1. I think there's no point in researching Archery until we're actually planning to build archers. Even if we had Archery now, none of our cities would be ready to build archers now. So why research it now?

Building "inexpensive units" is actually very costly, because they will cost us maintenance every turn until the end of the game, unless we disband them. So I would definitely like to minimize that. But I can't deny that we could use a few garrison units.

If we connect our horses (near Corinth), we can build chariots for the same price as archers, and they are generally better for garrisons (can be repositioned quickly, can be used for scouting, can come out to attack and prevent pillaging, rather than cowering in cities). So I would put off Archery for now, and hope to put it off indefinitely, but reserve the option to switch to it at any time.

Note that Archery will only delay Astronomy by 1 or 2 turns, but in the short term it will delay Calendar by 3 turns or so, so that is a more significant cost.

2. We really don't want to build warriors now in Camsmurkz, that will delay when we can work the gold hills and cut into our long-term research.

3. Whipping in Smurkzdon is a terrible idea, I'm glad that seems to have been quickly shot down.

4. The advantage of keeping the Oxsmurkz worker in the north is (1) chopping the Smurkzdon hill gets us an extra half an elephant quickly, accelerating our attack on Athens, (2) then it helps us build the farm for Camsmurkz by the time we need it, (3) after that, we're soon going to need it for improving the spices and dyes and bananas in the north, so if we send all of our workers to the south, they are just going to have to turn around and come back.

If some snafu comes up, we aren't that far away, we can always stop chopping/mining, and retarget.

5. Thanks to everyone who pointed out that we already connected cows. :blush:

This would give the first GS from Corinth on turn 165 and the second on turn 191 from Sparta. Is this a good order?

I think we don't have to decide this yet, if we decide we want them in the other order we can easily delay the lead city by a turn. The thing for now is to keep both cities on the fast track. It's very possible that I have a mistake in my planning (or someone will make a mistake in execution) and we won't end up on exactly this schedule.

My guess is we really won't get Astronomy before turn 200, the maintenance costs of our big army and captured cities will start eating up our commerce gains. But it's not costing us much, for now, to stay on an aggressive schedule.

The first GS in Corinth may be right, because it's actually easier for Sparta to grow even with two specialists, once we put down a banana plantation.

I would train a catapult before WE in Smurkzdon. Consider the combat odds we'll be facing in Athens - we need a few sacrificial cats.

I'd rather have another elephant, which will probably win, even against a full-strength archer.

Even if we can reach one neighbor without Astronomy, we probably can't know that we can reach them all until after we are committed. Also, it may simply be faster to build galleons than to create cultural bridges where we need them. I think we have a good plan to get Astronomy fast, we should stick with it for now.

If our enemies all show up with galleys in the next 20 or 30 turns, we can always reconsider!

OK, I'll give up on the whip in Smurkzdon - I probably use it too liberally in my solo games.

Upon consideration, I agree that chariots are better than archers, and don't require a new technology.

I'll keep the Oxsmurkz worker in the north and chop/mine Smurkzdon then help with Camsmurkz farm.

Are there any other changes to the plan that need to be decided before I play tonight?

Crosspost with DaviddesJ - agree - at this point we are committed to astronomy. If we were going the galleon route, we should have scouted with workboats long ago. That chance is past.

OK, I'll give up on the whip in Smurkzdon - I probably use it too liberally in my solo games.

There's nothing wrong with whipping, when you have lots of food. This is an unusual game, for me, in that we haven't done any whipping. Perhaps we needn't even have switched to Slavery early. But we don't have much food (even many of our "food" resources are cows, which are hammer intensive), plus we have high population limits (most of us don't usually play at Prince, right?), plus we are on a heavily forested map (so chopping gets us our early hammers).

Smurkzdon is going to be able to grow quite a bit more than it already has (we can connect spices, dyes, bananas, and sheep, all in the relatively near future), and it's not going to grow very fast, so I don't think we want to whip it down.

Upon consideration, I agree that chariots are better than archers, and don't require a new technology.

Unfortunately, in the current plan, it's going to be 35-40 turns before connecting the horses. Maybe we'll be able to speed that a bit, somehow.

Are there any other changes to the plan that need to be decided before I play tonight?

I'm pretty comfortable with it. Do we want to move the axe away from Athens? In an ideal world, we could let him rebuild the copper mine and sheep pasture, and then come back and put units on them so he can't use the tiles but they are still ready for us after we take the city. Might be tricky/impractical to get the timing right.

I guess an even more clever plan would be to try to get Alexander to almost-build an improvement, and then scare his workers away so we can finish it with just a small amount of work. We can use the shift-click trick with our workers to discover how much work is remaining for his improvements, even within his territory. You just have to be very careful or you can accidentally move a worker. :blush:

I'd rather have another elephant, which will probably win, even against a full-strength archer.

C1 Elephant vs CG1 archer in a hill city has 67% win chance, and there are two such archers, so we can expect to lose one elephant against those two. Sacrificing a cat (with 25%-30% survival chance) would improve those odds. I don't know if the improvement is enough to justify it.

Anyway, good luck Chris!

I think the biggest problem with building a catapult in the north is the time it would take to get to Athens. I'd rather build a second catapult in the south, or (my first choice) take our chances with the elephants. We're going to have to play fast and loose to have any shot at a medal.

I think the biggest problem with building a catapult in the north is the time it would take to get to Athens.

Hmm? It doesn't take any longer than the elephants. So, if we're just using it for collateral damage, it's just a tradeoff as to whether we would rather have the elephant or rather have the catapult.

We could potentially chop a 2nd catapult in Sparta around turn 135, which would get it to Athens less than 30 turns from now. So that could be a reasonable alternative.

Or chop a catapult in Corinth on turn 144, timing the chop in advance to complete just after border expansion. But that's getting a bit late.

We should try to scout Hannibal's territory in the next few turns. We always could think of attacking Carthage before Athens, if it's relatively close and not on a hill. But we need to know in 10 turns, so we can send the catapult from Corinth in the right direction.

My hunch is the map designer put all of our opponents' capitals on hills.

We could also try to attack Hannibal's small city NE of Corinth, mainly as a way of getting some extra XP (and gold for razing it?).

In fact, due to the AW setup, not making contact with the western neighbour is fine to me :)

Chris, I think there is no disagreement on the plan (for now :D ).

In fact, due to the AW setup, not making contact with the western neighbour is fine to me :)

Does it matter whether we make contact, or not? I guess we give them a slight discount on research, for techs we already have (or vice versa, but I think we're going to be the tech leader from now on).

Basically, if they do not contact us, they can fight between them... They do not gain diplo bonus from fighting us together. So if there is another continent AND we do not show up, they can fight. If we show up early, they are less prone to. At least that was my thought....

And do we gain any WW already or do we need to fight ?

You only get WW for actual fighting.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

did not know we have a 50% discount due to being AW :) Sounds nice ;)

Seems like we would not gain WW from being only in contact though...

P.S. List of sources of WW is here: War Weariness Mechanics (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=181512)

See also post #4 in this thread :-)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6247464&postcount=4

Amusingly, we have 2 cows - the one in Oxsmurkz is connected by road and the one in Corinth is connected by river.

But what if they get pillaged? We need an extra backup cow!!

got milk ?

I'll be playing in approx 2 - 3 hours.

Playing now. Not sure why I always think war elephants have two movement points.

You don't have to remember this. You can find out by: select a worker, hold down shift key, right-click on the tile, then hover over the "chop" icon. Then click on the "cancel" icon before releasing the shift key.

I discovered that you can do this with a worker that has already moved on the turn, significantly reducing the potential for error.

I discovered that you can do this with a worker that has already moved on the turn, significantly reducing the potential for error.

Yes, just remember to subtract 1 from the turns needed for the improvement (this is sort of silly).

Turn 117 - 760 BC
Reassign Sparta population to work grass forest instead of elephant camp.
Reassign Corinth population to work partially farmed floodplain instead of unfarmed floodplain.
* probably won't matter, but might remind us which space to farm later.
Sparta worker to 1E.
Smurkzdon worker S on road.
Switch research to 0%. Will earn 26 gold, funding further research for 2 (!) turns.
Move axes per zyzx plan. Send northern axe to explore. Send Sparta axe to south in vain hopes of luring out Alexander's workers.
Notice Mansa still doesn't have a -1 You declared war on our friend! penalty.

IBT
Chopping a forest has created 44h for Sparta.

Turn 118 - 730 BC
Switch research to 100%. We have 35 gold and are spending 17 per turn. Not good.
Oxsmurkz completes worker, begins war elephant.
Northern axe finds horse/cow/spice site.
Eastern axe discovers mined copper in Hannibal's territory. No road, but coastal. Does Hannibal have sailing? Inquiring minds want to know. Let's go pillage, shall we?
Oxsmurkz worker to 1N Smurkzdon.
Corinth workers begin chopping.
Sparta workers to 1N.
Smurkzdon worker continues to Sparta.

IBT
Barbarian warrior appears near NE axe.

Turn 119 - 715 BC
NE axe kills barbarian warrior (99% odds) and discovers Mansa settler party (settler/warrior/skirmisher).
* Axe gains 8/8 experience, is at 4/5 health on plains. Unlikely Mansa will attack.
Other axes continue zyzx plan.
Sparta workers begin chop 1N. Smurkzdon worker joins them.
Oxsmurkz worker begins chop 1N Smurkzdon.
Gold at 18, losing 16 gold/turn, research remains at 100%.
* Unit cost is now 1. City maintenance inexplicably reduced. Take what we can get.

IBT
Mansa settler party moves NW into the big, bad jungle.
Barbarian warrior appears in north.

Turn 120 - 700 BC
Northern axe moves toward barbarian.
Smurkzdon worker 3 begins chop.
Hannibal axe discovers Carthage and oh, so many pillaging sites. Happy.
* Hannibal axe finds pastured horses with road - not so happy.
Gold at 2. Switch research to 0%. Will earn 26 gold. Not happy.
Axe near settler party continues NE, leaving the settler to enjoy the swamp.

IBT
Mansa founds Kumbi Saleh in jungle.
Clearing a forest has generated 44h in Sparta.
Completed library in Sparta, began granary.
Camsmurkz grows to size 2.
Barbarian warrior disappeared.

Turn 121 - 685 BC
Camsmurkz working cow/iron. Iron mine is complete.
Sparta workers learn to farm.
28 gold. Resarch at 100%. Losing 16 gold/turn. But wait for the copper mine pillage.
Mansa axe continues exploring, finds a hill to pillage.
Hannibal axe plunders a copper mine for 7 gold. Less than hoped, but it will help.
Northern axe finds barbarian warrior headed to Oxsmurkz/Smurkzdon. In three turns it will threaten the Smurkzdon worker. Fortunately, that's the turn the first war elephant will be ready.
Camsmurkz worker moves to build road. Reducing maintenance costs must be a priority.

IBT
Clearing a forest has generated 44h for Corinth.
Completed granary in Corinth, begin catapult.
Enemy (barbarian warrior) spotted near Smurkzdon.

Turn 122 - 670 BC
Northern axe continues exploring, war elephant will easily handle barbarian warrior.
Camsmurkz worker 1NE to build road.
Hannibal axe moves to pillage horses. Carthage is Hindu holy city.
Corinth worker 1N to chop.
Research still 100%. Gold 19. Losing 16 gold/turn.
Realize I probably sent Sparta axe too far SW and begin returning to Sparta.

IBT
Sailing discovered, begin research on Calendar.
Judaism founded in a distant land.
Barbarian moves due W, giving Smurkzdon worker 1 turn respite. Now threatens Oxsmurkz grassland hill mine.

Turn 123 - 655 BC
Mansa axe pillages mine, earning 7 gold.
Hannibal worker pillages pasture, earning 6 gold.
Research at 100%. Gold 16. Losing 16 gold/turn. We can't keep up this rate of pillaging.
Camsmurkz worker begins road 1NE.
Corinth worker begins chop 1N.
Sparta worker 1NW to chop.
Sparta population reassigned to work grass farm.

IBT
Hannibal axe destroyed by Carthaginian chariot. Whoops.
Clearing a forest has generated 44h for Smurkzdon.
Trained war elephant in Smurkzdon. Began war elephant.
Smurkzdon will grow to size 7 next turn.
Trained war elephant in Oxsmurkz. Began war elephant.
Sparta will grow to size 2 next turn.
Mansa adopts organized religion and converts to Judaism.

Turn 124 - 640 BC
Smurkzdon worker begins mine 1N.
Timbuktu well defended.
Sparta worker begins chop.
Two Sparta workers move to 1E.
Oxsmurkz elephant to barbarian warrior.
Smurkzdon elephant south.
0 gold. Losing 16 gold/turn. Research to 0%. Will earn 27 gold.

IBT
Smurkzdon has grown to size 7.
Sparta has grown to size 2.
Corinth will grow to size 3 next turn.
Barbarian warrior suicidally attacks Oxsmurkz elephant. Elephant gains 1xp.
Barbarian warrior appears near Mansa axe.

Turn 125 - 625 BC
Promote Mansa axe to CR3 to heal to 4.5/5. Attack barbarian axe to gain xp and easily defeat it. Discover Djenne, Jewish holy city. Axe gains 1xp but injured to 2.7/5.
Oxsmurkz elephant back on road.
Smurkzdon elephant south. A road would be nice.
Sparta workers chop.
New Smurkzdon and Sparta populations work forests.
Gold 27. Research 100%. Losing 16/turn.

IBT
Another barbarian warrior north of Oxsmurkz.
Corinth has grown to size 3.
Camsmurkz road complete.

Turn 126 - 610 BC
Oxsmurkz elephant north to confront barbarian.
Sparta axe discovers mined copper and fortified archer.
Smurkzdon elephant continues south.
Mansa axe fortifies to heal
Camsmurkz worker to build farm 2N/1E.

IBT
Barbarian axe moves toward Oxsmurkz.
Two Hannibal chariots appear near Corinth.

Turn 127 - 595 BC
Assign new Corinth population to floodplain.

Sorry guys, I appear to have sent the axes too far.

Timbuktu defence

http://gesserit.net/smurkz/timbuktu.png

Chariots of doom

http://gesserit.net/smurkz/chariots.png

It's good you have a thick skin. Not much good to say about this.

Losing an axe to Hannibal's chariot might have been unnecessary, but pillaging the copper and horses had some value, so I can see the reasons for that (even though the threat is also pretty obvious). But we already know that Mansa has skirmishers in his capital, what do we possibly gain by sending one of our few axes to see if they are still there? Curiosity isn't a good reason. And once you know that Hannibal has built chariots, and already killed one of your axes, isn't it pretty obvious that one axe isn't much of a defense for Corinth? You could easily have redeployed the axe that's doing nothing in the desert.

I don't know what to do now. If we finish chopping the catapult, do we get the unit in Corinth before Hannibal attacks?

P.S. I've screwed up GOTMs by exploring too much, I do have some sympathy. But part of the idea of group play is to let the wisdom of the group help us avoid stupid mistakes.

In vanilla, we could have chopped for a spear and then poprushed it this turn, but it doesn't work in warlords.

What we can do is poprush the catapult we're building, and then also chop the forest. That will give us enough overflow hammers to build a spear next turn, if we still hold the city.

If we get the catapult before Hannibal's turn, then I think we may survive (although obviously this is a big setback). He probably won't attack vs axe and catapult, he will probably pillage our cows with one chariot and capture the worker with the other. Then we have the chance to attack the weaker chariot with our axe, and we'll have a spear the following turn to at least hold the city.

I'm not sure how far this will set back our science plans. Several turns at least.

If we don't get the catapult until the beginning of our next turn, we're probably just finished, he will just attack and take the city. If that's the situation perhaps we should just run away and not even try to defend the city. Or move the worker somewhere as bait, and hope he captures it rather than attacking immediately. If the AI is following the same rules as us, he can't see what's in our city at the moment.

Eastern axe discovers mined copper in Hannibal's territory. No road, but coastal. Does Hannibal have sailing? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think Sailing is irrelevant here, I think coastal resources don't connect to your network unless they are on a road or river.

Research at 100%. Gold 16. Losing 16 gold/turn. We can't keep up this rate of pillaging.

You seem to have emphasizing pillaging as a source of income, but it's really almost irrelevant. All that matters now is how long it takes us to accumulate the 4000+ beakers to get to Optics. Getting 7 more or less is a drop in the bucket.

It's definitely not worth risking our units to generate pillaging income, much less our cities. Losing Corinth will cost us something like 1000 beakers over the next 80 turns, if we're gaining 7 then even a 1% risk is a net loss (ok, I know it's a bit late to be pointing this out).

Promote Mansa axe to CR3 to heal to 4.5/5. Attack barbarian axe to gain xp and easily defeat it.

This barbarian "axe" is a warrior, right? I assume you aren't killing axes so easily (and I wouldn't expect to see any yet).

Smurkzdon elephant continues south.

Why aren't you following the road through Camsmurkz? This would save a turn in reaching Athens (although not Corinth).

Barbarian axe moves toward Oxsmurkz.

Again, this "axe" is really a warrior, right?

Depending on how desperate we are, we could take one of the workers 1E of Sparta, and send it into the forest 2SE, in order to distract Hannibal's chariots.

I don't think we are actually this desperate, but I thought I would mention it, so that we can consider all options.

Hi guys, reporting in. My wife pulled me off on a surprise trip and I had to promise not to bring my computer. I am now back an set to play when the roster hits my slot again. Will use evening to read up on what you have been up to. Sorry about the silence but I guess wife takes precedence over games. ;)

I see that zyxy proposed roughly the very aggressive plan that Chris followed, in #463, and I failed to study or comment on it since I was focusing on the production issues. So we are really all to blame for this debacle, I as much as anyone. :blush:

It still would have been prudent to do something defensive when it became clear that Hannibal had built chariots that could easily threaten Corinth, i.e., after losing the first axe.

Tough situation... I think that units which are poprushed are available in defense right now (even if they do not show up), do not know about chop rushing though.

I could set up an experiment in WB tonight (~10 hours) that would make that a sure thing (testing whip and chop).

On aggressiveness, we all made a point that we would play risly style. No surprises, it has some risks.

Tough situation... I think that units which are poprushed are available in defense right now (even if they do not show up), do not know about chop rushing though.

I think it would have to be the same, either way it happens at the same time.

I could try to do some analysis of how much we are set back if we poprush now. But I'm not sure it's worth doing, because there are too many variables (do we lose a worker? what tiles get pillaged?), and I don't really see any other option.

I could try to do some analysis of how much we are set back if we poprush now. But I'm not sure it's worth doing, because there are too many variables (do we lose a worker? what tiles get pillaged?), and I don't really see any other option.

I don't see another one either. Would be more interesting to know how much does it cost us to get one spear in Sparta. Have to go to work, will follow the discussion later on. Poprushing +chop or poprushing only ?

I don't see another one either. Would be more interesting to know how much does it cost us to get one spear in Sparta. Have to go to work, will follow the discussion later on. Poprushing +chop or poprushing only?

We don't have to decide, until next turn, whether to put the overflow into the library or a spear. By then, we'll have a much better idea what we're faced with. If we manage to counterattack and destroy both of the chariots, or if he throws the chariots at our city and loses, then we can perhaps go ahead and start the library. But if things go badly, we might really need the option for the spear.

The only alternative to the chop is to run away with our worker. I'm not sure there's any advantage in that. If Hannibal captures our worker, that is good for us---we should be able to counterattack with our axe next turn, destroying the chariot and recapturing the worker (chariots only get offensive bonus against axes, not defensive). So we really don't lose anything by finishing the chop, I think. It just gives us options, and perhaps lures Hannibal into doing something that's good for us.

It's true that if we put the chop into a spear, it's going to take us much longer to build the library. Especially if the cows are pillaged also. :mad:

Wait, I realize there is another option. Suppose we switch production to spear, chop the forest for 44 hammers, and work cows, plains/forest, plains/hill/forest. That's another 9 hammers, which is enough to finish the spear this turn, despite no poprush. Then we have a spear next turn, for guaranteed chariot destruction and/or city defense.

We can then choose whether to finish the catapult, or build the library first. Or we can still poprush the catapult next turn, if think we really need it.

I am starting to like this plan better. I'll feel much better about defeating the chariots, if we have a spear. Maybe Hannibal will even run away from us, rather than mess with the spear. I don't know how much the AI is programmed for mounted units to fear spear units.

Why aren't you following the road through Camsmurkz? This would save a turn in reaching Athens (although not Corinth).

Actually, I can answer my own question this time. Our plan has us building a road next turn, SE of Sparta, so the elephants will get +1 movement from that, which is the same +1 movement they would have gotten from going through Camsmurkz. So Chris did exactly the right thing, I stand corrected.

I think Smurkzdon should be working the 2f1h forest, rather than the 1f2h forest. It's true we become unhealthy at size 8, but, we can poprush for 1 pop, converting 26 food (cost of growing to size 8) into 45 hammers (what we get for the poprush). Given this exchange ratio, the grassland forest is clearly better than the plains forest.

@DaviddesJ
I'd love to wait for some WB testing to be sure we get the spear through chops... But that would be much better (costing us a worker though, evven if we should get it back in some turns by gaining sone of Hanni/Alex cities).

I'd love to wait for some WB testing to be sure we get the spear through chops... But that would be much better (costing us a worker though, evven if we should get it back in some turns by gaining sone of Hanni/Alex cities).

In Warlords, workers have no movement when captured, so, if Hannibal does capture our worker, we will probably be able to recapture it immediately.

Can the AI destroy (as we can with our own troops) workers ? I am almost sure it happened to me. Or is it that in BtS workers do have movements when captured (which I suspect very much to be the case) ?

Can the AI destroy (as we can with our own troops) workers?

You mean, can the AI disband workers after capturing them? Sure, I think it can. I don't think it does, though.

I have played even less of BTS than Warlords, but I'm pretty sure they are the same, captured workers have no movement. This was instituted to make worker stealing less profitable. Feel free to test it, though.

Anyway, if the worst that happens to us is that we lose a worker, I'm feeling pretty good!

Agreed on the fact that loosing one worker is ok-ish :D (and yes I meant disband rather than destroy).

So maybe my recollection of rules is still Vanilla... Which is what I played most, even if I tend to find BtS more fun right now. Never was in Warlords too much.

This barbarian "axe" is a warrior, right? I assume you aren't killing axes so easily (and I wouldn't expect to see any yet).

Yes, both barbarians were really warriors.

Why aren't you following the road through Camsmurkz? This would save a turn in reaching Athens (although not Corinth).

Poor play on my part (no shortage of that this turnset). I didn't calculate the effect of the Camsmurkz road on southern movement.

Thanks for the kind words everyone. I still feel pretty bad about this and will be quite impressed and appreciative if you all manage to devise a plan to rescue the situation.

Started a worldbuilder file for testing. I don't know enough about editing things like production in a city, or unit health, to finish it. Hope it helps.

http://gesserit.net/smurkz/WB.CivWarlordsSave

@Chris:
I know exactly how you feel (which is not by itself enough to make you feel better) since my last turnset had its share of bad execution.... I agree with DaviddesJ that our move plan was probably too bold, but we knew that we were on a thin line between aggressive playing and "too much risk taken" playing.

Thanks for the WB save, as mentionned I cannot really work it until my night (~7 hours from now), but I'll try to manage something if we still need it at that time.

Hey Chris, you're really going for the least lucky player award, aren't you? First the rice, now this!

I haven't opened the save yet, but this looks like mostly bad luck to me. A few chariots popping up could have happened to any of us, and I am quite surprised it didn't happen sooner. Perhaps we should take this as a sign to invest a bit more in defense, as our whole land is currently undefended against any but the feeblest attack.

Now I am off to play with the worldbuilder.

@Chris:
Is this a hand-off ? Since you played ~10 turns, I suspect so.

@Wotan:
your turn is coming :D

Will come back in the next hours after some work and then some play with WB.

Yes, this is a handoff.

Thanks for the kind words zyxy, but I'm reasonably sure DaviddesJ is right - I should have moved the axe east of Sparta/Corinth over to help with defence after the chariot killed the exploring axe.

Thanks for the kind words zyxy, but I'm reasonably sure DaviddesJ is right - I should have moved the axe east of Sparta/Corinth over to help with defence after the chariot killed the exploring axe.

Another tactic is to prebuild a few hammers on a spearman, so it can be rushed if/when the chariots show up. We could easily have spared that.

I think we're actually extremely fortunate. Some sort of attack from Hannibal was inevitable, just as we had an attack by Alexander a few turns ago. (Let's try not to get surprised by Mansa, next!) Here, the chariots showed up the very turn we're finishing the chop, and we have just enough hammers to build a spear. A turn earlier or later and it would be much worse. He also could easily have appeared with more units (there might still be some archers coming, behind the chariots).

It's not so much that we didn't build enough units for defense, the problem is more that they aren't defending. We could have 5 axes defending Sparta and Corinth, instead of 2. Losing one axe trying to disconnect Carthage's horses and copper is understandable (if risky), and we need one near Athens, but the rest should all be closer to home.

We probably should have built one spear instead of one of the axes, and we should have given at least one of our axes combat/cover rather than CR1/CR2 (although that wouldn't have mattered in this particular situation). Those were probably mistakes on my watch.

I, for one, am more used to vanilla than warlords, where the axes are more secure.

The strategy for this turn seems very clear to me (build a spear in Corinth with the chop and reassigning tiles), and we can't plan further until we see what Hannibal does, so I'm hoping the next player can take one turn soon and then we can think about further plans.

I have played a bit with the worldbuilder. I cannot reproduce the situation exactly, and there may be dice rolls involved, but perhaps these results hold some truth:

If we chop a spear, then one chariot will raze the pasture and the other will capture the worker. The worker will be disbanded. (We could move the axe to the hill, but it has only a 10% defense chance.)

Before:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57158/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_before_1.PNG
After:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57158/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_after_1.PNG


If we let the worker run away and whip a cat, then one chariot will raze the pasture and the other will attack the catapult. Our winning odds are 75%.


Before:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57158/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_before_2.PNG
After:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57158/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_after_2.PNG


I had some nice pics to illustrate but somehow I cannot get them uploaded. EDIT: got it to work again.

It seems that the spear keeps the town safer but loses the worker for sure.

If we chop a spear, then one chariot will raze the pasture and the other will capture the worker. The worker will be disbanded. (We could move the axe to the hill, but it has only a 10% defense chance.)

If we let the worker run away and whip a cat, then one chariot will raze the pasture and the other will attack the catapult. Our winning odds are 75%.

Hmm, there are more options than I thought. What if we chop the spear, and put the axeman on the other hill? Any chance the chariot will go after the axe instead of the worker?

Chris, I agree with David that the axe should have moved east. That doesn't make you a bad player in any way. All in all you did a good job, though with an error that could have pretty bad consequences. But I'm sure we'll do the best of it. :thumbsup:

I haven't been well these past two days, still aren't. And to top it all my gaming computer is having fits, probably the graphics card. I can't run civ reliably for more than a half minute or so, after that the whole computer hangs up. Thus I'm a bit out of the loop in more ways than one currently. I hope I'll feel better tomorrow, to give some useful comments on our situation.

At any rate, Wotan, you're up! :whipped: :D

Hannibal's 2nd chariot in the actual game is more wounded than the one in your test game (3.1/4 vs 3.4/4). I don't know if that matters to what the AI does.

Could not fiddle has hoped with the WB :(

Only thing which seems pretty "sure" is that Hanni would not attack against 2 defenders (either Cat or Axe).

On loosing an axe rather than a worker (if doable), are we sure of this ? This is a CR3 axe.

Other comments if we start to plan the next turn (and only next turn):
* Do we move SE axe in Athens ? I hate the copper which is mined and connected there... but it will be tough to catch if the archer protects it.
* Do we prebuild 1 turn a Spear/Cat in Camsmurkz ? Or 2 turns an axe ? We cannot do that in Sparta right now (unless we delay chopping 1 turn, which could be a good idea since Mansa is close). Elephant is on its way though.
* what move for our axes in Mansa territory ? Northern shoud come back towards Sparta, but the wounded one will take looong to heal in Mansa's territory. Getting neutral would make hime heal twice as fast.

Probably we don't want to lose the axe instead of the worker, even if we could. I was just speculating.

We should consider chopping a spear or catapult this turn in Sparta, instead of the granary. I don't think a prebuild is so useful, we aren't going to rush here, and we're unlikely to be seriously threatened (since we have the elephant near, and more on the way). But getting another unit now might be useful. We're clearly going to have to delay our Astronomy plan by several turns, which means it's not a huge problem if Sparta grows more slowly.

The advantage of the axes in Mansa's territory is that they do keep him distracted and his workers pinned down. (E.g., there are two in Djenne, that aren't going anywhere just because our axe is near.) But I agree that healing in enemy territory is awfully slow.

Wotan is the one we have heard the least from, it's supposed to be his turn, right?

Yes Wotan is next. Would be good to get some words from him (last message he was back and catching up... :mischief: :mischief: :D). Been there, done that ?

Seriously, would be good to have a target from him on when he can play next turn OR swap, since I'd like at least next turn played tomorrow, because we'll need to adapt to the AI move (and as mentionned no need in planning further than that).

Only thing which seems pretty "sure" is that Hanni would not attack against 2 defenders (either Cat or Axe).

This is exactly the opposite of what zyxy said. He said, if we build a catapult, then one chariot will pillage the cows, and the other chariot will attack our city, defended by catapult and axe. 25% chance to kill the catapult.

Note that the axe in Mansa's territory is fortified, so won't pop up when cycling through units.

This is exactly the opposite of what zyxy said. He said, if we build a catapult, then one chariot will pillage the cows, and the other chariot will attack our city, defended by catapult and axe. 25% chance to kill the catapult.

I saw that, that's weird. I'll retry the catapult then.

I think I'd rather risk a 25% chance to lose the catapult than a 100% chance to lose the worker.

In Athens, the axe can pillage the road on the sheep to disconnect the copper.

Hannibal's 2nd chariot in the actual game is more wounded than the one in your test game (3.1/4 vs 3.4/4). I don't know if that matters to what the AI does.

Can someone check this?

How do you edit unit strengths in the world builder?

Hannibal's 2nd chariot in the actual game is more wounded than the one in your test game (3.1/4 vs 3.4/4). I don't know if that matters to what the AI does.

I don't know either, and I don't know a good way to reduce health, except by attacking them.

I tried again where the health of the C1 chariot was reduced to 3, and it still attacked in any scenario I can think of. I've attached the save in case others want to try.

EDIT: The problem with losing the catapult is that it would almost certainly lose the town too, on the turn after.
Problem with the spear scenario is that we cannot attack the chariots next turn without risking Corinth, because the chariots will be on two different tiles. Unless we whip the catapult on the next turn.

I think I'd rather risk a 25% chance to lose the catapult than a 100% chance to lose the worker.

If we lose the catapult, there's a risk to lose the city. We only have one axe, then, to defend against two chariots. The outcome depends how injured his chariot is, and other factors.

In Athens, the axe can pillage the road on the sheep to disconnect the copper.

I haven't been paying attention here, how did he manage to mine and connect the copper, with our axe there? I thought the whole idea was to prevent that.

Pillaging the sheep road doesn't disconnect the copper. Besides, we need to pillage the copper mine to reduce his production.

Move axes per zyzx plan. Send northern axe to explore. Send Sparta axe to south in vain hopes of luring out Alexander's workers.

Sparta axe discovers mined copper and fortified archer.

Do these comments about "Sparta axe" refer to the axeman near Athens? Why is it called "Sparta axe"?

We discussed the possibility of encouraging Alexander to rebuild his improvements, but I thought this was way in the future, when we have plenty of units to retake control of the area.

Ok I retried a quickly built setup in WB, far less convincing (again) than what Chris had come up with, but once again no attack on the catapult. Maybe the fact that the Chariots are not wounded change something, or the fact that is still 4000BC...

Nice thing with getting a Catapult is that it cannot, even if it wins a fight, move away from the city tile....

EDIT: The problem with losing the catapult is that it would almost certainly lose the town too, on the turn after.

I think that's too pessimistic. Suppose his chariot wins, but it's injured, say it's down to 30 hp (1.2 strength). Then he has two wounded chariots, in the cow tile. We can attack and kill the stronger chariot, with our axe. Then the question is (1) is our wounded axe strong enough to hold off his wounded chariot, and (2) does the wounded chariot attack?

I'm now inclined to risk the catapult. Maybe he won't attack. Maybe we'll win. Even if we lose, maybe our axe will do well. It seems to offer the best overall hope of a satisfactory outcome. If we lose the worker, plus we lose the cows, plus we have a bunch of hammers in a spearman which makes it harder to build a library, the development of Corinth is going to be set back a lot. Rushing a catapult is, I think, less costly. I'll try to do a comparison of the two, as far as development goes.

Here are Corinth build plans assuming (1) catapult rush, or (2) spearman chop. Plan 1 assumes we send one worker from Sparta, Plan 2 requires that we send two workers from Sparta. Both plans assume we kill the chariots quickly and no further enemy interference (which is optimistic, especially in the case where we only build a catapult).

Not surprisingly, Plan 1 is a better trajectory. We can basically achieve the same GPP pace as before, with a modest penalty in food, hammers, and commerce. The cost is primarily the worker turns.

Plan 2 is not terrible. We end up 4 turns behind our previous GPP pace (but I think we'll probably still get the two GS before we get Optics, so not a big deal). We pay a further penalty in terms of population, because we have to rush the library for 2 pop, and we also fall further behind in commerce. And, of course, we have to take 2 workers away from Sparta, slowing its development further.

I think we could go either way. The catapult build is usually better, but occasionally a disaster. The spearman build is safer but usually worse.

If we lost Corinth altogether, we could run two scientists in Smurkzdon. It wouldn't be great, but it's not the end of the world.

Plan 1: Corinth catapult build
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31371/corinth_cat.JPG

Plan 2: Corinth spearman build
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31371/corinth_spear.JPG

Here's a revised version of Plan 2, where we chop a spearman this turn and then rush the catapult next turn. This costs us nothing, compared to the previous version. In fact, it's even a little better, because our city is smaller and grows more quickly. So I recommend it, if we are willing to sacrifice the worker.

Plan 2 revised: Corinth spearman/catapult build
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31371/corinth_both.JPG

We're getting close to 24 hours. If Wotan doesn't post a confirmation in the next few hours, then I suggest we skip and he can play when he's caught up.

Hi guys, I am back and willing to play question is if I am fully up to date yet. You are all proliferous posters! ;) So I will probably need another evering just to catch up and then allow me time to post ideas for the turn set and get feedbakc prior to actually playing. So the process will probably be a bit slow and I guess I would be able to finally play either tomorrow evening or friday eveing.

An option would be to swap and allow me time to digets everything and take a turn set during the weekend. Might be the best option?

So consider this a conditional "GOT IT"

OTOH, not having read through the back log but I have read the most recent plan submitted by DaviddesJ. If everyone is OK with that I think I can play my turn set now.

Wotan, I think it's definitely not enough to just read the plan and follow it, you need to study the position very carefully, since we are at a very treacherous position. Even once we agree on a plan, following it in the next few turns is going to be very tricky.

I'm not eager to skip anyone, but you have to really dig into the position and understand everything that is going on, or I do think it would be best to swap until you're caught up. There's nothing wrong with swapping.

I do think that the only two reasonable options for Corinth are my Plan 1 and Plan 2. I would like to hear some opinion from everyone. I am happy to go either way. Plan 2 will cost us a few turns relative to Plan 1, but it's much safer. The biggest cost is losing the worker.

Here's what Sparta looks like if we follow Plan 2 in Corinth (i.e., Sparta loses 2 of its 3 workers). It loses a few turns, but it's still in decent shape. The cascade effect of Plan 2 on Camsmurkz and Smurkzdon might actually be greater, we are left with just 2 workers in the north to deal with 2 gold mines, roads, spice and sugar and banana plantations. (In Plan 1, or even more so if Hannibal had never pillaged our cows, we would use the Sparta workers to build gold mines for Camsmurkz, leaving the northern workers to be dedicated to plantations.) Still, this whole unfortunate episode will cost us only a few turns.

Sparta 1-worker plan
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31371/sparta_1worker.JPG

If it were up to me, I'd probably settle for Plan 2, and be safe. But if we lose a medal by a few turns, that will be the reason why.

Do these comments about "Sparta axe" refer to the axeman near Athens? Why is it called "Sparta axe"?

We discussed the possibility of encouraging Alexander to rebuild his improvements, but I thought this was way in the future, when we have plenty of units to retake control of the area.

I think I meant to say "Greek axe."

Yeah, another bad play by me - I ducked too far away from the city.

I'm fine with either plan 1 (risky, could lose the game, more rewards) or plan 2 (safer, lose some turns).

Yeah, another bad play by me - I ducked too far away from the city.

It might not be terrible. I would consider implementing the plan of placing the axe on the copper but not pillaging it. We cut off his resources and get to use the mine quickly, if we ever take the city.

Main disadvantages of this are (1) he might attack us, (2) we can't see if he's sending troops north out of Athens.

I think the best option is to swap Wotan and zyxy, to give Wotan plenty of time to catch up. He'll have a turnset during the weekend like he himself suggested.

Current Roster and Schedule:
zyxy - UP! (Jan 12)
Wotan - On Deck! (Jan 15)
DaviddesJ - Warming up (Jan 18)
Niklas (Jan 21)
unkle (Jan 24)
ChrisShaffer (Jan 27)

Now I'll go look at those plans.

It might not be terrible. I would consider implementing the plan of placing the axe on the copper but not pillaging it. We cut off his resources and get to use the mine quickly, if we ever take the city.
Do we actually cut off the resource this way? Intuitively we should of course, and we will definitely block him from working the tile, but will he lose the strategic resource access as well? In Civ3 he wouldn't, which is where my doubts come from. If yes, I like this plan, he will lose the copper while we will have the tile improved right from the start.

For Corinth, I think we should go for Plan 1. I think we need to continue taking risks, and in particular I think the delay in getting the Calendar resources improved in our core is not worth it. The slow-down of the GS or the loss of 50 commerce in Sparta are less important, but also weigh in.

However, if we think that that spear will be useful for a long time, e.g. pillaging Hannibal's resources, then I might change my mind. Doesn't seem to me like that would necessarily be the case though - how long until we could have an Elephant down by Hannibal/Corinth? I can't run the game right now, so I can't check.

Speaking of which, I'd appreciate if our turnplayers could provide screenshots of important locations, until I've gotten my vid card issues sorted out.

On David's plans, I am up for plan 2. Main reason being that the spear will release our axe from Garrison duty, which will be of great help. Other option is, since we get some research delay anyway, to research Archery and go plan 1. Main reason being that archers are currently our best garrison (cheap), and I fear we will be under attack from Mansa too in few turns. Facing the 3 opponents will be very tough for us (getting alex's copper out of the way might release som pressure).

On the ressource cutting I do not know, and cannot test right now. If it does (which it should) then fine with me. Only fear is that Alex might have time to build axe since copper was mined.... Otherwise, archers vs axe on the attack should not be a big deal (would be costly for him...).

Absolutely fine with a swap. I think it is for the best. Gives me time to participate in the planning and execution of the next turn set and play the following set. Thanks for swapping me and Zyxy

Problem with the spear scenario is that we cannot attack the chariots next turn without risking Corinth, because the chariots will be on two different tiles. Unless we whip the catapult on the next turn.

Even if we didn't have a catapult coming, this still isn't a big problem. After the spearman build, we can attack the wounded chariot with the axeman (5 vs 3.1). Assuming we win that, then we can attack the unwounded chariot with the spearman (8 vs 4). Doesn't matter if we leave Corinth empty, because we've killed all of the enemies in this case.

But, as I posted above, I think it's a good idea to whip the catapult in any case. (Since we only have 2 good tiles to work, we don't mind going down to size 2.)

As I said above, I am fine with either Plan 1 or Plan 2. Going to be up to zyxy (with input from everyone) as to how much risk to take.

I'm fine with either, but if pressed would prefer plan 1.

First a quick note that a swap doesn't work for me, unfortunately. I'm going on a business trip early tomorrow morning, and return Friday evening (GMT). (I could play quickly this evening, but that doesn't sound good.) Perhaps Daviddesj could play?

I haven't looked at the plans in detail, but I'm leaning towards plan 2, revised version. I hate to lose a worker, but I feel we need a spear for defense - more than one, in fact.

I'll try to upload a few images soon.

It would be good to think about the different scenarios in Plan 1.

What if Hannibal doesn't attack Corinth, but razes the cows and has two chariots (one wounded) in the cow space? (We have the option to attack the unwounded chariot with our catapult, which puts us in much the same position as if he attacked us. Or we can attack the unwounded chariot with the axe, if we're more willing to risk that.)

What if Hannibal razes the cows with the unwounded chariot, and rests the unwounded chariot? (We can attack the chariot with axe, and, if we win, protect it with the catapult, since he can't get around us to the city.)

What if Hannibal puts the two chariots in two different spaces adjacent to Corinth? (We can still attack unwounded chariot with axe, and, assuming that wins, attack the wounded chariot with catapult.)

None of these scenarios seems unmanageable. So that's good.

Unfortunately, this is a lousy time for me to play, also. We're right in the middle of moving house. I could also try to squeeze something in, but it doesn't sound a good idea for the same reasons as zyxy.

I don't think we need more than one spear for defense, just because we have the elephants coming and they are mega-powerful against chariots. But I do agree it's good to have one, this is one of the significant benefits of Plan 2. Basically, I think the hit to our city growth in Plan 2 is compensated by the extra unit. What isn't compensated is the loss of the worker, this is a straight tradeoff between taking more risk (Plan 1) or sacrificing one worker (Plan 2).

Since Hannibal is a bigger threat, we might consider taking him out before Alex. Even if we just send our first elephant in his direction, we can use it to keep him pinned down while hopefully razing his strategic resources.

Our capital region:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_Smurkzdon.jpg

The south:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_Corinth.jpg

Mansa:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_Mansa.jpg

Carthage:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_Carthage.jpg

Athens:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_Athens.jpg

Heh, and with my own graphics problems that puts us all the way back to unkle in the list, who went just before Chris. I think it is better then to simply wait, either allowing Wotan to catch up firmly or to allow zyxy or David to get into a position to play. If anyone is of a strongly differing opinion, speak up!

Thanks for the screenies zyxy. :)

I don't mind going for Plan 2 either, but if it was up to me alone I'd go for 1.

I would like to see us claim Athens as soon as possible, so it can be of a decent size and with the proper improvements when we want to start building Galleons. I think we can hold out against Hannibal while waiting for Athens to fall.

I would like to see us claim Athens as soon as possible, so it can be of a decent size and with the proper improvements when we want to start building Galleons. I think we can hold out against Hannibal while waiting for Athens to fall.

Carthage seems about as good. It's not on a hill so easier to capture. Distance from Smurkzdon is the same (15). It is also on an ocean, for building galleons.

One advantage of Athens is that Greece doesn't have any other cities (we think), so when we capture it the population will immediately assimilate. Happiness in Carthage will be more of an issue, until we take Hannibal's other cities.

But an advantage of targeting Carthage is that we can scoop up those other cities, if we want them.

I agree we can do either, just putting the idea out there.

Another advantage of Athens is its proximity to our mysterious neighbor in the fog, whose culture we've seen already.

I think we're going to conquer everyone. We have no particular reason to believe that east is better than west, or vice versa. West might be slightly better because most of our unit production will be on the west coast, thus we can ship units faster from there. But we'll probably want to go both ways at once.

Does the AI ignore the fog of war?

I played a bit more with the WB and discovered the following. I placed a worker 3N of Corinth. Hannibal cannot see this worker:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_cheat_before.jpg

Yet, on the next turn, one of his chariots captures and destroys this worker, and the other pillages the cow. (According to the animations and the log, it happens in this order. But that doesn't matter, he cannot see the worker from the cow either.)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0595_cheat_after.jpg

Without the extra worker, the two chariots behave as before: pillage cow, and attack Corinth. So the first move of the chariot is different!

Question is: can we abuse this somehow? Unfortunately, placing the worker 1 tile further does not trigger a chariot move in that direction.

I don't really see how we can do much except by sacrificing a different worker. I would also be skeptical in that some of the effects of "what the AI knows" may be influenced by how the game is created in worldbuilder (e.g., it wouldn't surprise me if what the AI "knows" is different if you put a unit down in the worldbuilder than if it just moved there in the normal way).

Since Hannibal is a bigger threat, we might consider taking him out before Alex. Even if we just send our first elephant in his direction, we can use it to keep him pinned down while hopefully razing his strategic resources.

I like this idea.

It would solve most of our medium term defense problems (unfortunately not the one at hand).

We can keep an axe near Athens as early warning (pillage the copper, place axe on gold). Also 1-2 axes near Mansa as early warning. In fact, we probably need to check the horse tile mostly, and make sure there are no other horses of course.

Axe + elephant is very strong on defense against any attacker, so this combo could be sent safely to Carthage (the city) with a catapult to bombard. Carthage should fall quite easily to our elephants, we get some promotions to make them stronger for Athens, and will probably gain some workers as well.

Carthage is a nice city. Size 6, it probably has some food somewhere. And let's not forget that we'll gain a cow! :D

Carthage is on the top five cities list. Based on Hannibal's culture chart it probably contains Stonehenge and it is definitely the Hindu holy city.

Well, putting it that way... ;)

Alright, let's head for Carthage first. After all, Alex is already beaten, it is only a matter of how long he remains. In that regard, like zyxy says it would certainly solve our defense problems if we go for Hannibal first. That's the reason I'm changing my mind.

I am fine with waiting, sounds meaningless for my to play this turnset almost after my other one.
Let's probably wait for Wotan then, but it would be good to get a possible time for him to play.

I agree Alex is almost dead, so we may delay a little conquest of Athens IF we provide ways to get an early warning. We could also be worried about a galley party from there, even if the AI is usually terrible at this. Could we spare a cheap troop in Camsmurkz to replace our scouting axe ? In all case we want Alex to be cut of copper, which I would do SW-NW probably.

I agree with DaviddesJ on not trying too much with the WB, since I had different results from zyxy on AI reaction. Plus are we sure we are not facing aggressive AI, or any weird setup from Gyathaar ? I am still up for plan 2 (spear then catapult at a cost of one worker) but will follow the team decision on this. Main reason being that loosing the town will be a big issue, while loosing a worker will be recovered as soon as we fight Hannibal or Alex, razing/capturing some towns. Plus the extra troop would get us faster on track of conquest, meaning gaining gold and allow research.

Alright, let's head for Carthage first. After all, Alex is already beaten, it is only a matter of how long he remains. In that regard, like zyxy says it would certainly solve our defense problems if we go for Hannibal first. That's the reason I'm changing my mind.

Let's not forget Mansa. We still have defense issues in the North.

Submission page is online again. We're still listed as #1 in score. That may not last - take a look at what Murky Waters just did.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

Their power drops at about the same time as their score slices up - they probably took an AI capital in about 1500 BC.

Are we still alive and kicking ?
Wotan, I think you are up. When do you think you'll propose a plan ?

I'm back and could play tomorrow or the day after if Wotan is unavailable.

Post and plan and go for it zyxy. We haven't heard from Wotan since Wednesday morning when he said "thanks for swapping."

I agree, go ahead.

I will have forum access, but no ability to run the game until Wednesday probably.

That's great, go ahead and play zyxy. No real need for a plan before the one fateful turn... (other than 1 or 2, but I think we're decided on 2 right?)

Yes, I believe we support plan 2, following DaviddesJ's outline in post 572

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6343661&postcount=572

If the consensus is plan 2, I think we're good to go.

The biggest problem with plan 1 is if Hannibal for some reason doesn't follow the script, and attacks with both chariots rather than pillaging. Then we could very easily lose the city.

Turn 127, 595BC: I'm following Daviddesj's plan for Sparta (post 575) and revised plan 2 for Corinth (post 572). WE kills a barb warrior. Switch Corinth to spear. sci 0%. Smurkzdon switches from plains forest to lake.

Turn 128, 580BC: we lose the worker and the pasture at Corinth, as planned :(. Smurkzdon WE -> WE. Corinth spear -> cat. We succesfully kill the intruding chariots (90% and 99% odds).
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0580.jpg
Rush catapult in Corinth for 1 pop. Cannot work the forest at Sparta anymore because it was chopped. So I'll work the riverside grass instead. sci back to 100%.

Turn 129, 565BC: Sparta expands culture and granary -> cat. I don't remember if we decided on anything for Sparta, but a catapult seems the most useful thing. Corinth cat -> lib.
Switch from lake to new mine at Smurkzdon. Pillage copper at Athens (7 gold) and rice farm (4 gold) at Timbuktu.

Turn 130, 550BC: Hannibal has adopted HR. Hinduism is present in Hadrumetum, so it will expand. sci 0%. Smurkzdon worker moves to spice tile.

Turn 131, 535BC: Oxsmurkz WE -> WE. Destroy farm (8 gold) at Timbuktu. Send WE-cat-axe expedition to Hannibal. sci back to 100%.

Turn 132, 520BC: pillage gold mine at Athens (11 gold).

Turn 133, 505BC: Camsmurkz lib -> granary. A barb warrior appears from the north. I send the Oxsmurkz warrior to defend, will send a WE as backup next turn. Hannibal expedition advances on Carthage, pillage a cottage at Timbuktu for a measly 2 gold.

Turn 134, 490BC: Smurkzdon WE -> WE. Alex sends a settler expedition east:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0490.jpg
We could send some WE's to intercept. In the interest of slowing down the settler, I send our axe east as indicated. sci to 0%.

Turn 135, 475BC: our warrior defeats the barb warrior. Alex settler moves to the gold tile. In response I send our axe north (I think that's where he wants to go). Hadrumetum is defended by two archers and has expanded culture (perhaps already a few turns ago). Hannibal has horses hooked up again. Plunder hamlet at Timbuktu for 15 gold. sci back to 100%.

Turn 136, 460BC: Plunder a cottage at Timbuktu for 16 gold. Catapult party is in position, Carthage is defended by 3 archers, not too bad.

Turn 137, 445BC: whip the lib in Corinth for 2 pop. Hm, that is not entirely according to Daviddesj's plan, it seems, but we can probably still salvage it. EDIT: I think the plan did not count the cost of the catapult. Hadrumetum now has three archer defenders. I start bombarding Carthage, and decide to attack Alex's settler-archer-archer-triple, with adequate result:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0445.jpg
We get a Great General in Smurkzdon! I hope escort archers do not attack, otherwise our axe is toast. I left movement on a few units that we could use to intercept the remaining archer - I hope it doesn't turn back.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0445_GG.jpg
sci to 90% for Calendar in 1. Smurkzdon will grow next turn, our worker is ready to improve the spices.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Smurkz_SG006_BC0445_01.CivWarlordsSave).

Roster:
Wotan - UP! (Jan 15)
DaviddesJ - On deck! (Jan 18)
Niklas - Warming up (Jan 21)
unkle (Jan 24)
ChrisShaffer (Jan 27)
zyxy - just played (Jan 30)

Thanks for pulling my bacon out of the fire. While losing a worker is pretty bad, it's great that you (and DaviddesJ) were able to save Corinth!

Nice to see that Alex doesn't have axe or spear in his capital.

We now confirm that Djenne is the Jewish holy city and Carthage is the Hindu holy city.

Carthage is now the #1 city -- good choice to take it first. Unfortunately, we now know that Stonehenge is not in Carthage, as it is in the #2 city. The Carthaginian cultural expansion must have been due to the Hindu holy city.

Looks like Mansa doesn't have any strategic resources.

Shouldn't Sparta be running scientists already?

Yeah, seems like something wrong with my Plan 2 (revised) spreadsheet as far as the cost of the catapult. Rush for 2 pop is not great, it would have been better to wait until we could rush for 1 pop. Probably will delay our GS by another few turns. On the other hand it seems like other things are going well.

I question the attack on Alex's archer stack. Aside from the risk of losing, why not let it get farther away from his territory so that we can be sure to wipe out the defenders and capture the much-needed worker? Now, if he doesn't attack us he can just retreat his settler to safety.

Best use for GG might actually be to assemble a stack of elephants and give them all a few XP each? E.g., we could get 4 elephants from level 1 (3 xp) to level 3 (8 xp). Or we can create military instructor in Smurkzdon, which will build a dozen or more elephants over the next 60 turns, and get +2 xp each. Building a military academy will get us a few more elephants, that is probably least attractive.

Can we get the GG to Carthage to promote our stack of elephants in time to aid the attack (without delaying it)?

If Wotan is not ready, the soonest I could play is Tuesday.

Carthage is now the #1 city -- good choice to take it first. Unfortunately, we now know that Stonehenge is not in Carthage, as it is in the #2 city.

Who cares? Stonehenge doesn't do anything for us. It generates GPP but not of a useful flavor.

Shouldn't Sparta be running scientists already?

Not really, it doesn't do much good for Sparta to get ahead of Corinth. Both were delayed by the worker loss, also.

I can't really tell whether the 2 GS will be the limiting factor on reaching Astronomy. That may be overly optimistic, but I think we could have a whole lot of research coming after we defeat our foes on this continent. And that really won't take that long.

Another strategy we can consider is researching COL just so we can switch to Caste System and run more scientists. Basically the plan would be to generate 3 GS, instead of 2, to make up for the research cost of COL. The time to do this switch would be immediately after Calendar, so if we are going to consider this, now is the time.

I think this only makes sense if we have at least one city that can run 4 specialists. I don't think I've seen a complete screenshot of Carthage so I don't know if that is possible there. Athens could do it but I don't know if it would be in time.

Yeah, seems like something wrong with my Plan 2 (revised) spreadsheet as far as the cost of the catapult. Rush for 2 pop is not great, it would have been better to wait until we could rush for 1 pop. Probably will delay our GS by another few turns. On the other hand it seems like other things are going well. Delaying the lib would certainly have delayed the scientists. And the 4-th citizen had to work a bad tile. As it is, we can grow back to size 3 in 4 turns, and then to size 4 in another 4 or so.

I question the attack on Alex's archer stack. Aside from the risk of losing, why not let it get farther away from his territory so that we can be sure to wipe out the defenders and capture the much-needed worker? Now, if he doesn't attack us he can just retreat his settler to safety. We don't know where he will settle, it could be as close as the iron-wheat site, so I wanted to grab the opportunity. I was hoping our axe would have more health left, then promote it next turn and attack the other archer at a convenient moment. I don't know what the AI will do in this case: press on, retreat, stay put, send reinforcements, attack our axe?

Best use for GG might actually be to assemble a stack of elephants and give them all a few XP each? E.g., we could get 4 elephants from level 1 (3 xp) to level 3 (8 xp). Or we can create military instructor in Smurkzdon, which will build a dozen or more elephants over the next 60 turns, and get +2 xp each. Building a military academy will get us a few more elephants, that is probably least attractive. Academy is not possible.

If Wotan is not ready, the soonest I could play is Tuesday. That's too long a gap, IMO. Niklas, is your computer patched up again?

Who cares? Stonehenge doesn't do anything for us. It generates GPP but not of a useful flavor.

It would help captured cities grow to the BFC faster.

No, because we'll have Calendar, obsoleting the Stonehenge anyway.

Well played zyxy! :goodjob:

Wotan, go go go! :D

Current Roster and Schedule:
Wotan - UP! (Jan 15)
DaviddesJ - On Deck! (Jan 18)
Niklas - Warming up (Jan 21)
unkle (Jan 24)
ChrisShaffer (Jan 27)
zyxy (Jan 30)


EDIT: Just noted zyxy's question - no, I haven't been able to fix up yet.

Delaying the lib would certainly have delayed the scientists. And the 4-th citizen had to work a bad tile. As it is, we can grow back to size 3 in 4 turns, and then to size 4 in another 4 or so.

I'm not sure that delaying the library would have delayed scientists much, the limiting factor on running scientists is population, not whether we have the library or not. Working a "bad tile" could be grasslands, the extra citizen isn't getting us anything but it's not costing either. But I'm not sure and I can't do a side-by-side analysis right now. It's probably not a big difference.

We don't know where he will settle, it could be as close as the iron-wheat site, so I wanted to grab the opportunity. I was hoping our axe would have more health left, then promote it next turn and attack the other archer at a convenient moment. I don't know what the AI will do in this case: press on, retreat, stay put, send reinforcements, attack our axe?

I predict he will retreat. But I don't really know.

Academy is not possible.

OK, right. I wasn't excited about that, anyway.

Now that I think about it, there's some chance I could play on Monday.

OK, checking in. GOT IT! Will look at the save later today and post comments.

OK, checking in. GOT IT! Will look at the save later today and post comments.

Great. Timing will then be good for me to play on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Can someone please post some situation screenshots?

Carthage
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/carthage.png

Hadrumetum
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/hadrumetum.png

Kumbe Saleh
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/ks.png

Timbuktu
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/timbuktu.png

Athens
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/athens.png

North
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/north.png

Central
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/central.png

Corinth
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/corinth.png

Sparta
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/sparta.png

Domestic Advisor
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/445bc/domestic.png

Here's a new plan for Corinth. We lose a few turns compared to revised plan 2 posted by Daviddesj (post 572), but not much:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/SGOTM4_6_BC0445_Corinth.png

Nice work timing the workers to population growth and growing the city while running two scientists.

Will Sparta finish the first GS by turn 161?

This isn't bad, given that our target date was turn 190.

Nice work timing the workers to population growth and growing the city while running two scientists.

Will Sparta finish the first GS by turn 161?

This isn't bad, given that our target date was turn 190.

Umm, yeah, except that I miscalculated by 10 turns :blush:. Updated picture posted.

I think Sparta is slightly ahead of Corinth.

Have checked the save now and I guess the main objective of my turnset is to finish off Hannibal. What I cannot find is the Carthagian Settler/Archer duo you have been talking about in the report? Where is it? Am I going blind or something? What I am not sure I understand is why the cat and a couple of other untis moved past hadrumetum and all the way to Carthage? Wouldn't it help us to take the towns in order of distance to travel. Or is the plan to move enough units to Carthage first then double back and take Hadrumetum?

All for CoL next, with Currency as prereq or? And plan on using zyxy's plan for Sparta.

@Wotan:
quick comments:
- settler/archer are Alex's
- getting Hanni small towns would not disrupt him as much as getting Carthage + conquest-wise, first units should travel far abroad, newer will backfill (since we are doing really a conquest, less an issue probably). In all case do not keep cities without team advice (apart from capitals of course).
- what is your plan on GG ?
- where are we heading research-wise ? I have nothing against going for CoL through Calendar by the way, but I think we need to discuss that a little more.

On a 2nd thought, keeping Carthage will request once more some defensive cheap troops....

- where are we heading research-wise ? I have nothing against going for CoL through Calendar by the way, but I think we need to discuss that a little more.

Astronomy! After calendar, we should research compass, metal casting, machinery and optics.

Astronomy! After calendar, we should research compass, metal casting, machinery and optics.

Agreed, but are we looking for CoL (courthouse/Caste) and if we are when/how (religious path vs. Currency path) ?
I know Astro is probably the tech we want most badly (even if we do not yet know if it is needed, but we supposed it from the start).

I'd keep with the most direct approach for Astro, which is the one you mention. But there are some mentions of Caste elsewhere in the thread so...

On a 2nd thought, keeping Carthage will request once more some defensive cheap troops....

We have to keep Carthage. A quick detour through archery might not be a bad idea at this point, but would slow us down even more.

58 Calendar + 858 Compass + 964 Metal Casting + 1501 Machinery + 1287 Optics + 2 GS Astronomy = 4668 beakers needed. At current rate, that takes 84 turns. We are only 60 turns from getting the second GS. Thus, we need to improve our research to make the target date of turn 197. Research to CoL is out of the question, imho.

Why is research at 90%? We are losing 1 commerce per turn to rounding - currently at 55, would be 56 if we were switching 100%/0% to 0%/100%.

Agreed on keeping it direct. Only question is that to upgrade our research rate, we need to improve our commerce/beakers output.

Since we already have libs, it is mostly raw commerce that we need
* Getting calendar will help with that, first.
* Getting Athens/Carthage will help too, plus getting gold from conquest is mandatory currently
* Not getting non-useful cities will help even more

Have shrines been built by the way (with StonHedge, has Hanni been able to do it) ? Cannot check the save at work, but that may be a reason to keep a city, so better knowing it right now.

Last, our costs are really climbing, and will as usual continue to do so. A detour through CoL for courthouse at some point might be worth it (of course, it can be after Astro, and if doable then it is better).

(with StonHedge, has Hanni been able to do it)

It's been determined that Hannibal does not have Stonehenge.

I thought he did. Ok. So I guess he does not have the shrine already.

Like David noted earlier, we might consider going for CoL right now, if through Caste System we think we can get a 3rd GS that can take care of Optics for us, to regain the time 'lost' on CoL.

I'm not sure I understand how CoL and Caste will help us. Currency is 858 beakers and CoL is 750. Thus, we'd be spending 1608 beakers, at least one turn in revolution and the population to run 4 scientists in a city -- all in place of simply researching Optics at a cost of 1287 beakers.

On the plus side, we would get +1 happy from ivory and Confucianism hasn't been founded yet. Is that worth spending an extra 321 beakers plus 1-2 turns in revolt?

What I am not sure I understand is why the cat and a couple of other untis moved past hadrumetum and all the way to Carthage? Wouldn't it help us to take the towns in order of distance to travel. Or is the plan to move enough units to Carthage first then double back and take Hadrumetum? Carthage is a nice town to keep. Hadrumetum IMO is soso. Besides, Carthage needs to be bombarded, Hadrumetum not necessarily. Hence, I went for Carthage. EDIT: btw, Hadrumetum is his third city: Utica must be somewhere.

And plan on using zyxy's plan for Sparta. Small correction: my plan is for Corinth, Daviddesj made the plan for Sparta.

Why is research at 90%? We are losing 1 commerce per turn to rounding - currently at 55, would be 56 if we were switching 100%/0% to 0%/100%. It has been at 0 or 100 for all but the last turn. We don't have enough money to sustain 100, but getting Calendar a turn sooner is worth more than 1 gold IMO :).

I'm not sure I understand how CoL and Caste will help us. Currency is 858 beakers and CoL is 750. Thus, we'd be spending 1608 beakers, at least one turn in revolution and the population to run 4 scientists in a city -- all in place of simply researching Optics at a cost of 1287 beakers. Currency is not very useful for us IMO. CoL could also be obtained through Priesthood, which is cheaper, roughly 1200 beakers for the lot. So if we can generate another GS for Optics, then this might work out...

On the plus side, we would get +1 happy from ivory and Confucianism hasn't been founded yet. Is that worth spending an extra 321 beakers plus 1-2 turns in revolt? To get +1 happy from ivory we need to build markets as well. Too expensive I say.

I think the real question is whether courts will be needed. At 180 (?) hammers each, I think the answer is "no", or at least the benefit will not outweigh the cost.

It has been at 0 or 100 for all but the last turn. We don't have enough money to sustain 100, but getting Calendar a turn sooner is worth more than 1 gold IMO :).

Glad to hear it.

I think the real question is whether courts will be needed. At 180 (?) hammers each, I think the answer is "no", or at least the benefit will not outweigh the cost.

I think not - the cost is really in production - running four priests in a city to generate the third GS will really slow our military buildup -- and that's before you factor in the cost of the courthouses.

I'm sorry I mentioned COL in the first place. If we were going for COL, I would go through Myst-Poly-Priest, rather than through Currency, so it would be (a bit) cheaper than Optics. But trying to run 4 scientists so that we can get 3 GS in 60 turns looks pretty tough. Let's forget the whole idea and concentrate on the main strategy we have been following all along, which is beeline to Optics and then two GS for Astronomy.

I would not say that the main goal of the next 10 turns is taking Carthage, although of course we should do that. Really the main goals are (1) make sure we are on track to get two GS before turn 200, if we fall off of our intended pace there is no way for us to speed it up, and, even more important, (2) boost our research as much as we can, so that we can actually get to Optics quickly, hopefully before turn 200. Mining and working the gold at Camsmurkz and Corinth is the biggest thing we can do in the short term to increase our commerce. Capturing enemy cities, particularly those with good commerce potential, is the second biggest thing.

On item (2), we need, at least, a plan of what our 5 workers are doing now, and what they will do for the next 10 turns. We should also have a plan for how many more catapults we need and where we will build them. We can get by with as few as one more (i.e., the one that is currently bombarding Carthage can next go bombard Timbuktu, and be sacrificed there, while we build a new one for Athens---the secondary cities probably don't need catapults), but having a couple more might make things easier. We should keep in mind, though, that over the next 60 turns our goal is commerce, much more than production.

Enemy cities other than capitals should probably only be kept if they can reach 10 commerce relatively quickly.

According to the current plan, Sparta will reach 150 GPP at the end of turn 167, and Corinth at the end of turn 171. So Sparta could be slowed down a few turns, for example to help it grow to size 6 faster.

It is also possible to speed up Corinth of course, but at the cost of turning it into a useless town for a long time.

Have we decided which town will generate the first scientist and which the second? Sparta first means that it can produce extra hammers from the ivory tiles; Corinth first means that it can produce extra beakers from cottaged FPs.

The latter looks better to me. In this case, Sparta needs to be slowed down.

I think that Sparta can produce as much commerce as Corinth in the short term (not including the gold, which we work in either case), if not more. It has the banana plantation, so it can easily work grassland cottages and even plains cottages, as well as the ivory.

Suggestion:

Smurkzdon worker - plantation / road spices, then plantation dye

Sparta worker - finish floodplain farm, chop/plantation/road banana OR finish floodplain farm, camp ivory, camp ivory

Corinth workers - finish floodplain farm, mine gold, floodplain farm. Send the spearman to defend the workers

Camsmurkz worker - mine gold, move to Sparta. Stop working grassland farm 1-2 turns to slow growth until the granary is finished.

Sparta worker - finish floodplain farm, chop/plantation/road banana OR finish floodplain farm, camp ivory, camp ivory

I don't see the point in doing anything with more ivory tiles until we improve the bananas---with two scientists, we aren't going to be able to work multiple ivory anyway?

Corinth workers - finish floodplain farm, mine gold, floodplain farm.

We can't mine the gold until borders expand. Plus we don't have enough food to work the gold and run two scientists until we get to size 6. So there's certainly no reason to build the gold mine before the second farm?

Camsmurkz worker - mine gold, move to Sparta.

I can't see the position, but don't we have two mines to build?

Stop working grassland farm 1-2 turns to slow growth until the granary is finished.

I'm not sure I understand this one, what are you going to work instead? Generating more food is always better than less food.

If I'm reading the chart correctly, Smurkzdon will be unhealthy at size 8. There's also a chance it will be unhappy, or will become unhappy as we increase our WW. We need some plan for how we're going to handle this, too.

Time to turn in for tonight. I have read through all comments and am getting into shape to play. But I remember David talking about wanting to play tue/wed, if so I am of course willing to swap with you and play later in the week. my calender is equally full for the whole week so makes no difference to me when I play.

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are good for me to play or contribute. After that, I will have intermittent access to play, again. I would be happy to take the next set if that would work better. I would post final plans tomorrow (Tuesday), then play Wednesday.

The important thing is to keep everyone engaged. Wotan, it seems you haven't been participating much. Would having some more time to catch up be better, or would playing now engage you more?

I'm not sure I understand this one, what are you going to work instead? Generating more food is always better than less food.

Camsmurkz will grow in 6 turns. The granary is complete in 7 turns. If we delay growth until the granary is complete, we'll save half the stockpile of food.

In Sparta, DaviddesJ is correct - finish floodplain farm, chop/plantation/road banana is the better choice.

In Corinth, you're also correct - finish floodplain farm, floodplain farm then mine gold per zyzx's plan is the best choice. The gold mine will be complete just before we grow to size 6.

It would help if everyone knew when we were planning to start running two scientists in Sparta and Corinth. So far, we aren't running any scientists anywhere. Per zyxy plan, we start running 1 scientist in Corinth in 8 turns, then 2 scientists in 11 turns. When do we start running scientists in Sparta?

Camsmurkz has two mines to build, but won't be able to work the second for quite some time (unless we do the granary/growth swap that I proposed). At any rate, for the next ten turns, building the first gold mine is the obvious priority.

Camsmurkz will grow in 6 turns. The granary is complete in 7 turns. If we delay growth until the granary is complete, we'll save half the stockpile of food.

No you don't. You just get the food that was put into the granary after it was built.

Wotan, you're going to post a plan for comment before playing, right?

No you don't. You just get the food that was put into the granary after it was built.

Ah, my bad. In that case, we definitely don't need the second mine in Camsmurkz immediately - it will be slow to grow to the population needed to use it. The worker could help Sparta, then return to build the second gold mine.

Camsmurkz can work cows, farm, 2 gold at size 4, if we are willing to give up the iron for more commerce. Or we can work cows, farm, iron, forest, to grow more quickly to size 5, and then work 2 gold at size 5. Or perhaps the best plan, if we have food stockpiled when the second gold mine is finished, is to just work cows, iron, 2 gold, for -1 food/turn until our food runs out. In any of these scenarios, finishing the second gold mine quickly is helpful. What is the "Camsmurkz worker" doing now?

As best I can tell, the Camsmurkz worker just finished building a road on the iron. Actually, it will be four turns before it can start working on the gold mine. So perhaps it could build a road on the gold mine toward Athens while it waits for the cultural expansion?

Also, that worker, along with many (but not all) other units, has already moved this turn.

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are good for me to play or contribute. After that, I will have intermittent access to play, again. I would be happy to take the next set if that would work better. I would post final plans tomorrow (Tuesday), then play Wednesday.

The important thing is to keep everyone engaged. Wotan, it seems you haven't been participating much. Would having some more time to catch up be better, or would playing now engage you more?

You take it now and I will play the next turn set.

My participation or lack there off is probably due to two reasons, firstly I am still learning CIV secondly I seem to enter into the discussions late so not much to add but to agree with a lot of what I have read. The lack of experience probabaly make it more difficult to really challenge some of the ideas put by others on the team.

EDIT: The fact I put pretty high demands on myself to not do badly also add to the equation. I want to understand what I am talking about prior to actually opening my mouth. Adding confusion to a discussion is not my idea of excellence. ;)

Wotan, you're going to post a plan for comment before playing, right?

Absolutely! Wouldn't want to risk ruining the game for everyone from a stupid call on an issue in the game. Besides I am not confident enough to play CIV at a level where I can fully grasp every aspect of a situation.

Just adding to the current discussion: I am fine with a swap if that helps getting the game moving (nto that we are yet late, but...). What you should plan for, Wotan, for your next turnset (right now or next) is to throw a plan to the team.

When I joined team Smurkz 3 GOTM before, I was feeling exactly the same. Just getting a plan out, even if wrong, was the solution to this paralysis. I was rightfully corrected, and still I am. But this is how it works, and will get you more comfortable quicker than just waiting for input in order to not say anything wrong.

Sounds weird to read myself saying that knowing that last turnset was played nearly live with DaviddesJ/Niklas, but I hope it'll help. In all case, early stopping is much better than going on if you ever feel something is not as expected.

Wotan, I think the best way to gain experience is to make suggestions and then let DaviddesJ point out why they are wrong. At least, that's been my plan so far. I've learned a lot from it.

I've already figured out some reasons why I win on Monarch (usually) and lose on Emperor (mostly). I make assumptions based on vaguely remembered experiences with Civ I/II. I never played that much Civ III and obviously haven't played enough Civ IV. I've never played a game where I planned worker actions so much in advance, for example.

But hey, I'm learning a lot and improving my game, so I appreciate everyone's participation.

Wotan, I think the best way to gain experience is to make suggestions and then let DaviddesJ point out why they are wrong. At least, that's been my plan so far. I've learned a lot from it.

I've already figured out some reasons why I win on Monarch (usually) and lose on Emperor (mostly). I make assumptions based on vaguely remembered experiences with Civ I/II. I never played that much Civ III and obviously haven't played enough Civ IV. I've never played a game where I planned worker actions so much in advance, for example.

But hey, I'm learning a lot and improving my game, so I appreciate everyone's participation.
I tend to basically follow your outline. Will probably have my turnset due on saturday so it should be perfect for an early evening session allowing David and others to be available at short notice for suggestions during play.

I had some travel delays, but I have the save file now and I've successfully loaded it. Will post a plan within 12 hours.

First observation is that taking Carthage is so easy, we didn't even really need to bombard it, and we aren't going to need most of our elephants. I'm wondering how we can expedite taking Athens as well. I'm not sure where we can get another catapult quickly, or whether we can divert the one from Carthage in a reasonable amount of time (it's a long way to walk).

It might be better to send the catapult north through Djenne to Timbuktu.

I had some travel delays, but I have the save file now and I've successfully loaded it. Will post a plan within 12 hours.

First observation is that taking Carthage is so easy, we didn't even really need to bombard it, and we aren't going to need most of our elephants. I'm wondering how we can expedite taking Athens as well. I'm not sure where we can get another catapult quickly, or whether we can divert the one from Carthage in a reasonable amount of time (it's a long way to walk).

There is no point in bombarding a town more than 7 turns before there are troops in place to take it. Besides, I like odds as good as possible: it not only saves units, but also healing time.

I wonder where Hannibals worker(s) are. Probably in Utica, and then I think it pays off to go there before Timbuktu.

There is no point in bombarding a town more than 7 turns before there are troops in place to take it. Besides, I like odds as good as possible: it not only saves units, but also healing time.

We don't need to save units. Indeed, we're probably going to have to stop building units after we accumulate enough elephants to kill our neighbors, because the maintenance cost of piling up more elephants is going to be too much, even though it would be useful, once we get Astronomy, to have stacks of elephants ready to go overseas.

But what really confuses me is the timing argument. How long do you want to wait before taking Athens? If we bombard Carthage for 6 more turns, and then we spend 13 turns moving to Athens, and then 7 turns bombarding it, that adds up to 26 turns before we can attack. Doesn't that seem like an awfully long time to wait?

I am working on posting my plan, but my current suggestion is to immediately rush a second catapult in Sparta. We can afford to lose 1 pop, which will set back Sparta's growth only a few turns, putting it on a similar schedule as Corinth for generating GS. And this will let us start bombarding Athens in 9 turns, we can hopefully capture it in about 16 turns.

I think zyzx was agreeing with me (and thus with you) that we should build another catapult for Athens, and send the current catapult north.

Here are my thoughts for coming turns. I would like to play about 8 hours from now.

1. Corinth will build a catapult in 8 turns. Rather than wait for that, I would like to poprush catapult in Sparta immediately. This will let us conquer Athens most quickly, which will help our economy. Sparta's growth will be set back by only a few turns (at size 3, it will soon be growing at +6f/turn, thus replacing 1 lost pop will only take 3-4 turns), bringing it in line with Corinth as far as building a GS (I think we will probably still have both GS before Optics). Sparta worker will finish farm, then work on bananas.

2. The Corinth catapult can bombard other cities, eventually be used against Timbuktu. Corinth will otherwise focus on growth and working toward 2 scientists.

3. Camsmurkz worker will start gold mine when possible, then build the second gold mine next. We will grow to size 4 on turn 143, complete first gold mine and start working it on turn 148, complete second gold mine on turn 157, grow to size 5 and start working second gold on turn 158. At size 5, Camsmurkz will be able to work cows, farm, iron, 2 gold. After granary, I suggest we build aqueduct then Hanging Gardens (we will connect stone when we capture Athens).

4. After Calendar, I intend to research Metal Casting next. One of our coastal cities (Oxsmurkz? Athens? Carthage?) can build forge then Colossus.

5. Smurkzdon and Oxsmurkz will continue building elephants for my 10 turns. Smurkzdon worker will build spice plantation and connect it. (Optionally, we could build one more catapult, in Smurkzdon or Oxsmurkz. Anyone think we need that?)

6. My plan for the Great General is to stack four elephants and give them each +5xp, to promote them to Combat 3. We can't do this in time to use them in the attack on Carthage (unless we delay it), plus the CR3 axes we already have should be quite effective at Carthage. So my plan is to assemble a stack of four elephants for this purpose, en route to Athens.

7. Attack Carthage in 6 turns, with three CR3 axes, one C2 elephant, two C1 elephants.

8. It seems very likely to me we'll lose the axeman near Athens. Alexander can easily kill it with an archer from Athens. He's also going to reconnect the copper, before we can do anything about it. :( I will get elephants down there, as soon as possible, to pin him down again.

9. The axeman near Timbuktu I will also retreat toward home, unless it dies first. I don't really want to pillage Mansa's hamlets, I would rather work them after we capture his cities. I might explore further, while keeping to the woods for safety, but I think we do need more units at home.

Any comments before I play? I will check back later, before starting.

I think it looks good. I'm wonder a bit about the wonders (pun not intended) though, will we really have that many units already that we can spend so many shields building Hanging Gardens and Colossus? I'm not disputing their value for us though, and if it's true that we'll have way too many units then sure why not.

I definitely think you should go ahead with the cat in Sparta, I'm sure we'll have the GSs before Optics no matter what, and I want Athens.

EDIT: Btw, video card seems to have recovered well enough to run civ again.

I think it looks good. I'm wonder a bit about the wonders (pun not intended) though, will we really have that many units already that we can spend so many shields building Hanging Gardens and Colossus?

I think there will be a time when we have enough units already built and en route to take out our neighbors on this continent, and yet we are far enough from Astronomy that we don't really want all of our cities building elephants flat out, we will just pile up so many of them that maintenance costs will burden us and delay our conquest.

So what do we want to do with our hammers? Wonders seem a good thing to build, in this time frame. Hanging Gardens costs 375 hammers (with stone), including the cost of the aqueduct; Colossus costs 347 hammers (with copper), including the cost of the forge. And they will both translate fairly directly into extra commerce and faster research.

Actually, maybe I have a better idea. If we research Currency, then we can build Wealth in some cities. This is a much better option than it was in Vanilla, because the hammers are not divided by 2 before conversion to gold. And each gold we produce lets us generate 1.25 extra beakers, if we have libraries everywhere (by increasing our research rate).

And the true cost to us to research Currency is not much at all. The direct cost is 715 beakers (858/1.2). But we get an extra 12.5 beakers/turn from extra trade routes (if we have 10 cities), which adds up to 625 beakers over 50 turns.

So, if we build only a small amount of Wealth, in some cities, we will still come out well ahead. And we can boost our research a lot, this way. This also gives us much more control, i.e., we can tweak our