And I look forward to see if LC-the-builder will excel in warfare as well. :cool:Warfare is just building death.

A point about builds in Athens and Carthage:
Don't just stay on the current builds. Put 1 turn into 2 different builds that can be pop-rushed for 2+ pop on turn 1 in slavery. At least a sword in both cities with low hammers.
Both cities would be unhappy already now w/o representation bonus. That will get worse with war weariness if we stay at this high pop.

I would currently don't get a western circumnavigation under way. We already know that we have 2 civs on an island nearby and we have to get a lot troops on this continent. I would rather have a city-city ship chain 2XG to Nidaros established first. As there are no roads W of London, loading there isn't that attractive.
And rather have a road London 2XG (which is nearly finished anyway). With construction (get over that in 2, please) that's a short walk only.

In hindsight, LC and I should've swapped turns but oh well...

LC looks like he has a solid plan so good luck. :goodjob:

In hindsight, LC and I should've swapped turns but oh well...

LC looks like he has a solid plan so good luck. :goodjob:We're good. This way I get to have fun exploring with teh galleons and taking out a city or 10!

We're good. This way I get to have fun exploring with teh galleons and taking out a city or 10!

I have no doubt that you'll do us proud. My comment was based on the idea that you're better at carrying out the MM plans than I am. Anyone can plow through a stupid AI's lightly guarded cities.

In hindsight, LC and I should've swapped turns but oh well...

LC looks like he has a solid plan so good luck. :goodjob:

I like it too - with a little bit luck we could finish very fast ! ;)


Both cities would be unhappy already now w/o representation bonus. That will get worse with war weariness if we stay at this high pop.


Unhappines could became a problem - which is the plan for it ?

Ignore it ? Whip until our hands will turn red ? Rely on happiness resources from newly conquered cities ? Research Drama ? :rolleyes:

I would currently don't get a western circumnavigation under way. We already know that we have 2 civs on an island nearby and we have to get a lot troops on this continent. I would rather have a city-city ship chain 2XG to Nidaros established first. As there are no roads W of London, loading there isn't that attractive.I agree. My first priority is chaining units to the AIs. I will let a galleon slip off when I see more galleons coming out the pipe line.

I plan to play 5 turns tomorrow morning. That is, in about 14 hours or so, unless someone asks otherwise.

Rant mode on:

WTF, there are TWO galleons next to enemy lands, but only three units! :eek: Murky, where are the other three? You left five in the homeland :cry: How are we going to beat the AI if we don't bring the units? :confused: We better shape up on the logistics, else this will not be as easy as we think...

Nidaros doesn't look fun at all. We will probably loose 4-5 swords against these two defenders, with a high risk of loosing one without making a dent on that axe, and another 1.5 for each archer. That's why it's so damned important to land with one huge stack and utilize the surprise attack. And Ragnar will bring in reinforcements from the west. If we are very, very lucky, Ragnar will send the axe into the open. If we just had a mix of units. How come you guys never listen to me?...

Rant mode off:

Murky, it looks good. Let's see what LC can do with this :D

LC, regarding your silly remark about warfare and building death: did you really expect me to react on that? :eek:

You freekin' builder thinks MM is difficult! Hah! Who just won Wimp of the Weak award, Mr Peace-monger!!! Don't tell me warfare is simple :mad: :aargh: :mad: :aargh: :mad: :aargh:

MM is fun

Warfare is simple

Rant mode on:

WTF, there are TWO galleons next to enemy lands, but only three units! :eek: Murky, where are the other three? You left five in the homeland :cry: How are we going to beat the AI if we don't bring the units? :confused: We better shape up on the logistics, else this will not be as easy as we think...

Nidaros doesn't look fun at all. We will probably loose 4-5 swords against these two defenders, with a high risk of loosing one without making a dent on that axe, and another 1.5 for each archer. That's why it's so damned important to land with one huge stack and utilize the surprise attack. And Ragnar will bring in reinforcements from the west. If we are very, very lucky, Ragnar will send the axe into the open. If we just had a mix of units. How come you guys never listen to me?...

Rant mode off:

Murky, it looks good. Let's see what LC can do with this :D

LC, regarding your silly remark about warfare and building death: did you really expect me to react on that? :eek:

You freekin' builder thinks MM is difficult! Hah! Who just won Wimp of the Weak award, Mr Peace-monger!!! Don't tell me warfare is simple :mad: :aargh: :mad: :aargh: :mad: :aargh:

The reason for the empty Galleon is because it was going to be used for circumnavigation instead of landing troops. I didn't intend to start the war yet, but the way the AW works caught me by surprise. I thought you had to be closer to gain the war status and it ended-up setting off the AW flag anyway. Since we're already at war, I loaded up the swords to move on Ragnar before he had a chance to respond. Saladin's warrior just happened to be there for some odd reason or else we wouldn't even know about him yet. I think we should mix in some axes with the swords for the bigger city. The two swords off the boat should be able to kill the warrior and take Uppsala. LC should be able to have enough units to fill all 3 Galleons by the time they make it back.

There is no chance at all that the axe is leaving.
The only explanation that he has only axe and sword is that the axe is upgraded from an early city defense warrior, so it's his only city defense unit currently.
Even if he builds an archer now he will want to keep 2 city defense units in the city, now that he knows us. And while there are our units around even the attack sword (which is also an extremely tough unit in this city) will not leave.

But we really want to get Nidaros fast, even at high losses. His other cities might currently hand-build an additional archer, but after that it will be swords as long as he has iron. And swords finish faster :crazyeye:, because these will probably get pop-rushed.

If you look at the demographics, the following population distribution can be extracted:

AI.1 - 578 000 citizens
AI.2 - 484 000 citizens
AI.3 - 287 000 citizens

Since this page is updated instantaneous, we know this to be an exact snapshot of the situation, which is different from the %-figures from the Victory page that is one turn delayed.

Ragnar had 18% last turn, but we had 47.54%. Now we have 58 out of 117, which is 49.57%. This means that the total pop was 122 last time (58/122=0.4754). That means Ragnar has 18% of 122 = 22 pop. The only configuration of city pop that both matches the Victory screen, the map and the Demographics is:
1 size 1 => ...1 000
2 size 2 => 2x 6 000
2 size 4 => 2x48 000
1 size 9 => .469 000

One configuration that matches Saladin is:
1 size 1 => ..1 000
1 size 2 => ..6 000
1 size 4 => .48 000
1 size 7 => 232 000

This would leave 23 pop to AI.2, which would fit well with:
1 size 2 => ...6 000
2 size 4 => 2x48 000
1 size 6 => .150 000 (capital)
1 size 7 => .232 000

There may be other configurations that match the data, so this is only an example of what we face right now:

15 cities with the following population distribution:
2 size 1
4 size 2
5 size 4
1 size 6
2 size 7
1 size 9

Revisiting the Battle Plan.
One question before I play. I see two viable options. One is Uppsala>Nidaros, as described above by klarius. Another would focus on Nidaros for now, specifically, focus on preventing back-ups coming from other cities. The two swords in the galleon could disembark on the same forest hill and all three could go to pillage the roads (2 tiles worth) between Nidaros and the rest of his empire while waiting for our reinforcements.

This also has the possible effect of drawing out an attack sword, since it will have an advantage against our swords. This is also good, because it's to our advantage to exchange sword for sword with Ragnar out in the open rather than lose two swords for each of his by attacking his city.

-------------------------

I think I prefer taking out Uppsala asap, especially since it has pop4 and can already poprush swords. In this case, I can try offering up a sword as bait. (I don't see any point in offering up worker bait until I get an axe for the counter-attack.) The next boatload of units can maybe go pillage the roads.

Personally I'm also in favor to raze Uppsala asap and after this focus on Nidaros.

Or - if our exploring-galleons will found something "interesting" to attack ... like a costal city with a strategic-resource in its cross ... ;)

Good luck !!

Okay, I made a mistake in my calculations yesterday.

I can have 13 units attacking Nidaros on T6, not T5. Including losing one at Uppsala.

Or, I can have 11 units attacking Nidaros on T4, but that's without attacking Uppsala.

klarius, if Nidaros only gains units by building/poprushing, how many defenders total on T4 and T6, by your best estimate?

Okay, I made a mistake in my calculations yesterday.

I can have 13 units attacking Nidaros on T6, not T5. Including losing one at Uppsala.

Or, I can have 11 units attacking Nidaros on T4, but that's without attacking Uppsala.

klarius, if Nidaros only gains units by building/poprushing, how many defenders total on T4 and T6, by your best estimate?
Well, I would say 3-4 on T4. Very likely 4, but probably not more T6. That's assuming we don't let reinforcements in. BTW reinforcements will usually not be swords, but city defenders - could be archers :) or another upgraded axe :eek:. But this means you can block them - they will not attack even at good chances.

Okay, I'll play about 5 turns this afternoon.

The next boatload of units can maybe go pillage the roads.
Why pillage roads ? These are soon our roads :D.

Another idea:
Should we do archery in 1 turn. If we meet more swords and axes a few crossbows would be nice to have.

Okay, I made a mistake in my calculations yesterday.

I can have 13 units attacking Nidaros on T6, not T5. Including losing one at Uppsala.

Or, I can have 11 units attacking Nidaros on T4, but that's without attacking Uppsala.

klarius, if Nidaros only gains units by building/poprushing, how many defenders total on T4 and T6, by your best estimate?

Nidaros is a much more important target than Uppsala, and the faster, the better. Delaying Nidaros two turns => delay final conquest two turns. We can skip Uppsala until the end of the game. Focus on the quickest route, don't spend any time on secondary targets.

11 units on T4 will be enough to kill 4 defenders. Just make sure you station the units to prevent external reinforcements.

Another idea:
Should we do archery in 1 turn. If we meet more swords and axes a few crossbows would be nice to have.

klarius, don't tell me that we have teched to construction for better pop-rushing when archery would have done the job :eek: :cry:

Why pillage roads ? These are soon our roads :D.Yes. After looking again, I realize there's only one road in and our swords could be on it. No need to pillage it.

Another idea:
Should we do archery in 1 turn. If we meet more swords and axes a few crossbows would be nice to have.Should I give you a choice...? :lol: I want to kill at least ten cities during my turn, not research ten techs. :p

Nidaros is a much more important target than Uppsala, and the faster, the better. Delaying Nidaros two turns => delay final conquest two turns. We can skip Uppsala until the end of the game. Focus on the quickest route, don't spend any time on secondary targets.

11 units on T4 will be enough to kill 4 defenders. Just make sure you station the units to prevent external reinforcements.Right. Myabe I'll put one more sword on the hill for a sword/pair roadblock and the other will gain experience teaching Saladin to stay out of our lands.

Okay, I'm starting...

Brilliant Idea klarius! I'd go with the Crossbows for dealing with Ragnar's melee.

T0
Set everything up as planned, then switch to Archery at the last minute, so I can start building a Xbow next turn... :crazyeye:. Land 1 more unit on forest hill and attack Sall warrior with other, winning with 1.8 damage. Two turns to heal after promotions.

I/T: No new units in Nidaros, Uppsala

T1
Archery done. Construction in 2 turns. Start a Xbow in Ivory, etc. MOve two swords NW to forest and spot a Viking archer cmoing to rescue Nidaros. Still 2 turns away, but will be able to slide by my swords. I'll attack him on the plain next turn, if he tries...

I/T: new spearman in Uppsala; new sword in Nidaros; archer moves to north of swords

T2
Our sword takes out archer, 1 turn to heal. We will have 2 CRII swords but one at 5.8/6 on T4.

I/T: No new units for Ragnar. Still hasn't poprushed Nidaros...!!!

T3
Construction finished. Revolt to Police State and Slavery. Anarchy 2 turns. 11 units breathing down Nidaros' throat.

T4
Because warfare builds death and I am a builder, I have now builtIn addition to the two CRII swords in the previous two turns, two CRIII swordswhile killing a CI axe, a CI sword, and a CII swordat a cost of merely three CRI swordsand have builtMurkaros!!!

I/T zzzzzz......

T5
hit <enter>, out of revolt, explored more with the eastern galleon, still no sighting of 3rd AI,uploaded save

Here is your Session Turn Log from 95 AD to 170 AD:Turn 173, 95 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Saladin's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Combat Odds: 95.8%
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Saladin's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Saladin's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Saladin's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Saladin's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Warrior!
Turn 173, 95 AD: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 173, 95 AD: London celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 173, 95 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in 2XGold City. Work has now begun on a Galleon.

Turn 175, 125 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Archer (3.00)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 175, 125 AD: Ragnar's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Ragnar's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Ragnar's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Ragnar's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 175, 125 AD: The borders of Athens have expanded!

Turn 176, 140 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 176, 140 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Swordsman (4.61)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Combat Odds: 72.8%
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Swordsman!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Axeman (2.43)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Your Chariot has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Ivory City.
Turn 176, 140 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill adopts Police State!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Churchill adopts Slavery!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Hinduism has spread in Carthage.

Turn 177, 155 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Axeman (11.50)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 1.1%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman has defeated Churchill's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has died trying to attack a Axeman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Swordsman (10.80)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman has defeated Churchill's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has died trying to attack a Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Swordsman (10.20)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Axeman (8.28)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 20.8%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 15 (57/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 15 (42/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 15 (27/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 15 (12/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman has defeated Churchill's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has died trying to attack a Axeman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Swordsman (7.56)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 36.2%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 16 (54/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 16 (38/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 16 (22/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 16 (6/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (5.76) vs Ragnar's Axeman (1.23)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Axeman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: You have captured Nidaros!!!
Turn 177, 155 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Ahhh ... this is a real way to create the so-called "Civ-suspanse", no ? :crazyeye:

Come on! Give us good news!!!

The idea of killing the viking fishermen was to prevent him from pop-rushing while the Galleons returned for more troops. klarius, do you know what the code looks like for AI pop-rushing. Is there anything to do with food available for regrowth in that?

Sweet, LC! Rock'n Roll!!

klarius, do you know what the code looks like for AI pop-rushing. Is there anything to do with food available for regrowth in that?
Only cities very low in food will not be pop-rushed. Nidaros definitely isn't in that category, even w/o nets.

FIRST DRAFT: Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW -- Turns 5-10
Capture (raze?) Jerusalem Haithabu and another city or 2. Establish galleon chain to Saladin. Complete circumnavigation. Locate 3rd AI. Pump out units.

BUILD QUEUE
Athens/2xGold/Murkaros/Carthage: galleons. We need at least 8 galleons for a 2X chain.
All others: units.

UNIT MOVES
To the Western Front. Alluvum totalus. :ar15::viking:

WORKER ACTIONS
London: road S SW SW.
Ivory City, Timbuktu, Carthage, Athens, FP City, 2xGold: chop.
Murkaros: pre-chop (do we lose hammers finishing chops during resistance?).

CITY MM
Production.
Limited poprushes in Athens, Carthage, Timbuktu.

OTHERS
Research: Monarchy at 0%.
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Diplomatic actions: Keep knocking on neighbors' doors with the noble intent to vassalize... ;)
Cities settled: Be delighted to.

COMMENTS
Plan to play tomorrow morning. ~14+ hours from now.

A little help for jesusin:

World view 170 AD:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_170ad_World_view.JPG

Murkaros and Ragnar's Desert:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_170ad_Murkaros.JPG

The next Viking city looks like a Drojf.
We may want to keep it for that.

I'm not so sure about galleon in Murkaros.
In CIV my experience is that ship chains aren't that effective and you frequently have them optimally running only when you have already won. We have no idea up to now how much inland moving we have to do.
So I would rather build units first and let them hoof it. Galleons (in Murkaros) only when we for sure cannot do by the home production.

No need to pre-chop, the hammers are nicely stored for any build you want.

The next Viking city looks like a Drojf.
We may want to keep it for that.

I'm not so sure about galleon in Murkaros.
In CIV my experience is that ship chains aren't that effective and you frequently have them optimally running only when you have already won. We have no idea up to now how much inland moving we have to do.
So I would rather build units first and let them hoof it. Galleons (in Murkaros) only when we for sure cannot do by the home production.

No need to pre-chop, the hammers are nicely stored for any build you want.I'm thinking my first move will be a sword or chariot 1W to the hill. From there we could see a lot of what Haithabu Drojf has. I should be able to capture in on T2, I think. Maybe I should do that now and post a screenshot? It would be nice not having to wait to ask you guys tomorrow.

We won't have to decide about the Murkaros build during my turnset anyway. By then, we'll hopefully know. We can now see Sal's 3 biggest cultural cities and his land is only 18%, less than what Ragnar had before, so I'm doubting there's a lot inland. In any case, at a five-to-one move ratio, seafaring is almost better for this map. I think we're on the big continent.

Well played LC. :goodjob:

So where to go to next?

LC - great capture!

I cant see any reason NOT to rush for 2 pop in Carthage, Timbuktu, Athens and FP City. Then you whip 2 pop more in Carthage and upgrade the galley. In four-five turns you can send the galleon east with sword+axe+crossbow. Timbuktu can also be whipped once more for two pop soon. Likewise Athens.

Only Athens need to build Galleons. We will have 7 Galleons in 5 turns. 2xGold/Murkaros/Carthage build LAND UNITS, no stinkeen ships...

Does anyone know how the imports/exports number are related? If you add the numbers and divide by three, it will only make sense if one AI has 0/0 trade. That would also fit with us being second rank, yes?

Which means that the last AI is isolated. Which means that LC MUST ensure not to stumble into the border. Check every move for the cultural tile in world view! We don't want to trigger the war-mode. The fastest way to finish this game is to land LOTS of units the same turn we declare and capture a bunch of cities on the next turn. Don't listen to jesusin-I-dont-like-warlords ;)

Which means that the last AI is isolated. Which means that LC MUST ensure not to stumble into the border. Check every move for the cultural tile in world view!This is exactly what I have been doing. ;)Only Athens need to build Galleons. We will have 7 Galleons in 5 turns. 2xGold/Murkaros/Carthage build LAND UNITS, no stinkeen ships...We don't want to trigger the war-mode. The fastest way to finish this game is to land LOTS of units the same turn we declare and capture a bunch of cities on the next turn... with:no stinkeen ships...no stinkeen ships...Just like last SG when we hadno stinkeen roads...right?

Like hell I'm not building ships. :p

Look, I'm chopping like crazy. We're going to be flooded with units by Mitiu's turnset. If we can't transport 3 units per turn, we're just diddling our twiddlers.

EDIT: Calculations for the next 6 turns:
4 galleons (+1 upgraded, money permitting)
15 swords (or equivalent)
2 xbows

In other words, we'll produce almost 3 units/turn in addition to the 4 galleons, so our unit production will only increase after we stop building galleons. I doubt 9 galleons will be enough to handle our production.

The end-game should just be optimizing troop production, troop movement and conquest of the AI's cities. Produce, Move, Conquer...

...
Like hell I'm not building ships. :p

Look, I'm chopping like crazy. We're going to be flooded with units by Mitiu's turnset. If we can't transport 3 units per turn, we're just diddling our twiddlers.

EDIT: Calculations for the next 6 turns:
4 galleons (+1 upgraded, money permitting)
15 swords (or equivalent)
2 xbows

In other words, we'll produce almost 3 units/turn in addition to the 4 galleons, so our unit production will only increase after we stop building galleons. I doubt 9 galleons will be enough to handle our production.

I'm just saying that Athens is good at building ships, while 2xGold should build units due to it's strategic position (close to the frontier). Athens can keep churning our Galleons and extend the galleon chain from the source, which will enable us to transport an extra 3 units every now and then. Don't build stinkeen ships in 2xGold....

Anyway, since you're probably not listening to reason, I may as well wish you good luck! :lol:

What about the whip then? "Limited poprushes" sounds a bit girlie to me... Why not proper whipping to remove all citizens that work low-yield tiles and remove the angry men?

Anyway, since you're probably not listening to reason, I may as well wish you good luck! :lol: Hey, didn't you talk me out of attacking Uppsala, this morning? ;) You guys always talk me into something. klarius talked me into Construciton AND Archery...

What about the whip then? "Limited poprushes" sounds a bit girlie to me... Why not proper whipping to remove all citizens that work low-yield tiles and remove the angry men?I'll think long and hard about 2XGold and after a moment make my decision... :lol:

I agree on the FP whip and the other three are already listed. I also intend to whip Athens twice, and maybe Carthage (I forget). Athens needs to have 7 citizens, minimum. Limited means not to death. We can poprush to death AFTER we find the third AI and know what we're in for.

What about units? I think 2 xbows is plenty for now. What about cats and WEs? Should I just build swords?

We probably should try to balance Galleons with troop production to make sure that we're producing enough of both. If 2xgold needs to produce another one to make it work out, so be it...

Does anyone know how the imports/exports number are related? If you add the numbers and divide by three, it will only make sense if one AI has 0/0 trade. That would also fit with us being second rank, yes?

Which means that the last AI is isolated. Which means that LC MUST ensure not to stumble into the border. Check every move for the cultural tile in world view! We don't want to trigger the war-mode. The fastest way to finish this game is to land LOTS of units the same turn we declare and capture a bunch of cities on the next turn. Don't listen to jesusin-I-dont-like-warlords ;)

Dow or not dow, I think it is the same. Now, FINDING them is an all important question. Build us some exploration, LC!

Build us some exploration, LC!Ah yes. The Spanish were always adventurous souls, whether searching for a new land, a new heart, or a new bull fight... :lol: Your wish is my command, jesusin!

No help with the logic for which units to build, anyone? Swords seem to do the trick, or was I just lucky beyond all belief? Or should I throw 4 cats into the mix. If they clean up at the end of battles, we'll have have them double-promoted in no time, so they can destroy city defenses in a single turn. I'm not much of a WE person, so I don't even know how to think with them.

What about units? I think 2 xbows is plenty for now. What about cats and WEs? Should I just build swords?

I would rather only build WEs with cats (only a few for tough cities) mixed in for MM purposes. Then there is also not that much need for ships.

...
No help with the logic for which units to build, anyone? Swords seem to do the trick, or was I just lucky beyond all belief? Or should I throw 4 cats into the mix. If they clean up at the end of battles, we'll have have them double-promoted in no time, so they can destroy city defenses in a single turn. I'm not much of a WE person, so I don't even know how to think with them.

LC, it's important that we have a mix of units. And it's not enough to have only one of each, since the defender will then always choose the best defense. It's better to have about three units of each type and use them as standby i.e. land them if they are needed. When you notice the defense, you can choose whether to land swords, crossbows or WE (not one of each).

WE are excellent against tough defenders, such as Nidaros. That battle could have ended with another 3 dead swords if you had been unlucky.

I would advice you to rush crossbowmen and WE, but building swords. Throw in three cats that we keep alive for accuracy promotion (we don't need to heal them as long as we use them for bombard), and we're fine forever. Please ensure you build the cats in barrack-obama-cities.

The colateral damage from cats are marginal (~10 HP), so one suicidal cat won't help that much. I agree that keeping them alive for Accuracy promotion is preferable.

Okay, I'm starting. I'll post a screenshot of Hatihabu Drojf before capturing.

T5, cont.
Haithabu Drojf revealed. Defended by C1 axe and C1 sword! pop4, no barracks. So far looks like an economic ball and chain. Continent appears to spread both south and north.

Our economy +9g/t after 4 pop2 poprushses.

I/T: Ragnar's 'defending' axe attacks and kills our sword on the hill. :crazyeye: Our chariot helplessly watches the honorable sacrifice of our noble sword, while the hairs begin to bristle on his mane...

T6 aka Things get interesting.
Upon inspection, I see that flatland, 40%-cultural Haithabu is protected by merely a CI sword. But first things first. Our chariot re-dignifies the desecrated honor of our swordsman, who is given an appropriate burial, marked forever in history by a stone cairn at the top of the hill. By way of contrast, the offending axeman is dragged across the desert sands, Achilles style, and left to eye-picking ravens.

I move one galleon into position for attack from sea, hoping to reveal more tiles and determine whether the Drojf is worth keeping. Not enough data. The plains hill to the SW has no road, maybe the chariot can continue up there safely and give us the needed information. He does so and reveals the following sight for jesusin to behold:http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_185AD_DoW_Cyrus.JPGOne move of the galleon SE and: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_185_ad_galleon_discovers_Sals_lan.JPGGalleon moves 2 more tiles and runs into a brick wll of anti-circumnavigation continent. Looks like we may have a somewhat sprawling continent with Sal up to the NW and Cyrus to the SW.

I/T: zzzzzz........

T7
Ragnar has a pop1 jungle city to the NW. Useless for anything except war weariness. I continue exploring toward Sal since he appears to be the most distant AI. While units recuperate, I leave Cyrus alone for now to not instigate within-2-tile-of-city war production.

I/T: zzzzz.........

T8
Ragnar's useless no-name fishing village auto-razes. I raze a barb city for XP. Saladin is hellacious far away. There's either a lake in the middle or one of those winding continents. We could poprush a settler in Murkaros for a drojf if it would get us quicker to Saladin, but we don't know yet. Cyrus' pop5 city of Ecbatana is defended by only a spearman. Ragnar shows more culture to the south of Ecbatana.

I/T: zzzzz.........

T9
zzzzz.........

I/T: zzzzz.........

T10
Captured Ecbatana. We can see Ragnars other city. I left the galleons a bit messed up.

Comments
earlier I sent some swords up toward Sal but then I turned them back after capturing Ragnar's city and a barb city, thinking there had to be a faster route. Now I don't think so and I regret bringing them back. We could have started an outpostthere sooner. But it probably doesn't matter. We'll need 8-10 galleons to chain to Sal, I think. The land route will be impossibly too slow.

Here is your Session Turn Log:
Turn 178, 170 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 178, 170 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Athens. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 178, 170 AD: You have trained a Crossbowman in FP City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 178, 170 AD: Ragnar's Axeman (5.50) vs Churchill's Swordsman (4.80)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Combat Odds: 70.3%
Turn 178, 170 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 178, 170 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 178, 170 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 178, 170 AD: Ragnar's Axeman has defeated Churchill's Swordsman!

Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Chariot (4.40) vs Ragnar's Axeman (1.68)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Chariot is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 28 (36/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 28 (8/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Axeman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Ragnar's Axeman!
Turn 179, 185 AD: You have declared war on Cyrus!
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Swordsman (11.70)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Combat Odds: 1.0%
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman has defeated Churchill's Swordsman!
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Swordsman (4.48)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Combat Odds: 87.5%
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 18 (26/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 18 (8/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Ragnar's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Swordsman!
Turn 179, 185 AD: You have captured Haithabu!!!
Turn 179, 185 AD: You have trained a War Elephant in FP City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.

Turn 180, 200 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.
Turn 180, 200 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Athens. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 180, 200 AD: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 180, 200 AD: Cyrus adopts Theocracy!

Turn 181, 215 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Ragnar's Spearman (2.66)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (City Attack: -85%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Ragnar's Spearman is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Ragnar's Spearman is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Ragnar's Spearman is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Ragnar's Spearman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Ragnar's Spearman!
Turn 181, 215 AD: You have captured Bjørgvin!!!
Turn 181, 215 AD: You have pillaged 27 ? from the destruction of Bjørgvin!!!
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.45)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.45)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 181, 215 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 181, 215 AD: You have captured Phrygian!!!
Turn 181, 215 AD: You have destroyed the city of Phrygian!!!

Turn 182, 230 AD: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 182, 230 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Timbuktu!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Ivory City.
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Axeman (2.43)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Your Chariot has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Spearman (2.58)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Spearman!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Cyrus converts to Christianity!

Turn 183, 245 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Athens.
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Swordsman (6.00) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.65)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Combat Odds: 71.8%
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (City Attack: -85%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Swordsman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 183, 245 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Cyrus's Spearman (4.00)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Cyrus's Spearman!
Turn 183, 245 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have captured Ecbatana!!!
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have destroyed the city of Ecbatana!!!
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Athens. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have trained a War Elephant in FP City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have trained a Galleon in 2XGold City. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 184, 260 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Timbuktu.
Turn 184, 260 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ? for Ivory City.
Turn 184, 260 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Athens.

Every city with some pop can be taken, I think. If it's getting bad with money we still can pop-rush a golden wall for well over 100 gold.

What do you guys think of researching Civil Service? It would increase production in London and provide a failsafe against longbows.

What do you guys think of researching Civil Service? It would increase production in London and provide a failsafe against longbows.
Research is out for this game.

We don't expect to see longbows, but even if we would that wouldn't mean we need maces. Just that we would have to build a few more cats.

London wouldn't even justify the revolt to CS this late in the game. Much less the big effort to get research going again.

Every city with some pop can be taken, I think. If it's getting bad with money we still can pop-rush a golden wall for well over 100 gold.lol. that's funny. We'll just have to do that too, won't we... :cool:

I'm telling you, though. Managing these poprush overflows, with forests getting chopped left and right and the 25% unit bonus, is hairy. I had to delay one chop in FP City to avoid a golden crossbow...:lol:

What do you guys think of researching Civil Service? It would increase production in London and provide a failsafe against longbows.Longbows don't stand a chance against swords and cats, much less WEs and cats.

Ok, everybody close. I think we don't need a lot galleons currently, but first look to attack nearby cities.

I would keep Haithabu for it's central position. We could also still consider one more revolt. That's paganism no-state religion so we get culture expansion.

Nice LC.

Attack Haithabu at once (from sea) and keep city. No reason to hold back. We will get out of revolt one turn sooner, and even if we loose one extra unit (which I doubt we will), that's one pop that Ragnar may rush IBT anyway.

Okay, I'll keep Haithabu, just in case the Drojf proves useful. We could also do a combo-chop-poprush Golden walls there, if we need to. I think we should maximize the number of units we produce (=swords). The more we can get to the front, the quick we can end the game.

We can decide on paganism after the Haithapu resistance is over and more exploration tells us how small the big picture is. I'm doubting we should spend any more turns on anyting but production.

I/T: Ragnar's 'defending' axe attacks and kills our sword on the hill. :crazyeye:
Well, looks like it was upgraded from a scouting warrior :).

...
I would keep Haithabu for it's central position. We could also still consider one more revolt. That's paganism no-state religion so we get culture expansion.

One turn of revolt costs us >100 hammers in our home towns and then it will take 8 or 15 turns to expand. I doubt we will be able to keep many more cities, so we have to think twice before another turn of anarchy. Perhaps in 10-20 turns, but then it may be too late...

Double post

Finished my turnset. Our unit production is going great guns. We have a bunch of galleons, but probably need even more. Saladin is FFFAAARRR away. I think we need to have two fronts. One taking down Cyrus gradually, the other focused on chaining units to Saladin. We probably need to eliminate Ragnar before we start getting hit with war weariness.

Micromanaging unit production with all the hammers from forests, overflow, 25% bonus, and occasional poprushes is tricky. In fact, it's not easy to squeeze in a pop2 poprush some of the time...

We should get the circumnavigation sound next turn.

Looks nice so far.

I don't think we need a chain to Sal. Just bring troops over from the Persian front as they get available.

Also I think we shouldn't let troops from Carthage hoof it across our island. Just build a galleon for every 3 troops and let them ship over to Sal (that's much faster for the troops to see a battle). The galleons then don't return, but move in direction to Persia to fetch the victorious troops there.

The walls in Haithabu isn't that urgent. I would rather pop-rush an explorer first. Up to now there is only guessing how big this land really is and how many inland cities there are. I would like that to change.

EDIT: Make a galleon chain to the South. Ignore this post.

I don't think we need a chain to Sal. Just bring troops over from the Persian front as they get available.

Also I think we shouldn't let troops from Carthage hoof it across our island. Just build a galleon for every 3 troops and let them ship over to Sal (that's much faster for the troops to see a battle). The galleons then don't return, but move in direction to Persia to fetch the victorious troops there.We'll see the SW part of the AI continent in a couple of turns, but that looks like horizontal (=slow) movement. Going NW is diagonal (=fast) movement. We're about 6 turns from landing 3 units NW of Mecca. Then it's 3 more units every other turn--we're about 10 turns from landing 9 units. Three turns later Mecca crashes and burns to the ground.

Sending galleons from Carthage takes 6-7 turns, I think. Over land to 2xGold is 8 turns to the Meccan coastline. But the units going to 2xGold leave as soon as they're produced. From Carthage eastward, the units wait one to several turns for the galleon, so they get to Saladin in 8-12 turns after they're produced. This solution might be workable for a galleon-load or two, but then it's no longer useful, I don't think. It would definitely be useful to have some galleons on Sal's side for transporting the units along the coast, but these can also come from Athens along the chain.

Right now we have 7 galleons on the Athens side. We need 6 for a chain to Mecca. We need three to transport units to Cyrus. Athens is about to produce one more galleon, so with the second we already have two working chains supplying both fronts with 3 units every 2 turns. The battle of Mecca begins just after the beginning of Gnejs' turnset. Gnejs (or Erkon at the latest) will finish the game.

The walls in Haithabu isn't that urgent. I would rather pop-rush an explorer first. Up to now there is only guessing how big this land really is and how many inland cities there are. I would like that to change.Excellent idea.

LC, great play!

Mîtiu, please draft a PPP. You have an extra 4 turns to plan for. Plan for five turns first, then when we have confirmed it, you can play five turns. Please use the template provided, accessible from post#3. Can you do do this latest Saturday?

Nicely played LC.

Ioan, you basically just need to build lots of good units and ship them west. I would take out Ragnar ASAP to reduce WW. We might also start a East-to West shipping to attack from the other direction.

Post #3 updated to date. Please tell me if something is wrong or is missing. The spoiler sections at the end are pretty thin for example.

EDIT: Use galleon chain route to the SOUTH. Ignore the rest of this post.
Here is a diagram showing the two possible galleon chain routes. Route A requires 6 galleons to go over the northern top to Mecca. This route will work. Route B involves some unknowns and we do not yet know if it will work. Units coming from 2xGOld will have to walk across the land from point 3a to point 4a. But that may be a lake, which means we'll need a drojf to get our galleons in there and the units will have to walk again on the other side. In short, Route B may be 1 or 2 turns slower than Route A. On the other hand, it *may* require one galleon less overall and it means all our units are going in the same direction.

For us to not use either Route A or Route B would be folly, because our galleons are 2.5X to 5X faster than walking. I have used galleon chaining many times before and IT WORKS. We used it in SG3 to turn Bronze into Silver (as it turned out). I've used in GOTMs (my only silver medal there). CFR used it to crush us in SG5. We're obviously in a dogfight for the medals with a number of teams. We can't afford to screw this up.

In any case we need to produce at least 3 units per turn from now on and have 2 galleon chains transporting them. I think I have been making too many WEs. We need to make enough Swordsmen to have 3 units per turn.

Mitiu, if you decide to set up the northern Route A (6 galleons), then you would use the southern Route B up to point 3a (3 galleons) to transport units to kill Cyrus.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_260ad_chaining.JPG

Nice LC. You could mix in a few axes/spears/crossbows to offset the cost of the WEs.

Swords seem to be the best all-around unit. I actually didn't make any cats at all. Just seemed like the swords pack a better punch, even as suiciders.

Swords seem to be the best all-around unit. I actually didn't make any cats at all. Just seemed like the swords pack a better punch, even as suiciders.

Swords make the best city attackers. The axes/spears help to round out the stack and protect it from counter attack. This might not be that helpful against an AI that is more likely just to keep its units in the city. In multiplayer, most of the battles take place outside of the cities.

Swords make the best city attackers. The axes/spears help to round out the stack and protect it from counter attack. This might not be that helpful against an AI that is more likely just to keep its units in the city. In multiplayer, most of the battles take place outside of the cities.You're right. And a chariot. Funny, though, because not having the axe in my stack may have drawn Ragnar out to attack and kill my sword. My chariot then cleaned up and his city was easy pickings.

GOT IT - will wrote a pre-PPP this evening. :)

Swords make the best city attackers.
Swords can only compare to WEs if they at least CR2 (and still have a problem with axes). We should definitely not build unpromoted swords and as the game progresses it gets more and more unlikely that the units even see a second battle.

For the general strategy:
I would put priority on Persepolis now. That's a city we want to keep as it has the Great Lighthouse. It also gets us access to this inner sea (:confused:).
Ignore Ragnar's western city for now to not divert troops from this goal. Finish the road to connect to the Persian road system.
I still think revolt to no-state could pay off (by some additional pop-rushes in Haithabu). But only if done now, not late in the game.

How many galleons, attacking units and gpt at 0% research do we have now, please?


My points before that info:
- Research at 0% forever
- No more revolutions
- Forget small close cities, they will be taken by the last units. WW doesn't matter, let's whip it away.
- What about a whipping massacre next turn?
- Build only WE, Swords and Cats (most, some, few respectively). We want counter-attacks. Exchanging units out of the city walls is good for us. Separate units (no stacks near cities) so that single units are in no-roaded tiles.
- Bigger cities first.

We are at -23gpt with 287g in the hold currently. Nothing of concern currently as we will get more gold from cities and can still get some golden walls if necessary (no need to prioritize that).

BTW, galleon chain to Arabia is a nice project, but the biggest target (wrt to power, score and pop) is Cyrus. He also is now in theocracy and will build tougher units than the others.

EDIT: This post was for discussion only. Make galleon chain to the South and ignore this post.

Swords can only compare to WEs if they at least CR2 (and still have a problem with axes). We should definitely not build unpromoted swords and as the game progresses it gets more and more unlikely that the units even see a second battle.

We are at -23gpt with 287g in the hold currently. Nothing of concern currently as we will get more gold from cities and can still get some golden walls if necessary (no need to prioritize that).

BTW, galleon chain to Arabia is a nice project, but the biggest target (wrt to power, score and pop) is Cyrus. He also is now in theocracy and will build tougher units than the others.Why either/or? Why not both Saladin and Cyrus? Please answer. I have given a precise plan for doing both at the same time and no one has responded to it.

Sure, WEs are slightly better than swords, but they're also 50% more expensive. So far, our swords have done fine, even against axes. But I'm not saying forget WEs. My point is to prioritize our builds like this:

Priority 1: 9 galleons so we can have 2 chains, so we can move 3 units every turn. (Each chain can only move 3 units every other turn, so they alternate.)
Priority 2: Produce enough units to have 3 available at 2xGold every turn. We can do this by making enough of the cheaper swords/cats.
Priority3: Make as many WEs as possible, while still having 3 units per turn at 2xGold.

Mitiu, if you do it right, you should have about 9 units, including a few WEs and an Xbow, knocking on Saladin's/Mecca's door on T14. You might even ben capturing it, I'm not certain.

In summary: Why EITHER Cyrus OR Saladin? We can have production and galleons for both.

Why either/or? Why not both Saladin and Cyrus? Please answer. I have given a precise plan for doing both at the same time and no one has responded to it.

Because I've been THINKING about how to find out a BETTER way to kick the remaining AI out of the game and keeping our competitors from the GOLD laurel! ;)

Sure, WEs are slightly better than swords, but they're also 50% more expensive. So far, our swords have done fine, even against axes. But I'm not saying forget WEs. My point is to prioritize our builds like this:

Priority 1: 9 galleons so we can have 2 chains, so we can move 3 units every turn. (Each chain can only move 3 units every other turn, so they alternate.)
Priority 2: Produce enough units to have 3 available at 2xGold every turn. We can do this by making enough of the cheaper swords/cats.
Priority3: Make as many WEs as possible, while still having 3 units per turn at 2xGold.

Mitiu, if you do it right, you should have about 9 units, including a few WEs and an Xbow, knocking on Saladin's/Mecca's door on T14. You might even ben capturing it, I'm not certain.

In summary: Why EITHER Cyrus OR Saladin? We can have production and galleons for both.

I fully support the idea to crank out 3 units every turn. Excellent. I just don't grasp the implementation of the Galleon chains, because the northern route does not look attractive to me (no cities along the coast).

There is another option: send the Galleons south of Cyrus toward Saladin. Even if we don't know the exact length, it means that we can drop off units along the chain. And while the chain is extending, we can drop off 3 units / turn. We would then be able to capture a city every second turn. We then complete the game in 24 turns.

Both mine and LC's chains suffer from uncertainties (what does the land look like west of Cyrus), and we probably need more than 9 Galleons. The difference is that LC targets Mecca first, while I target Cyrus cities along the southern coast. Comments?

EDIT: Make galleon chain to the South. Ignore this post.

Because I've been THINKING about how to find out a BETTER way to kick the remaining AI out of the game and keeping our competitors from the GOLD laurel! ;) That's the spirit!

There is another option: send the Galleons south of Cyrus toward Saladin. Even if we don't know the exact length, it means that we can drop off units along the chain. And while the chain is extending, we can drop off 3 units / turn. We would then be able to capture a city every second turn. We then complete the game in 24 turns. I think Route B in my picture is going to be much shorter than around the southern edge.

Both mine and LC's chains suffer from uncertainties (what does the land look like west of Cyrus), and we probably need more than 9 Galleons. The difference is that LC targets Mecca first, while I target Cyrus cities along the southern coast. Comments?NO!!! I DO NOT TARGET MECCA FIRST. NO NO NO!!!

There is already a huge force moving on Cyrus/Persepolis. That must continue! Cyrus is already doomed.

My plan continues the attack on Cyrus to the South and adds a new front on Saladin IN PARALLEL. This is what I envision:

Cyrus: Mitiu continues attacking Cyrus, mostly over land, because we don't have a sea route there yet.
Saladin: At the same time Mitiu moves the right number of galleons into position to transport units to Sal.

By the end of Mitiu's turnset, Cyrus will be in deep trouble and Gnejs will rapidly clean up everything else.

NO!!! I DO NOT TARGET MECCA FIRST. NO NO NO!!!

There is already a huge force moving on Cyrus/Persepolis. That must continue! Cyrus is already doomed.

My plan continues the attack on Cyrus to the South and adds a new front on Saladin IN PARALLEL. This is what I envision:

Cyrus: Mitiu continues attacking Cyrus, mostly over land, because we don't have a sea route there yet.
Saladin: At the same time Mitiu moves the right number of galleons into position to transport units to Sal.

By the end of Mitiu's turnset, Cyrus will be in deep trouble and Gnejs will rapidly clean up everything else.

Compared to my plan, you target Mecca first i.e. earlier than me. I focus on landing units along the southern coast, which is much quicker than moving by land.

The drawback with your plan is that we have trouble to reach the cities on the south-western part of the continent (8a on your map). Your plan can be improved if we sail units from Carthage to spot 8a. But if route B is not be possible to traverse with Galleons, we're screwed big time.

The drawback with my plan is that I reach Mecca at the very end.

If the inner sea is big enough, we could send one Galleon chain through it to reach all cities...

Perhaps an explorer from Haithabu will solve all our problems. We can get one moving on T2, and on T5 have enough intel to decide which chain is the best. Do we need to decide earlier?

How many galleons, attacking units and gpt at 0% research do we have now, please?

My points before that info:
- What about a whipping massacre next turn?Whipping massacre doesn't make sense because we don't have galleons to transport so many units. Between Ragnar and Cyrus we have:

1 WE
2 xbows
4 CRIII swords
1 CRII sword
2 3/2XP swords
1 0/2XP sword
1 CRII axe
1 chariot
Jeanne d'Arc

plus: CII axe guarding Murkaros and a CI 4/4XP sword guarding Haithapu.

We have 9 galleons total, spread out like this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/sg6_260ad_9_galleons.JPG

The drawback with your plan is that we have trouble to reach the cities on the south-western part of the continent (8a on your map). Your plan can be improved if we sail units from Carthage to spot 8a. But if route B is not be possible to traverse with Galleons, we're screwed big time. That's why we need a settler in Murkaros asap and a drojf N of Haithapu.

The drawback with my plan is that I reach Mecca at the very end. Erkon, no hidden agendas here. Gnejs finishes the game, not you... :p

If the inner sea is big enough, we could send one Galleon chain through it to reach all cities... Right. If... It's even possible that Persepolis is a Drojf.

Perhaps an explorer from Haithabu will solve all our problems. We can get one moving on T2, and on T5 have enough intel to decide which chain is the best. Do we need to decide earlier?Here's a 2-turn exploration plan that may tell us all about the lake:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/sg6_260ad_lake_exploration.JPG

No matter what, we can't attack Persepolis before about T7, right? And that's using three galleons. On foot they attack T9. This is going to really drag out if we don't do anything about Saladin till after Cyrus. Have you looked at how long the path is, if we have to go south around the bottom of the continent?

Excuse me my ignorance - but what's a "Drojf" ?? :rolleyes:

Excuse me my ignorance - but what's a "Drojf" ?? :rolleyes:It's a city that functions as a CANAL! Sorry. It's not a real word.

Okay, I think Route B is better, if it goes all the way through:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_260ad_2_routes.JPG

Excuse me my ignorance - but what's a "Drojf" ?? :rolleyes:

A Drojf is the opposite of a Fjord. Since a Fjord is a mass of water separating two land masses, then a Drojf is a piece of land separating two water masses. It was LC who confused the rest of us in SGOTM5 when he wanted to build a Fjord that was a Drojf...

I've updated LC's Galleon map to illustrate my ideas (combined with LC's land exploration with/without Explorer)

EDIT: short term tactical Galleon movement updated since I was not aware of the Drojf-capability of Haithabu

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/68003/sg6_260ad_south_B.jpg

Okay, it seems like klarius, Erkon, and I are in basic agreement on this. So the key aspects of Mitiu's turnset, as I see it, would be:

1. Establish a galleon chain to Cyrus and beyond.
2. Move units on that chain.
3. Capture (keep or raze?) Persepolis and other Cyrus cities.
4. Explore inland so we know all targets needed for conquest.

Notes for Mitiu from my turnset:

On our home continent, there are two workers making roads SW of London. After those two roads, they and all other workers are positioned to chop forests. I don't think we need any more improvements at all, because this game is almost over. Just chopchopchop.

Between Haithapu and Cyrus, we need roads...

Mîtiu, if there is ANYTHING you are unclear about our general strategy or short term tactics, please ask us. I know it's hard to keep track of all ideas flying around, and pick out the key actions that are REALLY important. Example: how to implement a ship chain regarding loading & unloading? How to whip efficiently (always two pop)? What is important at this stage of the game?

As a general guideline, everyones target in the team is to complete this game in 24 turns, which is the last of Gnejs' turn set. I would prefer if it took 25 turns :lol: This means that there is absolutely no point in investing in anything that takes more than 25 turns to pay back.

It also means that we will probably pop-rush Timbuktu to size 1 in 15 turns, and the home cities within turn 20. Just to give you a hunch of how few turns we have left (if we manage to implement the Galleon chain correct :D)

or where Persepolis is...

I fully support the idea to crank out 3 units every turn. Excellent. I just don't grasp the implementation of the Galleon chains, because the northern route does not look attractive to me (no cities along the coast).

There is another option: send the Galleons south of Cyrus toward Saladin. Even if we don't know the exact length, it means that we can drop off units along the chain. And while the chain is extending, we can drop off 3 units / turn. But where? Only down by Persepolis and a bit west, maybe. We would then be able to capture a city every second turn. How? Wich cities? I don't see how this works out. We then complete the game in 24 turns.Man, this has been bugging me, but I think I finally figured out what doesn't make sense to me in your plan and I was driving at in mine. So, I again disagree with you and klarius.

1 galleon chain = 3 units every other turn.

If we look at your map above (or mine right above it), where can you drop of 3 units/per turn? Where do you even have your second galleon chain? Even if you have 12 galleons (which we could have pretty quickly) doubled up, how far can you take units? Just past Persepolis. In other words, you're feeding one front with 2x units. Then what?

With 12 galleons, my plan would feed two fronts 3 units every other turn. Persepolis falls, then Mecca, then dominoes in between. And we don't chase settlers from here to Timbuktu.

If we're going to do your plan, then no more swords, only war elephants and xbows (or a half a dozen more galleons), because we can't transport more than 3 every other turn when the chain extends to 8a and beyond. Or am I missing something?

Okay, here's an idea that might work. We do the southern route and really only make WEs. With our economy at about 180h/turn, that's 2 WEs/turn, which is too much for 3 units every other turn, but Athens keeps making galleons to gradually extend the chain all the way to Mecca. Each time a new galleon comes out, it can handle the overflowof WEs by just extending the chain (rather than reversing its flow that time around).

deleted,,,

Whipping massacre doesn't make sense because we don't have galleons to transport so many units.

Thank you for the info, LC :goodjob:

A few posts above you were talking about "Swords instead of WE" because we don't have enough units to fill our galleons. Now you say we'd have too many units...

Since I have partial information of what is going on, maybe I am proposing something stupid, but anyway, here is my proposal:
T0 put a few hammers on a WE in every city in our home land.
T1 Whip the WE in every city in our home land.
T2 Go back to builder mode (building death, I mean).

... Or am I missing something?

Yes, the fact that we're implementing a dynamic, growing chain, not a static. The chain I propose will ship 3xunits every turn from T3 and T13. It will take 3 turn to set it up, and during this time the Gallons close to the front delivers the 9 units according to my picture. Then two of these Galleons travel back, and joins the Galleon from Athens + the northern Galleon. The chain is thus extended with one ship/turn until ~T13. That's 30 units. But we don't expect all of those to die, so the surviving units make their way back to the ships that are still moving. Athens continue building Galleons (1/3 turns?) and the chain can be extended further. I haven't done the calculations or detailed planning, but that is the general idea.

A few posts above you were talking about "Swords instead of WE" because we don't have enough units to fill our galleons. Now you say we'd have too many units...

Since I have partial information of what is going on, maybe I am proposing something stupid, but anyway, here is my proposal:
T0 put a few hammers on a WE in every city in our home land.
T1 Whip the WE in every city in our home land.
T2 Go back to builder mode (building death, I mean).1. "Not enough units" to fill our GALLEON CHAINS with 3 units per turns. Galleon chaining is a constant flow, not a sudden eruption, of units. (Read the CFR SG5 thread for a clear explanation.)
2. We can't "put a few hammers" on a WE. Our cities produce huge amounts of hammers every turn (including chopping and overflow). It's hard to poprush for 90:hammers:. Still, I did a lot of it. The :mad:s are already mounting.
3. We are in War Mode, not builder mode, and it's getting expensive. If we poprush our cities to death, we lose a huge amount of gold per turn. It's not feasible. Neither financially nor logistically.

Galleon chain and win this game. Do something else and be laughing stocks.

Yes, the fact that we're implementing a dynamic, growing chain, not a static. The chain I propose will ship 3xunits every turn from T3 and T13. It will take 3 turn to set it up, and during this time the Gallons close to the front delivers the 9 units according to my picture. Then two of these Galleons travel back, and joins the Galleon from Athens + the northern Galleon. The chain is thus extended with one ship/turn until ~T13. That's 30 units. But we don't expect all of those to die, so the surviving units make their way back to the ships that are still moving. Athens continue building Galleons (1/3 turns?) and the chain can be extended further. I haven't done the calculations or detailed planning, but that is the general idea.This growing chain idea is what I described in the post following the one you quoted, right? Except that you keep going with 3/turn while you build the chain. This is good. It solves the problem klarius was talking about concerning galleon chains not being useful till the game is over. This one will be useful for Gnejs. I can imagine he'll turn it into a bloodfest. That's what I agree we should do. That means we need to keep cranking out 3 units per turn, which means a balance of swords and WEs.

It's very important that Mitiu keeps extending the galleon chain and doesn't leave Gnejs with a big mess. The galleon chain also need to loop up to the London loading dock and then over.

Thoughts:
Exploration:
1. We need to find out asap if there really is a South Passage around the AI continent.
2. If our explorer discovers inland cities, we should assign at least 3 workers to roading from the Haithabu area to the NW toward Mecca or so. Just in case.

Keeping Persepolis means Great Wall means we can't give TImbuktu and Carthage to the barbs. Since their production will be useless later on, we should keep enough pop there to work good commerce tiles.

Northern Galleon: Where is it more useful? North of the Mecca peninsula or down with our galleon chain somewhere?

Mîtiu, if there is ANYTHING you are unclear about our general strategy or short term tactics, please ask us. I know it's hard to keep track of all ideas flying around, and pick out the key actions that are REALLY important.

I just took a look to save-file : mainly I understand ( I hope ) the general position, but I have not to much ideeas ... :mischief:

1. Northern "galleon-chain" seems for me the choice for moment.
2. Simultaneously we need to explore south of Upsalla to see if there is any passage/possibility for a "chanel-city".
3. Start to build next some catapults - I see none on action right now ...
4. Explore a little bit to find the exact location of Persepolis - and gather all unloaded troops around ( in a hill/forest nearby ).

Only one curiosity - research is completely down, no ? No need to try to research Currency - no ?

Regards.

Thoughts:
Exploration:
1. We need to find out asap if there really is a South Passage around the AI continent.
2. If our explorer discovers inland cities, we should assign at least 3 workers to roading from the Haithabu area to the NW toward Mecca or so. Just in case.

Keeping Persepolis means Great Wall means we can't give TImbuktu and Carthage to the barbs. Since their production will be useless later on, we should keep enough pop there to work good commerce tiles.

Northern Galleon: Where is it more useful? North of the Mecca peninsula or down with our galleon chain somewhere?

Agree on 1. and 2.

Great Wall does not extend over ocean, at least not the last time I checked!!! :p So we can surely abandon both Timbuktu and Carthage even if we keep Persepolis.

In my opinion, the northern Galleon goes SE to London and pick up units and join the Galleon chain.

I just took a look to save-file : mainly I understand ( I hope ) the general position, but I have not to much ideeas ... :mischief:

1. Northern "galleon-chain" seems for me the choice for moment.
2. Simultaneously we need to explore south of Upsalla to see if there is any passage/possibility for a "chanel-city".
3. Start to build next some catapults - I see none on action right now ...
4. Explore a little bit to find the exact location of Persepolis - and gather all unloaded troops around ( in a hill/forest nearby ).

Only one curiosity - research is completely down, no ? No need to try to research Currency - no ?

Regards.

1.- Yes, I think so
2.- Yes
3.- No, we are not going to bombard anything this game. We are in the end-game. An elephant will do more damage than a Cat, even if you add all the collateral damage together.
4.- I don't know if we have spare units for that.
5.- Yes, we need to pay unit mointenance from now on, so no more techs at all.
6.- Take a couple of cities far from home, please.

Ioan,

I've done some calculations. In terms of hammer economy, swords are slightly better than WEs, if they have a CR1 promotion, for attacking a city.

A sword is 60 :hammers: and the WE is 90 :hammers:

Swords automatically get +10% Attack vs. City and CR1 gives another +20%

6 * 1.3 = 7.8

WE gets no defensive bonus and +50% vs. Mounted. With Combat I it gets a +10% bonus.

8 * 1.1 = 8.8

The WEs cost 50% more but only give you about a 10% increase in attack.

Ioan,

I've done some calculations. In terms of hammer economy, swords are slightly better than WEs, if they have a CR1 promotion, for attacking a city.

A sword is 60 :hammers: and the WE is 90 :hammers:

Swords automatically get +10% Attack vs. City and CR1 gives another +20%

6 * 1.3 = 7.8

WE gets no defensive bonus and +50% vs. Mounted. With Combat I it gets a +10% bonus.

8 * 1.1 = 8.8

The WEs cost 50% more but only give you about a 10% increase in attack.

Murky, I agree with you that swords are in general slightly better than WEs, from a production value point of view. Good analysis*. Three swords are better than two elephants because the number of units are important to take a city in one turn. There are a few occasions when WEs are better: a) when the city is defended by axes or b) when there are archers in a walled city on hills, where the sword may not damage the defender at all. Also, it may not be possible to whip swords for two pop. LC-the-MM-Master manages, but I doubt I would.

Conclusion: I agree that we should try to build more swords that elephants.

* - the calculations are not entirely correct. The City Raid bonus is removed from the defender strength, while the combat bonus is added to the attacker strength. So a sword with CR1 still has 6 combat strength, while the archer will loose 3*0.3 = - 0.9. The end result is not that big, unless the archer has LOTS of bonus contributions (wall, hill, fortification, promotions)..

Murky, I agree with you that swords are in general slightly better than WEs, from a production value point of view. Good analysis*. Three swords are better than two elephants because the number of units are important to take a city in one turn. There are a few occasions when WEs are better: a) when the city is defended by axes or b) when there are archers in a walled city on hills, where the sword may not damage the defender at all. Also, it may not be possible to whip swords for two pop. LC-the-MM-Master manages, but I doubt I would.

Conclusion: I agree that we should try to build more swords that elephants.

* - the calculations are not entirely correct. The City Raid bonus is removed from the defender strength, while the combat bonus is added to the attacker strength. So a sword with CR1 still has 6 combat strength, while the archer will loose 3*0.3 = - 0.9. The end result is not that big, unless the archer has LOTS of bonus contributions (wall, hill, fortification, promotions)..

Thanks for the clarification on the combat calculations. I haven't studied them in depth as much as others have.

* - the calculations are not entirely correct. The City Raid bonus is removed from the defender strength, while the combat bonus is added to the attacker strength. So a sword with CR1 still has 6 combat strength, while the archer will loose 3*0.3 = - 0.9. The end result is not that big, unless the archer has LOTS of bonus contributions (wall, hill, fortification, promotions)..

:p
Erkon, your clarification is not enterely correct and even a builder notices.
:p
First, it is a 6.6 strecnght Sword against a 3-3*0.2= 3 -0.6=2.4 Archer.
:p
The other problem is in the last sentence, even if we accept the -0.9 calculation. All bonus contributions are added together and are applied to the combat face strength, so the -0.9 remains the same in all circumstances. Now, an out of the box Archer goes from 3 to 2.1 strenght while a super-Archer goes from 7.5 to 6.4 strength. So I would say that "the end result is not that big and is even less noticeable in relative terms if the archer has LOTS of bonus contributions.
:p

WEs are a lot stronger than swords against high bonus archers.
Against a typical hill capital archer with 185% bonus (both Mecca and Persepolis have 60% culture defense) a C1 elephant is favorite at 58% with no real chance that the archer kills 2 units. A CR1 sword has only 23% success chance and the archer gets 15% to kill 2 units.
Then there is still the problem with axes ...

Again, don't build unpromoted swords and don't go with fresh swords against capitals.

:p
Erkon, your clarification is not enterely correct and even a builder notices.
:p
First, it is a 6.6 strength Sword against a 3-3*0.2= 3 -0.6=2.4 Archer.
:p
The other problem is in the last sentence, even if we accept the -0.9 calculation. All bonus contributions are added together and are applied to the combat face strength, so the -0.9 remains the same in all circumstances. Now, an out of the box Archer goes from 3 to 2.1 strenght while a super-Archer goes from 7.5 to 6.4 strength. So I would say that "the end result is not that big and is even less noticeable in relative terms if the archer has LOTS of bonus contributions.
:p

Alas, señor, my clarification is indeed entirely correct :eek:

First, the 10% built in bonus is for sure deducted from the defender (6.0 against 2.1 archer). I've tested in world builder :p
Second, a 6.0 sword against a 8.7 super-archer has 8.1% chance, while a WE against the same archer is 8.8 against 9.6 which has 26.8% chance to win. Now, the risk is that the sword does not do enough damage to enable a sure win for the next unit. The difference is surely noticeable, even for a freekin' builder! :joke:

Mîtiu, please use the template that is linked from page 2 (not 3 as previously stated). When you think about each entry, I'm sure you will get ideas :D

WEs are a lot stronger than swords against high bonus archers.
Against a typical hill capital archer with 185% bonus (both Mecca and Persepolis have 60% culture defense) a C1 elephant is favorite at 58% with no real chance that the archer kills 2 units. A CR1 sword has only 23% success chance and the archer gets 15% to kill 2 units.
Then there is still the problem with axes ...

Again, don't build unpromoted swords and don't go with fresh swords against capitals.

We shouldn't underestimate the number of axes we'll be up against. Packing a good number of Catapults and War Elephants should help us overcome any defense the AI might try to use. I think we should go with an overwhelming force doctrine. It is better to have a few too many than too few.

I've been staring at the save and it's quite complicated to get the Galleon chains to work. Regardless of what chain we decide to use (north or south), it's very important that each ship moves correctly from T0, else we will end up spending lots of turns with units on ships :(

The following movement plan will work for the southern variant:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/68003/South_chain.jpg
Athens can rush a Galleon on T3/4, which will fit nicely to extend the chain from the source together with the Galleon from Mecca. On T4, the Persepolis Galleon can return to source, and on T5, the second Galleon returns to source. The problem is of course that the chain will be fillled with units. One way to solve that would be to unload at Ragnars cities and wipe him out to remove WW...

First, the 10% built in bonus is for sure deducted from the defender (6.0 against 2.1 archer). I've tested in world builder :p


Argggg, I somehow added that part at the last moment thinking about a combat1 promotion... :blush:

Mîtiu, are you still interested in playing this turn set? :mischief: We're a bunch of people who are standing in line :lol:

I just took a look to save-file : mainly I understand ( I hope ) the general position, but I have not to much ideeas ... :mischief:

1. Northern "galleon-chain" seems for me the choice for moment.
2. Simultaneously we need to explore south of Upsalla to see if there is any passage/possibility for a "chanel-city".
3. Start to build next some catapults - I see none on action right now ...
4. Explore a little bit to find the exact location of Persepolis - and gather all unloaded troops around ( in a hill/forest nearby ).

Only one curiosity - research is completely down, no ? No need to try to research Currency - no ?

Regards.Mitiu:
1. Erkon's plan to the south looks to me like the better plan, even though I suggested the Northern plan.
2. I don't think we need a channel city. Better to go to the south, UNLESS there's no route to the South at all, of course.
4. We know exactly where Persepolils is. Don't need to explore to figure that out.

Special note: There is one galleon with some movement points left, I think for Turn 0!

Good luck Mitiu! I'm off skiing so I won't see much of what you do.

Mîtiu, are you still interested in playing this turn set? :mischief: We're a bunch of people who are standing in line :lol:

Yes - but this weekend was verrryyy busy for me until now ... :blush:

Wow, no posting since yesterday. What's going on?

I'll play this evening. :)

After writing a PPP of course ... ;)

I'll play this evening. :)

After writing a PPP of course ... ;)Mitiu, the idea is to write the PPP and then give the rest of us some time to respond. Not just write it and then play it. None of the posts we've written so far responded to your PPP if we haven't seen it yet, right?

Plus, don't forget to play only 5 turns and then upload, like I did it. Each turn is very intense right now.

I'll play this evening. :)

After writing a PPP of course ... ;)

Please allow for up to 24 hours review period, or when a majority of the team has responded, which ever come first. Both LC and I have deliberately held back with our advice because we want YOU to think for your self. It doesn't mean we don't have LOTS of ideas :lol:

Good luck with the PPP!

I'm back, had a great trip! :cool:

Graphs are looking great, going to have a look at the save before I fall asleep...:sleep:

BUILD QUEUE
2xGold - Finnish Axeman ( build ), swordsman.
Athens - Finnish Galleon ( by a whip ) - Barracks - Courthouse ( my opinion - but probably I'll be overrulled and this will be removed from the list :p ) - swordsman.
Carthage: War Elephant ( by a whip in turn 0 ) - Courthouse ( the same comment as previous ) - Swordsman
Other cities - Mixed Swordsman/War Elephants/Croswbowman without whips.


UNIT MOVES
To the Western Front the ones from main continent.
Try to set-up the galleon chains as presented by Erkon's picture.
Move all units to siege/conquer Persepolis.

WORKER ACTIONS
Chop everything ... :)
Build some road on Wiking/Persian continent.

CITY MM
Production.
Limited poprushes in Athens, Carthage ( maybe Timbutku too ).

OTHERS
Nothing to do ...

If I receive any reply in the next hour I'll play this morning - otherwise this evening. :)

BUILD QUEUE
2xGold - Finnish Axeman ( build ), swordsman.
Athens - Finnish Galleon ( by a whip ) - Barracks - Courthouse ( my opinion - but probably I'll be overrulled and this will be removed from the list :p ) - swordsman.
Carthage: War Elephant ( by a whip in turn 0 ) - Courthouse ( the same comment as previous ) - Swordsman
Other cities - Mixed Swordsman/War Elephants/Croswbowman without whips.


UNIT MOVES
To the Western Front the ones from main continent.
Try to set-up the galleon chains as presented by Erkon's picture.
Move all units to siege/conquer Persepolis.

WORKER ACTIONS
Chop everything ... :)
Build some road on Wiking/Persian continent.

CITY MM
Production.
Limited poprushes in Athens, Carthage ( maybe Timbutku too ).

OTHERS
Nothing to do ...

If I receive any reply in the next hour I'll play this morning - otherwise this evening. :)

Good job on the PPP. :goodjob:

Comments: I think Athens should build Galleons only from now to eternal time. We need more of them. No freekin' courthouse! (and no barracks)

Carthage - no stinkeen' courthouse!!! ;)

LC left a partly built wall in Haithabu. Do you plan to finish that? Or switch to units?

If you have the opportunity to rush for 2 pop (with invested hammers that is, not from scratch), then do so.

We don't have to worry about funds that much. We will capture a city every second/third turn soon, and that will fund our deficit.

Also note the Galleon in the middle that has movement left...

Thanks for the PPP, Mitiu. Not much to add from me. Do you have a good feel for how to handle the troop movements and city attacks? If Persepolis is on a hill and defended by four archers, how many attackers would you want to have when attacking it?

I am curious why you think courthouses are a good idea? :confused: This game will be won and finished in 20-30 turns, and we already have funds to last us at least 10 turns. Every captured city adds a number of turns to that from loot.

Mîtiu, some final comments, since I'm not sure if it was possible for you to pick this up from previous posts. The following points are what I consider the most important things you have to consider during your first five turns.


If possible, capture Persepolis (and keep if it looks good).
Don't bother with Ragnar. Don't waste ANYTHING on him. We will finish him the last thing we do. Continue sending units along the coast.
Ensure that you get the Galleon chain up in about five turns. It doesn't have to be perfect, but don't leave a bunch of Galleons at one place. Distribute them along a line, and return back to London with the ships that unload units.
Continue producing units in the homeland. It doesn't matter if there are 10 units waiting for transportation since that queue can be emptied very quickly.
Use the Galleon from Carthage to explore the southern coast line of the continent.


You have the choice to build a Galleon in Carthage and send three units eastward in perhaps 5-10 turns?

Please upload after 5 turns and we can review the situation. If everything looks fine, you can play another 5 turns.

Thanks for the PPP, Mitiu. Not much to add from me. Do you have a good feel for how to handle the troop movements and city attacks? If Persepolis is on a hill and defended by four archers, how many attackers would you want to have when attacking it?


10-12 units ( considering especially our CR2 swordsmans ) ? :confused:


I am curious why you think courthouses are a good idea? :confused: This game will be won and finished in 20-30 turns, and we already have funds to last us at least 10 turns. Every captured city adds a number of turns to that from loot.

Overprudence probably ... :rolleyes:

However I played 2 turns ( and moved the galleon on interturn ) and I have 1 good news - we discovered Gems near London so +1 happines if I build the road to that hill !
But I have also a doubt in the second screenshot : should I attack or not ( there is 1 highly promoted axeman + 1 archer on a hill ) this turn ?

Please answer asap - I'll resume to play in 15-20 minutes ... :)


Ensure that you get the Galleon chain up in about five turns. It doesn't have to be perfect, but don't leave a bunch of Galleons at one place. Distribute them along a line, and return back to London with the ships that unload units.

Why in London and not in 2XGold city ??? :confused:

Regards

However I played 2 turns ( and moved the galleon on interturn ) and I have 1 good news - we discovered Gems near London so +1 happines if I build the road to that hill !
But I have also a doubt in the second screenshot : should I attack or not ( there is 1 highly promoted axeman + 1 archer on a hill ) this turn ?

Please answer asap - I'll resume to play in 15-20 minutes ... :)


Let me quote Erkon on that:

Don't bother with Ragnar. Don't waste ANYTHING on him. We will finish him the last thing we do. Continue sending units along the coast.

I agree fully with this. We can take this city anytime, doing it now only slows our progress against the two unbroken AIs.

Great news on the gems! :)

Let me quote Erkon on that:



I agree fully with this. We can take this city anytime, doing it now only slows our progress against the two unbroken AIs.


O.K. - I purely and simply ignore that city then ... ;)

Mitiu: I like the important parts of your PPP. Good job. The important part about London is that the galleon chain can ALSO pick up units from the London loading dock, but yes of course, the galleon chain goes to 2xGOld. You're right about that.

That galleon that just dropped off the war elephant next to Ragnar should continue on and explore toward Cyrus and Persepolis. We want to know asap what that coast looks like. Is it blocked or does it go through?

Capturing that Ragnar city is not too important right now. Persepolis is more important unless you are running out of money or something.

10-12 units ( considering especially our CR2 swordsmans ) ? :confused:


Then you should aim to unload four galleons next to Persepolis on a single turn. Before this, no units should enter within 2 tiles of Persepolis. That way you ensure that Cyrus doesn't have time to build a lot of defenders.

Moving units with galleons is much much quicker than moving over land now that we have the circumnavigation bonus. Remeber this.

Moving units with galleons is much much quicker than moving over land now that we have the circumnavigation bonus. Remeber this.

:(
I have the impresion that I messed up the things at this aspect ... :blush:

I revealed the southern "passage" ( and switch to there all Galleons to set-up the chain ) but mainly I assume that I proceed totally wrong by moving the army ( separately :cry: ) by land towards Persepolis ...

I attached a picture and also I'll update the save after 4 turns - if you decide that I didn't mess up completely the game I'll continue to play tommorow morning. Otherwise ... :scan:

Regards ... and don't kill me ...

Mitiu,

I have an idea. Before attacking a city post what you're using and what you're up against. Let us help to calculate the odds before committing to battle. The combined calcuations should help to minimize our losses.

10-12 units ( considering especially our CR2 swordsmans ) ? :confused:

Why in London and not in 2XGold city ??? :confused:

Regards

10-12 units is excellent plan! I would do the same.

London or 2xGold - doesn't really matter, I just meant the city where you start the chain, and where the units are located. :blush:

Normally that I'll do so !!

The problem appear because I feel that I neglected the "army moves" which give a warning to the AI and let him build/whip more defenders ... :(

:(
I have the impresion that I messed up the things at this aspect ... :blush:

I revealed the southern "passage" ( and switch to there all Galleons to set-up the chain ) but mainly I assume that I proceed totally wrong by moving the army ( separately :cry: ) by land towards Persepolis ...

I attached a picture and also I'll update the save after 4 turns - if you decide that I