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The Game

Gyathaar is playing this one close to his chest. Here's all the intelligence I've been able to wring out of him:


Prince difficulty
Epic speed
You play as the Charismatic, Protective Churchill of the English Empire.
You start with Fishing and Mining.
Your unique unit is the Redcoat, replacing the Rifleman.
Your Unique building is the Stock Exchange, replacing the Bank.
The map is a highly modified Cylindrical Big And Small map, using the BtS map script. It is Standard, Temperate, Medium sea level.
Always war. All VCs are enabled. I think the barbs are at default setting.

Here's the start - click the picture for one a bit bigger.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM06small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM06.jpg)

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.13, on Windows only, with the DLLs as installed with BtS.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.13.002 for Windows. You will need to ensure that you can run the Asset Checker v2 before you attempt to load this game. Typlically, players who have upgraded to Beyond the Sword will have the right assets. Alternatively, you should be able to make your installation compliant by installing the new .DLLs released for WOTM 15 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251044). If you have a Steam installation then you will need to look at this post by ArcadicGamer for inspiration.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game, and you will need to maintain a copy of your installed software at these versions to complete the game.

Timetable
The game will start on December 14th. I recommend you plan for a 4 month deadline for completion.

You will be able to download your start save from the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) on December 14th, at midnight local server time.

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.13 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards may be reduced, depending on the number of teams who sign up.

Awards will be given to teams who win in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Enjoy your mystery tour of the World of Warlords.

Checking in.


Settling in place looks best. In the long run Conquest/Domination will probably be the quickest way to win this game.

Checking in,

I think 1SE is a better starting location. Its a plains hill and we can work the bananas for a bonus coin on turn 2. Research agriculture, build a worker, farm the bananas, and mine the gold. We are going to research IW pretty early so the jungle tiles won't have to wait too long. I'll try to look at timing more seriously later.

Checking in--welcome back Robert the Bruce.
I agree that this will be a conquest/dom game.
I'm not at all sure about the settling. I think at prince we don't need the capital to be on a hill for defense, esp with protective archers.
I like moving the warrior sw with an eye to settling on the dye for a bonus commerce.
If we're on the big continent, it may be possible to get dom w/o astro.
If we're on small, obviously not but then the AW doesn't hurt us much.
I think scouting much more a premium than a normal AW.

Checking in,

I think 1SE is a better starting location. Its a plains hill and we can work the bananas for a bonus coin on turn 2.
It looks like grass hill to me.
I'm also not sure about the build. I haven't played AW in a while but I think the AI will break culture if capital is not defended. Not sure about pillaging undefended improvements but we need to check on that. We may have to build a warrior first.

1 SE is definatly a grassland hill. We will be able to work the bananas if we settle in place on turn 15, so we would only gain +7 commerce if we settled on the hill. We would also lose 1 turn of production/growth, and if this caused us to delay working the gold mine for even one turn we would be worse of than settling in place. We should not need the defensive bonus for the capital.

The AI will break culture early in the game if it sees the capital undefended, but if our initial warrior only explores the area next to the capital we can use that for defence while we build a worker. I agree with researching agriculture first, then perhaps animal husbandry for horses/cows.

It maybe worth considering doing something with the Oracle if possible.

It maybe worth considering doing something with the Oracle if possible.
I think we should plan on it.
Since we are playing prince and have gold, we can get something pretty useful. I would think either feudalism or CS should be possible.

Checking in.

I don't know about prince level and Oracle, is it even necessary to get Maces on this kind of level?

TDK

Depending on the map it may well be possible to win without maces (though they may speed things up). I was thinking of getting code of laws/construction/metal casting from the Oracle instead of CS.

Depending on the map it may well be possible to win without maces (though they may speed things up). I was thinking of getting code of laws/construction/metal casting from the Oracle instead of CS.
Depending on the map we may need astro.
In a pangea map, the AI techs pretty well since they all trade with each other and we don't trade. I've only played AW a couple of times but it seemed like it was important to seize the initiative fast.
It might make sense to try and sling feud with the oracle--I think vassalage as a civic and the LB both very useful, esp with protective.
We'll have to see how the map plays out--big and small. I think there's a decent chance that we're put on the big, with not enough land for dom. So that would mean astro after major warring--a pretty interesting game IMHO.
If we're on the small, then the AW piece will have really pretty limited effect.

I'm thinking we should move the warrior SW--should we do that first and then discuss settling?

I`m fine with moving the warrior SW.

I created a test game that approximates our start (not precisely) and played a few turns and also tested another start.
The AI did not break culture to pillage improvements until around 2000 or so. If capital is vacated the AI will go for it so starting warrior can't go far. That supports the worker first build.

Valuable info there, Ungy.

Let's move the worker and discuss further.

TDK

OK-I moved the warrior:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff77/ungy_2007/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

In a normal game I would definately settle 1E. Just generally hate to settle 2 in from the coast. In this case seafood is much less desirable as we'll have to defend it. Anyone remember how the warlords AI works? In BTS that is a problem but I have a vague recollection that the warlords AI would not attack a defended resource unless it was a favorite to win the first battle.
Looking at the blue circles(which I don't necessarily have much faith in) would indicate something to the NW and nothing to the E. That would reinforce my feeling to claim the E gold with the capital. The banana tile to the W I don't think is significant in terms of wanting to settle in place.
I don't think we need to be on a hill at prince and I'd rather not lose a river hill.
I'd vote for 1E, get the warrior back in around 6 turns just in case the AI are close (which I don't think they are but why gamble).
Research ag-ah. Build worker first. Then I think we either go BW or archery. I think we should get a strong scout early on to get a good picture of the continent. That will shape many of our decisions.
We have a very strong production capital, I would think seriously about SH as that is great with charismatic.

If I have some time I'll run some simulations with the practice game on capital builds and techs. Since the capital will be almost all the prod+commerce early that'll help I think with tile work order/build order--I encourage anyone who has time to do the same.

In a normal game I would definately settle 1E. Just generally hate to settle 2 in from the coast. In this case seafood is much less desirable as we'll have to defend it. Anyone remember how the warlords AI works? In BTS that is a problem but I have a vague recollection that the warlords AI would not attack a defended resource unless it was a favorite to win the first battle.
Looking at the blue circles(which I don't necessarily have much faith in) would indicate something to the NW and nothing to the E. That would reinforce my feeling to claim the E gold with the capital. The banana tile to the W I don't think is significant in terms of wanting to settle in place.


The blue circles do not take account of what is hidden in the fog of war. What disadvantage would there be in settling 2 from the coast? I can`t see any advantage in moving 1E which would lose us a turn and possibly a strategic resource. The AI in warlords will attack triemes defending fishing boats.

I agree with worker first and keeping the warrior close to the capital (unless it appears we are fairly isolated.) I also agree with agriculture-animal husbandry, but I think we will be better off building units instead of Stonehenge.

The goldmine is a bit better 1SE and the river banana can be worked from the start, but is it worth it to delay settling for a turn? Delaying a turn will cost us 9 gold(+food & production), but we would gain some from the better banana and more later from the better gold. 1SE would also grant better defense but cost us a forest.

I call it a tie and can support both solutions.

TDK

What disadvantage would there be in settling 2 from the coast?
Well if you are 2 in from the coast it kills the possibility of settling another city to claim a seafood.
If the AI will attack a trireme defending seafood then we're probably better off skipping it and not building a navy so that would argue for settling in place.

The blue circles do not take account of what is hidden in the fog of war.
Are you sure about this?
How could there be a blue circle if so SW of the warrior?

but I think we will be better off building units instead of Stonehenge.
Very possibly, but I think we should keep our options open.
If we have a close neighbor, at prince we might be able to rush them when they are a mix of archers and warriors. If that is not going to be the case, then SH represents pretty good value for a charismatic civ.

What do you guys think of archery?
I'm inclined to go for it sooner rather than later.
I think it makes sense to go for it after AH and build a few, letting the capital grow.

Even if there is seafood there it looks like we can still get it by founding another city elsewhere.

There is a blue circle SW of the warrior because the AI thinks that is the best location in the area given the tiles it can see. If you look at the screenshots you will see that their location changed when the warrior was moved.

I don`t think we will need archery unless we don`t have either horses or copper in an easily accesible location. On prince we will have enough time to research BW,AH and archery and build several units before barbs/AI are able to attack us.

We also have the option of settling on the dye, giving us an extra commerce on the city tile, the river gold, both bananas and we settle turn 0. I would definitely do that.

TDK

We also have the option of settling on the dye, giving us an extra commerce on the city tile, the river gold, both bananas and we settle turn 0. I would definitely do that.

I don't like that as much given what the warrior has revealed. There's more chance we'll settle near the eastern gold later while settling the dye may end up making the western gold pretty unusable. Although getting the river gold and the commerce bonus from turn 1 has a lot of advantages--not sure how useful the second banana is since it can't be farmed--alternatively we can farm the dyes for a 3f/2c tile.

I don`t think we will need archery unless we don`t have either horses or copper in an easily accesible location. On prince we will have enough time to research BW,AH and archery and build several units before barbs/AI are able to attack us.
maybe we should go BW after AH and then evaluate.
I'm thinking we should work the gold after the two good food tiles are up. Our research should rocket then.

1S would increse our research rate and we could still fit a city in to work the other gold. The only disadvantage I can see is that it would reduce our chances of getting a stategic resource in the fat cross. I would still settle in place.

Hello, checking in...

My vote is for 1E. By working the cow and farming the banana, there is ample food to work the mines/specialist. This should make a solid size 7 city.

Doh, checking in last :(.

Is there definitely a square of land SW of the western gold, that could take a tiny banana and gold city, with any seafood as a bonus?

A little off topic, but it is interesting to note...

The Culture graph on the results & standings web page seems to indicate that there is diversity in when teams settle their first city.

Is there definitely a square of land SW of the western gold, that could take a tiny banana and gold city, with any seafood as a bonus?

I think so, but if not we could still get the gold by settling in the north.


The Culture graph on the results & standings web page seems to indicate that there is diversity in when teams settle their first city.

It looks to me as if almost all the teams settled in place.

I'm starting to lean to 1S on the dye. That'll pick up 1C from the start, and put the river gold in the BFC. My main interest in 1E was to avoid killing a western coastal site, but if we have land tile 3E that helps. Also if the AI will attack a trireme then I think the value of seafood is much less.

I'm fine with either 1s or 1e. Both locations have a good selection of resources, hills, and riverside grassland for a size 7 or 8 city. Both sites are flexible if we are on the small continent and need astronomy or the large continent and just need production. With a charismatic leader, we probably won't build the plantation until near the middle or end of the game so I would lean slightly toward settling on the dye. We can save a forest and get the same bonus commerce we would have by farming or cottaging the dye tile.

Ungy do you want to take the first turnset and settle 1S?

It looks to me as if almost all the teams settled in place.

I would disagree, of 12 teams, at least 6 have generated less culture by settling a turn late, and we cannot tell who settled in place or who moved 1S and still settled on the first turn?

I am happy with 1S.

Ungy do you want to take the first turnset and settle 1S?
sounds good. I'll play until AH is in building worker first--research ag-AH.

OK we settle on the dye, scout a bit to the S and head back to garrison London. Build a worker, and research ag-AH.
We meet some neighbors:
3640 Mansa to the E
3610 Alex to the SE
3580 Hannibal to the SE.
All come with scouts.
3190 AH in and we don't have horse in sight.

save is here:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff77/ungy_2007/Civ4ScreenShot0004-1.jpg

My guess is we should go for BW and try and scout with warriors. If we don't turn up a nearby bronze go the archery route.

Note: I have two turns in on the banana farm.

save is here:
My guess is we should go for BW and try and scout with warriors. If we don't turn up a nearby bronze go the archery route.


Is an early archer rush a possibility on Prince??

If so, I would prefer to go archery first instead of gambling on bronze. Having three early neighbors with always war makes me nervous. ;)

That looks like a good start ungy! I think its worth BW before hunting and archery. Our research rate will jump after the gold is worked (about 18 turns from now when we grow to size 3 and finish the pasture/farm/mine) so delaying archery won't cost that many turns if there is no copper but we may be able to skip hunting if there is bronze nearby.

I would suggest Bronze Working (followed by Wheel if we see copper) and a sweep of the nearby area with a warrior for the next turn set. Only Mansa met us within the first 10 turns so an archer rush probably isn't feasible and I would like to see the border of another civ before we commit to archery. Archers aren't great for denying resource tiles so I would even prefer pushing to IW rather than archery if we have no nearby copper.

It looks like we are on the big continent so we will have to find out if there is enough land to squeeze out a domination win.

I agree with going for bronze working next while we scout the local area. Even with always war on the AI dosn`t try and attack you until it has run out of room to expand, so we can afford to delay archery. I would only try an archer rush as a last resort.

Looks to me like we got the best possible start, settling on the right spot.

Agree with Robert and Mdy. I would like a screenshot after BW comes in, if that is what we agree on.

Is a Barracks +3 or +4 xp in Warlords? If it's 4 I think we should build a Barracks after the warrior completes, that will give us 2 upgrades with Charismatic, right?(Sorry, I don't have the game)

TDK

I agree with the BW and scout area plan--then pause for comments.
If bronze, I think wheel and hook it up is clear.
If no bronze, I'd vote for archery. We can scout aggressively with the (protective) archers and find the AI resources. We also have barbs to deal with--I guess not for a while at prince tho. We are teching very well, and I don't think the detour is too much.

Only Mansa met us within the first 10 turns so an archer rush probably isn't feasible and I would like to see the border of another civ before we commit to archery.
They may be closer than we think.
Am I correct in that the AI at prince does not get a free scout? If so then either Mansa popped a scout or built one (and Hannibal too).

On prince the AI starts with only 2 warriors, so either Mansa popped one, or he was given an extra one by the map creator.

The barracks only gives +3XP in warlords, but once we have built 2-3 warriors for scouting we may as well build it while we wait for better units to become available. If we can get either copper or horses quickly I agree with researching the wheel after BW. If not we should probably pause to discuss what we do next. A construction slingshot via the Oracle may be a viable alternative.

Ungy, can you upload the save to the progress and results page? I don`t think the administrators want the saves being passed on in the team thread.

Ok, I can take it later today if there are no further objections.

TDK

Ok, I can take it later today if there are no further objections.
Go ahead TDK.

On prince the AI starts with only 2 warriors, so either Mansa popped one, or he was given an extra one by the map creator.

I think there's an excellent chance that one of the warriors was replaced with a scout, so that nobody has an early accident.

If we can get either copper or horses quickly I agree with researching the wheel after BW. If not we should probably pause to discuss what we do next.
sounds like a good plan

Ungy, can you upload the save to the progress and results page? I don`t think the administrators want the saves being passed on in the team thread.
done

We have Copper on the hill south of London! London will be size 4 in 4 turns, we will have a Barracks in 5 turns and the Copper mine will come online the same turn, making a very powerful axe production city. I would let the worker start a road south from the copper mine, crossing as few rivers as possible, and feed any surplus population to the whip. We know that Alex is on the coast to the south as he sent a workboat to scout. Let's take Athens and build a scout boat ourselves.

Mansa has a weak capital and I've attempted to slow him by bullying his worker and banana crop.

Turn 36, 2920 BC: Forest grows at London.

Turn 37, 2890 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 40, 2800 BC: Alexander adopts Slavery!
Turn 40, 2800 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 41, 2770 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Slavery!
Turn 41, 2770 BC: Hannibal adopts Slavery!

Turn 42, 2740 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 43, 2710 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Churchill adopts Slavery!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 49, 2530 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

TDK

I wonder what Murky are doing in their game. Seems like they settled a turn late but their power graph looks funny. Are they attempting an archer rush? Did they settle somewhere foolish?

TDK

Great news on finding copper. I cannot see the save. If we settled in place, would it have been in the cross?



Turn 40, 2800 BC: Alexander adopts Slavery!
Turn 41, 2770 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Slavery!
Turn 41, 2770 BC: Hannibal adopts Slavery!

Turn 42, 2740 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!



Great minds think alike.:lol:

Whoever gets their copper on-line first will have an advantage. We should continue to bully/scare their workers away from copper while we gear up for a campaign.

What about Stonehenge? Building it would take 16 turns. The obelisks would be nice and we would eventually pop a prophet for Feudalism(Caste System), the last tech we need for a dom win, IMO.

Maybe we should do that after we build 2 axes for Athens.

TDK

We know that Alex is on the coast to the south as he sent a workboat to scout. Let's take Athens and build a scout boat ourselves.


Maybe we should go after Mansa Musa first. He has a higher score and if he gets skirmishers before we take him out he will be much more difficult to deal with than the others. A scout boat can wait till we have built up our military enough.

What about Stonehenge? Building it would take 16 turns. The obelisks would be nice and we would eventually pop a prophet for Feudalism(Caste System), the last tech we need for a dom win, IMO.

Caste System reuires code of laws not feudalism, and needs 2 prophets to pop. Maybe it would be better to get COL from the Oracle instead. If we need astronomy for a domination win stonehenge will be obsolete and if not the culture from the obelisks would save at most 1 turn. I think we would be better off putting the early hammers into axes instead.

If we did this I would research mysticism-polytheism-priesthood next.

I have a stong opinion that we should try for Mansa.
His capital is on a hill and will be difficult once he gets SK.
We can see his progress.
London MM is smooth--barracks ready when bronze hooked up.
I think 2 axes is the right amount--if he gets even a single SK we have to leave it on the early rush. If no SK, we take his warriors down even if he gets more.
I think we should start chopping.
If I have some time tomorrow I'll run a few starts and see when the AI get archers in the capital--that might be useful.
Nice set TDK!
I would be surprised if this game doesn't require astro.
I think we should break fairly often.

How can we know how to proceed if we don't know our victory condition? If we need Astro, capturing Mansa is just counterproductive to our plans. We won't achieve anything on the way to knowing more of the map, and his city will likely be a drag for a long time. I also think it's likely he will get Skirmishers before our axes arrive anyway.
Ungy, you say you would be surprised if we shan't need Astronomy, how would Mansa help us get Astronomy fast or even determine if we need it or not? Shouldn't we instead found a second gold city and grab Machinery with Oracle and pop some scientists for Optics? The problem is we don't know, and as long as we don't, we can't decide on a strategy.

I think the most pressing matter know is to get an idea of how we are to win, and a scout boat would be useful for that. Alex' capital would also get trade routes with our capital. There is also a good chance that Athens is on the way to Hannibal.

We might attempt a two pronged strategy of building axes with London and at the same time chopping for a settler in queue, basically allowing our city to grow while building a settler(in the end we whip it). We then found gold city on the ocean and we achieve expanding our economy for the contingency of needing Astro, and we pop a scout boat to know more of our world.

TDK

In any case we agree on what is to happen in the next 5 turns; growing city, finishing barracks, completing copper mine, scout south with warrior and try and locate Alex on the coast.
If we can agree on what to research, I can play 5 more turns and we can see if Alex looks juicy or not.
I would research Pottery because we can use the cottages and Granary, it's on its way to Writing(Library=Great Scientist), Machinery(Possible Oracle sling) and CoL. I'm also okay with Mysticism. We really need both, but not right now...

TDK

How can we know how to proceed if we don't know our victory condition? If we need Astro, capturing Mansa is just counterproductive to our plans. We won't achieve anything on the way to knowing more of the map, and his city will likely be a drag for a long time. I also think it's likely he will get Skirmishers before our axes arrive anyway.
Ungy, you say you would be surprised if we shan't need Astronomy, how would Mansa help us get Astronomy fast or even determine if we need it or not? Shouldn't we instead found a second gold city and grab Machinery with Oracle and pop some scientists for Optics? The problem is we don't know, and as long as we don't, we can't decide on a strategy.



We are going to have to take out MM whether we need astronomy or not as we are on always war. The sooner we do this the easier it will be, just 1 axe could probably take Timbuktu at the moment, it would be far more difficult to do it later. This city will make a profit very quickly, and more importantly would boost our production. If we don`t take him out soon we will have to waste more resources just to fend off his attacks. Even on prince 4 AI`s can cause us a lot of trouble on AW.

On AW I think trying to slingshot machinery is counter productive at best and fatal at worst. Doing it would require focusing on commerce, but production is needed to deal with our enemies. To bulb optics/astronomy we need 3 GS and we will not even have 1 by the time we could grab machinery from the Oracle, getting machinery very quickly, would not therefore speed us on our way to to astronomy.

I would focus on building only axes for now and try to take out every AI on our home continent before they cause us serious trouble. We can probably slip in a workboat once we have enough axes. I would capture our next citys from the AI and try to grab COL from the Oracle which would be useful whether we need astro or not. If we need astro we can get 3GS while we research metalcasting/machinery.

If we don't have enough land on this continent for Domination, 3 prince AIs are not the bottleneck, research is. Taking Timbutku(a weak city, IMO) would not boost our research significantly(quite the opposite).
We learned in the last game that the projection of power to the farthest foe determines the end date. That's why Mali can wait until after we attack whoever is on the other continent, assuming we need to attack the other continent.

This whole discussion revolves around whether we believe we need Astronomy or not. If we need Astronomy, surely Mali is not the best target right now.
The best way to boost research is to grab the most expensive tech possible on the path to Astronomy with the Oracle and start popping scientists. Building the second gold city would also help a lot.
On the other hand, if we don't need to attack the other continent, Mali is an acceptable target.

We need everyone in on this discussion, this could very well be the cardinal decision for us.

My vote is for going aggressively for Astronomy, I simply don't believe Gyathaar created a map with a superflourous continent.

TDK

My vote is for going aggressively for Astronomy, I simply don't believe Gyathaar created a map with a superflourous continent.

I agree with this and basically agree with the rest of your post.
We should also work on our lighbulbing path--I would envision concentrating on GP.

I ran 3 test games with 6 AI pangea.
At 2500: 8/18 had archery
at 1800 (reasonable arrival estimate): 17/18 have archery. This makes me think it's too much of a longshot.

If we're not going to rush anyone I think SH is good value. Nothing wrong with settling a prophet if we're going as long as astro.

I simply don't believe Gyathaar created a map with a superflourous continent.



I agree. I think Gyathaar wants the teams to struggle to Astro while in always war.

Isn't the best way to achieve Astro based in early conquest? Once the continent is ours, we focus on research & light bulbs.

Additionally, an early conquest strategy will 1) allow us more freedom to scout 2) optimize our war vs research tactics 3) provide a hedge in case our "guess" about Astro is wrong.

Isn't the best way to achieve Astro based in early conquest? Once the continent is ours, we focus on research & light bulbs.

Additionally, an early conquest strategy will 1) allow us more freedom to scout 2) optimize our war vs research tactics 3) provide a hedge in case our "guess" about Astro is wrong



We learned in the last game that the projection of power to the farthest foe determines the end date. That's why Mali can wait until after we attack whoever is on the other continent, assuming we need to attack the other continent.



I agree with llib_rm. The time which determines the finish date is not the time taken to project power to the farthest foe, but the time taken to finish off ALL the civs. If we go after the civs on the other continent:

1)we are going to waste a lot of resources defending our territory
2) slow down our research rate due to lack of territory.
3) It will probably take longer to get the GS for astronomy.
4) slow down our conquest of the other continent due to having a much smaller production capacity.
5) When we go after the civs on our continent it will take longer as the AI`s will be stronger.


I ran 3 test games with 6 AI pangea.
At 2500: 8/18 had archery
at 1800 (reasonable arrival estimate): 17/18 have archery. This makes me think it's too much of a longshot.

Timbuktu is not a very good capital but it would give a small boost to our research and we could use it to get a GS. MM will probably have enough time to research archery, but not to build a skirmisher if we keep the warrior in the fat cross. Even if he can build one we could still be captured with 1-2 more axes.

If we're not going to rush anyone I think SH is good value. Nothing wrong with settling a prophet if we're going as long as astro.


I think stonehenge would be a very poor use of hammers. I am 99% convinced we will need astronomy, so it will be obsolete before the end of the game. We definatly don`t want a prophet as it would delay the scientists for astronomy.

If we build the Oracle in the capital we will need 3 other good cities to pop 3 GS as quickly as possible. A northern gold city would be a bad one for this as it can only work the gold and run 1 scientist. The best way to get the needed cities is to capture them as quickly as possible from the AI.

I'm also of the opinion that it is better to eliminate the AI on our continent more or less ASAP, keeping an eye on tech.
We don't necessarily have to conquer the other continent--just get dom. My guess is that we can get most of that on our continent since there are 4 AI here.
Our capital is unusually strong with the copper. This allows us options I've never had in an AW game (granted I've only played a few).
I would propose building a couple of axes and head towards Mali. If Mansa gets a SK, then an alternate plan is to send a single axe to each AI. This early we might very well totally bottle them up, then build a SOD to take them out one at a time.

scout south with warrior and try and locate Alex on the coast.

This seems a little risky. If there is a wandering warrior (I admit not too likely), the AI will break culture since our capital is undefended. We know he's on the coast, and he also starts with hunting so I can't imagine we could possibly get him pre-archery.
I like pottery.

We all agree on Astro course then. We need to figure out how to get there fast, nothing else matters IMO. Are we going for Machinery?

Llib, I agree early conquest is fastest route to Astro, I just think Mali is a poor target. Their capital is not really suited for GP or anything else.

Mdy, I agree that all theaters need to close at the same time, the idea is to start with the farthest target as the closer ones - such as Mali - are easily reached from our center of production.

I will play to Pottery later, scouting south and building first axe, we can then decide who is our first target.

TDK

Llib, I agree early conquest is fastest route to Astro, I just think Mali is a poor target. Their capital is not really suited for GP or anything else.

I think only reason to go for Mali first is the possibility of an easy conquest to remove a rival.

Mdy, I agree that all theaters need to close at the same time, the idea is to start with the farthest target as the closer ones - such as Mali - are easily reached from our center of production.

I would assume that the fastest victory here will be dom.
That will be done by taking a piece of the other continent and owning ours.
Since the game will be longer, the addition to our production and economy from the captured lands will be substantial--not simply whipping and chopping units to support the advance. So there is a great incentive to get them early.

If we build the Oracle in the capital we will need 3 other good cities to pop 3 GS as quickly as possible. A northern gold city would be a bad one for this as it can only work the gold and run 1 scientist. The best way to get the needed cities is to capture them as quickly as possible from the AI.
3 GS are 150, 300, and 450. It might actually be easier to get them from 2 cities--especially if we can capture a good AI capital. We can run caste for a while later.

Am I understanding correctly that 3 GP are needed--one for optics and 2 for astro? And that we must first self research alpha and math to open up the compasss route? CS cannot be researched to do this. If we had a fourth we could take compass as well but I think not worth it.

I would assume that the fastest victory here will be dom.
That will be done by taking a piece of the other continent and owning ours.
Since the game will be longer, the addition to our production and economy from the captured lands will be substantial--not simply whipping and chopping units to support the advance. So there is a great incentive to get them early.

I agree with this. I would try to capture 3 cities we can use to pop GS as quickly as possible. We could do it with 2 cities but it would be quicker with 3, so if we are going for astro ASAP we should try to get 3. Malis capital isn`t very good, but it will be useful for this. I agree with researching pottery next. If we go after someone else first, I would still send an axe to Timbuktu to cripple Malis development.




3 GS are 150, 300, and 450. It might actually be easier to get them from 2 cities--especially if we can capture a good AI capital. We can run caste for a while later.


Am I understanding correctly that 3 GP are needed--one for optics and 2 for astro? And that we must first self research alpha and math to open up the compasss route? CS cannot be researched to do this. If we had a fourth we could take compass as well but I think not worth it.

We don`t need alphabet, but we do need maths, calendar, sailing, and iron working. The 3 GP`s are for optics and astro. A fourth could get compass, but I am not sure if this is worth it. Caste system will need Code of Laws but if we are going for a machinery slingshot we won`t be able to get this quickly.

I will be away and unable to play until the 2nd of January, but I might (or might not) have time to have a look at this thread occasionally.

I'm fine with a bit of scouting while we find Alex.

Timbuktu isn't that bad a site. The rice is irrigable and the two bananas are the equivalent of floodplains. Its not the greatest but can work the rice, riverside banana and dye cottages and two scientists at size 6. Its a bit far from the capital but otherwise a fine commerce city with three hills for production after generating a great scientist.

There aren't really any sites for a third city between Timbuktu and London until IW and a lot of spare worker turns are available so I would favor looking for Alex and expanding south then east. Choking Mansa and Hannibal's growth with the first couple of axes if possible and then taking Alex sounds very reasonable. We will need a second city with forests to chop or production for the Oracle if we plan on axe production during a Machinery slingshot so we might as well roll the dice on the terrain to the south.

Edit: I will be offline until after Boxing Day. Happy Holidays everyone! :)

not to be a wimp here but am I the only one who's uncomfortable leaving the capital open to scout Alex?
If so, then by all means do it--if not then let's pull a warrior back. Yes I know we can do an emergency build, but at cost. I think once the AI breaks culture they'll pillage.
Not sure how much we gain from an early scout of Alex-- I think it's pretty clear that our next move is to take an AI capital. We can easily axe-rush any of them and that'll yield a good GP city and a worker. We need several axes to do it--I'd rather pull the warrior back and use the first axe to scout/harass Alex.

Anyone have an idea of timeframe on oracle build on prince?

Timbuktu isn't that bad a site.
Agreed it's not terrible but IMHO pretty weak for a capital.
I think the issue with Mali is due to the UU and the hill either it's an easy early rush or should be the last one due to difficulty in overcoming the UU/hill.

One possibility is to send the first axe down to scout Alex, and if Mali does not have a SK send it and the second over to Mali to take the shot at the quick takedown. If we see an SK, then swing back to Alex. 2 axes is not enough to take Athens so not a whole lot is lost by the diversion.

I played until I stumbled on Athens. Sweet city; gold, fish, clam and lots of forest. There is also Stone underneath the city. We know he discovered Masonry because he has walls, which probably means he is building either the Pyramids or the Stonehenge for us!
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3724/sgotm6athenstc1.jpg

4 axes should be enough to take it, especially if we can pick up a single xp for some of the axes on the way there. We should be able to build 3 more axes in 8 turns.

TDK

We know he discovered Masonry because he has walls, which probably means he is building either the Pyramids or the Stonehenge for us!
Nice going TDK--your aggressive scouting has served us well.
Would the AI start the pyramids when SH is available? My guess is no but don't know for sure. I agree there is an excellent chance Alex may make a wonder donation. I like the idea of keeping Athens in view--we should send our first axe down there ASAP. If he builds a settler we should be able to ambush it given the bottleneck he has to go through. Seems like at this stage his next build is either a settler or a wonder.

4 axes should be enough to take it, especially if we can pick up a single xp for some of the axes on the way there. We should be able to build 3 more axes in 8 turns.

I'd like to run a few WB tests on that before we try it. On a hill the archers are 3*2.75(50% city+25% hill +25% hill bonus+25% fort +50% walls).
Best is combat/cover or combat 2 would make us 5.5 vs 7.5 with a first strike (assumes we get all the axes promoted--slightly optimistic). My guess is the number is 5/2 or 8/3 to be pretty certain.

I made a test game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/85103/Jon_Ungar_BC-3670.CivWarlordsSave

If we can get 2 axes to CR2 we should have a good chance, if we manage 3 CR2 we would be mostly sure to take it with 4 axes.

We need to put together a coherent plan for our production and research.
I'm thinking axe, axe, axe, settler, (library), Oracle. Mysticism, (Writing), poly, priethood, metal casting.

TDK

To be honest, I'm still not convinced about 4 axes.
In the test game it's a loser.
I'd still say we want an extra axe. I don't think waiting is a deal breaker--it could even get us a wonder. Losing this battle is a big setback.

Merry Christmas to all:)

We need to put together a coherent plan for our production and research.
I'm thinking axe, axe, axe, settler, (library), Oracle. Mysticism, (Writing), poly, priethood, metal casting.


I would prefer we build axe,axe,axe,axe,axe, settler, Oracle
and research Myst->poly->priest->Metal Casting

I would only pursue writing/library if we choose against a quick conquest of our continent.

I would prefer we build axe,axe,axe,axe,axe, settler, Oracle

I'd probably prefer to skip the settler--just keep building axes and take out carthage. Assuming the city is high food that'll be another one to run specs. Yes it'll be far, but in the short term the loot will cover the extra cost, and in the long term a good spot pays for itself. Less hammers to conquer than build a settler (and we'll pick up a worker to go with it).
If we do go that route (or even just taking Alex), we could consider researching sailing to hook things up. We'll get much of the cost back in trade. Probably not worth it before MC
tho.
As for the oracle, I have no sense of when it gets built on prince so don't know how easy the machinery sling is. My gut feeling is it should be doable with the gold.

I'm away for a week--whatever plan gets traction I'll be OK with--but I think we should make one before proceeding.

Does that test game have a fixed RNG seed? I played it twice, lost twice in the same fashion, then played a third time, waited a turn, and took the city.

I assume the earlier figure of 2.75 (+175%) modifier for the city, hills etc is correct.

Axes to CR2 should be 5 vs 6.9 = 1 to 1.38.
Combat 2 would be 5 x 1.2 vs 3 x 2.75 = 6 vs 8.25 = 1 to 1.375
Combat 1 + cover would be 5 x 1.1 vs 3 x (2.75 - 0.25) = 5.5 vs 7.5 = 1 to 1.3636 which is marginally better still.
We should do 17 damage per hit, and lose 23

Even only with CR1 would be 5 vs 7.65 = 1 to 1.53,
Combat 1 only is 5.5 vs 8.25, = 1 to 1.5 better again than CR1
We should do 16 damage per hit, lose 24, so the difference is a 7 hits to win instead of 6 with Combat 2.

What odds of us failing to take Athens in a single turn are acceptable? I think 2 combat 1 axes per archer stand a good chance on average, but I have not yet calculated if they are 55% to win or 95%. 2x + 1 should be plenty, especially if Alex is building a settler or wonder instead of barracks and archers.

Any idea when he might complete SH or the pyramids for us? Should we go for Hannibal first?

If we find Carthage before finishing the axes, I would rush it before building the settler. I guess that it will be on a hill too, but we should only need two or three axes to replenish our losses. The 2nd city site needs some worker time, but we can mine the gold etc while waiting for it to grow, so the settler should pay for itself reasonably quickly once the worker is not required at London.

Will WW stop if we have conquered everyone we know? We lose out on a possible tech bonus for researching already known tech, and I suppose experience assuming we can limit the fighting to battles stacked in our favour, but my plan would be to prove that we do need astro and conquer this continent as quickly as practical, then settle aiming to tech to astro ASAP and dominate shortly thereafter.

Can we work out how many squares of land we need for domination?

but my plan would be to prove that we do need astro and conquer this continent as quickly as practical, then settle aiming to tech to astro ASAP and dominate shortly thereafter.



I agree. :goodjob:

We currently have 1.48% of land area, need 64%
We have 21 cultured squares, of which only 18 are land, 1 is lake.
So (64/1.48)*18 = 778.4 squares.

Mansa Musa is listed with 1.00%, not sure what is happening there.
Currently we have explored some 30 squares total EW, 25 NS, which would be getting quite close if it was a big rectangle of land. I would be surprised if this continent was big enough. More likely is that the two continents are almost equal, so we would need to control > 25% of the other continent and all of our own.

More likely is that the two continents are almost equal, so we would need to control > 25% of the other continent and all of our own. I tend to agree, we have yet to meet the remaining three opponents.

We can have 4 more axes out in 9 turns(1 chop, 1 whip). I tend to agree with Llib's build order(axe, axe, axe, axe, axe, settler, Oracle), who wants to play the next 9 turns and upload for discussion? We can then asses whether we have enough upgrades on our axes and if we should switch to settler or no.

Polytheism could still give us Hinduism, a nice bonus to pick up as we go. We should under no circumstances research Meditation, as it opens up Philosophy for the scientists.

TDK

Interesting numbers on the battle Mboza. I always assumed CR was the best promotion, but I guess one can only be sure of that when reaching CR3.

According to the test game, Combat 1 and Cover are better than Combat 2(16.3% to 16%). Do you know something I don't? How do you figure out the hit points stuff?

I estimate we can have the Oracle by 850BC, which I think is good enough on Prince.

TDK

Does that test game have a fixed RNG seed? I played it twice, lost twice in the same fashion, then played a third time, waited a turn, and took the city.

I believe so. I tried it twice and the combats were identical

What odds of us failing to take Athens in a single turn are acceptable? I think 2 combat 1 axes per archer stand a good chance on average, but I have not yet calculated if they are 55% to win or 95%. 2x + 1 should be plenty, especially if Alex is building a settler or wonder instead of barracks and archers.

I would think closer to 95%. If we lose the battle we are hugely set back in competition, while if we delay a few turns not such a big deal--might even get us a wonder. I would also guess that Alex would not build a 3rd archer for garrison--I would think either a settler (which might be great for us if we have an axe waiting to ambush) or wonder.

Any idea when he might complete SH or the pyramids for us? Should we go for Hannibal first?

I don't think I've ever seen the AI build the pyramids when SH or GW was available.

Will WW stop if we have conquered everyone we know?

Yes since we aren't technically at war until we meet them.

We lose out on a possible tech bonus for researching already known tech, and I suppose experience assuming we can limit the fighting to battles stacked in our favour, but my plan would be to prove that we do need astro and conquer this continent as quickly as practical, then settle aiming to tech to astro ASAP and dominate shortly thereafter.

I don't think the tech bonus will amount to much. We'll have to cripple any ai on our continent anyway pretty soon so I think better just take them out.

I don't think the tech bonus will amount to much.
I cannot see the tech bonus being important either, unless we let all three AI survive long enough for them to get alpha and trade amongst themselves, which would be really bad, IMO.

What might be possible is engineering a GG from experience gained against the last AI?


Interesting numbers on the battle Mboza. I always assumed CR was the best promotion, but I guess one can only be sure of that when reaching CR3.

According to the test game, Combat 1 and Cover are better than Combat 2(16.3% to 16%). Do you know something I don't? How do you figure out the hit points stuff?

Doh, I am wrong.

The source for the combat stuff was http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php

I assumed it has not changed since that post, but it might have, particularly the HP calcs, and I might have got the sums wrong :blush:. (There are 15 pages of comments, and I have not gone through them all. I think the damage has changed, but it only applies to already damaged units, and we still just need to maximise the attack:defense strength ratio) I have updated the previous post. But there is definitely a point when the +% Combat bonus is better than a larger CR/cover bonus, because all the non Combat bonuses are subtracted from the defender, rather than added to the attacker. The more bonuses the defender has, the better the Combat bonus becomes.

I have attached the excel file I used to redo the calcs.
I will update it at some point with first strike stuff, if I can figure out a sensible way of giving odds of surviving with n HP, without a big series of special cases for the first strikes

I agree the tech bonus is not worth much. I'm not sure Domination is faster than Conquest, but in either case we are gambling on Astronomy, which means we need Machinery by Oracle.

Mboza, will you take it and see to it that our axes get some xp? It might be possible to lure Hannibal's scout to the blade by hiding behind the jungle, waiting for him to walk past the indent in our culture.

TDK

Mboza, will you take it and see to it that our axes get some xp? It might be possible to lure Hannibal's scout to the blade by hiding behind the jungle, waiting for him to walk past the indent in our culture.
TDK
Don't have the save but I think we should hurry the first axe down to alex in case we get to ambush a settler/archer pair

We can have 4 more axes out in 9 turns(1 chop, 1 whip). I tend to agree with Llib's build order(axe, axe, axe, axe, axe, settler, Oracle), who wants to play the next 9 turns and upload for discussion? We can then asses whether we have enough upgrades on our axes and if we should switch to settler or no.


I`ve been doing some tests in worldbuilder and even with 2 promotions the odds of taking Athens with 4 axes don`t seem to be much better than 50-50, so I would not attack until we have 6 axes. If we need more promotions wouldn`t it be easiest to get them by attacking Mansa Musa. This would also give us another city.

Our capital is food poor but production rich, so it would be counterproductive to whip here.

I cannot see the tech bonus being important either, unless we let all three AI survive long enough for them to get alpha and trade amongst themselves, which would be really bad, IMO.

What might be possible is engineering a GG from experience gained against the last AI?


I agree the tech bonus is irrelevant. If we can get a GG from Hannibal I think it would be worthwhile.

Ok, I will take this set.

Whipping does look counter productive, we get only slightly better than 1 hammer / food, so we are better working the mines instead, at least until we build a granary.

mdy, we already have one axe and can raise another 4 axes in the next 9 turns. That will bring us to 5 axes total, a sufficient number for taking Athens IMO. If you want even more axes, then I think we get a better return on investment by building a settler instead. We can prechop forests there for obelisk and workboat.
Why do you think Mansa is easier to take out? Timbuktu is also on a hill and he fields skirmishers.

I'm somewhat disappointed by the teams lack of interest in the game, we really need everyone in on this.

Mboza, you seem to have a good take on combats, can you post an overview on combat probabilities for 5 axes vs. 2 archers etc.?
We also need an assessment of whether it's even worth it to invest in Athens. My guess is 4 more axes is the breaking point - if we need more than 4(208 hammers), a settler(150 hammers) is better. We could have a second city in about 12 turns, while Athens is something like 24 with 5 axes(+4 turns for each extra axe).
Robert, you are a ranked player, you must be used to making assessments like this, I'm interested in your opinion.

TDK

turn 0: 2200 BC: scout heads south, into the darkness
1: 2170
2: 2140 research myst, start poly, train axe 2, start 3. A bear is trapped west of London, so axe 2 is heading over there. Start chopping forest/hill.
3 2110 Greek scout N of London
4 2080 Find Hannibal borders, kill bear for XP
5 2050 Kill greek scout, inefficiently with same axe. Alex has a third archer.
6 2020 Finish axe 3, start 4, find Sparta (SE of London, NE of athens, 2 warriors (C2, C1) for XP)
7 1990 Alex has 4 archers.
8 1960 Finish axe, grow to 5 pop. Wanted to whip last turn, but decided it would not entirely overflow. Now it is a 2 pop whip, so will delay a turn?
Carthage has 1 archer, 1 warrior, 1 worker, sited on a plains cow. Two enemy scouts are ready to be picked off by our warriors.

Will pause here.

Athens has 4 archers, we have 4 axemen total, the 5th is 2 turns away, as I think it would be inefficient to whip now to bring it forward a turn. I suspect we will want at least 7 axes to attack 3 archers, assuming Alex is preparing to escort a settler with at least one of his 4 archers.

I would attack Sparta with the axe currently next to it, for XP. It can then head to Athens to seal the bottleneck, and the units currently around London can attack Sparta in 8 turns, on their way either to Athens or Carthage.

Ok, first approximation with excel

One Combat 1, Cover axe against an archer with +175% of bonuses is 16.1% (Game says 16.3%)

Two Combat 1, Cover axes against an archer with +175% of bonuses is 52.2% (underestimate, as this ignores damaged units doing reduced damage)

Three Combat 1, Cover axes against an archer with +175% of bonuses is at least 92.2% (underestimate, as this ignores damaged units doing reduced damage)

I think we would need 2.5 axes per defender. Slightly under half the defenders will win twice, requiring a third axe to finish them off. More defenders will lose first time round than will beat three axes.

Why do you think Mansa is easier to take out? Timbuktu is also on a hill and he fields skirmishers.


I did not know that Mansa has skirmishers, if he does I agree that we should leave him for later.


I suspect we will want at least 7 axes to attack 3 archers, assuming Alex is preparing to escort a settler with at least one of his 4 archers.


I would attack Sparta with the axe currently next to it, for XP. It can then head to Athens to seal the bottleneck, and the units currently around London can attack Sparta in 8 turns, on their way either to Athens or Carthage.

I agree with attacking Sparta fort the XP, but I would delay taking it until it has grown to size 2. It will make a decent production city in the long term and we can chop several axes there. It will also mean we can concentrate on axes instead of building a settler.

I agree that a ratio of 2.5:1 would be enough to take Athens if our units have 2 promotions. Sealing the bottleneck would be counter productive however. If we did Alex would keep his archers in Athens where they would be more difficult to kill, also Alex may build another city for us.

Will Sparta grow to size 2, or will it just pop an archer when it grows?

If Alex sends out a settler, would we want to capture it as a worker, or let it settle and then wait for it to grow? We do not need the axe to block Athens in, only to potentially attack anything that came out.

I did not know that Mansa has skirmishers, if he does I agree that we should leave him for later.


I think we should leave him for last. My only concern is those skirmishers defending a hilled/cultured city are going to be extremely costly to conquer without catapults

It will also mean we can concentrate on axes instead of building a settler.

I agree that a ratio of 2.5:1 would be enough to take Athens if our units have 2 promotions.


I agree with removing the settler from the build queue. In fact I'm thinking we should drop Oracle from London's build queue and only build axes. 2.5 to 1 may work out mathematically, but I would feel more comfortable with 3 to 1.

Athens should be our priority. Once taken we can chop/whip Oracle there.

I agree that Sparta should be taken at size 2.

Will Sparta grow to size 2, or will it just pop an archer when it grows?

If Alex sends out a settler, would we want to capture it as a worker, or let it settle and then wait for it to grow? We do not need the axe to block Athens in, only to potentially attack anything that came out.

Alex may build an archer there, but he is unlikly to whip one. I would let him found another city for us.

Will Sparta grow to size 2, or will it just pop an archer when it grows?
Presumably Sparta is working a 2f/1h tile and building an archer. If so, I think the archer is in right about the time the city pops.


If Alex sends out a settler, would we want to capture it as a worker, or let it settle and then wait for it to grow? We do not need the axe to block Athens in, only to potentially attack anything that came out

I'd say capture it. We definately need the worker plus the archer is an easy kill out of city. Maybe if we station an axe out of his sight range we can get the ambush easier?

I did not know that Mansa has skirmishers, if he does I agree that we should leave him for later.
I don't think we've seen one but I think it would be very unlikely he wouldn't by the time we could get there.



I agree with attacking Sparta fort the XP, but I would delay taking it until it has grown to size 2. It will make a decent production city in the long term and we can chop several axes there. It will also mean we can concentrate on axes instead of building a settler.

Agree.

I'm also thinking it makes sense to go for Carthage before Athens. It seems like Athens will not be an easy prize no matter how this plays out. Since Carthage is not on a hill and will be only +40%, it is a much easier target. We lose 1-2 axes, pick up a worker, and eliminate one of the AI (and get $). Carthage looks like a razer, so the remaining axes meet up with reinforcements from London to take Athens. Otherwise our force will basically sit around while we accumulate the strength for Athens. I think we're looking at minimum 3 archers and possibly 4. If we send 8 axes and we have to deal with 4 we have a problem. So we really need a pretty big force for Athens and hence the time to take Carthage in the meantime.

As for city development, Athens is at the health cap and will be unhealthy with 2 chops. I'd probably mine the river hill then mine the forest hill and skip the chop the worker is about to do.
I think whipping is definately not worth it w/o the gran.
I'd just keep building axes and skip the settler. Seems like that way we should be able to get enough for Athens, Sparta, Carthage and still get oracle.

I agree with ungy's strategy. Chop the forest hill, save the other and get a road to the cows as we grow London to size 7. There isn't any good spot for a second city until we can chop jungle so just focus on axes. There are going to be barbs coming from the north soon as well.

It looks like we have a very big continent. Probably close to 600 of the 780 tiles we need for domination but I'll do a count when the dust settles. It looks like we may be able to capture a few cities on the other continent and fill the north of our continent with garbage cities to win.

I'm suprised that Hinduism hasn't been founded yet. The other continent isn't going to have much strife if all three AIs become Buddhist; we will want to get there quickly to try and win before the AI gets longbows. At least this is a positive for the Machinery sling. The sling looks tough since we are still need a lot of beakers.

We will need 3 or 4 scientists (an academy in London is debatable since we will be researching Civil Service last, 2 for Astronomy, 1 for Optics and maybe Compass). Athens and possible Carthage can be our specialist cities while London and Sparta focus on production. We will probably want one more high food city for a great scientist if we want 4 great scientists. If our continent is close to the domination limit, it might be better to have the fourth gp be an artist to pop a city out of anarchy rather than researching Compass.

I agree with ungy's strategy. Chop the forest hill, save the other and get a road to the cows as we grow London to size 7. There isn't any good spot for a second city until we can chop jungle so just focus on axes.
I think a cow, gold, gold, fish city is a good city site. It could double our economy in no time. I don't see why whipping won't pay off as long as we don't have a cottage to work anyway. Maybe we should whip once and be sure to have a cottage next time the city grows to size 5.

Should we bring back a warrior as police and field our axes instead?

Why is Alex building 4 archers for his capital? It's not normal on Prince, maybe we should remove our warrior so it can't be seen from Athens.

I agree we should wait to capture Sparta until at size 2(but get a single xp there now). I wouldn't delay the attack on Carthage to wait for Sparta to grow though.

TDK

I think a cow, gold, gold, fish city is a good city site. It could double our economy in no time. I don't see why whipping won't pay off as long as we don't have a cottage to work anyway. Maybe we should whip once and be sure to have a cottage next time the city grows to size 5.

This would be a good commerce city, but it would take around 40 turns to really take off. Right now I think we are better off building axes. Whipping won`t pay off because if we mine the hills we will get more production by working the mines than by whipping.

Should we bring back a warrior as police and field our axes instead?

Why is Alex building 4 archers for his capital? It's not normal on Prince, maybe we should remove our warrior so it can't be seen from Athens.


I agree with swapping our warriors with axes. Alex is building extra archers to escort a settler.

As for city development, Athens is at the health cap and will be unhealthy with 2 chops. I'd probably mine the river hill then mine the forest hill and skip the chop the worker is about to do.
I think whipping is definately not worth it w/o the gran.
I'd just keep building axes and skip the settler. Seems like that way we should be able to get enough for Athens, Sparta, Carthage and still get oracle.

I agree with this.

This would be a good commerce city, but it would take around 40 turns to really take off. Right now I think we are better off building axes. Whipping won`t pay off because if we mine the hills we will get more production by working the mines than by whipping.
My point is we didn't mine any hills or build a cottage, so why is this relevant? If we plan on building a mine or a cottage and not whip, I would prefer the river cottage. I would still whip, it brings the last axe forward somewhat, and that axe might mean the difference between taking Carthage and not.

As to the second city, if we prechop a forest or two, the city will be contribute substantially to our economy by turn T20.

If we plan on just maximizing our military production short term and not increase our economy, we will definitely take a risk with the Machinery sling.

Mdy, you think he will escort settler with 2 archers? Or are 3 archers normal in a prince capital when AI is at war?

TDK

I`ve been playing a few test games and the Oracle was built at 910bc/780bc/610bc/415bc/385bc. The first 2 were built by industrious civs with marble.

If we don`t build another city I estimate we would get machinery at 700bc. If we build a city and pre-chop the forests as TDK outlined I think we could get it by 850bc.

If we are going to pull off a machinery slingshot, it would be less risky to build the other city. However if we don`t build the city and we still manage to build the Oracle we will be in a far stronger position (the extra production would be enough to destroy Greece as well as Carthage). I would take that risk. As no one has discovered polytheism yet the risk of an AI beating us to the Oracle is much lower anyway.

On prince I think the AI normally escorts with 2 archesr.

If we are going to pull off a machinery slingshot, it would be less risky to build the other city. However if we don`t build the city and we still manage to build the Oracle we will be in a far stronger position (the extra production would be enough to destroy Greece as well as Carthage).
Are you sure? The production put into a settler equates 2-3 axemen. We still need to research other techs besides popping Optics-Astro, like CoL, Writing, Construction, Mathematics, CS, Navigation; another gold city would be usefull for this. As I see it, we will need to invest massively in units to have a shot at Mansa or Alex, while at the moment we should have enough to take down Hannibal and let our surviving units check Alex and Mansa.

IMO, we are already messing up our strategy somewhat. I thought we agreed that Astro(or tech in general) was the bottleneck.
Right now we are playing towards a situation of imperial overstretch and a long . .. .. .. .ing way to Astro.
In short, we should be figuring out how to get to Astro in the shortest possible time, not worrying about 3 prince AI's. Are more axes the fastest route to Astro?

TDK

Are you sure?

Yes. Not only do we save on :hammers: for the settler we gain extra :hammers: by not whipping. Our worker is also free to chop the forest, and we can spend longer building axes before we have to start the Oracle.

If we send our 4 existing axes to Carthage it should fall around T+15 (if it only has 2 archers defending). Our 5th axe is built at T+4 and should be able to take Sparta at T+11 (if there is an archer there we just wait until we get another axe there). The 6th axe can go to cripple Mansas capital. We can get 4 more axes built by T+19 which can combine with the 2 survivors from Carthage outside Athens by T+34. We then have time to build 3 more axes before we have to start the Oracle if we need reinforcements to deal with Greece.

We still need to research other techs besides popping Optics-Astro, like CoL, Writing, Construction, Mathematics, CS, Navigation; another gold city would be usefull for this. As I see it, we will need to invest massively in units to have a shot at Mansa or Alex, while at the moment we should have enough to take down Hannibal and let our surviving units check Alex and Mansa.



The only essential techs for Astro are: ironworking/compass/optics/sailing/writing/maths/calendar/COL(if we need caste system).

If we get 4 GS we can bulb optics and compass. If the 4GS are generated by hiring 4 scientists in 2 cities as soon as we have COL (in practice it would take longer) then it would take at least 63 turns to get them. During this time we would need a minimum of 2184 beakers, so we would only need 35 beakers a turn on average. The scientists alone would provide 30 beakers if the cities had libraries, so we will have no difficulty managing this. If we only wanted 3GS we would still need 50 turns. To generate 3042 beakers in this time we would need an average of 61 beakers a turn.The output of 8 scientists,2 gold mines and the palace together with libraries alone would produce 60 beakers a turn so we could manage this as well.

In time we will want to found the 2 gold city, but we can afford to leave it till after we have built the Oracle. This is the quickest way to astro because the limitation is not how quickly we can research, but how quickly we can generate the GS. This means we need to capture the cities as quickly as possible. This would also give us a stronger productive base to take advantage of astro when we get it.

On prince I think the AI normally escorts with 2 archesr.
are you sure about this? I would have assumed one.

I see what you are saying Mdy, I just think another city would give us much more flexibility, we could keep Carthage and still make it to Machinery earlier. Carthage could then chop the Oracle and London could concentrate on military buildup.
Another gold city would also mean we can have Civil Service(Maces, Bureaucracy) (and Construction) right after we pop Astronomy.

More importantly, after Metal Casting, we would get to Writing and CoL(Caste System) much faster and hence, we would start popping Scientists sooner.

So my vote would be to whip the 5th axe next turn and overflow into Settler. The 4 axes we already have take Carthage and the 5th go ahead to Sparta, staying close enough to the new city site in case the warrior at Athens spots anything that could be a problem for our new city.
I would not attack Mansa's scout with our warrior, we can't use the xp and we need the warrior as police in London.
What is our wounded axe doing in London Anyway? If our axes were a bit closer to Carthage we might have had a shot at it at 20% defense.

TDK

In time we will want to found the 2 gold city, but we can afford to leave it till after we have built the Oracle. This is the quickest way to astro because the limitation is not how quickly we can research, but how quickly we can generate the GS. This means we need to capture the cities as quickly as possible. This would also give us a stronger productive base to take advantage of astro when we get it.
I agree completely.
Another problem with founding the gold city first is that we are really worker short. The conquest plan will add a couple of workers.
As for a risky machinery sling, I think we should take the risk.
Several factors would bode well for a late AI oracle:
1) poly not founded yet.
2) we know 3 AI will not build it

So my vote would be to whip the 5th axe next turn and overflow into Settler. The 4 axes we already have take Carthage and the 5th go ahead to Sparta, staying close enough to the new city site in case the warrior at Athens spots anything that could be a problem for our new city.

I'm just not in that big a hurry to get the gold city up. Gold cities have a conflict between growth and $--this one needs a border pop, a WB, and lots of worker turns to develop. It also presumably needs a garrison. I'd rather spend the worker turns on London and the hammers on axes. I think the axes for Athens will be at least as good an investment as a settler. Athens may end up producing 2 GS for us if we get it soon enough--plus it comes with a worker.

I would not attack Mansa's scout with our warrior, we can't use the xp and we need the warrior as police in London.

agree--it's in terrain anyway so the odds aren't good enough. We should take out the carthage scout tho.

I'm just not in that big a hurry to get the gold city up. Gold cities have a conflict between growth and $--this one needs a border pop, a WB, and lots of worker turns to develop. It also presumably needs a garrison. I'd rather spend the worker turns on London and the hammers on axes. I think the axes for Athens will be at least as good an investment as a settler. Athens may end up producing 2 GS for us if we get it soon enough--plus it comes with a worker.
So I presume you want to burn Carthage? We can't keep it as it will slow our tech to much without a second gold city. That leaves us with possibly one city for a long time(can we count on(or afford) taking Sparta? Will we get a trade route there? I don't see trade routes in the tech tree, do we get one from the start?). Where would you build the Oracle?
I don't see the new city needing many worker turns, it would really be enough to pre-chop one forest for an Obelisk and build the first goldmine to be worked while we expand borders and produce a work boat, followed by a worker at size 2. IMO, we need a second worker in London anyway to chop axes out of Sparta. We have a river connection there as in Warlords you don't need Sailing to trade the copper on rivers.

I would attack Sparta once and leave our axe at there for now in case it grows.

Any idea when Sparta was founded?

TDK

The wounded axe went W to fight a bear, then ambushed a scout. Figured it was better spending a turn healing in London than 2 turns elsewhere, as it would be finished healing in time for the next axe build. If I give that axe C1 and cover, will it fully heal without having to wait a turn?

I looked at the graphs, and cannot see anything that suggests when Sparta was founded. The C2 warrior only has a 20% fortified bonus, so at least 4 turns. We had not scouted that section before, so no upper limit,and I assume we never saw a greek settler.

I am not sure that we can count on taking Sparta, as I expect the AI to whip an archer as soon as it can, Only harm in waiting is it is one less axe to send to Carthage. We should have a trade route down that river, as Sparta looks connected to our gold.

If we have 4 axes towards Carthage, and one at Sparta, we have nothing to ambush anything coming out of Athens.

Do we want to raze Carthage now, or just beseige it, and take it when we can afford it?

We still have to scout S of Carthage, and there is just visible land SE, which could be a possible culture bridge, or connected to the continent.

Could/should we chop the oracle in Athens, Carthage or Sparta?

We are 9 turns from Priesthood and then are 39 turns from MC. Will building the gold city help shorten this time scale? Does it make a difference if we steal a worker for it? We only need one mine for it to make a positive contribution, while waiting for the culture to pop.

Do we want coastal cities in case we just need triemes?

Should we be worried abouit barb axemen appearing?
And does the London worker want to chop the hill forest, leaving the other two for health, river cottage (or mine) and road the cow?

are you sure about this? I would have assumed one.

I`ve checked in worldbuilder, and the AI escorts with 2 archers.

So I presume you want to burn Carthage? We can't keep it as it will slow our tech to much without a second gold city.

We can easily afford Carthage without a second gold city. At size 4 it will generate +9 commerce. We also get the gold for capturing it. This must be more than it`s maintenance cost so it will speed up our tech a bit. We will also be able to take Sparta before Athens.

Another gold city would also mean we can have Civil Service(Maces, Bureaucracy) (and Construction) right after we pop Astronomy.

We don`t want CS before Astro as then our GS will lightbulb paper. We can easily afford to build our 2 gold city after the Oracle and still research construction before Astro. We would also be able to get part of CS done(espesially if we go via the 4GS path).

I see what you are saying Mdy, I just think another city would give us much more flexibility, we could keep Carthage and still make it to Machinery earlier. Carthage could then chop the Oracle and London could concentrate on military buildup.


If we build axes we also get a better city: Athens. If we get it at size 4 it will produce +16 commerce immediatly, we would also get golf from the capture. At size 2 and working 1 gold mine the other one would produce just +10. The Oracle has to be built in London otherwise the we would be unable to use Athens/Carthage as a GS farm which would significantly delay astro.

More importantly, after Metal Casting, we would get to Writing and CoL(Caste System) much faster and hence, we would start popping Scientists sooner.

If we delayed taking Athens we would be unable to get it ready to start popping scientists before we get to COL, which would be counter productive. We would probably get to COL first if we took Athens first anyway.


We are 9 turns from Priesthood and then are 39 turns from MC. Will building the gold city help shorten this time scale? Does it make a difference if we steal a worker for it? We only need one mine for it to make a positive contribution, while waiting for the culture to pop.

Do we want coastal cities in case we just need triemes?

Should we be worried abouit barb axemen appearing?
And does the London worker want to chop the hill forest, leaving the other two for health, river cottage (or mine) and road the cow?

Triemes and barbs are no problem for the moment. I would chop all the forests in London. We can solve the health problem later by connecting resources.

If we have 4 axes towards Carthage, and one at Sparta, we have nothing to ambush anything coming out of Athens.


This is true, but taking Carthage is more important than destroying 1 of Alex`s settlers and we can`t do both quickly. Also if we pull our forces back Alex should rebuild his gold mine for us.


I agree with leaving Mansas scout alone.

I'm willing to go along with the plan. I still think it's a risky proposition and we might lose the Oracle. We probably have to start paying maintenance for our troops soon.
If I understand the plan right we will not build Settlers or Workers until after the Oracle?
I think we should attack right away, will London be unhappy if emptied?

Good news on the 2 archer escort, that makes me slightly more optimistic about this plan

We don`t want CS before Astro as then our GS will lightbulb paper.I know that. That's why I wrote "right after we pop Astronomy".

TDK

I'm willing to go along with the plan. I still think it's a risky proposition and we might lose the Oracle. We probably have to start paying maintenance for our troops soon.
If I understand the plan right we will not build Settlers or Workers until after the Oracle?
I think we should attack right away, will London be unhappy if emptied?

London will be ok--not sure if it's -1 or -2 but -2 is OK.
Assuming we get poly we'll pop the border in 4 turns--that'll help a lot with fog busting.
I agree that there is risk to the plan, but I think it is reasonable.
One thing that we haven't discussed too much is that a mad rush to astro with oracle and 3 GS might leave us short of the forces needed to take out the distant AI--the conquest plan will help with that.
As for missing the oracle, no question it is a risk on an engineered map but as we've already discussed the chances should be much less than normal.

Ok, is that us settled on the axemen building?

London should be ok with the unhappiness if we leave it empty.

So far it has been:
Ungy
TDK
me.
Shall I do another half set (tomorrow evening, already far too late tonight for me to start now) or does someone else just want to take it now?

Mboza, you are still up.

I think we should work the lake(2f, 2c) instead of the forest(1, 2h) in London, assuming we don't use the whip.

Should we pull back from Athens with our warrior, he seems unlikely to build anything but archers while we remain. His worker didn't even leave the city yet...

TDK

Should we pull back from Athens with our warrior, he seems unlikely to build anything but archers while we remain. His worker didn't even leave the city yet...

I think we should--especially if we're sending all the axes to Carthage. I think a lot of the value of keeping Athens in sight was in ambushing a settler.

I agree with withdrawing the warrior. (We could use it as the city garrison for Sparta).

Is it worth scouting round Athens first before heading north, to look for bronze etc?

The warrior may as well do some scouting east of Athens on it`s way north.

Ok, starting the second half

hrm, managed to blue screen while loading the save. Interesting graphical glitch where it only drew the eyes of the guy beside the menu, and the flames of the fire.

turn 8, 1960BC (cont) start chop, defeat Carthagian scout (promoted to medic 1) discover yet another gold hill E of Athens.
turn 9, whip london, carthage has bronze and horses, neither improved. Warrior moves out of sight of Athens to heal, defeat Spartan warrior. Drop to 90% research, as we are now paying unit support. Hannibal decides to whack our warrior scouting Carthage.
turn 10, 1900 BC. Found Hinduism, passed on the opportunity to convert. Started Priesthood, built whipped axe
turn 11, Alex has sent two archers north, no settler, I run away with recovering warrior.
turn 12, 1840 BC, archers are following warrior towards Sparta, I sense they will be ambushed by our axes in a couple of turns
turn 13, move to chop hill forest, build axe, delay while I do some tech support for my brother.
turn 14, start chop hill forest, Mansa scout reappears E of London.
turn 15, scout dies at the hand of an axe as it moves S of London.

.... finish priesthood, start MC. The warrior heads towards the axes at Sparta, I walk a series of axes past Sparta, with one or two pasues to heal or to keep one adjacent.

turn 18 Alex appears with a settler/archer S of Sparta

turn 19 Sparta grows, and finishes an archer, I have one axe outside, and one a square away trying to out-manuoevre the Greek archers. Alex settles Corinth on a plains hill, 1E of what looked like quite a nice spot, just too far to get the gold E of Athens.

turn 20, 1600 BC, Conquer sparta, in straight forward fashion. Civ produces an error message after telling me how much gold we got. Screen shot attempt failed with an out of memory message, and then it crashed while I tried to get back to save the progress, hence the missing details above. Had the autosave, so I replayed the moves, with the same combat results. Uploaded it after the combat.

Have already ordered the next PC upgrade, just waiting on delivery, so hopefully this instability will vanish with a new motherboard and fresh OS install.

Anyway, result is we have Sparta, with 3 turns of anarchy remaining. A pair of greek archers are nearby, and another pair are in the freshly settled city of Corinth to the south. We have 2 axes enroute to Carthage (6 turns) within sight of Corinth, and another two at Carthage, keeping an eye on the bronze and the horses. Carthage has one twice promoted archer, one unpromoted archer, a warrior and a worker. 4 axemen could do it, though it would get dicey if the unpromoted archer survived to fight against the axe that fights the warrior in a second turn. Two axes and a medic warrior are at Sparta, with a third between Sparta and London.

The worker is ready to build a river cottage for London growing, or it can start chopping around Sparta.
Oracle is 20 turns of base production away, MC is ~35. Did not see any wonders or religions being founded.

I estimate we would have 90-95% odds of taking Carthage with 4 axes as long as 2 are combat 1/cover. I think these are acceptable odds as long as he does not build another archer. I suggest we send 1 axe east to cripple Mansa soon.


The worker is ready to build a river cottage for London growing, or it can start chopping around Sparta.

I would build a mine and chop a forest instead. In the long run we will be more production limited than commerce limited, and if we wanted extra commerce in the short term it would be more efficent to work the lake.

In Sparta I think we should build monument-barracks-axes.

I set production to the monument, thinking it was worthwhile to get the horses. But how long might it take for religion to spread down the river to Sparta, and save us the hammers?

Our capital is not connected by a river at the moment. Even once it is hinduism tends to spread very slowly, I don`t think we can rely on this.

In Sparta I think we should build monument-barracks-axes.
I disagree on this one.
I would divide our needs into short term (everything critical), and longer term (not so important). Short term we need to get Carthage and Athens and oracle for machinery. The horse adds 2H and 1c over a plains forest. It requieres a 45h monument and 6 worker turns to connect. The horse cannot be worked for around 25 turns at minimum--really too late for the critical Athens battle. By just building unpromoted axes we can get a couple more out for the Athens battle.
We have critical needs for worker turns--I would recommend mining the river hill first, then either roading the cow to fix the health or more chopping.

Our capital is not connected by a river at the moment. Even once it is hinduism tends to spread very slowly, I don`t think we can rely on this.
It is connected already. I asked earlier if we will get a trade route as well(In BTS, you need Sailing)? This would give us a greater chance of grabbing the Oracle.
I would not build a Monument, IMO we should send the worker to Sparta now and chop (Barracks), Axe, Axe, Axe...

I agree we should attack Carthage with 4 axes.

TDK

The Greek city of Corinth blocks the trade route. We can still get a trade route at the other end by building a road. I suggest we build this first, afterwards I would build the mine on the river hill so we don`t have to work any unimproved tiles. Taking Athens and Carthage will resolve any immediate health issues so we can delay hooking the cow up.

We can get hoses almost as quickly by taking Carthage, so I am fine with skipping the monument in Sparta. The additional axes can capture/raise Corinth once we have taken Athens. In Carthage I suggest monument-workboat-granary.

The Greek city of Corinth blocks the trade route.
???
Corinth is south of Sparta. Sparta is hooked up to the copper and gold. What makes you think we won't have a trade route?

TDK

The river passing Sparta does not connect with our capital in the north. The connection is to the south and along the coast. We have copper because it is next to a different river. I can`t see why we have the gold. I suspect it is a peculiarity of when the computer evaluates trade connections.

Well, that certainly doesn't make any sense, I guess we'll just have to see what happens. The cities are clearly part of the same trade group, I would be surprised if we don't get a trade route.

Who wants to go next?

TDK

I can play tomorrow evening if there are no objections.

I can play tomorrow evening if there are no objections.

No objections here. My monitor needs to be replaced. Hopefully I will be up & running by end-of-weekend if I can find the time.

The river passing Sparta does not connect with our capital in the north. The connection is to the south and along the coast. We have copper because it is next to a different river. I can`t see why we have the gold. I suspect it is a peculiarity of when the computer evaluates trade connections.

I would hazard a guess that the square with a river on each side is counted as connecting the two without a road, probably a bug.

From the graph:
-CRC probably built a Library before the Oracle, which tells me they grabbed Civil Service, as I don't see how Writing is possible if going for Machinery sling.
-Murky grabbed a religion, and from their score graph it seems they founded an early second city or captured a capital(possible archer rush?). They were initially behind CRC and us in score but came back, which means they built a settler early or had a suboptimal early growth plan(maybe going for bronze before AH, which would enable axe rush?).
Smurkz and Murky probably settled a turn late.

TDK

T1: We have a trade route in the capital.

T5: Attack Carthage. Kill 1 archer and 1 warrior but lose 2 archers.

T6: Take Carthage lose 1 axe. Kill 1 archer and 2 capture 2 workers. Pillage 125 gold.

T11: Build monument in Carthage.

T14: Start pillaging Mansa`s improvements.

T16: Build workboat in Carthage.

T25: Finish researching metal casting. Build Oracle, grab machinery.

Alex has sent another settler and 2 archers east.

We should be in a position to take Athens in 3 turns.

Now we have the Oracle we can build a settler in London to found that 2 gold city. Afterwards I would recommend a library. We can start chopping/whipping reinforcements in Sparta. Carthage and Athens will be our GS farms so I suggest we build a monument,granary, library, and then start hiring scientists once the cities are at size6/7. It may be an idea to save some of the forests to chop caravels/galleons there.

Corinth is the next logical target, but do we want to keep it? 1W would be a better city location, but would cost us an extra settler.

Turn 80, 1600 BC: You have captured Sparta!!!

Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 8.8%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 23.1%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Hannibal's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Churchill's Axeman (10.25)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 40 (60/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 9 (82/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 40 (0/100HP)

Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.28) vs Hannibal's Archer (3.90)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Combat Odds: 83.9%
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (69/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (50/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (31/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (12/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 21 (41/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Hannibal's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman (4.73) vs Hannibal's Archer (2.58)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Combat Odds: 96.6%
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (68/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 21 (20/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 18 (50/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Hannibal's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Hannibal's Archer!
Turn 86, 1420 BC: You have captured Carthage!!!
Turn 86, 1420 BC: The Carthaginian Civilization has been destroyed!!!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 103, 955 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sparta!
Turn 103, 955 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 104, 940 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sparta!

Turn 105, 925 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sparta!
Turn 105, 925 BC: You have plundered 6? from the Farm!
Turn 105, 925 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 105, 925 BC: Churchill has completed The Oracle!
Turn 105, 925 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 106, 910 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sparta!
Turn 106, 910 BC: You have discovered Machinery!


[edit: I can`t access the upload page at the moment so I have attatched the save.]

Wow, great turn set mdy!

I would skip the monument in Athens and just chop/whip the library right out of anarchy. We should have Writing finished by that point and it can regrow quickly without the Granary. I would suggest Math, Currency, Hunting and then Code of Laws after Writing. We aren't going to start building courthouses soon so the chop bonus and extra commerce are probably better. Carthage and Athens are the only cities with enough expenses to justify a courthouse and they have other priorities. This does imply razing Corinth to rebuild in the better location later. Its also more likely that we will get Hinduism spread to multiple cities without missionaries if we avoid Confucianism.

I would also build a worker and escort unit in London before the settler. The worker can build a cottage and the city grow to size 6 before the settler (work the bananas not mine while building unit). Its counter-productive to build the double gold city if we can't immediately start chopping the monument and have Athens' queue free to produce a workboat. Athens and Carthage need their workers to get a headstart on great scientists so I think we need another worker or two.

Popping a great priest in London for Theology and Theocracy after the scientists is a possibility if we are aiming for conquest. We need to build a temple after the worker and settler and micromanage the gpp if we want to go this way. Producing 7xp units with a settled great general is a big bonus for a charismatic leader. We can promote to level 4 and heal after the first battle. We would clearly benefit by avoiding Confucianism if we want to try this.

What is Mansa doing? His score doesn't suggest a second city and I haven't seen any comments about a settler leaving but he only has two skirmishers built and size 4.

QUOTE]We aren't going to start building courthouses soon so the chop bonus and extra commerce are probably better.[/QUOTE]

The point of going for COL after writing is not to build courthouses, but so we can run Caste System. If the other continent is separated by ocean the limiting factor will be how long it takes to get 3GS for optics/astronomy. A few extra hammers for chopping won`t make up for delaying it, and it may be better to save most of the forests to build the invasion force for the other continent. I was thinking of: COL-hunting-sailing-ironworking-compass-maths-masonry-construction-calendar-CS. Given the limited amount of research we have left to do I don`t think currency will pay off in time.
would skip the monument in Athens and just chop/whip the library right out of anarchy.

The monument is for happiness. The quickest way to astro requires a minimum of 3 scientists in Athens. We will also want to work the gold, and to work 3 food tiles, so we need +7 happy. We will get +6 for a charasmatic leader with gold so we need 1 more, where else would you suggest we get it?

I would also build a worker and escort unit in London before the settler.

We will capture 2 workers in Athens, but it probably only needs 1. The other could be escorted to the new city site. Carthage could also manage with just 1 once we have a spare unit to escort it.

What is Mansa doing? His score doesn't suggest a second city and I haven't seen any comments about a settler leaving but he only has two skirmishers built and size 4.
Mansa only has 1 city. He is so week beacuse his city havs very poor production and we have been pillaging his tiles.

The point of going for COL after writing is not to build courthouses, but so we can run Caste System. If the other continent is separated by ocean the limiting factor will be how long it takes to get 3GS for optics/astronomy. A few extra hammers for chopping won`t make up for delaying it, and it may be better to save most of the forests to build the invasion force for the other continent. I was thinking of: COL-hunting-sailing-ironworking-compass-maths-masonry-construction-calendar-CS. Given the limited amount of research we have left to do I don`t think currency will pay off in time.


The monument is for happiness. The quickest way to astro requires a minimum of 3 scientists in Athens. We will also want to work the gold, and to work 3 food tiles, so we need +7 happy. We will get +6 for a charasmatic leader with gold so we need 1 more, where else would you suggest we get it?


We should get the additional happiness from the elephants but you may be right - Athens has enough food to run 4 scientists + gold + 3seafood while slowly starving at size 8. I'm not sure how long we would be at that size before Calendar. It might save 5 or 6 turns if Athens is micromanaged to generate the 3rd great scientist while working 4 or 5 scientists and starving after Carthage generates the 1st and 2nd.

Edit: Calendar is irrelevant for the Athens discussion. We settled on the dye so researching Calendar replaces the monument happiness with the dye happiness. Maybe whip/chop a lighthouse after granary and library to run 4 scientists with a push to 5 after hooking up the spices in Carthage. We might be able to get 4 great scientists (Compass, Optics, and Astronomy) by running 4-5 specialists in Carthage and Athens.<