip the third farm to save 10 worker turns at the expense of 0.17 of a scientist. The workers are then free to go elsewhere on T20.

Carthage has ... a lighthouseSleep ... perchance to dream. And awake ... to understand the significance of this trivial mutterance. I've been waiting for Hannibal to research Sailing. That's worth 2 points on the power graph, which means my interpretation of H's power graph was wrong. I attributed 2 points to an archer rather than Sailing! H has one less archer than I figured!! H was probably guarding 2nd City with a warrior throughout Murky's turnset!!! So now I'm assuming Hannibal has 1 warrior and 1 archer in 2nd City along with a worker or two (I'll find out T1). If he doesn't complete another archer there before T5, I should be able to capture 2nd City at the loss of just one axe. Cheap price to pay for 1-2 workers, especially since Gnejs has informed us that Timbuktu's builds are now granary>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit>unit, so it can grow to pop9. (Note that this also means that Hannibal is building a settler now with only 1 archer to escort it!)

Slight change of plans, Gentlemen. I will be completing those 2 axes on T1. Hopefully, that'll solve the other problem that's been nagging at me--how to provide a worker to chop the granary at Spice City?

Gnejs: How do your calculations for FP City look mining and working the gold T6-T10 and FP City having only 1 worker until about T14?

Gnejs: How do your calculations for FP City look mining and working the gold T6-T10 and FP City having only 1 worker until about T14?

Depends on what the worker does. Why do you want to mine the gold? Is it to speed up Maths? The mine will be done on T7 earliest - maybe later if that is a desert hill and mining takes longer on those (does it?).

our target is not Astronomy asap, but 9 loaded galleons filled with units asap, and target Feudalism for vassal states?Erkon's been spending too much time in Worldbuilder again... :lol:

Depends on what the worker does. Why do you want to mine the gold? Is it to speed up Maths? The mine will be done on T7 earliest - maybe later if that is a desert hill and mining takes longer on those (does it?).Yes, to speed up maths. Yes, it's a desert, yes it takes longer unless the vagabond worker going to Athens stops to help. (Edit: So make that T7-T10).

Yes, to speed up maths. Yes, it's a desert, yes it takes longer unless the vagabond worker going to Athens stops to help.

Ok. Well, then I would expect the granary to be chopped on T18, FPs farmed T23 and T28
5 turns working the gold, 18 turns working the city tile = 33 hammers. How much is two chops from outside the culture? Lets assume that it is enough to complete the granary, then we can skip the artist.
T5 pop1, 15/33f +3f
T10 pop1, 15/33f +3f
T16 pop2, 0/36f +4f
T18 pop2, 8/36f +4f
T23 pop2, 28/36f, +5f
T25 pop3, 20/39f, +6f
T28 pop3, 38/39f, +7f
T29 pop4, 25/42f, +5f (work gold here)
T33 pop5, 24/48f, work 2xfarmed FP + gold + 2 scientists
On T49 we have 192 beakers from scientists and 5+20 turns of working the gold = 175 commerce. Total roughly 367 beakers/commerce. We have 70 beakers less on T49, and have spent an additional number of worker turns to mine the gold.

Okay, so I have to figure out how to finish Maths on T10 without the FP gold mine. Btw, I think in your calculations higher up you forgot that the 2 workers would get in 7t (or 6t to prioritize the Pyramids) of farming before chopping the forests. On the other hand, I think I would send one of the pre-choppers to Athens on T9, so the FP City granary would get chopped T10/T12, completed on T13. So the 1st fp farm would be done on T16.

Also, don't forget the desert hill gold only gives 2:hammers:.

I think math on T10 is not possible w/o hurting our future too much or getting money from Hannibal :crazyeye: .
And his second will not give a lot even if you could get it as it doesn't exist long enough.
The only hope would be to capture Carthage, which looks a bit difficult. Though you never know. With perfect timing (settler just left with 2 escorts), it might be possible.
But do we really want to waste a lot money on troop support for units moving there, just to learn that we cannot do anything?

If we finish the Prymids on T13 (chop T10, T11, T12) and revolt to Representation, we start collecting 14 ggps/t on T15. We already have 6gpps and I think we get 2 the turn the Pryamids are completed, but it doesn't matter. We need an maximum of 10 mor turns to pop the GL = T25.

Timbuktu has 36 ggps + 25*2 = 86. That leaves us 21 scientist-turns in TImbuktu, cutting it as tightly as possible, = 63:science: * 1.2 = 78:science:.

We need 285:beakers for Math. 285-78= 207/10t= 21:science:/t. That's just about right. I'll run maybe 16 scientist-turns in Timbuktu, of course, so I'll have to make it up elsewhere.

Speaking of which: The workers are then free to go elsewhere on T20.where is this elusive Elsewhere? And why do we keep sending our workers there? :crazyeye:

crosspost with klarius!

I think math on T10 is not possible w/o hurting our future too much or getting money from Hannibal :crazyeye: .
And his second will not give a lot even if you could get it as it doesn't exist long enough.
The only hope would be to capture Carthage, which looks a bit difficult. Though you never know. With perfect timing (settler just left with 2 escorts), it might be possible.
But do we really want to waste a lot money on troop support for units moving there, just to learn that we cannot do anything?We'll learn a lot on T1 when we peek into 2nd City. I'd be happy to play that turn and post the contents of 2nd City.

EDIT: Anyway, I agree with you. I'm not planning to do anything extreme, militarily or otherwise. If I'm somewhere in teh middle of my turnset and have a notion, I'll run it past you guys first. Just trying to figure out how to squeeze as much blood out fo this turnset as I can. :)

Okay, so I have to figure out how to finish Maths on T10 without the FP gold mine. Btw, I think in your calculations higher up you forgot that the 2 workers would get in 7t (or 6t to prioritize the Pyramids) of farming before chopping the forests. On the other hand, I think I would send one of the pre-choppers to Athens on T9, so the FP City granary would get chopped T10/T12, completed on T13. So the 1st fp farm would be done on T16.

Also, don't forget the desert hill gold only gives 2:hammers:.

I guess you are right.

When it comes to FP city I am not sure which would be the best: stop growth early and get some more beakers, or grow for a longer period getting less beakers but whipping more hammers post-Astro. If we compare e.g. pop6 and pop9 the difference is 114 beakers better for pop6 and 169 hammers better for pop9 (assuming police state). 114 beakers is almost 1 turn of delay for Astronomy while 169 hammers is almost 2 war elephants. I think I know what Erkon would prefer though... :)

If we finish the Prymids on T13 (chop T10, T11, T12) and revolt to Representation, we start collecting 14 ggps/t on T15. We already have 6gpps and I think we get 2 the turn the Pryamids are completed, but it doesn't matter. We need an maximum of 10 mor turns to pop the GL = T25.

Timbuktu has 36 ggps + 25*2 = 86. That leaves us 21 scientist-turns in TImbuktu, cutting it as tightly as possible, = 63:science: * 1.2 = 78:science:.

We need 285:beakers for Math. 285-78= 207/10t= 21:science:/t. That's just about right. I'll run maybe 16 scientist-turns in Timbuktu, of course, so I'll have to make it up elsewhere.

Speaking of which: where is this elusive Elsewhere? And why do we keep sending our workers there? :crazyeye:

crosspost with klarius!

From where do you get the 1.2* in Timbuktu? And the difference betwen a riverside mine and a scientist is only 2 beakers. It might be better to delay everything for one turn. We might be able to make it up by using the surplus food gathered during that turn to run some negative food scientists for the second GS.

The next city we settle will have to be named Elsewhere. :)

From where do you get the 1.2* in Timbuktu? And the difference betwen a riverside mine and a scientist is only 2 beakers.

The next city we settle will have to be named Elsewhere. :)That's just the research bonus. The 2 beaker difference is after Representation, of course.

EDIT: Turnset Plan updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6399017&postcount=1340).

EDIT: Turnset Plan updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6399017&postcount=1340).

Plan looks good.

Why the queue-swapping in London?
Timbuktu: I assume that you will only be running scientists until Math is in. That means that the city will grow with 4 food/turn while Mitiu completes the granary. I think you might then afford to delay the granary a little compared to what I wrote previously. I assumed no growth then...

Otherwise, good luck!

Plan looks good.

Why the queue-swapping in London?
Timbuktu: I assume that you will only be running scientists until Math is in. That means that the city will grow with 4 food/turn while Mitiu completes the granary. I think you might then afford to delay the granary a little compared to what I wrote previously. I assumed no growth then...

Otherwise, good luck!London: because I don't want to complete that axe unless I see the need for him on T1.

Guess I'll play tomorrow morning if no one wants to discuss further.

Looks like a promising turn set LC

LC - why a granary in FP and not a library first ? :mischief:
GRAnnary too will take a lot to finnish and the city will be around maximum size at that moment anyway ...

Anyway is a good plan - I wish you good luck !! :)

LC - why a granary in FP and not a library first ? :mischief:
GRAnnary too will take a lot to finnish and the city will be around maximum size at that moment anyway ...

Anyway is a good plan - I wish you good luck !! :)What maximum size are you talking about? Pop5, pop7, pop10? Gnejs has already presented the details on the optimum way to handle FP City, given our time constraints (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6401640&postcount=1348). The idea is to finish 2 chops for the granary as soon as Mathematics is researched. Without a granary, FP City will take almost twice as long to grow.

The library is almost useless until we've started working scientists and we can't work scientists until we've grown our population. Granaries are one of the most valuable, even over-valued, builds in CIV. The sooner we build one the sooner we start growing twice as fast.

The library would be nice, but would be completed so late that the 25% it offers would amount to very little before Astronomy.

T1 - Hannibal's second city is Utica, pop1, and has 2 archers and a warrior in it. I won't complete the axe in London yet.

T2 - Our 4/4 axe moving toward Hannibal's horses runs straight into a Hannibal archer. Guess I'll promote him to +archer? No, 99% odds if attacked by archer. I'll leave him unpromoted. Furs spied on the eastern leg of the wishbone south of Athens. Working 2 scientists in Timbuktu gives me 24:science: at 40% and -1g. Working 3 scientists in TImbuktu gives me 27:science: at 40% and -2g. I set Timbuktu to 2 scientists.

Do we want to send our workboat scouting up to the North and risk running into a barb galley or just put it in our London culture and lower our unit supply cost?

T3 - 2nd furs potted S of Athens. Looks like Marble drojf may be enough but not certain yet. Hannibal archer goes W instead of attacking. I ignore him so my axe can sentry the horses and copper. An axe coming from Ivory will pick up his threat. Switch Athens to 20h/t. Ivory City borders expand. Citizen works ivory to get the bonus hammer. Barbs still not attacking our cities. Hannibal's graphs unchanging.

T4 - barb warrior appears in FP City. Axe eliminates him. FP City borders expand. Citizen works fp.

T5 - Athens granary done, work clams for 4t pop growth. Barb warrior appears N of Timbuktu. Carthage has netted fish. Hannibal still hasn't poprushed. Hannibal archer now on outskirts of FP City.

T6 - Ivory cattle pastured. Timbuktu switch 1 scientist to hill, granary in 8t. Research rate to 50%, Mathematics in 4t. Hannibal's archer crosses FP City borders. Utica grows to pop2.

T7 - More MM to optimize a bunch of stuff. Hannibal's archer's bones lie rotting in the desert sun. Hannibal seems to have completed an archer on his power graph. Maybe in Utica? Time to finish the axe in London.

T8 - Barb warrior spotted NE of Carthage. Axe completed in London.

T9 - Hmm...barb warrior N of TImbuktu + Hannibal archer/warrior pair to the S. Sending an axe up from Ivory City. At least 4 barb warriors are roaming our continent?! Does klarius' formula round up or do we have more than 200 fogged tiles?

T10 - H archer/warrior move N to Timbuktu border. Mathematics done. Chop 1 forest for FP City granary, 1 for Ivory City granary, 1 in Athens. Writing in information signs for Mitiu and stupidly hit enter for one of the messages, not realizing that ends the turn. Everything was already set up for next turn, luckily, except a stupid axe build in London which I had set up just to see how fast London was growing, so the settler is delayed 1 turn... :cry:

One more thing: No apparent southern access to Athens clams

Turn log:Turn 115, 775 BC: The borders of Ivory City have expanded!

Turn 116, 760 BC: The borders of FP City have expanded!

Turn 117, 745 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 117, 745 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Athens. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.

Turn 120, 700 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.00)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 120, 700 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 120, 700 BC: You have trained a Axeman in London. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 122, 670 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 122, 670 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 123, 655 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 123, 655 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Ivory City.
Turn 123, 655 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for FP City.
Turn 123, 655 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Ivory City. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 124, 640 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Athens.
Outlook: Granaries in Timbuktu and FP City will be done in 2 turns. The chops for Athens will be done in 3 turns (turns out the forest S of the gold still had 2 turns of chopping :sad:, had I known, it would ahve been perfect--pop7 and all chops finished on the same turn.) London settler done next turn. Horses pastured next turn.

Decisions to make for Mitiu's turnset:

- Settle Spice CIty? The workboat is already waiting.
- Chop golden walls in Ivory City or chop a 2xgold settler?
- Build lighthouse next in Athens (after Sailing researched)?
- What to build in Athens while waiting for Sailing?
- Build a couple chariots in Timbuktu for worker stealing?
- What to build in London. A worker?
- Research Sailing>Calendar?
- Maybe position our axes at Carthage to allow Hannibal to build the winery. (He definitely has workers in Carthage, because they built a cottage there recently)

LC, there are a number of sea tiles on the SW coast that I think Murky missed to defog with the workboat. Will you check on these with the WB or warrior?

LC, there are a number of sea tiles on the SW coast that I think Murky missed to defog with the workboat. Will you check on these with the WB or warrior?Both wbs are up N. The warrior has been occupied defogging for Athen's protection, because I had to keep the axe up by FP for the barb warrior and H's archer. So, that will remain for Mitiu to do.

Carthage has netted fish.


Netted fish! Wow! We have an unpolluted GS farm! :woohoo:
Carthage with a lighthouse working fish+clams+farmed FP can run 4.67 scientists at size 8 or even 5.5 scientists (or 5 and work the copper mine) at size 9. How soon can we capture it?

Original plan called for Timbuktu having 450 gpp on T49. With those 5.5 scientists Carthage needs 26 turns to reach 450 gpp. Add 10 turns for coming out of revolt and growing to size 9. Add 10 turns for LC's turnset. 46 turns. Hmm, Mitiu, can you capture Carthage in 3 turns?:please:

I guess not. But Carthage can definitely solve our problems with beaker shortage, and maybe provide a backup 4th GP.

Netted fish! Wow! We have an unpolluted GS farm! :woohoo:
Carthage with a lighthouse working fish+clams+farmed FP can run 4.67 scientists at size 8 or even 5.5 scientists (or 5 and work the copper mine) at size 9. How soon can we capture it?

Original plan called for Timbuktu having 450 gpp on T49. With those 5.5 scientists Carthage needs 26 turns to reach 450 gpp. Add 10 turns for coming out of revolt and growing to size 9. Add 10 turns for LC's turnset. 46 turns. Hmm, Mitiu, can you capture Carthage in 3 turns?:please:

I guess not. But Carthage can definitely solve our problems with beaker shortage, and maybe provide a backup 4th GP.If Mitiu makes a bunch of chariots, they can be there in time for your turnset. Then we can not only use Carthage for the beakers, but also to chop a quick workboat for Athens.

If Mitiu makes a bunch of chariots, they can be there in time for your turnset. Then we can not only use Carthage for the beakers, but also to chop a quick workboat for Athens.

7-8 chariots built in London+Ivory city in the next turnset shouldn't be a problem. How many axes can we spare? 4? Hmm, worth considering. Even more so if we capture a worker or two in the process.

On the other hand London and Ivory city could instead build a settler each in the next turnset.

7-8 chariots built in London+Ivory city in the next turnset shouldn't be a problem. How many axes can we spare? 4? Hmm, worth considering. Even more so if we capture a worker or two in the process.

On the other hand London and Ivory city could instead build a settler each in the next turnset.I think London should be dedicated to a settler, but Ivory CIty needs to grow asap, so I was thinking maybe putting the chops into a settler, while buiding chariots. Capturing Carthage is about as good as chopping walls to give Calendar a kick in teh butt.

Capturing Carthage alone will not help much.
We will have to kill off Hannibal in order to have more than 6 pop working. And it comes with probably around 8-9 gpt more maintenance.

Capturing Carthage alone will not help much.
We will have to kill off Hannibal in order to have more than 6 pop working. And it comes with probably around 8-9 gpt more maintenance.Hmm...that may be problematic. Care to offer your opinion on the matter (or the turnset for that matter)? :) Maybe we should settle Rice SE for the extra coins that would cover the losses from Carthage, or?

Outlook: Granaries in Timbuktu and FP City will be done in 2 turns. The chops for Athens will be done in 3 turns (turns out the forest S of the gold still had 2 turns of chopping :sad:, had I known, it would ahve been perfect--pop7 and all chops finished on the same turn.) London settler done next turn. Horses pastured next turn.

Decisions to make for Mitiu's turnset:

- Settle Spice CIty? The workboat is already waiting.
- Chop golden walls in Ivory City or chop a 2xgold settler?
- Build lighthouse next in Athens (after Sailing researched)?
- What to build in Athens while waiting for Sailing?
- Build a couple chariots in Timbuktu for worker stealing?
- What to build in London. A worker?
- Research Sailing>Calendar?
- Maybe position our axes at Carthage to allow Hannibal to build the winery. (He definitely has workers in Carthage, because they built a cottage there recently)

Have just looked at the save. Solid play, LC! :goodjob:

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

As much as I would like to have a go at Carthage, now is our final chance to settle those cities that need some time to develop before becoming productive. I rank Spice city, 2xGold city and Rice SE among these. We have one settler now, and we could have 0, 1, or 2 more after the next turnset.

Spice city
Requires 14-15 worker turns plus travel for chopping a granary, and we have a workboat for free. We need that granary as soon as possible. This city adds a few hundred beakers and several hundred hammers from whipping, about 3 times the cost of the settler. If we delay it a turnset it may still grow to size 8-9 but there won't be time to run any scientists.

Rice SE
Requires 15 worker turns for mining the gold and farming the rice. We can borrow the cow for quicker growth but that steals from London. Adds around 25 turns of working the gold and also some production. If we delay it a turnset the returns on the initial investment will not be very impressive.

2xGold
Requires around 25 worker turns for pasturing the cow and mining both gold hills, but we have a free workboat to net the fish. Three forests to chop. The best long-term production but it might take some time before it is up and running.

Stone city
For settling later, once we have construction. 2N of stone has 11 forests in fat cross. This city would only be useful for chopping things and only makes sense if we have at least two workers dedicated to it.

Workers
2 workers at Athens chopping the Pyramids (4-5 more turns), then chopping 3 more forests for Library and Lighthouse (another 10 turns). 1 worker at FP city chopping the granary (1 t), then farming a FP (10t), then farming Wheat (8t). These workers have their duties for 15-20 turns before they can contribute "elsewhere". Around that time we should have calendar so they will be needed at Timbuktu.
2 workers at Ivory city pasturing horse (1t), then free to do whatever we want. These two are the ones that we need to think carefully about. Here are the alternatives:
1. Chop a settler in Ivory city (7t)
2. Improve at the city settled by the London settler (see above)
3. Cash-chop walls in Ivory city (7t)
4. Chop 3 forest for units in Ivory city for a rush on Carthage (12t)

Carthage
If we want to rush Carthage we would probably have to build units in both London and Ivory city for the whole next turnset. In that case it doesn't make sense to build any more settlers except for Stone city later on. As klarius points out we would also have to get rid of Utica before getting full value from Carthage. But even before that Carthage would pay for itself running 2 scientists and still have decent production. It has great strategic value as an eastern port. We also get a bunch of workers for chopping Stone city units etc.

Research
Sailing->Calendar, no question about it. Though we may need to squeeze in Hunting later when Timbuktu is about to reach size 9.

Athens
Finish the pyramids and switch to 4 scientists. Pre-chop for a lighthouse while building on the library. As soon as Sailing is in we chop the lighthouse, then chop towards completing the library. Those buildings are more important for our research and GS generation than anything else (library will contribute 300+ beakers, at least as much as any of the cities that we can settle)

Ok, having said all that I firmly believe that the only two cities worth settling now are Spice city and 2xGold city. Why? Because both of these can get an instant +5 food tile using our workboats. Rice SE simply can't compete unless it steals the cows from London.

The big question is then if we should be peaceful and settle both, or if we should be warlike and settle only one and instead rush Hannibal. Opinions?

Couple of notes for Mitiu

I think I forgot to mark on the save:
- The FP City flood plain N of FP City has only 2 more turns of farming.
- Athens only requires 3 more turns to finish the Pyramids chopping. THe worker on the road chops the two roaded forests. The worker not on the road chops that forest, then goes to the other roadless forest.

I think we should settle 2*gold now. There we have a chance to get a couple of workers from FP and Athens as available pretty quickly.

I would build a barracks now first in ivory (change away from warrior to use the overflow). I don't think we should do another mad rush with unpromoted troops. Also settle the GG we should get after the next combat.
Then build troops only here (maybe with a chop or 2). Will take some time to get enough for Carthage, but I don't think we can afford to have other cities help a lot.

London should grow one after the settler then another settler (or another worker first as we still will not have free workers for spice ?).

We should do hunting after sailing. We probably need it anyway before calendar finishes and by that can also get quick good tiles for ivory city (better than mining grass hills).

Believe it or not, but now we have only 39 turns until we pop the third GS in Timbuktu. Maybe we can lightbuld Astro by then, maybe we require some turns of additional research.

I have been comparing Spice city and Gold city. As far as I can tell these are the accumulated outputs around T40.

Spice city settled T5:
264 beakers and 315 hammers from whipping down to pop1
or
No beakers and 484 hammers from whipping down to pop1

Spice city settled T15:
No beakers and 305 hammers from whipping down to pop1


Spice city requires two workers for 10 turns, and later one-two workers for building a banana plantation.


2xGold city settled T5:
224 commerce and 313 hammers (includes a 2poprush down to pop 4), can then still work fish+cow+2 gold mines

2xGold city settled T15:
84 commerce and 167 hammers (includes a 2poprush down to pop 4), can then still work fish+cow+2 gold mines


Gold city requires 2 workers for 20 turns.


Summing it up, Spice before Gold gives us 348 beakers and 482 hammers (or 84 beakers and 651 hammers), while Gold before Spice gives us 224 beakers and 594 hammers. Roughly equal.

But then there is the question of workers. Spice before Gold lets us use the same pair of workers for both cities, while Gold before Spice requires another pair of workers to start chopping the granary in Spice city around T15. For that reason, Spice city first and Gold city second seems better to me.

Spice city immediately means we have to move the 2 workers from ivory all the way back to the spice location w/o working.
2*gold is much nearer for the workers getting available after the Athens chops.
Spice city later could be handled by 1 worker pre-chopping.

BTW, we should probably revise our research plans.
It's absolutely impossible, IMO, that we have enough research in by the time we have 3 Gx. With our current cities and settling plans we are around science slider 0% and I don't see where to take the worker turns for several golden walls (one will not really cut it).

Spice city immediately means we have to move the 2 workers from ivory all the way back to the spice location w/o working.
2*gold is much nearer for the workers getting available after the Athens chops.
Spice city later could be handled by 1 worker pre-chopping.

The Athens workers are busy until around T15. If you want to use these for Gold city then there is no point settling Gold city on T5.

Which worker did you have in mind for pre-chopping for Spice city if not one or both of the Ivory city workers? The FP city worker could start chopping there around T20, the Athens workers even later. I guess the only thing that would work is if we build a worker immediately in London, but then Ivory city needs to produce the settler for it using chops, which means that the two workers need to stay there and not go to Gold city.

Aaaargh! Is this impossible to manage?

No, lets see. Spice city settled first, both Ivory city workers go there to chop a granary. Done on T15. London builds a settler, Gold city settled T15. At the same time all our five workers have finished their chores around Spice city, FP city, and Athens. We can either turbo-improve Gold city or do a mega-cash-chop or even a combination. And all the time Ivory city is building units for taking Carthage.

The problem with Spice City it that grows too slowly now, because it's dependent on a galley and/or Calendar. Try your calcs on this, Gnejs:

1. Settle 2xGold (T4). Work an artist for 4 turns (T8).
2. One Ivory City worker leaves immediately to chop hill forest NE of 2xGold (done T9).
3. FP City worker finishes chop (T1), finishes fp farm (T3), farms wheat for 1 turn (T4), moves to forest S of 2xGold and chops (done T10).
4. 2xGold granary done (T11). 15:food: in granary.

Meanwhile Ivory City only loses 1:food:/turn until some worker finishes the wheat farm, because it can work flood plains.

BTW, we should probably revise our research plans.
It's absolutely impossible, IMO, that we have enough research in by the time we have 3 Gx. With our current cities and settling plans we are around science slider 0% and I don't see where to take the worker turns for several golden walls (one will not really cut it).

Beaker count, revisited once more

Rest of Sailing 120(?)
Calendar 625
Metal Casting 803
IW 357
Construction 625
Compass 715
Machinery 1253
Optics 1072 (GS)
Astronomy (2 GS)

4498 beakers + 3 GS

900 beakers from Timbuktu
1500 beakers from Athens
400 beakers from FP city
800 beakers from commerce (40 turns * 20 commerce/turn)
350 beakers from Spice+Gold
= 3950 beakers, missing 550 beakers

But we will be researching at about 140 beakers per turn on T39, so we get the missing beakers in just 4 turns of research. No cash-chops needed.



The weak point in my reasoning is the 800 beakers from commerce if, as you say, our slider will be at 0% after settling Spice and Gold. Worst case, we need another 6 turns to make up for that. If we capture Carthage I am sure that we can make up for at least some of those turns using the plunder and a couple of scientists.

The problem with Spice City it that grows too slowly now, because it's dependent on a galley and/or Calendar. Try your calcs on this, Gnejs:

1. Settle 2xGold (T4). Work an artist for 4 turns (T8).
2. One Ivory City worker leaves immediately to chop hill forest NE of 2xGold (done T9).
3. FP City worker finishes chop (T1), finishes fp farm (T3), farms wheat for 1 turn (T4), moves to forest S of 2xGold and chops (done T10).
4. 2xGold granary done (T11). 15:food: in granary.

Meanwhile Ivory City only loses 1:food:/turn until some worker finishes the wheat farm, because it can work flood plains.

My calcs for Spice city are with no galley and a banana plantation finished on T28. I would say that is pretty conservative...

Your idea on using the FP city worker makes sense. But I would then use it to pre-chop S of 2xGold (T9), chop 2S (T15), chop 1S (T16), pasture cow (T23). Gold city settled on T15 gets up and running faster than in my calcs.

Gnejs, if you don't have the granary done in Spice City till T17, then you've wasted 16:food:, right? This solution only wastes 0:food: total in both cities together:

T4 2xGold; granary done T11; 15:food: in granary
T14 Spice City; granary done T20; 15:food: in granary



EDITED to change the granary completino from T21 to T20 and waste to ZERO1

Gnejs, if you don't have the granary done in Spice City till T17, then you've wasted 16:food:, right? This solution only wastes 4:food: total in both cities together:

T4 2xGold; granary done T11; 15:food: in granary (no waste)
T14 Spice City; granary done T21; 20:food: in granary (wastes 4:food:)

No, the way I planned it there would be little or no waste. But I have since realized that I forgot about the 4 artist turns... :cry:

Not sure if I have the patience to revisit the calculations once more. :(

No, the way I planned it there would be little or no waste. But I have since realized that I forgot about the 4 artist turns... :cry:

Not sure if I have the patience to revisit the calculations once more. :(To me, if you grow to pop2 before finishing the granary, you've already wasted 16:food:. In my scenario, I'm finishing both granaries before pop2.

Special note on 2xGOld!!! After settling, 2xGold will not need any protection. It will completely finish defogging the whole area below London!!! (It's a bit tricky getting the settler there in the first place. :crazyeye: But doable.)

Who chops the two forests for Spice city in your scenario?

Who chops the two forests for Spice city in your scenario?You had to ask... ;) 1 worker comes from Ivory City, 1 from London.

London: settler(T1)>settler(T11)>worker(T17)
Ivory City: worker(1t - partiall)>barracks(2t)>worker(T6) (Don't tell klarius ;))

EDIT: Okay, now I realized that the granary can also be done on T20, without losing a turn on the 2xGold granary, so there would be 0:food:, count 'em, ZERO :food: lost. Some very juicy MM. Up to it, Mitiu?

You had to ask... ;) (Don't tell klarius)

London: settler1(T1)>settler2(T11)>worker2(T17)
Ivory City: worker1(1t)>barracks(2t)>worker1(T6)

Worker1 moves to Spice City NE E forest (T10)>pre-chops 2 turns(T12)>moves and chops spice forest (T19)

Worker2 move to SPice CIty NE E forest and chops (T20)

Granary done (T21)

EDIT: Okay, now I realized that the granary can also be done on T20, without losing a turn on the 2xGold granary, so there would be 0:food:, count 'em, ZERO :food: lost. Some very juicy MM. Up to it, Mitiu?

LOL! So you are building two more workers, while the rest of us are trying to make it work with the ones we have now. And all this to save a little food in Spice city?