Agree with zyxy - our worker should focus on improving special resources, even if it means leaving the capitol for a while.

Did you see what the bear did after you moved NE?

By the way, if we're worried about health, a forest grew near the capitol, so after one chop we still have 4 forests for health, or 2 more chops without changing the health picture.

I too think we should send our first worker northwards, just like the turnplan says. And I'm nervous enough to support an axeman or two directly after the settler.

I probably won't be around again until the 26th, in the mean time don't do anything I wouldn't do... ;)

EDIT: Oh, and Merry X-mas to all of you! :xmas: :wavey:

Btw we do have a seer in the team (see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6275111&postcount=139) :D

Well, it's not that amazing. Copper is most often on grassland hills, and I don't think it can appear where there is a forest, so this hill was pretty much the likely spot if we did have starting copper.

I will do some planning computations and post suggestions in the next few hours. If we don't need to connect copper, then IW next still seems indicated. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that we will have both copper and iron close, but we still need IW in order to use our rice. We probably would have been better off relative to other teams if the copper resource were iron instead.

The bear was 4W1N of Smurkzdon last turn, so it must be 5W1N this turn (we can see all of the other adjacent tiles). It might just move back and forth on that peninsula---which would be fine with me.

The copper and gold tiles are so good, I think that Smurkzdon should just remain at size 2, working those 2 tiles, until we have the rice farm. Thus, improving other tiles around Smurkzdon is a relatively low priority---useful, but later is just as good as now.

Smurkzdon should definitely build a 2nd worker at some point during this time; we don't want to build worker #2 in city #2 and prevent growth there, plus it will take too long there (30+ turns from now).

I don't think we need a 2nd chop, any more (and the health penalty is material), so I support the idea that the current worker should chop the current forest, then go back to partial construction of the rice farm. We can interrupt that when it's time for it to move off to support city #2 with improvements.

Given that, let's go ahead and play to the completion of the settler (9 more turns), then discuss.

I suggest that if the bear isn't threatening us (or any other enemy), wake the 2nd warrior one turn before the settler completes, and move it NW onto the hill. This will give us some more information, and let the warrior continue on to scout the coast ahead of our settler.

Just checking in to let you know I am here. I seem to get into the discussion at a time when there is little to add. I agree another worker built in Smurkzdon to be a good idea the low growth until we have removed the jungle in the rice tile suggest it.

I'll be at home for the duration of the christmas holidays, we drew the short straw this year so have the whole family at our place. Sneaking off to play some Civ is actually a real relief so I am looking forward to the turn set.

Bio: Just turned 50, MBA, worked in IT and Telecoms (what else when in Sweden?) Started out at Nokia way back, went through a startup in the late 90's with mobile services as main focus. Company floated in 2000 and I left a year later (not dissimilar to DaviddesJ 's journey I guess, though we only reached a value of $1 billion. ;) ) Now in the process of getting a new startup to ramp up to commercial launch thus having a bit of a problem occationally of keeping my civving at a level I feel happy about. Mobile services, community and entertainment (games) are key ingredients.

Turn 36, 2920 BC
Start chopping.

Turn 37, 2890 BC
zzz

Turn 38, 2860 BC
zzz

Turn 39, 2830 BC
zzz

Turn 40, 2800 BC
chop finished. Settler due in 5 turns. The bear continues switch on and off,
and I start wonder if there is a hidden ressource between gold and cow that
prevent him from chasing our warrior... I know for a fact that bears do not
move on ressources... Horses ???

Turn 41, 2770 BC
Hannibal scout pays us a visit. Hopefully we can start axes real time soon...

Turn 42, 2740 BC
Hum. Seems like Hannibal is getting a little too easy in our land. I kill the
northern scout (95% + easy experience+move which was planned any way).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/99729/hanni_visit2.jpg

Turn 43, 2710 BC
healing (6 turns).

Turn 44, 2680 BC
stopped farming (4 turns remaining).

Turn 45, 2650 BC
Settler completed. Ultra-early plan is to move Settler NW, then NW-NW, worker
N-N, then NW-NW (which would give us intel on sea-food BEFORE settling),
production to worker which would be completed 1 turn before IW. Of course I
would feel safer with an axe first (6 turns) but that would delay rice farm.

Save uploaded here.

Production in city 2 ? I would go barracks.

Well done!

Your plans sound good to me. We haven't seen any AI sofar (except scouts), so I think we can gamble that this will remain for another 16 turns and train a worker first.

A slightly more efficient worker move is to go N, farm for 1 turn, then move NW-NW, then move N and farm rice. Of course there's no guarantee that we will ever finish (or need) that farm, but still.

If there's no seafood, then I would settle SE of the rice. Starting a rax sounds good to me.

Let's hope that that bear doesn't cause any trouble...

Btw, unkle, is this a hand-off?

Christmas eve is a bit intense so I plan on posting a final plan based on any input at this time tomorrow (at the latest). Then play later tomorrow unless there are major issues to address.

"Got it"

I still think we need to take risks, so I vote for building the second worker before the first axeman.

We need animal husbandry soon to take full advantage of the new city.

Are we going to use the whip in the new city? Or the capitol after we chop/farm the rice. If so, revolt to slavery before founding the second city.

We now have 3 war weariness points against Hannibal. This will decrease by 1 point per turn, so isn't a concern yet. It is something we will want to think about - you get war weariness every time you fight somewhere that you are not culturally dominant. Eliminating an AI and the 1pt/turn time reduction are the only ways for us to reduce war weariness.

Interesting tidbits from the information screen:

We are #7 in food, population and soldiers. We are #1 in GNP and production. Of currently known AI, Hannibal's production is lowest and Alex's power is lowest. Hannibal and Mansa have double our power. Mansa's score is 107, ours is 86. Alex has 22% of the world's population! Hannibal's culture flat-lined recently.

Buddhism has been founded in a faraway land. Nobody has discovered Hinduism. Since we will get no natural religion spread, the only way we can get happiness from religion is to found it ourselves or conquer a city that has religion.

Hannibal and Alexander are getting mutual struggle points. Mansa is not.

Mansa and Alexander are in slavery, Hannibal is not.

Athens is the #1 city at size 6! Carthage is #4 at size 4. Timbuktu is #5 at size 4.

Second time we have questions on hand-off or not, so I suggest we explicitly say it. Of course I could have played the remaining 3/4 turns without asking, but since it was agreed the other way....

I can play several turns today (like worker moves + settling city) today: seems like city settling is a good hand-off point to me. Understood comment from zyxy on farming.

Unless I hear from wotan in the next ~6 hours, I'll do that.

Crossposted with unkle and want to be sure he sees comment about revolting to slavery in my post above.

Just saw Chris and wotan comments... Ok if I do not hear wotan explicitly agreeing on me finishing the turnset, I'll let him do it since he said the magic words ;)

Btw I agree on the need to take risks, so worker first seems a good option to me too.

According to Chris, Athens is surely a pretty nice city... Hope he does not already have Phalanxes...

Hey Chris, I saw your comment on revolting. Understood: better loose 1 production turn before settling.

And since we are wondering, I would do that mostly because it is an insurance: whip and spear/axe/warrior if necessary.

I agree on switching to slavery before settling.

unkle, I think it's ok for you to finish your set. Wotan will definitely check the forums before playing, so there's no risk of double play.

The general plan sounds fine. If we move worker or warrior to the space 1N of gold, from there we can see one more space that could potentially be seafood (the one 2W1S of gold). Would we try to settle 1S of gold if we could pick up the seafood? Probably not, it's not much better than the rice, and we can always add a city on the peninsula to work that tile later.

Promoting the warrior gets it back to full health more quickly.

Do some people have a strong preference for always playing exactly N turns? I have always much preferred to pass the game at natural decision points. It doesn't make a lot of difference except that I think it goes faster that way (as opposed to waiting for someone who might play just a few turns). But we can do whatever people prefer.

IMO the N turn limit is to be used as a guideline. A natural stop point close to N is fine with me.

I'll be away for christmas on the 25th and 26th. Merry Christmas everyone, and see you again afterwards!

Seafood is hard to defend and probably not worth it - we can stop and discuss if we happen to see it, but I definitely don't want to see us lose the warrior to the bear just on the chance of seeing seafood.

I agree - N turns is a guideline - handoffs can happen as desired.

I'd promote the warrior with combat 1 so it can become our first medic. We won't have cash for promotions anytime soon.

What happens if we settle a city adjacent to an animal, which is now inside our borders? I'm assuming it will move out, but I've never tried it.

I take it we're all agreed on settling NW of cows, unless we discover something?

I would settle N of the cows if we were creative, the location is somewhat better in the long run, more chance of finding horses in the extra plains tiles, and we get fresh water. But we aren't creative and the cost of waiting for border expansion is way too much.

Seafood is fairly easy to defend: just place a trireme.

What happens if we settle a city adjacent to an animal, which is now inside our borders? I'm assuming it will move out, but I've never tried it.

Yes, it will move out. In particular, it will not attack anything inside our borders.

I think we all agree that natural handoff is better than N turns strict limits. Niklas started the trend anyway :D so always agree with your captain is a good rule to me. Anyway I was in the mood for "never think it's a handoff before it is explicit" :p.

So.

Turn 45 continued, 2650 BC
switch to slavery. Worker N farm. Settler NW.

Turn 46, 2620 BC
Worker and settler NW*2. No seafood so nothing to decide.

Turn 47, 2590 BC
Settle Oxsmurz (sounds good to me ;) ) and start rice farm. Barracks just started. Warriors have not moved, so exploration in the north can be done. I did not upgrade the warrior, since moving it was not an option. Bear is where expected anyway.

This is an official handoff :goodjob: so wotan please feel free to play !! Save here

Merry Christmas to every one in the team. I expect next 2 days to be less active (we are expecting visits from Santa Claus in the house, so I may be in charge.... :lol: ), but I will log on anyway to check new stuff.

The advantage of promoting the warrior right away when it's injured is that it returns to full health faster. So, e.g., if another enemy came along a couple of turns later, we would have been more ready to fight if we had promoted earlier. It's not a big deal, and it's moot now.

Now I would suggest we just move the warrior to OS and fortify there. The value of further exploration is pretty limited, since we're already committed with our 2nd city and don't plan to build more for quite a while, so I would just play defense until we have at least one axeman.

After IW, I think we want Hunting, AH, Wheel, Pottery, in that order? OS can work rice, so that it will start getting 4 fpt when the farm is done. When it grows to size 2, work cows and rice until the gold mine is ready. SD will presumably build axeman after worker. Worker #1 will mine the gold after the farm is done. Worker #2 will build the rice farm in the jungle. I don't see any big decisions for quite some time.

I don't usually follow the other teams a lot, but I'm curious what's going on with CRC. In 400 BC, they are gaining about 28 culture per turn. That seems like a lot. I'm figuring they must have built at least two wonders? Oracle and Great Library?

We should be thinking about whether we want to build Oracle, and if so, what we want to get out of it. At Prince level, we should have many options; it just depends what we want to prioritize. Our capital would certainly be a huge powerhouse, with Bureaucracy.

In particular I would like to see whether we'll need Astronomy or not. If we do need it, then we should avoid Meditation so that we can bulb Astro (and possibly also Optics).

This is to avoid Philosophy on the Great Scientist priority table? It's possible we will never get COL, depending on what research route we pursue. We don't need COL for Astronomy. (I agree, though, for now we can certainly avoid Meditation, to be safe.)

It's amazing how little is needed to research Astronomy:

Fishing
The Wheeil
Mining
Sailing
Pottery
Bronze Working
Writing
Metal Casting
Iron Working
Mathematics
Compass
Calendar
Machinery
Optics

To this, we have to add Masonry and Construction if we want catapults, and several more techs if we need knights or macemen.

Can we conquer a world of Prince-level AIs with just swords (and/or war elephants), using two GS to lightbulb Astronomy after a minimal research path?

Just saw Chris and wotan comments... Ok if I do not hear wotan explicitly agreeing on me finishing the turnset, I'll let him do it since he said the magic words ;)

Btw I agree on the need to take risks, so worker first seems a good option to me too.

According to Chris, Athens is surely a pretty nice city... Hope he does not already have Phalanxes...
A bit intense at this end now and yesterday so I was not too careful reading your report unkle missed the fact itw as an interim report. Then I scroll down this morning and discover you have finished your turn set now. So a renewed "got it" ;) Am anout to download the save and open it. BRB with comments.

What happens if we settle a city adjacent to an animal, which is now inside our borders? I'm assuming it will move out, but I've never tried it.

I did this in a GOTM and the animal moved off into neutral territory the next IBT.

Maybe CRC built Stonehenge and Oracle?

I discovered something weird: at 100% science we produce 19 beakers per turn, and at 0% we get 19 gold per turn. At any percentage in between, the sum of gold and beakers is 18. Rounding error? In any case, this means that we should run 0% or 100% science always. So now we can do 0% for 1 turn, followed by 100% for 18 turns.

On timing and research order
Worker 1 will need 8 turns to farm, then 1 to move, and 6 to mine the gold hill. Worker 2 needs 9 turns to appear, then 2 to move, 5 (?) to clear the rice, 8 to farm. This means that 15 turns from now we need something else to do for worker 1, and 24 turns from now for worker 2. We cannot finish AH in 15 turns (it will take 18-19 turns, see below). So worker 1 will have to do something else for a few turns, maybe farm the dyes, or the grass tile W of the lake.

Please switch the Oxsmurkz citizen from cow to rice. Oxsmurkz will grow in 10 turns and do 1 hpt until the goldmine finishes (i.e., for 14 turns), and will then increase to 4 hpt. So it takes about 30 turns to finish the rax, and we should aim to connect the copper by then. This takes two road sections on the cow and the forest SE of it (7 worker turns).

Tech cost:
IW: 170 beakers (= 204/1.2)
Hunting: 23
AH: 179 (=214/1.2)
Wheel: 127
Beaker total is 499. We currently do 19 bpt at -1 gpt. Add the free 1 bpt, then our net production is 19 bpt. After 14 turns we'll get a second gold mine for another 7 bpt, for a total of 26 bpt (maybe one less for additional maintenance). In the first 14 turns we'll produce 14*19 = 266 beakers, the remaining 499-266 = 233 beakers will take 9-10 more turns.
So in this order we get Wheel in 23-24 turns, probably just in time to connect Oxsmurkz for axe construction if we use both workers. Conclusion: the research order proposed by David seems good to me.

This is to avoid Philosophy on the Great Scientist priority table?
Yes.
It's possible we will never get COL, depending on what research route we pursue. We don't need COL for Astronomy. (I agree, though, for now we can certainly avoid Meditation, to be safe.) You're right, but CoL can be a useful tech - especially if we overexpand, or if we want to get Bureaucracy. Meditation almost certainly is not of any use to us.

It's amazing how little is needed to research Astronomy:

Fishing
The Wheel
Mining
Sailing
Pottery
Bronze Working
Writing
Metal Casting
Iron Working
Mathematics
Compass
Calendar
Machinery
Optics Thanks for the list! (I crossed out what we already have). On Prince level, self-research is pretty quick compared to bulbing. We could try to get CS or Machinery from Oracle, maybe. I have no idea when the AI builds it at Prince AW.


Can we conquer a world of Prince-level AIs with just swords (and/or war elephants), using two GS to lightbulb Astronomy after a minimal research path?

I would add catapults for hill towns with culture/walls defense. But then, yes, let's try it with minimal techs!

Now I would suggest we just move the warrior to OS and fortify there. The value of further exploration is pretty limited, since we're already committed with our 2nd city and don't plan to build more for quite a while, so I would just play defense until we have at least one axeman.

After IW, I think we want Hunting, AH, Wheel, Pottery, in that order? OS can work rice, so that it will start getting 4 fpt when the farm is done. When it grows to size 2, work cows and rice until the gold mine is ready. SD will presumably build axeman after worker. Worker #1 will mine the gold after the farm is done. Worker #2 will build the rice farm in the jungle. I don't see any big decisions for quite some time.
OK, I plan on following this and techwise IW/Hunting/AH. Play peacefully and stop should any adversaries appear over the horizon.

Agree with plan.

I dunno about CRC, but I don't think we're set up for wonders so much. I'd rather explore and find out if a rush is possible.

I discovered something weird: at 100% science we produce 19 beakers per turn, and at 0% we get 19 gold per turn. At any percentage in between, the sum of gold and beakers is 18. Rounding error? In any case, this means that we should run 0% or 100% science always. So now we can do 0% for 1 turn, followed by 100% for 18 turns.

I haven't studied the rounding in Warlords closely. I endorse your suggestion, though.

Tech cost:
IW: 170 beakers (= 204/1.2)
Hunting: 23
AH: 179 (=214/1.2)
Wheel: 127

We should get 1.4 on AH after we finish Hunting.

If worker #1 has a few spare turns after finishing the gold mine and before AH is ready, work on the dye farm is probably the next priority. I'm not sure there will really be much time, though.

On Prince level, self-research is pretty quick compared to bulbing.

I think the difficulty level affects the cost of the techs, but I don't think it changes the relative value of research vs lightbulbs.

Getting at least one great scientist early is certainly valuable. We don't have a particularly food-rich position, though. If our great people come relatively late, then lightbulbing may be the best we can do with them.

Almost done cleaning up after santa's reindeer. Will start playing when I have put away shovels and stuff. ;)

Follow DaviddesJ's plan. and the tech research suggested. Playing peacefully until a "natural" break or until enemies come over the horizon in which case i will stop and post.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28942/wotsmurk.JPG
Turn log

0 – 2590BC pre-flight
Set research to 0% for a turn.

IBT: Alexander adopts Slavery.

1 – 2560BC
Research back to 100%
Warrior in Oxsmurkz.

2 – 2530BC
Nada

3 – 2500BC
Nada

IBT: Strongest civs: Mansa, Alex and Hannibal followed by three unknown and Churchill in the final slot.

4 – 2470BC

IBT: A forest grows in the “start” tile. Alexander shows up with a Workboat SW of Oxsmurkz.

5 – 2440BC
Nada

6 – 2410BC
Nada

IBT: Mansa Scout appears in SE.

7 – 2380BC
Nada

IBT: Hinduism founded in a distant land.

8 – 2350BC
Rice farmed, Worker to Gold.

9 – 2320BC
Smurkzdon Worker -> Axeman

Warrior in Smurkzdon kills Mansa Scout.

10 – 2290BC
We enter the Classic era, IW -> Hunting.

No Iron appears on the map, I guess that would have been too much to ask for. ;)

11 – 2260BC
Hunting -> AH
Worker starts clearing the Jungle.

12 – 2230BC
Nada

13 – 2200BC
Nada

14 – 2170BC
Nada

15 – 2140BC
Smurkzdon Axeman -> Barracks

Game crash when I press F9? Restart.

Goldmine finished Worker move to forest to chop for a couple of turns prior dealing with Cow.

16 – 2110BC
Jungle is cleared from Rice. So what was the plan again? :D

18 – 2050BC
AH -> Wheel

This is silly, game crashes again. Twice I am defeated by a four year old managing to hit Ctrl-Q when trying to get my attention. BTW, stupid not to have a control question, “Do you really want to quit?” It just goes to the end of game sequence.

Worker to put pasture in Cow tile.

23 – 1900BC
Cow pasture finished

24 – 1870BC
Wheel -> Research set to Archer.
Rice farmed.

After Action Report

I played until the end of the current research plan.

I allowed to Axeman protecting our Southern Worker a bit of freedom to explore the immediate surrounding and there is room for a productive town south. Another Cow and Banana down there. And we have a sighting of Alexander’s border in the SE.

A couple of turns between finishing the goldmine and starting the cow pasture was used to prechop a forest. I couldn’t remember the shortcut to put a message on the game map so put a note on the screenshot pic.




Game log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2590 BC to 1870 BC:

Turn 47, 2590 BC: Oxsmurkz has been founded.
Turn 47, 2590 BC: Alexander adopts Slavery!

Turn 54, 2380 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 55, 2350 BC: Hannibal converts to Hinduism!

Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior (2.00) vs Mansa Musa's Scout (1.60)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 56, 2320 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Mansa Musa's Scout is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Mansa Musa's Scout is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Mansa Musa's Scout is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Mansa Musa's Scout is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Mansa Musa's Scout is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Mansa Musa's Scout!
Turn 56, 2320 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 62, 2140 BC: Logging Game to File: SGOTM6.txt

Turn 64, 2080 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: Logging Game to File: SGOTM6.txt

Turn 70, 1900 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!


The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Smurkz_SG006_BC1870_01.CivWarlordsSave)

EDIT: Checked the results pic and we are ahead of all teams at 1870BC!!!! Though I am sure had the other teams known why we have focused on things that give us points they would be less curious. ;)

With two barracks partially completed and Alexander a close neighbor, it looks like an axe rush is appropriate. Oxsmurkz has a healthy cap of 4, so when it gets to size 4, start whip/chop/whip/chop and off to war we go.

We are now tied with Alexander on power/soldiers, primarily due to iron working. Let's go kill someone.

At this point, I don't think we need archery. How about a beeline to construction?

Barracks was in prep of the Axerush we have been discussion. The one in Ox stared prior to my turn set.

Archery was chosen from the fact it was the first in the list. ;) Pretty sure we will have a discussion about tech priorities.

Connecting the cow and then connecting to Smurkzdon through a forest will add 2 to health cap.

Checking back in! :salute: Had a nice and peaceful christmas, and didn't overindulge, so I'm in good shape and all set to play again. :D

And I come back to find the game in a much better shape than when I left, good going unkle and Wotan (and team!) :goodjob: !!

I'm really glad to see the second worker completed without trouble, and an axeman around to keep us a lot safer. Had I been here I would have advocated axeman first, so good thing I wasn't ;).
I couldn’t remember the shortcut to put a message on the game map so put a note on the screenshot pic.
Alt-S toggles sign mode on and off.
EDIT: Checked the results pic and we are ahead of all teams at 1870BC!!!! Though I am sure had the other teams known why we have focused on things that give us points they would be less curious. ;)
Quite amazing, but nonetheless gratifying. We are also second in power, despite building a settler and two workers. I think we can safely assume that we're the first to IW (of the teams that have reached our position).

I have a bit of catching up to do, will be back to check the save and give suggestions later today.

EDIT: X-post with Chris. An Alex Axerush (AAAr) seems like a very good idea, let's hope he has built more Phalanx than Archers. :mischief:

Barracks was in prep of the Axerush we have been discussion. The one in Ox stared prior to my turn set.

I wasn't complaining, just noting the facts. I'm actually happy about having barracks. They're spiffy.

Archery was chosen from the fact it was the first in the list. ;) Pretty sure we will have a discussion about tech priorities.

Yup. I was trying to start that discussion. My suggestion is a beeline to construction. Comments?

Connecting the cow and then connecting to Smurkzdon through a forest will add 2 to health cap.

Unfortunately, without a border expansion, there aren't any exciting squares to work once the cap rises, so we might as well whip.

Besides, I like using the :whipped:

Wasn't taking it as a complaint just adding to my report since I had not covered the barracks builds and the tech choice.

We should allow the forest that grew in the start tile to be left for health whould we elect to have forests remaining since it can be counted for both locations.

And whipping is fun. ;) Can't use it enough in real life, underlings get troublesome if you use it. Wish you could though occationally, like just prior to when a project is supposed to deliver.

Well played!

I think I'm next, so "got it".

Alex has a workboat next to Oxsmurkz :). Does the AI scout with WBs?


Preliminary plan
I agree with axe rush on someone, most likely Alex. So build queue is easy: rax -> axe (repeat), for both towns. As soon as we have a second axe I will send one to Greece to scout.

Research
I think research towards construction is good, especially now that we have no iron (or horses). Techs to research are Writing, Math, Masonry and Construction. I would choose this order, mainly to get Math asap (better chop value).

We do 26+1 = 27 bpt at the moment, at -1 gpt cost, so net 26 bpt. Research costs are:
Writing: 256/1.2 = 214
Math: 535/1.2 = 446
Masonry: 171/1.2 = 143
Constr: 750/1.2 = 625
Total: 1428 beakers, that's 55 turns at current speed. Getting to Math would take 25 turns at current speed.

We could also research Pottery, and/or Mysticism/Poly/Priesthood, to lower the research cost of writing and masonry, and to gain access to granaries and Oracle. Pottery is also needed for Astro. The alternatives will cost extra beakers though, for example Pottery is 171/1.4 = 122 beakers to research, and saves only 256/1.2 - 256/1.4 = 30 beakers on writing.

So I would choose to avoid these additional techs for now, unless we want a shot at the Oracle.

Production
Without granaries, I'm not sure whipping is a good idea. Each whipped pop brings 44 hammers, but costs (30 + 3 * popsize) food. For a size 5 town, this means we get (roughly) 1 hammer for 1 food. For smaller towns, the ratio is slightly better, but not much. This means that hills will be better than farmed grass tiles, productionwise.

For example, consider Smurkzdon: At size 5, it could work rice + gold + copper + farmed dyes + mined grass hill, for +3 fpt, 12 hpt and 22 commerce per turn. Per 15 turns, it will produce 12*15 + 44 = 224 hammers with one whip for one pop. Alternatively, Smurkzdon can work rice + gold + copper + farmed dyes + 2 mined grass hills, for +1 fpt, 15 hpt and 20 commerce per turn. Per 15 turns, it will produce 15*15 = 225 hammers. It will also produce 1 pop per 45 turns (or we can grow the town once more for another 3 hpt miner). In favor of the first option is that it produces more gold.

Oxsmurkz will do 1 fpt, 13 hpt, 8 commerce per turn at size 5, working cow + rice + gold + plains hill + grass hill (will be covered by Smurkzdons culture in 6 turns), for 15*13 = 195 hammers per 15 turns.

In total therefore, we can count on about 8 axes per 15 turns, without chops. If we want to use the whip, then granaries seem necessary. Also, we would have to find a way to whip for 2 pop instead of just 1.

Workers
I would postpone chopping as much as possible until after Math comes in. Also, our workers still have some roads to build, and hills to mine. As first actions, I would let the Oxsmurkz worker road the cows, then mine (and road?) the plains hill. The Smurkzdon worker first roads the forest SE of the cows. Then mine the hill W of Smurkzdon?

Btw, Hannibal founded a religion, and Mansa has skirmishers. This makes Alex by far the most appealing target. It also suggests that catapults will be needed soon.

I think the difficulty level affects the cost of the techs, but I don't think it changes the relative value of research vs lightbulbs.

So that means that a GS will always bulb the same fraction of Astronomy, independent of the difficulty level? I think that this is true, but I never checked.
In this case, a bulb will produce fewer beakers at Prince level than at Emperor, and thus researching the bulbed number of beakers by hand takes less time on Prince than on Emperor (assuming the same commerce production). But, it still takes the same number of turns to generate a GS independent of difficulty level. In this sense, bulbing becomes less effective on lower difficulty levels.

Getting at least one great scientist early is certainly valuable. We don't have a particularly food-rich position, though. If our great people come relatively late, then lightbulbing may be the best we can do with them.

Hopefully we will conquer a better town :). Otherwise, we can run a single scientist in the capital and produce a GS in 50 turns - easily quick enough for Astro. Of course, we will also need a library, which brings up the question whether we want to build one when we get writing. Of course this interferes with our axe rush...

I agree with the proposed research plan, and I agree that getting Construction fast should be our next primary goal. I don't think stopping for Pottery is worth it, and I definitely don't think that the Oracle is worth researching Myst->Med->Priesthood, especially since it's been quite a while since Buddhism was founded and we'd be hard pressed to claim it first.

I think for now the AAA should take precedence over library/GS, we'll have time to think about that later.

Barracks is ok but I do wish you had discussed it.

We seem to have lost 55 hammers, Smurkzdon stopped working the copper some time ago? If we had continued working gold and copper, we would have barracks done, and half of another axeman, by now.

So that means that a GS will always bulb the same fraction of Astronomy, independent of the difficulty level?

No, that's the opposite of what I said. GS always gives the same number of beakers, but the tech costs less at the lower difficulty level.

Otherwise, we can run a single scientist in the capital and produce a GS in 50 turns - easily quick enough for Astro.

Sure, we can certainly generate one by then. But we would wish to have three or four.

There are several possible development paths:

1. Granaries and libraries to make our cities more productive.
2. Axemen to conquer one or more neighbors.
3. Construction to build catapults then kill all of our neighbors.
4. Priesthood and Oracle (for Civil Service and Bureaucracy?).
5. Great people for settling or academy.
6. Build settlers to put down more cities.

Ultimately, our winning time is going to be determined by when we reach Astronomy (assuming that's necessary---it would be a totally different game if not). Any of the plans above could accelerate our research pace.

I think we could just build enough axes (or swords, once we find iron) to kill all of our neighbors on this continent. The cost of two granaries and two libraries is 9 extra axemen; killing enemies at Prince level isn't that tough. But that means we aren't doing #1 or #4.

Or we could research Pottery and Writing, then push for Construction while building granaries and libraries in the meantime. We will certainly kill our opponents this way, it will just take longer. One advantage of a slower conquest is that our opponents could build wonders and found cities for us in the meantime.

Or we could do the CS slingshot, which isn't directly on the path to Astronomy but gets us a much more powerful capital (Bureaucracy), and eventual potential for macemen, and Caste System for making great people once we find a good food site, and courthouses so we can expand more. The problem is this takes a lot of time and it isn't directly helping us deal with our opponents.

An option I left off is Machinery slingshot, I just don't see the point in this. We would need to research Metal Casting soon, which isn't a very helpful tech in the short term, and Machinery, when we get it, is an expensive tech on the path to Astronomy, but it doesn't really help us much in the short term either. So I don't consider this a contender.

Of the choices above, I tend to think we should do the CS slingshot. We can get CS before turn 110, which is very competitive. CRC apparently did this, and also built Stonehenge. We would be at roughly their same pace, despite our setbacks (I think many teams probably didn't find the banana start). I would skip Stonehenge and use our axes to conquer Greece. We can build quite a few axes, while still generating enough hammers to get the Oracle at the same time as COL.

If we're lucky, we'll find iron in Greek territory, and we can build swords to deal with our remaining opponents. War with Greece might also get us a Great General (we are at 5/30 now), which we might use for Military Instructor in Smurkzdon. (Synergy with Bureaucracy and Charismatic, pump out a level 2 sword every few turns?)

Is there any way to tell how many cities Greece has, when in AW mode? Normally you can just check the trade table. I am curious if we are seeing the borders of Athens, or of a 2nd Greek city.

Checking in, back from Christmas. I agree with DaviddesJ: Oracle slingshot on CS would make Smurkzdon a powerhouse. Of course getting this AND enough Axes to get Greece can be, hmm, technical. But it would definitely be terrific.

While I agree that a CS slingshot would be überterrific, I remain a bit sceptic regarding our chances to be the ones to build the Oracle. How early can we have Priesthood? And how early does the Oracle normally get built by the AI at this level and setting? Sure, the AW might help us in this case since the AIs will build more units... Anyone up for some calculations here? I would, but I still have a lot to catch up on after christmas. Maybe tomorrow if no one else feels like it before then.

Of course getting this AND enough Axes to get Greece can be, hmm, technical.

I think we should plan carefully (especially how to use our workers), but I don't think it's too bad. Alexander might be dead before we even start the Oracle. Smurkzdon can potentially generate 17 hammers/turn (at size 6), so it can build Oracle in as few as 14 turns. So I think we don't have to start the Oracle for perhaps 20 more turns. We can have 7 or 8 axemen by then, I think.

On the research side, we need myst/poly (if we want to avoid med) and priest, then caste. But in warlords do we need Math or was that changed in BtS only ?

P.S. Smurkzdon needs 20 food to grow to size 3. We will have to choose between working rice and copper (emphasize production, grow in 4 turns) or rice and gold (emphasize research, grow in 5 turns). I would suggest the copper, even though that will probably delay COL by a turn.

According to the BtS Info Center, which is much more comprehensive than the Warlords equivalent, the only techs that were changed with BtS were Computers, Fiber Optics and Robotics. So I suppose that means we need Maths for CS.

On the research side, we need myst/poly (if we want to avoid med) and priest, then caste. But in warlords do we need Math or was that changed in BtS only ?

Oops, duh. I was thinking that was a BTS change, but you're right, CS requires Mathematics in this version of Warlords. Sorry about that.

Too bad we don't have those beakers that went into Iron Working. :cry:

In that case, I would suggest Pottery-Writing-Mathematics for now. I don't see the point in building the Oracle without Mathematics. And it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to skip Pottery. We are going to want granaries soon enough.

Seems they nerfed it in a warlords patch... I did not play that much warlords, so that's probably why I missed it...
edit: xpost with DavvidesJ:

It does not really mean we need to switch now. But rather check what we can reasonnably get iwth Oracle that fits the plan (getting Construction/Astro).

It does not really mean we need to switch now. But rather check what we can reasonnably get iwth Oracle that fits the plan (getting Construction/Astro).

I don't think building the Oracle for Construction, or Calendar, or Metal Casting is worth the trouble and time it will take. And I spoke out against Machinery already. So it seems to me that we should set aside thoughts of the Oracle, for now.

It is getting late here and I am working tomorrow :(
But I still would advise checking how long would CS take through Oracle before getting against it. In fact we need math going to Construction, plus Math allow good chopping, so it is just counting how much Oracle/CS cost us vs Construction. Which I'll do tomorrow if Wotan can wait for 24h :). I agree we'll probably dismiss it though

But I still would advise checking how long would CS take through Oracle before getting against it.

I guess the question is whether someone wants to run some test games to see when the AIs build the Oracle at Prince, and if 'it's possible for us to get Mathematics and COL before the AIs build it.

In any case, we might as well research Writing and Mathematics first, right? The only question is maybe if we want to skip Pottery.

Right we can go to Math, I would skip pottery since I do not see us building Granaries for now (I was convinced by zyxy brilliant demonstration). And we do have some better option than cottage for now.

Bed time :blush:

While I agree that a CS slingshot would be überterrific, I remain a bit sceptic regarding our chances to be the ones to build the Oracle. How early can we have Priesthood? And how early does the Oracle normally get built by the AI at this level and setting? Sure, the AW might help us in this case since the AIs will build more units...

AW doesn't significantly help us, because the AIs that are on other continents aren't at war with us and aren't affected by it, so they will build the Oracle whenever they otherwise would.

I agree the best thing would be some test games to see when Prince level AIs usually build the Oracle.

Right we can go to Math, I would skip pottery since I do not see us building Granaries for now (I was convinced by zyxy brilliant demonstration).

I didn't really understand the argument against granaries. Even without any pop rushing, we're going to need them just to grow our cities to their full potential, in a reasonable time. We can also use the health.

Although cottages are not a top priority, I would also be tempted to build one cottage, at least, SW of Smurkzdon. Might as well use those river tiles.

We could well fit in a cottage or two. The question is what we're giving up/delaying in order to research Pottery now. Of course we will want it sooner or later, but now? I think it depends on how far we think we can get with Axes. Since we have Mansa and Hannibal (with a religion) as close neighbors, it seems to me we'll need Catapults. Could an extra cottage actually speed up our way there?

Since we have Mansa and Hannibal (with a religion) as close neighbors, it seems to me we'll need Catapults.

I'm not sure what you mean by need. Certainly we can conquer everyone on our continent with swords and axes, it's just a question if we want to. It's only Prince! In SGOTM5, CFR conquered the whole world (at Monarch) with swords and axes and no catapults, right?

If you're willing to lose a sword or axe for every defender, you can kill anything we are likely to meet. And by attacking sooner, rather than waiting for catapults, you fight fewer and weaker defenders. Plus the tech for catapults does nothing to improve our production (compare to Calendar, same cost, which is a huge benefit).

I like granaries, whip, cottage, so would support a sideline through pottery.

Another slingshot to consider on Warlords is the Great Wall -> Pyramids. The Great Wall generates great engineer points, though it's not as effective since the 2.13 patch which reduced it to 1pt/turn instead of 2pts/turn.

We gotta go fast and furious on the war. This is Prince level, so I support DaviddesJ's plan to rush Alex before catapults. We need the cities we will capture.

The Great Wall would also be useful if our opponents sent troops to attack us, we could fight them inside our borders (which we want to do anyway, to avoid WW) and get extra GG points.

But IMHO it's way too expensive, without stone. And waiting 150 turns for a Great Engineer is also not sensible.

We seem to have lost 55 hammers, Smurkzdon stopped working the copper some time ago? If we had continued working gold and copper, we would have barracks done, and half of another axeman, by now. In hindsight I should have run the Bronze until the farm finished. I actually changed to Rice when the jungle cleared so 8 turns at +2 food but -5 hammers, How that translates to 55 hammers lost is beyond me though, I can only count to 20 lost? I framed the unimproved rice for 8 turns (mistake) when 4 turns with it farmed would have given the same amout of food. So 4 turns worth of hammers are actually lost = 20 hammers. I am very sorry about this. I guess the conflicts I had with my computer and another interested party during the end phase of my turn set might have influenced my ability to fully function. ;) Bad call on my part to run food from the unimproved rice, will not happen again. Sorry.

As mentionned I have nothing against Pottery (if it was free I would not hesitate :rolleyes: ) but if it delays our mid-term targets (cats, at least that was previously planned, unless we decide otherwise) I have some mixed feelings for it.

Currently axe-rushing Alex seems our next 1-2 turnset priority. So production-wise, it seems we are done. I do not mind whipping/building/chopping granaries though, for sure. I still need to be convinced that getting cottage now is a good thing.

I also think Calendar would be terrific, but it does not fit the short-term objectives too. Sure it is Prince only, but I'd rather see how we do against Alex before thinking that we can delay Cats....

No, that's the opposite of what I said. GS always gives the same number of beakers, but the tech costs less at the lower difficulty level.

OK, I misunderstood. I checked the code, and you are right. The number of beakers generated by a GA, GM, GP or GE is 1000+2*population_size, and 1500+3*population_size for GS. This is for normal speed, and it is multiplied by 1.5 for Epic. There is no modifier for mapsize or difficulty level, apparently.

I don't know how population size is measured, but I assume that it is the number of pop points. So that means we need 50 pop to get just a 10% increase in beakers, i.e., it hardly matters.

Which techs could we bulb? The most expensive ones on the route to Astro are:
Astro: 4290/1.2 = 3575 beakers (1 GS plus research, or 2 GS)
Machinery: 1501/1.2 = 1250 beakers (1 GE)
Optics: 1287/1.2 = 1072 beakers (1 GS)

The other two tech goals (Civil Service and Construction) have no really expensive techs, except for CS itself. CS could be obtained by a GP if we avoid masonry. A GE or GP will be hard to get, so I think we should aim for 3 GS.

What is the research effort we are looking at?
Of course we don't know whether we'll need Astro. But we met 3 out of 6 rivals in the first few turns, so it seems reasonable to assume that the other three are overseas. They could be reachable by galleys, but I would not gamble on it. Techs needed for Astro: pottery, sailing, writing, math, calendar, metal casing, compass, machinery, optics, astro. Assuming we'll bulb Optics and Astro, the research effort is roughly 4350 beakers (167 turns at present speed, although that means little of course - reality is probably closer to half this time).

We also don't know whether we need Construction. The additional research effort would be masonry + construction: 770 beakers (30 turns at present speed). Axes do reasonably well against Archers with, say, 100% defense bonus (city with 25% fortification + 20% culture), but when culture defense goes up to 40-60% or the city is on a hill, we'll need to bring triple the number of defenders.

Oracle: in my 3 test games, it was built once in 820 BC (turn 112), and twice not yet built in 520 BC (turn 132). We are currently at turn 70. Do we know when CRC built it?

It takes 390 beakers to research Myst + Poly + Priesth (15 turns at present speed). Best free techs IMO are Machinery (1250 beakers) and CS (1430 beakers). For Machinery we would have to research Pottery and MC for 950 beakers (about 36 turns), for CS we need to research Writing, Math and CoL for 1280 beakers (about 50 turns). Of course research times will drop once we conquer nice towns or construct libraries

Is Bureaucracy worht it? It would yield perhaps 15 bpt, and 8 hpt. It costs 625 beakers + Oracle (225 hammers) or 2000 beakers to get. In the second case, it seems not worth it, in the first it probably is.

Conclusion:
I would spend the next 20-25 turns producing raxes and axes. After that, build/whip granaries and libraries. It will take three towns about 60 turns to generate 3 GS (at 2 scientists per town, without caste system), so we should get started on that soonish. We'll need writing for libraries in around 25 turns from now.

If we want the Oracle, then we can research pottery, myst, poly, priesthood, writing, in that order. In this timeframe we'll build/chop our axe army and some granaries. Our workers will hook up Oxsmurkz and then build some riverside cottages for Smurkzdon. When writing comes in, whip/build/chop libraries, and research math, followed by CoL. Train more axes while researching Math, perhaps also a monument for extra pop, and build/chop Oracle while researching CoL.

If we do not want Oracle, then I would also skip CS - too expensive to research. In this case we can research Pottery, writing, math, followed by the techs towards construction or towards Astro, depending on what our axes find.

Pottery slows us down by three turns, but granaries are essential for whipping - that's the argument I was trying to make, not that granaries are bad. Also, cottages seem necessary to speed up research.

Is a finish date around turn 200 possible?

Which techs could we bulb? The most expensive ones on the route to Astro are:
Astro: 4290/1.2 = 3575 beakers (1 GS plus research, or 2 GS)
Machinery: 1501/1.2 = 1250 beakers (1 GE)
Optics: 1287/1.2 = 1072 beakers (1 GS)

I don't think you get the 1.2 multiplier for lightbulbs. I can check that, if necessary.

Oracle: in my 3 test games, it was built once in 820 BC (turn 112), and twice not yet built in 520 BC (turn 132). We are currently at turn 70. Do we know when CRC built it?

Looks like around turn 110. That's plausible to me as that's about the earliest they could possibly get Math and COL.

I don't think we're directly competing with them (because of the jungle setback) but we can still get information from what they do.

It will take three towns about 60 turns to generate 3 GS (at 2 scientists per town, without caste system), so we should get started on that soonish. We'll need writing for libraries in around 25 turns from now.

The 3rd GS costs 450 GPP, that's 90 turns at 6 GPP/turn, and that assumes you have two other cities to generate the first two GS sooner.

If we want the Oracle, then we can research pottery, myst, poly, priesthood, writing, in that order.

What is the advantage of putting Mysticism, Polytheism, and Priesthood before Writing and Math?

In hindsight I should have run the Bronze until the farm finished. I actually changed to Rice when the jungle cleared so 8 turns at +2 food but -5 hammers, How that translates to 55 hammers lost is beyond me though, I can only count to 20 lost?

In 24 turns we generated 16 food and 79+52+45 = 176 hammers. 24 turns of gold and copper would be 9*24 = 216 hammers. So you're right, 8 turns of rice instead of copper gave +16 food and -40 hammers. 55 was my mistake. And you're also right, the food lets us grow faster and work more tiles later, that will make up for some of the hammers.

The 3rd GS costs 450 GPP, that's 90 turns at 6 GPP/turn, and that assumes you have two other cities to generate the first two GS sooner. You're right, I miscounted. This begs the question whether we want to switch to Caste System at some point. Which in turn opens up the possibility of a 4-th GS, for Compass.

What is the advantage of putting Mysticism, Polytheism, and Priesthood before Writing and Math? It saves about 30 beakers on Writing (Priesthood is an optional prereq). Of course, this order will delay Writing and Math. If we want to build axes and granaries before libs, and if we want to focus on cottages and leave the forests for later (chop Oracle?), then this delay does not hurt, I think.

I'm getting the impression that beakers will be more needed than hammers. If this is true, then we need to focus our strategy on increasing science output.

I'm getting the impression that beakers will be more needed than hammers. If this is true, then we need to focus our strategy on increasing science output.

But perhaps the best way to increase science output is to conquer our neighbors quickly. That may very well be the best way to generate great people. Our current cities don't have enough food to run more than two specialists, even if we did switch into Caste System.

In 24 turns we generated 16 food and 79+52+45 = 176 hammers. 24 turns of gold and copper would be 9*24 = 216 hammers. So you're right, 8 turns of rice instead of copper gave +16 food and -40 hammers. 55 was my mistake. And you're also right, the food lets us grow faster and work more tiles later, that will make up for some of the hammers.
Well, still does not make up for a stupid call. Should of course have kept working the bronze until rice was farmed. :(

Based on the discussion sofar, here's an update and expansion of the play plan.

Long term plan
Win by conquest or domination. I assume that Astronomy will be needed. Construction may be necessary for cats. CoL may be needed for courts, Forbidden Palace and Caste System. Civil Service (Bureaucracy and maces) is powerful.

Mid term
Whack Alex with axes. Possibly do Oracle slingshot to Machinery or Civil Service.

Short term
(I'll probably not play as far as this plan goes, but some planning ahead never hurts.)

Cities

Smurkzdon: work rice + copper for 4 turns, and then rice + copper + gold for 13 turns. This brings us to size 4, and generates 4*6 + 13*9 = 141 hammers, enough to finish the rax (30 hammers) and produce two axes (52 each). Remainder is 7 hammers. I think it would be beneficial to produce a granary around this point. Ideally the granary finishes when the food box is half full (at 21/42). I see several alternatives:

Alternative 1: the fourth citizen works a mined grass hill for 12 turns. This produces 12*2 = 24 surplus food and 12*12 = 144 hammers, together with the 7 hammer overflow this is enough for an axe and a granary: 151 = 52 + 90 + remainder of 9 hammers.
Alternative 2: the fourth citizen works a mined grass hill for 5 turns and the farmed dyes for 3 turns. This produces 5*2 + 3*4 = 22 food, and 5*12 + 3*9 = 87 hammers, enough for a granary, with a remainder of 4 hammers.
Alternative 3: the fourth citizen works the farmed dyes for 5 turns. This produces 5*4 = 20 food and 5*9 = 45 hammers. Then we whip the granary for 1 pop, and 6 hammers remain. The next 3 turns we work rice + copper + gold, for 9 food and 27 hammers. So compared to alternative 2, we are 13 food behind and 29 hammers ahead. This is quite close to the normal whipping exchange rate of roughly 2 hammers: 1 food, so alternative 2 is better than alternative 3 because of commerce and unhappiness, and I will not consider alternative 3 in the remainder. We do not have to choose between alternatives 1 and 2 now, we can do that later based on the need for axes.

In both remaining alternatives, the next build can be a library. Work rice + copper + gold + dyes for 5 turns. This produces 5*4 = 20 food and 5*9 = 45 hammers, and in both cases gets us to size 5 with 20 food in the foodbox. Adding the 9 (alternative 1) or 4 (alternative 2) hammer overflow we have enough hammers to whip the lib for 2 pop.

Oxsmurkz: work rice + cow + gold for 5 turns, then grow to size 4, and work the lake as well, for another 4 turns. By then we have produced 9*4 = 36 surplus food for a 17/42 foodbox, and 9*6 = 54 hammers, enough to finish the rax (28 hammers needed) and about half an axe.
On the next turn, the plains mine will be finished, and we can work rice + cow + gold + plains mine for 8 turns, producing 8*2 = 16 food and 8*10 = 80 hammers. Together with the 26 hammers already invested in the first axe, this is enough to finish 2 axes, with 2 hammers remaining, on the same turn that Smurkzdon finishes its second axe.
After this, we could for example produce 2 more axes, followed by a granary that will complete at half full foodbox at size 5, or we could whip the granary for 2 pop right away.

Workers


Oxsmurkz worker: road cows (3 turns), then move to plains hill and mine (1+6 turns), possibly road (3 turns).
Smurkzdon worker: road forest SE of cows (6 turns), finish dye farm (4 turns?), mine riverside grass hill (1+6 turns).

All improvements finish (just) before they are needed. After this, both workers can improve around Smurkzdon: either cottages (on the riverside jungle grass, to save the forests for later), or pre-chop, or defensive roads, or roads to the front.

Troops

Leave one axe and two warriors at home at all times. The next two will scout around, in particular towards Alex. Attack as soon as we have a good target and can bring sufficient numbers - I'll pause or stop for input before setting up the attack.

Research
For the Smurkzdon plan we need the ability to build a granary in 17 turns from now, and the ability to build a library in 25 turns from now (in alternative 2; for alternative 1, add 4 turns to each). This (probably) works in both alternatives below:

Alternative A: Pottery -> Writing -> Math.
Alternative B: Pottery -> Myst -> Poly -> Priesthood -> Writing.


(We could also skip Pottery. This will save about three turns of research, but then granaries and cottages will not be available. I don't think this is an improvement, and if we do research Pottery then it's most efficient to do that before Writing.)


An advantage of Alternative A is that we do not make an investment yet in a possible Oracle attempt.
In Alternative A, we will still have to make a decision about the Oracle after we get Math, which will be around turn 100 at the latest. It is unlikely that an AI has built the Oracle by then, so we will be deciding based on roughly the same information as now. A disadvantage is that, by researching Maths, we have locked ourselves to a CS slingshot, discarding the cheaper Machinery slingshot.
A (small) advantage of Alternative B is that Writing costs about 30 beakers less this way.


I would choose Alternative B, because I think we have to try for the Oracle to be competitive. But we need a team decision on this, I think.

I aim to play tomorrow morning (GMT).

I vote for Alternative B / Oracle, as I agree we need to do some risky things to get competitive.

Is there any way to squeeze a settler in there anywhere? We have a nice third city spot down toward Alex.

I think that the most important objective we have ahead of us at this point is to take down Alex as soon as we are able. I don't see where a granary or library build would fit in with that. We need axes, and we need them now. How long would it take to reach, say, 6 axes with your plans?

As for research, if we believe we can get the Oracle then I think we should try for it. At what turn do we expect to get Priesthood, and where would we build the Oracle? I can play some with spread sheets later tonight.

As for research paths, a definite advantage of alternative A is that we get Maths faster for better chop yields, potentially speeding up our axe rush.

I don't think we should build more cities now. We are going to get cities from our enemies; if anything, we will have too many.

I am not keen on Machinery from Oracle for the reasons stated earlier, neither Metal Casting nor Machinery helps us much in the short term. Another idea would be to get Calendar from the Oracle in order to rapidly boost our commerce and happiness. When you look at the cost of the techs we have to research, plus building the Oracle, it doesn't seem like much of a win, though.

Oracle will generate GPP, which will pollute our pool if we want to make great scientists later.

I vote for Alternative B / Oracle, as I agree we need to do some risky things to get competitive.

Is there any way to squeeze a settler in there anywhere? We have a nice third city spot down toward Alex.

I don't think so, at least not before the axes are trained. If we try to do everything at once, then we'll get nowhere, I'm afraid.

What spot do you like, btw?

I think that the most important objective we have ahead of us at this point is to take down Alex as soon as we are able. I don't see where a granary or library build would fit in with that. We need axes, and we need them now. How long would it take to reach, say, 6 axes with your plans?

I think this depends on what Alex has. If his cities are crappy and we can settle better locations, then I wouldn't bother. I think libs are very much needed, especially in Smurkzdon.

Depending on which alternative we choose, we'll build 4, 5, 6, or 7 axes before starting on granaries. Of course we can delay granaries even further, especially in Oxsmurkz - for as long as we like, in fact. Oxsmurkz can do 1 axe per 5 turns. But if we need a lot more than 7 axes, it's probably not worth it anyway.

Raxes and six axes (three from each town) takes 22 turns from now.

As for research, if we believe we can get the Oracle then I think we should try for it. At what turn do we expect to get Priesthood, and where would we build the Oracle? I can play some with spread sheets later tonight.

Would be great if you can try some sheets. However, getting to Priesthood is not the problem. With Alternative B, we'll get there in only 18 turns. Building the Oracle is also not the problem: Smurkzdon could do it in 20 turns, without chops or whips, and even without trying very hard. It can probably be built in 10 turns (without Maths) if we seriously try.

The real problem is to get the prereq techs for something expensive and useful. We could either take Metal Casting (no prereqs beyond what we already research in Alternative B), or Machinery (Metal Casting needed) or CS (Maths and CoL needed). Of these three, MC is by far the cheapest, and CS the most expensive.

As for research paths, a definite advantage of alternative A is that we get Maths faster for better chop yields, potentially speeding up our axe rush. No, our axes should be finished by the time we get to Maths (about 30 turns). It would help with the Oracle, or with a second wave of attackers.

I am not keen on Machinery from Oracle for the reasons stated earlier, neither Metal Casting nor Machinery helps us much in the short term.

Machinery won't help short run, but it will get us to Astro faster. Hence we'll finish quicker. Or am I missing something?

I agree MC is not that great, it is not that much more expensive than Myst + Poly + Priesthood.

Oracle will generate GPP, which will pollute our pool if we want to make great scientists later.

Yes, so we cannot safely generate GS's from the Oracle city after the Oracle is built.

What spot do you like, btw?

I like the plains hill to the NW of the banana, between the two mountains. It can work the banana immediately on chopping the jungle, and will later have the cow.

That said, I can accept that I build too many settlers, and Alex's capital is probably a better city site for us :) so I'm fine with skipping the settler.

No luck with any spread sheets tonight I'm afraid.

I think 6 axes is a decent force, but no more than decent. And at AW we know the AIs build more defenders, so will 6 really be enough? But maybe you could play up to the point where we've seen Alex' lands, before deciding on that in full? How many turns to Pottery, and how much could we scout in that time?

Sorry for being completely useless right now, hope to be back (cured would be the appropriate term) in 1 or 2 days :blush:

So I'll agree with what ever you decide, as long as Alex goes down :)

If we're willing to take risks with worker defence, we could send an axe to scout Alex now - then each new axe could be mobile worker defence on the way to the front.

Machinery won't help short run, but it will get us to Astro faster. Hence we'll finish quicker. Or am I missing something?

Research has two benefits---it gets us closer to our ultimate goal (Astronomy), and/or it helps us directly before then. E.g., Civil Service doesn't get us any closer to Astronomy, but it generates extra commerce that over the course of the game probably adds up to more than the total research cost of Machinery. Plus it's also generating extra hammers, irrigating our farms, etc. And it enables macemen which would make a big difference in eventually conquering everyone.

If we do the Machinery slingshot, is there any sense in using crossbowmen offensively? I am inclined to think not, but I haven't looked at it carefully. Drill IV crossbowmen should be pretty powerful, but we need to get to 8 xp for that.

If the consensus is that we should use the Oracle somehow, then I'm fine with the plan to research Pottery-Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood and then decide.

I think 6 axes is a decent force, but no more than decent. And at AW we know the AIs build more defenders, so will 6 really be enough? But maybe you could play up to the point where we've seen Alex' lands, before deciding on that in full? Yes. How many turns to Pottery, and how much could we scout in that time?

4 turns to Pottery. I would rather not scout with the single axe we have now. But we can start scouting long before we need to decide about more axes or granaries.

I'm starting to agree with DaviddesJ. The Oracle is nice, but does it really help us in this game? Are we beaker-poor? What could we do with the hammers now (axes? infrastructure?) that will be delayed by the Oracle? Will we really have trouble reaching Astronomy by the time we need it?

I think I'd rather continue on the construction route.

I haven't played yet, as we are still discussing what to do. I'll be happy to wait until we reach a decision. But I fear that there is a risk of stalling, and I think that we just have to make a decision with incomplete information.

Constructing the Oracle (if we decide to go for it) lies far in the future - it will take around 25 turns to research Pottery, Writing, Mysticism, Poly and Priesthood, and then there are two options:

Another 20-25 turns to get MC (if we want to pop Machinery), or
Another 25-30 turns to get Math and CoL (if we want to pop CS).

(These are rough guesses of course, I don't know how our economy will develop.)
Of course there is no way to know whether this is fast enough, until we or the AI actually build the Oracle. It is clear to me that the first option is beneficial, because we gain roughly 900 beakers for 225 hammers ( (1500 - 400 [beaker cost Myst, Poly, Priesth]) / 1.2). Not sure about the second option.

Oracle can be built in the capital in about 10 turns. So it lies at least 35 turns in the future. In these 35 turns, we can build rax, 4 axes and a lib in the capital, and rax + 6 axes in Oxsmurkz (again, rough numbers).

[B]So what can we do?

Every research path that we can take seems to put Pottery and Writing as high priority. So we could postpone the decision for 11 turns by researching these first. (This is slightly less efficient than putting Priesthood before Writing, but it's only 30 beakers.)
In these 11 turns we can obtain information about Alex defenses. There's

the risky approach: send our axe scouting now, and
the safer approach: switch Smurkzdon to axe now. When it is one turn from completion (7 turns from now), send our axe scouting and switch back to rax.


EDIT: 11 turns should be enough to get a reasonable overview over Alex land and defenses, 11-7 = 4 turns is not. So only the risky approach would make sense to me.

Is there anything else we can learn?

I agree we need to move to get some more info. Pottery+Writing make sense to me, and axe scouting too. Of course the downside of scouting now is that Alex will whip defense. But that will happen soon anyway.

Question would be what do we do if we find Alex metal/horse (chariot are axes killers....) ? Try to pillage it early ?

In all case, I still think you should play at least 11 turns quickly (after we have a quorum agreement :) )

I prefer the risky approach.

Go ahead and play the 11 turns and make your best decisions. I'd rather if we went forward with you making the best choices you can based on our advice - but really, it's your turn set so if we can't come to complete consensus, you have the tie breaking vote.

An earlier library will earn back the lost 30 beakers from bypassing polytheism. It will also speed us to our first GS.

unkle points out another advantage of early scouting - we can pillage. This will deprive Alex of critical resources - and also help pay for our civic upkeep, which is currently costing 1/turn.

I too like the risky approach (do I ever? :D). And I think that going Pottery -> Writing is better than going via Priesthood. And yes, we should go ahead and move on, and like Chris says ultimately you have the tie breaking vote if we can't make up our minds.

At this point I don't think it's so much that we don't agree on what to do. It's more that there are several alternatives that all have their pros and cons, and none of us is really decided which to choose. I don't think anyone is strongly against any of the alternatives we've discussed. So in that situation it may be the best thing to play on a bunch of turns, to get to a position where we can decide better.

For me, as long as I get my axes I'm happy. ;)

Turn 71, 1870BC: set research to Pottery. Switch Smurkzdon to axe and set it to work rice + copper. This reduces our research rate of course. Road cow. Wake axe and move SE.

Turn 72, 1840BC: Axe SE, worker to gold.

Turn 73, 1810BC: worker to forest, axe SE again. The Greek city is Sparta, and has nothing to be proud of:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_6_BC1810_Sparta.jpg

Turn 74, 1780BC: worker roads forest, other worker to plains hill. Axe SE again, Sparta starts to look better:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_6_BC1780_Sparta.jpg
Also, it is suddenly better defended. EDIT: it doesn't show in the picture for some reason, but Sparta now has two archers and a warrior.

Turn 75, 1750BC: Smurkzdon has grown to size 3 and now works the gold again. Interesting, on the growth turn we received the beakers from the gold, but not the hammers - just opposite from Civ3 :crazyeye:. Start mining the plains hill, axe SE again.

Turn 76, 1720BC: Pottery -> Writing. Oxsmurkz rax -> axe. Oxsmurkz has grown, new citizen works lake. Unfortunately, maintenance has now increased to 2 gpt :(. Axe SE again - where is Alex' capital?

Turn 77, 1690BC: Barb warriors appear from the east - please stay away from us for a few more turns! Worker starts farming dyes. Axe SW, sees another blue border.

Turn 78, 1660BC: Barbs moved away fortunately. Smurkzdon switches back to rax. Its borders expanded, but we see little of interest - unless someone is interested in stone? Axe goes S and finds the town of Corinth, which has apparently been under attack:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_6_BC1660_Corinth.jpg
Nice city location - especially after a border expansion.

Turn 79, 1630BC: A barb warrior appeared again. The Greek city order is Athens, Sparta, Corinth, so I guess the capital should be somewhere near Sparta. I move SW towards the gold hill for a better look.

Turn 80, 1600BC: Axe goes SW onto the gold hill and sees expanded Greek borders. This must be Athens. Oxsmurkz switches from lake to mined plains hill. Smurkzdon worker to grass hill.

Turn 81, 1570BC: Smurkzdon worker mines, Oxsmurkz worker roads. Axe SW. Barb warrior has appeared again. I need three more turns to scout out Athens and can research Writing in 1. So I set science to 0% for two turns - we're almost out of cash anyway.

Turn 82, 1540BC: Smurkzdon rax -> axe. Axe SW.

Turn 83, 1510BC: Smurkzdon axe -> axe. Oxsmurkz axe -> axe. sci back to 100%.

Turn 84, 1480BC: Writing -> Myst. A barb and a Greek warrior appear in the east. Athens is quite a nice city - and quite impregnable, with twice expanded borders on that hill:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_6_BC1480_Athens.jpg
Oddly enough, it seems there is nothing to pillage.

Time to discuss! It seems to me that Sparta and Corinth can be taken rather easily, and may be worthwhile - although Sparta is quite short on food, needs a border expansion and might be better located 1 tile SE of where it is. But war elephants are quite nice of course.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_6_BC1480_overview.jpg

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Smurkz_SG006_BC1480_01.CivWarlordsSave)

EDIT: This seems a good point for a handoff. Roster:
DaviddesJ - UP! (Jan 2)
Niklas - On Deck! (Jan 5)
ChrisShaffer - Warming up (Jan 8)
unkle
Wotan
zyxy - just played

Ouch, That is U G L Y. But well played, very good scouting. :goodjob:

I definitely think Sparta would be better off on the Dumbos 1SE, but that would require a settler, and beggars can't be choosers. Even in the current imperfect location it would be a nice town to have, and would fit well with our maybe-strategy of beelining for Construction.

EDIT: And since you hand off one day early, those dates in the roster should be decreased by 1. ;)

I think Sparta will be OK in the current location with the banana, two river-elephants and one floodplain. We need to start thinking about how we'll get border expansions though.

Cow / wheat / iron looks to be a good spot for a future city. If we're going to build a settler, I'd definitely choose that in preference to moving Sparta one space.

Good work.

I think Sparta and Corinth are ok to keep. Sparta gives us ivory quickly, and will have good production, and might even have another resource in the tiles we haven't seen yet. And Corinth is a good spot for farming great people, plus the gold is useful. And both have lots of forests for chopping.

My first thought is to skip Oracle in favor of Mathematics-Calendar-Construction. Then use war elephants and catapults to kill everyone on our continent. (We could also reverse Calendar and Construction, if we think launching the war is a higher priority than improving our tiles.)

In this case, I would go ahead and capture Sparta quickly, and chop a library there (delay chops to finish after Mathematics, of course). Corinth too, if it's not too inconvenient or difficult (and after it grows to size 2 at least).

I think we need a 3rd worker, if we're going to grab two more cities and do quite a bit of chopping and improvements. Or we could try to capture an enemy settler moving around.

Should we build a workboat to explore? How sure are we that we will need Astronomy? Strategy would be pretty different if we don't need Astronomy.

We should at least explore the peninsula to the west. What happened to the bear?

Funny thing is that we can actually see which tiles are worked by the AI. I never realized this before... Athens must have some good tiles on the other side, because it is not working the southern clams - in fact, we can only see it work the northern clams.

I agree with keeping both towns. How many axes do we need? Half a dozen to take both towns? Perhaps even less?
It seems that Math is the logical next tech. After that is really the last moment to contemplate the Oracle. I think it would be helpful if we could send out 1 or 2 axes and 1 or 2 workboats to scout the rest of the land while researching Math.

To add even more wishes to the production queue: Smurkzdon could use a lib.

I never saw the bear again.

Most animals disappear 'poof' when barbarian warriors appear.

I think fast conquest of our home continent should be a priority. Catapults and war elephants sound great to me.

Like David I'm inclined to skip the Oracle. We would likely get more than our input back in terms of productivity if we could get CS, but we can get that increase from capturing the Greek towns instead. Hmm, should we be looking to get CoL as well, for courthouses in captured towns? But I would definitely beeline for Construction from here, then Calendar.

We should capture Sparta and Corinth as soon as possible. Attacking an unpromoted, fully fortified archer in a town with a CR2 axe has 71.3% chance to succeed. If there are three, which we should plan for, we'd better bring 5 axes, plus one for that warrior. That should be enough for one town, hopefully the stack will be healthy enough to push on to the next town but we should plan to have one or two reinforcements coming up too.

Once we have enough axes for the attack at Sparta, get a worker into the queue.

I wonder where Hannibal's scout came from. Due east?

I don't think you can see which tiles the opponents are working. The clams N of Athens are improved, so he's probably working that tile, and the clams SE don't have fishing boats yet, so he's probably not working that tile.

As I said above, I think I would put Calendar ahead of Construction, but we can decide that after Mathematics.

We don't have any CR2 axes, and we won't unless/until we kill some enemies or barbarians to get experience. Are we willing to attack 2 archers and 1 warrior with 4 CR1 axes and 1 unpromoted axe? We could do that in 10 turns, anything more will take quite a bit longer.

We are Charismatic so the 4 xp the barracks give are enough to give two promotions - presumably CR2. If we can have 5 axes down there in ten turns, it's very unlikely there will be more defenders than there are already, especially since the latest archer was added only a few turns ago. I would definitely go for it.

We are Charismatic so the 4 xp the barracks give are enough to give two promotions - presumably CR2. If we can have 5 axes down there in ten turns, it's very unlikely there will be more defenders than there are already, especially since the latest archer was added only a few turns ago. I would definitely go for it.

Barracks is 3 xp.

Attacking an unpromoted, fully fortified archer in a town with a CR2 axe has 71.3% chance to succeed. Good thought. Some barb training seems in order. EDIT: x-post.

I wonder where Hannibal's scout came from. Due east? Sorry, don't remember. I can check the autosaves, if desired.

EDIT: @Daviddesj: well, in the screenshots of Sparta and Corinth I clearly see where the citizens are...

EDIT: @Daviddesj: well, in the screenshots of Sparta and Corinth I clearly see where the citizens are...

Sorry, you're right. You can see the little huts or ships (except under the fog, of course).

Barracks is 3 xp.
No, barracks is definitely 4 xp. See for yourself (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/improvements/). Or was that changed in Warlords?

It's 3 xp in this game. I don't recall exactly which version or patch it was changed in.

I think 5 axes is not really enough, so here's what I'm inclined to do:

Smurkzdon will build axe, grow to size 4 (work mine), build another axe, then build granary. After that, probably library.

Oxsmurkz will build 2 axes, grow to size 5 (work forest), build worker. After that, probably library.

Workers will prechop forests and build roads. I will time a mine to be completed on the hill 2E of Oxsmurkz, the turn that Mathematics comes in. The other worker can prechop forests around Smurkzdon, or build a couple of roads toward Sparta. Any opinions on which is better?

Roads to victory! In my experience, roads are worth more - speedy transport of troops is the key to being able to respond to new threats and opportunities.

I can't open the save file on this computer (still visiting family in Texas). If you build three axes, how many will we have after that?

By the way, as of our latest save we are #1 in power and score. We are #2 in total number of posts, #3 in posts/turn.

We currently have 3 axes, 2 warriors, 2 workers. 2 axes with 3xp are in our home territory, 1 axe with 0 xp is near Athens. OS and SD will each produce another axe in 4 more turns.

Roads to victory! In my experience, roads are worth more - speedy transport of troops is the key to being able to respond to new threats and opportunities.

We're going to need a road network eventually. But, in the present case, one way to look at it is that we could spend the same amount of time building two or three roads, or prechopping two forests which will give us 90 hammers that will turn into another worker that will build lots of roads.

We have more forests to chop than we have workers to do it (and will have even more if we take the two Greek cities soon)---effectively, every turn of worker chopping is worth about 7.5 hammers (1/6 of 45). I'm not sure there are any road segments that I'd be willing to pay 22 hammers for, right now. Later, it will be easier (hopefully we will capture some workers, too).

I feel fairly ready to proceed with the plan above. Does anyone object if I play the next 15 turns (through Mathematics) a few hours from now?

I played 15 turns, to Mathematics. All went according to plan. Sparta had only 2 archers (I intercepted a third one nearby and killed it in the open), so I suppose 5 axemen would have been enough. Oh well. We took Sparta with no losses. A couple of axemen are close to level 3.

I pillaged Athens's copper and sheep before leaving. By now, we could probably go back and pillage them again.

Timbuktu is not far, but it is on a hill. I didn't seriously consider attacking Skirmishers on a hill, even though there were only 2 when I sighted it.

We have to decide on Sailing-Calendar or Masonry-Construction next. Granary in Smurkzdon and worker in Oxsmurkx will finish next turn, both with significant overflow (to library?).

There is some land to the east that's reachable if we put a cultural bridge city on the peninsula. Could be another continent, could be just a 1-square island. Also land northeast of Oxsmurkz, but it may be hard to reach given where our cities are (barring a culture bomb in Oxsmurkz).

We should seriously consider a coastal city 6S 1W of Smurkzdon, which could work fish, cows, 2 gold.

1030 BC save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Smurkz_SG006_BC1030_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 84: set research to Mathematics

Turn 87: pillage Athens copper

Turn 88: Churchill's Axeman defeats Alexander's Warrior
Turn 88: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 89: pillage Athens sheep

Turn 90: Churchill's Axeman defeats Barbarian's Warrior

Turn 91: Churchill's Axeman defeats Hannibal's Scout

Turn 93: Timbuktu has 2 skirmishers
Turn 93: Athens has 5 archers, 3 workers, workboat

Turn 95: Sparta has 2 archers

Turn 98: Churchill's Axeman defeats Alexander's Archer
Turn 98: barbarian warrior 4e1n of Sparta
Turn 98: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 99: Clearing a Forest has created 44 hammers for Smurkzdon.
Turn 99: Clearing a Forest has created 44 hammers for Oxsmurkz.
Turn 99: Churchill's Axeman defeats Alexander's Archer
Turn 99: Churchill's Axeman defeats Alexander's Archer
Turn 99: You have captured Sparta!!!

Well played! Nicely timed granary.


We have to decide on Sailing-Calendar or Masonry-Construction next. Granary in Smurkzdon and worker in Oxsmurkx will finish next turn, both with significant overflow (to library?).

We don't seem to have happiness problems for a while (Smurkzdon can grow to 8 with ivory). So I would prefer the Construction route over the Calendar route. With both Timbuktu and Athens heavily fortified, 'phants and cats are much needed now.

I would go for lib in Smurkzdon and settler in Oxsmurkz. Do we need more axes for Corinth? Probably not, we have 7. After taking Corinth, we can send some to scout, and some to pillage the AI's.

There is some land to the east that's reachable if we put a cultural bridge city on the peninsula. Could be another continent, could be just a 1-square island. Also land northeast of Oxsmurkz, but it may be hard to reach given where our cities are (barring a culture bomb in Oxsmurkz). I assume you are mixing up east and west, but I still don't see land. Or can this only be seen when we actually have a unit there?

We should seriously consider a coastal city 6S 1W of Smurkzdon, which could work fish, cows, 2 gold. Indeed, very sweet spot. It has at least 2 forests inside its borders, so lib (for culture expansion) can be had reasonably fast.

Tactical note: If I read the log correctly, then there should be a barb warrior slightly east of our axe 3E of Sparta. So we can move our axe to the hill, and hopefully get a free XP.

Woot, our first conquest! :goodjob:

We should be able to take Corinth easily with the axes we have. I would even be tempted to press on with the 4 healthy axes and the CR2 axe at 3.5, hoping to find Sparta also defended by only two archers.

Regarding Construction vs Calendar, I'm torn. Like zyxy says we don't have any happiness issues, so the only purpose of going for Calendar first is for the tile improvements themselves. The spices are 3f 3c with plantation, +1c compared to our dyes farm (that we're not working atm). The dyes are 2f 6c with plantation, a very nice commerce tile. I guess the question is, how fast would we start building dumbos and cats if we went for Construction first, and how early would we be able to make use of those improved tiles? Intuitively, choosing Calendar first means choosing a long-term research benefit (more commerce, potentially larger towns) over a short-term military benefit. The military benefit could allow us to take more towns earlier, taking out our own continent faster, but the research might get us faster to Astronomy. I think we should make a comparison of worker actions in the two cases (I'll start on one later). Masonry + Construction is 25 turns at current speed, Sailing + Calendar is 26 turns. A library in Smurkzdon would speed that up, as will growing. At size 6 we would make 23 cpt raw, would that mean 28 or 29 bpt (i.e. floor or round to nearest)? Without doing the actual numbers, it seems to me we should be able to get the research time down to ~20 turns for either.

The location 6W of Smurkzdon is also a very nice city location after border expansion and some (tricky) improvements, having spices, bananas, cows and fish for lots of food (GP farm?). But if we want a cultural bridge we would be settling on top of the spices, a much worse location losing all four resources. I would say settle the better location and go for 150 culture if we want that bridge. I may be wrong, but isn't there also land to the SW of that peninsula? (zyxy, there's no land visible, only coast on the other side of ocean.) If there is, a town settled in the good location would give us a bridge to both (if they are separate) with two border expansions. Then again, Astronomy may be faster than getting 150 culture...

In any case I definitely agree about the cow-fish-2xgold location. I think zyxy's idea for a settler in Oxmurkz is good, it has little growth potential anyway. It would take 8 turns to complete after the worker (46 overflow, 14 hpt). Maybe follow it up with yet another settler, to have one south and one west? 20 turns altogether for worker + 2 settlers, that's roughly the same as the research time to Calendar or Construction. A town in the west more or less requires Calendar though.

Current Roster and Schedule:
Niklas - UP! (Jan 1)
ChrisShaffer - On Deck! (Jan 4)
unkle - Warming up (Jan 7)
Wotan (Jan 10)
zyxy (Jan 13)
DaviddesJ (Jan 16)

Got it! (assuming that was a handoff, if not then David is still up)

We should be able to take Corinth easily with the axes we have. I would even be tempted to press on with the 4 healthy axes and the CR2 axe at 3.5, hoping to find Sparta also defended by only two archers.

Agreed - let's press on with the attack. We got good luck with no losses in Sparta - take advantage of that.

Regarding Construction vs Calendar, I'm torn.

Three points in favor of construction: 1) eliminating Alex is the only effective way to reduce war weariness against him; 2) eliminating Alex will eliminate 'we love the motherland' problems; and 3) most importantly, we want Athens, which is a great city site!

The location 6W of Smurkzdon is also a very nice city location after border expansion and some (tricky) improvements

It is nice and we should get it in the long run. However, I think Athens is better.

I would say settle the better location and go for 150 culture if we want that bridge. I may be wrong, but isn't there also land to the SW of that peninsula?

I don't see land to the SW. I think we should forget about culture bridges that we don't even know if we'll need. We either need to workboat scout to determine if astronomy is required, or simply get astronomy. Building culture bridges to (potentially) nowhere won't help. So when we settle, definitely choose the better location.

In any case I definitely agree about the cow-fish-2xgold location. I think zyxy's idea for a settler in Oxmurkz is good

Agreed.

I'm looking at workers, and it seems to me that most of our immediate needs are already handled for Smurkzdon and Oxmurkz. Is there anything that speaks against moving both workers down to Sparta for chopping and camping?

Agreed regarding Athens, that one heck of a city site. So like Chris I'm thus (again) leaning towards Construction next.

Woot, our first conquest! :goodjob:

We should be able to take Corinth easily with the axes we have. I would even be tempted to press on with the 4 healthy axes and the CR2 axe at 3.5, hoping to find Sparta also defended by only two archers. Yes, good idea.

The location 6W of Smurkzdon is also a very nice city location after border expansion and some (tricky) improvements, having spices, bananas, cows and fish for lots of food (GP farm?). Except that 6W is water :lol:. But I suppose you mean 5W. Indeed, if we ever want to switch to Caste System to whip out a few scientists, then this is the place to do it. Food surplus is 12, if I counted right.

(zyxy, there's no land visible, only coast on the other side of ocean.) Sorry, I still don't see it. All the tiles that are not next to our continent have just one food, so that must be ocean :confused:.

In any case I definitely agree about the cow-fish-2xgold location. I think zyxy's idea for a settler in Oxmurkz is good, it has little growth potential anyway. It would take 8 turns to complete after the worker (46 overflow, 14 hpt). Maybe follow it up with yet another settler, to have one south and one west? 20 turns altogether for worker + 2 settlers, that's roughly the same as the research time to Calendar or Construction. A town in the west more or less requires Calendar though. I would probably go settler - worker (- axe?) in Oxsmurkz, and chop another forest for the settler - I think Wotan already prechopped one. Then we'll have 1 worker for each new town, and one for general road building and the occasional improvement or chop around Oxsmurkz and Smurkzdon.

Except that 6W is water :lol:. But I suppose you mean 5W.
Nope, count again. :p

Sorry, I still don't see it. All the tiles that are not next to our continent have just one food, so that must be ocean :confused:.
The tiles we can fully see are ocean, yes. But there's a trace of brighter water sticking out of the fog, here:

http://xs322.xs.to/xs322/07520/coast.png

I would probably go settler - worker (- axe?) in Oxsmurkz, and chop another forest for the settler - I think Wotan already prechopped one. Then we'll have 1 worker for each new town, and one for general road building and the occasional improvement or chop around Oxsmurkz and Smurkzdon.
Hmm, Oxmurkz is at its health limit. There are three forests within its FC but only two of them are within cultural borders, does that matter?

zyxy, DaviddesJ :goodjob: I am back and glad to see we are moving in the right direction, with great decisions and some luck :)

6W of Smurkzdon is a nice city site, but a tricky one to get fully. Requires Calendar+Trireme+expansion. So it won't be that quick to develop it. Best potential GPfarm is probably Athens anyway, but it is true that seafood are costly to defend....

Chopping in Oxmurkz I would delay, to keep health there. But if we want it, there is one forest who is in our 2 FC, so I would chop the forest 2S of Ox, and if needed the one NW of Smurkzdon (checkerboard pattern for regrowth, just in case. We might get lucky this time).

Athens is so yummy that I wish we already had cats... But wouldn't it be good if we send 1-2 axes there, even delaying the attack on Corinth, just to keep the copper unmined ? I am worried the we start to see Axes/Phalanx there as defenders... Axes would be even tougher, of course, but Phalanxes have a +25% on hills. Corith will not get connected to Athens any time soon, so less risk there. One option is to move towards Corinth, and if defended on the light side, take it, if not switch to Athens pillage (staying 2E3N of Athens and getting 1N from time to time, to check).

Sending our eastern Axe 1E could open some more tiles from the FOW.

Nice to have Smurkzdon, Sparta and Corinth connected without roads. Did not saw that before. That make them great cities for us, without too much work.
But as Chris mentionned, getting some roads towards Athens would speed up the attack when we are ready.

I think getting Construction is our best shot, then Calendar. Oracle we can skip. Less rewards with it than getting if needed CS the hard way. I would also delay workboat scouting for now. We have plenty in our hands already, and we are far from getting Astro anyway (even far from starting thinking of it). AI scouts fairly aggressively (in BtS at least) with its own workboats usually, so we have some hints I think. Plus not getting AI at wa with us is good.

Athens is so yummy that I wish we already had cats... But wouldn't it be good if we send 1-2 axes there, even delaying the attack on Corinth, just to keep the copper unmined ? I am worried the we start to see Axes/Phalanx there as defenders... Axes would be even tougher, of course, but Phalanxes have a +25% on hills. Corith will not get connected to Athens any time soon, so less risk there. One option is to move towards Corinth, and if defended on the light side, take it, if not switch to Athens pillage (staying 2E3N of Athens and getting 1N from time to time, to check).
Moving all the troops to Corinth first would only delay the pillaging of the copper by one turn (assuming no abyssmal RNG in the attack).
But I didn't understand that last sentence in the brackets at all. :confused: :crazyeye:

Staying inside cultural borders have an effect on military maintenance. I did not check whether we are hitting any target there, so that may be overkill. Idea is before we think we can get Athens, getting 1 Axe (or all) just outside Athens, checking from time to time if copper is being worked can be a good idea. Stationnary axe inside Athens cultural border is costing us money.

Am I making sense ?

I'm done, Niklas is next.

Regarding the coastal connections, look at tile 9W 3N of Smurkzdon. This is an ocean tile but it has food on it, that means it's within range to be worked by some land that we can't see. There will be coast adjacent to it, either north or west.

Same for the tile 6W 6N of Smurkzdon.

You can see the difference if you look 9W 1S of Smurkzdon, this ocean tile doesn't have food symbol on it, it is not near any land.

I think it is efficient to send a worker (with escort of course) to the fish+cow+2 gold site ahead of the settler, for a pre-chop. The sooner we get a lib there, the better. We'll get it with 2 chops and 15 turns of production at 3 hpt. In between the chops the worker can improve the nearest gold. After the lib is done, the worker can chop a workboat just outside the culture border, and finish it when the border expands.

Nope, count again. :p :blush:

Hmm, Oxmurkz is at its health limit. There are three forests within its FC but only two of them are within cultural borders, does that matter? Good catch! I don't know if it matters.


Regarding the coastal connections, look at tile 9W 3N of Smurkzdon. This is an ocean tile but it has food on it, that means it's within range to be worked by some land that we can't see. There will be coast adjacent to it, either north or west.

Same for the tile 6W 6N of Smurkzdon.

You can see the difference if you look 9W 1S of Smurkzdon, this ocean tile doesn't have food symbol on it, it is not near any land.

Interesting. Apparently diagonal connections don't count. Too bad we cannot easily use these cultural bridges :(. Settling on the spice doesn't look very attractive.

Interesting. Apparently diagonal connections don't count.

It's really due to the shape of the fat cross. A water tile is coast if it's adjacent (orthogonally or diagonally) to any land tile. Otherwise, it's fertile ocean (with food production) if it's in the fat cross of any land tile (so that it could theoretically be worked by a city there---although this applies even if the only such land tile is impassable). Otherwise, it's barren ocean.

The ocean tiles that are fertile in this way are exactly those that are orthogonally adjacent to a coast tile.

Good catch! I don't know if it matters.

Health effects of forests and jungles don't depend on cultural borders. We can chop one more forest near Oxsmurkz without health penalty. This should be the one that is 2S of Oxsmurkz; it is already 2/6 chopped.

We should also finish chopping the forest road tile NW of Smurkzdon, which is 3/6 chopped. This will accelerate the library in Smurkzdon.

I prebuilt 1/3 of a road on the hill 2E of Oxsmurkz. It probably isn't worth finishing now, though.

I would build a cottage SW of Smurkzdon. Next turn, when the granary is done, work the dye farm instead of the mine. When we grow to size 5, we can work the cottage, and then when we reach size 6 start working the mine again.

There's no big hurry to prechop forests for the fish/cow/gold town. At 3 hammers/turn, it will take 16 turns to build a library there even with 88 hammers from chopping, and chopping won't take that long. Higher priority (I think) is to start mining the 1st gold the turn we found the town, maybe even with 2 workers.

Sparta needs one or two forest chops, and an elephant camp. Corinth is also going to need a cow pasture asap, and something (probably cottages) on the flood plains not long after that. We have a lot for our workers to do. It sure would be nice to capture a few from Greece.

Going back to pillage the copper and sit nearby to keep Alexander pinned down is probably a good idea. We don't particularly want to let him build axes. Although sitting nearby may encourage him to build more archers. I wonder if we can hope for him to build the Pyramids instead? :D

I think we should aim to finish all nonmilitary production from our rax towns Smurkzdon and Oxsmurkz by the time we get Construction. The town 6W of Smurkzdon will be useful even before Calendar: its main problem is low production and food before it gets a culture expansion. We could get the lib out by working the spice forest for 17 turns, then spice forest + citizen spec for 4 turns, then chop the forest on this turn and whip the lib for 1 pop.

Furthermore, the town will need a workboat and galley from somewhere else for the fish and cow. Or it could whip the galley itself.

If we do this, then the production orders for Smurkzdon and Oxsmurkz would include: lib in Smurkzdon, 2 settlers, 1 or 2 workers, workboat, galley (if not from the new town, and after Sailing, of course), and possibly some extra defenders. We cannot expect our other towns to contribute much yet. So is this possible? The boat(s) will have to come from Oxsmurkz, and Smurkzdon needs to grow. But perhaps it could chop a worker, if health allows.


There's no big hurry to prechop forests for the fish/cow/gold town. At 3 hammers/turn, it will take 16 turns to build a library there even with 88 hammers from chopping, and chopping won't take that long. Higher priority (I think) is to start mining the 1st gold the turn we found the town, maybe even with 2 workers. The idea of the pre-chop is to be able to do this with 1 worker: prechop (1 turn), gold mine (7 turns?), chop (6 turns). Of course, if we have two workers to spare, then that would be a good option too.

The town 6W of Smurkzdon w