Are you drunk? We haven't even researched hunting yet...

I knew something was wrong! Not enough beer :lol:

Anyway, you get may point, and if you dont, I'll join klarius and give you a proper spanking afterwards :D

Have you started playing yet? Good luck :hatsoff:

Have you started playing yet? Good luck :hatsoff:

One hour from now, unless LC comes up with a totally different plan... :)

One hour from now, unless LC comes up with a totally different plan... :)In fact we should build Rice SE and wait till Erkon's turnset to capture Carthage. Furthermore, we should build libraries in both FP City and Timbuktu. Actually, my new plan changes everything except for one single worker movement on your last turn. Of course, that one movement means that my plan is not totally different, so never mind. Just go with your plan... ;)

COme to think of it, why not build a library in TImbuktu? We could chop it. We've got some extra forests there, right? :lol:

In fact we should build Rice SE and wait till Erkon's turnset to capture Carthage. Furthermore, we should build libraries in both FP City and Timbuktu. Actually, my new plan changes everything except for one single worker movement on your last turn. Of course, that one movement means that my plan is not totally different, so never mind. Just go with your plan... ;)

COme to think of it, why not build a library in TImbuktu? We could chop it. We've got some extra forests there, right? :lol:

Lol!

Starting up now.

Turn 0, 535 BC:
Axe wins against barb warrior on mine N Timbuktu. 3.3/5 strength, 1 XP
MM Timbuktu for Chariot in 2t
Switch to Barracks in FP city
All the worker actions and unit moves according to plan
Slider to 0%, 4 gold, +4 gold/t

IBT: Enemies move as expected. Our warrior S Athens successfully defends against barb warrior. 6t to heal.

Turn 1, 520 BC:
Sailing in, Calendar in 22 turns
Lighthouse chopped in Athens, 13 hammers overflow
Chariot completed in London, defeats barb warrior, 1.2/4 strength :(
London starts on next chariot (2t)
Axe completed in Ivory city, switch to chariot (1t)
Timbuktu grows to pop6, MM for chariot in 1t, growth in 4t
0% research, 8 gold +3 gold/t

IBT: Barb Archer attacks our chariot SW Timbuktu. Chariot wins. :)

Turn 2, 505 BC:
Border pop at 2xGold
Chariot completed in Ivory city, start on chariot (5t)
Axe wins against Hannibals archer
Axe wins against Hannibals warrior
Chariot wins against barb warrior
No enemy units in sight anywhere! :)
Jeanne D'Arc born in Athens. :) I am going to make a medic III chariot out of her. We already have 6 units at less than 50 HP...
0% research, 11 gold +5 gold/t, Calendar in 24 turns (artist in 2xGold was bringing in 4 beakers)

IBT: Three new barbs spawn, warrior next to our worker SW of Athens, warrior next to horses at Ivory city, and archer N of Timbuktu.

Turn 3, 490 BC:
Athens grows, assigns fifth scientist. Worker temporarily retreats while axe comes running to take care of barb
Confucianism spreads in London! :)
London completes chariot, starts on Axe.
Carthage at size 10. Hereditary rule and lots of units?
0% research, 16 gold +1 gold/t, Calendar in 18 turns

IBT:

Turn 4, 475 BC:
Barb warrior killed on sheep, 2nd bar warrior spawns sse of Athens
0% research, 17 gold +1 gold/t, Calendar in 17 turns

IBT:
Unpromoted archer walks out from Carthage
Temple of Artemis BIDL (not in Carthage, not in GW/SH city)

Turn 5, 460 BC:
Pop growth in Ivory city, FP city, Timbuktu
Both chops for 2xGold granary finished
0% research, 18 gold +3 gold/t, Calendar in 16 turns

IBT:
Carthage poprushes for 3!
Our warrior on the ice S of Athens defends successfully against another barb warrior

Turn 6, 445 BC:
2xGold granary finished, start on trireme
0% research, 21 gold +2 gold/t, Calendar in 15 turns
Chariot has a look in Carthage...

168558
Three archers and three workers! But what did he poprush? A settler?

We can attack with 6 axes and 2 chariots in 2 turns. Or should we wait?

I haven't been keeping up but it sounds like you guys have a good plan. Good luck.

London has an axe with 11:hammers:. Will we forget it?

Nothing pillaged in Timbuktu??? :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

168558
Three archers and three workers! But what did he poprush? A settler?

We can attack with 6 axes and 2 chariots in 2 turns. Or should we wait?


Wait for what? Godot?

Save uploaded. Have a look.

Attaaaack!!!!
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:

Wait for what? Godot?

Hannibal just poprushed something big and the overflow might be enough to finish another archer, if we provoke him.

Then wait 1 turn I guess. That also moves his archer 1 tile further from Carthage, hopefully. But I think you still win against 4 won't you? They all unpromoted.

Btw, it's safe to run scientists in TImbuktu now.

I think he just poprushed a library. At least it looks like there is a library there now, and I his culture graph has been a straight line until now.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.I think we could put the damn thing to use...oh well...

Put him out of our misery.

Well, Hannibal has a shiny new, totally useless library.
Probably means he is building a settler in Utica as I can't imagine that he doesn't want more cities.

Not in Carthage then? Is there any point in not crossing the 2-tile border this turn?

Lets not rush anything here.

We have:
2 4XP axes (C1+cover)
2 2XP axes (C1)
2 green axes
1 C1 chariot (our Jeanne D'Arc)
1 green chariot
1 2.2/4 strength chariot, can be promoted to combat I, needs to move so it can be attacked by Hannibals loose archer

Against 3 green archers this is a sure win. Against 4, hmmm. Should work, right?

He can build everything if he built a library. If we enter this turn it's for sure an archer.
He will not pop-rush again soon, so if he gets the overflow on something else, he shouldn't complete an archer.

Edit:
To clarify:
Library has lower priority than needed settlers (and needed military).
The only reason to not build a settler, if needed, is because there is already one available or in production in another city.
If was in the state to build a library he could as well now start a wonder.

He can build everything if he built a library. If we enter this turn it's for sure an archer.
He will not pop-rush again soon, so if he gets the overflow on something else, he shouldn't complete an archer.

Then I guess it makes sense to wait one turn? If he anyway won't poprush it can't cost us anything, and we might get lucky if he puts the overflow into something else, or sends out one of the archers.

Decision: I will wait one turn before proceeding.

Continuing with the game now...

So wait 1 turn and go for it.

Turn 6, 445 BC, continued:
Barb city spotted up north by our workboat. About 8 tiles N of London, but not in any useful location as it is landlocked.

IBT:
At Carthage...
An archer leaves! It is now defended by only two archers!!! :)

Turn 7, 430 BC:
Moving in on Carthage.
Chops for Athens library completed.
Wheat farm completed (and yes, LC, I switched to work the wheat :))

IBT:
Carthage poprushes for 2 pop! :eek:

Turn 8, 415 BC:
Athens at 149/150 gpp.
Units in place next to Carthage, still 2 defenders.
Llibrary completed in Athens, switch to galley.
0% research, 22 gold, -1 gold/t, Calendar in 11t

IBT: A third archer appears in Carthage. The one that just left moves back, but is one turn late.

Turn 9, 400 BC:
Athens give birth to a....
Great Scientist!:)
Attack on Carthage begins....
Lose first axe
Win second axe :)
Lose third axe
Lose fourth axe
and...


Carthage is captured! We get 152 gold, a granary, a lighthouse, and three workers!


:woohoo: [party] :band: :banana: :viking:

Lost another chariot against the archer next to Carthage.
Research up to 40%, 173 gold, -27 gold/t, Calendar in 7t timed with the arrival of the first Athens worker on the banana at Timbuktu.


This seems like a good time to stop as we have lots to discuss. Save uploaded.

Good. Help keep those buggers off our backs.

Wheat farm completed (and yes, LC, I switched to work the wheat :))
Well, I wanted to make sure you had at least 1 little success this turnset... :goodjob:

Hooray!!! :egypt: :clap: :yumyum: :aargh: [pimp] :jesus: :rockon: :dance: :rotfl: :bday: :band: [party] :beer: :sheep: :bounce: :thanx: :agree: :stupid: [offtopic] :joke:

Nice! :goodjob:

In Athens we can work 3 scientists, gold and 2nd clams. Grow in 4 turns and then work 6 scientists. Timbuktu can start working at keast 1 scientist.

Gnejs, great action!

And since we all had very low expectations, it's a great achievement! :goodjob:

I just luuuv the score graph. :D

How many defenders did Hannibal have? It was three, yes? Report is a bit confusing on that point :mischief:

Gnejs, great action!

And since we all had very low expectations, it's a great achievement! :goodjob:

I just luuuv the score graph. :D

How many defenders did Hannibal have? It was three, yes? Report is a bit confusing on that point :mischief:

Yes, three defenders, plus a fourth archer on the FP cottage next to the city.

klarius, I guess you knowledge of how the AI works has its limits, despite many indications of the opposite. :eek: Hannibal did poprush once more. :)

Excellent turnset !! :goodjob:

I just wait to arrive home and to take a look onto save ... ;)


Barb city spotted up north by our workboat. About 8 tiles N of London, but not in any useful location as it is landlocked

No luxury or something connected ? Anyway - a good news ... we found a new unexpected source to fill our empty budget ... :)

What an exciting turnset, Gnejs! Well done!

How many units left for Utica? Are we thin in defenses against barbs in other cities? Are we paying for our units upkeep? What's the next city to pop a GS? Can we time it so that 2 GS are born in 2 consecutive turns? Oh, man, not being able to open the save is a pain!

What an exciting turnset, Gnejs! Well done!

How many units left for Utica? Are we thin in defenses against barbs in other cities? Are we paying for our units upkeep? What's the next city to pop a GS? Can we time it so that 2 GS are born in 2 consecutive turns? Oh, man, not being able to open the save is a pain!

We have 5 axes and 5 chariots within 5-6 turns from Utica, but we need to leave at least one as garrison in Carthage. And some of them need to heal. But nurse Jeanne is working on that.

Axe+warrior pair at each of London, Athens, Timbuktu. Only warriors at FP city and Ivory city. Some of those chariots might need to be diverted to cover.

-5 gold at 0% research, but this will become positive again within a few turns, because:
2xGold provides +7 commerce from T4
London can work a scientist/merchant from T5
FP city can work 3 scientists/merchants from T2
Carthage comes out of revolt on T5 and can work 2 specialists, 3 after border expansion. It will also bring in 9 raw commerce from working clams, village and lake.

Athens pops another GS in 17 turns at the current rate, so probably on T15 or T16 as we will be able to run an additional scientist soon. Timbuktu gp generation is on hold and should be micromanaged to have 299 gpp and +20 gpp/turn on the turn that Athens pops the next scientist. We then pop the third GS (hopefully not a prophet) on T23 or T24.


Why don't you get Warlords then? The Warlords GOTMs are anyway much more fun than the current BOTMs... ;)

In Athens we can work 3 scientists, gold and 2nd clams. Grow in 4 turns and then work 6 scientists. Timbuktu can start working at keast 1 scientist.

I agree, but it is even better to work 4 scientists instead of the gold. We get more gpp and might pop the second GS sooner that way.

Be careful with the scientists in Timbuktu. We are several turns early compared to schedule and should by all means avoid having more than 50 scientist-turns on T16. The safest is probably to grow to pop 9 with 56/57 food in the store, and then assign scientists and work mines (or even citizens) to reach the 297 gpp on T16 target with as much food left as possible. But we must have enough food to let us work 6 scientists at a food deficit from T17 to T25 - avoid growing to pop10 as this empties half the food store.

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!
3. With a 4th unit there would be no possible barb spawning in the FP City heartland.
4. Back-up plans for researching to Astro if we pop GS>GE>GP or GS>GS>GP. We're still on schedule to finish Astro during Murky's turn, aren't we Gnejs?

Thanks for the info!


Athens pops another GS in 17 turns at the current rate, so probably on T15 or T16 as we will be able to run an additional scientist soon. Timbuktu gp generation is on hold and should be micromanaged to have 299 gpp and +20 gpp/turn on the turn that Athens pops the next scientist. We then pop the third GS (hopefully not a prophet) on T23 or T24.

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.



Why don't you get Warlords then? The Warlords GOTMs are anyway much more fun than the current BOTMs... ;)
Are they? And why?

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!


Have we explored the islands yet?

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.Are you the re-incarnation of Moonsinger?!? This is really clever. Reminds me of one of her CivIII write-ups in which she says don't worry about war weariness (or starvation or whatever it was), at least those citizens will die happy... :lol:

What this might be, though, is an interesting way to maximize our chances of a GS in TImbuktu. (I find it hard to believe that throwing away 30+:food: per turn in Athens is worth the lost hammers in potential poprushing.

4. Back-up plans for researching to Astro if we pop GS>GE>GP or GS>GS>GP. We're still on schedule to finish Astro during Murky's turn, aren't we Gnejs?

Beaker count, revisited once more

Rest of Calendar 359
Metal Casting 803
IW 357
Construction 625
Compass 715
Machinery 1253
Optics 1072 (GS)
Astronomy (2 GS)

4051 beakers + 3 GS

On T23, we have generated a further
600 beakers from scientists in Timbuktu (will be at 36 beakers/t)
975 beakers from scientists in Athens (will be at 45-55 beakers/t)
231 beakers from gold mines at 2xGold (will be at 20 beakers/t)
378 beakers from scientists in FP city (will be at 18 beakers/t)
108 beakers from scientist in London (will be at 6 beakers/t)
150-200(?) beakers from specialists in Carthage (can be at 30? beakers/t)
150 beakers from deficit research

= 2600-2650 beakers, and 155-165 beakers per turn

So we get Astronomy on T32 at the latest unless we pop a GP in Timbuktu. GE in Athens is not a problem since it actually speeds us up with a turn (lightbulb Machinery instead of Optics)


Some options:
We could cash-chop three forests at Carthage for 321 gold, speeds up Astro with 2 turns.
We could cash-chop three forests at Ivory city for 321 gold, speeds up Astro with 2 turns.
We could put Construction at the end of the research queue, speeds up Astro by 4 turns.

Have we explored the islands yet?The workboat is now up in the Arctic and next turn goes left to see if that island connects to the Great Beyond. In 6 turns, we'll produce a workboat in Carthage for the Athens Clams and this can be followed in a turn or two by a trireme that scouts our East coast.

Gnejs, when does Athens pop the 4th GL? We should have our clam nets on T14.

1. Preparations for the Grand War. (What roads do we need? Should we build a port city at Spices SE?)
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!


IMHO it is important to build a WB/Trireme in Carthage in order to explore a little bit the area ... to gather enough informations. ;)

What if we discover an ennemy reachable by galleys only ( not to invade but at least to decide if we need another city on that part of the continent ) ? :rolleyes:

My little concern - our finance are too thin ... it is possible to take in consideration the need to build/chop a courthouse in Athens for example ? :mischief:

Regards

P.S. : What technology will be lightbulbed by the GS from Athens now ? :confused:

Looks like the game will get pretty boring the next few turn-sets :D:goodjob:.

For Athens, I think best is to grow in 2 with only 2 scientists, then work 6.
Same amount of scientists turns after 4 turns but a few more coins.

As production isn't critical currently, we should better work the cottage instead of the mined hill w/o commerce in London.

I think we should still go lightly on burning through our bank roll. Carthage should grow a bit first with max food instead of working specialists, so will be a big drag to the economy when out of resistance.

Can someone do the exact calculation (or provide me wiht the info needed to perform such a calculation). I'd like to see fast growth first, maximum number of scientist assigned while steadily loosing food, when food=0, assign all pop as scientistss, losing one pop to starvation a turn. How early can we get the next GS?
After that, calculate if Timbuctu can keep up with that rythm and be at 299 the turn Athens pops. If not, maybe spare the life of 1 of Athens inhabitants.
After those 2 calculations are done, we can compare different options starving less people to have more people available for whipping, and decide a compromise between early Astro and pop available for whipping units.

This is roughly the plan already in Timbuktu (using up the food deficit). But as we are looking at continuing research for up to ten turns after popping the third GS we need to balance GP generation with sustainable research.

Here are some figures for you.

Timbuktu pop8, 37/54 food, can work:
farmed rice 5f, farmed banana 4f, banana 3f, endless number of 2f tiles
banana plantation on unfarmed tile on T11, plantation on farmed tile on T17
115 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Oracle

Athens pop8, 37/54 food can work:
fish 6f, clam 5f, sheep 5f, clam 3f (5f from T16), gold mine (0f), copper (1f), bunch of 2f tiles
16 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Pyramids

Are they? And why?

More challenging difficulties? Just an impression I have, don't know if it is true...

Gnejs, when does Athens pop the 4th GL? We should have our clam nets on T14.

Too late. ;) Around T41 if using 7 scientists, but with a risk of a then useless GE. We will self-research the second half of Astronomy around T37 or so if we continue in research-mode.

Looks like the game will get pretty boring the next few turn-sets :D:goodjob:.

For Athens, I think best is to grow in 2 with only 2 scientists, then work 6.
Same amount of scientists turns after 4 turns but a few more coins.

As production isn't critical currently, we should better work the cottage instead of the mined hill w/o commerce in London.

I think we should still go lightly on burning through our bank roll. Carthage should grow a bit first with max food instead of working specialists, so will be a big drag to the economy when out of resistance.

Good idea on Athens.

No, Carthage contributes positively from turn one. The maintenance is 7.62 gold. Working the clam (2g) + village (4g) + city tile(1g) + lake (2g) + 2 artists (4 beakers each) gives 9 commerce and 8 beakers. A net gain of almost 10...

Some things I'd like us to discuss:
2. Using 3 units, I think we can entirely or almost entirely de-fog the coast from Carthage to the end of the Earth at Anarctica, meaning no barb galley spawning for our clam nets!A picture for jesusin!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_SW_coast_defog.JPG

Carthage is must better if we can work the 2 seafood and the village. THen at pop6 it's working 3 scientists, pop7, 4 scientists. Can you try that variation out, Gnejs? Does it take too long to grow the pop?

Carthage is must better if we can work the 2 seafood and the village. THen at pop6 it's working 3 scientists, pop7, 4 scientists. Can you try that variation out, Gnejs? Does it take too long to grow the pop?

This is what I had in mind:

Border pop using 2 artists on T7, go max growth +11 food/t
pop6 on T11
pop7 on T14
pop8 on T16, work 5 scientists = 210 beakers on T23, +30 beakers/t

All the time it is bringing in more commerce than the maintenance cost.


Workers chop a WB on T5, cash-chop three forests around T8-9, prechop another 4 forests until ~T15, do whatever (maybe improve the spice)

I agree with Mitiu. I'd like to see a trireme out of Carthage immediately after the wb. FOr protection of our nets and a bit of exploration. Now that we've finished Sailng, the barbs will research it faster if they haven't already finished it. It would be ridiculous for us to allow those nets to get pillaged.

Gnejs, I have a request. Would you please check your saves from 1750bc, 1780bc. I'd really like to know if we can see Ragnar's borders before his 2nd culutral expansion. It will give us a fairly precise idea of where his capital is, how many tiles away, and possibly whether it's landlocked. If we can go from Spice Peninsula into his capital in 1 move with our galleons (after we capture it), then we save 1 turn movement cost for our units moving inland.

I think defogging the wb's path to Athens is slightly higher priority than capturing Utica, although both are vital asap. We need to know that we're not sending that wb to his doom. The warrior in FP City can defog Zone 2. Another unit Zone 3, and the warrior by the furs Zone 1.

That said, it would be nice to capture Utica before the 1st cultural expansion.

A few other remarks.
I think we shouldn't bother with fogbusting. Just leave the units in our culture to save support and kill what's coming on. Shouldn't be that much anyway as the barb city needs it's garrison.
We should research IW after calendar. Then look if we can easily access iron, otherwise do construction (and hunting :lol:) fast. We really need the ability to build some stronger units fast, so we have already something to fill our first ships. I would also disband our warriors once we have enough other units. I don't see us having the money to upgrade them.

I think we shouldn't bother with fogbusting. Just leave the units in our culture to save support and kill what's coming on.I completely agree as far as fogbusting N and E is concerned, but I think it's foolhardy to not defog the coast between Athens and Carthage. Unless you're planning to devote a galley to the Athens SE clams and a trireme to Carthage. We should also have a trireme protecting the NW Athens seafood, for that matter. And a galley up by 2xGold.

Gnejs, I have a request. Would you please check your saves from 1750bc, 1780bc. I'd really like to know if we can see Ragnar's borders before his 2nd culutral expansion. It will give us a fairly precise idea of where his capital is, how many tiles away, and possibly whether it's landlocked. If we can go from Spice Peninsula into his capital in 1 move with our galleons (after we capture it), then we save 1 turn movement cost for our units moving inland.

I only have saves from 1930 BC and 1660 BC... :(

klarius, I guess you knowledge of how the AI works has its limits, despite many indications of the opposite. :eek: Hannibal did poprush once more. :)
Well, the function do_hurry() is only about 400 lines of code :).
Further investigation :scan: shows that he can pop-rush one pop if there is no net unhappy population (and this was probably so due to HR) and the build is essential (a combat unit while in danger qualifies as essential), even so there is still pop-rush :mad:.
This is, BTW, different from vanilla, where there is never a pop-rush when there is still pop-rush :mad:.

I only have saves from 1930 BC and 1660 BC... :(Oh yeah, I forgot that you have a crash-proof computer... :crazyeye:. I save every turn, for strategic reasons. Neve know when there might be useful info...

EDIT: Saving the file is also a way to not hit <enter> too soon. GIves you a chance to re-think...

This is roughly the plan already in Timbuktu (using up the food deficit). But as we are looking at continuing research for up to ten turns after popping the third GS we need to balance GP generation with sustainable research.

Here are some figures for you.

Timbuktu pop8, 37/54 food, can work:
farmed rice 5f, farmed banana 4f, banana 3f, endless number of 2f tiles
banana plantation on unfarmed tile on T11, plantation on farmed tile on T17
115 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Oracle

Athens pop8, 37/54 food can work:
fish 6f, clam 5f, sheep 5f, clam 3f (5f from T16), gold mine (0f), copper (1f), bunch of 2f tiles
16 gpp, +2 gpp/t from Pyramids



Thank you, I'll have a look. Since out bottleneck is not GPP but research, it makes no sense to starve pop unless we need to know if we have got a GS or a GP soon enough to react.

What do we do if we pop a GP? Farm yet another GS? Research by hand?

Should we use our GS on Optics before knowing if the Timbuctu one is a GS or a GP?

Here's my (flawed?) analysis of where Ragnar's capital might be.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_Ragnar_nexus.JPG


If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)). But we don't know if it's landlocked. If it's not, our galleons will be able to enter his city even without the circumnavigation bonus. So we might want to consider building a city at Spice SE or Spice, roading to the Spice SE tile, and having units prepared to embark from there. That seems like the fastest way to launch our attack. If we have a couple of galleys and the cash to upgrade them or poprush a couple galleons from there, then we can attack almost immediately. Maybe we consider chopping the two forests there into an almost finished galley-turned-galleon?

Edit: Of course, this may not be his capital, but a a second city, but I doubt it, because where would it get the culture from? VIkings have no culture ... :lol: Now if it's Asoka or someone else...

Thank you, I'll have a look. Since out bottleneck is not GPP but research, it makes no sense to starve pop unless we need to know if we have got a GS or a GP soon enough to react.

What do we do if we pop a GP? Farm yet another GS? Research by hand?

Should we use our GS on Optics before knowing if the Timbuctu one is a GS or a GP?

If we pop a GP we can research the missing beakers by hand until T37. Farming another GS is no good because it comes later (T41 earliest) and has a risk of being yet another GE or GP.

No, we save both our great persons from Athens until the third one is popped in Timbuktu. Unless the second one from Athens is a GE, in which case we use it for machinery.

Another small idea:
We could hand-build aqueduct-hanging gardens in London.
Due to confucius this should work in about 20 turns. We get part of the hammers invested back by the additional pop to rush. But the main idea would be that we have some more potential scientists (at slight starvation) in several cities in case we have to self research more than we like :(.

Here's my (flawed?) analysis of where Ragnar's capital might be.

...

If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)). But we don't know if it's landlocked. If it's not, our galleons will be able to enter his city even without the circumnavigation bonus. ...

Are you referting refarting to this post? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348231&postcount=775)

Are you refarting to this post? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348231&postcount=775)Yes, of course.

If we could (edited) see Ragnar's culture before his second cultural expansion, then his capital is at location #4, and not landlocked (Gnejs didn't save the file, so we don't know... (sigh)).

From what I remember, I looked at those tiles by zooming in. I was looking for waves, but didn't see any. But I did see something smooth, which it turned out was the cultural border. I should have zoomed out and not in! :)

Anyway, my point is that I think I did this on the turn the warrior revealed those tiles. That would mean that the cultural borders were there already then. Now, LC, it is for you to figure out exactly which turn this was... :)

Another small idea:
We could hand-build aqueduct-hanging gardens in London.
Due to confucius this should work in about 20 turns. We get part of the hammers invested back by the additional pop to rush. But the main idea would be that we have some more potential scientists (at slight starvation) in several cities in case we have to self research more than we like :(.London also has 4 forests that should contribute 36*2.25=81:hammers: each to the Hanging Gardens, if we can spare the worker.

Anyway, my point is that I think I did this on the turn the warrior revealed those tiles. That would mean that the cultural borders were there already then. Now, LC, it is for you to figure out exactly which turn this was... :)In that case, I believe his capital had not expanded the second time and it's located at #4 and is not land-locked. Now we'll see if I'm wrong, as usual.

Workers chop a WB on T5, cash-chop three forests around T8-9, prechop another 4 forests until ~T15, do whatever (maybe improve the spice)Carthage. I'm thinking we should:
1. Chop wb from the roaded forest (done T6)
2. Chop trireme (done T8 because 1 worker has to help 1 turn on wb chop), overflow into walls if not too much.
3. Triple chop walls
4. Pasture horses and mine copper (before these workers leave forever, we want these tiles as a back-up. Sooner or later they always come in handy)

Golden Walls at Stone City

After our 8 workers do their various assignments, we could assign one to making war access roads around 2xGold,the other 7 could start chopping the Golden Walls of the Seven Winds at Stone CIty for 749:commerce: finishing on T29. If we don't need the money to finish our research we can use it to upgrade galleys to galleons.

On second thought, it probably makes more sense to do walls at Carthage, Ivory CIty and London.

Golden Walls at Stone City

After our 8 workers do their various assignments, we could assign one to making war access roads around 2xGold,the other 7 could start chopping the Golden Walls of the Seven Winds at Stone CIty for 749:commerce: finishing on T29. If we don't need the money to finish our research we can use it to upgrade galleys to galleons.

On second thought, it probably makes more sense to do walls at Carthage, Ivory CIty and London.

By T29 it will be too late, because at 100% research those 750 gold are going to last too long. No, Stone city makes perfect sense if we chop units there. Initial investment: one settler, whipped somewhere (Timbuktu?). Return: 10*44*1.25 = 550 hammers of units.

On the other hand, once we reach the final stages of the game where nothing built on our home continent can reach the front in time, I am all for organizing a gigantic chop fest somewhere. Just to show that it can be done. :)

Galleons poprushed in Athens are 3 turns from the front (that we know of), 2 turns from 2xGOld. Galleys upgraded, are 2 turns from London's or 2xGOld's cultural tiles, 1 turn from either Spice City location. If you poprush galleons in 2xGold and Athens, they're done on T1 and T3, unless you kill an extra citizen to do it. That means you have this schedule:

T0: Astronomy finished, Revolt to slavery
T1: partial galleys switch to galleon builds and are poprushed to completion
T2: 1 galleon each in Athens, 2xGold.
T3: Units #1,2,3 can attack from sea (for the sake of argument).
T4: Units #4,5,6 can attack from sea.
T4: 1 galleon each in Athens, 2xGold.
T6: Units #7,8,9 can attack from sea.
T7: Units # 10,11,12, can attack from sea.

On the other hand, with SPice city and 620:gold: to upgrade 4 galleys, your schedule is:
T0: Astronomy complete.
T0: 4 galleys parked in Spice City Cultural zone upgraded to galleons, loaded with units.
T1: Units #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 can attack from sea.

So, I would advocate having X galleys, 3X units, and 155X:gold: available on the turn we complete Astronomy, preferably at SPice City, or alternatively at 2xGold/London.

Admit it, Gnejs, your wife thinks you're a cute builder. :p

Builder? Where did you get that idea? :p

Back on topic. I would rather have 6 war elephants launched from Gold city and 6 war elephants launched from Carthage. First city captured is whipped for more units as soon as it comes out of revolt, while the two galleons double back for a second load.

Why do you like WEs so much? They're dogmeat versus spearmen. 6 WE's @ 90:hammers: = 540:hammers:. I can have 5 swords and 4 cats for the same price. The swords are done sooner (because we get IW much sooner). I don't need to switch to slavery. Two loads get there from Spice City a lot faster and the cats have a turn to do some damage.

Carthage is another story. Not sure how to crack that nut.

In any case, whatI'm seeing is that with these 8 workers, it's a serious strateigc question right now what we want to do with them. Should the 3 in 2xGOld build connecting roads before going elsewhere?

GOT IT!

We don't know if the AI will have spears, and there wont be many inside the cities. We need a mix of units of course (swords, axes, WE and cats).

And we don't need to launch our first attack from sea. We declare and land. The AI may whip IBT but won't produce the unit. On second turn we attack. No need to hurry. What is important is when the last AI is defeated. Perhaps we want a caravel to scout the seas asap (always avoiding contact with AI). We need to know roughly where the AI's are located.

What is also important is that we land two loads of units at once to ensure military superiority. We need at least two galleons on each coast, but then we will be unit limited i.e. if we build one unit / turn, the four galleons can move three turns = 12 tiles before they need to return and reload.

Perhaps we want a caravel to scout the seas asap (always avoiding contact with AI).

Optics is the next but last tech we research and Astro will be lightbulbed. We will likely discover them on the same turn. Is there any point in building any caravels?

Optics is the next but last tech we research and Astro will be lightbulbed. We will likely discover them on the same turn. Is there any point in building any caravels?

Yes, if the third GP is a GP :D Then we can launch the caravel 7-8 turns ahead, giving us the circumnavigate and the location of the AI. Could be cheaper to upgrade to two caravels and get circum earlier. Better to have 4 galleons sailing 5 tiles, than 5 sailing 4 tiles, yes? Anyway, we'll sort this out when we're getting closer.

What we do need to start planning is how we're going to get all those units before astro is reached. Perhaps we don't need to upgrade many ships? If we whip Athens + 2xGold + Carthage, and upgrade one old ship, we'll have the four we need.

The gold can then be used to fund unit upkeep if we start building units in London right away? Perhaps a stone settler first?

Yes, if the third GP is a GP :D Then we can launch the caravel 7-8 turns ahead, giving us the circumnavigate and the location of the AI.

No, if the third GP is a GP we self research Optics and use the two we have to bulb Astronomy.

What we do need to start planning is how we're going to get all those units before astro is reached. Perhaps we don't need to upgrade many ships? If we whip Athens + 2xGold + Carthage, and upgrade one old ship, we'll have the four we need.

The gold can then be used to fund unit upkeep if we start building units in London right away? Perhaps a stone settler first?

If we burn all ships, literally speaking, and whip all our cities down to pop1, how many hammers will this give us? If it gets us enough units to win the game then we don't need much planning. Just tech to Astro asap.:whipped:

We're something like 42% of the world population. I think it's pretty risky poprushing down to pop1 blind, especially if we can build an army of swords in advance, and that army ought to be plenty effective against archers.

I look at a couple things differently than both of you. First, I don't think 4 galleons is anywhere close to enough, unless all the AIs are really close. We want galleons for chaining our units. So 3 galleons in a chain means we need to produce 3 units every two turns.

I'm also thinking why use caravels for circumnavigation if we get galleons at the same time. Two galleons will circumnavigate 33% faster than 2 caravels and when they get to the farthest point, assuming there is an AI there somewhere, we'll already have the last 1-2 links in the galleon chain in place.

If it turns out all three AIs are really close, then we just use the galleons for transport and circumnavigation is unneeded anyway. That's something we'll find out pretty fast, if it's that way.

One more thing. There's a really good reason to focus our first attack on Ragnar. His first city or two will be pretty close to our capital. Relatively low maintenance.

And one more thing. Having a two-pronged attack, like we had a three-pronged attack in teh last SG, is of questionable success. CFR whipped our a$$e$ with a one-pronged attack.

Timbuktu banana plantations
Making the eastern plantations first gives us a few more bushels, even though they're done a turn later. Unless you want those workers to end up in the east for some reason, its' beter to start there.

EDIT: If Utica's borders expand or if the barbs settle that river, Carthage will be cut off from our resources. Defogging the east coast up to TImbuktu AND connecting it to the river on teh east side will reconnect Carthage. This is relevant to the banana workers because they'll get a free turn to road that tile on the way to the eastern bananas (if we work iprove them first).

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW - to be updated
Raze Utica and defeat Hannibal. Long term focus is to learn Astro asap and ensure we have a suitable amount of units at that time.

CITY BUILDS
London: Barracks (T2), Chariot(T5), worker (T11)
Timbuktu: Barracks
Ivory City: Barracks (T5), worker (T12)
FP City: Barracks (T15)
2xGold: Galley
Athens: Galley
Carthage: WB, Galley, Walls Not so sure about the walls though :confused:

UNIT MOVES
Maintain barb defense while sending units to Utica. Prepare fog busting along south coast. Carthage galley explores east, then north.

WORKER ACTIONS
2xGold: Complete gold mine and pasture on T3. Mine second gold. Pasture worker starts roading.
Carthage: Chop 6 forests. First goes into wb, second two goes into trireme with overflow into walls. Final three chops goes into Golden WallsTM

CITY MM
Athens: run 2 scientists and grow in 2 turns. Then run 6 scientists at stagnant. GS expected to pop T16.
Timbuktu: run 3 scientists and grow in 9 turns.
London: Switch from mine to cottage. Grow in 4 turns.
Ivory City: Assign next citizen to grassland/plains forest to maximize food while not sacrificing completion turn of worker.

OTHERS
Research: Calendar (T6-7), Iron Working (T11)
Civic change - none
Religion change - none
Diplomatic actions - yeah right
Cities settled - none

The PPP is based on the following long term strategy:
Keep Timbuktu at size 9 to enable starvation while running scientists.
We don't need construction or hunting. We attack with swords and axes. Cats are for builders.
We don't build any triremes, and we don't any more than these two galleys. These can be upgraded to galleons together with the three rushed galleons, giving us room for 15 units in our initial attack.
We will switch to Slavery & Police state when astro is finished.
We send the two navies and land the units next to large cities, which we keep.
Astro target = ~T29 (35 AD)

London's next build is a good question.

We will have 63 tiles to circumnavigate. Two galleons will do that in 8 turns, minimum. I don't see any point in building triremes or caravels, actually. Caravels are slower than galleons and useless once they've circumnavigated.

Carthage chops a galley after the wb and we protect our eastern nets with the three units defogging the Athens coast and a couple of warriors on those islands.

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left...:(

On units, maybe we should skip Construction altogether and just build swords. As we are charismatic they will be CR3 in no time.

Another suggestion: when Hannibal has been taken care of you should send a chariot up north-east. There might be more land than we have suspected there.

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left...:(

...

I'm a bit ill, and I didn't have the energy today to write the PPP. Hopefully I can do it tomorrow. :(

That is a very elaborate plan you have so far, Erkon. ;)

I am packing up for a two-week vacation. Leaving Monday morning. At this rate of planning I guess there will be no turnset until I have left returned :lol:...:(

On units, maybe we should skip Construction altogether and just build swords. As we are charismatic they will be CR3 in no time.

Another suggestion: when Hannibal has been taken care of you should send a chariot up north-east. There might be more land than we have suspected there.I think catapults will be a great help, but we wouldn't have to research construction before astronomy.

Gnejs, how strong are you on sending galleons both directions? I was thinking we should send a galley out of Carthage asap to see if we spot any culture squares out there in the oceanic fog, before committing ourselves.

I'm a bit ill, and I didn't have the energy today to write the PPP. Hopefully I can do it tomorrow. :(

I hope you get better. The team needs its captain to put all the blame on him

I hope you get better. The team needs its captain to put all the blame on him

jesusin, thank you for your concern! You deserve a good spanking in GOTM27!

PPP updated, will update again later.

CITY MM
Athens: run 4 scientists and grow in 4 turns. Then run 6 scientists at stagnant. GS expected to pop T16.
Timbuktu: run 3 scientists and grow in 9 turns.



OTHERS
Research: Calendar (T6), Hunting (T8), Iron Working (T13 - klarius TS)


How many gpp in Timbuktu on T16, and how much food?
Did you see klarius suggestion to grow in 2 turns in Athens?
What are the thoughts behind Hunting?

How many gpp in Timbuktu on T16, and how much food?
Did you see klarius suggestion to grow in 2 turns in Athens?
What are the thoughts behind Hunting?

Timbuktu will pop a GP on T17 if we run 3 scientists. East banana is planted on T11, west banana on T17. Pop9 reached on T9. Pop10 reached on T17. From T17 we can run 7 scientists for -3:food: for 8 turns without loosing pop. GS popped on ~T25.

I wrote the PPP without taking too much influence from the peanut gallery, but klarius is correct, we'll get 8 more :commerce:

We will run into happiness problems with Timbuktu at pop10 (we're at pop8 now). We're not getting spice or dye online in time, but the worker from Ivory City can camp the ivory on ~T17. Also, Ivory City will not reach it's potential until the 3 ivory is camped.

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

Athens
At 40% research slider, the net effect of 2 scientists for 2 turns versus 4 for 4 is that Athens produces +2:science:, +2:commerce:, and -2:food: (not considering any maintenance changes for the +1 pop, if any). Those -2:food: have the following possible consequences:

After we net the clams, if we want to grow to pop10, no consequences. If we want to grow to pop11, the 2-scientist variation is 1 turn later.

Note that we definitely want to work the gold rather than a scientist after we have popped the GL, because it gives us 2x production of our galleys.

Ivory City
We will get the happiness bonus as soon as we research hunting--we settled on ivory.

CITY BUILDS
Ivory City: Barracks (T5), worker (T12)

WORKER ACTIONS
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]2xGold: Complete gold mine and pasture on T3. Mine second gold. Pasture worker goes to camp ivory.
In Ivory City, see if you can maximize growth toward pop5 while getting that worker out just as fast.

WORKER ACTIONS
I keep asking about roads connecting 2xGold to our production centers. The response I keep getting: Deafening silence. Do you all feel we don't need the roads or what? Am I an idiot? What gives?

Timbuktu will pop a GP on T17 if we run 3 scientists. East banana is planted on T11, west banana on T17. Pop9 reached on T9. Pop10 reached on T17. From T17 we can run 7 scientists for -3:food: for 8 turns without loosing pop. GS popped on ~T25.

I wrote the PPP without taking too much influence from the peanut gallery, but klarius is correct, we'll get 8 more :commerce:

We will run into happiness problems with Timbuktu at pop10 (we're at pop8 now). We're not getting spice or dye online in time, but the worker from Ivory City can camp the ivory on ~T17. Also, Ivory City will not reach it's potential until the 3 ivory is camped.

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

Something seems off in your calculations. If Timbuktu is at 297 gpp on turn 16, and you run 7 scientists + oracle thereafter for 7*3+2=23 gpp/t you/klarius will hit 450 gpp already on turn 23. It might be possible to starve Athens a bit and save a turn in both cities...


Edit: I also think it is better not to grow to pop 10. By stopping at 56/57 food at size 9 you can run 6 scientists almost indefinitely, and even seven for ~9 turns. You can also work some mines while halting growth.

LC, thanks for the input, I'll see how it will all fit in my plans.

Regarding roads: are we planning to use 2xGold as a port? It makes sense to send units from Ivory City there, but we can send those units via London as well, no?

I'll see if I can plan a bit of road-working.

WORKER ACTIONS
I keep asking about roads connecting 2xGold to our production centers. The response I keep getting: Deafening silence. Do you all feel we don't need the roads or what? Am I an idiot? What gives?

<Whistle, whistle> ;)

Yeah, we have some roads to build, and they need to be in place so as not to delay the first armada. Is it necessary to build them already now?

I think catapults will be a great help, but we wouldn't have to research construction before astronomy.

Gnejs, how strong are you on sending galleons both directions? I was thinking we should send a galley out of Carthage asap to see if we spot any culture squares out there in the oceanic fog, before committing ourselves.

We definitely want to send the units built in Carthage to the east, but maybe it is enough to send a smaller force first.

<Whistle, whistle> ;)

Yeah, we have some roads to build, and they need to be in place so as not to delay the first armada. Is it necessary to build them already now?Which ones? Do we even need to connect 2xGold to London? WHat do we connect Ivory City to? London? 2xGold via the south route?

Maybe it's enough to connec the 2xGold south route to FP City and Ivroy and connect Ivory to London?

What are you guys thinking? If we can decide on what roads we're going to want, then we can see if it makes sense to build any of those roads, in passing, right now.

The worker at the 2xGold pasture will arrive in Ivory too soon to camp the ivory. Shoudl he build a road or should he just pre-chop?

Or is this all just a basic difference in war strategy between you (Gnejs) and me? I don't see us poprushing our production centers to death. I see us having galleon chains to the war zone and a steady stream of units arriving.

Let's not forget one huge advantage of galleons (as CFR used their galleys): sea vessels aren't slowed down in enemy territory. Land units go painfully slowly, but galleons will just hop from one coastal city to the next. Which brings me to the second view I have of our war plans. I see us having a bunch of cats running ahead of our troops, bashing down walls (which is why I would have preferred to put the GG in Ivory City--so we'd only need four double-promoted cats to zero out the city defenses).

EDIT: one possible solution is to plant the dye at London instead of researching hunting...

I'd prefer that solution, if worker turns are not sorely needed.

Or is this all just a basic difference in war strategy between you (Gnejs) and me? I don't see us poprushing our production centers to death. I see us having galleon chains to the war zone and a steady stream of units arriving.

Let's not forget one huge advantage of galleons (as CFR used their galleys): sea vessels aren't slowed down in enemy territory. Land units go painfully slowly, but galleons will just hop from one coastal city to the next. Which brings me to the second view I have of our war plans. I see us having a bunch of cats running ahead of our troops, bashing down walls (which is why I would have preferred to put the GG in Ivory City--so we'd only need four double-promoted cats to zero out the city defenses).

I see us poprushing our home continent to death. Or almost, it can be nice to keep enough citizens to work all high-food tiles and poprush again 5 turns later. Rinse and repeat until we have racked up 5-6 in whip unhappiness, then just whip them down to pop1. Say that we can whip 40 pop that way, that could be 8 galleons and 24 swords or so, plus the units we manage to build in advance, plus those we can chop using all our workers. We also keep all larger cities that we capture, and poprush these too.

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.

I see us poprushing our home continent to death. Or almost, it can be nice to keep enough citizens to work all high-food tiles and poprush again 5 turns later. Rinse and repeat until we have racked up 5-6 in whip unhappiness, then just whip them down to pop1. Say that we can whip 40 pop that way, that could be 8 galleons and 24 swords or so, plus the units we manage to build in advance, plus those we can chop using all our workers. We also keep all larger cities that we capture, and poprush these too.

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.Talk about numbres not adding up... :crazyeye:. I see:

3 galleons = 360h/45 = pop8
3 swords = 180h/45 = pop4

8 galleons = 8/3 * pop8 = ~pop21
24 swords = 8*3 = 8 * pop4 = pop32

Total needed pop53 + pop7 (can't poprush to pop0) = pop60.

Estimated population in 30 turns = ~pop54

--------------------------

Athens at pop10>pop1 = 3 galleons, 1 sword
Carthage at pop10>pop1 = 3 galleons, 1 sword
2xGold pop6>pop1 = 1 galleon, 1.5 swords

TImbuktu pop10>pop1 = 7 swords
London pop7>pop1 = 4.5 swords
Ivory City pop5>pop1 = 3 swords
FP City pop6>pop1 = 4 swords

7 galleons, 22 swords and every city is at pop1.

So your numbers are close except for leaving population to work food tiles.

Okay, Gnejs, I guess I see what you're saying. I think we want to make as many swords in advance as possible. Then upgrade/poprush an appropriate number of galleons. The rest of our population then remains to produce more of both, either by hand or by poprushing.

The one part of your plan I don't get, though, is how we're going to pay our maintenance costs without any citizens working commerce tiles.

Talk about numbres not adding up... :crazyeye:. I see:


Forgot about Police State? :)

Okay, Gnejs, I guess I see what you're saying. I think we want to make as many swords in advance as possible. Then upgrade/poprush an appropriate number of galleons. The rest of our population then remains to produce more of both, either by hand or by poprushing.

The one part of your plan I don't get, though, is how we're going to pay our maintenance costs without any citizens working commerce tiles.

I don't have an answer to that either. Cash-chop? Loot from taking cities?:dunno:

We didn't need any cats in the last succession game. Are you sure we would need them now? Ok, I can see the point in one or two suicide cats per AI capital but bombardement in advance sounds like some form of slower campaign than I had in mind.

:eek: I am all ears :eek:
In my own games I always do that form of dragging campaign: wait for healing, bombard defenses to 0, suicide 2-5 cats, mop up with elep/swo/mace, rinse and repeat.

How many swords per archer in 40% defenses city? And if 60%? Won't we bring the odd Axe?

I don't have an answer to that either. Cash-chop? Loot from taking cities?:dunno:

What about whipping only citizens that produce less than 10 points?
1 :food:= 4Points
1 :hammers:= 2Points
1 :commerce:= 1Point


EDIT: "10" is just an example, could be 12, for example. Maybe the value of :hammers: and :food: should decay with time.

Forgot about Police State? :)Sheesh.

2 turns revolt. 7 turns poprushing (4 poprushes). Planning to start our war pre-Modern Age? :crazyeye:

PPP updated again. Please notify if I've missed anything.

We can perhaps wait with the discussion regarding swords/axes/WE/cats until after my TS?

I plan to play until we learn IW to find out the location of any iron. That may take 10 or 11 turns.

If I'm feeling good enough, and you agree to the PPP, I plan to play tomorrow night (in ~24 hours)

:eek: I am all ears :eek:
In my own games I always do that form of dragging campaign: wait for healing, bombard defenses to 0, suicide 2-5 cats, mop up with elep/swo/mace, rinse and repeat.

How many swords per archer in 40% defenses city? And if 60%? Won't we bring the odd Axe?

If you attack a superior enemy, you need to progress slowly and keep your troops alive. Suiciding with more than one cat is a sign that the enemy is tough.

Archer bonus on hill: 50% for city, 25%+25% for hill, 25% garrison + 40% culture = 165 + first strike
Sword = 30% city attack.
Archer strength vs sword = 3 + 135% = 7 + FS vs 6

We will loose one sword for each archer on average.

The military campaign we're facing in this game is very different from "normal" games. The AI will probably have IW, but not necessarily Alphabet i.e. they're pretty primitive. Furthermore, and what is most important, they don't expect to be attacked. It is thus crucial that the galleons unload the units the same turn we declare. Due care must be afforded to ensure that we don't stumble onto an AI mid turn.

There are three different ways I fight wars in Civ. The first is when the AI attacks me. Most times I am prepared. Not the case here. The second way is when I have to attack an AI that is running away in tech. I normally don't have superior numbers, and I can't wait to accumulate enough units that I want. Again, not the case here. The third way is when I can plan (sometimes 100 turns in advance). In these occasions, I have enough units to swarm the AI, blockade reinforcements and these wars typically go very swift. I use multiple fronts to reduce the turns my units are moving within enemy borders. The AI will also have to split up the active defenses, which reduces the risk for counter attacks.

What about whipping only citizens that produce less than 10 points?
1 :food:= 4Points
1 :hammers:= 2Points
1 :commerce:= 1Point


EDIT: "10" is just an example, could be 12, for example. Maybe the value of :hammers: and :food: should decay with time.

We need to agree on a proper whipping limit for each city, and the points above seams reasonable.

Erkon, regarding your turnset.
- I wonder if we really care about the granary in London.
- Will we have enough chariots to protect our cities (Athens, London, TImbuktu, Carthage, Ivory/FPCity) against barb axes? Later swords will gain XP against barb warriors and archers, but not against the axes, obviously.
- The Carthage wall chops would be completed at or just after the end of your turnset. I'm skeptical that we're going to finish our research on time without golden walls in Carthage and even another city or two.
- Are you planning to defog the coast above and beloow Carthage? A barb galley can come out of nowhere pretty fast.

Initial Attack on Ragnar

If we're planning to surprise attack him, I think we should plan to do that with pre-built swords/axes and upgraded galleons. Otherwise we are wasting almost an entire turnset to launch our invasion.

Here is one possibility for our war roads, with possible worker actions. This plan assumes we do not research construction (bridge building). Galleons with 4-5 tile movement are much faster than land travel.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_400bc_war_road_plan.JPG

My calculations show that if we maintain productive cities, we can produce at least 3 swords every 2 turns, excluding Carthage. That means a galleon chain would be fully utilized.

Implications for Erkon's turnset and beyond
- possible worker road actions
- we need as many galleys to upgrade as possible (not only for galleon chain, but also to send two out for finding AIs and circumnavigation asap)
- we may want to get London and Ivory City raw production up to 20:hammers: per turn (= 25h/t w/Police State). (I'm guessing Ivory City will have iron on its barren hill.)
- crank out swords asap

AI City Analysis

Currently the world population is 79, ours is 36. Utica is 2, so the remaining 3 AIs have pop41. Three unknown cities total pop22. That leaves pop19. Assuming (arbitrarily) that each AI has a second city of pop4, that leaves pop7 left over. That would be a maximum of 13 cities split up between the AIs. About 4 each. I suppose we'll have to capture a maximum of 7 cities each. At 2 archers (minimum) per city, that's 42 suicided swords.

24 starting swords plus whatever we poprush and chop new in captured capitals may not be enough.

PPP updated

Erkon, regarding your turnset.
- I wonder if we really care about the granary in London.
- Will we have enough chariots to protect our cities (Athens, London, TImbuktu, Carthage, Ivory/FPCity) against barb axes? Later swords will gain XP against barb warriors and archers, but not against the axes, obviously.
- The Carthage wall chops would be completed at or just after the end of your turnset. I'm skeptical that we're going to finish our research on time without golden walls in Carthage and even another city or two.
- Are you planning to defog the coast above and beloow Carthage? A barb galley can come out of nowhere pretty fast.

- Granary replaced with Chariot.
- I will move the London axe to Ivory City. That leaves only FP city vulnerable. If the . .. .. .. . really hits the fan, we have to upgrade the warrior to axe for 110 gold. As soon as Utica is gone, we will have enough units to guard us. I am aware of the weak defenses Gnejs left me with (man, that guy is horny on Capitals...)
- I choice to build the Golden Wall in Carthage can be made late in the TS, since we can cancel the chop and end up with pre-chopped forests.
- Actually, I don't see much reason to fog-bust far away from our nets. As we learned from SGOTM5, the barb ships does not follow the coast in one direction, but move back and forth instead. And they don't spawn that often. And I can't do much about it in my TS. The only loose unit I have is the warrior in Antarctica. And he will move along up NE to check what's there.

Initial Attack on Ragnar

If we're planning to surprise attack him, I think we should plan to do that with pre-built swords/axes and upgraded galleons. Otherwise we are wasting almost an entire turnset to launch our invasion.

Yes, I want us to start building the units right away i.e. in klarius TS when we have connected the iron. We just have to agree on how many galleys will we upgrade. As it is now, the GP's will pop before we have learned the prerequisites. Which means we will have no funds to upgrade with. But this is not a big problem actually. As I see it, the galleon chain will not be used at once. All available ships will be used in the first landings i.e. all ships move to the destination. Then we can establish the chain. The finance of the end game is worrying. We don't have much of a plan. Loot from captured cities and wall chops may not be enough for upgrading galleys.

Here is one possibility for our war roads, with possible worker actions. This plan assumes we do not research construction (bridge building). Galleons with 4-5 tile movement are much faster than land travel.
...
My calculations show that if we maintain productive cities, we can produce at least 3 swords every 2 turns, excluding Carthage. That means a galleon chain would be fully utilized.

Implications for Erkon's turnset and beyond
- possible worker road actions
- we need as many galleys to upgrade as possible (not only for galleon chain, but also to send two out for finding AIs and circumnavigation asap)
- we may want to get London and Ivory City raw production up to 20:hammers: per turn (= 25h/t w/Police State). (I'm guessing Ivory City will have iron on its barren hill.)
- crank out swords asap

Timbuktu has three more turns to 2xGold compared to Ivory City, and Carthage has four more turns. So we could send all units west. OTOH, we could of course build three swords in Carthage and one galleon, and send it east to meet up with the end point of the galleon chain and by doing that extend the galleon chain. We will then get the circumnavigate. Carthage can then repeat that action...

Regarding our military production: we will build more than three swords / turn, which means the bottleneck will be galleons. How can we solve this if we don't have the funds to upgrade galleys?

- Actually, I don't see much reason to fog-bust far away from our nets. As we learned from SGOTM5, the barb ships does not follow the coast in one direction, but move back and forth instead. And they don't spawn that often. And I can't do much about it in my TS. The only loose unit I have is the warrior in Antarctica. And he will move along up NE to check what's there.I'm thinking mostly toward the end of your turnset, after you've captured Utica. Just something to keep in mind. The idea is to prevent the spawning, not have to scramble to defend and hope. Once it has spawned, it's a permanent thorn in our side, unless we build a useless trireme.
We just have to agree on how many galleys will we upgrade. As it is now, the GP's will pop before we have learned the prerequisites. Which means we will have no funds to upgrade with. But this is not a big problem actually. As I see it, the galleon chain will not be used at once. All available ships will be used in the first landings i.e. all ships move to the destination. Then we can establish the chain. The finance of the end game is worrying. We don't have much of a plan. Loot from captured cities and wall chops may not be enough for upgrading galleys.I agree. Sequence:
0. BUild as many swords in advance as possible.
1. Upgrade 3-5 galleons. 1 at Carthage, the rest at London/2xGold.
2. Capture Ragnar's first city AND send galleons in each direction for exploration, circumnavigation, rape, and plunder.
3. Revolt 2 turns and do our poprushing while Ragnar's city comes out of resistance.
4. Continue on.

So:
- by the time we get to the end of klarius' turnset, we'll be able ot determine whether it makes sense to delay Astro for a turn or two while accumulating cash to upgrade galleons, or just burn the 2 turns on a revolt.
- we can also keep making galleons. Our workers will eventually become idle and can chop golden walls in most of our cities, if need be.
- the chain comes into play after Ragnar, if ever. We don't know if the AIs are on seperate land masses. But the galleons will still be useful for speeding up troop movement, no matter what.
Timbuktu OTOH, we could of course build three swords in Carthage and one galleon, and send it east to meet up with the end point of the galleon chain and by doing that extend the galleon chain. We will then get the circumnavigate. Carthage can then repeat that action...This is an excellent idea. This way we might achieve 3 goals in one: exploration, circumnavigation, and transport/capture of a smaller city, all with just one galleon and 3 swords.
Regarding our military production: we will build more than three swords / turn, which means the bottleneck will be galleons. How can we solve this if we don't have the funds to upgrade galleys?Not sure how you calculated that many units per turn, but the more the merrier. I don't expect us to have all that many galleys to upgrade (4-5 max).

In addition to finances, the other problem with Gnejs' Plan, as I see it, is the time cities need to come out of resistance. The sooner we capture Ragnar's first city, the sooner it comes out of resistance (while we THEN do the 2-turn revolt and any poprushing).

...
Not sure how you calculated that many units per turn, but the more the merrier. I don't expect us to have all that many galleys to upgrade (4-5 max).
...

A two-pop whip will generate 2 swords in addition to normal production. We don't have to whip the cities to size 1, but perhaps size 5 (for timbuktu, athens and carthage)?

What I wanted to point out that we have to balance the production of land units with the production of galleons in a similar way of balancing the delay of astro with the upgrading of galleys. Nothing groundbreaking, but something to consider.

Does anyone have any comments regarding my PPP?

Does anyone have any comments regarding my PPP?
Just get it under way. :)
It will not change that much if a bit MM is changed.
And the longer term planning might change quite a bit, if we get problems with either GP or lacking iron.

Just get it under way. :)
It will not change that much if a bit MM is changed.
And the longer term planning might change quite a bit, if we get problems with either GP or lacking iron.

Good. I'll play tonight. Sorry for the delay :blush:

Sorry for the delay :blush:I'm not. Better safe than (later) sorry.

The discussion has given us a fairly clear idea of where we going and idiocies to avoid, so we're well prepared for the unknowns ahead. And speaking of lacking iron, a safer bet would be to build a settler in London next. Then we're covered. The settler could always be saved for Stone City Golden Walls later, or units. Any good reason why we should risk no iron?

Turn set report 400 BC - 250 BC

400 BC - T0
MM according to PPP

IBT: 1 million souls. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

385 BC - T1
London axe is moving towards Ivory City to defend.

IBT: Prophet BIFAL. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

370 BC - T2
Assign 6 scientists in Athens. Calendar in 4 turns, which is one turn early, even at 0% research. Should have run 0% from T0.

IBT: Warrior in Antarctica defeats archer. Hannibal archer moves 1NW.

355 BC - T3
Athens celebrates "We love Erkon Day". Saves us a bunch of coins. Moving Athens axe two tiles towards FP City for dual duty.

IBT: Hannibal archers moves towards FP City.

340 BC - T4
Units two tiles from Utica, still only two archers. The citizens in Athens decide to work for free another turn to honor Erkon the Great.

IBT: Barb archer turns up SW of Athens. If I return with the axe, FP city is in danger of the Hannibal archer. OTOH, if Utica falls next turn, that archer will disband. So, what to do?

325 BC - T5
Carthage out of revolt. Provides 10:commerce: net minus added maintenance in other cities. Still, it's earning us gold right away. Barb activity is increasing. Barb warrior next to eastern banana will delay plantation :-(

IBT: Still only 2 archers in Utica :D. Barbs advance towards Timbuktu. We have to sacrifice the northern mine I think.

310 BC - T6
Carthage border expands. We can MM a bit for IW in 4 turns. Battle against Utica commence. Lost 3 axes, RNG-gods must be displeased. Hannibal defeated. Save uploaded.

PS: I razed Utica. We could have kept it for chopping walls (5 forests), but it would have cost us ~5 gpt to keep. Don't know if I did the right thing.

Mid TS Log: Here is your Session Turn Log from 400 BC to 310 BC:

Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.70)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.55)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 31.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (5.70)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.61)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 67.4%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (61/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (41/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (21/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (1/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.99)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 69.5%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (0.05)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 140, 400 BC: You have captured Carthage!!!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.00)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Chariot!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.62)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 140, 400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 27 (27/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 400 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!

Turn 141, 385 BC: St. Peter (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 142, 370 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.30)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Combat Odds: 38.0%
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 142, 370 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 143, 355 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 143, 355 BC: Athens celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 144, 340 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ivory City!
Turn 144, 340 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 144, 340 BC: FP City will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 144, 340 BC: Carthage's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 145, 325 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 145, 325 BC: The enemy has been spotted near FP City!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Carthage.
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 145, 325 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 145, 325 BC: FP City has grown to size 6
Turn 145, 325 BC: The borders of Carthage have expanded!

Turn 146, 310 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The enemy has been spotted near FP City!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 20.7%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (6.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.98)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 67.8%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (63/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (23/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (3/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.32)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 65.3%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (45/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (26/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Your Jeanne d'Arc has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have captured Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The Carthaginian Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have destroyed the city of Utica!!!

Please advice how to proceed with a) getting Iron Working in 4 turns instead of 5, and b) citizen allocation for Carthage. I'll play then next 4-5 turns in an hour.

IBT: Timbuktu mine lost. Another warrior approaches from the west.

295 BC - T7
Timbuktu plantation delayed two turns due to barb interference. Research kept at 0%, running 2 scientists in FP City and one in Carthage. London keeps working cottage. I think that the goldmine at 2xGold will do the trick the last turn...

IBT: Barb movements

280 BC - T8
Anti-barb movements. Plantation started.

IBT: The AIs are growing real fast. Pop increase is significant.

265 BC - T9
I'm running 3 extra scientists at Timbuktu at starvation. Next turn we can run none and regain the lost food. End result: IW next turn while still running 0% research.

IBT: Parthenon built

250 BC - T10
I've reset Timbuktu to zero scientist. Next turn we can increase back to 3. Shall we run scientists in Carthage and/or FP-city? BTW, we have access to IRON :banana:. Under 2xGold :lol:

Save uploaded.

Second part of log:Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 20.7%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (6.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (6.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.98)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 67.8%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (63/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (23/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (3/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Hannibal's Archer (4.32)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 65.3%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (45/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (26/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) (4.40) vs Hannibal's Archer (1.75)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 146, 310 BC: Churchill's Jeanne d'Arc (Chariot) has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have captured Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: The Carthaginian Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have destroyed the city of Utica!!!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have trained a Galley in Carthage. Work has now begun on a Walls.

Turn 147, 295 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Combat Odds: 98.5%
Turn 147, 295 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 147, 295 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 147, 295 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 147, 295 BC: Timbuktu will grow to size 9 on the next turn

Turn 148, 280 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 148, 280 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.53)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.30)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (22/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Timbuktu has grown to size 9
Turn 148, 280 BC: 2XGold City has grown to size 4
Turn 148, 280 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 149, 265 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 149, 265 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 149, 265 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 149, 265 BC: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near FP City!
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near 2XGold City!
Turn 149, 265 BC: Carthage will grow to size 6 on the next turn

Summary: Build barracks and chariot in London, barracks in Ivory City. WB and Galley in Carthage. Killed a bunch of barbarians. Razed Utica (lost 3 low experience axes, final kill with d'Arc, our heroine :D). Learned Calendar and IW, Iron connected.

PS: klarius, there a barb archer west of London. Don't miss it...

Capital job so far, Captain Erkon! Free at last!!!

One way would be to research at 10% and switch the London cottage to a scientist and the Carthage forest/hill to a scientist.

Please send a chariot ahead of the workboat so it doesn't get ambushed. I would still thoroughly fogbust SW and NE of Carthage, so the galley can freely explore all the way up the coast. I'm assuming (haven't carefully checked) you have enough units to do that and defend. FP City doesn't need a garrison, for example, just a chariot. A chariot could replace the warrior at Athens SE, etc.

LC, thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do to get IW in 4 turns and get a better distribution of our units.

PS: did you notice that I lost one worker turn at 2xGold?

LC, thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can do to get IW in 4 turns and get a better distribution of our units.

PS: did you notice that I lost one worker turn at 2xGold?...and don't forget to discover plenty of iron. :cool:

No I hadn't noticed. How did that happen? The gold mine will be done ahead of pop4 anyway, so I don't see any problems.

Summary: Build barracks and chariot in London, barracks in Ivory City. WB and Galley in Carthage. Killed a bunch of barbarians. Razed Utica (lost 3 low experience axes, final kill with d'Arc, our heroine :D). Learned Calendar and IW, Iron connected.


Excellent !! :goodjob:

Very good news - two techs and another ennemy buried in the history book .... :p
I also like the fact that you built few barrack too. ;)

Looks nice.
I had just a short look (not enough for a detailed planning ;)).
We could get the GS 1 turn faster in Athens at the cost of 15 food. That would match nicer with Timbuktu (don't really like the delay there working not so hot tiles). Do we want that?

Science should be metal casting in case we get a GE in Athens. No need to let it sit around for an extended time.

I would rather chop lighthouse in 2xG. That's only 1 food, but makes quite a difference in this city. Question is also what to build there at all. More galleys than the one in production are not beneficial, IMO.
Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?

Barracks or unpromoted units until astronomy?

Barracks will give or not experience to Naval Units ( not sure about this - but I don't belive so ... ) ?
Personally I'd like to have a barrack built there first. :)

One more observation - I'm absolutely sure that CRC team finnished the game already ( it's already >2 weeks and no new save uploaded ) so probably should take care about their finnish-date ... ;)

Regards

I think we need to make a couple of major decisions before klarius plays.1. Do we poprush to death or poprush some and plan for a continual flow of swords/galleons?
2. How much do we want to facilitate our research/galleon-upgrading with golden walls?It matters now.
- Do we research hunting in 1 turn and the worker(s) in Ivory City immediately begin making ivory camps.
- In London, do we make plantations or hill mines?
- Do we make iron and gold mines in FP City, while those two workers are there?
- Do we mine the plains hill in Athens?
- Do we allocate 5 workers to Ivory City and chop 500+ golden walls pronto?
- Does 2xGold need a lighthouse (or barracks) or not?

Continual flow of swords/galleons with Police State
- London worker makes two hill mines and London produces 25h/t.
- Ivory City with 3 ivory camps produces 21h/t.
- FP City with iron mine gold mine produces 15h/t.
- Athens could produce 20h/t.
- Carthage could produce 20h/t.
- 2xGOld could produce 15 or 17h/t.
These cities would also be generating lots of gold for our economy.

Golden Wall Possibilities
- Ivory City could chop 5 forests for +500g golden walls.
- 1E of Erkon's Wall Chop City could chop as many as 9 forests for golden walls and then work iron and copper to produce units for almost 900g.
- Stone City could chop 10 forests (we have 10 workers) for golden walls and then work horses and stone for units.
- Gold City North could chop 10 forests and at pop3 work 2 gold mines.
* Both Stone and Gold CIty N could be left to the barbs if we wanted to abandon them.
* London, TImbuktu, or Carthage could chop a settler.

A 1000g Golden Walls Bonanza on about T20 would either protect us from not getting 3 GS's or give us cash to upgrade galleons.

Poprush-to-death scenario
If this is what we decide to do, then we want to get to Astro absolutely ASAP because there's not much else to do before then. I think we should build a 3-chop Golden Walls in Carthage, then a 5-chop GOlden Walls in Ivory City, then a 10-chop Golden Walls in Stone City or Gold City N, with a settler chopped in London.

Continual Flow Scenario
This one's a bit more complicated--lots of worker decisions to make. Maybe like this:

FP City/Athens: 1 worker builds iron, gold mines in FP City, then plains/hill mine in Athens.
London: 1 worker builds 2 hill mines.
Carthage: 3 workers chop golden walls, then 2 go to Ivory City, 1 stays to build copper mine, horse pasture.
Ivory City: 3 workers build 3 ivory camps until 2 workers arrive from Carthage, then 5 chop golden walls.
Timbuktu: 2 workers build banana plantations, then chop settler for Erkon's Wall Chop City.
Wall Chop City: All 10 workers go to Wall CHop City to chop the Great Golden Wall.

The worker turns don't add up just right, but something like that.

We could get the GS 1 turn faster in Athens at the cost of 15 food. That would match nicer with Timbuktu (don't really like the