Case 1: Yes, enough land can be reached by galleys. In this case we more or less know from SGOTM5 how to proceed. The only techs we miss are Sailing, Pottery, Writing and Mathematics (and maybe Mysticism for cheap border expansion). The only infrastructure our cities need are barracks and granaries. All other hammers must go to unit production. The Henge might be a good investment in this scenario.

Barracks in London and York are going to be needed sooner or later. They can build any needed axemen and warriors first but swords should be built after barracks.

So how do we proceed given no knowledge of which case is valid? Since the techs and buildings needed for case 1 is more or less a subset of the techs and buildings needed for case 2 I would suggest that we put emphasis on those and of course also put emphasis on the exploration that will eventually reveal what case is true.

Information is probably the most important thing we need now. I would think the workboat is best used going south from York, and west along the land bridge if it leads somewhere. A warrior could be sent north from London or York, along the western border, attempt to locate any other crossing points for boats, and then check out the north of the continent. A warrior from Timbuktu (a new one perhaps, or an existing one after an axeman is defending the area) can explore the eastern shore (notice the coast north of Tim). And after the first axeman arrives at Carthage, the woodsman warrior can explore the southern shore and the land SW of Athens. The second axeman sent to Athens can explore the western shore on his way if the workboat hasn't done so already. It's not yet clear if a second workboat out of York would be useful for exploration. Carthage could build another workboat if it is revealed that one is needed to explore potential routes on the east coast.

How to handle either case is, of course, open for discussion and my point is merely that we should choose a flexible approach meaning that we don't spend a lot of gold and hammers on techs and infra structure which is not needed in case 1 and that we don't commit ourselves to maintain a large army early on just to find out that we are in case 2 and will have a hard time getting Astronomy researched.

We can all agree that capturing Carthage and Athens are necessary in both case 1 and case 2. The supply costs for sending out the units to capture those cities will hurt in the short term if we haven't executed our cash generating strategy yet, but we can minimize the costs by having a good road network, and once the cities are captured, Carthage and Athens will pay for themselves. And both cities will fit well into our strategy whether we face case 1 or case 2. The maintenance of Iron City is also going to be a temporary drain on our economy, so we should try to time the founding of that city with the completions of barracks in York and London. We should be able to build two swords in York and three in London in approximately equal times, and then send them all out together to minimize unit supply cost.

After the continent is cleared, our newly conquered population should be sufficient for unit support, so that army maintenance will not slow down our tech rate at all. Athens, Carthage, and Timbuktu can all support large populations. The sooner we conquer Athens and Carthage, the faster we can execute any endgame scenario.

Perhaps it is best to tech towards Writing and Math next. Writing will open up the library border expansion option, and after Math, if is appearing that we will need Astro, we can try for Oracle, and the increased forest yield will mean being able to chop Oracle with 5 forests. With prechopping, the Oracle would not come much later than if we had gone for Myst-Poly-Preist immediately.

Since I am not at home, I'm not sure how all these plans really work together, how many turns we can expect for the techs, and which city should be producing what. Leif's offer to update the practice map would be very useful, as would testing out whether the AI really do send out multiple settler parties to be killed by axemen.

I would like to take a step back and look at the overall strategy.
Your post gives an accurate description of how we need to play.


How to handle either case is, of course, open for discussion...
In terms of flexibility, the Carthage/Athens for 5th/6th city works well:

I just read ShannonCT's post after I typed this and agree with what he says.

Exploration takes priority, workboats and extra warriors go explore.
Build 3 axemen for AI hassle and core defence (Case1 & Case2)
Settle Ironsite, get gold for research (Case2), get iron for military units (Case1 & Case2)
Target Carthage and Athens as 5th/6th cities (strongly useful for both Case1 & Case2)
Carthage = production centre on eastern coast. Useful for early exploration, building military and ships. 7 forests give flexibility for hammers or commerce.
Athens = resource capital of the world. Gives us stone, has a balance of food/hammers/commerce and is coastal for fast navy construction. 7 forests give flexibility for hammers or commerce.

The more I look at it, Carthage/Athens are the best city sites on the whole island and we can have them for an investment of 6 swords (360 hammers) ( 2 settlers cost 300 hammers). We could have Carthage in 50-60 turns and Athens in 70-80 turns (rough guess).

The tricky thing is estimating the timing and the upkeep costs. The gold in Ironsite will quickly offset the cost of settling. In my opinion we almost can't get it settled soon enough...

I'd love to play an updated test map, no pressure leif! ;) :mischief:

writing->math... and then ->sailing->pottery

I also played a bit with one of the test games. BW was discovered by the barbs around turn 90 and archery not before turn 130 :confused:. Maybe barb research has been changed so that they need the prerequisites (Hunting) - as far as I remember from SGOTM5 Archery was one of the first techs we learned through barb research. The knowledge of BW didn't seem to spawn any barb axes.

In SGOTM5 the AI's had archers (and archery?) to start the game because it was a monarch game. This one is only prince, so the barbs will be longer getting archery in this one since they are not getting free beakers towards it from turn 1 like they were in SGOTM5.

More graph analysis:

I was looking at CRC's culture graph. From turns 0-72, they average slightly less than 2 culture per turn. That's from the capital. From turns 72-93, they average around 3.3 culture per turn. Could be they built a couple monuments, or a library, or even a wonder near the end of the turnset. From turns 93-104, they average around 4.3 culture per turn. So they didn't build a wonder the previous turnset. or they would have averaged more during 93-104. Between turns 104-105, I'm seeing a significant jump in culture. Then, from turns 105-121, they average 20 culture per turn. So it's looking like they finished a wonder. Stonehenge gives 8 culture, not nearly enough to explain the jump. Most likely, they Oracled CoL and got 8+5 culture per turn for Oracle and the Confucian holy city. So it seems Oracle is possible at least through turn 105.

In terms of flexibility, the Carthage/Athens for 5th/6th city works well: Okay, but we will want a seventh city for war elephants.

Exploration takes priority, workboats Not sure a second workboat is such a priority that it can't wait until Carthage is captured. and extra warriors go explore.
Build 3 axemen for AI hassle and core defence (Case1 & Case2) Not so sure about this. The real danger is the AI connecting a metal. Founding another city shouldn't be a great problem, given how soon we'll have swords and then cats and WE's. Let's at least consider a settler for the iron next in London before we add units.
Settle Ironsite, get gold for research (Case2), get iron for military units (Case1 & Case2)
Target Carthage and Athens as 5th/6th cities (strongly useful for both Case1 & Case2) No question about Carthage. We might be wise to wait for cats on Athens, if the wait is not too long.

The more I look at it, Carthage/Athens are the best city sites on the whole island and we can have them for an investment of 6 swords (360 hammers) ( 2 settlers cost 300 hammers). We could have Carthage in 50-60 turns and Athens in 70-80 turns (rough guess) I think we can have Construction around turn 60, if we get the iron city founded quickly and work the gold..

The tricky thing is estimating the timing and the upkeep costs. The gold in Ironsite will quickly offset the cost of settling. In my opinion we almost can't get it settled soon enough...Yes.

writing->math... and then ->sailing->pottery

I do think we should go ahead and research Mysticism before Writing and Math. Besides needing it eventually for CoL and possibly the Oracle after Math, it will allow us to whip a monument in Timbuktu, giving us access to all the forests. The library seems a waste there to me, as there's not going to be enough commerce, and we can run scientists through Caste System soon enough. Library in the iron city makes sense.

It's not inconceivable that we will be able to build Stonehenge after capturing Athens, which is yet another reason not to chop it.

It seems like we are close to a consensus on the way forward. Allow me to suggest a draft plan:

Tech: Mysticism (4) - Writing - Math
Builds:
London: Axe(1) -> Axe -> Warrior -> Barracks -> Sword
York: Work boat (11) -> Barracks ->Sword
Timbuktu: Worker (4) -> Monument (chop) -> Settler (chop+whip) -> Barracks

Worker actions:
York workers: Mine gold, Mine plains hill, move south of London and build road.
Timbuktu workers: farm grassland (4), chop Monument, chop settler, road SW until border expansion then farm bananas and mine hills.

We could let York grow to size 3 working rice and cow and then let it stagnate working rice, gold and plains hill mine. That would allow us to start growing London again by working the cow instead of the copper for a short while. Can we afford the hammers lost at this moment?

The above draft plan should be consistent with fast settling of the Iron City and with a speedy attack on the AI. It also means that we delay the 2nd work boat for a while and we only build 2 more axes: 1 for Timbuktu and 1 for iron city and a warrior for MP duty in York. This also means that the axe on the hill NE of York should probably be pulled back and placed somewhere on the road connecting York and London. I put in Mysticism first as suggested by CP because it has great timing with the development of Timbuktu. We have two workers ready to chop the monument exactly when Mysticism is done. And we desperately need that border expansion in order to farm bananas and mine grassland hills. Timbuktu does not have copper so it seemed best to produce the settler there. It will take the settler about 4 extra turns to reach the Iron City spot compared to a settler coming out of London - see picture:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Plan0000.JPG

Yellow line marks the settler route and the red lines are a warrior (W) and an axe (A) that are moved into position before the settler is ready. The axe could probably be the second axe built in London with the first axe moving directly to Timbuktu.

The brown lines are proposed roads. The road connecting to the river has lower priority but it does give an extra 2gpt and connects Timbuktu with copper and gold.

I haven't worked out the timing for all this so I don't know if the Iron City is settled soon enough to enable the sword builds. Anyway this is only a draft.

EDIT: Maybe the fastest way to get the settler is to build barracks for a couple of turns after the Monument until Timbuktu reaches pop 4 and then switch to Settler and whip as soon as possible.

Since I am not at home, I'm not sure how all these plans really work together, how many turns we can expect for the techs, and which city should be producing what. Leif's offer to update the practice map would be very useful, as would testing out whether the AI really do send out multiple settler parties to be killed by axemen.
Good discussion. There are so many options but there can be but one road traveled! :eek:

I will try to update a map in WorldBuilder as soon as I can. As I am new still to it, it may be a bit longer than I initially thought, having relooked at the map. :blush: But I accept the challenge... :mischief:

Not so sure about this. The real danger is the AI connecting a metal. Founding another city shouldn't be a great problem, given how soon we'll have swords and then cats and WE's. Let's at least consider a settler for the iron next in London before we add units.

Remember that there is iron near both Athens and Carthage. If we have only one axe near each city, we are most likely unable to defeat a settler party of two archers. And if one of them settles on top of iron, at least that new city would be able to build axes.

If Timbuktu builds our settler, London and York could still focus on building the axemen we need to harrass Athens and Carthage. Since Tim doesn't have any high hammer or gold tiles to work right now, it's no problem to whip a settler there at Pop4 and get it done just as fast as London could. With London free to grow, it can continue to approach Pop6, when it can work rice, cows, and four hills for 17 hammers per turn.

I do think we should go ahead and research Mysticism before Writing and Math. Besides needing it eventually for CoL and possibly the Oracle after Math, it will allow us to whip a monument in Timbuktu, giving us access to all the forests. The library seems a waste there to me, as there's not going to be enough commerce, and we can run scientists through Caste System soon enough. Library in the iron city makes sense.

I was thinking a library would be useful for Tim because eventually it's going to be either a cottage city or a specialist city. Clearly a library isn't going to increase beakers there right away like it would in Iron City. Could we chop/whip a library there at Pop4 and then chop whip a settler at Pop2? I can't look at the save. How many turns are we from Writing if we skip Myst, and how many turns would it take to get to Pop4 in Tim after finishing the worker?


We could let York grow to size 3 working rice and cow and then let it stagnate working rice, gold and plains hill mine. That would allow us to start growing London again by working the cow instead of the copper for a short while. Can we afford the hammers lost at this moment?

This is what I was thinking for London and York. Let York grow to Pop3 and then give the cows back to London. How many turns would it take to grow London to Pop4 if switching from copper to bananas? Or from gold to bananas?

I will try to update a map in WorldBuilder as soon as I can. As I am new still to it, it may be a bit longer than I initially thought, having relooked at the map. :blush: But I accept the challenge... :mischief:

I think the most useful thing would be the ability to test out the production orders and worker actions for our three existing cities. I don't think you necessarily need to get the southern half of the continent right. The AI in the real game wont necessarily behave the same as in a practice game. We can separately test AI behavior on different maps that don't need to match the real game.

No rush here folks. There are a lot of choices at this point and we don't want to waste the great start we have.

Remember that there is iron near both Athens and Carthage. If we have only one axe near each city, we are most likely unable to defeat a settler party of two archers. And if one of them settles on top of iron, at least that new city would be able to build axes.

That is a concern. We could move our axe on top of the iron if the settler draws near to prevent the AI from settling there. The axe could then return to the capital when the city has been settled elsewhere. By skipping two axes we get more swords and we get them sooner.

I was thinking a library would be useful for Tim because eventually it's going to be either a cottage city or a specialist city. Clearly a library isn't going to increase beakers there right away like it would in Iron City. Could we chop/whip a library there at Pop4 and then chop whip a settler at Pop2? I can't look at the save. How many turns are we from Writing if we skip Myst, and how many turns would it take to get to Pop4 in Tim after finishing the worker?

Building a Library in Tim now does not fit well with case 1 and it could turn out to be a waste of hammers. A monument is much cheaper, it gives the border expansion we need and one more happy face which is also nice in a city that grows fast and should host 4-5 scientists at some point.


This is what I was thinking for London and York. Let York grow to Pop3 and then give the cows back to London. How many turns would it take to grow London to Pop4 if switching from copper to bananas? Or from gold to bananas?

We have 8/39 food gaining 1 per turn. If we switch copper -> cow we gain 4 per turn. York is 14 turns from Pop 3 working cows+rice at which point London would be at 22/39 so maybe switch after 15 turns when London could grow to pop 4 in 4 turns. Or switch away from gold to cow in turn 14 and then from copper to gold in turn 15.


I think the most useful thing would be the ability to test out the production orders and worker actions for our three existing cities.

And maybe also the Iron City site.

No rush here folks. There are a lot of choices at this point and we don't want to waste the great start we have.

Yes, lets keep the discussion going, rrau said she can't play until after Christmas anyway.

"Remember that there is iron near both Athens and Carthage. If we have only one axe near each city, we are most likely unable to defeat a settler party of two archers. And if one of them settles on top of iron, at least that new city would be able to build axes." This wouldn't be a disaster and probably not very likely.

If we build the settler in London, we will not only get the iron settled quicker, but will also be able to both chop and whip swords in Timbuktu -- plus London is growing much slower now than Timbuktu, so less is lost by switching to settler there.

If we build the settler in London, we will not only get the iron settled quicker, but will also be able to both chop and whip swords in Timbuktu -- plus London is growing much slower now than Timbuktu, so less is lost by switching to settler there.

Settler takes 16 turns in London. In Timbuktu the numbers are something like worker (4) -> Monument (3-4, w. chop) -> Settler (4 turns, w chop + whip 2 pop). The longer distance from Timbuktu mean that despite building it faster it will arrive at approximately the same time.

This could be tested if leif manages to mock up something in the world builder.

Btw. we really need a granary in Timbuktu so that we can double the hammer output from whipping.

Settler takes 16 turns in London. In Timbuktu the numbers are something like worker (4) -> Monument (3-4, w. chop) -> Settler (4 turns, w chop + whip 2 pop). The longer distance from Timbuktu mean that despite building it faster it will arrive at approximately the same time.

This could be tested if leif manages to mock up something in the world builder.

Btw. we really need a granary in Timbuktu so that we can double the hammer output from whipping.

If Tim can get a settler to the iron just as fast as London can, I agree it is better to have Tim build it. London can become an even stronger production city if it is allowed to grow. London is needed right now for building military that Tim can't build. I'm wondering how long it would take to build another worker in Tim after a settler. If Tim is eventually going to help with military, it will need roads to join it to our network. Continuing the road SW would connect Tim with the planned roads between London and the South.

Pottery is an option after Writing-Math. We'll know more about the map by the time math is done, and we'll be able to make a better decision about whether we're facing a short game or a long game.

Just thinking about our unit count and unit maintenance: We have 9 units and an axeman, worker, and workboat on the way. Our current population (7) can support 12 units. That will go up to 13 when our population is at 9, which should be soon. After that, we can have 15 units for a cost of 1 and 17 units for a cost of 2. So even if we start going over the free unit limit, the cost will be pretty low. The bigger costs could come with unit supply. We currently have three units in the field. We get two more for free. The workboat will be one, and if we send out more exploratory warriors and roadbuilding workers, we will start to incur supply costs. We should try to find ways to use our workers to minimize supply costs without compromising our other plans. For instance, if we aren't going to work the gold near York until it hits Pop3, 1 worker can build the mine and one can start building roads south and east from London. Or if there is a banana farm that could be built in 4 turns with two workers but won't be needed for 8 turns, one worker should probably go outside and start building needed roads if doing so wouldn't add to supply costs.

Just a reminder:
0-5 units outside borders: cost=0
6-7 units outside borders: cost=1
8-9 units outside borders: cost=2
etc...

It's better to have an odd number of units outside of borders, everything else being equal.

I seem to be in the minority, and I may well be wrong, but I'm going to make the case one more time for building the settler in London:

Premised upon:
1. The need for more axes is not sufficient to merit their construction. We can just move the sentry axe N of London to Tim and keep the new one at home, while sending the present MP warrior to the hill the sentry now occupies. Swords (along with cats and WE) are what we will want to use off continent.
2. Any chops before Math waste hammers. We can whip monument in Tim and reserve all the hammers in the forests there for barracks and swords.
3. Growing London means moving off great tiles. Now is not the time to do that.
4. Tim is closer to Carthage than London is.

So: Build settler in London and begin barracks; finish worker, whip monument, then grow (as barracks are built) Tim so can whip an unpromoted sword ASAP, while workers start road south towards Carthage, getting back in time to pre-chop just before Math comes in. Take Carthage primarily with swords from Tim (hoping the first sword to arrive there is able to gain some promotions); after workboat, build warriors in York for defensive purposes in and around London/Iron-city area, and grow to size three to work gold, rice, and cows; and construct road system SE from London, as has been suggested.

1. The need for more axes is not sufficient to merit their construction. We can just move the sentry axe N of London to Tim and keep the new one at home, while sending the present MP warrior to the hill the sentry now occupies. Swords (along with cats and WE) are what we will want to use off continent.

This will probably work out. Things could get nasty though if London and York are attacked by two barb warriors simultaneously and we only have one unit for defense.

2. Any chops before Math waste hammers. We can whip monument in Tim and reserve all the hammers in the forests there for barracks and swords.

You could use the same argument and say that all whipping before granary is a waste of food. Actually a bigger waste since the food needed to regrow pop is actually reduced by a factor of 2 while the chop yield is only increased by a factor of 1.5 by Math. Anyway, I see your point, there is an advantage in keeping the forests.

3. Growing London means moving off great tiles. Now is not the time to do that.

This is clearly a problem, but we have to do this sooner or later. The idea was actually to wait 14 turns and then start growing London when York reaches pop3. Do you want to wait longer than that? And why?

4. Tim is closer to Carthage than London is.

Yes, distance from Tim to Carthage is 13 MP and from London to Carthage it is 16 MP. Not a whole lot of difference.

So: Build settler in London and begin barracks; finish worker, whip monument, then grow (as barracks are built) Tim so can whip an unpromoted sword ASAP, while workers start road south towards Carthage, getting back in time to pre-chop just before Math comes in. Take Carthage primarily with swords from Tim (hoping the first sword to arrive there is able to gain some promotions); after workboat, build warriors in York for defensive purposes in and around London/Iron-city area, and grow to size three to work gold, rice, and cows; and construct road system SE from London, as has been suggested.

There is a potential problem here: Timbuktu is not connected to London so it is not able to build any swords until that is established. I originally thought that connecting London with the river that runs close to Timbuktu would do the trick, but after playing with the world builder to confirm this I'm not so sure anymore. Does anyone know exactly how you can connect to a river with a road? In my world builder example it didn't work out for some reason I don't understand.

I seem to be in the minority, and I may well be wrong, but I'm going to make the case one more time for building the settler in London:

I think it will be a lot easier to decide which course is best when we can actually test different options on a practice map and get some hard figures.

2. Any chops before Math waste hammers. We can whip monument in Tim and reserve all the hammers in the forests there for barracks and swords.

30 hammers now can be worth more than 45 hammers later (depends on when later is; any idea how long 'til math?).

4. Tim is closer to Carthage than London is.

If the two workers near Tim need to go back to Tim to pre-chop the sword army, how far can they actually build the road to Carthage? Is Tim really closer when this is taken into account?

...Tim so can whip an unpromoted sword ASAP, while workers start road south towards Carthage, getting back in time to pre-chop just before Math comes in.

What is the plan for the unpromoted sword? Trying to intercept a settler party?


There is a potential problem here: Timbuktu is not connected to London so it is not able to build any swords until that is established. I originally thought that connecting London with the river that runs close to Timbuktu would do the trick, but after playing with the world builder to confirm this I'm not so sure anymore. Does anyone know exactly how you can connect to a river with a road? In my world builder example it didn't work out for some reason I don't understand.

Have you tried if on an unmodified map? I wonder if the strange river interface in Worldbuilder is creating problems with your test

A great Christmas to all. I'll be back in a few days. :)

So: Build settler in London and begin barracks; finish worker, whip monument, then grow (as barracks are built) Tim so can whip an unpromoted sword ASAP, while workers start road south towards Carthage, getting back in time to pre-chop just before Math comes in. Take Carthage primarily with swords from Tim (hoping the first sword to arrive there is able to gain some promotions); after workboat, build warriors in York for defensive purposes in and around London/Iron-city area, and grow to size three to work gold, rice, and cows; and construct road system SE from London, as has been suggested.

I like CP's suggestion, with fast settling of ironsite and quickly raising 4-5 swords. We can flesh out the details in a trial game.

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If our cr2 axe finds only an archer and warrior in Carthage still... have we all made up our minds that we shouldn't attack?

What we lose if we lose: set back settling of ironsite and London builds by about 6 turns as we build a replacement axe. Set back exploration of south part of continent as forest-promoted warrior is kept at Carthage to keep worker inside city.

What we win if we win: fast track capture of Carthage by about 40 turns and speed up the capture of Athens by 15 or so turns. Also can open up the eastern area of the map for exploration much faster than usual.

The capture won't slow down the research for the next 30-40 turns since the gold from capture and commerce from ocean tiles will offset maintenance. City can also connect to our trade network very easily with the long snaking river that runs past it.

Initially I thought we shouldn't risk it... but it is an appealing gamble.

If our cr2 axe finds only an archer and warrior in Carthage still... have we all made up our minds that we shouldn't attack?

What we lose if we lose: set back settling of ironsite and London builds by about 6 turns as we build a replacement axe. Set back exploration of south part of continent as forest-promoted warrior is kept at Carthage to keep worker inside city.

What we win if we win: fast track capture of Carthage by about 40 turns and speed up the capture of Athens by 15 or so turns. Also can open up the eastern area of the map for exploration much faster than usual.

The capture won't slow down the research for the next 30-40 turns since the gold from capture and commerce from ocean tiles will offset maintenance. City can also connect to our trade network very easily with the long snaking river that runs past it.

Initially I thought we shouldn't risk it... but it is an appealing gamble.

I'm fine with taking a shot at Carthage if there are only a warrior and archer there. I think the upside justifies the risk.

Given that we aren't sending a second axe to kill a settler party, the axe isn't really going to be doing anything that the warrior couldn't be doing. If the axe did die, the warrior might want to move between Carthage and the iron and try to keep any settler from settling on top of it. We don't even need to send a replacement axe if the AI is unwilling to send out a worker when our warrior is near. Our swords will be coming soon anyway.

This will probably work out. Things could get nasty though if London and York are attacked by two barb warriors simultaneously and we only have one unit for defense. My experience is that a pair of barb warriors this early in the game is unlikely, but it indeed could get tricky, even though we would have an axe in the city and a warrior not too far away on the sentry hill. There will be a warrior built in York fairly soon, as well. Would judge risk worth the reward.

You could use the same argument and say that all whipping before granary is a waste of food. Actually a bigger waste since the food needed to regrow pop is actually reduced by a factor of 2 while the chop yield is only increased by a factor of 1.5 by Math. You're right, of course. I hadn't thought about it that way, but like much of my scenario, it is justified by quicker capture of powerful cities. Anyway, I see your point, there is an advantage in keeping the forests.

This is clearly a problem, but we have to do this sooner or later. The idea was actually to wait 14 turns and then start growing London when York reaches pop3. Do you want to wait longer than that? Certainly until the settler is built, after that I wouldn't want to move off the gold (certainly not for many turns, but off the copper might be worth it) until we get to Mathematics and can start chopping swords.And why? My intuition is that in this case the short term advantage of getting Athens and Carthage quickly, plus quicker research is more important than the long-term advantage of growing sooner onto good, but not great, tiles that our workers would have to improve when they need to build roads and the iron city gold mine. Along this line, I'm anxious to get the York gold mine operating -- not certain we want to grow York to size three before working it. The city will grow at 2f/turn while we work it.

Yes, distance from Tim to Carthage is 13 MP and from London to Carthage it is 16 MP. Not a whole lot of difference. Some roadwork SE of Tim should increase this advantage a turn or two, but the big difference -- and I'd certainly like to test this -- is that, even waiting until after Math, barracks and swords can be chopped in Tim and sent to Carthage much quicker than built in London (and London is closer to Athens than Tim is, so we would not next be chopping in Tim to send units to Athens. We'd be producing units mainly in London for Athens).

There is a potential problem here: Timbuktu is not connected to London so it is not able to build any swords until that is established. I originally thought that connecting London with the river that runs close to Timbuktu would do the trick, but after playing with the world builder to confirm this I'm not so sure anymore. Does anyone know exactly how you can connect to a river with a road? In my world builder example it didn't work out for some reason I don't understand. If we can't connect to Tim via a short road and the river, then obviously forget my approach.

I think it will be a lot easier to decide which course is best when we can actually test different options on a practice map and get some hard figures. Absolutely, that's all I ask.

30 hammers now can be worth more than 45 hammers later (depends on when later is; any idea how long 'til math?). Certainly so. Since we're going to be testing, I'm not going to strain to get an exact number of turns, but (depending on how soon we hook up a York gold mine (and briefly one adjacent to the Iron City) I think we're talking about 30 turns, roughly 15 after the settler is built and the monument expands culture in Tim.

If the two workers near Tim need to go back to Tim to pre-chop the sword army, how far can they actually build the road to Carthage? Is Tim really closer when this is taken into account? Again, we can test, but the workers around London need to build gold mines, a road to the river and to the iron city, in addition to paving to the south, while those at Tim can begin road construction quickly. I think every two tiles of road will save one turn to Carthage, and the return will be via road, so won't take too many turns.

What is the plan for the unpromoted sword? Trying to intercept a settler party? Just thinking it will make us better able to deal with many possible eventualities, plus get promoted. While we couldn't prevent settlement and capture a worker with one sword, we could certainly dispense with one archer, get promote, and then probalby take out the new city after our sword heals. BTW, I meant to mention earlier that a city settled on iron will probably take 15 turns to build an axe. I think we'd be able to raze it first, and it might actually benefit us as a training ground for our first pair of swords..

Have you tried if on an unmodified map? I wonder if the strange river interface in Worldbuilder is creating problems with your test Hope something like that is the problem.

"I'm fine with taking a shot at Carthage if there are only a warrior and archer there. I think the upside justifies the risk. Before I add my agreemant, I'd like to know if JT took into account that Carthage will likely expand just before axe reaches it?

I think it will be a lot easier to decide which course is best when we can actually test different options on a practice map and get some hard figures.
Sorry I haven't been here to discuss this further.

Progress Report
I have the basic map built. I have to figure out some refinements, so I hope to post a save within 48 hours for some testing. World Builder is pretty cool, once you get used to its quirks. :rolleyes:

I highly recommend the CIV Modding Manual available for download in This Post!! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3208139&postcount=1) It explains how to build a scenario and how to use World Builder. :D

The next thing I have to dig into a bit is discussed in This Post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135669) I hope it tells me how to set the details in the cities, like how far along a build is and how much food is in the box, etc. Those are the details left to clean up, along with setting the turn clock. Hope I can get them done fairly quickly but we shall see.

The last thing I have to consider is what techs to give the AI Civs. Anyone know who has changed civics to Slavery, indicating they know Bronze Working? Thus far, I have given them the basics plus Archery and Writing, along with the techs needed to get there. Should I give any of them Settlers, or does it matter?

OK, off to bed!! :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

"I'm fine with taking a shot at Carthage if there are only a warrior and archer there. I think the upside justifies the risk. Before I add my agreemant, I'd like to know if JT took into account that Carthage will likely expand just before axe reaches it?


With the culture going from 20% to 40%, the chances to beat an unpromoted fortified archer go from 63% to 30%.:(

The window is still open, but less open than I thought before.


Progress Report
I have the basic map built. I have to figure out some refinements, so I hope to post a save within 48 hours for some testing. World Builder is pretty cool, once you get used to its quirks. :rolleyes:


Thanks much leif! :goodjob:

The test map is mostly for how we time our own builds and unit movements rather than accurately gauging what the AI will do. So don't go nutty trying to set the AI up perfectly. :crazyeye:

With the culture going from 20% to 40%, the chances to beat an unpromoted fortified archer go from 63% to 30%.:(

Those odds don't sound too promising, especially considering that there's always a chance that you kill one archer and another gets built. The chance of winning Carthage is probably more like 20% or less. Save the axe and maybe we can do something with it if we send an early sword ahead.

The next thing I have to dig into a bit is discussed in This Post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135669) I hope it tells me how to set the details in the cities, like how far along a build is and how much food is in the box, etc. Those are the details left to clean up, along with setting the turn clock. Hope I can get them done fairly quickly but we shall see.

It might be more than just details, I'm afraid. If you get stuck just post a 4000BC save with the correct map then maybe we can replay the initial sequence - the turn logs are pretty detailed and if the RNG gives a different result than in the game we can reload and try again. If that also fails we can use the old pen and paper method to compare the strategies.

The last thing I have to consider is what techs to give the AI Civs. Anyone know who has changed civics to Slavery, indicating they know Bronze Working? Thus far, I have given them the basics plus Archery and Writing, along with the techs needed to get there. Should I give any of them Settlers, or does it matter?


You can use the (HOF) Foreign Advisor Info screen to see the civics of the other civs. In this case both Alex and Hannibal have adopted slavery. I don't think they have writing since this is Prince level. No settlers - we don't see any.

A great Christmas to all. I'll be back in a few days. :)

Merry Christmas to you too, Professor and to the rest of the XTeam crew :xmascheers:.

I guess you must be busy stuffing the kangaroo for the Christmas dinner. You do need quite a lot of apples for that...

I will also be away between the 24th and 28th.

Those odds don't sound too promising, especially considering that there's always a chance that you kill one archer and another gets built. The chance of winning Carthage is probably more like 20% or less. Save the axe and maybe we can do something with it if we send an early sword ahead.

I'm also inclined to save the axe for a later attack. More so because I think we need the warrior outside Carthage to do some scouting. I suggest we send him along the south and west coast and let our work boat travel north and down along the east coast. There is one piece of information I forgot to mention in my turn log. I saw a Greek work boat pass by London and I guess that means that the peninsula to the west is small. Actually I was surprised that the AI would scout using a work boat but then later I realized that it was heading for the clam tile on the eastern side of Athens! This further implies that there is no passage south of Athens due to the tundra extending down to the ice. Thus it seems much better to go north with the WB where it can hopefully find a passage to the west coast.

If someone want to have a go at the pen and paper planning here are the essential stats:

London (3 pop): Food 8/39, 1fpt, Build Axe 47/52, 9hpt
York (1 pop): Food 16/33, 4fpt, Build work boat 12/45, 3hpt
Timbuktu (3 pop): Food 20/39, Build worker 64/90 5fpt + 3hpt.

Maps can be found here:

Maps (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6279994&postcount=235)

Time for worker actions:

Mine: 6 turns
Farm: 8 turns
Road: 3 turns
Chop: 5 turns

Cost of builds:

Settler: 150
Worker: 90
Monument: 45
Axe: 52
Sword: 60
Warrior: 22
Barracks 75

Chop yield is 30 hammers, whipping yield is 45 hammers per pop AFAIK.

Income is 24 gpt, expenses are 6gpt (City maintenance), treasury 32g.

Tech costs:

Mysticism: 106
Writing: 256
Mathematics: 535
Sailing: 214
Pottery: 171 - discount for knowing both Fishing and Agriculture

An example: Myst -> Writing -> Math costs 106+256+535 = 897 beakers.

Income is 24 gpt from the next 5 turns then 31 gpt if we start working the 2nd gold mine immediately so:

32 + 5*(24-6) + x*(31-6) >= 897

or x*25 >= 897-122 => x=31

So the time to Math is about 36 turns. It will come a little sooner if we connect Timbuktu for additional 2gpt and we could have Iron city gold mine online in roughly 21-22 turns for say 4 gpt extra (8 gpt minus increased maintenance). The best time would still be around 33 turns from now.

Btw. this requires binary research since we loose 1 gpt by setting the tech slider to other values than 100%.

Have you tried if on an unmodified map? I wonder if the strange river interface in Worldbuilder is creating problems with your test

It works on an unmodified map! Must be a problem that's only present when you change the map mid game.

I'm also inclined to save the axe for a later attack. More so because I think we need the warrior outside Carthage to do some scouting. I suggest we send him along the south and west coast and let our work boat travel north and down along the east coast. There is one piece of information I forgot to mention in my turn log. I saw a Greek work boat pass by London and I guess that means that the peninsula to the west is small. Actually I was surprised that the AI would scout using a work boat but then later I realized that it was heading for the clam tile on the eastern side of Athens! This further implies that there is no passage south of Athens due to the tundra extending down to the ice. Thus it seems much better to go north with the WB where it can hopefully find a passage to the west coast.

It seems pretty common on Big and Small maps for one end of the continent to be icelocked and the other not, so it would probably work to send the workboat around the north and over to the east coast, if we aren't planning on sending a warrior. If the Greek workboat was spotted north of the peninsula, it tells us it is a short one, but not whether there are more islands to the west of it. It would still be useful to have a warrior from London help out with some scouting, either north or south along the west coast. And while the woodsman warrior is scouting along the southern coast, I think he needs to check that SW peninsula to make sure there aren't any strategic resources down there that Alex could hook up (probably not copper or iron, but maybe horses).

Please find a test game attached.

A funny thing happened right at the end of the build in that when I came out of World Builder, all the Civs declared war and you can see who they are and their score, much as happened in SGOTM05.

The save is a 4000 BC save as I am having trouble setting the details in the city screens. I need to do a bit more research on this, but I figured it might be better to have an imperfect product now rather then more detail later in the week, as Fred had suggested.

If you run into problems, please post as I have all the various saves still on my system in case I need to gin something up quick to fix a problem.

Have fun!!

I'm also inclined to save the axe for a later attack. More so because I think we need the warrior outside Carthage to do some scouting. I suggest we send him along the south and west coast and let our work boat travel north and down along the east coast.

And while the woodsman warrior is scouting along the southern coast, I think he needs to check that SW peninsula to make sure there aren't any strategic resources down there that Alex could hook up (probably not copper or iron, but maybe horses).

Workboat north sounds good.

I have a different proposal for our woodsman warrior. We should keep him on the forest hill as the lock down unit for Carthage and send our cr2 axe along the south coast and then to meet up with our axe outside Athens. Athens already has 4 archers and two fishing grounds so will be much earlier sending out a settler than Carthage. With both axes on the tile that the current axe is on, any units moving from Athens have to expose themselves on open ground to our two axes. Very good chances of success. We don't lose out on anything at Carthage, since one axe wouldn't be able to deal to a settler escort anyway, and a fortified woodsman warrior on a forest hill is still a handful for an attacking archer. The only issue would be if Alex sent his settler to the tundra.

Please find a test game attached

Thanks leif!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Professor
A great Christmas to all. I'll be back in a few days.

Have a great Christmas everyone. :xtree: :jesus:

Thanks leif!
You're welcome. :)

I thought about trying to change it so that you don't see the AI scores and then decided as a test game, this might actually be better as we can keep a loose track on them... :mischief:

Please let me know if it plays OK. :scan: And if not, what problems you encounter. :rolleyes: Thanks. :goodjob:

I have a different proposal for our woodsman warrior. We should keep him on the forest hill as the lock down unit for Carthage and send our cr2 axe along the south coast and then to meet up with our axe outside Athens. Athens already has 4 archers and two fishing grounds so will be much earlier sending out a settler than Carthage. With both axes on the tile that the current axe is on, any units moving from Athens have to expose themselves on open ground to our two axes. Very good chances of success. We don't lose out on anything at Carthage, since one axe wouldn't be able to deal to a settler escort anyway, and a fortified woodsman warrior on a forest hill is still a handful for an attacking archer. The only issue would be if Alex sent his settler to the tundra.

Have a great Christmas everyone. :xtree: :jesus:

This should probably work. It would probably also work for our CR2 axe to stay near Carthage, and kill one archer of a settler party when it's in the open, heal if needed, and then kill the other one in the city. CR2 axeman vs. archer in the open is 95% (according to the odds calculator you posted). CR2 axeman vs. unfortified archer in city is 93%. CR2 axeman vs. fortified archer in city is 71%. If axeman gets promotion after first battle, CR3 axeman vs. fortified archer in city is 95%.

If axeman near Athens fights alone: unpromoted axe vs. unpromoted archer is 95%. If axeman wins and promotes to CR1, CR1 axeman vs. unfortified archer in city is 71%.

Grouping the two axemen together gives a good chance of capturing a settler. Keeping them apart gives a good chance of preventing either AI from developing a second city and forcing them to build more settlers.

:xmascheers: Merry Christmas to all!

Here's a test game based on replay of leif's game. It doesn't match exactly in Timbuktu but it might do. Be careful not to confuse it with the real save!!

Test 1810 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Leif_Erikson_BC-1810.CivWarlordsSave)

Here's a test game based on replay of leif's game. It doesn't match exactly in Timbuktu but it might do. Be careful not to confuse it with the real save!!

Nice work Fred!! :goodjob:

It sure is pretty darn close. Very nice work!! :thumbsup:

Appreciate the test set up.

I played my scenario (Settler in London, whip monument in Tim, etc.) until Math researched in 910 BC. Really liked the results:

Have 4 workers, 4 axes, and 4 swords, 4 warriors , and 1 wk boat
Whipped first sword in Tim in 1150, and it has achieved two CR promotions
3 other swords with one CR
Have built road all the way to Carthage and gotten gold mine operating in Iron City
No problem connecting iron to Tim via road to river
No problems with barbs threatening cities; no barb archers seen; but did get careless and allow a barb to use the road to Carthage to sneak attack and kill both my road-construction workers as they were returning to Tim to pre-chop. (Still have one chopping in Tim that I got from converted settler.)
Oracle built by AI in 1060
Accumulated 14 of 30 Great General points, from a combination of barbs and Carthaginian units -- Carthage first sent out two warriors and a settler, later three archers towards Tim, while Athens never moved a unit out of the city. (It would be helpful to know why this difference in AI tactics -- quessing it has to do with a warrior, rather than an axe, within city limits.)
May not be very predictive, but Carthage is down to just three unpromoted defending archers and would probably fall fairly soon
Athens has apparently built barracks and has 7 archers, several promoted, along with both settler and worker (both have remained in city for many turns)

If I were to continue play from here, I'd withdraw units from Athens and hope that would lure units out of city, now that I have swords arriving.

Found that supply costs delayed research more than I anticipated, which convinces me that I was correct to work gold in York immediately -- most of the time with the rice, allowing London to use the cows, which speeds settler several turns.

Christmas is coming -- happy holidays to all -- and it will be a few days before I will have any time to get a screen shot up.

Leaving for home now...

Hope someone will try alternative approaches as well for comparison.

What about turn set length? I was thinking it might be better to go back to the normal 20 turn sets now that all ancient resources are discovered. That would also be right after settling iron city.

:xmastree:

Merry Christmas !

:xmascheers:

Hm......Lots to read.......:coffee:

Merry Christmas to you too, Professor and to the rest of the XTeam crew :xmascheers:.

I guess you must be busy stuffing the kangaroo for the Christmas dinner. You do need quite a lot of apples for that...

I will also be away between the 24th and 28th.

I've eaten Kangaroo a few times. I quite like it. Not for Christmas though! Our Christmas traditions I think come from England - probably very similar to the ones practiced in North America. Turkey, ham and lamb are the meats eaten usually...

This is proving very entertaining guys, even without taking part or being able to contribute much :goodjob:

I've eaten Kangaroo a few times. I quite like it. Not for Christmas though!
Thankfully, you didn't say it tasted like Chicken... :lol: :lol: :lol:
That's what many here says about whatever they eat, that most people wouldn't consider eating? :hmm:

Our Christmas traditions I think come from England - probably very similar to the ones practiced in North America. Turkey, ham and lamb are the meats eaten usually...
I think it is interesting all the different traditions that are observed. Our family tries to live up to our Swedish heritage with Swedish sausage, meatballs, ham and special breads, mostly on Christmas Eve. A lot of work, but more fun to eat... :drool: :yumyum: :cheers:

Hope everyone had nice holidays. :)



OK, I've read and I like getting the settler earlier out of London.

Tentative plan:

RESEARCH: Myst -> writing -> Math

York Workers: Move immediately to mine gold hill, then road towards iron city site. After that, go road to the river to connect Timbuktu.

Timbuktu workers: Road towards Hannibal until border expansion, then improve tiles in fat cross.

London: Finish Axe -> settler -> rax

York: finish WB -> warrior -> ? 2nd wb or rax?

Timbuktu: finish worker -> monument -> rax

In my test games, axes near AIs capitals caused them to go on archer building sprees. Do we want to pull the axe from Athens now (hoping they'll make a settler and send some archer escorts) or wait until closer to attacking?

Timbuktu workers: Road towards Hannibal until border expansion, then improve tiles in fat cross.

Using Pete's test game as a model, the Timbuktu workers should start prechopping forests after building the road so the sword army can come as quickly as possible after Math is done. Improvements in Tim wont be too useful as long as Tim is being whipped for units.

In my test games, axes near AIs capitals caused them to go on archer building sprees. Do we want to pull the axe from Athens now (hoping they'll make a settler and send some archer escorts) or wait until closer to attacking?

Pete's test seemed to confirm this. It might be best to leave the axemen outside of enemy borders and in position to prevent the AI from settling on top of the irons. Axemen can attack settler parties if out in the open. The CR2 axeman near Carthage can even attack an archer in a settled second city.

I'll try to post a screen shot soon, including my road network (the layout can make a turn or two difference in travel time). I went SW from Tim first to make access to an ivory city easier in the future by a settler, which I think we should soon build in Tim.

Suggest wkbt, warrior, and then a worker in York, as continue to just use gold and rice there.

Important to move sentry axe to Tim and replace with warrior from London, keeping new axe in neighborhood.

Need to work on road to Iron City and to river concurrently.

Most of the barb warriors appeared the southwest of Tim, but that could have been entirely random. Must protect roading workers from them, so when possible try to find them before they find you.

Would urge rrau to play the 1810 test posted above.

Well, I think I've re-learned how to post a screen shot. Now how do I do the 'show' and 'hide' bit?

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa77/wasp3/061810test.jpg

OK. Playing test.

Well I played the 1810BC save through to Maths following the same details as CP and I think it is the way to go. Got maths at 940BC. This might be one turn too slow cos I didn't micromanage the research slider?

Once I got to maths I continued playing (very sloppily) just to get a feel for when the AI capitals would fall...

Took Carthage with 6 swords from timbuktu around turn 115 (lost one sword). Took Athens with 7 swords and 2 axes on turn 134 (lost 3 swords, 1 axe).

With chops around London and Timbuktu and whipping in Timbuktu we get our army together very quickly. I was slowed down by a lack of roads as I traversed the eastern army from the capture of Carthage over to Athens.

Barbs archers started coming with warriors to enter our territory around turn 90-100.

CP, to use the show/hide you use the "" code or click the SPOIL icon at the top of the menu as you type your post.

[SPOILER]http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/114316/spoil.JPG

What is the road layout we are going for?

What do we build in York after wkbt -> warrior?

CP, I have a question: How did you road towards Timbuktu? I didn't get as far with the 2 workers and warrior escort (as your pic - stopped one tile earlier) before I had to send the workers back. They arrived at the turn of border expansion and I whipped the rax same turn, so there wasn't time to do the prechopping. Did you separate the workers and let each one work a tile and leapfrog down, with the warrior sticking with just one of them rather than keeping them stacked? It only takes 3 turns to road, so I was wasting one worker turn by keeping them stacked and with the warrior escort.

In my test I built rax in York after warrior then swords.

I kept playing Leif's game, too and had eliminated both AI by turn 134 also, but in the opposite order - Athens then Timbuktu. I tried pulling out the sentry axes and that let them settle other towns I had to take, too and I lost both sentry axes to counter attacks by archers trying to capture those towns. I have a feeling that by waiting until we're ready to attack with the swords then pulling out it would be better. That way there'd be a stack of units to get the settler and escort and could protect wounded units.

CP, I have a question: How did you road towards Timbuktu? Not sure exactly what you are asking. Since I captured a settler coming out of Carthage (protected by only two warriors -- interested if you and/or JT had similar experience), I was able to road a bit farther than would have without this fortuitous extra worker.

That's what I was asking. An extra worker would make a big difference. Plan to play tonight after work.

Hope everyone had nice holidays. :)



OK, I've read and I like getting the settler earlier out of London.

Tentative plan:

RESEARCH: Myst -> writing -> Math

York Workers: Move immediately to mine gold hill, then road towards iron city site. After that, go road to the river to connect Timbuktu.

Timbuktu workers: Road towards Hannibal until border expansion, then improve tiles in fat cross.

London: Finish Axe -> settler -> rax

York: finish WB -> warrior -> ? 2nd wb or rax?

Timbuktu: finish worker -> monument -> rax

In my test games, axes near AIs capitals caused them to go on archer building sprees. Do we want to pull the axe from Athens now (hoping they'll make a settler and send some archer escorts) or wait until closer to attacking?

Plan looks good.

Regarding the York workers I would put high priority on getting the gold mine at the iron city built ASAP even if it means delaying the road to the river.

In York we could build a 2nd warrior and use him to scout the west coast looking for possible ways off the island. I suggest we send the work boat north to explore the north and the east coast because there is no passage south of our continent and thus a lot less to explore before the wb would be forced to turn around.

I don't think we can afford to pull back our axe near Athens because that might enable the AI to start improving the copper. We could pull back a little from Carthage because we have a warrior there.

If a settler party leaves either of the cities it might be best to use the axe to block the nearby iron tiles thus preventing the city from being settled there.


Well I played the 1810BC save through to Maths following the same details as CP and I think it is the way to go. Got maths at 940BC. This might be one turn too slow cos I didn't micromanage the research slider?

If we don't use binary research i.e. science slider at either 0% or 100% we loose 1 gpt due to round off. So the best approach is to run at 100% science until the treasury is empty and then run 0% science for a while (say 4-5 turns) to fill it up and then go back to 100% science.

We can just move the sentry axe N of London to Tim and keep the new one at home, while sending the present MP warrior to the hill the sentry now occupies.

I think this is a good setup for barb defense.

Good luck rrau :thumbsup:

Regarding the York workers I would put high priority on getting the gold mine at the iron city built ASAP even if it means delaying the road to the river. There is a trade-off here that I wrestled with. I rejected going for the mine ASAP because, without the road to the river, I wouldn't be able to get an early sword in Tim (and that sword did turn out to be really useful), so I split the workers after building the road to the junction point -- then sending one to build towards the river (accompanied by a warrior) and the other towards the iron (accompanied by an axe). My settler did arrive before the road was completed, but only just before, and then I mined the gold.

In York we could build a 2nd warrior and use him to scout the west coast looking for possible ways off the island. Until we've got Carthage captured and producing, knowledge of the west coast will not be of primary value, and by then our most wounded sword might well be healed and available for exploring (and already in the west). Another worker, on the other hand, will have all kinds of immediate uses. So I'd suggest we build that in York, unless a warrior is needed for defense. I suggest we send the work boat north to explore the north and the east coast because there is no passage south of our continent and thus a lot less to explore before the wb would be forced to turn around. COLOR="Blue"]Don't we want to make sure that there is not an island chain at the end of our western penninsula first? [/COLOR]

I don't think we can afford to pull back our axe near Athens because that might enable the AI to start improving the copper. We could pull back a little from Carthage because we have a warrior there. Agree, let's not risk a copper mine in Athens until we have swords ready to cut down archers sent out of the city. However, my experience in Carthage is that the AI sent 2 warriors and a settler north towards the hill when I pulled all units out of the orange. That is what we want to happen as soon as there is an axe in place to dispense with the warriors and gain a worker

If a settler party leaves either of the cities it might be best to use the axe to block the nearby iron tiles thus preventing the city from being settled there. Yes, but if the settler party is 2 warriors, settling anywhere would be no problem -- we can raze the city immediately with one axe. Our intent should be to position our axe so that it can kill both warriors before a settlement is founded.

If we don't use binary research i.e. science slider at either 0% or 100% we loose 1 gpt due to round off. So the best approach is to run at 100% science until the treasury is empty and then run 0% science for a while (say 4-5 turns) to fill it up and then go back to 100% science.

I think this is a good setup for barb defense.

Good luck rrau :thumbsup: Indeed!

How many turns is rrau playing?

You should keep the Athens axe on the forest it is on. For Carthage you should keep the warrior on the forest hill and the axe can float around the northwest of Carthage just outside the fatcross to wait for units/settlers.

Good luck and may your workers + warrior escort be safe!

She can play to Math as far as I'm concerned, but we might want a pause to discuss after Writing comes in.

How many turns is rrau playing?

You should keep the Athens axe on the forest it is on. For Carthage you should keep the warrior on the forest hill and the axe can float around the northwest of Carthage just outside the fatcross to wait for units/settlers. Try that first, but I think you may need to move the warrior to the SW for a few turns (but not enough to improve a resource) to induce the warrior/settler group to exit the city. They moved north in my game, and I think a worker (plus promoting the axe) is worth the risk.

Good luck and may your workers + warrior escort be safe!

Remember, whip worker with one turn to go so monument completes in one turn after mysticism is in :)

Cactus Pete, what was the optimal build order for Timbuktu? Only one sword before barracks finishes (as soon as we connect iron)? all forest chops are after math? when does barracks complete?

The settler party moved north in my test game too even with the warrior fortified on the forested hill.

How many turns is rrau playing?
Haven't had time to play test much, so I am not sure of the time lines at the moment. About how long to Math? Thought we had agreed to return to the 20-turn per set routine? :confused:

Received an email from Gator. The surgery went well and he is recovering fine. Even got to take a stroll outside. He sounds in good spirits but has some rehab and recovery to attend to before he can return. :thumbsup:

Haven't had time to play test much, so I am not sure of the time lines at the moment. About how long to Math? Thought we had agreed to return to the 20-turn per set routine? :confused:


I haven't played a sgotm before, so I'm not sure what our norm is when it comes to length of turns. Maths comes in around 30-33 turns.

I remember now that Fred mentioned we should move to 20 turns per set also.

Either way is fine with me, you can decide capt'n leif :) :salute:

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_BC1210_01.CivWarlordsSave)


1810bc (0) wake fortified axe to N and start him towards Timbuktu. Start warrior from London to take his spot.
1780bc (1) London: Axe -> settler. Axe fortifies. York workers to gold tile.
1750bc (2) Axeman on way to Timbuktu ends up next to strength 3 scout of Alex's.
1720bc (3) Axe kills scout. Whip worker in Timbuktu. Alex sending settler with 2 archers by the axe. Only 59% chance of winning and would probably be killed next turn. Wait until the archers are in clear tiles not a hill or a wooded hill.
1690bc (4) Learn myst and start writing. ONly 19% chance of winning against alex's archers this turn
1660bc (5) workers finish gold hill and move to start roading. Research to 0% to rebuild treasury.
1630bc (6) Axe wins against archer (hurt pretty bad, though). Restart research at 100%.
1600bc (7) Axe promoted to strength one to continue attack - wins but is at 2.6 and captured settler but ends up in the open next to a strength 3 archer (unpromoted). I hope I don't lose both the axe and the worker.
1570bc (8) York finishes WB and starts warrior. WB heads north. Axe survived and got a cover promotion and now has 91% chance against the archer in the open....Wins. Was going to start worker north but saw barb warrior first step so retreated.
1540bc (9) Another archer next to axe, but only 75% chance of winning so no attack this turn.
1510bc (10) Axe had 90% chance against archer so killed it. Warrior woodsman from Timbuktu has scouted another border suggestive of another Greek city. :mad: Research to 0. (should have done it last turn I think)
1480bc (11) warrior id's Sparta with 1 archer and 2 warriors and no border expansion yet. He'll head back to Carthage after this. The Axe still has a promotion pending that is unused and is healing.
1450bc (12) York finished warrior and starts on an axe. (different than planned, but I want another axe to get down Athens so the experienced axe can go take out sparta). Research turned back on to 100%
1420bc (13) Not much.
1390bc (14) Start workers back to Timbuktu.
1360bc (15) Carthage dropped to pop 4.
1330bc (16) research back to 0% (I think hinduism was founded this turn)
1300bc (17) Not much.
1270bc (18) Research to 100%
1240bc (19) Not much.
1210bc (20) Ironsite founded. :sad: Unfortunately, I don't think the river road connected Timbuktu. I went back and it looks like I quit the river road one tile too soon. I'd planned to whip the rax after the chop completed and send the extra to a sword next turn, but that's not happening. The chop looks like it will complete the rax, but I didn't whip. I did go ahead and stop the other worker chopping on another forest so you don't have to do that, or it would have chopped in 2 turns. If you want to chop one more turn, you can restart him next turn. Wish I'd stopped the chop, but by the time I'd moved the settler and escort, the automatic chopping had already happened.

There's a barb warrior running around somewhere between Athens and Ironsite so I roaded a couple tiles by Athens to help our units in the future after Athens is ours.

The workboat hasn't found anything interesting yet.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/AngelSpice2/southernarea0000.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/AngelSpice2/Northernarea0000.jpg

:salute:
I hope that you have experienced, thus far, the ideas that are generated by batting things around a bit. As we get further into the game, the situation becomes a bit more complex and there is often a need for more discussion. Bringing the turn set lengths down a bit allows us to more closely examine things and, for me personally, allows me to better play within the teams concept, if you will. :mischief:

That being said, I hope each of us knows that we can stop at any time during a set and ask for advice and/or assistance, should we feel the need? :)

:clap: Nice work rrau!! Didn't expect you to finish so soon!! :)

:hmm: A second Greek city. Nice place to pick up a promotion? :hammer:

Need to have a look... :mischief:

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Jimmy Thunder - On Deck
Leif
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg
rrau - just played! :rockon:
Gator - recovering and, we hope, comfortable. :please:

Thanks rrau, good job.

I especially like the axe near Athens that has scalped three archers and taken a greek settler :goodjob:

Bummer about the road network.

I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron. Definitely save the rest of the chops for after Math.

We could change production in Timbuktu to worker for one turn, then switch back to barracks for two turns while it grows to size five, then switch back to finish worker. We need to keep barracks in the build queue so there is something useful to build in Timbuktu before swords while we grow it.

The workers at ironsite can improve gold there.

Our CR2 axe by carthage could possibly be the one to sack Sparta, he can get there in 8 turns (we lose the chance to kill a settler escort by moving the CR2 axe but the warrior on the forest hill can still prevent workers coming out).

I noticed that London isn't working the gold but the freshwater lake instead(eek! hopefully it hasn't accidently been set like that for many turns?).

A tip for workboat scouting; sometimes you have to avoid taking the fast way around the corner of the island and instead use an extra movement point going to the corner tile in order to see if a pre-astronomy coast passage exists.

Nice job with the Greeks rrau! I hope we can put that captured worker to good use. And it doesn't look like Sparta will be much of a problem for our promoted axemen.

I think our main focus now needs to be getting Math as quickly as possible. I'm guessing that the city governor switched from the gold mine to the lake when the settler finished. I guess we have to make sure that the governor doesn't switch to a bad tile whenever the city finishes a build or increases its population.

Where exactly are our three western workers right now?

I guess we have to make sure that the governor doesn't switch to a bad tile whenever the city finishes a build or increases its population.

I thought they only switched after city growth....:wallbash:

Where exactly are our three western workers right now? 2 just finished the road to Ironsite and one is down by Athens......roading a couple tiles here and there.

Reviewing the save again and comparing it to some of the tests i've played (which isn't exactly fair since I could keep replaying the tests to get everything lined up perfect) we did miss out in a few areas due to not working the right tiles (city governor presumably).

I think we might have been 50 beakers ahead, have 1 turn to go on the London barracks and already have a sword in play by 1210BC (ironsite settled in 1300BC) in the best test game :(

I just wanted to make a post to us all stessing the importance of micromanagement, especially in these early turns - because I know how easy it is to miss things or make mistakes {have PLENTY of experience with that :)}

We probably have to check every city every turn to make sure everything is optimised, and need to vote out that city governor!! (or worse :ar15: )

I just wanted to make a post to us all stessing the importance of micromanagement, especially in these early turns - because I know how easy it is to miss things or make mistakes {have PLENTY of experience with that :)}

We probably have to check every city every turn to make sure everything is optimised, and need to vote out that city governor!! (or worse :ar15: )

Yes, little things have a cummulative effect that's often large.

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?

Looking quickly at the save, would like to see discussion on these four topics:

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?
The road rrau built to t
he river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.).

I think in our test game everything was the same, it was actually the road south of Timbuktu towards Carthage that connected Timbuktu to the trade network rather than the short road east of London. (see below the road network from your test game)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/114316/timbu_connect.jpg

To connect in our actual game we can either extend the road east of London by another tile, or extend the road south of Timbuktu for another 2 tiles. I suggested Timbuktu because the worker moves are less urgent there and the road is useful for moving swords soon afterwards.

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?

I think JT is right here. We can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and use the York workers to improve the gold mine ASAP. As far as I can count it will take 5 turns to connect this way - only one turn more than connecting to the other river by extending the road from London by one tile.

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

I guess you mean send the York warrior to the peninsula? I think we should do that. Where to send the wb depends on where we plan to build our second wb. If we can take Carthage soon we could build a wb there for exploring the west coast. If not it might make sense to send our current wb to the west coast and build another wb in York to explore the east coast.

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

We need the border expansion so either monument or library. I guess we can get the library soon enough to get some beakers for our hammers even in case 1 where a library would otherwise be wasted hammers. When Math is researched in about 15 turns we should be able to chop the two forests and get the library built.

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

As JT suggests we can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and get the trade route in 5 turns using two workers without delaying the gold mine. I think we can also get the trade route by building road on the tile adjacent to the start of the river east of London and it requires 4 turns with both workers or 5 turns using one worker.

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

No rush as long as we can prevent the horse tile from being pastured. That will take quite a while I think since the Greek workers are locked down inside Athens. Sparta could be a decent city with horses and fish. Considering the maintenance it might be bad to keep it.

We could change production in Timbuktu to worker for one turn, then switch back to barracks for two turns while it grows to size five, then switch back to finish worker. We need to keep barracks in the build queue so there is something useful to build in Timbuktu before swords while we grow it.

What about diverting that chop into a settler instead of a worker? There is still that big northern forest that can be chopped either for all gold or for the Oracle+gold and we'll need a settler up there. Following our sword army with a settler would be a nice shot in the arm to our teching either way. My guess is that CRC completed the Oracle on turn 105, and that we have a decent window beyond that to build it, with only three AI left that aren't fighting for their lives.

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

There is a warrior in York, correct? Yes, send the warrior to explore. He's not needed for MP or barb defense.

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

Yes, barracks wont be useful until we find the other 3 AI.

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

I think roading one more tile should do the trick. In your test game, it looks like your road east of London was also one short of making a connection, and that it was the southern road that made it. So yes, let's split the workers and finish the eastern road. If the Greek worker moves north to the gold, can he shave off a turn for the gold mine?

I'd keep the eastern workers on their prechopping work so that Timbuktu's swords can come as quickly as possible. (Unless they can build the road and be back in time to prechop everything).

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

We can't see much of the land around Sparta but I'm worried that keeping Sparta is going to be a financial problem. I agree that we can delay razing it, but it's not a clear-cut keeper like Carthage and Athens. It depends on what our explorers find. If we need Astronomy, Sparta may be more harm than good.

I think JT is right here. We can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and use the York workers to improve the gold mine ASAP. As far as I can count it will take 5 turns to connect this way - only one turn more than connecting to the other river by extending the road from London by one tile.

Will there be any delay to prechopping and chopping the remaining forests near Timbuktu if we send those workers to build the southern road?

I guess you mean send the York warrior to the peninsula? I think we should do that. Where to send the wb depends on where we plan to build our second wb. If we can take Carthage soon we could build a wb there for exploring the west coast. If not it might make sense to send our current wb to the west coast and build another wb in York to explore the east coast.

If the warrior finds more islands along the west coast, workboat should certainly explore that direction. The eastern ocean might be completely devoid of islands, but we know the western ocean is not. One of our warriors in Tim can start exploring the east coast.

Will there be any delay to prechopping and chopping the remaining forests near Timbuktu if we send those workers to build the southern road?

One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.


If the warrior finds more islands along the west coast, workboat should certainly explore that direction. The eastern ocean might be completely devoid of islands, but we know the western ocean is not. One of our warriors in Tim can start exploring the east coast.

I think the exploration is going too slow and I would like to build another wb somewhere. If we build it in York then the existing wb should head to the east coast and if we build it in Carthage the existing wb should explore the west coast. I don't think speculations about islands being more or less likely to appear on either side is helpful - the bottom line is that we don't know and we need to explore both sides as fast as possible. Actually we do know that islands are very common on this type of map so it's very unlikely that either side should have no islands.

What about diverting that chop into a settler instead of a worker? There is still that big northern forest that can be chopped either for all gold or for the Oracle+gold and we'll need a settler up there.

Settling the ivory city is another option. It has 8 forests inside the fat cross.

I think the exploration is going too slow and I would like to build another wb somewhere. If we build it in York then the existing wb should head to the east coast and if we build it in Carthage the existing wb should explore the west coast. I don't think speculations about islands being more or less likely to appear on either side is helpful - the bottom line is that we don't know and we need to explore both sides as fast as possible. Actually we do know that islands are very common on this type of map so it's very unlikely that either side should have no islands.
I agree with this completely! :goodjob:
I think the northern Workboat, unless it finds a way west on those corners, should head east and a new one built in York that heads south and west. If it finds nothing, then it can be used on the Fish at Iron City.

There are two Warriors with the Axe in Tim. One could escort the Workers as needed while the other scouts to the east.

Settling the ivory city is another option. It has 8 forests inside the fat cross.
I really like this option as it not only provides for the Gold production we would like to try out (plenty of forests to chop) but also gives us War Elephants and is a central place that helps us control the continent.

On connecting Tim to our western cities, looking at the map both rivers have unexplored tiles next to them, one on the northern river and two on the southern. Don't unexplored tiles keep commerce from passing through? The other reason I thought of has been mentioned and that is that we should road the one tile further as the one we have built the road on does not say that there is fresh water there?

I also agree that Sparta is not an immediate threat. We should get a unit down there within the next turn set (Worker = about 20 to 25 turns?) to ensure that those Horses don't get hooked up. Chariots versus Axes in Warlords is a losing proposition for us and makes our Axes ineffective. :cringe:

Is Construction the next tech after Math? Cats would be a welcome addition.
:trouble:

The other thought that is in the back of my head is that while we are seeing the civs around us as weak and vulnerable, somewhere out there are three more civs that we need to find, assess and figure out how to deal with. If they know each other, they are teching and, perhaps, trading. We do need to find them as soon as possible. I think we need to discuss, perhaps after CP's set, whether we head directly for Optics so we can send out Caravels to find them. At that point, I think we will be committed to Astronomy (which requires Calendar as well as Optics) This means that during CP's set, we should be reconning to the maximum extent possible and hoping for a culture bridge... :mischief:

Is Construction the next tech after Math? Cats would be a welcome addition.

I think we can capture both Carthage and Athens without cats so I would prefer to research Pottery and maybe also Sailing first. We need Pottery to build granaries in our food rich cities (Timbuktu, Carthage and Athens) to double the hammer output from whipping. Later we also need it for cottaging when our cities grow bigger. Sailing is something we need to connect Athens and Carthage immediately when captured (provided that we have explored both the east and the west coast) and it's also a tech we need in either of the cases (Astronomy or not)

I think we can capture both Carthage and Athens without cats so I would prefer to research Pottery and maybe also Sailing first.
Interesting idea and good reasons.

Looking at the map, Carthage should hook itself up once it comes out of resistance as the river from our Capital reaches the sea within its boundaries. We could almost hook up Athens by using the Worker there to road towards Iron City, which would surely be done before we actually capture it? I think we would need a guard for him though.

Without having a complete picture of the lay of the land, it might be nice to have Construction in our pocket in case anyone comes to visit? Not a real good reason as the AI are so poor at amphibious landings? :blush:

Another good reason for Sailing is to build a Trireme or two to protect our Fish resource at Iron City from Barbs. Also, should we find a passage to somewhere else, Sailing will be needed. :hammer: Pottery and Sailing are fine by me.

Construction is only useful now if there is a land bridge. We'll probably end up researching it while we're waiting for great scientists. I don't see Sailing as a big priority right now unless there's a land bridge. Workboats are more efficient water scouts than galleys, and it wont take much effort to connect our cities with roads (we need to do it anyway). Pottery will be useful for all sorts of reasons. We couldn't go wrong there. Then, if we're anticipating a long game, we need to cultivate a GP farm (Athens?) with the GLib and NatEpic. We can throw in Masonry when we're ready to use stone.

Fine to send wb to the east coast if we build another in York now.

"I think in our test game everything was the same, it was actually the road south of Timbuktu towards Carthage that connected Timbuktu to the trade network rather than the short road east of London. (see below the road network from your test game)" Sorry, I think I missed this and gave rrau bad advice. I remember being surprised that the connection occurred from a tile that did not get a commerce from the river. I think I must have connected the other road to the river on almost, if not exactly, the same turn and not paid any attention to it. Also, thought warrior, typed settler -- senility?

Excellent discussion. Isn't Masonry required for Construction?

Busy day, but I will try to get a plan of action posted before I turn in tonight.

senility?
No worse than anyone else? :rolleyes:

Excellent discussion. Isn't Masonry required for Construction?
Yes, Masonry is required for Construction. ;)

I propose that I play until Math is researched, post a save in the thread, and continue to some agreed-upon point after discussion. Plan:

Builds:
London – barracks, sword
York – finish axe, build wkbt for one turn until size 3, and then switch to worker until verified that there is island off western peninsula (if not, continue worker; if so, complete wkbt
Tim – settler one turn, barracks, whip (with two citizens) sword and part of another to be sent immediately towards Carthage
Ironsite – library

Worker actions:
Tim workers -- “One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.” Not sure match with Math will be so perfect, but this is the proposed approach

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

Athens worker -- worker (now inside city’s culture) builds north to complete road

Unit actions:
Warrior in York to end of Peninsula and back
Axe in Carthage to hill NW and outside of city once support from a Tim sword is imminent
Rest of units to defend improvements and protect workers, exploring when safe to do so

Query: Will a warrior be sufficient to discourage a Sparta horse pasture?

Tim workers -- “One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.” Not sure match with Math will be so perfect, but this is the proposed approach

No, hopefully Math will come 1-2 turns faster i.e. in 13-14 turns. It depends on how unit costs increase and how fast we get the trade route (2gpt) and the gold mine (6gpt). I still think the extra gold is worth a very slight delay in the chops.

Query: Will a warrior be sufficient to discourage a Sparta horse pasture?

Yes, the warrior posted on the hill outside Carthage was enough to keep the worker inside the city.

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

When Math is in we should also consider chopping the library in the Iron city.

Remember to MM London and Timbuktu. I think it's better to work the farm and the bananas in Tim compared to the forests since food is as good as hammers (with slavery) and we get some extra gold.

I think we should continue the binary research. The 1 gpt earned is still 3% of our total income.

I propose that I play until Math is researched, post a save in the thread, and continue to some agreed-upon point after discussion.
Yes, this is probably a good idea. Plan looks good. :goodjob:

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

Athens worker -- worker (now inside city’s culture) builds north to complete road

Unit actions:
Warrior in York to end of Peninsula and back
The Warrior from York, after his recon, may be needed in the south to cover the Iron Site Workers roading towards Athens. We're a bit thin for units to protect the Workers and watch the cities. :cringe:

"Remember to MM London and Timbuktu. I think it's better to work the farm and the bananas in Tim compared to the forests since food is as good as hammers (with slavery) and we get some extra gold." I plan to work the forests until barracks so I can whip swords at earliest date.

"I think we should continue the binary research. The 1 gpt earned is still 3% of our total income." Will do.

"When Math is in we should also consider chopping the library in the Iron city."
Want to get swords out first to take Athens.

Plan to play in about 8 hours. Will post when I begin.

Good luck!

For Carthage, the warrior that has been used to protect the Timbuktu workers could move down after the road is completed to be used as bait before the first sword arives. I've found that if your sword or axe are not an immediate threat to the city (ie. three tiles from the capital), then archers (in excess of the 2-3 garrisoned in the city) will come out of Carthage to attack a warrior if he is on a tile with no defence bonus. This could be an easy way to get a promotion for the sword.

My feeling is the same as Fred's that the 3food1commerce tiles in Timbuktu are the best to be worked, but if the forests work better for the immediate future builds then I guess you should use them.

If you send a warrior to shut down any workers at Sparta you should park him just outside the city border rather than right next to the city where the AI sometimes will attack you from the safety of the city.

Good luck :goodjob:

Good luck CP!

Beware of the barb warrior north of Athens that rrau mentioned in the turn log. He might be a nuisance to our road crews.

Warrior bait sounds like a good idea, and I will try it (also in Athens?) if still playing when swords available.

Playing now.

The suspense is killin' me...


:twitch:

Paused at Math after rather uneventful play that went pretty much as planned. Here is my log:

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT 1210BC -


1210BC: Initiate plan

1150: Nothing on the corners, wb sets course for our northern coast

1120: Greek wb spotted north of York, heading south (suggests no northern passage)
Warrior finds nothing west of the peninsula, building worker in York

1060: Trade route to Tim completed

1030: Gold mine completed at Ironsite
A settler built in Athens

1000: Barracks completed in Tim, sword begun

985: Gibbon rates us the least advanced civilization; an unknown is rated #1, Carthage #2, and the Greeks #5 just ahead of us
Barracks completes in London, switch to sword
Whip sword in Tim
Two Greek workers venture outside of Athens without escort, move to cut them off from city and capture

970: Sword whipped in Tim moves south
Capture both Greek workers, will use one as bait once sword nears Athens

955: Worker completes in York, continue wb now for Ironsite fish

910: 2 archers and 2 warriors but no workers in Sparta, which has horses, fish, and grassland cows

895: Math is learned (choose Pottery just to continue – need to discuss Oracle again)
Archers move north out of Carthage, presumably after warrior bait
London completes sword (moves S) and begins another

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?

Here is my save (it's not posted at central control): http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Sgotm_BC-0895.CivWarlordsSave

Looks good to me CP :)

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!

1120: Greek wb spotted north of York, heading south (suggests no northern passage)

Another likely explanation is that the Greek wb reached the cultural borders of Carthage and was forced to return since there is no open borders between Greece and Carthage. Actually I think this is the most likely explanation considering the timing: I saw the Greek wb near York in the middle of my turn set approximately 40 turns ago. If there was no northern passage it should have returned much sooner.

955: Worker completes in York, continue wb now for Ironsite fish

There are still a couple of tiles on the west coast that it could explore - but most likely there is no way to leave our continent from the west. With the other wb continuing to explore the east coast we should know within 20-30 turns if there is way off our continent.

895: Math is learned (choose Pottery just to continue – need to discuss Oracle again)

Polytheism and Priesthood can be researched in 14 turns and we also have the option of building 2 swords in Tim and then a settler using chops. Distance to ivory city site is 3-4 turns for the settler. I see two problems with this. First, I'm not sure if 3 swords will be enough to conquer Carthage even with support of the two CR2 axes and secondly I'm reluctant to divert a large worker force to chopping the Oracle (needs 5 chops = 25 worker turns) since that will slow down the development of Timbuktu and the Iron city.

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?

Perhaps a granary in York? Provided that we go for Pottery next. If we capture Sparta now we would be forced to raze since it will drain our economy. Waiting might be OK although it will create extra unhappiness in Athens.

Looks good to me CP :)

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!

Happy New Year to you MP and to the rest of the team as well! Still 10½ hours left in Denmark and I haven't had a drop of alcohol yet :coffee: . That will probably change during the evening :cheers:

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!
:newyear:
Best wishes for the New Year. Hard to believe you are already there when I just got out of bed... :xmascheers:

Happy New Year to you MP and to the rest of the team as well! Still 10½ hours left in Denmark and I haven't had a drop of alcohol yet :coffee: . That will probably change during the evening :cheers:
Time to break out the Champagne? Less than 10 hours now... :mischief:


There are still a couple of tiles on the west coast that it could explore - but most likely there is no way to leave our continent from the west. With the other wb continuing to explore the east coast we should know within 20-30 turns if there is way off our continent.
There is a bit of risk in this as we saw in the last SGOTM on the Greek side of our island. I see two possible ways that I think we need to check; near the cow island and all the way down south. You may be right, but I think we should make the effort to be sure that a culture bridge is not possible? :scan:

Polytheism and Priesthood can be researched in 14 turns and we also have the option of building 2 swords in Tim and then a settler using chops. Distance to ivory city site is 3-4 turns for the settler. I see two problems with this. First, I'm not sure if 3 swords will be enough to conquer Carthage even with support of the two CR2 axes and secondly I'm reluctant to divert a large worker force to chopping the Oracle (needs 5 chops = 25 worker turns) since that will slow down the development of Timbuktu and the Iron city.
After spending some time with the map, I agree with most of this. Pottery should be next for Granaries and to build Cottages. I've been thinking of city placement as well and would sure like to know whether a passage exists or if we need Astronomy? I can think of several different ways to lay out cities depending upon whether they are needed long term (Astronomy needed) or shorter term. I don't think Ivory City will support itself financially without including the two Flood Plain tiles with Cottages.

After Pottery, it depends upon our priorities. To grow cities, I think we need Sailing and Calender. To explore, we may need to head for Optics, which also requires Sailing? We will also need Masonry to get to Construction?

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?
I think it is too early to keep Sparta as it is going to drag our economy.
On ending your turn set, I cannot give you a goal as we need to discuss research objectives some more. We are currently on turn 107. If you play 13 more, that evens us out at turn 120. I would give you that as a stopping point right now. Let's see what discussion follows? Are you pressed for time to complete the set?

:newyear:
Best wishes for the New Year. Indeed!

There is a bit of risk in this as we saw in the last SGOTM on the Greek side of our island. I see two possible ways that I think we need to check; near the cow island and all the way down south. You may be right, but I think we should make the effort to be sure that a culture bridge is not possible? :scan: The cows will get checked by the wb, and we can use a land unit for the rest.

After spending some time with the map, I agree with most of this. Pottery should be next for Granaries and to build Cottages. I've been thinking of city placement as well and would sure like to know whether a passage exists or if we need Astronomy? I can think of several different ways to lay out cities depending upon whether they are needed long term (Astronomy needed) or shorter term. I don't think Ivory City will support itself financially without including the two Flood Plain tiles with Cottages. We will want to have WE's, so isn't it a matter of when, not if, we settle there? We will start to lose hammers put into the Tim settler fairly soon. I anticipate whipping it and sending to the ivory. Is it a reasonable possibility to capture Athens and use chops for Stonehenge in the ivory city to generate gold?

After Pottery, it depends upon our priorities. To grow cities, I think we need Sailing and Calender. To explore, we may need to head for Optics, which also requires Sailing? We will also need Masonry to get to Construction? With Pottery, Metal Working from the Oracle would speed us to Optics. Even if we get beat to it, we would gain gold for the hammers invested. I'm very uncertain about it. Like to see more discussion of risk/reward and "how to" on this.

I think it is too early to keep Sparta as it is going to drag our economy. Okay.

On ending your turn set, I cannot give you a goal as we need to discuss research objectives some more. We are currently on turn 107. If you play 13 more, that evens us out at turn 120. That's fine by me. I have through Tuesday night (about 36 hours from now) to finish my turn, as I will be away for four days thereafter.

Agree we need more discussion, but would cetainly like to play in 24 hours.

I think you are right that we need to get that Settler out of Tim and Ivory City is the place to go.

I have added a screenie to indicate better what I am thinking. Site 1 is where I might place the city for long term needs as it has more food and more resources. Site 2 is where I might place the city to meet the immediate need of getting Ivory hooked up and to our cities. The site marked F is a potential future site, should we choose site 1, as it includes a Rice, Banana and Horse tiles along with some hills for production.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/895BC_Ivory_City.jpg

I think I would like to