Are you drunk? We haven't even researched hunting yet...

I knew something was wrong! Not enough beer :lol:

Anyway, you get may point, and if you dont, I'll join klarius and give you a proper spanking afterwards :D

Have you started playing yet? Good luck :hatsoff:

Have you started playing yet? Good luck :hatsoff:

One hour from now, unless LC comes up with a totally different plan... :)

One hour from now, unless LC comes up with a totally different plan... :)In fact we should build Rice SE and wait till Erkon's turnset to capture Carthage. Furthermore, we should build libraries in both FP City and Timbuktu. Actually, my new plan changes everything except for one single worker movement on your last turn. Of course, that one movement means that my plan is not totally different, so never mind. Just go with your plan... ;)

COme to think of it, why not build a library in TImbuktu? We could chop it. We've got some extra forests there, right? :lol:

In fact we should build Rice SE and wait till Erkon's turnset to capture Carthage. Furthermore, we should build libraries in both FP City and Timbuktu. Actually, my new plan changes everything except for one single worker movement on your last turn. Of course, that one movement means that my plan is not totally different, so never mind. Just go with your plan... ;)

COme to think of it, why not build a library in TImbuktu? We could chop it. We've got some extra forests there, right? :lol:

Lol!

Starting up now.

Turn 0, 535 BC:
Axe wins against barb warrior on mine N Timbuktu. 3.3/5 strength, 1 XP
MM Timbuktu for Chariot in 2t
Switch to Barracks in FP city
All the worker actions and unit moves according to plan
Slider to 0%, 4 gold, +4 gold/t

IBT: Enemies move as expected. Our warrior S Athens successfully defends against barb warrior. 6t to heal.

Turn 1, 520 BC:
Sailing in, Calendar in 22 turns
Lighthouse chopped in Athens, 13 hammers overflow
Chariot completed in London, defeats barb warrior, 1.2/4 strength :(
London starts on next chariot (2t)
Axe completed in Ivory city, switch to chariot (1t)
Timbuktu grows to pop6, MM for chariot in 1t, growth in 4t
0% research, 8 gold +3 gold/t

IBT: Barb Archer attacks our chariot SW Timbuktu. Chariot wins. :)

Turn 2, 505 BC:
Border pop at 2xGold
Chariot completed in Ivory city, start on chariot (5t)
Axe wins against Hannibals archer
Axe wins against Hannibals warrior
Chariot wins against barb warrior
No enemy units in sight anywhere! :)
Jeanne D'Arc born in Athens. :) I am going to make a medic III chariot out of her. We already have 6 units at less than 50 HP...
0% research, 11 gold +5 gold/t, Calendar in 24 turns (artist in 2xGold was bringing in 4 beakers)

IBT: Three new barbs spawn, warrior next to our worker SW of Athens, warrior next to horses at Ivory city, and archer N of Timbuktu.

Turn 3, 490 BC:
Athens grows, assigns fifth scientist. Worker temporarily retreats while axe comes running to take care of barb
Confucianism spreads in London! :)
London completes chariot, starts on Axe.
Carthage at size 10. Hereditary rule and lots of units?
0% research, 16 gold +1 gold/t, Calendar in 18 turns

IBT:

Turn 4, 475 BC:
Barb warrior killed on sheep, 2nd bar warrior spawns sse of Athens
0% research, 17 gold +1 gold/t, Calendar in 17 turns

IBT:
Unpromoted archer walks out from Carthage
Temple of Artemis BIDL (not in Carthage, not in GW/SH city)

Turn 5, 460 BC:
Pop growth in Ivory city, FP city, Timbuktu
Both chops for 2xGold granary finished
0% research, 18 gold +3 gold/t, Calendar in 16 turns

IBT:
Carthage poprushes for 3!
Our warrior on the ice S of Athens defends successfully against another barb warrior

Turn 6, 445 BC:
2xGold granary finished, start on trireme
0% research, 21 gold +2 gold/t, Calendar in 15 turns
Chariot has a look in Carthage...

168558
Three archers and three workers! But what did he poprush? A settler?

We can attack with 6 axes and 2 chariots in 2 turns. Or should we wait?

I haven't been keeping up but it sounds like you guys have a good plan. Good luck.

London has an axe with 11:hammers:. Will we forget it?

Nothing pillaged in Timbuktu??? :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

168558
Three archers and three workers! But what did he poprush? A settler?

We can attack with 6 axes and 2 chariots in 2 turns. Or should we wait?


Wait for what? Godot?

Save uploaded. Have a look.

Attaaaack!!!!
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:

Wait for what? Godot?

Hannibal just poprushed something big and the overflow might be enough to finish another archer, if we provoke him.

Then wait 1 turn I guess. That also moves his archer 1 tile further from Carthage, hopefully. But I think you still win against 4 won't you? They all unpromoted.

Btw, it's safe to run scientists in TImbuktu now.

I think he just poprushed a library. At least it looks like there is a library there now, and I his culture graph has been a straight line until now.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.I think we could put the damn thing to use...oh well...

Put him out of our misery.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.

Not in Carthage then? Is there any point in not crossing the 2-tile border this turn?

Lets not rush anything here.

We have:
2 4XP axes (C1+cover)
2 2XP axes (C1)
2 green axes
1 C1 chariot (our Jeanne D'Arc)
1 green chariot
1 2.2/4 strength chariot, can be promoted to combat I, needs to move so it can be attacked by Hannibals loose archer

Against 3 green archers this is a sure win. Against 4, hmmm. Should work, right?

He can build everything if he built a library. If we enter this turn it's for sure an archer.
He will not pop-rush again soon, so if he gets the overflow on something else, he shouldn't complete an archer.

Edit:
To clarify:
Library has lower priority than needed settlers (and needed military).
The only reason to not build a settler, if needed, is because there is already one available or in production in another city.
If was in the state to build a library he could as well now start a wonder.

He can build everything if he built a library. If we enter this turn it's for sure an archer.
He will not pop-rush again soon, so if he gets the overflow on something else, he shouldn't complete an archer.

Then I guess it makes sense to wait one turn? If he anyway won't poprush it can't cost us anything, and we might get lucky if he puts the overflow into something else, or sends out one of the archers.

Decision: I will wait one turn before proceeding.

Continuing with the game now...

So wait 1 turn and go for it.

Turn 6, 445 BC, continued:
Barb city spotted up north by our workboat. About 8 tiles N of London, but not in any useful location as it is landlocked.

IBT:
At Carthage...
An archer leaves! It is now defended by only two archers!!! :)

Turn 7, 430 BC:
Moving in on Carthage.
Chops for Athens library completed.
Wheat farm completed (and yes, LC, I switched to work the wheat :))

IBT:
Carthage poprushes for 2 pop! :eek:

Turn 8, 415 BC:
Athens at 149/150 gpp.
Units in place next to Carthage, still 2 defenders.
Llibrary completed in Athens, switch to galley.
0% research, 22 gold, -1 gold/t, Calendar in 11t

IBT: A third archer appears in Carthage. The one that just left moves back, but is one turn late.

Turn 9, 400 BC:
Athens give birth to a....
Great Scientist!:)
Attack on Carthage begins....
Lose first axe
Win second axe :)
Lose third axe
Lose fourth axe
and...


Carthage is captured! We get 152 gold, a granary, a lighthouse, and three workers!


:woohoo: [party] :band: :banana: :viking:

Lost another chariot against the archer next to Carthage.
Research up to 40%, 173 gold, -27 gold/t, Calendar in 7t timed with the arrival of the first Athens worker on the banana at Timbuktu.


This seems like a good time to stop as we have lots to discuss. Save uploaded.

Good. Help keep those buggers off our backs.

Wheat farm completed (and yes, LC, I switched to work the wheat :))
Well, I wanted to make sure you had at least 1 little success this turnset... :goodjob:

Hooray!!! :egypt: :clap: :yumyum: :aargh: [pimp] :jesus: :rockon: :dance: :rotfl: :bday: :band: [party] :beer: :sheep: :bounce: :thanx: :agree: :stupid: [offtopic] :joke:

Nice! :goodjob:

In Athens we can work 3 scientists, gold and 2nd clams. Grow in 4 turns and then work 6 scientists. Timbuktu can start working at keast 1 scientist.

Gnejs, great action!

And since we all had very low expectations, it's a great achievement! :goodjob:

I just luuuv the score graph. :D

How many defenders did Hannibal have? It was three, yes? Report is a bit confusing on that point :mischief:

Gnejs, great action!

And since we all had very low expectations, it's a great achievement! :goodjob:

I just luuuv the score graph. :D

How many defenders did Hannibal have? It was three, yes? Report is a bit confusing on that point :mischief:

Yes, three defenders, plus a fourth archer on the FP cottage next to the city.

klarius, I guess you knowledge of how the AI works has its limits, despite many indications of the opposite. :eek: Hannibal did poprush once more. :)

Excellent turnset !! :goodjob:

I just wait to arrive home and to take a look onto save ... ;)


Barb city spotted up north by our workboat. About 8 tiles N of London, but not in any useful location as it is landlocked

No luxury or something connected ? Anyway - a good news ... we found a new unexpected source to fill our empty budget ... :)

What an exciting turnset, Gnejs! Well done!

How many units left for Utica? Are we thin in defenses against barbs in other cities? Are we paying for our units upkeep? What's the next city to pop a GS? Can we time it so that 2 GS are born in 2 consecutive turns? Oh, man, not being able to open the save is a pain!

What an exciting turnset, Gnejs! Well done!

How many units left for Utica? Are we thin in defenses against barbs in other cities? Are we paying for our units upkeep? What's the next city to pop a GS? Can we time it so that 2 GS are born in 2 consecutive turns? Oh, man, not being able to open the save is a pain!

We have 5 axes and 5 chariots within 5-6 turns from Utica, but we need to leave at least one as garrison in Carthage. And some of them need to heal. But nurse Jeanne is working on that.

Axe+warrior pair at each of London, Athens, Timbuktu. Only warriors at FP city and Ivory city. Some of those chariots might need to be diverted to cover.

-5 gold at 0% research, but this will become positive again within a few turns, because:
2xGold provides +7 commerce from T4
London can work a scientist/merchant from T5
FP city can work 3 scientists/merchants from T2
Carthage comes out of revolt on T5 and can work 2 specialists, 3 after border expansion. It will also bring in 9 raw commerce from working clams, village and lake.

Athens pops another GS in 17 turns at the current rate, so probably on T15 or T16 as we will be able to run an additional scientist soon. Timbuktu gp generation is on hold and should be micromanaged to have 299 gpp and +20 gpp/turn on the turn that Athens pops the next scientist. We then pop the third GS (hopefully not a prophet) on T23 or T24.


Why don't you get Warlords then? The Warlords GOTMs are anyway much more fun than the current BOTMs... ;)

In Athens we can work 3 scientists, gold and 2nd clams. Grow in 4 turns and then work 6 scientists. Timbuktu can start working at keast 1 scientist.

I agree, but it is even better to work 4 scientists instead of the gold. We get more gpp and might pop the second GS sooner that way.

Be careful with the scientists in Timbuktu. We are several turns early compared to schedule and should by all means avoid having more than 50 scientist-turns on T16. The safest is probably to grow to pop 9 with 56/57 food in the store, and then assign scientists and work mines (or even citizens) to reach the 297 gpp on T16 target with as much food left as possible. But we must have enough food to let us work 6 scientists at a food deficit from T17 to T25 - avoid growing to pop10 as this empties half the food store.

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!
3. With a 4th unit there would be no possible barb spawning in the FP City heartland.
4. Back-up plans for researching to Astro if we pop GS>GE>GP or GS>GS>GP. We're still on schedule to finish Astro during Murky's turn, aren't we Gnejs?

Thanks for the info!


Athens pops another GS in 17 turns at the current rate, so probably on T15 or T16 as we will be able to run an additional scientist soon. Timbuktu gp generation is on hold and should be micromanaged to have 299 gpp and +20 gpp/turn on the turn that Athens pops the next scientist. We then pop the third GS (hopefully not a prophet) on T23 or T24.

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.



Why don't you get Warlords then? The Warlords GOTMs are anyway much more fun than the current BOTMs... ;)
Are they? And why?

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!


Have we explored the islands yet?

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.Are you the re-incarnation of Moonsinger?!? This is really clever. Reminds me of one of her CivIII write-ups in which she says don't worry about war weariness (or starvation or whatever it was), at least those citizens will die happy... :lol:

What this might be, though, is an interesting way to maximize our chances of a GS in TImbuktu. (I find it hard to believe that throwing away 30+:food: per turn in Athens is worth the lost hammers in potential poprushing.

4. Back-up plans for researching to Astro if we pop GS>GE>GP or GS>GS>GP. We're still on schedule to finish Astro during Murky's turn, aren't we Gnejs?

Beaker count, revisited once more

Rest of Calendar 359
Metal Casting 803
IW 357
Construction 625
Compass 715
Machinery 1253
Optics 1072 (GS)
Astronomy (2 GS)

4051 beakers + 3 GS

On T23, we have generated a further
600 beakers from scientists in Timbuktu (will be at 36 beakers/t)
975 beakers from scientists in Athens (will be at 45-55 beakers/t)
231 beakers from gold mines at 2xGold (will be at 20 beakers/t)
378 beakers from scientists in FP city (will be at 18 beakers/t)
108 beakers from scientist in London (will be at 6 beakers/t)
150-200(?) beakers from specialists in Carthage (can be at 30? beakers/t)
150 beakers from deficit research

= 2600-2650 beakers, and 155-165 beakers per turn

So we get Astronomy on T32 at the latest unless we pop a GP in Timbuktu. GE in Athens is not a problem since it actually speeds us up with a turn (lightbulb Machinery instead of Optics)


Some options:
We could cash-chop three forests at Carthage for 321 gold, speeds up Astro with 2 turns.
We could cash-chop three forests at Ivory city for 321 gold, speeds up Astro with 2 turns.
We could put Construction at the end of the research queue, speeds up Astro by 4 turns.

Have we explored the islands yet?The workboat is now up in the Arctic and next turn goes left to see if that island connects to the Great Beyond. In 6 turns, we'll produce a workboat in Carthage for the Athens Clams and this can be followed in a turn or two by a trireme that scouts our East coast.

Gnejs, when does Athens pop the 4th GL? We should have our clam nets on T14.

1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!


IMHO it is important to build a WB/Trireme in Carthage in order to explore a little bit the area ... to gather enough informations. ;)

What if we discover an ennemy reachable by galleys only ( not to invade but at least to decide if we need another city on that part of the continent ) ? :rolleyes:

My little concern - our finance are too thin ... it is possible to take in consideration the need to build/chop a courthouse in Athens for example ? :mischief:

Regards

P.S. : What technology will be lightbulbed by the GS from Athens now ? :confused:

Looks like the game will get pretty boring the next few turn-sets :D:goodjob:.

For Athens, I think best is to grow in 2 with only 2 scientists, then work 6.
Same amount of scientists turns after 4 turns but a few more coins.

As production isn't critical currently, we should better work the cottage instead of the mined hill w/o commerce in London.

I think we should still go lightly on burning through our bank roll. Carthage should grow a bit first with max food instead of working specialists, so will be a big drag to the economy when out of resistance.

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.

This is roughly the plan already in Timbuktu (using up the food deficit). But as we are looking at continuing research for up to ten turns after popping the third GS we need to balance GP generation with sustainable research.

Here are some figures for you.

Timbuktu pop8, 37/54 food, can work:
farmed rice 5f, farmed banana 4f, banana 3f, endless number of 2f tiles
banana plantation on unfarmed tile on T11, plantation on farmed tile on T17
115 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Oracle

Athens pop8, 37/54 food can work:
fish 6f, clam 5f, sheep 5f, clam 3f (5f from T16), gold mine (0f), copper (1f), bunch of 2f tiles
16 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Pyramids

Are they? And why?

More challenging difficulties? Just an impression I have, don't know if it is true...

Gnejs, when does Athens pop the 4th GL? We should have our clam nets on T14.

Too late. ;) Around T41 if using 7 scientists, but with a risk of a then useless GE. We will self-research the second half of Astronomy around T37 or so if we continue in research-mode.

Looks like the game will get pretty boring the next few turn-sets :D:goodjob:.

For Athens, I think best is to grow in 2 with only 2 scientists, then work 6.
Same amount of scientists turns after 4 turns but a few more coins.

As production isn't critical currently, we should better work the cottage instead of the mined hill w/o commerce in London.

I think we should still go lightly on burning through our bank roll. Carthage should grow a bit first with max food instead of working specialists, so will be a big drag to the economy when out of resistance.

Good idea on Athens.

No, Carthage contributes positively from turn one. The maintenance is 7.62 gold. Working the clam (2g) + village (4g) + city tile(1g) + lake (2g) + 2 artists (4 beakers each) gives 9 commerce and 8 beakers. A net gain of almost 10...

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!A picture for jesusin!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_SW_coast_defog.JPG

Carthage is must better if we can work the 2 seafood and the village. THen at pop6 it's working 3 scientists, pop7, 4 scientists. Can you try that variation out, Gnejs? Does it take too long to grow the pop?

Carthage is must better if we can work the 2 seafood and the village. THen at pop6 it's working 3 scientists, pop7, 4 scientists. Can you try that variation out, Gnejs? Does it take too long to grow the pop?

This is what I had in mind:

Border pop using 2 artists on T7, go max growth +11 food/t
pop6 on T11
pop7 on T14
pop8 on T16, work 5 scientists = 210 beakers on T23, +30 beakers/t

All the time it is bringing in more commerce than the maintenance cost.


Workers chop a WB on T5, cash-chop three forests around T8-9, prechop another 4 forests until ~T15, do whatever (maybe improve the spice)

I agree with Mitiu. I'd like to see a trireme out of Carthage immediately after the wb. FOr protection of our nets and a bit of exploration. Now that we've finished Sailng, the barbs will research it faster if they haven't already finished it. It would be ridiculous for us to allow those nets to get pillaged.

Gnejs, I have a request. Would you please check your saves from 1750bc, 1780bc. I'd really like to know if we can see Ragnar's borders before his 2nd culutral expansion. It will give us a fairly precise idea of where his capital is, how many tiles away, and possibly whether it's landlocked. If we can go from Spice Peninsula into his capital in 1 move with our galleons (after we capture it), then we save 1 turn movement cost for our units moving inland.

I think defogging the wb's path to Athens is slightly higher priority than capturing Utica, although both are vital asap. We need to know that we're not sending that wb to his doom. The warrior in FP City can defog Zone 2. Another unit Zone 3, and the warrior by the furs Zone 1.

That said, it would be nice to capture Utica before the 1st cultural expansion.

A few other remarks.
I think we shouldn't bother with fogbusting. Just leave the units in our culture to save support and kill what's coming on. Shouldn't be that much anyway as the barb city needs it's garrison.
We should research IW after calendar. Then look if we can easily access iron, otherwise do construction (and hunting :lol:) fast. We really need the ability to build some stronger units fast, so we have already something to fill our first ships. I would also disband our warriors once we have enough other units. I don't see us having the money to upgrade them.

I think we shouldn't bother with fogbusting. Just leave the units in our culture to save support and kill what's coming on.I completely agree as far as fogbusting N and E is concerned, but I think it's foolhardy to not defog the coast between Athens and Carthage. Unless you're planning to devote a galley to the Athens SE clams and a trireme to Carthage. We should also have a trireme protecting the NW Athens seafood, for that matter. And a galley up by 2xGold.

Gnejs, I have a request. Would you please check your saves from 1750bc, 1780bc. I'd really like to know if we can see Ragnar's borders before his 2nd culutral expansion. It will give us a fairly precise idea of where his capital is, how many tiles away, and possibly whether it's landlocked. If we can go from Spice Peninsula into his capital in 1 move with our galleons (after we capture it), then we save 1 turn movement cost for our units moving inland.

I only have saves from 1930 BC and 1660 BC... :(

klarius, I guess you knowledge of how the AI works has its limits, despite many indications of the opposite. :eek: Hannibal did poprush once more. :)
Well, the function do_hurry() is only about 400 lines of code :).
Further investigation :scan: shows that he can pop-rush one pop if there is no net unhappy population (and this was probably so due to HR) and the build is essential (a combat unit while in danger qualifies as essential), even so there is still pop-rush :mad:.
This is, BTW, different from vanilla, where there is never a pop-rush when there is still pop-rush :mad:.

I only have saves from 1930 BC and 1660 BC... :(Oh yeah, I forgot that you have a crash-proof computer... :crazyeye:. I save every turn, for strategic reasons. Neve know when there might be useful info...

EDIT: Saving the file is also a way to not hit <enter> too soon. GIves you a chance to re-think...

This is roughly the plan already in Timbuktu (using up the food deficit). But as we are looking at continuing research for up to ten turns after popping the third GS we need to balance GP generation with sustainable research.

Here are some figures for you.

Timbuktu pop8, 37/54 food, can work:
farmed rice 5f, farmed banana 4f, banana 3f, endless number of 2f tiles
banana plantation on unfarmed tile on T11, plantation on farmed tile on T17
115 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Oracle

Athens pop8, 37/54 food can work:
fish 6f, clam 5f, sheep 5f, clam 3f (5f from T16), gold mine (0f), copper (1f), bunch of 2f tiles
16 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Pyramids



Thank you, I'll have a look. Since out bottleneck is not GPP but research, it makes no sense to starve pop unless we need to know if we have got a GS or a GP soon enough to react.

What do we do if we pop a GP? Farm yet another GS? Research by hand?

Should we use our GS on Optics before knowing if the Timbuctu one is a GS or a GP?

Here's my (flawed?) analysis of where Ragnar's capital might be.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_Ragnar_nexus.JPG


If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)). But we don't know if it's landlocked. If it's not, our galleons will be able to enter his city even without the circumnavigation bonus. So we might want to consider building a city at Spice SE or Spice, roading to the Spice SE tile, and having units prepared to embark from there. That seems like the fastest way to launch our attack. If we have a couple of galleys and the cash to upgrade them or poprush a couple galleons from there, then we can attack almost immediately. Maybe we consider chopping the two forests there into an almost finished galley-turned-galleon?

Edit: Of course, this may not be his capital, but a a second city, but I doubt it, because where would it get the culture from? VIkings have no culture ... :lol: Now if it's Asoka or someone else...

Thank you, I'll have a look. Since out bottleneck is not GPP but research, it makes no sense to starve pop unless we need to know if we have got a GS or a GP soon enough to react.

What do we do if we pop a GP? Farm yet another GS? Research by hand?

Should we use our GS on Optics before knowing if the Timbuctu one is a GS or a GP?

If we pop a GP we can research the missing beakers by hand until T37. Farming another GS is no good because it comes later (T41 earliest) and has a risk of being yet another GE or GP.

No, we save both our great persons from Athens until the third one is popped in Timbuktu. Unless the second one from Athens is a GE, in which case we use it for machinery.

Another small idea:
We could hand-build aqueduct-hanging gardens in London.
Due to confucius this should work in about 20 turns. We get part of the hammers invested back by the additional pop to rush. But the main idea would be that we have some more potential scientists (at slight starvation) in several cities in case we have to self research more than we like :(.

Here's my (flawed?) analysis of where Ragnar's capital might be.

...

If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)). But we don't know if it's landlocked. If it's not, our galleons will be able to enter his city even without the circumnavigation bonus. ...

Are you referting refarting to this post? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348231&postcount=775)

Are you refarting to this post? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348231&postcount=775)Yes, of course.

If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)).

From what I remember, I looked at those tiles by zooming in. I was looking for waves, but didn't see any. But I did see something smooth, which it turned out was the cultural border. I should have zoomed out and not in! :)

Anyway, my point is that I think I did this on the turn the warrior revealed those tiles. That would mean that the cultural borders were there already then. Now, LC, it is for you to figure out exactly which turn this was... :)

Another small idea:
We could hand-build aqueduct-hanging gardens in London.
Due to confucius this should work in about 20 turns. We get part of the hammers invested back by the additional pop to rush. But the main idea would be that we have some more potential scientists (at slight starvation) in several cities in case we have to self research more than we like :(.London also has 4 forests that should contribute 36*2.25=81:hammers: each to the Hanging Gardens, if we can spare the worker.

Anyway, my point is that I think I did this on the turn the warrior revealed those tiles. That would mean that the cultural borders were there already then. Now, LC, it is for you to figure out exactly which turn this was... :)In that case, I believe his capital had not expanded the second time and it's located at #4 and is not land-locked. Now we'll see if I'm wrong, as usual.

Workers chop a WB on T5, cash-chop three forests around T8-9, prechop another 4 forests until ~T15, do whatever (maybe improve the spice)Carthage. I'm thinking we should:
1. Chop wb from the roaded forest (done T6)
2. Chop trireme (done T8 because 1 worker has to help 1 turn on wb chop), overflow into walls if not too much.
3. Triple chop walls
4. Pasture horses and mine copper (before these workers leave forever, we want these tiles as a back-up. Sooner or later they always come in handy)

Golden Walls at Stone City

After our 8 workers do their various assignments, we could assign one to making war access roads around 2xGold,the other 7 could start chopping the Golden Walls of the Seven Winds at Stone CIty for 749:commerce: finishing on T29. If we don't need the money to finish our research we can use it to upgrade galleys to galleons.

On second thought, it probably makes more sense to do walls at Carthage, Ivory CIty and London.

Golden Walls at Stone City

After our 8 workers do their various assignments, we could assign one to making war access roads around 2xGold,the other 7 could start chopping the Golden Walls of the Seven Winds at Stone CIty for 749:commerce: finishing on T29. If we don't need the money to finish our research we can use it to upgrade galleys to galleons.

On second thought, it probably makes more sense to do walls at Carthage, Ivory CIty and London.

By T29 it will be too late, because at 100% research those 750 gold are going to last too long. No, Stone city makes perfect sense if we chop units there. Initial investment: one settler, whipped somewhere (Timbuktu?). Return: 10*44*1.25 = 550 hammers of units.

On the other hand, once we reach the final stages of the game where nothing built on our home continent can reach the front in time, I am all for organizing a gigantic chop fest somewhere. Just to show that it can be done. :)

Galleons poprushed in Athens are 3 turns from the front (that we know of), 2 turns from 2xGOld. Galleys upgraded, are 2 turns from London's or 2xGOld's cultural tiles, 1 turn from either Spice City location. If you poprush galleons in 2xGold and Athens, they're done on T1 and T3, unless you kill an extra citizen to do it. That means you have this schedule:

T0: Astronomy finished, Revolt to slavery
T1: partial galleys switch to galleon builds and are poprushed to completion
T2: 1 galleon each in Athens, 2xGold.
T3: Units #1,2,3 can attack from sea (for the sake of argument).
T4: Units #4,5,6 can attack from sea.
T4: 1 galleon each in Athens, 2xGold.
T6: Units #7,8,9 can attack from sea.
T7: Units # 10,11,12, can attack from sea.

On the other hand, with SPice city and 620:gold: to upgrade 4 galleys, your schedule is:
T0: Astronomy complete.
T0: 4 galleys parked in Spice City Cultural zone upgraded to galleons, loaded with units.
T1: Units #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 can attack from sea.

So, I would advocate having X galleys, 3X units, and 155X:gold: available on the turn we complete Astronomy, preferably at SPice City, or alternatively at 2xGold/London.

Admit it, Gnejs, your wife thinks you're a cute builder. :p

Builder? Where did you get that idea? :p

Back on topic. I would rather have 6 war elephants launched from Gold city and 6 war elephants launched from Carthage. First city captured is whipped for more units as soon as it comes out of revolt, while the two galleons double back for a second load.

Why do you like WEs so much? They're dogmeat versus spearmen. 6 WE's @ 90:hammers: = 540:hammers:. I can have 5 swords and 4 cats for the same price. The swords are done sooner (because we get IW much sooner). I don't need to switch to slavery. Two loads get there from Spice City a lot faster and the cats have a turn to do some damage.

Carthage is another story. Not sure how to crack that nut.

In any case, whatI'm seeing is that with these 8 workers, it's a serious strateigc question right now what we want to do with them. Should the 3 in 2xGOld build connecting roads before going elsewhere?

GOT IT!

We don't know if the AI will have spears, and there wont be many inside the cities. We need a mix of units of course (swords, axes, WE and cats).

And we don't need to launch our first attack from sea. We declare and land. The AI may whip IBT but won't produce the unit. On second turn we attack. No need to hurry. What is important is when the last AI is defeated. Perhaps we want a caravel to scout the seas asap (always avoiding contact with AI). We need to know roughly where the AI's are located.

What is also important is that we land two loads of units at once to ensure military superiority. We need at least two galleons on each coast, but then we will be unit limited i.e. if we build one unit / turn, the four galleons can move three turns = 12 tiles before they need to return and reload.

Perhaps we want a caravel to scout the seas asap (always avoiding contact with AI).

Optics is the next but last tech we research and Astro will be lightbulbed. We will likely discover them on the same turn. Is there any point in building any caravels?

Optics is the next but last tech we research and Astro will be lightbulbed. We will likely discover them on the same turn. Is there any point in building any caravels?

Yes, if the third GP is a GP :D Then we can launch the caravel 7-8 turns ahead, giving us the circumnavigate and the location of the AI. Could be cheaper to upgrade to two caravels and get circum earlier. Better to have 4 galleons sailing 5 tiles, than 5 sailing 4 tiles, yes? Anyway, we'll sort this out when we're getting closer.

What we do need to start planning is how we're going to get all those units before astro is reached. Perhaps we don't need to upgrade many ships? If we whip Athens + 2xGold + Carthage, and upgrade one old ship, we'll have the four we need.

The gold can then be used to fund unit upkeep if we start building units in London right away? Perhaps a stone settler first?

Yes, if the third GP is a GP :D Then we can launch the caravel 7-8 turns ahead, giving us the circumnavigate and the location of the AI.

No, if the third GP is a GP we self research Optics and use the two we have to bulb Astronomy.

What we do need to start planning is how we're going to get all those units before astro is reached. Perhaps we don't need to upgrade many ships? If we whip Athens + 2xGold + Carthage, and upgrade one old ship, we'll have the four we need.

The gold can then be used to fund unit upkeep if we start building units in London right away? Perhaps a stone settler first?

If we burn all ships, literally speaking, and whip all our cities down to pop1, how many hammers will this give us? If it gets us enough units to win the game then we don't need much planning. Just tech to Astro asap.:whipped:

We're something like 42% of the world population. I think it's pretty risky poprushing down to pop1 blind, especially if we can build an army of swords in advance, and that army ought to be plenty effective against archers.

I look at a couple things differently than both of you. First, I don't think 4 galleons is anywhere close to enough, unless all the AIs are really close. We want galleons for chaining our units. So 3 galleons in a chain means we need to produce 3 units every two turns.

I'm also thinking why use caravels for circumnavigation if we get galleons at the same time. Two galleons will circumnavigate 33% faster than 2 caravels and when they get to the farthest point, assuming there is an AI there somewhere, we'll already have the last 1-2 links in the galleon chain in place.

If it turns out all three AIs are really close, then we just use the galleons for transport and circumnavigation is unneeded anyway. That's something we'll find out pretty fast, if it's that way.

One more thing. There's a really good reason to focus our first attack on Ragnar. His first city or two will be pretty close to our capital. Relatively low maintenance.

And one more thing. Having a two-pronged attack, like we had a three-pronged attack in teh last SG, is of questionable success. CFR whipped our a$$e$ with a one-pronged attack.

Timbuktu banana plantations
Making the eastern plantations first gives us a few more bushels, even though they're done a turn later. Unless you want those workers to end up in the east for some reason, its' beter to start there.

EDIT: If Utica's borders expand or if the barbs settle that river, Carthage will be cut off from our resources. Defogging the east coast up to TImbuktu AND connecting it to the river on teh east side will reconnect Carthage. This is relevant to the banana workers because they'll get a free turn to road that tile on the way to the eastern bananas (if we work iprove them first).

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW - to be updated
Raze Utica and defeat Hannibal. Long term focus is to learn Astro asap and ensure we have a suitable amount of units at that time.

CITY BUILDS
London: Barracks (T2), Chariot(T5), worker (T11)
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Barracks (T5), worker (T12)
FP City: Barracks (T15)
2xGold: Galley
Athens: Galley
Carthage: WB, Galley, Walls Not so sure about the walls though :confused:

UNIT MOVES
Maintain barb defense while sending units to Utica. Prepare fog busting along south coast. Carthage galley explores east, then north.

WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Complete gold mine and pasture on T3. Mine second gold. Pasture worker starts roading.
Carthage: Chop 6 forests. First goes into wb, second two goes into trireme with overflow into walls. Final three chops goes into Golden WallsTM

CITY MM
Athens: run 2 scientists and grow in 2 turns. Then run 6 scientists at stagnant. GS expected to pop T16.
Timbuktu: run 3 scientists and grow in 9 turns.
London: Switch from mine to cottage. Grow in 4 turns.
Ivory City: Assign next citizen to grassland/plains forest to maximize food while not sacrificing completion turn of worker.

OTHERS
Research: Calendar (T6-7), Iron Working (T11)
Civic change - none
Religion change - none
Diplomatic actions - yeah right
Cities settled - none

The PPP is based on the following long term strategy:
Keep Timbuktu at size 9 to enable starvation while running scientists.
We don't need construction or hunting. We attack with swords and axes. Cats are for builders.
We don't build any triremes, and we don't any more than these two galleys. These can be upgraded to galleons together with the three rushed galleons, giving us room for 15 units in our initial attack.
We will switch to Slavery & Police state when astro is finished.
We send the two navies and land the units next to large cities, which we keep.
Astro target = ~T29 (35 AD)

London's next build is a good question.

We will have 63 tiles to circumnavigate. Two galleons will do that in 8 turns, minimum. I don't see any point in building triremes or caravels, actually. Caravels are slower than galleons and useless once they've circumnavigated.

Carthage chops a galley after the wb and we protect our eastern nets with the three units defogging the Athens coast and a couple of warriors on those islands.

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left...:(

On units, maybe we should skip Construction altogether and just build swords. As we are charismatic they will be CR3 in no time.

Another suggestion: when Hannibal has been taken care of you should send a chariot up north-east. There might be more land than we have suspected there.

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left...:(

...

I'm a bit ill, and I didn't have the energy today to write the PPP. Hopefully I can do it tomorrow. :(

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left returned :lol:...:(

On units, maybe we should skip Construction altogether and just build swords. As we are charismatic they will be CR3 in no time.

Another suggestion: when Hannibal has been taken care of you should send a chariot up north-east. There might be more land than we have suspected there.I think catapults will be a great help, but we wouldn't have to research construction before astronomy.

Gnejs, how strong are you on sending galleons both directions? I was thinking we should send a galley out of Carthage asap to see if we spot any culture squares out there in the oceanic fog, before committing ourselves.

I'm a bit ill, and I didn't have the energy today to write the PPP. Hopefully I can do it tomorrow. :(

I hope you get better. The team needs its captain to put all the blame on him

I hope you get better. The team needs its captain to put all the blame on him

jesusin, thank you for your concern! You deserve a good spanking in GOTM27!

PPP updated, will update again later.

CITY MM
Athens: run 4 scientists and grow in 4 turns. Then run 6 scientists at stagnant. GS expected to pop T16.
Timbuktu: run 3 scientists and grow in 9 turns.



OTHERS
Research: Calendar (T6), Hunting (T8), Iron Working (T13 - klarius TS)


How many gpp in Timbuktu on T16, and how much food?
Did you see klarius suggestion to grow in 2 turns in Athens?
What are the thoughts behind Hunting?

How many gpp in Timbuktu on T16, and how much food?
Did you see klarius suggestion to grow in 2 turns in Athens?
What are the thoughts behind Hunting?

Timbuktu will pop a GP on T17 if we run 3 scientists. East banana is planted on T11, west banana on T17. Pop9 reached on T9. Pop10 reached on T17. From T17 we can run 7 scientists for -3:food: for 8 turns without loosing pop. GS popped on ~T25.

I wrote the PPP without taking too much influence from the peanut gallery, but klarius is correct, we'll get 8 more :commerce:

We will run into happiness problems with Timbuktu at pop10 (we're at pop8 now). We're not getting spice or dye online in time, but the worker from Ivory City can camp the ivory on ~T17. Also, Ivory City will not reach it's potential until the 3 ivory is camped.

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

Athens
At 40% research slider, the net effect of 2 scientists for 2 turns versus 4 for 4 is that Athens produces +2:science:, +2:commerce:, and -2:food: (not considering any maintenance changes for the +1 pop, if any). Those -2:food: have the following possible consequences:

After we net the clams, if we want to grow to pop10, no consequences. If we want to grow to pop11, the 2-scientist variation is 1 turn later.

Note that we definitely want to work the gold rather than a scientist after we have popped the GL, because it gives us 2x production of our galleys.

Ivory City
We will get the happiness bonus as soon as we research hunting--we settled on ivory.

CITY BUILDS
Ivory City: Barracks (T5), worker (T12)

WORKER ACTIONS
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]2xGold: Complete gold mine and pasture on T3. Mine second gold. Pasture worker goes to camp ivory.
In Ivory City, see if you can maximize growth toward pop5 while getting that worker out just as fast.

WORKER ACTIONS
I keep asking about roads connecting 2xGold to our production centers. The response I keep getting: Deafening silence. Do you all feel we don't need the roads or what? Am I an idiot? What gives?

Timbuktu will pop a GP on T17 if we run 3 scientists. East banana is planted on T11, west banana on T17. Pop9 reached on T9. Pop10 reached on T17. From T17 we can run 7 scientists for -3:food: for 8 turns without loosing pop. GS popped on ~T25.

I wrote the PPP without taking too much influence from the peanut gallery, but klarius is correct, we'll get 8 more :commerce:

We will run into happiness problems with Timbuktu at pop10 (we're at pop8 now). We're not getting spice or dye online in time, but the worker from Ivory City can camp the ivory on ~T17. Also, Ivory City will not reach it's potential until the 3 ivory is camped.

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

Something seems off in your calculations. If Timbuktu is at 297 gpp on turn 16, and you run 7 scientists + oracle thereafter for 7*3+2=23 gpp/t you/klarius will hit 450 gpp already on turn 23. It might be possible to starve Athens a bit and save a turn in both cities...


Edit: I also think it is better not to grow to pop 10. By stopping at 56/57 food at size 9 you can run 6 scientists almost indefinitely, and even seven for ~9 turns. You can also work some mines while halting growth.

LC, thanks for the input, I'll see how it will all fit in my plans.

Regarding roads: are we planning to use 2xGold as a port? It makes sense to send units from Ivory City there, but we can send those units via London as well, no?

I'll see if I can plan a bit of road-working.

WORKER ACTIONS
I keep asking about roads connecting 2xGold to our production centers. The response I keep getting: Deafening silence. Do you all feel we don't need the roads or what? Am I an idiot? What gives?

<Whistle, whistle> ;)

Yeah, we have some roads to build, and they need to be in place so as not to delay the first armada. Is it necessary to build them already now?

I think catapults will be a great help, but we wouldn't have to research construction before astronomy.

Gnejs, how strong are you on sending galleons both directions? I was thinking we should send a galley out of Carthage asap to see if we spot any culture squares out there in the oceanic fog, before committing ourselves.

We definitely want to send the units built in Carthage to the east, but maybe it is enough to send a smaller force first.

<Whistle, whistle> ;)

Yeah, we have some roads to build, and they need to be in place so as not to delay the first armada. Is it necessary to build them already now?Which ones? Do we even need to connect 2xGold to London? WHat do we connect Ivory City to? London? 2xGold via the south route?

Maybe it's enough to connec the 2xGold south route to FP City and Ivroy and connect Ivory to London?

What are you guys thinking? If we can decide on what roads we're going to want, then we can see if it makes sense to build any of those roads, in passing, right now.

The worker at the 2xGold pasture will arrive in Ivory too soon to camp the ivory. Shoudl he build a road or should he just pre-chop?

Or is this all just a basic difference in war strategy between you (Gnejs) and me? I don't see us poprushing our production centers to death. I see us having galleon chains to the war zone and a steady stream of units arriving.

Let's not forget one huge advantage of galleons (as CFR used their galleys): sea vessels aren't slowed down in enemy territory. Land units go painfully slowly, but galleons will just hop from one coastal city to the next. Which brings me to the second view I have of our war plans. I see us having a bunch of cats running ahead of our troops, bashing down walls (which is why I would have preferred to put the GG in Ivory City--so we'd only need four double-promoted cats to zero out the city defenses).

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

I'd prefer that solution, if worker turns are not sorely needed.

Or is this all just a basic difference in war strategy between you (Gnejs) and me? I don't see us poprushing our production centers to death. I see us having galleon chains to the war zone and a steady stream of units arriving.

Let's not forget one huge advantage of galleons (as CFR used their galleys): sea vessels aren't slowed down in enemy territory. Land units go painfully slowly, but galleons will just hop from one coastal city to the next. Which brings me to the second view I have of our war plans. I see us having a bunch of cats running ahead of our troops, bashing down walls (which is why I would have preferred to put the GG in Ivory City--so we'd only need four double-promoted cats to zero out the city defenses).

I see us poprushing our home continent to death. Or almost, it can be nice to keep enough citizens to work all high-food tiles and poprush again 5 turns later. Rinse and repeat until we have racked up 5-6 in whip unhappiness, then just whip them down to pop1. Say that we can whip 40 pop that way, that could be 8 galleons and 24 swords or so, plus the units we manage to build in advance, plus those we can chop using all our workers. We also keep all larger cities that we capture, and poprush these too.

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.

I see us poprushing our home continent to death. Or almost, it can be nice to keep enough citizens to work all high-food tiles and poprush again 5 turns later. Rinse and repeat until we have racked up 5-6 in whip unhappiness, then just whip them down to pop1. Say that we can whip 40 pop that way, that could be 8 galleons and 24 swords or so, plus the units we manage to build in advance, plus those we can chop using all our workers. We also keep all larger cities that we capture, and poprush these too.

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.Talk about numbres not adding up... :crazyeye:. I see:

3 galleons = 360h/45 = pop8
3 swords = 180h/45 = pop4

8 galleons = 8/3 * pop8 = ~pop21
24 swords = 8*3 = 8 * pop4 = pop32

Total needed pop53 + pop7 (can't poprush to pop0) = pop60.

Estimated population in 30 turns = ~pop54

--------------------------

Athens at pop10>pop1 = 3 galleons, 1 sword
Carthage at pop10>pop1 = 3 galleons, 1 sword
2xGold pop6>pop1 = 1 galleon, 1.5 swords

TImbuktu pop10>pop1 = 7 swords
London pop7>pop1 = 4.5 swords
Ivory City pop5>pop1 = 3 swords
FP City pop6>pop1 = 4 swords

7 galleons, 22 swords and every city is at pop1.

So your numbers are close except for leaving population to work food tiles.

Okay, Gnejs, I guess I see what you're saying. I think we want to make as many swords in advance as possible. Then upgrade/poprush an appropriate number of galleons. The rest of our population then remains to produce more of both, either by hand or by poprushing.

The one part of your plan I don't get, though, is how we're going to pay our maintenance costs without any citizens working commerce tiles.

Talk about numbres not adding up... :crazyeye:. I see:


Forgot about Police State? :)

Okay, Gnejs, I guess I see what you're saying. I think we want to make as many swords in advance as possible. Then upgrade/poprush an appropriate number of galleons. The rest of our population then remains to produce more of both, either by hand or by poprushing.

The one part of your plan I don't get, though, is how we're going to pay our maintenance costs without any citizens working commerce tiles.

I don't have an answer to that either. Cash-chop? Loot from taking cities?:dunno:

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.

:eek: I am all ears :eek:
In my own games I always do that form of dragging campaign: wait for healing, bombard defenses to 0, suicide 2-5 cats, mop up with elep/swo/mace, rinse and repeat.

How many swords per archer in 40% defenses city? And if 60%? Won't we bring the odd Axe?

I don't have an answer to that either. Cash-chop? Loot from taking cities?:dunno:

What about whipping only citizens that produce less than 10 points?
1 :food:= 4Points
1 :hammers:= 2Points
1 :commerce:= 1Point


EDIT: "10" is just an example, could be 12, for example. Maybe the value of :hammers: and :food: should decay with time.

Forgot about Police State? :)Sheesh.

2 turns revolt. 7 turns poprushing (4 poprushes). Planning to start our war pre-Modern Age? :crazyeye:

PPP updated again. Please notify if I've missed anything.

We can perhaps wait with the discussion regarding swords/axes/WE/cats until after my TS?

I plan to play until we learn IW to find out the location of any iron. That may take 10 or 11 turns.

If I'm feeling good enough, and you agree to the PPP, I plan to play tomorrow night (in ~24 hours)

:eek: I am all ears :eek:
In my own games I always do that form of dragging campaign: wait for healing, bombard defenses to 0, suicide 2-5 cats, mop up with elep/swo/mace, rinse and repeat.

How many swords per archer in 40% defenses city? And if 60%? Won't we bring the odd Axe?

If you attack a superior enemy, you need to progress slowly and keep your troops alive. Suiciding with more than one cat is a sign that the enemy is tough.

Archer bonus on hill: 50% for city, 25%+25% for hill, 25% garrison + 40% culture = 165 + first strike
Sword = 30% city attack.
Archer strength vs sword = 3 + 135% = 7 + FS vs 6

We will loose one sword for each archer on average.

The military campaign we're facing in this game is very different from "normal" games. The AI will probably have IW, but not necessarily Alphabet i.e. they're pretty primitive. Furthermore, and what is most important, they don't expect to be attacked. It is thus crucial that the galleons unload the units the same turn we declare. Due care must be afforded to ensure that we don't stumble onto an AI mid turn.

There are three different ways I fight wars in Civ. The first is when the AI attacks me. Most times I am prepared. Not the case here. The second way is when I have to attack an AI that is running away in tech. I normally don't have superior numbers, and I can't wait to accumulate enough units that I want. Again, not the case here. The third way is when I can plan (sometimes 100 turns in advance). In these occasions, I have enough units to swarm the AI, blockade reinforcements and these wars typically go very swift. I use multiple fronts to reduce the turns my units are moving within enemy borders. The AI will also have to split up the active defenses, which reduces the risk for counter attacks.

What about whipping only citizens that produce less than 10 points?
1 :food:= 4Points
1 :hammers:= 2Points
1 :commerce:= 1Point


EDIT: "10" is just an example, could be 12, for example. Maybe the value of :hammers: and :food: should decay with time.

We need to agree on a proper whipping limit for each city, and the points above seams reasonable.

Erkon, regarding your turnset.
- I wonder if we really care about the granary in London.
- Will we have enough chariots to protect our cities (Athens, London, TImbuktu, Carthage, Ivory/FPCity) against barb axes? Later swords will gain XP against barb warriors and archers, but not against the axes, obviously.
- The Carthage wall chops would be completed at or just after the end of your turnset. I'm skeptical that we're going to finish our research on time without golden walls in Carthage and even another city or two.
- Are you planning to defog the coast above and beloow Carthage? A barb galley can come out of nowhere pretty fast.

Initial Attack on Ragnar

If we're planning to surprise attack him, I think we should plan to do that with pre-built swords/axes and upgraded galleons. Otherwise we are wasting almost an entire turnset to launch our invasion.

Here is one possibility for our war roads, with possible worker actions. This plan assumes we do not research construction (bridge building). Galleons with 4-5 tile movement are much faster than land travel.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_war_road_plan.JPG

My calculations show that if we maintain productive cities, we can produce at least 3 swords every 2 turns, excluding Carthage. That means a galleon chain would be fully utilized.

Implications for Erkon's turnset and beyond
- possible worker road actions
- we need as many galleys to upgrade as possible (not only for galleon chain, but also to send two out for finding AIs and circumnavigation asap)
- we may want to get London and Ivory City raw production up to 20:hammers: per turn (= 25h/t w/Police State). (I'm guessing Ivory City will have iron on its barren hill.)
- crank out swords asap

AI City Analysis

Currently the world population is 79, ours is 36. Utica is 2, so the remaining 3 AIs have pop41. Three unknown cities total pop22. That leaves pop19. Assuming (arbitrarily) that each AI has a second city of pop4, that leaves pop7 left over. That would be a maximum of 13 cities split up between the AIs. About 4 each. I suppose we'll have to capture a maximum of 7 cities each. At 2 archers (minimum) per city, that's 42 suicided swords.

24 starting swords plus whatever we poprush and chop new in captured capitals may not be enough.

PPP updated

Erkon, regarding your turnset.
- I wonder if we really care about the granary in London.
- Will we have enough chariots to protect our cities (Athens, London, TImbuktu, Carthage, Ivory/FPCity) against barb axes? Later swords will gain XP against barb warriors and archers, but not against the axes, obviously.
- The Carthage wall chops would be completed at or just after the end of your turnset. I'm skeptical that we're going to finish our research on time without golden walls in Carthage and even another city or two.
- Are you planning to defog the coast above and beloow Carthage? A barb galley can come out of nowhere pretty fast.

- Granary replaced with Chariot.
- I will move the London axe to Ivory City. That leaves only FP city vulnerable. If the . .. .. .. . really hits the fan, we have to upgrade the warrior to axe for 110 gold. As soon as Utica is gone, we will have enough units to guard us. I am aware of the weak defenses Gnejs left me with (man, that guy is horny on Capitals...)
- I choice to build the Golden Wall in Carthage can be made late in the TS, since we can cancel the chop and end up with pre-chopped forests.
- Actually, I don't see much reason to fog-bust far away from our nets. As we learned from SGOTM5, the barb ships does not follow the coast in one direction, but move back and forth instead. And they don't spawn that often. And I can't do much about it in my TS. The only loose unit I have is the warrior in Antarctica. And he will move along up NE to check what's there.

Initial Attack on Ragnar

If we're planning to surprise attack him, I think we should plan to do that with pre-built swords/axes and upgraded galleons. Otherwise we are wasting almost an entire turnset to launch our invasion.

Yes, I want us to start building the units right away i.e. in klarius TS when we have connected the iron. We just have to agree on how many galleys will we upgrade. As it is now, the GP's will pop before we have learned the prerequisites. Which means we will have no funds to upgrade with. But this is not a big problem actually. As I see it, the galleon chain will not be used at once. All available ships will be used in the first landings i.e. all ships move to the destination. Then we can establish the chain. The finance of the end game is worrying. We don't have much of a plan. Loot from captured cities and wall chops may not be enough for upgrading galleys.

Here is one possibility for our war roads, with possible worker actions. This plan assumes we do not research construction (bridge building). Galleons with 4-5 tile movement are much faster than land travel.
...
My calculations show that if we maintain productive cities, we can produce at least 3 swords every 2 turns, excluding Carthage. That means a galleon chain would be fully utilized.

Implications for Erkon's turnset and beyond
- possible worker road actions
- we need as many galleys to upgrade as possible (not only for galleon chain, but also to send two out for finding AIs and circumnavigation asap)
- we may want to get London and Ivory City raw production up to 20:hammers: per turn (= 25h/t w/Police State). (I'm guessing Ivory City will have iron on its barren hill.)
- crank out swords asap

Timbuktu has three more turns to 2xGold compared to Ivory City, and Carthage has four more turns. So we could send all units west. OTOH, we could of course build three swords in Carthage and one galleon, and send it east to meet up with the end point of the galleon chain and by doing that extend the galleon chain. We will then get the circumnavigate. Carthage can then repeat that action...

Regarding our military production: we will build more than three swords / turn, which means the bottleneck will be galleons. How can we solve this if we don't have the funds to upgrade galleys?

- Actually, I don't see much reason to fog-bust far away from our nets. As we learned from SGOTM5, the barb ships does not follow the coast in one direction, but move back and forth instead. And they don't spawn that often. And I can't do much about it in my TS. The only loose unit I have is the warrior in Antarctica. And he will move along up NE to check what's there.I'm thinking mostly toward the end of your turnset, after you've captured Utica. Just something to keep in mind. The idea is to prevent the spawning, not have to scramble to defend and hope. Once it has spawned, it's a permanent thorn in our side, unless we build a useless trireme.
We just have to agree on how many galleys will we upgrade. As it is now, the GP's will pop before we have learned the prerequisites. Which means we will have no funds to upgrade with. But this is not a big problem actually. As I see it, the galleon chain will not be used at once. All available ships will be used in the first landings i.e. all ships move to the destination. Then we can establish the chain. The finance of the end game is worrying. We don't have much of a plan. Loot from captured cities and wall chops may not be enough for upgrading galleys.I agree. Sequence:
0. BUild as many swords in advance as possible.
1. Upgrade 3-5 galleons. 1 at Carthage, the rest at London/2xGold.
2. Capture Ragnar's first city AND send galleons in each direction for exploration, circumnavigation, rape, and plunder.
3. Revolt 2 turns and do our poprushing while Ragnar's city comes out of resistance.
4. Continue on.

So:
- by the time we get to the end of klarius' turnset, we'll be able ot determine whether it makes sense to delay Astro for a turn or two while accumulating cash to upgrade galleons, or just burn the 2 turns on a revolt.
- we can also keep making galleons. Our workers will eventually become idle and can chop golden walls in most of our cities, if need be.
- the chain comes into play after Ragnar, if ever. We don't know if the AIs are on seperate land masses. But the galleons will still be useful for speeding up troop movement, no matter what.
Timbuktu OTOH, we could of course build three swords in Carthage and one galleon, and send it east to meet up with the end point of the galleon chain and by doing that extend the galleon chain. We will then get the circumnavigate. Carthage can then repeat that action...This is an excellent idea. This way we might achieve 3 goals in one: exploration, circumnavigation, and transport/capture of a smaller city, all with just one galleon and 3 swords.
Regarding our military production: we will build more than three swords / turn, which means the bottleneck will be galleons. How can we solve this if we don't have the funds to upgrade galleys?Not sure how you calculated that many units per turn, but the more the merrier. I don't expect us to have all that many galleys to upgrade (4-5 max).

In addition to finances, the other problem with Gnejs' Plan, as I see it, is the time cities need to come out of resistance. The sooner we capture Ragnar's first city, the sooner it comes out of resistance (while we THEN do the 2-turn revolt and any poprushing).

...
Not sure how you calculated that many units per turn, but the more the merrier. I don't expect us to have all that many galleys to upgrade (4-5 max).
...

A two-pop whip will generate 2 swords in addition to normal production. We don't have to whip the cities to size 1, but perhaps size 5 (for timbuktu, athens and carthage)?

What I wanted to point out that we have to balance the production of land units with the production of galleons in a similar way of balancing the delay of astro with the upgrading of galleys. Nothing groundbreaking, but something to consider.

Does anyone have any comments regarding my PPP?

Does anyone have any comments regarding my PPP?
Just get it under way. :)
It will not change that much if a bit MM is changed.
And the longer term planning might change quite a bit, if we get problems with either GP or lacking iron.

Just get it under way. :)
It will not change that much if a bit MM is changed.
And the longer term planning might change quite a bit, if we get problems with either GP or lacking iron.

Good. I'll play tonight. Sorry for the delay :blush:

Sorry for the delay :blush:I'm not. Better safe than (later) sorry.

The discussion has given us a fairly clear idea of where we going and idiocies to avoid, so we're well prepared for the unknowns ahead. And speaking of lacking iron, a safer bet would be to build a settler in London next. Then we're covered. The settler could always be saved for Stone City Golden Walls later, or units. Any good reason why we should risk no iron?

Turn set report 400 BC - 250 BC

400 BC - T0
MM according to PPP

IBT: 1 million souls. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

385 BC - T1
London axe is moving towards Ivory City to defend.

IBT: Prophet BIFAL. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

370 BC - T2
Assign 6 scientists in Athens. Calendar in 4 turns, which is one turn early, even at 0% research. Should have run 0% from T0.

IBT: Warrior in Antarctica defeats archer. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

355 BC - T3
Athens celebrates "We love Erkon Day". Saves us a bunch of coins. Moving Athens axe two tiles towards FP City for dual duty.

IBT: Hannibal archers moves towards FP City.

340 BC - T4
Units two tiles from Utica, still only two archers. The citizens in Athens decide to work for free another turn to honor Erkon the Great.

IBT: Barb archer turns up SW of Athens. If I return with the axe, FP city is in danger of the Hannibal archer. OTOH, if Utica falls next turn, that archer will disband. So, what to do?

325 BC - T5
Carthage out of revolt. Provides 10:commerce: net minus added maintenance in other cities. Still, it's earning us gold right away. Barb activity is increasing. Barb warrior next to eastern banana will delay plantation :-(

IBT: Still only 2 archers in Utica :D. Barbs advance towards Timbuktu. We have to sacrifice the northern mine I think.

310 BC - T6
Carthage border expands. We can MM a bit for IW in 4 turns. Battle against Utica commence. Lost 3 axes, RNG-gods must be displeased. Hannibal defeated. Save uploaded.

PS: I razed Utica. We could have kept it for chopping walls (5 forests), but it would have cost us ~5 gpt to keep. Don't know if I did the right thing.

Mid TS Log: Here is your Session Turn Log from 400 BC to 310 BC:

Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.70)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.55)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 31.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.70)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.61)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 67.4%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (61/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (41/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (21/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (1/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.99)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 69.5%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (0.05)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: You have captured Carthage!!!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.00)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Chariot!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.62)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 27 (27/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!

Turn 141, 385 BC: St. Peter (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 142, 370 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.30)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Combat Odds: 38.0%
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 143, 355 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 143, 355 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 144, 340 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ivory City!
Turn 144, 340 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 144, 340 BC: FP City will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 144, 340 BC: Carthage's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 145, 325 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 145, 325 BC: The enemy has been spotted near FP City!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Carthage.
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 145, 325 BC: FP City has grown to size 6
Turn 145, 325 BC: The borders of Carthage have expanded!

Turn 146, 310 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The enemy has been spotted near FP City!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 20.7%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (6.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.98)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 67.8%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (63/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (23/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (3/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.32)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 65.3%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (45/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (26/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Jeanne d'Arc has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have captured Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The Carthaginian Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have destroyed the city of Utica!!!

Please advice how to proceed with a) getting Iron Working in 4 turns instead of 5, and b) citizen allocation for Carthage. I'll play then next 4-5 turns in an hour.

IBT: Timbuktu mine lost. Another warrior approaches from the west.

295 BC - T7
Timbuktu plantation delayed two turns due to barb interference. Research kept at 0%, running 2 scientists in FP City and one in Carthage. London keeps working cottage. I think that the goldmine at 2xGold will do the trick the last turn...

IBT: Barb movements

280 BC - T8
Anti-barb movements. Plantation started.

IBT: The AIs are growing real fast. Pop increase is significant.

265 BC - T9
I'm running 3 extra scientists at Timbuktu at starvation. Next turn we can run none and regain the lost food. End result: IW next turn while still running 0% research.

IBT: Parthenon built

250 BC - T10
I've reset Timbuktu to zero scientist. Next turn we can increase back to 3. Shall we run scientists in Carthage and/or FP-city? BTW, we have access to IRON :banana:. Under 2xGold :lol:

Save uploaded.

Second part of log:Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 20.7%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (6.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.98)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 67.8%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (63/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (23/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (3/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.32)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 65.3%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (45/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (26/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have captured Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The Carthaginian Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have destroyed the city of Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have trained a Galley in Carthage. Work has now begun on a Walls.

Turn 147, 295 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Combat Odds: 98.5%
Turn 147, 295 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 147, 295 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 147, 295 BC: Timbuktu will grow to size 9 on the next turn

Turn 148, 280 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 148, 280 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.53)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.30)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (22/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Timbuktu has grown to size 9
Turn 148, 280 BC: 2XGold City has grown to size 4
Turn 148, 280 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 149, 265 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 149, 265 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 149, 265 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near FP City!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near 2XGold City!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Carthage will grow to size 6 on the next turn

Summary: Build barracks and chariot in London, barracks in Ivory City. WB and Galley in Carthage. Killed a bunch of barbarians. Razed Utica (lost 3 low experience axes, final kill with d'Arc, our heroine :D). Learned Calendar and IW, Iron connected.

PS: klarius, there a barb archer west of London. Don't miss it...

Capital job so far, Captain Erkon! Free at last!!!

One way would be to research at 10% and switch the London cottage to a scientist and the Carthage forest/hill to a scientist.

Please send a chariot ahead of the workboat so it doesn't get ambushed. I would still thoroughly fogbust SW and NE of Carthage, so the galley can freely explore all the way up the coast. I'm assuming (haven't carefully checked) you have enough units to do that and defend. FP City doesn't need a garrison, for example, just a chariot. A chariot could replace the warrior at Athens SE, etc.

LC, thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do to get IW in 4 turns and get a better distribution of our units.

PS: did you notice that I lost one worker turn at 2xGold?

LC, thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do to get IW in 4 turns and get a better distribution of our units.

PS: did you notice that I lost one worker turn at 2xGold?...and don't forget to discover plenty of iron. :cool:

No I hadn't noticed. How did that happen? The gold mine will be done ahead of pop4 anyway, so I don't see any problems.

Summary: Build barracks and chariot in London, barracks in Ivory City. WB and Galley in Carthage. Killed a bunch of barbarians. Razed Utica (lost 3 low experience axes, final kill with d'Arc, our heroine :D). Learned Calendar and IW, Iron connected.


Excellent !! :goodjob:

Very good news - two techs and another ennemy buried in the history book .... :p
I also like the fact that you built few barrack too. ;)

Looks nice.
I had just a short look (not enough for a detailed planning ;)).
We could get the GS 1 turn faster in Athens at the cost of 15 food. That would match nicer with Timbuktu (don't really like the delay there working not so hot tiles). Do we want that?

Science should be metal casting in case we get a GE in Athens. No need to let it sit around for an extended time.

I would rather chop lighthouse in 2xG. That's only 1 food, but makes quite a difference in this city. Question is also what to build there at all. More galleys than the one in production are not beneficial, IMO.
Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?

Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?

Barracks will give or not experience to Naval Units ( not sure about this - but I don't belive so ... ) ?
Personally I'd like to have a barrack built there first. :)

One more observation - I'm absolutely sure that CRC team finnished the game already ( it's already >2 weeks and no new save uploaded ) so probably should take care about their finnish-date ... ;)

Regards

I think we need to make a couple of major decisions before klarius plays.1. Do we poprush to death or poprush some and plan for a continual flow of swords/galleons?
2. How much do we want to facilitate our research/galleon-upgrading with golden walls?It matters now.
- Do we research hunting in 1 turn and the worker(s) in Ivory City immediately begin making ivory camps.
- In London, do we make plantations or hill mines?
- Do we make iron and gold mines in FP City, while those two workers are there?
- Do we mine the plains hill in Athens?
- Do we allocate 5 workers to Ivory City and chop 500+ golden walls pronto?
- Does 2xGold need a lighthouse (or barracks) or not?

Continual flow of swords/galleons with Police State
- London worker makes two hill mines and London produces 25h/t.
- Ivory City with 3 ivory camps produces 21h/t.
- FP City with iron mine gold mine produces 15h/t.
- Athens could produce 20h/t.
- Carthage could produce 20h/t.
- 2xGOld could produce 15 or 17h/t.
These cities would also be generating lots of gold for our economy.

Golden Wall Possibilities
- Ivory City could chop 5 forests for +500g golden walls.
- 1E of Erkon's Wall Chop City could chop as many as 9 forests for golden walls and then work iron and copper to produce units for almost 900g.
- Stone City could chop 10 forests (we have 10 workers) for golden walls and then work horses and stone for units.
- Gold City North could chop 10 forests and at pop3 work 2 gold mines.
* Both Stone and Gold CIty N could be left to the barbs if we wanted to abandon them.
* London, TImbuktu, or Carthage could chop a settler.

A 1000g Golden Walls Bonanza on about T20 would either protect us from not getting 3 GS's or give us cash to upgrade galleons.

Poprush-to-death scenario
If this is what we decide to do, then we want to get to Astro absolutely ASAP because there's not much else to do before then. I think we should build a 3-chop Golden Walls in Carthage, then a 5-chop GOlden Walls in Ivory City, then a 10-chop Golden Walls in Stone City or Gold City N, with a settler chopped in London.

Continual Flow Scenario
This one's a bit more complicated--lots of worker decisions to make. Maybe like this:

FP City/Athens: 1 worker builds iron, gold mines in FP City, then plains/hill mine in Athens.
London: 1 worker builds 2 hill mines.
Carthage: 3 workers chop golden walls, then 2 go to Ivory City, 1 stays to build copper mine, horse pasture.
Ivory City: 3 workers build 3 ivory camps until 2 workers arrive from Carthage, then 5 chop golden walls.
Timbuktu: 2 workers build banana plantations, then chop settler for Erkon's Wall Chop City.
Wall Chop City: All 10 workers go to Wall CHop City to chop the Great Golden Wall.

The worker turns don't add up just right, but something like that.

We could get the GS 1 turn faster in Athens at the cost of 15 food. That would match nicer with Timbuktu (don't really like the delay there working not so hot tiles). Do we want that?

Science should be metal casting in case we get a GE in Athens. No need to let it sit around for an extended time.

I would rather chop lighthouse in 2xG. That's only 1 food, but makes quite a difference in this city. Question is also what to build there at all. More galleys than the one in production are not beneficial, IMO.
Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?I agree on the faster GS in Athens. Clever idea. :goodjob: After that, I think we want to get our Athens pop up so we can also work the gold mine.

Also good idea on MC. I was struggling to find a logic there (compass or MC?)... ;) But do we go ahead and do hunting in 1 turn first?

The only reason I see to build the lighthouse in 2xGold is if we want to get to pop6 in time to poprush for 2pop and still have pop4 to work the good tiles. Barracks there are useless, I think, because galleons are more important from our port cities. I agree on finishing only this galley, but we should definitely do a ~74/75h partial build in both Athens and 2xGOld before getting to Astro.

Well, there is another wall city to consider.
The barb city could chop 6 forests IIRC w/o needing to chop a settler first. We should have a look fast.
It's also a question how much gold we really need. These chops could go into units also.
I think it's too early to commit to one way or another. We need to know what we get in Timbuktu.

There is still the possibility to take the coin flip in Timbuktu first instead of doing it later at slightly better chances. Anybody feeling lucky :crazyeye:.

Edit crosspost:
If we go for quick GS in Athens I would wait with hunting until we know what we need. The camps are nice to have, but not really that much. We could still irrigate the FP at ivory, build roads or pre-chop.
2XG: sure we want a nearly finished galley, but that's too early to start if we just finish the galley now.

My gut feeling is that

a) we shall not pop-rush to death when we get astro, but have a steady stream of units to fill the galleon chain.

b) we shall not chop any more walls (except Carthage) until ALL other worker actions are completed. We're still desperately thin on workers.

Analysis: First we need to find out how long it will take to research MC, Compass and Machinery so that we have a date for astro (GS in Timbuktu)

Estimate scientists run (all numbers on average):
Carthage . 3
FP City. . 3
Athens . . 7 + library
Ivory City 1
London . . 1
Timbuktu . 5
------------
. . . . . 20 + 0.25x7 = 130 beakers / turn


We're then 25 turns from completing MC, Compass and Machinery with scientists only. We can probably sustain 20% research, which will shorten it to 22 turns. But then we perhaps can't/want to run all those scientists.

If we get a prophet, it will take us another 10 turn with scientists (and Athens will pop GS/GE on the same turn :().

Summary: astro will be learned on T25 if we pop a scientist in Timbuktu, else on T35. These figures are similar to what we already have predicted, so no news from me :lol:

If we then take a look at worker actions until T25, we have
Carthage - 16 + 10 with spice plantation
FC City - 47
Athens - 15/16
2xGold - 19
London - 26 + 10 with banana plantation
Timbuktu - 18 + 8 with dye plantation
Ivory City - 29 + 18 with ivory camps

Total worker turn (excluding intercity movements and extra roads) = 170. If we want any of the plantations/camps, together with the planned roads, we will not have any surplus worker turns available for any Golden Walls before T25. And then we have a couple of spare forests we can chop into units/buildings (London, Timbuktu and Carthage).

Conclusion We don't have worker turns available for a Golden Wall before T25. OTOH, we can chop the walls after T25 and use the gold for Galley upgrades and/or future city maintenance.

Final conclusion: It's time to start building the army. Apart from pre-building galleons, every city needs to build swords from now on. If all goes according to plan, we will have captured the first off-shore city 30 turns from now! Let's build LC the 42 swords he want, and start building them now...

klarius, MC is fine in case we get a GE. I just thought that perhaps one AI may be close to researching it to give us a bonus. I'm also fine with speeding up the GS/GE in Athens with 1 turn. I'm not fine with the lighthouse in 2xGold though :mad: (;) )

One more thing:

Kill'em!!! Kill'em all!!!!
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:

...
We could get the GS 1 turn faster in Athens at the cost of 15 food. That would match nicer with Timbuktu (don't really like the delay there working not so hot tiles). Do we want that?
...
I would rather chop lighthouse in 2xG. That's only 1 food, but makes quite a difference in this city. Question is also what to build there at all. More galleys than the one in production are not beneficial, IMO.
Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?

It will take us 4 scientist turns to regain the 15 food lost in Athens. Or we work the mines in Timbuktu to delay the gpp. It's your call. Each turn of delay in Timbuktu increases the risk to pop a GP, but that's probably very marginal. We're actually not depending on the date we pop the 3rd GS, since we have to research another 10 turns, so that from that point of view, it's better to delay the Timbuktu GS. But then again, the earlier we know the gender of the Timbuktu person, the better. Well, you decide and then we blame you if it goes wrong :lol:

Without the lighthouse, 2xGold will grow on T10, and then again on T32. With lighthouse, the second pop increase occurs on T21. Working the mine for 11 turns => 33 hammers. Ok, so most of the chop is returned. Then we can switch to coastal tiles at the end of the game to get coins. Makes sense.

Please remember to cancel that Trireme in 2xGold as well. Then LC-the-scared can complete it in his TS :lol:

We can build unpromoted axes in 2xGold. We will need defenses when we invade, and unpromoted axes will work good enough for that.

Barracks will give or not experience to Naval Units ( not sure about this - but I don't belive so ... ) ?
Personally I'd like to have a barrack built there first. :)

One more observation - I'm absolutely sure that CRC team finnished the game already ( it's already >2 weeks and no new save uploaded ) so probably should take care about their finnish-date ... ;)

Regards

No, barracks only gives XP to land units.

Yes, CRC seams to be finished. I look forward to read how they played the game. It appears that they REXed instead of stealing the AI capitals. But did they research astronomy? :confused: BTW, hi Lexad! :wavey: (man, I feel like a fish in an aquarium with spectators laughing at my stupid ideas all the time :lol: )

Don't forget to update the first page's info too ... ;)

Okay, I put on Gnejs' hat since he went AWOL. For the next 5 turns, I figure we'll run ~13 scientists = 435:science:. After that, we can run roughly 22 scientists for 15 turns = 2160:science:. Total = 2595:science:. MC/Compass/Machinery = 2771 - 2595 = 176:science: still to research = 8:science:/turn from gold, which is about 200g. This means that with the golden walls from Carthage we should be able to finish Astronomy in 20 turns with 3 GS's.

This also means that 5 chopped walls in Ivory City will upgrade our 3 galleons.

20-turn sword production
London: 4 swords
Ivory City: 4 swords
2xGold: 1 sword
Carthage: 2 swords (with 2 final chops)

Just about right for our first, pre-revolt, pre-poprushing invasion force.

Great plays guys. Sorry I haven't been very active. Lots of stuff going on right now.

If we then take a look at worker actions until T25, we have
Carthage - 16 + 10 with spice plantation
FC City - 47
Athens - 15/16
2xGold - 19
London - 26 + 10 with banana plantation
Timbuktu - 18 + 8 with dye plantation
Ivory City - 29 + 18 with ivory campsPrioritized Worker Actions to T20 (exact costs, including movements, starting on T0)
Timbuktu
- Both banana plantations,
- hill mine,
- dyes (partial)
Carthage
- Golden walls,
- 2 sword chops,
- horse pasture,
- copper mine,
- plains/hill mine
FP City
- Fp farmed,
- gold mined,
- iron mined
Ivory City
- 3 ivory camps,
- 5-chop golden walls
2xGold
- roaded to Ivory City.
London
- 2 hills mined

With a few worker turns left over in Ivory City. Possible alternatives: forest chops in Timbuktu, etc.

I'm trying to think like Gnejs and it actually works. Don't know if I've convinced any of you, but I've convinced myself. I propose this plan:

Research: Hunting(T1)>MC>Compass>Machinery

* Chop 3-chop and 5-chop golden walls in Carthage and Ivory City, respectively.
* London, Ivory City produce 4 swords each, Carthage produces 2 swords, 2xGold produces 1.
* Athens and 2xgold pre-build 2 more galleys.
* All research cities shift citizens to full-time sword production on T21.
* Workers focus on building food and production facilities, in addition to the two Golden Walls.

T171 (65AD) -- Astronomy researched (assuming 3 GS's, of course); upgrade 3 galleons
T172 -- 2 loaded galleons set sail for Ragnar, reinforcements waiting on Spice Peninsula. 1 loaded galleon sets sail for America.
T173 (as appropriate) -- revolt to Slavery and Police State.

LC, if you hadn't mention Gnejs' hat, you would have tricked me!

1. Timbuktu - no roads? This will tie up one extra defender/garrison.
2. Carthage - no roads? This will tie up one extra defender/garrison.
3. 2xGold - what about the two mines?
4. Athens - what about the two mines?
5. What about the strategic roads to the coast?

Perhaps I was misleading earlier regarding the galleon from Carthage. We cannot send one load of swords and invade the eastern AI. It's possible with two loads if we know we'll get a third load a couple of turns later.

And even 6 swords risky on the brink of reckless. Assume we meet 3 archers, which is reasonable. Assume we loose three swords, which is a bit pessimistic. Then the final winning sword will be guarding the captured city alone. Madness. Did I suggest this before? :lol:

If we cannot send two galleons from Carthage filled with swords, it's better to wait until we can. Which means that we don't have to upgrade that galley.

Instead I suggest that we upgrade two galleys on the west coast, revolt and then rush the two prebuilt galleons in 2xGold and Athens. We then have 4 galleons on the west coast. The galleys are of course stationed on the westernmost border, and we have 6 swords on the coast ready for the upgrade. The two galleons return for another set of 6 swords that are waiting to become the second wave. Then we can setup a galleon chain, feeding the pipe with 1.5 sword / turn.

I would thus rather see us relax the astro date than launching a week invasion that we cannot sustain. If this means we have to chop swords in Ivory City instead of Golden Walls, then so be it.

Well, I don't see why we should chop swords in Carthage. I would rather chop some in ivory city with barracks though I still don't see where to take the worker turns.

I'm also not sure that we should upgrade several galleys. We waste a lot hammers to generate gold to upgrade galleys. At the same time I don't see how we get the units to fill them timely.

1. Timbuktu - no roads? This will tie up one extra defender/garrison. Later.
2. Carthage - no roads? This will tie up one extra defender/garrison. Later.
3. 2xGold - what about the two mines? They come right after T20.
4. Athens - what about the two mines? Next.
5. What about the strategic roads to the coast? That's called roads from 2xGold to Ivory City.
Perhaps I was misleading earlier regarding the galleon from Carthage. We cannot send one load of swords and invade the eastern AI. It's possible with two loads if we know we'll get a third load a couple of turns later.

And even 6 swords risky on the brink of reckless.Eastern Front Goals: 1) Exploration; 2) Circumnavigation; 3) Perhaps capture a remote city to gain a foothold.

Western Front Goals: 1) Capture and secure the nearest city asap; 2) circumnavigation. To do this: London 4 swords + Ivory 4 swords + 2xGold 1 sword = 9 swords (right?). THen we add Joan of Arc and an axe if you want. That's why I said "reinforcements are on Spice peninsula." That's 11 units in all. That's just to capture and hold 1 city, which will require a lot of turns to come out of resistance. Then 1 of the galleons goes off circumnavigating. THEN we do the revolt and poprushing thing. BY the time we have revolted and poprushed all that crap, we know where the AIs are and what's ahead (at least partly). In fact, we even have more info to decide how much we want to poprush. Maybe all three AIs are on the same continent and we really just poprush to death and win in 25 turns?

Well, I don't see why we should chop swords in Carthage. I would rather chop some in ivory city with barracks though I still don't see where to take the worker turns.

I'm also not sure that we should upgrade several galleys. We waste a lot hammers to generate gold to upgrade galleys. At the same time I don't see how we get the units to fill them timely.I don't know where you can't find the worker turns. I can't keep them busy enough, doing what I listed above. What else are you doing with the workers?

I don't consider using hammers to speed up our invasion several turns a waste. I consider it Gnejsian. To bad he's not here. You guys seem to trust him.

We upgrade 3 galleys. We have 15 units to put in them. More hot on their tails. Now, if we don't want to put three units in the galleon going east, that's another matter, but I think it'd be silly not to send the galleon out with at least 1 axe/sword (axe/spear?) pair to help with circumnavigation, because a 2-pronged circumnavigation should take less than 10 turns and make our conquest that much quicker. We'll still have 53 turns to win. Circumnavigation will be a factor for 43 of those turns.

Am I not being clear or do you guys simply not believe my numbers? (Because I'd be happy to do an Excel chart for you to verify or invalidate.)

OK lets try this planning thingie

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW
Build things. Build improvements. Build urgent roads.
Look after barbs. Especially have a look at the barb city as units get available.

CITY BUILDS
London: Worker , Swords
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Worker, Swords
FP City: Barracks
2xGold: Lighthouse, Galley, Sword
Athens: Galley, Galley (to change into Galleon)
Carthage: Walls, Galley (Galleon)

Athens, Timbuktu, Carthage and FP city prioritize research in the next 10 turns, so will not produce any additional units.

UNIT MOVES
Continue to secure our land. Look for experience for swords. Try to have a look on the barb city. We don't know how long it exists, it may already have a worker, which would be a nice gift.

WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Chop lighthouse. Mine grass hill. Roads where missing.
Carthage: Complete wall chop. Plantation on spices. At least a partial road towards ivory. One worker stays around to do some work and have a timely chop for the first galleon (from galley pre-build).
Timbuktu: Plantations
London: Jungle hill
Ivory: I think it's a pipe dream to think of a five forest golden wall. Rather chop one forest now to get another sword. Other worker goes to FP via road towards 2xGold .

FP: Gold mine, when worker arrives.

CITY MM
Athens: Changed my mind :D, 6 scientists now. Down to 5 when GS isn't slowed anymore and second clam available.
Timbuktu: Scientists for 299 GPP when Athens pops. Then starvation scientists.
London: Nothing.
Ivory City: Grow in 3 after worker, then 2 ivory.
2xgold: Grow for grass hill.
Carthage: Grow like hell - then scientists.

OTHERS
Research: MC - if engineer, speed up, else can slot in hunting (to be on the safe side for happiness - not camps).
Civic change - none
Religion change - none
Diplomatic actions - yeah right
Cities settled - none

1. 2xGold is out the bottom on my list of priorities. No lighthouse, no chop, no mined hill (till later). Later on, after mining the hill, we produce 12hammers =15h w/Police State, IF WE DON'T CHOP THE FOREST. So that forest is worth 2:food: 2:hammers: and costs nothing to improve.

The lighthouse does not pay off. It costs 90 hammers and 6 worker turns. If we want to grow to pop6 in 12 turns (after pop5), just work the forested grass instead of chopping it. It produces 2h/turn less than the hill (which costs another 7 worker turns) for 12 turns = 24h. Way less than the 90h. We can mine that hill later. We can finish those roads later. We need those 2 workers to go to FP City and farm the fp in 5t so we can get another 90:science: now, while we need it. Then one of those worker goes to Ivory CIty, the other mines the gold and the iron (speaking in terms of 20 turns).

2. The dyes plantation in TImbuktu won't be used till T20 at the earliest.
3. The spice plantation in Carthage may never be used.
4. Why do we road from Carthage to Ivory City? If we need that road later, our idle workers can do it in a flash.

5. FACT: The 5-chop Golden Walls in Ivory City are not just NOT a pipe dream, they can be a reality on T16, still meeting our other improvement priorities. Did I say FACT?

Have we explored the islands yet?

Do trirremes upgrade to galleons?
If they don't then we should maybe build galleys instead.

Well, I meant I didn't mind to lose 2 turns when compared to losing 20 turns because of inoportune whipping due to barbs or 20 turns because of inadecuate exploration.

I usually spend 3 hours with my excel in the final turns of a cultural game in order to save a couple of turns, while everybody else is just pressing enter once and again.

I wrote that before reading the actual LC's detailed plan. The current plan looks very good and addresses my concerns about security (yet I'd like to see 1 more Axe) and exploration.

Murky, when you have that elaborate plan in front of you, please add 1 more Axe than planned and 1 more WB than planned.

I don't mind losing 2 turns on Astronomy and going beyond the (arbitrary) threshold of 1AD. I insist on security and exploration, though.jesusin, any opinions on whether we want to start exploring the world on T21 instead of T30? :lol:

2. The dyes plantation in TImbuktu won't be used till T20 at the earliest.
3. The spice plantation in Carthage may never be used.

We need dyes and spice for happiness. Once we are in police state - slavery and can only build swords (do we really think that's good) we will have a hard time to do rushes worth 2 pop, so unhappiness cannot be whipped away effectively.
BTW, I would use the dyes in Timbuktu as soon as the great person pops (T13-T14), if it would be available. If we go off the starvation we have to work a 2-1 food tile and dyes plantation would be as good as a scientist.

Ok, I made up my mind for the slightly longer term. I think we should not stop research after astronomy, but invest the handful of turns for construction.
WEs are a lot better than just unpromoted or CR1 swords (especially going against high bonus archers where CR1+10% isn't much) . And it's a lot more efficient to suicide a couple cats than 3-4 swords (at least for capitals we should expect this kind of ratio). Also having only swords as builds is bad in terms of pop-rushing in police state (very ineffective to restrict good cities to 3 hammers in order to pop-rush 2 pop).

So that means we cannot pop-rush galleons right away. But in 2Xgold (Ok - no chopped lighthouse) and Carthage we can get them even faster by chopping from the galley pre-build than waiting for the anarchy to finish.

We need dyes and spice for happiness. Once we are in police state - slavery and can only build swords (do we really think that's good) we will have a hard time to do rushes worth 2 pop, so unhappiness cannot be whipped away effectively.
BTW, I would use the dyes in Timbuktu as soon as the great person pops (T13-T14), if it would be available. If we go off the starvation we have to work a 2-1 food tile and dyes plantation would be as good as a scientist.I get it. I'm agreeable to all of this. And I don't find it incompatible with the 5-chop Ivory Walls.

In the worker plan I was looking at, this is easy to accommodate, especially if you don't like chopping the two swords in Carthage. Both workers stay in Timbuktu. Third plantation is done on T13. Two workers leave Carthage for Ivory City after Golden Walls. The remaining worker does whatever (pre-chop, spices, copper, horses in whatever order makes most sense. The spice :) isn't needed till Slavery, right?)
Ok, I made up my mind for the slightly longer term. I think we should not stop research after astronomy, but invest the handful of turns for construction.
WEs are a lot better than just unpromoted or CR1 swords (especially going against high bonus archers where CR1+10% isn't much) . And it's a lot more efficient to suicide a couple cats than 3-4 swords (at least for capitals we should expect this kind of ratio). Also having only swords as builds is bad in terms of pop-rushing in police state (very ineffective to restrict good cities to 3 hammers in order to pop-rush 2 pop).

So that means we cannot pop-rush galleons right away. But in 2Xgold (Ok - no chopped lighthouse) and Carthage we can get them even faster by chopping from the galley pre-build than waiting for the anarchy to finish.I'm okay on all this too. All the more reason to get a two-pronged exploration/circumnavgation started asap, so we have a better idea what's in store for us. The 2xGold chop can be timed to coincide with Astronomy once we know the third GL.

We'll have to keep in mind that galleons see one tile farther, if we're concerned about not DoWing Ragnar to soon, as Erkon has mentioned.

Note: I still don't get what the 2 Ivory City workers are doing during your turnset if not making camps. I like camps for giving an extra hammer AND an extra coin. Adds up eventually. Edit: Okay. One is roading to FP via the 2xGold route. I'm not sure these roads are needed for the next 15 turns. The other chops a sword. The faster we make units now, the more we pay for idle unit costs. There are only so many barbs around for XP, no?

LC, I'm confused. Everything you say makes sense. Well at least most of it. But when you claim it Gnejsian it just doesn't compute. He never makes sense! Until afterwards.

Sending a galleon east from Carthage makes sense. It can carry swords in that direction just as well as sending Carthage swords west across our continent (they will arrive at the front at the same time). Upgrade galley + build 3 swords, or chop galleon? Finance will decide. Or klarius :lol:

I also understand and acknowledge the attack on our Mr Purple. And the worker stuff.

Apart from the Golden Walls in Ivory City. Is there any way we can avoid that chop? If we chop the galleon in 2xGold, and upgrade one western galley, and chop the eastern galleon, it's only 155 gold.

klarius, the PPP looks good. I just have to ponder a bit on LC's comments. Perhaps there's room for improvement :eek:

Sure, there is room for improvement. But I'm not a PPP editor :D. I will consider your inputs and play in about 18 hours from now. There might be camps around ivory city or just roads and an irrigated FP. We will see ;).

I got it. :D

Ok, I made up my mind for the slightly longer term. I think we should not stop research after astronomy, but invest the handful of turns for construction.


But this construction-reasearch is planned after researching optics in order to have 1-2 caravels for exploration or before ? :confused:

But this construction-reasearch is planned after researching optics in order to have 1-2 caravels for exploration or before ? :confused:
The plan is still to explore with the faster the galleons.

The plan is still to explore with the faster the galleons.

I see ... :mischief:

But I feel somehow unconfortable with the fact that we will have no real information about our future targets asap ... even diverting time to research construction could be a little bit tricky - if fact if the AI didn't expect to be attacked it will not build too much defensive units - no ? :rolleyes:

I just remembered that we get overflow from the wall chop in Carthage. Is it 75 :hammers:? That's one sword. Overflow into to-be-galleon. (~16 :hammers:). We can then chop another sword before chopping the galleon. Then we load the galleon with the 2 swords and the axe. It's a bit of MM to ensure that the galley is not completed before astro :eek: but else it should work. Will require 1.5 workers though (~25 worker turns during 17 play turns for dual chops, mine, pasture).

I see ... :mischief:

But I feel somehow unconfortable with the fact that we will have no real information about our future targets asap ... even diverting time to research construction could be a little bit tricky - if fact if the AI didn't expect to be attacked it will not build too much defensive units - no ? :rolleyes:

The galleon from Carthage goes east and one galleon from our west coast goes west. Both ships move VERY carefully to ensure that they don't initiate contact. We don't want the AI into war. We will then know the general layout of the land (ocean?) although we don't know the defenses.

We can always change our mind and explore fully and getting into war with all three AI. The war will then be easier to fight in one sense since we can plan it better. On the other hand, the AI will have more units. Delicate problem :crazyeye:

jesusin, any opinions on whether we want to start exploring the world on T21 instead of T30? :lol:

Thanks for quoting. I am worried about out lack of exploration. What if all three AIs are in Ragnar's island and it has only 40 tiles to share among them 3?



Other small points I am considering:

1. 3-chops-golden-walls doesn't look too shiny. Let's do the 5-chops one if we can, and let's chop those 3 forests into swords.
2. Let's send an empty galleon East to get the circumnavigation bonus. But only if we can really afford it.
3. Let's not get a remote base East. We can't afford it.

I just remembered that we get overflow from the wall chop in Carthage. Is it 75 :hammers:?Nope. Not how it works. It's kind of weird, actually. The hammer overflow in Carthage will be 25:hammers:. In Ivory City, it would be 23:hammers:. I suppose the difference comes from the 300% factor in Carthage and 325% factor in Ivory City (with Confucianism). [Certified: WB Tested. ;)]

CIV will not overflow more than the production cost of the build = 75:hammers: for walls, but those hammers overflow only at their base value = 75 / 3 = 25:hammers: or 75 / 3.25 = 23:hammers:. The remaining hammers from the overflow convert to gold. For some reason, CIV converts them to gold at the base + bonus value. In IVory City that's 325% (100% base + 100% stone + 100% protective + 25% Organized Rel. = 325%). So for the first chop we get 44h -23h = 21h * 325% = ~68 coins (depends slightly on how many city production hammers you put in on the last turn). For each chop thereafter, we get 44h * 325% = 143 coins.

In cities without Confuciansim, we get 132 coins per chop after the first one. Either way, each non-first chop pays for most of upgrading a galley to galleon.

3-chop GOlden Walls at Carthage should give us ~354 coins.
5-chop GOlden Walls at Ivory City would give us ~672 coins.

If we get a prophet, it will take us another 10 turn with scientists (and Athens will pop GS/GE on the same turn :().True confessions: I have never triggered a Golden Age in CIV!?! :blush: How much of a kick in the rear would a GA give us in this scenario?
2. Let's send an empty galleon East to get the circumnavigation bonus. But only if we can really afford it.This is workable in all likelihood, but it would be a bummer if our galleon ran into a vertical continent (unlikely on this map setting, I guess). An axe/sword or axe/spear pair could hop off and continue the circumnavigation, as long as they survived, while the galleon went around.

Knowing Gyathaar, he might have even made circumnavigation impossible without land units traipsing across All-War AI turf... :eek:1. 3-chops-golden-walls doesn't look too shiny. Let's do the 5-chops one if we can, and let's chop those 3 forests into swords.
There are trade-offs. As klarius has pointed out, Carthage does not have barracks, Ivory City does. On the other hand, Ivory City has Confucianism (+25% on Golden Walls), Carthage does not. Carthage has only 3 workers for doing a simultaneous chop. Ivory City is well-positioned to chop all of its five forests.

I like both Golden Walls, because I think we need research more than anything else, especially in the next 10-20 turns. Bottom line: I think the Ivory Golden Walls can save us more turns on our victory than chopping those forests into units (whether we get a GProph or not). But who knows?

We can always change our mind and explore fully and getting into war with all three AI. The war will then be easier to fight in one sense since we can plan it better. On the other hand, the AI will have more units. Delicate problem :crazyeye:

I'd do it that way.

One way to handle the Ivory City Golden Walls dilemma would be to wait till T13/14 when the 3rd Great Leader pops out of Timbuktu. Then the walls could still be chopped by about T20 if the 5 workers weren't too far away at the moment...

As I understand it, the only conflict left to resolve for klarius turnset is whether or not klarius should prepare for the wall chop in Ivory City or not. The chop does not need to complete until ~T21, yes?

I suggest that klarius plays until GS i popped in Timbuktu (~T13). That gives enough time for the nearby workers to rally to the forest in time (~T15), yes?

The limitation is then that the Ivory-forest shall not be chopped into swords. Preserve the virgin woods! :D

A GA would be very useful (+1:commerce: for every tile with :commerce:, +1:hammers: for every tile with :hammers:). It would prevent whipping and specialists though. One alternative would be to research Construction and use the GS from Athens to lightbulb Astro...

EDIT: crosspost :lol: - now, does that make me think like LC :rockon: or like gnejs :suicide:

Ok, I'll keep the wood at ivory. :)

The world is upside down. Could it be that jesusin-the-peacemonger (who even doesn't know how to declare war) has a better grip on the fastest way to conquer the world than Erkon-the-warmonger (who hasn't been declared on since god knows)???? :confused:

Let klarius-the-klearsighted decide...

klarius, what is the impact on the three AI if we get into contact with them a significant amount of turns before we attack? How many more units will we face? Could it be that the number of units built during the 9 war-panic-turns are marginal? Could it be that the galleon passing eastwards from Carthage will generate a wave of panic that will subside? Will the AI return to business-as-usual once our galleon has disappeared over the horizon?

Playing this SGOTM is painful, constantly forcing me to re-evaluate my experience and prior knowledge. Curse you jesusin if you're right!

I'm pretty sure not being on their land mass lessens their unfounded paranoia. :mwaha: How much, only klarius knows.

I played. The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Murky_Waters_SG006_BC0040_01.CivWarlordsSave)
Well, it's sometimes better to be lucky than good. Worker management wasn't that hot. But we got an engineer in Athens and a Scientist in Timbuktu.
So we are looking towards astronomy in 35AD, while we still have grown our cities quite a bit (not using optimal scientist numbers).

My log:
Turn 0:
Look through cities. Move a few workers. Restart the wall chops at Carthage.
Do hunting in one turn to make LC happy.

Turn 1:
Not much.

Turn 2:
Barb archer kills warrior near London. Chariot has revenge.

Turn 3:
Golden wall in. Kill a barb.
Change Athens from scientist to gold, to minamally increase engineer chance (will get Gx with exactly 300).

Turn 4:
Change from gold to second clam in Athens.

Turn 5:
GLight BIADL.

Turn 6:
Great engineer born in Athens. Turn research rate up to get MC quicker.
Timbuktu goes on diet.

Turn 7:
Yawn.

Turn 8:
MC in. Lightbulb machinery. Research compass.

Turn 9:
We have a look on the barb city. 2 archers (no worker) and size 2. There is a second barb city nearby.

Turn 10-12:
Yawn.

Turn 13:
Fight a barb for fun.

Turn 14:
We get a scientist in Timbuktu.
We can have optics (and by that astronomy) in 5.
Worker management didn't turn out optimal.
1 worker is late (didn't really expect that now all looks so urgent with the good luck).
So we can either do just a 4 forest golden wall or bring up another worker for helping 1 turn.

Also 2XGold and Carthage will probably not look optimal for galley->galleon.
But as these cities have also now a pretty high production that's not that bad.

I leave the exact MM sequence to LC.
Turn 150, 250 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 151, 235 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.10)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Combat Odds: 41.8%
Turn 151, 235 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 151, 235 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 151, 235 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Churchill's Warrior!

Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (1.74)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 152, 220 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 152, 220 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (18/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 152, 220 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 152, 220 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 220 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 152, 220 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Combat Odds: 88.4%
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 153, 205 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have trained a Galley in 2XGold City. Work has now begun on a Trireme.

Turn 154, 190 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!

Turn 155, 175 BC: The borders of Timbuktu have expanded!
Turn 155, 175 BC: George Washington Goethals (Great Engineer) has been born in Athens (Churchill)!

Turn 156, 160 BC: Adam Smith (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 95.7%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 157, 145 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Churchill's Chariot (5.60)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 1.7%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 158, 130 BC: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.90)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 158, 130 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 158, 130 BC: You have discovered Machinery!

Turn 160, 100 BC: Carthage will grow to size 10 on the next turn

Turn 161, 85 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in FP City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 161, 85 BC: Hinduism has spread in FP City.

Turn 162, 70 BC: London will grow to size 8 on the next turn

Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.45)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 163, 55 BC: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 163, 55 BC: London has grown to size 8
Turn 163, 55 BC: Zu Chongzhi (Great Scientist) has been born in Timbuktu (Churchill)!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Ivory City will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.30)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 4.0%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 163, 55 BC: While defending, your Warrior has killed a Barbarian Warrior!
Turn 163, 55 BC: A Forest has grown near FP City!

Looks like a good turn set klarius.

I played.
Well, it's sometimes better to be lucky than good. Worker management wasn't that hot. But we got an engineer in Athens and a Scientist in Timbuktu.
So we are looking towards astronomy in 35AD, while we still have grown our cities quite a bit (not using optimal scientist numbers).


That's an extraordinary news !!! :goodjob:

we got an engineer in Athens and a Scientist in Timbuktu.
So we are looking towards astronomy in 35AD, while we still have grown our cities quite a bit (not using optimal scientist numbers).

Do hunting in one turn to make LC happy. Why, thank you! ;)

We can have optics (and by that astronomy) in 5.Outrageous klarius! Outfingrageous! I'm gonna sleep well tonight. I can't believe it. We may have had some things go wrong this game, but if there was one turnset where we needed it to go right, this was it.

Fantastic! Unbelievable! :clap: :bowdown: :hatsoff: :woohoo: [party] :band: :dance: :rockon: :old: :sheep: :bounce: :banana: :beer: :thanx: :agree: :cheers: :trophy: :high5: :cowboy:

klarius, you saved us >10 turns :bowdown: Really good news. :clap:

Ok, team, things are getting hot, and we have 15 turns of head ache in front of us :D . For the upcoming two turn sets, I'm thus enforcing mid-turn updates, with enough time for the rest of the team to review the action.

Murky, you're up next. Please plan the next five turns (until we learn astronomy) and the rest of us will help you improve your plan. Then you can play, and then plan the next five turns. There are a couple of key tasks that must be performed carefully (wall chop and pre-build of galleons). I'm sure LC can fill in some details, but if we're going to learn anything from last time, it's much better if you make the plan and keep it updated. This will reduce the risk of communication mishaps.

I think we should play 5 turns at a time from now to the end. (Each player does two 5-turners, I mean, of course.) That's how CFR did it last time too.

Looked at the save. Brilliant playing, klarius! Very impressive. :goodjob:

The worker management looks fine to me. The 5-chop golden walls are a cinch, if we want them.

klarius, you saved us >10 turns :bowdown: Really good news. :clap:

Ok, team, things are getting hot, and we have 15 turns of head ache in front of us :D . For the upcoming two turn sets, I'm thus enforcing mid-turn updates, with enough time for the rest of the team to review the action.

Murky, you're up next. Please plan the next five turns (until we learn astronomy) and the rest of us will help you improve your plan. Then you can play, and then plan the next five turns. There are a couple of key tasks that must be performed carefully (wall chop and pre-build of galleons). I'm sure LC can fill in some details, but if we're going to learn anything from last time, it's much better if you make the plan and keep it updated. This will reduce the risk of communication mishaps.

I cringe at the thought of jumping in now. :lol:

Maybe it would be a good idea to swap Murky and LC.
I left a lot things a bit hanging, because of the good luck.
It's not really that difficult to rectify that, there are lots of MM options, but the next turn set is still a bit tricky.
And LC can at least then capture a barb city (I think we should keep it for the forests - we can later get rid of it to the barbs) so it's not just all setting up :D.


BTW, to the question about war AI.
It doesn't make a difference if the AI is over the ocean. There is still the 9 turn ATTACKED_RECENTLY phase. Only later in the game (we didn't hit this with our local AIs), the AI will build more units if there is a land target.
Still, if we can launch a surprise attack that would be good as the the AI will build units in every town when in the ATTACKED_RECENTLY state.

The world is upside down. Could it be that jesusin-the-peacemonger (who even doesn't know how to declare war)...

Oh, but I did it once! :cool: ... by mistake :( my mouse failed and sent my unit into an AI border and I got so nervous that I pressed "accept" instead of "cancel". I was so scared of losing one of my cities that I immediately vassalized to him and won a cultural victory as his vassal in 1020AD.

...has a better grip on the fastest way to conquer the world than Erkon-the-warmonger (who hasn't been declared on since god knows)???? :confused:

Let klarius-the-klearsighted decide...

klarius, what is the impact on the three AI if we get into contact with them a significant amount of turns before we attack? How many more units will we face? Could it be that the number of units built during the 9 war-panic-turns are marginal? Could it be that the galleon passing eastwards from Carthage will generate a wave of panic that will subside? Will the AI return to business-as-usual once our galleon has disappeared over the horizon?

Playing this SGOTM is painful, constantly forcing me to re-evaluate my experience and prior knowledge. Curse you jesusin if you're right!

My opinion was based on my personal preferences. I dislike gambling. I like making informed decisions. The more information we gather, the best we can plan our actions.

I played.
...
We can have optics (and by that astronomy) in 5.


Well done, klarius!

Does the ATTACKED_RECENTLY state start upon DoW or after our first unit attacks or when?

Maybe it would be a good idea to swap Murky and LC.
I left a lot things a bit hanging, because of the good luck.
It's not really that difficult to rectify that, there are lots of MM options, but the next turn set is still a bit tricky.
And LC can at least then capture a barb city (I think we should keep it for the forests - we can later get rid of it to the barbs) so it's not just all setting up :D.I think every turnset and every turn from here on out will be tricky, if we want to win this thing. :eek:

The MM for Murky's 5 turns boils down to
- getting the Ivory City Golden Walls right
- managing the worker and pre-building the galley in Carthage
- getting units to our galleons by T6
- building swords

It's not that big a deal. Nothing to cringe about. MM is like foreplay. Imagine you have a chance to woo this sea urchin

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_14209~Raquel-Welch-Posters.jpg and all you have to do is
- build Golden Walls in Ivory City so you can afford her dinner
- pre-build the galley and MM the worker actions to get your galleon to travel to Italy
- get a bunch of units to our other coast to protect her from all her old boyfriends
- build a bunch of swords to kill off the paparazzi.
When she lays eyes on you, this all makes her feel beautiful enough to do... what was that phrase, jesusin? :lol:

Barb City North
It occurred to me there's a big problem with this city--no stone, so to use it for Golden Walls we would need a lot of roads or fewer roads and capture 2Fish Barb City. I'd rather save it for later, if we need it to avoid a STRIKE and our workers have time to build roads.

5-Chop Ivory City Golden Walls Give Us 3 Upgraded Galleons (EDIT: on T6) and Almost Construction on T8

Expenses
3 upgraded galleons = 465:gold:
Cash reserves needed to research Optics and Construction @ 100% = ~592:gold:
Total Expenses: ~1057:gold:

Reserves and Income
Reserves = 277:gold:
Golden Walls = ~689:gold: (17h + 5 chops @ 44h on top of 74/75h)
Total Reserves and Income: ~966:gold:

We're about 90:gold: short. Either we make it up by capturing a city (AI or Barb) or with scientists, if possible, or we get Construction on T9. Revolt T9-10.

Does the ATTACKED_RECENTLY state start upon DoW or after our first unit attacks or when?
ATTACKED_RECENTLY starts with DoW and has nothing to do with units visible or attacking.

Only the by now ;), well known danger state in cities is related to units.

Another tiny MM point:
If we run out of money, it's better to use some merchants in other cities and still stay on high slider, as the money burnt in Athens will then get the library multiplier.

...
BTW, to the question about war AI.
It doesn't make a difference if the AI is over the ocean. There is still the 9 turn ATTACKED_RECENTLY phase. Only later in the game (we didn't hit this with our local AIs), the AI will build more units if there is a land target.
Still, if we can launch a surprise attack that would be good as the the AI will build units in every town when in the ATTACKED_RECENTLY state.

If we trigger the war with the third AI early by scouting the land, and then wait say 20 turns before we attack, perhaps the damage will not be that large compared to the intel gained?

What if all the AI are on the same continent? Will all AI know when we take the first city, and build units accordingly?

Will the units be defenders or attackers?

We're going to crush them with cats, swords, and war elephants. You'll be lucky if you get to play along... :p

What if all the AI are on the same continent? Will all AI know when we take the first city, and build units accordingly?

Will the units be defenders or attackers?

They will build units when we declare.

Defenders will be built if they lack defenders, which could be if they are isolated. Otherwise attackers as they will not have enough probably. They might also build walls or barracks, if they have already enough units, because they were preparing a war anyway.
That's the biggest risk we have that we run into a stack preparing for a war against a neighbor.

If Carthage runs 4 scientists instead of five, we will get three galleys on T7. If we then run 50% research, we'll get Optics on T6. Two of these can be chopped on T6 and produce the Galleons on T7 (2xGold and Carthage). The Carthage can be filled with one axe, the chariot and the sword up north. We have 6 available swords that we can send to Ragnoka on ~T9.

Does it make sense to upgrade more than one western galley if we don't have the units to fill them? We will have about 70 coins in the treasury at T6, and we'll be running >+30 gpt, which means we'll be able to upgrade that galley on ~T10. That's a bit late, I know, but with a bit of tweaking I think we can upgrade one galley without the Ivory chop.

The third western galleon will arrive from Athens shortly afterwards. With coins from captured cities and from our surplus, we will be able to upgrade the last two galleons shortly after.

We can then use the Ivory Chop for swords.

I think this is an attractive strategy. We won't have cats and oliphants, but we will have 4-5 extra swords from Ivory City. And we will be starting the war two turns earlier, and getting circum two turns earlier etc...

It's not that big a deal. Nothing to cringe about. MM is like foreplay.
...
[/B] what was that phrase, jesusin? :lol:


:rotfl:



I love your analogy. :lol: People will stop hating MM when they read this.

You know?, you are still helping me with my English. I have had to look up foreplay, woo and urchin in the dictionary. :goodjob:

klarius, is the N NE forest at Carthage pre-chopped, by any chance?

klarius, is the N NE forest at Carthage pre-chopped, by any chance?
There were no pre-chops happening in my turn-set. Just where the worker is now. There the chop can be timed, by just switching to mining for a few turns w/o losing worker turns on empty movements.

Two of these can be chopped on T6 and produce the Galleons on T7 (2xGold and Carthage).

Does it make sense to upgrade more than one western galley if we don't have the units to fill them? Good idiocies ideas, Erkon! :goodjob: I forgot to examine how fast those galleons get chopped.

Basic principles:
1. We want to have galleons asap for earliest attack and quicker circumnavigation.
2. We want to have units available for attack at the same time.
3. We want to revolt asap for poprushing and to increase our :hammers: per turn.
4. We don't want to revolt before completing our research.
5. At 3 turns, Construction gives us bridge building, cats, WEs, and better poprushing factors. Thus, Construction is a no-brainer. Brainless comments to the contrary are not recommended. - The Management.

Galleons
We want 2 galleons in the west and 1 in the east, asap.
* Upgrading gets us galleons with movement points on T7.
* 2xGold can complete a galleon on T7, Athens on ~T10, Carthage on T6.
* Athens is too late, so the best is to upgrade 1 galley in the west = 155:gold:.

Units
* On T6 Carthage can place a sword/axe pair or sword/axe/chariot triplet.
* On T7 2xGold/London can provide 6 swords, 2-3 chariots (including Jeanne), 1 axe.
* On T8 2xGold/London can have 3 more swords, not including any Ivory chopped swords.

Revolt As Soon As Possible
Earliest possible date to Construction: T8
* Our post-Erkonian Expenses are ~747:gold:. (only 1 early upgrade)
* 747 - 277:gold: current reserves = 470:gold: needed to complete our research.
* A 3-chop Golden Wall in Ivory City produces ~403:gold:
* A 4-chop Golden Wall in Ivory City produces ~546:gold: :thumbsup:

Konveniently, klairvoyent klarius has Ivory City set up for a 4-chop (a 5-chop is doable, but incompatible with also chopping the 2xGold galleon! ;))

Conclusion
Our Carthage galleon starts a turn sooner, our attack is still on schedule, we get Construction on T8, and we save 1 chop at Ivory City!

klarius obviously knew this all along, since he wanted to chop 1 forest at Ivory City. :lol:

I just started to take a look at the save.

Took this screenshot.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6966/ragnar0001sh6.th.jpg] (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ragnar0001sh6.jpg)

IMHO we definately need catapults and elephants for a succesfull attack - even maybe not for the bridge-heads ...

How do we get Galleons by T6?

edit: Nevermind, I see.

IMHO we definately need catapults and elephants for a succesfull attack - even maybe not for the bridge-heads ...

Did we need them in SGOTM5? That was one difficult level higher, and 500 years later. Do we definitely need them? :confused: :crazyeye:

Did we need them in SGOTM5? That was one difficult level higher, and 500 years later. Do we definitely need them? :confused: :crazyeye:It's not about needing them. It's about taking advantage of them. We know we're going to run into at least 4 cities with a lot of culture. We may run into cities with a half a dozen units. We can't poprush swords right in most of our cities. Etc. etc.

Did we need them in SGOTM5? That was one difficult level higher, and 500 years later. Do we definitely need them? :confused: :crazyeye:
We don't really know.
But SGOTM5 was something completely different. We knew that most of the troop traveling would be on land. We knew early that there where some good cities to capture and that quite a few roads existed already.
Most likely in this game we need mostly sea transport. It's much better then to have less but higher quality troops.
The investment for construction is pretty low as we have the empire tooled to science currently.
Cats and elephants are definitely giving better bang for the hammer, IMO.

BTW, if we shouldn't go for construction we should raze the barb city. It's not worth the worker turns to connect it, but the city is well worth it to chop cats (after culture expansion, which is only feasible by an artist if we stay long enough in caste).

Ok, I'm convinced. Let's go for Construction then, and do the Ivory Walls thing :D

Murky, could you please provide a PPP today (Saturday) or latest tomorrow?

Ok, I'm convinced. Let's go for Construction then, and do the Ivory Walls thing :D

Murky, could you please provide a PPP today (Saturday) or latest tomorrow?

I'll try but you have to take in to account that I have to catch-up with you guys on where things stand. It's hard to see where you're going if you don't know where you've been. :lol:

Shouldn't we get construction before galleons?

No. We want galleons asap to start our exploration and circumnavigation. Plus, we can attack with swords.

No. We want galleons asap to start our exploration and circumnavigation. Plus, we can attack with swords.

Wouldn't it be better to load up our Galleons with Cats/Swords/WE then land on the viking shore ready to raid and pillage? :ar15:

Takes too long. We want to attack before he becomes any more advanced.

Pre-Play-Plan overview
Critical that Ivory City Golden walls generate the gold to keep research at 100%.
Get Swords to ships. Look after Barbarians.

CITY BUILDS
London: Swords, Chariot, Sword? Only need a chariot if you think you need it for the barbs.
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Swords(2), Sword(1), Golden Walls(3)
FP City: Swords
2xGold: Galley, Sword
Athens: Galley (to change into Galleon)
Carthage: Galley (Galleon)

Prioritize research for the the next 8 turns, Optics->Pop GSx2 for Astro then Construction.

UNIT MOVES
Galleys to 2xgold/london? 1 galley at 2xGold, 1 at London. You can begin moving units to SE of the Spices--closest to Ragnar's cultural tiles.

Swords to ships
Chariots?

WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Chop Forest?
Carthage: Continue Chopping for 3 turns? Exactly, then the worker can mine/stop action until Turn 5, when you upload. IMPORTANT: Switch the lake citizen to the Copper to get the galley in 6-7 turns.
Timbuktu: Farms?
London: Plantation->Mine Jungle
Ivory City: 6 Turns to Golden Walls
FP: Send that worker to mine the Athens hill. Switch 1 citizen in FP City from scientist to Iron to get the sword faster.


CITY MM
Optimize for Research in our Science Cities and Growth/Production in all others You might sacrifice production a bit to finish Optics in 5 turns, but not in Carthage or 2xGold, where we're building galleons

I borrowed an earlier PPP for the template.

How does the golden walls thing work exactly?Basic idea: You pre-build walls to 74/75:hammers: and you have 4 workers finish 4 different forest chops on the same turn.

The workers are already pretty much in place, as you see here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_40bc_GOlden_walls_worker_actions.JPG

-----------------------------

It will take two turns to pre-build the walls to 74/75:hammers:. Here is one way to do it (35:hammers: + 39:hammers: = 74:hammers:):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_40bc_Ivory_35_hammers_done.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_40bc_Ivory_39_hammers_done.JPG

Caution:
1. On chop #4, check to see if someone pre-chopped that tile, so that it will finish before the others. All chops must finish on the same turn.
2. Watch out for the hammer overflow from the sword you're building! You could do it this way: finish sword(2 turns)->partial sword (1 turn)->pre-build walls (2 turns).
3. Walls must not be completed before the chops are done!!!

Murky, we live or die by these Golden Walls...

Do you complete the walls on the turn the chops are done?

Do you complete the walls on the turn the chops are done?Yes. When the chops are done and those hammers go into whatever build is happening that turn, that build should be the walls.

So you will see something like Walls 74/75 and you'll also see that the hammers for that turn will be more than 200:hammers:.

You can pre-build the walls to 74/75 and then start building something else while waiting for the forests to be choppped. On the turn they get chopped, you have to remember to switch the build back to walls.

By the way, on that turn, you also can (and should) switch the citizens back to the ivory camps so we'll get even more out of our Golden Walls.

PPP plan with some questions intermixed.

London/2xgold, check MM, check workers, build swords
Ivory City, golden walls->worker actions
Timbuktu?
Carthage->Prebuild galley
Athens->Sword?Galley
FP City?
Keep teching at 100% on Optics, at T6 use GS for Astronomy then start on Construction?

How does the golden walls thing work exactly?

Good start Murky! Let's see if there's room for improvement :D I would actually suggest that you play three turns and upload if you feel the slightest uncertainty. There's a lot of things in this turn set that is pretty advanced and complicated, and I don't want you to feel overwhelmed ;)

London: choose whatever you think is best: plant the bananas, plant the dyes or mine a jungle hill. It's up to you. Or perhaps road the tile west of the dyes?

2xGold: If you switch to galley right away, it will switch to Galleon when you learn Astronomy. This will fit very well if you send the worker next to the gold mine to chop the forest south of 2xgold right away. Then you can complete the sword after the Galleon. If you do this, you will save us about 2 turns.

Timbuku is fine with running 5 scientist for a while.

Athens is fine with building the Galley. As long as it does not complete, the build will switch to Galleon once we learn Astronomy. This is very good. We don't want any more galleys, since they cost 155 gold to upgrade to Galleons.

Carthage: Please ensure that you don't complete the galley before astronomy i.e. don't complete the chop of the forest too early. It's better to just idle the worker for two turns than complete the galley (the wait is worth 155 gold). Also, please move the sword between Timbuktu and Carthage towards the SE. Then it can board the soon-to-be-Galleon together with the two axes.

FP City. If you want, you can deallocate one scientist and work the copper. The worker can either mine the forest hill to the east or mine the hill east of Athens.

Now, as LC has pointed out, the Wall chop is the most important.

Murky, could you please update with the PPP with your thoughts regarding the stuff we've presented. It's a procedure I want us to adopt since it a) shows that we don't misunderstand each others, and b) it's a good way for the turn set player to keep the rest of us updated on new ideas etc.

Sure Erkon. I got some things to get done first but I will try to update the PPP later today.

edit: I edited in a new PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6475060&postcount=1694) based on a template from an earlier turnset.

I played Turn 0 so far. I'll wait until you guys comment before continuing on.

Pre-Play-Plan overview
Critical that Ivory City Golden walls generate the gold to keep research at 100%.
Get Swords to ships. Look after Barbarians.

CITY BUILDS
London: Swords, Chariot, Sword? Only need a chariot if you think you need it for the barbs.
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Swords(2), Sword(1), Golden Walls(3)
FP City: Swords
2xGold: Galley, Sword
Athens: Galley (to change into Galleon)
Carthage: Galley (Galleon)

Prioritize research for the the next 8 turns, Optics->Pop GSx2 for Astro then Construction.

UNIT MOVES
Galleys to 2xgold/london? 1 galley at 2xGold, 1 at London. You can begin moving units to SE of the Spices--closest to Ragnar's cultural tiles.
Swords to ships
Chariots?

WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Chop Forest? Yes!

Carthage: Continue Chopping for 3 turns? Exactly, then the worker can mine/stop action until Turn 5, when you upload. IMPORTANT: Switch the lake citizen to the Copper to get the galley in 6-7 turns.

Timbuktu: Farms? No. Just mine that hill. klarius grew our cities. Our focus is now production.

London: Plantations, Farm or Cottage Jungle/River tiles? I think the best is to mine the jungle/hill. This will give us awesome production there.

Ivory City: 6 Turns to Golden Walls

FP: Farms on FPs? I'd send that worker to mine the Athens hill. Switch 1 citizen in FP City from scientist to Iron to get the sword faster.

CITY MM
Optimize for Research in our Science Cities and Growth/Production in all others You might sacrifice production a bit to finish Optics in 5 turns, but not in Carthage or 2xGold, where we're building galleons.

I borrowed an earlier PPP for the template.Looks quite good Murky. I would add just what's highlighted in red above.

Please just play till Turn 5. Then we'll look it over tomorrow. We're counting on you, Murky!!!

Oh, by the way, if you want you can capture that barb city with the axe. But if you do, keep it!!! We'll chop units there later.

Best of luck!!!

Btw, if you stop on T5, the Golden Walls won't be done yet, I guess. That's fine, we'll just make certain it's right.

Edit: If you capture that barb city, hire an artist for 4 turns to pop the cultural borders.

Bad Omen?
Are the RNG god with us or against us?


Turn 165, 25 BC: Logging Game to File: mwautolog.txt

Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.75)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 5 AD: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 167, 5 AD: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!

Turn 168, 20 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Carthage.

That Axe had CR2 against a unpromoted Archer. The Archer didn't even get a scratch.

I uploaded the save after 3 turns.

The axe is no problem--that happens. Two much bigger problems are the finished chop in Carthage and the Golden Walls in Ivory CIty. You're only chopping 3 forests and we needed four. In fact, with the galley-chop screwed up in Carthage, we now need 5 forests chopped into the Golden Walls. What to do?

The axe is no problem--that happens. Two much bigger problems are the finished chop in Carthage and the Golden Walls in Ivory CIty. You're only chopping 3 forests and we needed four. In fact, with the galley-chop screwed up in Carthage, we now need 5 forests chopped into the Golden Walls. What to do?

Sorry LC. We could stop the Ivory chops and re-adjust. The 44 :hammers: at Carthage could go into a Courthouse to lower the cost of the city.

edit:

Cancel the 3 workers chopping near FP City. Move them to Ivory City.
Cancel the chops at Ivory City, start chopping two more forest. Get walls to 74/75 then chop at once. It would delay the golden walls 2 turns or so.

There's another problem--you're not building a galleon in 2xGold. Yikes. So we need 3 galley upgrades. This is dire.

There's another problem--you're not building a galleon in 2xGold. Yikes. So we need 3 galley upgrades. This is dire.

Athens is building Galley #3. Can't we get more gold from chopping the Barracks? Don't we want 2xgold producing trained reinforcements?

I apologize if I messed things up too much and for not clearing some changes to my plan first. Erkon, you can fire me from the rest of the turnset and let LC try to fix it up.

I wouldn't complete any more galleys, but switch away and later complete the galleons slowly. But 2XG goes to galley now.
We want one galleon on each side fast for circumnavigation. The troop transports are not that urgent, as there aren't that many troops.
Use max specialist, but MM with merchants (not in Athens), so Optics comes exactly in 2.
Do the 3 forest chop at ivory. After optics we do a turn with slider 0 - max merchants, which hopefully then is enough for the second upgrade.

Athens is building Galley #3. Can't we get more gold from chopping the Barracks? Don't we want 2xgold producing trained reinforcements?Eventually we may, but Athens and 2xGold are our only western port towns for building galleons, so we were planning to specialize on that for the time being. We'll see, but I kind of doubt we'll build too many more swords here.

I wouldn't complete any more galleys, but switch away and later complete the galleons slowly. But 2XG goes to galley now.
We want one galleon on each side fast for circumnavigation. The troop transports are not that urgent, as there aren't that many troops.
Use max specialist, but MM with merchants (not in Athens), so Optics comes exactly in 2.
Do the 3 forest chop at ivory. After optics we do a turn with slider 0 - max merchants, which hopefully then is enough for the second upgrade.I agree. We do the 3-chop Walls in Ivory and use that to upgrade two circumnavigators. The west galleon has to bear sharply NW to avoid DoWing Mr. Purple.

I propose a slight variation on the rest of your ideas, klarius:
- Optics in 1 turn (so we can start the slow galleon builds 1 turn sooner)
- 2-chop Golden Walls in FP City (4t), to help finish COnstruction, if necessary and for the third galley upgrade.
- Probably revolt asap, depending on which builds about about to finish. The sooner we go to Police state, the sooner we get the +25%, for galleons too, of course.

I propose a slight variation on the rest of your ideas, klarius:
- Optics in 1 turn (so we can start the slow galleon builds 1 turn sooner)
- 2-chop Golden Walls in FP City (4t), to help finish COnstruction, if necessary and for the third galley upgrade.
- Probably revolt asap, depending on which builds about about to finish. The sooner we go to Police state, the sooner we get the +25%, for galleons too, of course.
Well I don't see the big starvation, needed for Optics in one, buying us a lot.
We cannot upgrade anything before the wall money comes in (T2). We don't have the troops to fill more galleons (should be possible to upgrade the third existing galley with some merchant turns).

I also don't think police state earlier makes sense. That loses us hundreds of beakers for a handful of hammers.

Edit:
I think we only need 1 turn (max 2) of high merchants to upgrade the 3rd galley.

How many Galleons are we going to need?

... Erkon, you can fire me from the rest of the turnset and let LC try to fix it up.

As if that would help... :lol:

Well, it's up to you Murky. It's quite a sensitive turn set, and requires attention to lots of details. If that is not what you find fun and exciting, LC can take over. It's your call, I'm never going to enforce anyone to hand over the turn set pre-maturely. Imagine how often the peanut gallery would request me to act as an example and end my turn set after 2 turns!!!

As if that would help... :lol:

Well, it's up to you Murky. It's quite a sensitive turn set, and requires attention to lots of details. If that is not what you find fun and exciting, LC can take over. It's your call, I'm never going to enforce anyone to hand over the turn set pre-maturely. Imagine how often the peanut gallery would request me to act as an example and end my turn set after 2 turns!!!

:lol: Yeah, LC might screw it up even worse. :crazyeye:

If you guys want, I will carry out klarius' ideas for going forward.

:lol: Yeah, LC might screw it up even worse. :crazyeye:

If you guys want, I will carry out klarius' ideas for going forward.

I've checked the save, and there's some urgent changes that has to be done on T0, and we have to agree on those before we continue the turn set... Example, why building the library in FP City? We're stopping research in 10 turns :eek:

Well I don't see the big starvation, needed for Optics in one, buying us a lot.
We cannot upgrade anything before the wall money comes in (T2). We don't have the troops to fill more galleons (should be possible to upgrade the third existing galley with some merchant turns).

I also don't think police state earlier makes sense. That loses us hundreds of beakers for a handful of hammers.

Edit:
I think we only need 1 turn (max 2) of high merchants to upgrade the 3rd galley.Obviously we wouldn't go to Police State while we still need beakers. Let me say it again:

T1 Finish Optics + Astronomy. This way, Carthage and Athens can start 1 turn sooner adding hammers to the already full galley builds and they'll finish those galleons 1 turn sooner. This involves just a little of starvation in a 2-3 cities (I forget off the top of my head), doesn't affect the Ivory City Golden Walls at all and only loses a few pointless hammers in Athens and Carthage (can't build galley any more), etc.

T2 3-chop Golden Walls in Ivory City done = ~400g, enough to upgrade 2 galleons and finance a bit of research. 2 galleons go off to circumnavigate.

T3 - T4 - 2-chop Golden Walls in FP City done = ~213g. Enough to finish Construction, as needed. If possible, also upgrade 3rd galley. If we still need cash, we also work some merchants to finance the upgrade.

... monitor our builds and when it makes sense, revolt (the sooner the better, but I still prefer capturing the first Purple City before the revolt, as I have saidall along.

This is exactly what I meant above with my "slight variation." In other words, it's your plan with the FP City Golden Walls added to allow us stop working merchants 1 or 2 turns sooner.

How many Galleons are we going to need?We don't know yet. Depends on how far away the other AIs are. Could be 5, could be 7, could be 10. Whatever it takes to get our units there asap.
If you guys want, I will carry out klarius' ideas for going forward.Beware, Murky. klarius said it in just a couple sentences, but there's a whole lot of MM in what he says. In fact, more now than 3 turns ago... :crazyeye:

I mean it.

Okay, let me explain my thinking in another way.

Our research cities are also capable production cities. The sooner they switch from research to production, the sooner we win. If we can finish Construction 1 turn sooner, we want to. (Gnejs will probably freak out when he finds out we are even researching COnstruction... :lol:).

The sooner we can poprush galleons and units, the sooner we win.

The sooner the sooner. Those two chops in FP City will give us either a sword and a half or Construction a turn or two sooner. One 2pop poprush is a sword and a half, etc...

We want to win by 1 turn (at least), not lose by 1 turn, last I heard.

Oh, and by the way, we already have 6 swords. We'll have 9 in no time. We're ready to attack just as soon as we have two galleons to transport unit. Not 1 turn later.

An while I'm at it, we can upgrade galleys while in anarchy (not that we would need to). ;)

Woot! I found a working internet cafe in this desolate place. I guess all those nude people (no, not me, I am far too shy for that...;) ) that are all over the beaches here have heard about the internet after all. :lol:

Excellent news on those great people! Really wonderful! Great play so far team! :woohoo: :goodjob: :king:

Gnejs will probably freak out when he finds out we are even researching COnstruction... :lol:


No, I won't freak out. But I still think that it is a waste of production. Yes, production. Every turn not working hammer tiles means fewer units getting to the AIs early on. We have no use of catapults that can bombard the defenses of some city in 20 turns from now, because by that time the all-sword war is already over...



Going back to beach mode now. :cool: Good luck, Murky, and LC, and Mitiu. I really hope this game is finished by the time I get back to wintry Sweden.

Couldn't we we just use merchants and Universal Suffrage to buy units?

No, I won't freak out. But I still think that it is a waste of production. Yes, production. Every turn not working hammer tiles means fewer units getting to the AIs early on. We have no use of catapults that can bombard the defenses of some city in 20 turns from now, because by that time the all-sword war is already over...

Catapults are not for bombarding, but for suiciding. The other point are elephants, which might go in first in most cities w/o much danger of suicide. We don't expect that the defenses change much within a few turns, so that's not the reason to be super fast (still expect mainly archers with some sword killing axes mixed in).
Another point is that we might capture cities not connected to the trade network. Would be a shame if there is a juicy city to pop/chop rush and we can build only warriors there.

I wouldn't complete any more galleys, but switch away and later complete the galleons slowly. But 2XG goes to galley now.
We want one galleon on each side fast for circumnavigation. The troop transports are not that urgent, as there aren't that many troops.
Use max specialist, but MM with merchants (not in Athens), so Optics comes exactly in 2.
Do the 3 forest chop at ivory. After optics we do a turn with slider 0 - max merchants, which hopefully then is enough for the second upgrade.

Especially no harbors or libraries anymore or other girlie stuff.


T1 Finish Optics + Astronomy. This way, Carthage and Athens can start 1 turn sooner adding hammers to the already full galley builds and they'll finish those galleons 1 turn sooner. This involves just a little of starvation in a 2-3 cities (I forget off the top of my head), doesn't affect the Ivory City Golden Walls at all and only loses a few pointless hammers in Athens and Carthage (can't build galley any more), etc.

T2 3-chop Golden Walls in Ivory City done = ~400g, enough to upgrade 2 galleons and finance a bit of research. 2 galleons go off to circumnavigate.

T3 - T4 - 2-chop Golden Walls in FP City done = ~213g. Enough to finish Construction, as needed. If possible, also upgrade 3rd galley. If we still need cash, we also work some merchants to finance the upgrade.

... monitor our builds and when it makes sense, revolt (the sooner the better, but I still prefer capturing the first Purple City before the revolt, as I have saidall along.

This is exactly what I meant above with my "slight variation." In other words, it's your plan with the FP City Golden Walls added to allow us stop working merchants 1 or 2 turns sooner.

Pre-Play-Plan overview
3 Chops to Ivory City
Optics in 2 turns per klarius' recommendations
Use Merchant specialist to make up for the gold shortfall

CITY BUILDS
London: Swords
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Golden Walls(2) then swords
FP City: Golden Walls to be timed with chop
2xGold: Walls (to coincide with chop), Barracks, Galleon, Swords...
Athens: Galleys, Galleons
Carthage: Swords

UNIT MOVES
Galleys to 2xgold/london
Swords to 2xgold london to get on Galleons later
WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Chop Forest? Yes!
Ivory City: Finish Golden Wall chops
FP City: Cancel Chop then pre-chop more for golden walls.
Chartage: Mine hill
Timbuku: Mine hill
London: Mine hill

CITY MM
Optimize for Research in our Science Cities until Optics. After that focus on Gold/Production but get Astro and start on Construction.

What about putting the Carthage chop into a settler? It will be too late to use artists to expand its borders, but in the south it could still have 6 chops within its borders. Stone City to the North could have as many as 9 full-value forests within its borders.

Our workers will soon run out of useful work. A 150-hammer settler becomes either 6 swords (~360:hammers:) or 9 swords (540:hammers:), depending on the location.

We could also chop a settler in Timbuktu and do both cities.

Catapults are not for bombarding, but for suiciding. The other point are elephants, which might go in first in most cities w/o much danger of suicide. We don't expect that the defenses change much within a few turns, so that's not the reason to be super fast (still expect mainly archers with some sword killing axes mixed in).
Another point is that we might capture cities not connected to the trade network. Would be a shame if there is a juicy city to pop/chop rush and we can build only warriors there.

How many cities do you estimate we need to conquer to win?

I'm not sure that our workers run out of useful builds before we win the game. We still lack roads.
Edit:
There are also quite a few forests outside fat crosses which can be cut for some hammers.

BTW, my MM plan for Optics in 2.
Athens gets 6 scientists. Carthage and Timbuktu 5 merchants each. FP 3 merchants.
This is good enough for optics in 2 and we will have enough gold to immediately upgrade all 3 existing galleys.
BTW, this setup shows construction in 5 losing only 1 gpt @ 60%. Or we could leave out the third upgrade. Then we could increase the slider to 70% and do construction in 4 after optics. I would rather get through this fast instead of MM again for more hammers after the astronomy light bulb.
So in 7 turns latest we should be finished with research for this game.

I would switch Athens to barracks now as I don't think we really need 2 shipwrights on this side for long.
Carthage I would switch to sword.
No other buildings other than the discussed walls and barracks in this game. Especially no harbors or libraries anymore or other girlie stuff.

How many cities do you estimate we need to conquer to win?
All ;), though most will be razed.
I expect that we would keep at least one on every island, if it can get us some fresh troops.
I expect 3-5 cities per civ alive.

I'm not sure that our workers run out of useful builds before we win the game. We still lack roads.
Edit:
There are also quite a few forests outside fat crosses which can be cut for some hammers.

BTW, my MM plan for Optics in 2.
Athens gets 6 scientists. Carthage and Timbuktu 5 merchants each. FP 3 merchants.
This is good enough for optics in 2 and we will have enough gold to immediately upgrade all 3 existing galleys.
BTW, this setup shows construction in 5 losing only 1 gpt @ 60%. Or we could leave out the third upgrade. Then we could increase the slider to 70% and do construction in 4 after optics. I would rather get through this fast instead of MM again for more hammers after the astronomy light bulb.
So in 7 turns latest we should be finished with research for this game.

I would switch Athens to barracks now as I don't think we really need 2 shipwrights on this side for long.
Carthage I would switch to sword.
No other buildings other than the discussed walls and barracks in this game. Especially no harbors or libraries anymore or other girlie stuff.

girlie stuff? :lol:

Very well, no libs or harbors. :nuke:

Pre-Play-Plan overview
3 Chops to Ivory City
Optics in 2 turns per klarius' recommendations
Use Merchant specialist to make up for the gold shortfall

CITY BUILDS
London: Swords
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Golden Walls(2) then what more swords?
FP City: Golden Walls?
2xGold: Galley.
Athens: Galley (to change into Galleon)
Carthage: Troops or a building?

UNIT MOVES
Galleys to 2xgold/london
Swords to 2xgold london to get on Galleons later
WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Chop Forest? Yes!
Ivory City: Finish Golden Wall chops
FP City: Cancel Chop then pre-chop more for golden walls.
Chartage: Mine hill
Timbuku: Mine hill
London: Mine hill

CITY MM
Optimize for Research in our Science Cities until Optics. After that focus on Gold/Production but get Astro and start on Construction.

Murky, it's good that you work with the PPP :goodjob:

There are a couple of question marks that needs to be solved before you play. Since I want you to be happy with your turn set afterwards ;) , let's resolve these first.

First, I suggest that you play two turns and then upload. I know this may seam silly, but these two turns are VERY important that they work perfect :D

Second, DON'T complete any more galleys (in 2xGold for example). We can't afford to upgrade any more :lol: Better to start building a sword or two, and then switch back to Galleon.

Third, make sure you follow klarius Merchant guide :crazyeye:

Food for thought, Murky: You spent 6 worker-turns moving 3 workers to chop 1 forest that takes 5 worker-turns to chop.

Second, DON'T complete any more galleys (in 2xGold for example). We can't afford to upgrade any more :lol: Better to start building a sword or two, and then switch back to Galleon.Typo, Erkon, you must mean Athens or Carthage.

2xGold, to our great misfortune, has no hammers in a galley build right now.

I expect 3-5 cities per civ alive.
So in 7 turns latest we should be finished with research for this game. If we have 15 cities to capture and we're planning to spend 7 more turns researching, when we could stop in 1 turn, then I think it's silly. Forget Construction. Nothing but swords and galleons. We can research Optics in 2 turns using scientists or merchants (it makes virtually no difference whatsoever), save our 70g, add the 403g from the 3-chop Walls, upgrade all 3 galleys on T2.

We already have 11 swords by T2.
- 4 in London by T1
- 4 in 2xGold by T1
- 1 in FP City by T2
- 1 in Carthage by T2
- 1 in TImbuktu

Wtf are we waiting for? If libraries are girlie, Construction is granny.

Ok, one more thing:
The 3 workers near FP have to be stopped immediately.
I recommend that Murky doesn't to time a golden wall. We have the experience that that doesn't work out that good. ;)
I just recommend to do a few irrigations or roads and pre-chop 1 more forest. According to my calculation we should be fine with just the merchants and not upgrade the 3rd galley for now.
We could then do the wall chop in anarchy which might allow to add a couple of minor forests also, so we should be fine through our conquest.

No, I won't freak out. But I still think that it is a waste of production. Yes, production. Every turn not working hammer tiles means fewer units getting to the AIs early on. We have no use of catapults that can bombard the defenses of some city in 20 turns from now, because by that time the all-sword war is already over...

There are also quite a few forests outside fat crosses which can be cut for some hammers.You are right about these forests, klarius. I counted 20 forest inside our cultural borders and 22 outside, but within 3 tiles of the city centers.

Production
Our workers should make any necessary roads, maybe a couple of mines and do nothing else but chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chopchopchop. Chop.

production production production What are we thinking anyway?

We will not run out of money if we capture cities. If we have to later on, we can always revolt back to castes for money.

If we have 15 cities to capture and we're planning to spend 7 more turns researching, when we could stop in 1 turn, then I think it's silly. Forget Construction. Nothing but swords and galleons. We can research Optics in 2 turns using scientists or merchants (it makes virtually no difference whatsoever), save our 70g, add the 403g from the 3-chop Walls, upgrade all 3 galleys on T2.

We already have 11 swords by T2.
- 4 in London by T1
- 4 in 2xGold by T1
- 1 in FP City by T2
- 1 in Carthage by T2
- 1 in TImbuktu

Wtf are we waiting for? If libraries are girlie, Construction is granny.
Well, if we save the 70 gold it's only 4 turns more for construction.
And there is still the problem that swords alone are bad suited for pop-rushing in police state.

Well, if we save the 70 gold it's only 4 turns more for construction.
And there is still the problem that swords alone are bad suited for pop-rushing in police state.Four turns too many. Poprushing is not that important for us. Just at the beginning to jumpstart our attack.

T2 Optics + Astronomy; upgrade 3 galleys; revolt to PS + Slavery; FP City chop goes into swords. Ivory City starts 2 more chops into swords.
T3 2xGold chop goes into galleon or swords.
T4 Poprush 2 more galleons (Athens, Carthage) and maybe swords in FP City and Timbuktu.

T5...workers just chop everthing in sight. Not sure we even need to road to Spice Peninsula. Rather build an extra galleon for 2xGold galleon chain and chop more forests instead of building the roads.

Minimum value for the next 42 chops = 4h/worker-turn * 10 wkrs = 40h/t

Our current cities, w/PS, will produce~ 129h/t. So the chops increase that to almost 180h/t = 3 sword/turn. So we need a 2X galleon chain to handle the load.

Typo, Erkon, you must mean Athens or Carthage.

2xGold, to our great misfortune, has no hammers in a galley build right now.

I guess I don't get what the big deal is with building galley #3 at Athens instead of 2xgold. We only need 1 galley in the next few turns and Athen's galley is already at 74/75 :hammers:

2xgold's Barracks is timed to coincide with the chop so I see no reason to build the galley there instead of Athens. We could also time a walls build there for 3t to be finished on the same turn as the chop.

The other questions I have is FP City's Golden Walls. There is currently a Library and a Swordman in the Queue. At the current production level it would take 3 turns to complete walls. This could be bumped to 2 turns with some MM. The forest on the hill can be chopped in 2 turns with 1 worker. If I did this, how much gold would result? Would it be beneficial?

I guess I don't get what the big deal is with building galley #3 at Athen instead of 2xgold. We only need 1 galley in the next few turns and Athen's galley is already at 74/75 :hammers:

2xgold's Barracks is timed to coincide with the chop so I see no reason to build the galley there instead of Athens.

The other questions I have is FP City's Golden Walls. There is currently a Library and a Swordman in the Queue. At the current production level it would take 3 turns to complete walls. This could be bumped to 2 turns with some MM. The forest on the hill can be chopped in 2 turns with 1 worker. If I did this, how much gold would result? Would it be beneficial?
We don't want to build galleys anymore, but want the builds to change into galleons. Athens as well as 2XG and Carthage are supposed to build galleons. That means Athens and Carthage have to switch away now. 2XG shall put the forest into galley->galleon.
I would really recommend you stay away from golden walls. One forest is really not worth it for a wall. Even only 2 is not buying much for the effort. The timing to get 2 forests in is quite tricky.
We can do w/o it for now and LC can later look if he still wants put 2-4 forests in a wall. We might as well decide that's it better to put the hammers into units then (not now but in police state).

And again I want merchants in FP now to smoothly finish the research. Not MM for hammers now. I have given you the numbers of merchants we need to have all the money we need. After this is set up, there is no need for any further MM of cities. But we need the specialists now, not hammers, at least until optics is researched and astronomy light bulbed.

And throw the library out of the queue completely. We will not research anymore when the library would complete.

The way that I played it just seemed to make the most sense to me.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 20 AD to 95 AD:

Turn 168, 20 AD: Logging Game to File: mwautolog.txt

Turn 169, 35 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Ivory City.
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have constructed a Walls in Ivory City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have constructed a Walls in FP City. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 170, 50 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for 2XGold City.
Turn 170, 50 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 170, 50 AD: You have constructed a Walls in 2XGold City. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (2.80)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Combat Odds: 12.2%
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 171, 65 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 171, 65 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.60) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.90)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have declared war on Ragnar!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in 2XGold City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.

Turn 172, 80 AD: You have declared war on Saladin!
Turn 172, 80 AD: You have plundered 3? from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 172, 80 AD: London celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 172, 80 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in FP City. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 173, 95 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 173, 95 AD: You have captured a Worker


There is a very interesting development to the west. Please check the save.

I think we should have little problem taking down both Ragnar and Saladin with or without cats/WEs

Not bad at all - but something I didn't understand ...

Why you unloaded only 2 swordsman in the forest not-near Ragnar's bigger city instead of dropping them near the city which is defended by only 1 archer ??

Well done Murky! Now Erkon will not talk anymore about "girlishly avoiding meeting our enemies". :goodjob:

Specially since we have walls in all of our cities to protect from them :sad: :sad: :sad:

Well, klarius, you can deny Murky "kept away from golden walls". They are plain old brick walls :lol:

The combat calculator link is weird. Anyone have it dowloaded or a different link to it?

Not bad at all - but something I didn't understand ...

Why you unloaded only 2 swordsman in the forest not-near Ragnar's bigger city instead of dropping them near the city which is defended by only 1 archer ??

Only one swordsman landed to stop the worker from chopping. I assume we will capture the city and want to chop those forests ourselves. Capturing the worker saves us from transporting workers overthere. There are still moves remaining for the Galleon and the other Swords if we want to take out the other city.

Why you unloaded only 2 swordsman in the forest not-near Ragnar's bigger city instead of dropping them near the city which is defended by only 1 archer ??In addition to what Murky said, that forest hill is also a nice defensive position for our swords against Ragnar's axes. Better for us to hold that spot than Ragnar.

I have looked at the save. Very interesting indeed. We now have 4 galleons and Ragnar looks very weak. Nidaros has almost no production without poprushing.

Three AI capitals and Uppsala contain almost half (26) of the remaining 60 world population. The unknown AI has a coastal ubercapital with the Great Wall (Stonehenge and the Great Lighthouse), so not too many barb XP for his defenders, hopefully. Sal and Ragnar have the two other religions.

Looks like we'll need 3-4 galleons just to chain to Saladin.

Got it....

Well done Murky! Now Erkon will not talk anymore about "girlishly avoiding meeting our enemies". :goodjob:
...

:lol:

I can take that, now that klarius has promised to not build forges and courthouses! :D

It's kind of strange that we now have achieved (more or less) what we planned for 100 turns ago. It feels like we just have to wrap this up, but of course there's still planning to do.

And I look forward to see if LC-the-builder will excel in warfare as well. :cool:

Ok, let's not talk about MM anymore.
Now, that we have no chance to get a sufficient surprise attack on Nidaros (aggressive sword and axe in a walled iron hill city is about the worst thing that could happen), I think we should capture the other city hoping to pull out the new attackers built in Nidaros.
I'd kill the Arab warrior directly from the boat now. Otherwise he likely hides in the city and we have to kill them there. Don't promote the sword before so you have 2 promotions for healing.
Landing the other sword also should give good chances to get the city next turn.
Don't pillage any more fishing nets :cry: . Don't hunt workers - they will wait for us in Nidaros anyway.

Alternatively (but high risk of not gaining anything):
Put everything you can to Nidaros for an attack T3 (no circumnavigation westwards). But we will probably then face axe, sword, archer and maybe another sword (which might be pulled out with the worker).

SECOND DRAFT: Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW -- First 5 turns
Raze Uppsala and capture Nidaros. Send off 1-2 galleons for circumnavigation.

BUILD QUEUE
Athens/2xGold/Nidaros: galleons.
Uppsala: goat cheese stand. :cool:
All others: units (e.g., swords).

UNIT MOVES
To the Western Front. Alluvum totalus. :ar15::viking:

WORKER ACTIONS
London: mine hill, road S SW SW (eventually).
Ivory City (3 wkrs): mine hill, road to London, road to Carthage.
Timbuktu, Carthage: chop.
FP City: chop (1 wkr), mine Athen's hill (2 wkrs)
2xGold: chop
Nidaros: pre-chop.

CITY MM
Production.
Prepare Athens and Carthage for consecutive 2pop poprushes.
Prepare Timbuktu for 2pop poprush.

OTHERS
Research: Construction(2t).
Civic change: Police State + Slavery(T2)
Religion change: Nope.
Diplomatic actions: Solid communication.
Cities settled: In a manner of speaking.

COMMENTS
Construction will (probably) pay off because 1) we can do it in 2 turns, 2) we need time to prepare for poprushing, 3) bridge building (e.g., see Nidaros), 4) safety valve if 3rd AI has SoD in capital, 5) WEs cause less unit and supply costs, 6) klarius has spoken ;).

I'd kill the Arab warrior directly from the boat now. Otherwise he likely hides in the city and we have to kill them there. Don't promote the sword before so you have 2 promotions for healing.
Landing the other sword also should give good chances to get the city next turn. Precisely my plan, actually.

Don't pillage any more fishing nets :cry: . My sentiments exactly.I plan to capture Uppsala T1/T2, depending on the situation and have 13 units by Nidaros on T4, ready to attack on T5. The western circumnavigator sails T3. He may not even go too far west. We'll see.

I can take that, now that klarius has promised to not build forges and courthouses! :D


Well I'm not sure about forges. ;)
Athens and Carthage will grow so fast w/o specialists that they come practically for free. One more pop-rush, but also a happy from gold. The population is free as we otherwise just grow more and more red faces.
So it's not 180 hammers spent for 25% really.