Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 6 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game

Gyathaar is playing this one close to his chest. Here's all the intelligence I've been able to wring out of him:


Prince difficulty
Epic speed
You play as the Charismatic, Protective Churchill of the English Empire.
You start with Fishing and Mining.
Your unique unit is the Redcoat, replacing the Rifleman.
Your Unique building is the Stock Exchange, replacing the Bank.
The map is a highly modified Cylindrical Big And Small map, using the BtS map script. It is Standard, Temperate, Medium sea level.
Always war. All VCs are enabled. I think the barbs are at default setting.

Here's the start - click the picture for one a bit bigger.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM06small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM06.jpg)

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.13, on Windows only, with the DLLs as installed with BtS.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.13.002 for Windows. You will need to ensure that you can run the Asset Checker v2 before you attempt to load this game. Typlically, players who have upgraded to Beyond the Sword will have the right assets. Alternatively, you should be able to make your installation compliant by installing the new .DLLs released for WOTM 15 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251044). If you have a Steam installation then you will need to look at this post by ArcadicGamer for inspiration.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game, and you will need to maintain a copy of your installed software at these versions to complete the game.

Timetable
The game will start on December 14th. I recommend you plan for a 4 month deadline for completion.

You will be able to download your start save from the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) on December 14th, at midnight local server time.

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.13 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards may be reduced, depending on the number of teams who sign up.

Awards will be given to teams who win in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Enjoy your mystery tour of the World of Warlords.

Welcome everyone to

SGOTM6 – Team Murky Waters

This time around, we shall have more fun, learn even more and perform better than ever! We are a slightly smaller team compared to SGOTM5, which means that we will play more turn sets than last time. Or maybe not if we manage a very early win :crazyeye:

The framework for the game is pretty much the same as before. I've suggested two changes. The first is a more strict "got it" rule that I hope will reduce uncertainties. The second is a pre-plan-plan that I would like us to test. I've highlighted these two changes below in blue. You are free to comment as usual :D

The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM6 team (including jesusin when applicable :p )

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462))* and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 06 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254424)

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 72 48 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. These rules replaces guideline 6 and 7 in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 48 36 hours. The rest of the team needs the in between 24 12 hours to solve whos next. It is mandatory to wait at least 12 hours after the "got it" before you play, and it's recommended to wait at least 24 hours after the ”got it” before you play. Else, the difference in time zones and busy work days may prevent players to post useful advice. If you for some reason have to "unget it", please post within 24 after the "got it" if possible. We aim to play two turn sets / week.

I would like us to test something that a lot of other teams practice: a pre-play-plan. Before you start playing, please post a short plan for your turns set, including the following topics: builds, military activity per theatre, tile improvements, research, civic switches, diplomatic actions and miscellaneously. You don't need to write a novel. A sentence or two for each topic will suffice. Lets take it from there and see how it falls out. Hopefully this will enable each player to feel more responsible and active. It is not intended to replace the incredible amount of interference advice from the rest of us :lol: The PPP-template can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6421531&postcount=1426)

One other thing I would like us to test is a mid-turn-set upload. If you are playing while other are online, please upload and the rest of us can review the save.

I don't want the above to be a burden, so feel free to use it and we can evaluate half way into the game if these ideas are good or not.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. Since the captain has a memory capacity of a demented gold fish, I urge you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humour, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language (LC for example use American English). The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when Gnejs (aka Mr UN) screws up.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the SGOTM4 and SGOTM5 thread when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach consensus is resolved by the active player. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city :blush: Don’t be afraid making mistakes though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though :shifty: )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats and combat vs other promotions.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you :lol:

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to polute the great person pool. Please respect LC’s micro management plans. We brought him to tears last game when we whipped a city on the wrong turn :cry: .

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone one receives a copy (including jesusin - the lurker)

Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for Team Murky Waters is to end among the top three teams. The ambition is to grab the silver laurel and the vision is to win the gold.

This is the motto of the Captain: "We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players."

Ensure that your autosave config is set every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 1. This will reduce future confusion.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn/year that is stated by the event log. Research for example is completed at the end of a turn. The pop up thus shows the turn after the tech is learned.

When the game is over, and the staff has confirmed it's over, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, and the staff has confirmed it, you are free to post in their threads as well.

Ok, if you have bothered to read this far, you are eligible to either a) ignore this crap or b) provide valuable comments (please email me at captain.murky_waters@dev.null)

* Guidelines 5-7 does not apply to our game. You are free to upload [U]before /U] the end of your last turn. You can "get it" without first opening the save.

4000 BC - 3100 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6268275&postcount=62) (klarius, page 1-4) Settle 1SE, build worker and warrior, Bronze Working completed, met Mansa, Hannibal and Alex. Detected Mansa land. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281770&postcount=142)Basic analysis by LC. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6253978&postcount=17)
Discussion priorities (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6258329&postcount=23)
Start or 1SE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6265301&postcount=46)
Settle on gold (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6269523&postcount=80)
Pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6266985&postcount=56)


3100 BC - 2560 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6287060&postcount=194) (LC, page 4-10) Axe + 2 warriors sent towards Timbuktu and captures the city. Mansa is no more!!! Agriculture and A.H. completed.
Various ideas on how to inhibit/defeat our three neighbors are discussed. There are two options: either send all axes to one AI to kill, or send one axe to each for pillage mission. What shall we do with our warriors? How shall we micromanage? How soon shall we build our settler? What shall we research? (agriculture->AH, hunting->archery etc).
LC's first MM-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6271308&postcount=93)
Murky's pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6272484&postcount=100) (good summary)
A lot of graph gazing resulted in a pretty advance prediction of what the AI has done so far. Mandatory read for those who wants to learn more about the graphs: post 98 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6272150&postcount=98), AI initial build extracted from graphs (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281109&postcount=141), post 144 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281931&postcount=144), post 145 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281952&postcount=145), post 146 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281999&postcount=146), detailed analysis (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6283460&postcount=163), post 167 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284121&postcount=167)
LC's feeble attempt to explain our strategy. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6272834&postcount=102)
LC's second (feeble) attempt to explain our strategy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6275617&postcount=116)
jesusin's (feeble) attempt to explain our strategy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6275999&postcount=117)
LC's first pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6280030&postcount=134) (Murky skipped due to computer trouble)
Even more options by LC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6283503&postcount=164)
Erkons Grand Unified Strategy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284151&postcount=168) rev 0.9.1
klarius' turn set proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284163&postcount=169)
LC's second pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284391&postcount=180)


2560 BC - 2440 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6299950&postcount=290) - 2120 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6307592&postcount=313) (Mîtiu, page 10-16) Hinduism founded in Timbuktu. Carthage revealed. Mysticism and Polytheism completed.
Next step is to find the other two AI. The discussion is divided into the upcoming turn set and the long term strategy. Everyone disagrees with everything...
LC's turn set proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6288799&postcount=216)
Erkon elaborates on REX (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6290036&postcount=220)
Gnejs' turn set proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6293559&postcount=237)
LC's 2:nd turn set proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6294402&postcount=241)
klarius' plans for the future (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6295754&postcount=251)
Erkon's plans for the future (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6296333&postcount=271)


2120 BC - 1960 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6314391&postcount=377) - 1930 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6331971&postcount=536) - 1660 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6333618&postcount=582) (Gnejs, page 16-30) Wheel, Pottery and Priesthood completed, Athens and Sparta revealed. Coast notices west of London.

LC proposes the 1st Annual Murky Waters BC Astro Challenge (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6316121&postcount=385). This turns out to occupy our minds for a major part of the rest of the game: how to get Astronomy before 1AD. The basic idea is to

Build the Oracle (for CoL & Caste)
Build the Pyramids (for Representation)
Run scientists to get 3 Great Scientists to lightbulb Optics and Astronomy

Most of the future discussion is focused on getting Astro as quick as possible, and endless variations are proposed. The plans at this stage span 97 turns... The most hilarious moment in this SGOTM was after Gnejs' first turn when we decided to rock the boat and attack Athens instead of following our elaborate plans :rotfl:
The process of determining the turn set plan is extremely confusing. We all throw ideas like madmen and suddenly Gnejs come up with his pre-play-plan. It's magic, it's woodoo, it's pure chaos, and then ..... a plan!
Erkon's plan for the game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6313608&postcount=351)
Gnejs' pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6313663&postcount=352)
Gnejs' second pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6332497&postcount=553) (or actually mid-play-plan)


1960 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6341652&postcount=685) - 1270 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6342519&postcount=741) - 1210 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6346756&postcount=771) (Erkon, page 30-39) Writing complete, Athens captured, Oracle learns CoL, Confucianism founded in Athens.
Just to put this turn set into the context and to get a feeling of what expectations the team had on the Captain:
"You're assigned to transport duty" - LC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6332691&postcount=559)
"The only sad part is that we won't be founding Confucianism anywhere useful." - Gnejs (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6333096&postcount=566)
"Most boring turnset of the whole game..." - LC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6335852&postcount=609)
Erkon's pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6337275&postcount=629)
Verdict by LC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6346869&postcount=772)
Praise from Gnejs (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6346928&postcount=773)
"probably the best turnset ever seen" - Mîtiu (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6347810&postcount=774)


1210 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6349617&postcount=808) - 940 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6349829&postcount=814)(klarius, page 39-41) Masonry learned, Sparta razed, Greeks defeated
klarius notice culture to the west (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348231&postcount=775)
klarius pre-play-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6348793&postcount=788)


940 BC - 805 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6393565&postcount=1274) (Murky, page 41 - 64) Extensive discussion on how to get back to the BC Astro Challenge. Where do we settle the next cities? Monotheism learned.
Erkon present the most elaborated plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6357788&postcount=882)so far.
LC presents his first plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6358747&postcount=897)
LC presents his second (improved?) plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6365821&postcount=945)
Erkon's feeble attempt (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6367218&postcount=976)to stop the builders from taking over this game
Gnejs' brilliant analysis (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6370601&postcount=1053)of scientist turns / excess food.
LC presents alternative city sites (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6371023&postcount=1056)
LC's most elaborate Pre-Play-Plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6388839&postcount=1251) ever!


805 BC - 640 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6405972&postcount=1366) (LC, page 64 - 69) Replan due to misplacement of FP City. Decision to gamble and rely on GS from Timbuktu. Mathematics learned.
LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6399017&postcount=1340)


640 BC - 535 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6430002&postcount=1441) (Mîtiu, page 69 - 73) Pyramids completed. Switch to Representation.
Mîtiu's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6427549&postcount=1428)
Gnejs' comments (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6427645&postcount=1429)on PPP
LC's comments (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6428898&postcount=1439)on PPP

535 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6436519&postcount=1505) - 400 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6437048&postcount=1523) (Gnejs, page 69 - 77) Carthage captured. Sailing learned.
Gnejs' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6434533&postcount=1469)


400 BC - 250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6451936&postcount=1616) (Erkon, page 77 - 81) Once again the Captain performed above expectations. Utica razed, Hannibal destroyed, Iron connected. Calendar and Iron Working learned.
Erkon's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6443278&postcount=1578)


250 BC - 55 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6461573&postcount=1660) (klarius, page 81 - 83) GE born in Athens, GS in Timbuktu! Perfect. Hunting, Metal Casting, Machinery, Compass learned.
LC's ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6454686&postcount=1623)on the turnset
Erkon's view (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6455025&postcount=1628)on the turnset
klarius PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6456837&postcount=1638)


55 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6478539&postcount=1703) - 95 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6480516&postcount=1723) (Murky, page 83 - 87) Optics and Astronomy learned, met Saladin and Ragnar. War!
LC's view (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6467930&postcount=1681)on the future
Murky's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6475060&postcount=1694)
LC's plan for the Golden Walls (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6475251&postcount=1695)(Overflow goes into gold)
Murky's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6480516&postcount=1723)for second part of turn set


95 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6487299&postcount=1775) - 260 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6490883&postcount=1797) (LC, page 87 - 90) Nidaros and Haithabu captured, raze Bjørgvin, Phrygian and Ecbatana. Archery and Construction learned. Revolt to Slavery & Police State. Met Cyrus (war!)
LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6482738&postcount=1748) for first part of TS
LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6488043&postcount=1781)for second part of TS


260 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6511180&postcount=1875) - 290 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6511296&postcount=1880) - 395 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6513388&postcount=1886) (Mîtiu, page 90 - 96) Arbela and Tarsus razed
Mîtiu's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6509255&postcount=1871)


395 AD - 530 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6519578&postcount=1914) (Gnejs, page 96) Persepolis captured, Birka, Susa, Uppsala, Pasargadae, Medina, Zapotec, Damascus, Badhdad razed. Mecca captured. Ragnar, Cyrus and Saladin are defeated.
Gnejs's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6514672&postcount=1892)


klarius korner - klarius the klearsighted explains the game mechanics for the ignorant six:Behavior of exploring AI-warriors. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6255523&postcount=18)
Effect on AI when DoW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6270462&postcount=89)
Effect on AI build when entering AI land (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6276423&postcount=120), Klarification (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6277276&postcount=126)
Effect on DoW in Always War setting (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284026&postcount=166)
Barb spawning explained (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6284334&postcount=177)
AI military unit build, part I (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6320476&postcount=420)
AI military unit build, part II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6321027&postcount=424)
AI military unit build, part III (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6339765&postcount=659)
Ocean tile produce rule (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6339804&postcount=660)
AI military unit build, part IV (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6339961&postcount=671)
Power graph explained (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6281931&postcount=144)

Roster:

klarius
murky
LC
Mîtiu
Gnejs
Erkon

Leader/Civ characteristics:
Leader Trait1 Trait2 UU Unique Building Start techs
Churchill Charismatic Protective Redcoat Stock Exchange Fishing Mining
Hannibal Financial Charismatic Numidian Cav Coton (harbour)
Mansa Musa Spiritual Financial Skirmisher Mint (Forge)
Alexander Philosophical Aggressive Phalanx Odeon (Colosseum)


Traits explained
Churchill +1 happin./city, -25% XP for promotion, +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower. free Drill 1 + City Garrison 1 archery + gunpowder, 2x production speed walls, castle

Unique Units explained
Redcoat replaces Riflemen and the difference is irrelevant since we're never going to build one...
Numidian Cavalry replaces Horse Archers and has +50% against melee, and starts with Flanking I
Skirmisher replaces Archer and has 4 strength
Phalanx replaces Spear and has 5 strength and +25 hills defense bonus

Suitable tech paths

Note that the order can be adjusted to circumstances

The Wheel
Priesthood (if we want Oracle) EDIT: yes, we wanted
Pottery
Masonry (if we want the Pyramids, also needed for construction) EDIT: yes, we wanted
Writing
Mathematics - 535 : +20% : 446 raw :science:
Sailing - 214 : +20% : 178 raw :science:
Calendar - 750 : +20% : 625 raw :science:
Metal Casting – 964 : +20% : 803 raw :science:
Code of Laws (from Oracle)
Iron Working - 429 : +20% : 357 raw :science:
Construction - 750 : +20% : 625 raw :science:
Compass - 858 : +20% : 715 raw :science:
Machinery - 1501 : +20% : 1253 raw :science:
Optics (1 GS) - 1287 : +20% : 1072 raw :science:
Astronomy (2 GS)

Techs to avoid for lightbulbing Astronomy : Meditation, Civil Service

Also note that Alphabet come before Machinery, so if we have spare GS, we can research the Alphabet and lightbulb Machinery, although the gain will be ~480 beakers.

Well, I'm here.
First decision (even before where to settle :crazyeye:):
Warrior rush or peaceful development first?
Prince level there should be no danger to let the capital undefended for quite some time. And there is a chance to hit a capital with 3 warriors while it is defended by only 1 (which is a pretty high probability of win). But you cannot meet the others long before your mini SoD arrives, or they will build another warrior (or an archer already). So that's quite a gamble with blindly stumbling into the wild. Warrior rush means settling the first turn and build 2 warriors ASAP IMO. Don't look on growth but work a forested hill.

For peaceful, I would recommend researching BW. Grow to 2 while partially building a warrior, then build worker and pop-rush when BW comes in. Should give worker the same turn as building it first, but already revolted to slavery and a few hammers in a warrior. There moving the settler towards the banana is about equal to settling in place, because this allows BW one turn faster.
Settling on the dyes is also a possibility for the additional commerce. This will give BW the fastest but still doesn't allow a faster worker, because there is no 3 food tile in the inner circle.

Checking in. Hi klarius, Erkon! :)

Is there any risk that we start isolated? That would change our strategy a bit I guess.

Checking in.

Conquest again isn't it?

I think we are in a hurry to settle by the coast and send an exploring Galley to see if we will need Astronomy or not. That's a bit later in the game, but I wanted to mention it now.

Hi guys!

THere are 12 possible map types not even considering Gyathaar's changes, from massive continents, where AIs seem to fall on the same landmass, to archipelago, where they might be separated or far apart. We can either gamble or adopt a strategy that works for different possibilities. Conquest may be the fastest, but maybe Gyathaar did try to set it up to make cultural a possibility. We don't know yet.

I think our opening strategy should consider getting the second gold mine developed asap. Is that BW first?

I think our opening strategy should consider getting the second gold mine developed asap. Is that BW first?
I'm not even sure we want to work the first gold mine :crazyeye: soon, but the fastest way to a settler is pretty sure BW.

In recent GOTMs and the last SG, Gyathaar has been pretty obvious about his layouts. Pigs or cows in starting position = AH best starting tech. I think the two gold resources is a pretty clear indicator that he thinks we need to tech pretty far to win this game. We're guessing of course, but Big Pig's attitude has been pretty right so far, namely that these SGs are made to enable the weaker teams to survive the start and get along pretty well. That means no AIs on our landmass or at least not very close.

By not working gold mines too soon are you thinking REX (use better settler/wkr producing tiles) or using mines for rapid mobilization?

By not working gold mines too soon are you thinking REX (use better settler/wkr producing tiles) or using mines for rapid mobilization?
Well, either. Gold is just not good for anything but commerce. We don't have a lot food around. On the other side we can grow pretty big wrt to happiness.

Hi,

I've run the screenshot through PSP and I think I spy a water tile to the west.

The plains hill 1SE is attractive to settle.

I think we are in a hurry to settle by the coast and send an exploring Galley to see if we will need Astronomy or not. That's a bit later in the game, but I wanted to mention it now.

Hm. Determining whether we need Astronomy is good. but meeting distant AIs is bad. As soon as they meet us and each other they will start racking up mutual struggle points.

We don't know how many AIs there are, do we?

Now we do know:six rivals.That's not too crowded for a standard-sized map.

Here's a test map (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-4000test_map_.CivWarlordsSave) if anyone wants to play around with the resources we can see.

EDIT: Updated with plains hills for gold.

Checking in too ! :)

Try to figure out ( yet ) how to use Warlords with modified .dll on BtS ... :))

Regards

Here are samples of all 12 map types (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG6_map_matrix_selection.jpg). (Note that massive, normal, and snaky = massive continents,...). Obviously we don't know much yet, but it may give us some insight as we explore. We can start isolated or on same land mass as all AIs on most maps, if not all. Jungle tiles are uniformly at the equator, so it appears we're just N of the equator. Both horses and copper appear occasionally on grass tiles near the equator, so we can't predict odds on AH and BW.

Our map has 1220 land tiles
Domination 64% of land tiles
Our capital starts with +6 :) and +2 :health: (minimum)
AIs start with 2 units and get a 10% discount on builds (+10:hammers: at start!)

In my tests, AIs that start with 2 warriors become a pain in the ass around 2500bc and pillage everything in sight. I think we want to know who's on our land mass asap, so we can decide how many units we need.

Found a reference on Big and Small (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6037228&postcount=2)

The original warriors are explore units. They attack only at very good odds. So one can defend resources with just warriors against them.
I don't expect to have as many civs near as in LCs test map. We can only know when we are some time into the game.

Generally I favor the opening:
Research BW, grow to 2 while putting 11 hammers in warrior. Change to worker to be pop-rushed when BW comes in. Warrior stays near the capital, just lighting the nearby locations.

First move: warrior sw to see most what we would lose moving eastward and have a look on the water down there.
There are some points for settling se on the hill:
Hill, on the rivers, more river tiles including the river gold (connected w/o road), maybe freeing space for a coastal city by the other gold.
Downside:
One turn delay, jungle (but we have enough tiles for the time to IW, IMO) and what we lose by moving.
There maybe also some points for settling on dyes or 2s, if more resources come into play.

Hi just checking in. This looks doable.

I just had an idea. We could use the AW setting against the AI. What we do is first establish our perimeter, build up defenses then kill them like crazy. Assuming the AI still suffers WW with AW then it should eventually cripple their cities, making them easy targets.

Hi, I've been busy beating Lexad on WOTM15, so I have not yet started to look at this game. However, I've added a preliminary roster in post 4. I'm open to any suggestions.

We didn't have any lessons learned from SGOTM5. Please contribute with your opinions on what worked and what we can improve. Then I will put up the house rules welcome message in post #2.

klarius, I can't remember if you said anything last SG about those blue rings. Can we learn anything from them?

EDIT: On second thought, probably doesn't matter anyway, since Gyathaar modified the map.

Discussion priorities, as I see it:
1a. VC and/or
1b. Warrior's first move
2. Where to settle
3. Tech path

We might waste time discussing #2 and #3 before we know what our fat cross actually has (i.e., #1b). So maybe we should first discuss our warrior's move: a) SW, like klarius described; b) NE to see if NE NE is a food resource (this is only possible scenario that would justify settling on bananas, imo); c) E to gold to see what's SE; d) ???

On the tech path, can we run a rational process to determine whether to start with BW or Agri>AH? I can see klarius' point about the wkr and the 11:hammers: for the warrior. But a lot of winning games start by working food resources asap. What do we know? What assumptions can or should we make?

I think we want to kill every AI we meet asap. But I suspect there is 1 AI on our land at most. Maybe none with one or more visible across the water. For conquest, we may need astronomy or some long circuitous galley path to distant AIs. So what's the most rational tech path to start out with to maximize our chances, given that we have a number of possible scenarios?

Discussion priorities, as I see it:
1a. VC and/or
1b. Warrior's first move
2. Where to settle
3. Tech path


1. Cultural and Diplomatic are out. Time & Space would only give us a wooden spoon at best. Conquest might be the fastest but Domination would be easier to accomplish.

1b. I would move the warrior 1SW to see what is on the tiles south of the settler.

2. Unless there's something better, settling in place seems reasonable.

3. BW->Hunting->AH->Archery?

We need to know more about the landmass and AIs before we can make decisions on what to do about them.

I would say that the greatest challenge we have is whether we need astronomy or not. We thus need to explore the world enough to know. OTOH we don't want to explore if we can avoid it, since we don't want the DoW on us. So, how do we solve this? And when do we need to know? Will it have any effect the first 50 turns?

Has anyone checked how many tiles we need for domination?

BTW, how many of you have played Always War before? It's a very special experience...

My most painful memory is my conquest defeat when we played the Romans a couple of GOTMs ago.

klarius, when will the AI send out offensive units on Prince? You said we don't have to defend our capital at the start. I almost had a heart attack when I read that :eek: And even a scout can block a tile we want to work...

Domination = 64% of 1220 = 781 tiles.

1. Cultural and Diplomatic are out.

:cry: I would have liked a Cultural AW game. But I think you are right.:cry:


Erkon: the capital can't be empty or those exploring warriors will attack, as you most probably know. I had great fun losing the Roman AW GOTM.

I would say that the greatest challenge we have is whether we need astronomy or not. We thus need to explore the world enough to know. OTOH we don't want to explore if we can avoid it, since we don't want the DoW on us. So, how do we solve this? And when do we need to know? Will it have any effect the first 50 turns?


If we see no gems close by, or something similar, and if there's sea W, I would put our second city by the coast and send a couple of WB (or better Galleys) asap (after having the best tiles improved). If Astronomy is needed for Conquest we need to count tiles in our continent.
Now, I only play Vanilla, were the interAI war is not so likely, so I don't really mind so much giving them friendship bonuses.

PINK!

We have been given the pink colour in the Results graphs! BigPig would have loved that!

klarius, when will the AI send out offensive units on Prince? You said we don't have to defend our capital at the start. I almost had a heart attack when I read that :eek: And even a scout can block a tile we want to work...
I'm just assuming ;) that we have no neighbours that start with warriors. Then nobody will build attack units before they met us. They will start building a warrior, then a worker. As soon as they meet us they build a second garrison (switching away from worker). Only after that they can build a military unit to meet us.
Still this was meant for a warrior rush, the capital only building a steady stream of warriors. We would not defend the capital, but there would be warriors in the area.

Does anyone disagree with Warrior SW? If not, klarius could do that and we could get on with deciding where to settle.

Does anyone disagree with Warrior SW? If not, klarius could do that and we could get on with deciding where to settle.

Sounds fine to me.

Does anyone disagree with Warrior SW? If not, klarius could do that and we could get on with deciding where to settle.

I agree with Warrior SW

Has anyone played around with the practice save yet? We probably do need a better understanding of how always war will work out. Is it better to destroy them quickly or is it better to turtle up a bit first then strike?

My gut feeling is that we should go for early conquest. Since this is only on Prince they will only have weak troops guarding their cities in the early game. It will take them a while to get their resources hooked up. We should take advantage of that.

Warrior SW here we come:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/kl_wlsgotm6.jpg

Not much new. The banana sw is not such a strong tile.
We could still settle SE to get some space for a coastal gold-banana city.
A second city SE or E doesn't look attarctive currently with all that jungle. So if we want both gold we should better have the capital eastwards.

We could send the settler to the coastal hill n of the warrior then use the cow/gold for the next city.

W/o a sea resource I don't see a reason to trade the cow for a lot of jungle and coast.
It' still in place or SE IMO.

W/o a sea resource I don't see a reason to trade the cow for a lot of jungle and coast.
It' still in place or SE IMO.

Aha. I would settle in place in all games but AW. With AW on, maybe settling on hill SE and with river protecting the sides is a good idea. Is trading gold+banana for gold+settling on hill a good idea? I trully don't know.

By the way, isn't settling on dyes an option too?

I think we should settle 1SE. The extra production from the city is worth the loss of the forest. We can then work the banana from the start, and the gold will be connected directly when we mine it.

Has anyone played around with the practice save yet? We probably do need a better understanding of how always war will work out. Is it better to destroy them quickly or is it better to turtle up a bit first then strike?

My gut feeling is that we should go for early conquest. Since this is only on Prince they will only have weak troops guarding their cities in the early game. It will take them a while to get their resources hooked up. We should take advantage of that.

I intend to have a go at the practise save tonight. Otherwise, I have played a few AW games. Here are some observations:

1. The more AIs there are, the more difficult it becomes. They get friendly with each other pretty soon due to mutual struggle and start trading techs like crazy. Erkon and I foolishly tried AW in a GOTM, the one with Churchill and 17 AIs on a crowded map. Result: Total disaster, even though this was at a very low difficulty. I threw in the towel around 1000 AD when I still hadn't succeeded to keep a captured city for more than a few turns, and the AIs were staring to pull away in tech.

2. The AIs builds hordes of units which they endlessly send in a haphazard manner towards the player. Defending is very easy if there are some good hilled or forested chokepoints, otherwise they tend to select one target city (often but not always the same for each AI) and send their units towards this. In the Rome AW GOTM the AIs almost exclusively sent their units towards either my capital or those capitals that I captured along the way. Other cities were mainly left alone.
Perhaps klarius will have more info on how the AI "thinks" when it comes to AW and selecting targets.


Considering the above, I definitely think that we should go on the offensive from the start and keep increasing the pressure. The sooner we can rob an AI of production and research the less units we will have to kill before moving on to the next target. If we also can take out an AI or two before they meet the others our job will be much easier.
I think klarius' idea of a warrior rush makes sense. But it will only succeed if we actually manage to find an AI before they have archers or we lose steam.

Settle 1 SE or maybe on the dye.

I think we should settle 1SE. The extra production from the city is worth the loss of the forest. We can then work the banana from the start, and the gold will be connected directly when we mine it.That's a grass/hill. No extra :hammers: in the city center.

My concerns with settling on dyes or SE:
1. In one of my practice games the E bananas were overgrown with jungle before I could farm them and that was a Agri>AH variant! The SE gold could be overgrown by jungle also.
2. If we settle in place, we still have two tiles to the NW that might have a food resource on them. I think we need at least cows plus banana farm for growth, don't you?
3. Settle in place gives higher probability of getting horses or copper in fat cross.

EDIT: klarius, can you fog-gaze any tiles to the SE of the gold to see if the jungle continues?

What is your best guess if we settle on the blue circle gold? It would give us the cow and banna and instant gold happiness.

EDIT: klarius, can you fog-gaze any tiles to the SE of the gold to see if the jungle continues?
Well, it looks like jungle to me, but if it should be grass you cannot really see it in the fog. I'm pretty sure it doesn't change to forest.

Settle in place pros and cons:
FC horses: 6 non-river flat tiles (+2 covered w/forest)
FC copper: 7 non-river tiles (+3 forested)
Max 18:hammers: at pop7, pre-IW (assuming no jungle creep)
"guaranteed" to have gold and banana (no jungle creep), but 2nd gold city may suck
Settles Turn 0

Settle SE pros and cons:
FC horses: 4 non-river flats, (+1 w/forested tile)
FC copper: 5 non-river, (+1 forested, +1 jungled)
Max 12:hammers: pre-IW (unless we use forest or plains tiles), 18:hammers: post-IW
enables 2 good cities using both gold (at least after IW)
connected to mined gold w/o road
Gold(?) and banana tiles vulnerable to jungle creep (Can jungle gorw on plains/hills?)
+25% hill defense
Settles Turn 1

non-river tiles

Well, in the last SGOTM the horses were on the river. Resources are where Gyathaar means it makes sense.

I intend to have a go at the practise save tonight. Otherwise, I have played a few AW games. Here are some observations:

1. The more AIs there are, the more difficult it becomes. They get friendly with each other pretty soon due to mutual struggle and start trading techs like crazy. Erkon and I foolishly tried AW in a GOTM, the one with Churchill and 17 AIs on a crowded map. Result: Total disaster, even though this was at a very low difficulty. I threw in the towel around 1000 AD when I still hadn't succeeded to keep a captured city for more than a few turns, and the AIs were staring to pull away in tech.

2. The AIs builds hordes of units which they endlessly send in a haphazard manner towards the player. Defending is very easy if there are some good hilled or forested chokepoints, otherwise they tend to select one target city (often but not always the same for each AI) and send their units towards this. In the Rome AW GOTM the AIs almost exclusively sent their units towards either my capital or those capitals that I captured along the way. Other cities were mainly left alone.
Perhaps klarius will have more info on how the AI "thinks" when it comes to AW and selecting targets.


Considering the above, I definitely think that we should go on the offensive from the start and keep increasing the pressure. The sooner we can rob an AI of production and research the less units we will have to kill before moving on to the next target. If we also can take out an AI or two before they meet the others our job will be much easier.
I think klarius' idea of a warrior rush makes sense. But it will only succeed if we actually manage to find an AI before they have archers or we lose steam.That practice save was intended for playing around with what we see, that is, deciding whether we research BW first or beeline AH. I agree with klarius that we probably won't have that many AIs on our land mass. In fact, I doubt we'll have any (or maybe one far away, as in SG2).

I think the safest route, considering our current ignorance of a bunch of factors, is what klarius suggested on BW first and poprushing wkr asap. It sucks that we won't develop our cattle forever, but we may get lucky with copper in FC, and we're safe if a vagabond AI happens by, cuz we have our second warrior at half price.

In terms of settling, I think we'll need a strong port city asap, so settling SE and then NW later is optimum, IF we want to risk jungle creep fking us over bigtime.

EDIT: All in all, I prefer settling in place because it's safer in terms of jungle creep and that blue circle to the NW might mean there's another food in the FC. But I can go with SE too and it's fine with me if klarius goes with his own gut feeling. We may get another food resource with SE anyway. If we do get another food resource, then we might want to reconsider BW first.

Well, in the last SGOTM the horses were on the river. Resources are where Gyathaar means it makes sense.I know, that's why I mentioned that... ;) Do you know if jungle creeps on plains hills and if horse and copper resources can be under starting forest or jungle (ignoring the Gyathaar factor?

EDIT: Including river and jungle tiles:

In place:
11 flat tiles for horses; 15 tiles for copper

SE:
horses: 7 flat w/o jungle, 10 with jungle
copper: 11 tiles w/o junlge, 16 with

Finally, I've updated post #2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6247789&postcount=2) with the welcome message. There's a couple of changes that I want you to review and comment. Also, I would like us to agree how to handle turn numbers. My suggestions is that first turn = 1. Do you agree, or shall we set it to zero? Then I think we shall use the event log date when we refer to learned techs etc.

What is your best guess if we settle on the blue circle gold? It would give us the cow and banna and instant gold happiness.

The blue circle gold will give us one extra hammer in the city, but the gold is to valuable to settle on. The happiness cap is at six, yes? So, we don't need to connect the gold that quick.

The gold to the SE would give us 1 :hammers: and 1 :commerce: in city, and give us defense. It will take us two turns to settle though, and I doubt it's worth it.

Another idea is to settle on the banana 1E 1SE, which would give us one extra food in the capital. This will give us 10 :hammers: at size three (stagnant).

Settling on a gold hill does not give an extra hammer in the city center.
Settling on a river gold or dyes does give two extra commerce in the city center.

Settling on a gold hill does not give an extra hammer in the city center.
Settling on a river gold or dyes does give two extra commerce in the city center.

Perhaps I will withdraw to lurker status considering the random statements I produce :lol: Sorry for confusing you all... :blush:

I just assumed that gold on plains hills would qualify as the 2 :hammers: tile as for example ivory on plains :confused:

I think klarius's first suggestion of settling 1SE is sound. We can first work the 3F 1C tile until the border pop. This would also give us the worker and bronze working in the fewest turns, I think. With the early worker we can quickly get the gold mine improved which should give as a technical advantage over the AI. Next, we expand to the to the other gold hill for more teching power. We might get a 3rd city founded before the rush begins.

Finally, I've updated post #2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6247789&postcount=2) with the welcome message. I was thinking that for rules, all we need is:

1. Play smart,
2. Don't make any stupid moves.
3. Don't listen to idiots.

Then again, since BP isn't playing, I guess we don't even need those rules. ;)

I prefer starting on T0, but I could get used to T1 if y'all prefer it.

I don't think there will come out much more of the pre-game discussion. But I give you the chance :).
I will play tomorrow morning.
Plan is:
Settle SE.
Research BW then start agriculture.
Grow-build worker (rush)- complete warrior.

This is all pretty independent from the long term strategy.

I think we need to get going and find out how the situation is (how many and which civs we meet soon).

Okay, here're my last comments. I ran 4 tests to 2350bc. Settle in place and SE, research BW>agri>AH and Agri>AH>BW. Results:

1. SE + BW = 1 wkr, 4 warriors, poprush settler in 6t. Wheel finished several turns earlier.
2. SE + Agri... = 1 wkr, 4 warriors, poprush settler in 1 turn, forest gone. (farm bananas>mine gold> pasture cows). Wheel finished several turns earlier.
3. In place + agri = 1 wkr, 4 warriors, poprush settler in 1 turn. 3 forest remain in FC. (Mine gold>pasture cows>farm bananas). Wheel finished several turns earlier.
4. In place + BW... = 2 wkrs, 3 warriors, poprush settler in 2 or 3 turns, 4th warrior turn after. WHeel 5turns to completion.

SE + BW is the least good, because not enough forest to chop and :health: becomes a problem arleady at pop4. Agri>AH works well in both places. BW works the best of all for production but only in place, but researches much more slowly.

Those are my tests, for what it's worth, and of course, that's without horses or erkopper in the fat cross. It's very important to keep the warrior near the capital if there are AIs. With the warrior garrisoned int eh captial, AIs leave us alone. I garrisoned warriors on all improved tiles.

I state that gold and jungle are never in the same tile. But please, don't break LC's rule #3.

Agri-AH is common sense and surest and well known path. I'd prefer a BW start, basically because I never play that way in my games and I would learn more.


I have no strong feelings about where to settle.

The starting position looks very green. For some reason, lots of green almost always means nearby horses and lots of yellow = nearby copper in my games.

Although on closer look there seems to be some mod that changes the colours from standard... :)

Settle in place seams to have a slight advantage looking only at the capital, while 1SE will enable city #2 to the west (on the banana?). So I don't have any preference between settling in place or on the hill. Nor do I have any preference between BW compared to Agri-AH. The health cap 1SE will increase to 5 as soon as we have connected the cows, yes?

From LC's analysis, settling in place looks good.

Played. The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Murky_Waters_SG006_BC3100_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Summary:
Settler SE. Not optimal, but I just like the location.
Met Hannibal, Alex and Mansa :eek:. All hunters as expected, but 3 that soon is more than I expected.
We have copper :) hooked.

Our land:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/kl_wlsgotm6_1.jpg

Turn 0 4000BC:
Worker SW, Now what.
Sure in place is a bit better for capital development, but I just don't like that we will have no coastal city for a long time. So settler SE.

Turn 1 3970:
Settle London->warrior. Science BW.

Turn 2-11 3940-3670:
nothing new

Turn 12 3640:
London grows. Change to worker.

Turn 13 3610:
Buddhism FIADL.

Turn 14-15 3580-3550:
Yawn

Turn 16 3520:
Meet hannibals scout in the NE. War. Scout dies.

Turn 17 3490:
Hannibals second scout comes from the south towards the capital.

Turn 18-19 3460-3430:
ZZZZ.

Turn 20 3400:
Alex' scout in the NW. Dead! We have declared on Mansa, but I don't see him.

turn 21 3370:
BW comes in. Revolt! Copper is SW of the capital (on the river ;)) Research agri.

Turn 22 3340:
We are in slavery. Pop-rush. Mansa now showing his scout near the capital.

Turn 23 3310:
Worker goes to copper. Work copper for a turn, delaying growth, but get the warrior faster (sligthly nervous).

Turn 24 3280:
Worker mines.

Turn 25-27 3250-3190

Turn 28 3160:
Warrior completes. Put hammers in barracks, as copper will soon be hooked.

Turn 29 3130:
Copper hooked. Change to axe.

Turn 30 3100:
Units move.

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt

Turn 1, 3970 BC: London has been founded.

Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 11, 3670 BC: (Animal Combat: +30%)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 15, 3550 BC: You have declared war on Hannibal!
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 15, 3550 BC: (Animal Combat: +30%)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 15, 3550 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior (1.95) vs Hannibal's Scout (1.50)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Combat Odds: 77.1%
Turn 16, 3520 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (72/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Hannibal's Scout is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Hannibal's Scout is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (55/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Hannibal's Scout is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Hannibal's Scout is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (38/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (21/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Hannibal's Scout is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 16, 3520 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Hannibal's Scout!

Turn 19, 3430 BC: You have declared war on Alexander!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: Churchill's Warrior (1.98) vs Alexander's Scout (1.50)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 77.7%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (74/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 16 (58/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Alexander's Scout is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Alexander's Scout!
Turn 20, 3400 BC: You have declared war on Mansa Musa!
Turn 20, 3400 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 21, 3370 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 21, 3370 BC: Churchill adopts Slavery!
Turn 21, 3370 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 22, 3340 BC: You have trained a Worker in London. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 30, 3100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!


Turn 1/660 (3970 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:35:36]
London founded
London begins: Warrior (22 turns)
Research begun: Bronze Working (20 Turns)

Turn 2/660 (3940 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:39:03]

Turn 3/660 (3910 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:39:49]

Turn 4/660 (3880 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:41:38]

Turn 5/660 (3850 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:42:02]

Turn 6/660 (3820 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:42:15]

Turn 7/660 (3790 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:42:28]

Turn 8/660 (3760 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:42:37]
London's borders expand

Turn 9/660 (3730 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:42:48]

Turn 10/660 (3700 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:43:08]

Turn 11/660 (3670 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:43:21]
London grows: 2
While defending in the wild, Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Panther (Prob Victory: 98.8%)

Turn 12/660 (3640 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:43:35]
London begins: Worker (18 turns)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 13/660 (3610 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:46:06]

Turn 14/660 (3580 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:48:02]

Turn 15/660 (3550 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:48:29]
Contact made: Carthaginian Empire
While defending in the wild, Warrior defeats (1.56/2): Barbarian Wolf (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 16/660 (3520 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:50:11]
Warrior promoted: Combat I
While attacking in the wild, Warrior defeats (0.42/2): Carthaginian Scout (Prob Victory: 77.1%)

Turn 17/660 (3490 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:55:36]
Warrior promoted: Shock

Turn 18/660 (3460 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:57:07]

Turn 19/660 (3430 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:58:33]
Contact made: Greek Empire
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 20/660 (3400 BC) [18-Dec-2007 12:58:47]
While attacking in the wild, Warrior defeats (1.16/2): Greek Scout (Prob Victory: 77.7%)
Churchill(England) declares war on Mansa Musa(Mali)
Contact made: Malinese Empire
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 21/660 (3370 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:04:51]
Research begun: Agriculture (125 Turns)
Warrior promoted: Combat II
Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 22/660 (3340 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:07:44]
London finishes: Worker

Turn 23/660 (3310 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:13:38]

Turn 24/660 (3280 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:19:35]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 25/660 (3250 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:26:57]

Turn 26/660 (3220 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:27:52]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 27/660 (3190 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:28:18]
London finishes: Warrior
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 28/660 (3160 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:29:00]
London begins: Barracks (75 turns)
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 29/660 (3130 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:32:32]
A Mine was built near London
London begins: Axeman (52 turns)
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 30/660 (3100 BC) [18-Dec-2007 13:38:45]

Rock'n Roll! Three AI!! Kill'em all!!!
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:
:aargh: :ar15:

Well played, klarius! Looks like Gyathaar scrapped the cultural VC idea...very nice of him to safeguard our copper hill! I think this was the right place to settle, even if horses are out of the FC. We need to find our victims and wipe them out before they can take any deep breaths.

Did you notice where the scouts came from? Did one come from the west isthmus? If W Isthmus is isolated, we could set up a production city there.

@Erkon: Sorry to say this, but you may not get a turnset... :) warmongering that is...

Nobody was coming from the west. I think that might be our private peninsula, but that can be established soon (warriors around).

Looks good karlius. We lucked out on getting copper in the fat cross. I think we should take advantage of that with an axe rush. We should first found at least the western city to act as a choke point.

Look slike most other teams settled in place. That means we have an advantage because we don't need the Wheel to hook up either copper or horses, whatever they researched first (AH or BW). We should leverage that advantage with some axes, as Murky recommends. I think with AW, our first priority is to attempt to shut off all AI resources. Let them send waves of archers...If we hook up the gold and can get AH and Wheel fast enough then, we could send a pillager chariot N and send our first two axes SE and E through the jungle. Otherwise 3 pillager axes, SE, E, and N. If we do 3 axes, do we send the first N, to prevent fast chariots from coming down on us?

EDIT: What's the fastest way to build 3 axes?

For the next few turns:
Let the worker pre-chop the forest until agri comes in. Then irrigate the nanas. After that I would mine the grass hill (not the gold) to maximize production at size 3.
I don't want to work the gold before we have the cow. And we have to defend the cow against pillaging so we need some real military first.
As the worker has enough to do around the capital I would research also hunting before AH. We should get an extra coin on it because we know 3 civs with hunting.

So that means that I'm up next? If so then I'll post a got it later tonight. I do want to refine our strategy as much as possible. We should try to maximize every advantage possible.

I'll make a new test map tonight, so we can test how to maximize our advantages. I'd like to get an idea of how fast we grow and how to optimize the worker turns. Working the gold gives the same production as the grass hill, but exchanges 1:food: for an 8:commerce: bag of coins. Add on the 40% bonus and we're almost doubling the speed to research AH. The sooner the cows are pastured, the sooner we can focus on growth.

EDIT: For protecting our developed tiles, I think we should bring back the exporing warrior for the copper and the first axe can be for the gold/bananas. The 2 warriors will protect their tiles well for now.

@jesusin: Hunting is for spears to protect our developed resource tiles and axe stacks. In Warlords, AI chariots are deadly for pillaging and for killing axes. Hunting also gives us an additional 20% bonus when researching AH.

For the next few turns:
Let the worker pre-chop the forest until agri comes in. Then irrigate the nanas. After that I would mine the grass hill (not the gold) to maximize production at size 3.
I don't want to work the gold before we have the cow. And we have to defend the cow against pillaging so we need some real military first.
As the worker has enough to do around the capital I would research also hunting before AH. We should get an extra coin on it because we know 3 civs with hunting.

I am not sure i follow you.

Why do we want hunting at all?
Why prechop and not chop?
Why not mine gold first thing? When producing a settler I would like to be working the gold.

We will never trade so we have to self research everything. Hunting is a prerequisite of AH, so its worth 20% bonus on AH research. And it's prerequisite of archery which we should also research at some time for cheap protective archers. So if we don't need AH right away because I'm reluctant to pasture the cow before we can protect it (and the worker). We should research hunting first.

Why chop the forest now. That delays the farm on the bananas and I rather would save it for the settler.

Gold is one food less in the settler production. I would only work it for a settler if we delay it to later.

Settling on a gold hill does not give an extra hammer in the city center.
Settling on a river gold or dyes does give two extra commerce in the city center.
Random Lurker's Comment:

This is both right and wrong. Settling on a gold hill does not in and of itself grant the +1 hammer. But settling on a plains gold hill like you have here does give +1 hammer and +2 commerce in the city center (would be +3 if you were financial).

We will never trade so we have to self research everything. Hunting is a prerequisite of AH, so its worth 20% bonus on AH research. And it's prerequisite of archery which we should also research at some time for cheap protective archers. So if we don't need AH right away because I'm reluctant to pasture the cow before we can protect it (and the worker). We should research hunting first.

Why chop the forest now. That delays the farm on the bananas and I rather would save it for the settler.

Gold is one food less in the settler production. I would only work it for a settler if we delay it to later.

I usually skip Archery, but in this game it will be useful.

Regarding the gold, I wouldn't like to work it while growing, but I would like to work it when "settlering". It is only 1 "hammer" less and it is a lot of gold more, I think it is a good trade.if the tech we are researching will provide more hammers or more food (like AH, for example).



What are we going to produce now and for how long? When do we start on the settler?

One thing we have to be careful not to do is to send all our military to one target, leaving us vulnerable to attack from another rival.

Ultimately, we need to prioritize :hammers:. For now, we also need :food: and research (=:commerce:). The available resource tiles are:

gold/plains/hill/river = 3:hammers: + 8:commerce: = 11 commodity units
copper/grass/hill/river = 1:food: + 5 :hammers: + 1:commerce: = 7 commodity units
cows/grass = 4:food: + 2:hammers: = 6 commodity units
farmed bananas/grass/river = 4:food: + 1:commerce: = 5 commodity units
grass hill = 1:food: + 3:hammers: = 4 commodity units.

The gold tile is by far our most powerful tile. At this point, we basically have three power tiles, 1 quasi-power tile, and 1 grass hill. Ideally, we will be working the gold, copper, and cows until we have met our research quota.

Great development! Well played, klarius! :goodjob:

I never got aroung to run that test game last night, but one thing to test is how soon the AI gets 1) archery, 2) AH, and 3) BW. We have a golden opportunity for a rush now with axes available so soon. Wonder about the distances though. We met the AIs on turns 15, 19 and 20. That could mean that they are fairly far away if we are unlucky.

We definitely won't need archery now that we have copper. We might even be able to skip Hunting since Chariots have no bonus when defending. A couple of roads on tiles we wish to protect should be enough to let a few roaming axes handle any pillagers for now.

Gnejs, what do yo uthink about sending out 1 axe per AI to bomb them into keep them in the stone age?

Random Lurker's Comment:

This is both right and wrong. Settling on a gold hill does not in and of itself grant the +1 hammer. But settling on a plains gold hill like you have here does give +1 hammer and +2 commerce in the city center (would be +3 if you were financial).

As a Random Lurker, please refrain from offering any team information of this kind. I do not have the time or inclination to verify that such assistance is "clean" and unspoiled by visits to other team threads.

The teams should rely on their own knowledge, skill and resources to play the game.

Thanks, AlanH. The last thing we need is "help" that disqualifies us. Luckily, killercane got it wrong anyway. I just tested it on a test map. Settling on the gold/plain/hil puts this in teh city center:

2:food:
2:hammers:
1:commerce:

In other words, it ignores the gold and gives us the plains hil :hammers: bonus, for whatever reason.

I think we should send out one warrior per AI to find them in the first place. As we don't have hunting we can still build warriors. Warriors on a good defense tile should be good enough to hamper the AI.
So I would build 2 warriors, 1 axe, settler @ size 3 (chopping 2 forests in it).
Work copper and banana at size 2. If it doesn't work out exactly like I think, MM (cow) to coincide growth with the second mine available. With the 2 chops we can afford to take the gold mine as it will delay the settler only 0-1 turn (depending on overflow). By that we have ample research power to get to AH (even with hunting) by the time the worker gets available.

Gnejs, what do yo uthink about sending out 1 axe per AI to bomb them into keep them in the stone age?

Sounds like an excellent idea! Even better if we follow up with more axes against one AI at a time.

I think we should send out one warrior per AI to find them in the first place. As we don't have hunting we can still build warriors. Warriors on a good defense tile should be good enough to hamper the AI.
So I would build 2 warriors, 1 axe, settler @ size 3 (chopping 2 forests in it).
Work copper and banana at size 2. If it doesn't work out exactly like I think, MM (cow) to coincide growth with the second mine available. With the 2 chops we can afford to take the gold mine as it will delay the settler only 0-1 turn (depending on overflow). By that we have ample research power to get to AH (even with hunting) by the time the worker gets available.

Those warriors wouldn't be able to do much except scouting and defending. Axes can pillage and capture escorted settlers or even a city. Yes they cost more hammers but we will have use of those hammers for many more turns.

Btw, do we really need a second city? One possibility would be to build axes for a rush instead.

Those warriors wouldn't be able to do much except scouting and defending. Axes can pillage and capture escorted settlers or even a city. Yes they cost more hammers but we will have use of those hammers for many more turns.

Btw, do we really need a second city? One possibility would be to build axes for a rush instead.

I think we'll eventually want the rice and other gold hill to support our military.

Those warriors wouldn't be able to do much except scouting and defending. Axes can pillage and capture escorted settlers or even a city. Yes they cost more hammers but we will have use of those hammers for many more turns.

They can prevent the AI from hooking up copper or horses. And by that there may not be anything to pillage :).
And still, we don't know where the AIs are. I rather have the axes later bee-line to the fight and have the warriors do the scouting now.

I think we should send out one warrior per AI to find them in the first place. As we don't have hunting we can still build warriors. Warriors on a good defense tile should be good enough to hamper the AI.
So I would build 2 warriors, 1 axe, settler @ size 3 (chopping 2 forests in it).
Work copper and banana at size 2. If it doesn't work out exactly like I think, MM (cow) to coincide growth with the second mine available. With the 2 chops we can afford to take the gold mine as it will delay the settler only 0-1 turn (depending on overflow). By that we have ample research power to get to AH (even with hunting) by the time the worker gets available.I have bad experiences trying to use warrios to pillage. AI archers eat them alive.

If we're going to build more warriors and work the bananas to pop2 and then pop3, then we'll need to forego Hunting for now, don't you think?

I'll test both klarius' and Gnejs' variants tonight.

klarius - nice play! :goodjob:

One day you will have to explain the logic of sending out scouting units in an AW game :lol:, since the AI's are now in war mode :eek:

Murky, you're up next. Please plan for 15 turns. I don't want this game to be over before it's my turn set :cry:

Also, please provide a pre-play-plan when you feel comfortable. There are a lot of choices we have to make, such as:

Shall we build another city or not
Shall we build any more warriors
Shall we send warriors or axes to search for the enemy
What MM shall we do to achieve whatever we want

Don't feel rushed to play. This is probably one of the most important turn sets in the game. No pressure :lol:

klarius - nice play! :goodjob:

One day you will have to explain the logic of sending out scouting units in an AW game :lol:, since the AI's are now in war mode :eek:


First I didn't scout far and it didn't speed up contact much. In the meantime all AI visited our capital with scouts.
But what's bad to put the AI to war mode. They will break their worker build for another garrison and may build a barracks before a settler. That slows them down quite a bit.

First I didn't scout far and it didn't speed up contact much. In the meantime all AI visited our capital with scouts.
But what's bad to put the AI to war mode. They will break their worker build for another garrison and may build a barracks before a settler. That slows them down quite a bit.

Thanks for the explanation :) It makes sense. It's just that was worried that we could not handle it. As it turns out (with copper in FC and "only" 3 neighbors) it will probably work out great.

So what do we need to build? Chop barracks? Build only axes? Or mix them with spears, archers and perhaps chariots?

I prefer that we wait with building the settler until we have killed at least one of the AI. We're in kill'em-all mode!

Has everyone noticed this post:
I did try to make it clear that Gyathaar didn't divulge a lot of information about this game:

However, as a bonus for those who subscribe to, and take the trouble to read, this thread, I can tell you that you have six rivals.

klarius - nice play! :goodjob:

One day you will have to explain the logic of sending out scouting units in an AW game :lol:, since the AI's are now in war mode :eek:

Murky, you're up next. Please plan for 15 turns. I don't want this game to be over before it's my turn set :cry:

Also, please provide a pre-play-plan when you feel comfortable. There are a lot of choices we have to make, such as:

Shall we build another city or not
Shall we build any more warriors
Shall we send warriors or axes to search for the enemy
What MM shall we do to achieve whatever we want

Don't feel rushed to play. This is probably one of the most important turn sets in the game. No pressure :lol:

I don't know about 15 turns. Here's what is planned for the first 4. Warrior on western gold hill will fight lion then heal (assuming it survives) other warrior will heal 1 turn then head east. Worker will chop for 4 turns then go to farm the banna tile. City will work the highest growth tiles for those 4 turns.

Since there won't be any big decisions yet, I can play these 4 turns then we can discuss.

Since there won't be any big decisions yet, I can play these 4 turns then we can discuss.Murky, if you haven't played those 4 turns, please wait, because I think we want to consider going straight into an axe rush, starting with your turn zero. See below...

Preliminary calcs for fastest 3 axes:
1. 2 chops working copper full time: ~20 turns
2. 2 chops working copper and 1 poprush: 12 turns
3. 1 chop working copper and 1 poprush: 14 turns
EDIT: 4. chop South (to completion)>farm bananas>chop North>pasture cows, build 4 axes, research agri>AH (as below)

#3 is optimum because the worker chops in place then farms bananas 5 turns later. Bananas come on line about when poprush happens. This also doesn't waste time working undeveloped bananas. Only works developed (=useful) copper. This leverages our early copper bigtime. BIGTIME.

EDIT: Okay, I tested this. It rocks. We dominate the continent. AW = All Wimps. I set the map up as you can see in the saves. I even put in a surprise for you. Alas, I used BRennus instead of Hannibal, but I do have Alex and Mansa. All have horses in their FC. Easily before 2000 bc we have discovered them all, only one had horses hooked up, but no chariots. Copper not hooked up either. Mansa has skirmishers of course. None had a second city yet.

T0: Switch citizen to copper, continue building axeman1.
T1: chop forest
T4: research AH
T5: chop goes to axe1
T6: farm bananas; axe1 goes SE (could go E or NE).
Twhatever: Axe2 done, goes on pilgrimage. axes 3 could be poprushed in 2 turns but I decided not to.
T14: NW to forest
T15 chop
Twhatever: Axe3 done, goes on pilgrimage.
T20: chop done, AH done a turn or so earlier, pasture cows
Twhatever axe4 done, protects homeland; pop3 build settler (or whatever)

Updated test map at 4000bc--use for experiencing AW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-4000updated_test_map.CivWarlordsSave)
klarius 3100bc position (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-3100_klarius_position.CivWarlordsSave)
We control the continent- 2020 bc (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-2020_we_dominate_the_our_continent.CivWarlordsSave )

I am not sure i follow you.

Why do we want hunting at all?


And - another thing - at a certain moment we will need some spears to defend against chariots ... ;)

Well played guys - let's get 3 axes and make a "search-and-pillage" mission with them !! :)

klarius did a superlative job of scouting. Look at his map and you can see how Gyathaar added mountains and forested hills to provide us critical defense points to block the AI advance. By inference, this also gives us a good idea of where the AIs are. Very, very, very well done, klarius. :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/AW_defense_planned.JPG

If the AIs are really far away, then we may be able to win by domination without Astro. IF they are closer, they're dead meat with the axe rush. Let's not forget that other AIs may be blocked from finding us until they get open borders. Another possibility is that Gyathaar put 3 AIs on this continent and 3 on the other, so that they would be willing to trade with each other.

Judging from power graphs, I don't see anyone doing an axe rush...and very few researched BW, if I understand it right. klarius would researching BW first add more to our power graphs at 3100 bc than Agri and partial on AH?

Preliminary calcs for fastest 3 axes:
1. 2 chops working copper full time: ~20 turns
2. 2 chops working copper and 1 poprush: 12 turns
3. 1 chop working copper and 1 poprush: 14 turns
EDIT: 4. chop South (to completion)>farm bananas>chop North>pasture cows, build 4 axes, research agri>AH (as below)

#3 is optimum because the worker chops in place then farms bananas 5 turns later. Bananas come on line about when poprush happens. This also doesn't waste time working undeveloped bananas. Only works developed (=useful) copper. This leverages our early copper bigtime. BIGTIME.

EDIT: Okay, I tested this. It rocks. We dominate the continent. AW = All Wimps. I set the map up as you can see in the saves. I even put in a surprise for you. Alas, I used BRennus instead of Hannibal, but I do have Alex and Mansa. All have horses in their FC. Easily before 2000 bc we have discovered them all, only one had horses hooked up, but no chariots. Copper not hooked up either. Mansa has skirmishers of course. None had a second city yet.

T0: Switch citizen to copper, continue building axeman1.
T1: chop forest
T4: research AH
T5: chop goes to axe1
T6: farm bananas; axe1 goes SE (could go E or NE).
Twhatever: Axe2 done, goes on pilgrimage. axes 3 could be poprushed in 2 turns but I decided not to.
T14: NW to forest
T15 chop
Twhatever: Axe3 done, goes on pilgrimage.
T20: chop done, AH done a turn or so earlier, pasture cows
Twhatever axe4 done, protects homeland; pop3 build settler (or whatever)

Updated test map at 4000bc--use for experiencing AW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-4000updated_test_map.CivWarlordsSave)
klarius 3100bc position (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-3100_klarius_position.CivWarlordsSave)
We control the continent- 2020 bc (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-2020_we_dominate_the_our_continent.CivWarlordsSave )

Good analysis, LC! An axe rush seems like a very good idea. Remember that we are charismatic so a barracks and a single barb encounter along the way to the enemy would give us 4 XP for CR2 axes. The enemy garrisons will also consist of a mix of warriors and archers. The earlier we find them, the larger the proportion of warriors.

I would suggest sending the first axe along the river to the SE. If we manage to capture a city on the river it will be connected immediately.

Judging from power graphs, I don't see anyone doing an axe rush...and very few researched BW, if I understand it right. klarius would researching BW first add more to our power graphs at 3100 bc than Agri and partial on AH?

Yes, BW does add power. AH does too, but only when completed.

An axe rush might be a good idea. But that doesn't mean three axes, but at least ten. So we shouldn't go out of the way to build 3. And we should definitely not pop-rush for axes. As long as we have no granary and hills available population working hills give a better return. So if we want ten axes before a settler rather mine the grass hill now, grow to 2 to coincide with the mining available. Then just work both hills.
I still think warriors to find the AI would be fine.
And I still think we should plop down a coastal city soon to get a dingi in the water. We cannot know if we capture a coastal city soon,
I don't think our continent is that big. AFAIR I saw both scouts of everybody. So there shouldn't be that much land to explore.

Preliminary calcs for fastest 3 axes:
1. 2 chops working copper full time: ~20 turns
2. 2 chops working copper and 1 poprush: 12 turns
3. 1 chop working copper and 1 poprush: 14 turns
EDIT: 4. chop South (to completion)>farm bananas>chop North>pasture cows, build 4 axes, research agri>AH (as below)

#3 is optimum because the worker chops in place then farms bananas 5 turns later. Bananas come on line about when poprush happens. This also doesn't waste time working undeveloped bananas. Only works developed (=useful) copper. This leverages our early copper bigtime. BIGTIME.

EDIT: Okay, I tested this. It rocks. We dominate the continent. AW = All Wimps. I set the map up as you can see in the saves. I even put in a surprise for you. Alas, I used BRennus instead of Hannibal, but I do have Alex and Mansa. All have horses in their FC. Easily before 2000 bc we have discovered them all, only one had horses hooked up, but no chariots. Copper not hooked up either. Mansa has skirmishers of course. None had a second city yet.

T0: Switch citizen to copper, continue building axeman1.
T1: chop forest
T4: research AH
T5: chop goes to axe1
T6: farm bananas; axe1 goes SE (could go E or NE).
Twhatever: Axe2 done, goes on pilgrimage. axes 3 could be poprushed in 2 turns but I decided not to.
T14: NW to forest
T15 chop
Twhatever: Axe3 done, goes on pilgrimage.
T20: chop done, AH done a turn or so earlier, pasture cows
Twhatever axe4 done, protects homeland; pop3 build settler (or whatever)

Updated test map at 4000bc--use for experiencing AW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-4000updated_test_map.CivWarlordsSave)
klarius 3100bc position (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-3100_klarius_position.CivWarlordsSave)
We control the continent- 2020 bc (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-2020_we_dominate_the_our_continent.CivWarlordsSave )

Nice work but I have an alternative to chopping out axes.

Worker chops until agriculture this leaves only 1 chop left for forest, work the food tile to help grow to size 2. It takes only 8 turns to irrigate the bananas so the worker is switched to that at turn 4. At this point we want to work food and copper for max hammers but still growing. After the irrigation the worker builds gold mine. The mine won't be finished on my turn set but we will have an axe built. Once the mine is finished that provides us with 3 additional hammers and 8 gold for research. We get AH and the cow gets improved in the next turn set. Grow to size 4 and work those 4 improved tiles. We can then either build a settler or more axes depending on the situation. We're up against at least 2 financial civilizations and we'll need the tech advantage at some point.

An axe rush might be a good idea. But that doesn't mean three axes, but at least ten. So we shouldn't go out of the way to build 3. And we should definitely not pop-rush for axes. As long as we have no granary and hills available population working hills give a better return. So if we want ten axes before a settler rather mine the grass hill now, grow to 2 to coincide with the mining available. Then just work both hills.
I still think warriors to find the AI would be fine.
And I still think we should plop down a coastal city soon to get a dingi in the water. We cannot know if we capture a coastal city soon,
I don't think our continent is that big. AFAIR I saw both scouts of everybody. So there shouldn't be that much land to explore.

Ten axes? :eek: What will ten axes achieve that three wont? Speed is what is most important, not brutal overkill :confused: . We really have to kill one of the AI before they start swarming us...

00. I agree--no poprushing without granary. Our capital is hammer-rich, food-weak.

1. 3 axes = 3 AIs. Axes find the AIs, pillage and sentry to keep any workers dormant. It's now or never if we want to prevent the AI from connecting up horses and/or copper. The smaller our continent, the more easily they'll find them. This is NOT the AXE RUSH yet. THis is Stone Aging the AIs. (Try any comparable map, Worldbuild copper into your FC and watch the party unfold.)

2. Think about it guys: Our goal is fastest conquest. We need hammers and food. Preferably food during REX, yes, but currently we have one useful tile improved--copper. LEVERAGE! So we use it till we have our next tile improved--bananas (quasi, but okay). We are (1) maximizing our output, (2) it just so happens it's a really smart idea to produce those 3 axes because they keep the 3 AIs in the Stone Age, and (3) then we improve cattle, just when AH comes on line, so we continue maxxing our output. LEVERAGE!

3. We still don't know if we need astronomy, so we still want to hook up gold asap and keep our research pedal to the metal.

4. THink about it: 3100bc and after building 1 wkr and researching 1 tech, WE CAN BUILD AXES!!! No night-time Civ fantasy and no orgasm can match that. Let's ride that horse. (but 3 axes now, then klarius' coastal city, then the axe rush) EDIT: Add a 4th axe for defense while growing to pop3 and improving cows.

EDIT: FOr anyone who doesn't see the value of Stone Aging the AIs, WHEN POSSIBLE, I submit you've never played an AW game with and an AI game without stone aging.

3 Axes sent in 3 different directions aren't an Axe rush.
I want my exploring ship soon, so maybe no Axe rush is ok.

Crossposted with LC; I agree on everything he says with a single but significant exception:

no orgasm can match that.

Now, seriously, you should try DOING love sometime. :p

Some key points before I forget:
1. Very important to keep 1 or 2 warriors at home. Our position is so strong now, we don't need to take any foolhardy risks.
2. Building these 4 axes asap (~20 turns), we don't need Hunting now, maybe never need Archery. 4th axe is for home defense while we grow to pop3.
3. We want AH asap anyway so we can see where the AI horses are. (yes I know we can look for the extra hammers)

LC if you feel that strongly about it, I could just get a skip and let you take control. You seem to have a better feel for this type of early game.

Now, seriously, you should try DOING love sometime. :pLast time I did my wife the neighbors complained.

Sending three axes in different directions is a good idea. Sending them to one AI is also a good idea (me thinks). Which is best? The latter option has more risks attached, so perhaps we shall play it safe and inhibit them. Then we don't need the barracks. I've never seen an archer attack an axe, so for pillaging it's enough. There is no real need to kill of the AI archers. It's better if they start cost maintenance for the AI.

It's too early to decide on conquest. If the starting continent is large enough, we can dominate. It looks large, and 4 out of 7 civs starts on it. How fast can we get to astronomy and launch invasions compared to settling the starting continent?

There is beauty in the strategy to build three axes, send them out to each AI, build another one for defense and then a settler.

What about sending a warrior to the west and see where that peninsula ends? It would save us valuable time if we don't have to send the workboat in that direction.

Murky, killing of animals is not that important since they will not enter our borders. It's more important that we keep units for defense alive. I'm a bit nervous leaving London without garrison...

And don't forget to "get it" since I would prefer if we get into that habit asap...

LC if you feel that strongly about it, I could just get a skip and let you take control. You seem to have a better feel for this type of early game.I don't see any point in changing the order. The vital part is the discussion and the preparation. Mostly, I just think we need to play the hand we were dealt. BW is good for REXing if you have forests to chop or population to poprush. We have neither. Instead we have hammers. We can either crank out some units while the rest of our nation catches up, or we could just crank out another worker or a settler, while working the copper mine. Imo.

I don't see any point in changing the order. The vital part is the discussion and the preparation. Mostly, I just think we need to play the hand we were dealt. BW is good for REXing if you have forests to chop or population to poprush. We have neither. Instead we have hammers. We can either crank out some units while the rest of our nation catches up, or we could just crank out another worker or a settler, while working the copper mine. Imo.

It wouldn't be changing the order. Skiping just means that you skip my turn and post a "got it" instead of me.

LC if you feel that strongly about it, I could just get a skip and let you take control. You seem to have a better feel for this type of early game.

Murky, everyone of us feel strongly about this game, not only LC, so you would never get your turn set by that condition! :lol:

I can understand if you think that the rest of us is interfering with your turn set :mischief: . We are all very eager to put forth our ideas and hopefully they will make sense at the end.

This is valid for everybody in the team. We will all have to accept that opinions will be put forth and points will be argued. For example: I always consider my ideas to be better than everyone elses, until Im proven wrong. When that happens, I change my mind. So, don't hesitate to provide ideas, even if you don't get a response to them. If we're going to beat CRC and OSS, we have to rely on open discussions. It's not down to the individual skill of each team member. It's the combined skill that matters. If we're going to perform better as a team than individuals, there is really only one way forward: that someone presents an idea, and the rest of us scrutinizes it and suggests improvements. And the more ideas that are presented, the greater that chance is that we pick the best one. So keep presenting ideas and suggest improvements.

Murky, everyone of us feel strongly about this game, not only LC, so you would never get your turn set by that condition! :lol:

I can understand if you think that the rest of us is interfering with your turn set :mischief: . We are all very eager to put forth our ideas and hopefully they will make sense at the end.

This is valid for everybody in the team. We will all have to accept that opinions will be put forth and points will be argued. For example: I always consider my ideas to be better than everyone elses, until Im proven wrong. When that happens, I change my mind. So, don't hesitate to provide ideas, even if you don't get a response to them. If we're going to beat CRC and OSS, we have to rely on open discussions. It's not down to the individual skill of each team member. It's the combined skill that matters. If we're going to perform better as a team than individuals, there is really only one way forward: that someone presents an idea, and the rest of us scrutinizes it and suggests improvements. And the more ideas that are presented, the greater that chance is that we pick the best one. So keep presenting ideas and suggest improvements.

I didn't mean it that way at all. The consensus seemed to be to go with LC's plan. Since he would be the best player to execute it and he is up next, it just makes more sense for him to play those turns. I understand this is a team effort. Sacrificing playing a turn is something I'm willing to do for the good of the team. :)

I didn't mean it that way at all. The consensus seemed to be to go with LC's plan. Since he would be the best player to execute it and he is up next, it just makes more sense for him to play those turns. I understand this is a team effort. Sacrificing playing a turn is something I'm willing to do for the good of the team. :)Good, thanks for clarifying. Actually, it's the decision that I think is on the balance here. We're at a crossroads and what I feel most strongly about is that we think it through carefully. I'm not wedded to any particular solution. I am wedded to making a strong case for a solution that looks promising.

The turnset itself would probably about as boring as they get, except for exploring with the axe and any exploration we risk (by leaving the capital less defended) with the warrior. If you want we can switch, but I feel uncomfortable with you skpping a turnset, although it's considerate of you to offer. I think we want to stay in the spirit of the team effort as much as possible.

I'm still nervous about this but I suppose this will count as my got it.

I'm planning to try a couple more variants tonight. Maybe someone else too, I don't know. THen maybe we can figure out what makes most sense.

Am I the only one testing this stuff out? :mad:

Anyway, I did a couple variants on klarius' plan and one more using a combo of what I did yesterday, but adding Murky's idea of mining the gold after the bananas, in stead of chopping the second forest right away.

K1: Agri>Htg>AH>Wheel, worked bananas to pop2, then copper too. Chop (to settler)>farm bananas>mine gold> chop N (to settler)>pasture cows. Builds: Warrior>warrior>axe>settler(2170bc). 3 warriors go out, but always had two units by capital. Warriors successfully sentried by AI keeping worker home.

K2: Same as above, but worked copper from T0. Settler finished 2020 plus extra axe to protect new city. ( I guess I could have had settler done faster without the 2nd axe).

M1: Agri>AH>Wheel>Sailing. Worked copper. Built 3 axes>settler (2020 bc). Sent 1 warrior, then 2 axes to AIs.

Notes:
1. Skirmisher ate my warrior when I placed it next to capital, but not when 2 tiles away on forested hill behind river.
2. Warriors are slower to explore because of healing time.
3. klarius' plan seems to be workable, but definitely vulnerable to losing a warrior. Settler seems to be about 2-4 turns sooner, but defenses are a bit weaker (1 axe + warrior instead of 2axes + warrior).
4. Where do we want to put the new city? NW of cows? On bananas? S SW of copper? Wait for horses to decide?
5. Stone Aging AIs Rules.
6. Once I got the warrior to Brennus before his stack of 3 warrios had left his city. My wee little unpromoted warrior kept his scaredy cats in his capital for about 500 years...(they're still there now)

Am I the only one testing this stuff out? :mad:


I can't. So let me get over the "little details" like "which tile to work in which turn?" and talk in a more strategic level.

The options are:

1.- Axe rush. 4 Axes to 1 single AI asap. Reward: 1 additional city. Cost: no control of the other 2 AI.
If we go this path we are leveraging our ultra early Axes and we should go after a protective AI if at all possible. 3Axes can take 1 defender, 4 Axes can take 2 defenders if they are not both protective archers.

2.- Tight control. Build 3 Axes, 1 to each AI. Risk no attacks (in general). That way we can develop much faster than them, since their workers won't do anything. Build settler for the coast.

3.- Loose control. Build 3 Warriors, 1 for each AI. Fortify them in a strong tile. Develop faster than them, maybe have another unit ready to replace a loss. Build settler for the coast (sooner). But it doesn't make use of the ultra-early-Axes.

4.- Control+agresion. Build 3 Axes, 1 to each AI. Build another 3, 1 to each AI. Every pair will attack settlers coming out or even cities when the settlers are coming out. No coastal city.

5.- Control+rush. Build 3 Axes, 1 to each AI. Build another 3. Send all 3 to the same AI, together with the controller they will exterminate them, then go to the next AI. No coastal city.

In any of the plans, I wouldn't keep 2 units in the capital, just 1 will deter them. If someone is knocking at the door, then we will build a second one.

Every plan has its advantages. What do we prefer?

I prefere jesusin_5. We can build axes. Let's do it. Why hurry with the settler? It's better to steal the capitals, yes?

LC, no I have not tested anything. The main reason is that no-one will listen to my advice anyway :mad:, second reason is that I have played this kind of games approximately one million times (and no-one still listens to me :cry:), third reason is that YOU are the MM-specialists, forth reason is that I played FIFA07 yesterday, fifth reason is that I don't want to be SUPERIOR to the rest of the team due to extended testing :lol:

Jesusin_5 gets my vote too.

LC, in your test games, what kind of garrisons did the AIs have at roughly the time when our axes would arrive?


The week before Xmas is a bad one for testing things out in Gnejs-land. Too little time... :(

Not from test, but from theory:
You should expect warrior+archer in the capital and maybe already another archer meant for escort duty. When you enter their land they will build more archers. But these are attack archers which may venture out.

Well guys, I'm having technical problems with my comp now so I'm going to need a skip.

In any of the plans, I wouldn't keep 2 units in the capital, just 1 will deter them. If someone is knocking at the door, then we will build a second one.I find two warriors imperative, and even 1 axe/1 warrior, because otherwise the AI can pillage. Two scenarios I witnessed:
1. Early AI warrior. If we hav only one