The barb city on the hill could be razed for a few gold if we need it. However, it's got 3 dye and 2 spices in its borders, so it could be caputred and eventually pay for itself with plantations. Usually, I'd cottage some, but hopefully, the game won't last long enough for the cottages to mature and the plantations would be a faster source of gold.

I'm dedicated. I've only looked at this thread and the summary thread. My question was about a strategy or technique and not about the game itself. But, I'll ask that question in a more appropriate thread. For now, I'll just follow the game as it unfolds. No more posts. Sorry for the interruption.

I have no problem with you being a dedicated lurker in our thread if others don't.

If your question was about the "gold chopping" technique, it would be better if you asked about it here rather than starting a new thread somewhere that other teams might see. I'm hoping that other teams don't figure out this strategy (although it is for all to see in the War Academy). It's explained here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=218272

I have no problem with you being a dedicated lurker in our thread if others don't.

If your question was about the "gold chopping" technique, it would be better if you asked about it here rather than starting a new thread somewhere that other teams might see. I'm hoping that other teams don't figure out this strategy (although it is for all to see in the War Academy). It's explained here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=218272

Got it in one. I didn't ask anywhere else after some thought. I figured the same thing as you. So I dug around and found the same article. Then I came back here.

Anyway, back into the shadows.

JT, the save file is asking us to select the next tech before we can scan the map or cycle the cities. This isn't the autosave from the beginning of the turn by chance?

EDIT: It shows Hannibal at 0 points, so it shouldn't be the autosave.

:clap: Nice work JT!! :woohoo:

Looks like you made your appropriate sacrifices at the RNG altar as well... :mischief:

Updated Roster:
Leif - UP
Gator - On Deck
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg
rrau
Cactus Pete
Jimmy Thunder - just played! :rockon:


I'd like to see JT's after action comments, then I'll start working on a plan. :D

Well played, JT.

Hope we can avoid building axes to fight barbs. Other units usually have more long-term efficacy.

In deciding on the desirability of Organized Religion, the 25% hammer boost on buildings in religious cities might tip the balance.

Glad to see you able to participate, Gator. Hope your zygapophyses are now perfectly and permanently in alignment.

My Gator eyes have spied something very interesting. Check this out.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2043/xteamsgv06001ow4.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06001ow4.jpg)

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/861/xteamsgv06002of1.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06002of1.jpg)

If you look real hard at the screen you can actually see the traditional Indian purple color at the 3 corners highlighted in the Globe View. I'm not sure we can reach with a single border expansion from the Cow Island but 2 borders will do. But it atleast lets us know where one AI resides.

The Forest Spice tile west of London would work also and probably better than the Cow Island. Free monument from Stonehenge and then could we use some artists as we are doing with the GS cities for the 2nd expansion? May not even need Astronomy at this point.

The Forest Spice tile west of London would work also and probably better than the Cow Island. Free monument from Stonehenge and then could we use some artists as we are doing with the GS cities for the 2nd expansion? May not even need Astronomy at this point.
Nice catch Gator!! Looks like we have some discussing to do! :goodjob:

Those Gator eyes are still as sharp as ever!! :scan:

EDIT - Not sure if Cow Island is better or Spice Point?? Cow Island looks closer?

All 3 tiles, the Forest Spice, the forest, and Cow Island have the same coastal tile and then ocean tile setup when you go 2 SW from any of them. Which is why it doesn't fit in the fat cross of the 1st cultural expansion.

Free monument is +1 cpt. Temple cost 80 hammers (at normal speed) for +1cpt, so artists may be better then temple.

If city is built on the regular forest tile (not the spice) it can grab the fish, cow, spices and even use the banana from London to speed the initial growth.

Glad to see you able to participate, Gator. Hope your zygapophyses are now perfectly and permanently in alignment.

I hope they are too. I have a brand new metal plate spanning 4 vertebraes so it well be pretty hard for them to get out of place. :lol:

If city is built on the regular forest tile (not the spice) it can grab the fish, cow, spices and even use the banana from London to speed the initial growth.

:hmm: That means Calender next to provide enough food to support Artists in the new city, we could have it in 8 turns. Then Construction for Cats and War Elephants.

Meanwhile, Ironsite should get a Galley built to send a worker to Cow Island for a Pasture? Then recon. :D

Please let us know when you are ready to :hammer:

I'm probably as ready mentally as I'll be. I just have to limit my session time to about an hour or so and then take a break. But over the course of a normal 2 day play time I'm sure I'll be okay. So either slip me in after you or between SCT and Fred (so they can fix my mistakes). Besides I can always blame bad play on the meds :p

I'm probably as ready mentally as I'll be. I just have to limit my session time to about an hour or so and then take a break. But over the course of a normal 2 day play time I'm sure I'll be okay. So either slip me in after you or between SCT and Fred (so they can fix my mistakes). Besides I can always blame bad play on the meds :p
Roster updated above. :D

If you look real hard at the screen you can actually see the traditional Indian purple color at the 3 corners highlighted in the Globe View. I'm not sure we can reach with a single border expansion from the Cow Island but 2 borders will do. But it atleast lets us know where one AI resides.

That's a nice trick. I still can't see any purple in regular view but it's clearly there in global view. The question is, can we really build a culture bridge city? Here's a close up:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/SG6-18.JPG

It doesn't look like the fat cross of a city on cow island would touch any of the purple tiles that we can see. There might be more purple tiles (where I've drawn the question marks) that don't show up because they're not on the corners. If there aren't purple tiles at either of those question marks, then I don't think a second border expansion would do any good, because borders only expand once into the ocean. All three water tiles next to the purple tiles are ocean.

In any case, we should proabably put York's settler on cow island. It will get its first border expansion 3 turns later and we'll know if we have a culture bridge or not. York can switch to working cows and have the settler in 10 turns. A galley can come from Athens or Ironsite by chopping a spare forest. Great Scientist plans can continue for the time being and we could research Construction before Calendar so that we can start building cats and elephants if we do have a culture bridge.

I think that Gator's idea of building the city on the peninsula may be a valid one as well. It gets us just as close in terms of cultural expansion and will be a more useful city site. By working food tiles such as the Cow and Banana, we can support enough Artists to get the second cultural expansion quicker and then use that as our bridge. I added to your screenie:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/355BC_Bridge_City.jpg

Having slept on it a bit, I also agree that we should continue with our plans for now concerning Astronomy. Bridging one gap, if we can accomplish that, doesn't mean that there won't be another. :rolleyes:

I think that Gator's idea of building the city on the peninsula may be a valid one as well. It gets us just as close in terms of cultural expansion and will be a more useful city site. By working food tiles such as the Cow and Banana, we can support enough Artists to get the second cultural expansion quicker and then use that as our bridge.

I'm not sure that a city on the peninsula would do any good. Borders only expand once into the ocean right? So a second border expansion at that site on the peninsula wouldn't reach out to touch those two purple tiles. I think the only hope for a culture bridge here is if one of the two tiles I marked with "?" are actually Indian as well. Does anyone know whether those tiles would show up as Indian on the global view if they were indeed Indian, or do only tiles on the corners show up?

I'm not sure that a city on the peninsula would do any good. Borders only expand once into the ocean right?
:eek: You've got me?? Guess I need to do a quick play test of this to see what happens... :hmm:

EDIT - You're right Shannon, no expansion into the second ocean tile. I went into WorldBuilder and added a city and then set its culture to 150.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/Border_Expansion_Test.jpg

Does anyone know whether those tiles would show up as Indian on the global view if they were indeed Indian, or do only tiles on the corners show up?

I've done the same thing with fog over land. As long as the corner is exposed the Globe View will show the location. I play with the options set to High Graphics Level, High Globe Level and High Detailed Terrain. My in-game screen resolution is currently at 1680x1050 and I can see the purple corner when I zoom in tight. I tried to take a screenie while zoomed in tight but it is not very useful.

I'm not sure how far expansions reach into the ocean, but I can look at a few save files I have on my machine. I should have a prior domination game where I was planting coastal cities. Be back soon.

"Bridging one gap, if we can accomplish that, doesn't mean that there won't be another."

Yes, India may only have been able to settle the city that Gator has identified after, say, Delhi expanded. Criticize this reasoning: If the new Indian city that we've just discovered is not on the western-most tile of a possible separate land mass, then we would probably have to raze it, construct a new city to the extreme west, and expand it in order to proceed further west.

Do I interpret correctly that a peninsula city would only access the upper ?, while a cow city would access both. It could be argued that the probability of the southern ? being land is twice that of the northern ?, as it is adjacent to two identified land tiles, rather than just one.

Gator, have you used your high-resolution technique to investigate our entire perimeter?

Where are we now on land tiles identified vs. tiles needed for Domination?

I'm not sure that a city on the peninsula would do any good. Borders only expand once into the ocean right? So a second border expansion at that site on the peninsula wouldn't reach out to touch those two purple tiles. I think the only hope for a culture bridge here is if one of the two tiles I marked with "?" are actually Indian as well. Does anyone know whether those tiles would show up as Indian on the global view if they were indeed Indian, or do only tiles on the corners show up?


EDIT - You're right Shannon, no expansion into the second ocean tile. I went into WorldBuilder and added a city and then set its culture to 150.

You're still right. I went 1 step further and added Egypt and their border to match hoping that the 2 borders might attract each other and allow crossing. I also used what I assume to be a four tile crossing (coast, ocean, ocean, coast) based on the ocean tile showing us no commerce. So the border corners that are appearing from under the fog should be sitting on ocean tiles as well. This is exactly how the Worldbuilder displayed them. BTW, I gave the Cow Island enough culture for 3 expansions and still no additional help with the borders. I also tried the city on the forest location with the same results.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7124/xteamsgv06004bh9.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06004bh9.jpg)

Yes, India may only have been able to settle the city that Gator has identified after, say, Delhi expanded. Criticize this reasoning: If the new Indian city that we've just discovered is not on the western-most tile of a possible separate land mass, then we would probably have to raze it, construct a new city to the extreme west, and expand it in order to proceed further west.

Do I interpret correctly that a peninsula city would only access the upper ?, while a cow city would access both. It could be argued that the probability of the southern ? being land is twice that of the northern ?, as it is adjacent to two identified land tiles, rather than just one.



We have the same problem even if the crossing is only 3 tiles across (coast, ocean, coast). See below.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1603/xteamsgv06005zv4.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06005zv4.jpg)

Again, I tried both the forest and Cow Island. I think this was part of Gyathaar's special map setup. Thebes can't be moved 1E or the ocean tiles lose the characteristic of displaying no commerce (as shown by the red circles). I was able to add a few more land tiles to create a 3 tile crossing but it still won't produce a culture bridge.

Gator, have you used your high-resolution technique to investigate our entire perimeter?

Yes, and I did not see anything else at the current time. I suspect our wb is close but nothing is showing.

Where are we now on land tiles identified vs. tiles needed for Domination?

I haven't counted them yet. I think JT did last time, not sure if he has a quick way to add to his prior figure?

Criticize this reasoning: If the new Indian city that we've just discovered is not on the western-most tile of a possible separate land mass, then we would probably have to raze it, construct a new city to the extreme west, and expand it in order to proceed further west.

If that city is reachable by culture bridge, we might have to not attack it right away to preserve the bridge. But all of India must be reachable by its own galleys, so if we could make a bridge, there must be some way to capture all of India.

Do I interpret correctly that a peninsula city would only access the upper ?, while a cow city would access both. It could be argued that the probability of the southern ? being land is twice that of the northern ?, as it is adjacent to two identified land tiles, rather than just one.

I can verify from testing that if there was a purple tile on either of those question marks, we would be able to see it if we re-unfog the tiles next to them. It's been 25+ turns since we last explored that area, so we should get a galley over there ASAP and then we'll know if a bridge will work.

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.

I can't tell. What I see is the edge of what appears to be a rounded corner. Here is a full size screenie.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/150/civ4screenshot0003us3.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0003us3.jpg)

I've placed a redline outside the purple border, so the corner is actually more tight than I've drawn.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/858/xteamsgv06006cb8.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06006cb8.jpg)


The fog will hide the true border so getting a galley or a border expansion from Cow Island will display the info about the 2 question marked tiles.

"The fog will hide the true border so getting a galley or a border expansion from Cow Island will display the info about the 2 question-marked tiles."

(Sorry, but I can't get resolution beyone 1224x on my computer, and thus your screen shots don't show anything to me.) This statement implies that you think we will be able to tell whether SCT's ? tiles are ocean or coast.

Gator, it is not clear to me whether you think it is posible for there to be a purple tile where SCT has a ?. If so, and we get a galley out to verify that there is one, will we be able to tell whether it is a coastal or an ocean tile?

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.

Best way to get a galley there would seem to be to chop the forest east of Ironsite.
That forest is outside the cultural boundaries. I tested it in our test game and it yielded 24 hammers, one-third the cost of a Galley.

York could produce a Galley in 7 turns. It would seem the fastest, unless we wish to build a Work Boat?

That forest is outside the cultural boundaries. I tested it in our test game and it yielded 24 hammers, one-third the cost of a Galley.

York could produce a Galley in 7 turns. It would seem the fastest, unless we wish to build a Work Boat?

With one chop and with Ironsite changing to a workboat immediately, we get it in 8 turns there by my count. And Ironsite is 2 turns closer to the tiles we want to explore. I'd say York should continue with the settler.

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.
Agree we need to continue settler in York (and build either a galley or wb in Ironsite).

Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?
Taking the Indian city would collapse the culture until resistance is over. Then we would have to wait for a second cultural expansion to reestablish the bridge. We could not pass our Galleys over an ocean tile with no cultural expansion.

Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

That's a negatory good buddy. I seem to remember that being true in an earlier version though.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/SG6-19.JPG

Had military arrive at Carthage on time, but they stood there with 4 archers and I wasn't confident to go after them with 6 sword 2 axes (I was probably too conservative, but if we failed the attack our plan was down the toilet).

Oh, maybe you should have done a Haka before playing to bring out your true warrior spirit ;). 6 swords and 2 axes (many with CR2) against 4 archers will capture the city with a probability in the high nineties (My guess would be around 96% chance of capture). The correct play is clearly to attack immediately.


Everything went to plan (but we will be a few turns delayed on our best case practice game).

We are 6 turns delayed with the capture of Carthage and we are even more delayed with settler building compared to my test game. This means that we should look for new and hopefully equally good solutions for our rush to Astronomy. It probably also means that we are in a hurry to capture Sparta since Athens will get angry citizens very soon (in a little more than 10 turns).

I still think we are in pretty good shape particularly if we can get an extra settler and a few more workers built soon.


Please explain temporary bridge loss. Is it not the case that our galleys can never sail on alien ocean tiles?

In Warlords galleys can use enemy cultural space including ocean tiles. Bridge loss can occur if we capture a city that had expanded borders one or more times.

My testing indicates that there are land/city configurations that could cause that lower "?" tile to become purple eventually. But the zero commerce tiles next to it suggest that it would be an ocean tile. So if we got across and captured the city, we would lose the bridge for a while. So we get a galley over there and wait. If there's no new purple visible when our new settler is done, he goes and founds a city on the continent, and York builds another settler as planned.

I agree with this approach. My feeling is that the chance of establishing a cultural bridge is low so settling on cow island without knowing if it will be a cultural bridge seems to me to be too much of a gamble.

Knowing that India is close is, however, very useful and it means that the need for getting caravels early is further reduced since we already know where we can find the next enemy.

I agree with this approach. My feeling is that the chance of establishing a cultural bridge is low so settling on cow island without knowing if it will be a cultural bridge seems to me to be too much of a gamble.

Knowing that India is close is, however, very useful and it means that the need for getting caravels early is further reduced since we already know where we can find the next enemy.
While I think we ought to check out the prospects for a culture bridge, I am wondering if it should be weighed against meeting the civ and having war declared? Between now and Astronomy, that will give them a bit of time to build defenses and we can't park a couple of Axes nearby. Will it matter if war is declared so soon?

Knowing India is close means we can sail Galleons right up to their city on the turn war is declared... :mischief:

While I think we ought to check out the prospects for a culture bridge, I am wondering if it should be weighed against meeting the civ and having war declared? Between now and Astronomy, that will give them a bit of time to build defenses and we can't park a couple of Axes nearby. Will it matter if war is declared so soon?

Knowing India is close means we can sail Galleons right up to their city on the turn war is declared... :mischief:

I see your point that we don't want to give India a lot of advanced warning about our attack. But I wonder if having a tile count of the new land is more important than the element of surprise. If we find out that India's land would give us enough land for domination, I guess that would necessitate a big change in direction.

If a culture bridge opportunity never presents itself, then the element of surprise should make India an easy mark.

(Sorry, but I can't get resolution beyone 1224x on my computer, and thus your screen shots don't show anything to me.)

CP, have you been able to see any of the pics I posted or just the last 2 that were 1680x1050? I've resized one for you, see if this helps.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6959/xteamsgv06007vx9.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06007vx9.jpg)

There is a small chance that a passage might exist here.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3421/xteamsgv06008nk2.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06008nk2.jpg)


We stayed to the north side of the island and didn't venture to the south, but now that we know that "Purple" is there it might be worth exploring. So a wb from York or Ironsite soon might still be useful.

We're currently #1 in Soldier ranking, so it would be nice to not let the other AI's catch up.

[QUOTE=ShannonCT;6360197]I see your point that we don't want to give India a lot of advanced warning about our attack. But I wonder if having a tile count of the new land is more important than the element of surprise. If we find out that India's land would give us enough land for domination, I guess that would necessitate a big change in direction. Right, not just a tile count, but the knowledge that Astronomy is not needed. QUOTE]

A wb will not survive long enough to get a tile count. We may want to load a galley.

I've been playing BTS, and I couldn't sail on alien oceans. Have to rely on my teammates to keep things straight.

Gator, I can expand your screen shots. I just can't see any purple haze. No big deal. BTW, my decision to not circumnavigate that NW island -- wanted to explore our north and east coasts quickly as possible and didn't think the probability of a civ that far north was very high.

A wb will not survive long enough to get a tile count. We may want to load a galley.
If we want something that will survive, I suggest we build a Trireme. If we confirm the passage, we may need a Trireme for defense! :eek:

I've been playing BTS, and I couldn't sail on alien oceans. Have to rely on my teammates to keep things straight.
Yes, this was a very unpleasant surprise for me in :bts: I couldn't figure out why I couldn't go where I wanted. I didn't even work when I had a Right of Passage... :cry:

Where are we now on land tiles identified vs. tiles needed for Domination?

I count 567 tiles visible now. JT calculated that we need 781 for domination. There are probably a few more tiles southeast of Athens and on the island to the east but culture bridge or not, it's going to be a while before we see 781 tiles.

If we want something that will survive, I suggest we build a Trireme. If we confirm the passage, we may need a Trireme for defense! :eek:

We'll need a galley first to be able to establish a culture bridge but a trireme would be best for exploring if we do get across.

Summary of turns

I’ve left out troop movements and worker movements but basically: I moved all military to Carthage while trying to fend off barbs, workers carried out actions outlined in the pre-turn plan. Workboat continued to scout and is still following an island chain.

Delayed taking Carthage and waited until they sent a settler party out – only to meet 4 archers in the city anyway. Regret not going for Carthage ASAP.

125) switch research to masonry, Timbuktu->start on Sword
126) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu
127) saw two archers in Sparta, the next turn there were three archers there
128) learnt Masonry, switch to Priesthood, kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, kill barb warrior next to Ivoryville, kill barb warrior near London, lose mine near Timbuktu,
London: Axe->Sword, Athens->start pre-building Walls, miscalculated one workers movement so Ivoryville wall-chop due next turn now
129) Priesthood learnt, switch to Code of Laws, kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, York: Stonehenge->warrior->warrior (to correspond with growth time till size 5), chops Walls in Ivoryville
130) kill barb warrior next to Athens, Ivoryville builds warrior with hammer overflow
131) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu
132) York: finished 2nd warrior->worker, Athens: built Walls until 1 turn to go -> Granary
133) London: Sword->Sword
134) kill barb warrior outside Ivoryville
135)
136) Ironsite: Granary->Swordsman
137) kill barb archer next to Timbuktu, kill barb warrior next to Athens
138) kill barb warrior next to Athens, lose Rice farm by Timbuktu to barb archer, London: Sword->Sword
139) learnt Code of Laws, switch to SailingConvert to Confucism (angry face in Timbuktu, should I have made the switch?)
Anarchy 1 turn
140) switch from Slavery to Caste System, kill barb archer next to York, kill barb archer next to TimbuktuAnarchy 1 turn
141)
142) kill barb warrior next to Timbuktu, York: worker->settler
143) learnt Sailing, next tech still to be chosen, Carthage falls with the loss of one sword

Comments:
Stressful defending Timbuktu with only warrior defence, but we got through – at the cost of some tile improvements.

Timbuktu and Ivoryville currently under barb archer threat. Ivoryville can move swordsman who is SW of the city in for help, but may compromise fog busting for Athens workers (small risk of barb spawning on the roaded plains square). Timbuktu probably has a favourable chance of fending off current barbs but could cash upgrade a warrior to an axe to finish the barb threat once and for all.

One of the two warriors in the middle of the continent to the north was to be moved to a hill north of Timbuktu to fogbust.

Worker force at Athens can upgrade copper and sheep after chop and also move to Ivoryville to upgrade iron/cows/ivory.

Confucian missionary needs escort from Timbuktu to desired city.

Athens walls can be chopped next turn all forests have 1 turn to go (including the roaded forest with no worker on it) but have to wait 2 turns for border expansion. Could possibly run one artist and one scientist for a single turn to pop borders next turn (1 turn faster)– will contaminate GS pool but will end up being less than 2% contamination?

Some Athens forest tiles have prebuilt roads on them (to use worker turns while synchronizing the chop) you can see which ones by selecting a worker and holding the mouse over the “build road” icon. Any number less than 4 means there are worker turns invested in the prebuild.

BTW, my decision to not circumnavigate that NW island -- wanted to explore our north and east coasts quickly as possible and didn't think the probability of a civ that far north was very high.

South side of that island may not lead anywhere, at the time your early move was by far the better play.

We'll need a galley first to be able to establish a culture bridge but a trireme would be best for exploring if we do get across.

If we settle the Cow Island it can work the banana by London and grow to size 2 in 9 turns. Combine an artist (2 turns) with the free monument and both of the "?" tiles are revealed in 11 turns from when the city is founded.

This can probably be done without affecting the GS strategy. If no passage exists will Purple Haze feel in danger and gear up for war?

That's a negatory good buddy. I seem to remember that being true in an earlier version though.

Correct. In vanilla, you can sail on alien ocean tiles only if you have open borders but are not at war. The instant you are at war with someone, you cannot sail on their ocean tiles with a galley. As SCT demonstrates here with that screenshot though, it looks like Warlords is different!

Thanks for the thorough write up, JT. The barbs must hate your viscera.

"This can probably be done without affecting the GS strategy. If no passage exists will Purple Haze feel in danger and gear up for war?" Won't settling the cow city affect the strategy more than building a galley?

If we settle the Cow Island it can work the banana by London and grow to size 2 in 9 turns. Combine an artist (2 turns) with the free monument and both of the "?" tiles are revealed in 11 turns from when the city is founded.

This can probably be done without affecting the GS strategy. If no passage exists will Purple Haze feel in danger and gear up for war?

Settling Cow Island won't affect the GS strategy but it will affect the gold chopping strategy. That settler was intended to settle next to some forests so we could sustain 100% research.

We can reveal whether the "?" tiles are purple or not simply by sending a galley to explore - no need to settle on Cow Island unless the galley reveals a bridge is possible.

After reading JT's after action post (nice work JT!) :goodjob: , I've been trying to develop a plan. It is for about the next 10 to 12 turns, until we can get a Galley over to the Cow Island area. The reason I think we should take the time to build a Galley is that we'll need to be able to transport the Settler to Cow Island if a culture bridge can be established, so the few extra turns to build the Galley may be worth it.

Cities
London - continue Sword => Sword.
York - Settler
Ironsite - change to Galley (9 turns with chop) =>back to Sword
Ivoryville - continue Granary
Athens - it has 2 turns to cultural expansion, once expanded, change to Walls and chop for Gold then back to finish Granary and then Barracks or Sword? When at pop 5, hire Scientists.
Carthage - Work Boat => Walls to prepare for chopping for Gold and then Granary.
Timbuktu - continue Sword and maintain Scientists.

Worker actions
Ironsite - both Workers head for eastern forest to chop for the Galley then to Gold Hill to mine, then to grass hill to mine.
Athens - complete roads for a turn and then complete chops for Gold. After Gold chops, move 3 workers towards Carthage for Gold chopping there, two workers to Ivoryville to improve tiles and retain two Workers in Athens to improve the Copper and Sheep tiles.
Carthage - Workers begin pre-chopping for the Gold. Once out of resistance, Workers chop a forest for the Work Boat and then back to pre-chopping for Gold.
Ivoryville - when Workers arrive there, start improving an Ivory tile and the Cow tile, then move to a second Ivory tile and the Iron tile. They will also be needed to chop a Monastery and some missionaries once we have established Confucianism there.

In general, this plan also sets up the Workers to be ready for Horse city. We can bring the Workers from Athens, Ironsite and Ivoryville together to chop for Gold at Horse city. The workers at Carthage can continue to improve tiles for the 5 population to work there.

Military
One of the Axes NW of Carthage move two tiles SW to the grass hill overlooking Sparta for recon and observation.
One of the Axes in that stack moves northwest towards Ivoryville to help with Barb Archer and then north to escort Confucian Missionary to Ivoryville so we can chop Monastery and Missionaries.
Sword in that stack to move initially towards Ivoryville to help if needed and then head for Sparta.
The units around Carthage - Warrior into Carthage as MP. The other heal and then begin move to Sparta. Once we see what is in Sparta, we'll need to allocate forces to take that city.
The Sword west of Ivoryville could move towards Ivoryville to assist with the Barb Archer. Should probably do so to ensure the city isn't taken?

Upgrading a Warrior in Tim will slow research, so I think we should try to stick it out and see what happens. If we lose a Warrior, then we'll have to upgraded a Warrior to an Axe, costs 110 Gold.

Techs
Initially, set research to Meditation as we will need it for the Monastery at Ivoryville and to bulb Philosophy..
Next research objective isn't so clear. Calendar will increase our food available but will end Stonehenge's usefullness, so I think we should put that off a bit longer.
Construction will provide us the ability to build Cats and War Elephants. Building these sooner will give us a chance to train them against Barb units, so this may be the best next choice.
Metal Casting - we will need this eventually as well, but it is not as immediately useful as Construction. Metal Casting will allow us to build Forges, which provide additional happiness with Gold, Silver and Gems?

So, I think it should be Meditation and then Construction?

I plan to play until a Galley is south of Cow Island so that we can see whether a Culture Bridge is possible. Then we can decide whether to hand over the save or what objective I should continue to play towards. :D

Delayed taking Carthage and waited until they sent a settler party out – only to meet 4 archers in the city anyway. Regret not going for Carthage ASAP.

Don't feel bad about this. We are doing well and I think Astro will be delayed by less than the 6 turns we lost waiting outside Carthage. Next time you have odds 20:1 I'm sure you will go for the :ar15: :D.

Settling Cow Island won't affect the GS strategy but it will affect the gold chopping strategy. That settler was intended to settle next to some forests so we could sustain 100% research.

I agree. Using the settler for cow island will probably have a negative impact on the Astronomy date. I'm not in favor of taking this chance and I wouldn't be surprised if Gyathaar modified this map to eliminate any culture bridges. Maybe we can build a settler for cow island later.

We can reveal whether the "?" tiles are purple or not simply by sending a galley to explore - no need to settle on Cow Island unless the galley reveals a bridge is possible.

I don't understand this. As far as I can see we have already explored as many of the ocean tiles as we can near cow island. I even tested this in the test game and I wasn't able to explore more tiles with a galley. Can someone explain?

Very nice plan leif :goodjob:.


Cities
London - continue Sword => Sword.
York - Settler
Ironsite - change to Galley (9 turns with chop) =>back to Sword
Ivoryville - continue Granary
Athens - it has 2 turns to cultural expansion, once expanded, change to Walls and chop for Gold then back to finish Granary and then Barracks or Sword? When at pop 5, hire Scientists.
Carthage - Work Boat => Walls to prepare for chopping for Gold and then Granary.
Timbuktu - continue Sword and maintain Scientists.

I'm a little worried about the size of our work force and I would like to build (maybe chop) a couple op workers soon. Another settler would also be nice. In my test I founded Gold City and Horse city - the first to speed science by working the two gold hills (and chop 5 forest) and the second to get a lot of forests chopped. I would prioritize this higher than building more swords.

We have to decide now how to get missionaries for both Athens and Carthage. If we go for Monotheism we can send our current missionary (with proper escort) to Athens and when we switch to OR we can build or preferably chop a missionary for Carthage here. The alternative approach is to skip Monotheism, send the missionary to Ivoryville and build a Monastery and two missionaries here. The drawback is that we use a lot of hammers for the Monastery and the extra missionary and I'm also unsure if we have spare workers that can chop to speed up this. I would definitely like to see a detailed plan if we decide to go this way. A benefit of the Monotheism plan is that we get one extra happy face in Athens quite fast due to having religion there (we might as well convert now) and that could be of value because we are under pressure by the fast growth here.

I think the work boat we are building in Carthage should go directly to the clam near Athens.

In my test game i didn't hire scientists in Athens before I converted to pacifism. The reason behind is that I wanted to optimize pop growth first and then hire the scientists when the GP points count double. I haven't done the math - it just seemed the logical way to do it.

In Timbuktu it's the other way around. We should probably do our best to get the GS ASAP since we will use him for bulbing Philo.

Worker actions
Ironsite - both Workers head for eastern forest to chop for the Galley then to Gold Hill to mine, then to grass hill to mine.
Athens - complete roads for a turn and then complete chops for Gold. After Gold chops, move 3 workers towards Carthage for Gold chopping there, two workers to Ivoryville to improve tiles and retain two Workers in Athens to improve the Copper and Sheep tiles.
Carthage - Workers begin pre-chopping for the Gold. Once out of resistance, Workers chop a forest for the Work Boat and then back to pre-chopping for Gold.
Ivoryville - when Workers arrive there, start improving an Ivory tile and the Cow tile, then move to a second Ivory tile and the Iron tile. They will also be needed to chop a Monastery and some missionaries once we have established Confucianism there.

I don't find the galley so important that we should delay mining the gold. I think we should aim to have the gold mine completed before Ironsite grows.

As I stated earlier I'm not sure that chopping a Monastery and missionaries is the best choice. Those forest could also be used to build much needed workers and maybe a settler.

In general, this plan also sets up the Workers to be ready for Horse city. We can bring the Workers from Athens, Ironsite and Ivoryville together to chop for Gold at Horse city. The workers at Carthage can continue to improve tiles for the 5 population to work there.

I think we will be short of workers - in my test the treasury was emptied quite fast and many workers did little else than chop. We should also keep in mind that although a few workers can do the pre-chopping we need say 8 workers if we aim to chop 8 forests into gold all chops must come in the same turn. Horse city will be difficult to improve before we chop and before Calendar so maybe it's better to use the first settler for Gold City and then build another one for Horse City fairly soon. In my test the gold hills near Gold City contributed to the tech speed.

Techs
Initially, set research to Meditation as we will need it for the Monastery at Ivoryville and to bulb Philosophy..
Next research objective isn't so clear. Calendar will increase our food available but will end Stonehenge's usefullness, so I think we should put that off a bit longer.
Construction will provide us the ability to build Cats and War Elephants. Building these sooner will give us a chance to train them against Barb units, so this may be the best next choice.
Metal Casting - we will need this eventually as well, but it is not as immediately useful as Construction. Metal Casting will allow us to build Forges, which provide additional happiness with Gold, Silver and Gems?

So, I think it should be Meditation and then Construction?

Monotheism might be the next tech we want depending on the decision regarding how to build missionaries. Calendar can be postponed until we can see that we have spare workers that can build plantations. We need it before Athens grows to size 10 because of the extra happy face we can get from hooking up the spices near Carthage. So Meditation and Construction are probably the most useful techs - perhaps with Monotheism inserted before. I doubt that forges will be worth the hammers they cost but we should try to figure this out on a city by city basis. When we exit Caste System and go back to slavery the happy cap will be less important.

I don't understand this. As far as I can see we have already explored as many of the ocean tiles as we can near cow island. I even tested this in the test game and I wasn't able to explore more tiles with a galley. Can someone explain?

The reason to get a galley back over there is that if the borders of the Indian city expanded in the last 25 turns or so, the "?" tiles might now be visibly purple. We will only see borders expand if the area is defogged.

I'd think that Monotheism and Org. Rel. would give us more flexibility (that is, buildings will be a bit cheaper, including forges for example) and would be my choice if the call is close.

I'd think that Monotheism and Org. Rel. would give us more flexibility (that is, buildings will be a bit cheaper, including forges for example) and would be my choice if the call is close.

I'm not sure when we'll actually get the production benefit of Organized Religion. We'll be getting our GS for Pacifism in 12-13 turns. Our only Confucian city right now is Timbuktu, which is building a sword. If we use the missionary in Athens and build another missionary there, Athens wont be getting an OR production bonus until it's building a city improvement again. But we'll be converting to Pacifism a turn or two after that, and staying with it until Astronomy. And I thought after Astronomy we wanted to produce units exclusively.

I'm not sure when we'll actually get the production benefit of Organized Religion. We'll be getting our GS for Pacifism in 12-13 turns. Our only Confucian city right now Timbuktu, which is building a sword. If we use the missionary in Athens and build another missionary there, Athens wont be getting an OR production bonus until it's building a city improvement again. But we'll be converting to Pacifism a turn or two after that, and staying with it until Astronomy. And I thought after Astronomy we wanted to produce units exclusively.

With only 12-13 turns to Pacifism I think we should select the plan that will give us Conf. in all GP farms ASAP. I have a feeling that missionary to Athens + Monotheism is the fastest path. It's clearly the path that requires fewer worker turns since we don't need a lot of chopping in Ivoryville.

I guess it's units exclusively after Astro. Unless we can calculate that we can get our invested hammers back by building a forge in a very hammer/food rich city like Athens.

It is actually 15 turns until the birth the Great Scientist in Timbuktu. ;) 16 with a revolt to Organized Religion... :mischief:

I have been thinking about Fred's post above as a response to the plan I worked up. He identifies some important issues. One you have been discussing, Organized Religion versus Monastery.

The more I think about this and stare at the map, and the work Gator has done, the more I don't think there will be a culture bridge to India. Why start the war with India now? I guess the way to really tell is to sail to a point 1-tile SW of Cow Island and if no borders are visible, then no culture bridge. So can we delay the Galley, send a Work Boat or ????

Another thing is that as I study the map I realize how weak we are versus Barbs, because we need to take Sparta, and that aggressive settling will require that we build some units. The Sword from London may have to go with the Settler to Gold City. We will be able to tell more once we see what is in Sparta?

I think the worker situation is manageable until we found Gold City. I agree that that is the best city site to help with research but it puts nearly all of the Workers out of position and a long walk away. Never mind the issue of escorting them there?

Oh, and a question. At Athens, once it expands I think there will be 7 or 8 forests all pre-chopped. Should we chop them all or only 5?

I guess the best place to build new Workers would be Ivoryville as we chop them there? There are currently 13 Workers. How many more do you think we need?

I tried to do the plan with as much detail as possible because I think we still have a number of issues to work on. This game is getting complicated!! :)

It looks like the Organized Religion vs. Monastery discussion is leaning towards OR? I think perhaps before Construction?

Settling Cow Island won't affect the GS strategy but it will affect the gold chopping strategy. That settler was intended to settle next to some forests so we could sustain 100% research.

I wasn't thinking about the gold side. I'm in no hurry to settle on Cow Island, it would be nice to maybe sneak in a cheap wb or galley to do some exploring because we also don't want to be surprised to find a ship dropping off Purple People near London. Will an off-continent AI try to make first contact via galleys in an AW game?

On the OR vrs Mono route, if we only get the +25% bonus on buildings will we gain much from switching to OR for the short time we plan to be in it?

Leif, when Athens border pops it will clear a few more water fog tiles so be sure to check the globe view.

If we don't want to get contact yet with the Purple People, can we put a tireme near there? (be nice to have some turns without WW) It can attack and hopefully sink any loaded galleys that head our way.

I'm a little worried about the size of our work force and I would like to build (maybe chop) a couple op workers soon. Another settler would also be nice. In my test I founded Gold City and Horse city - the first to speed science by working the two gold hills (and chop 5 forest) and the second to get a lot of forests chopped. I would prioritize this higher than building more swords.

Agreed. 2-3 more workers will be needed so that we have enough workers to improve each city's good tiles before moving on to chopping the next set of forests. York and London are good candidates for building workers since they are slow growth and high hammer.

We have to decide now how to get missionaries for both Athens and Carthage.

I'll make my final case for the monastary and then accept the decision of the team:

1) At the time we would be revolting to Organized Religion (6-7 turns from now?), we will be getting 90-100 beakers per turn and 70-80 hammers/surplus food per turn. So that output is sacraficed during a turn of revolt. The hammer cost of a monastary and an extra missionary is 150. So the net cost considering food/hammers lost to revolt is ~75. In return, we save 256 beakers from not researching Monotheism and ~95 from not revolting. So by building a monastary, we're giving up ~75 hammers (5/6 of a worker) and probably ~20 worker-turns for 350 beakers and at least one less turn to Astronomy.

2) Our missionary is 6 turns away from Athens if he left now, and he won't be leaving now without an escort I assume. So maybe he's 7-8 turns away from Athens. With well-timed chopping in Athens, it takes 1 more turn to build the missionary, and then 5 more turns to get to Carthage and convert it. So with Monotheism, we're 13-14 turns from converting Carthage. In Timbuktu, we're currently running 3 scientists, but we could run 4 while losing 2 food per turn until the rice is re-irrigated in 2 more turns. At that point we would be breaking even in food and have 23 in the food box. If we go into starvation mode in Tim a few turns later, we get the GS in a total of 10-11 turns, including the turn for revolt. So we're ready to start Pacifism in 11-12 turns, about 2 turns sooner than a missionary would get to Carthage. Sending the missionary to Ivoryville instead of Athens saves 3 turns. Sending a missionary to Carthage from Ivoryville instead of from Athens saves another 3 turns. With well-timed chopping in Ivoryville, the monastary can be completed the turn after conversion and a missionary the turn after that; so 1 turn is lost compared to Athens in building a missionary. A monastary in Ivoryville is 4-5 turns faster at getting Carthage converted and at least as fast at getting the final city converted. Carthage is the bottleneck for our 4th GS, so I would prioritize its conversion time.

In my test game i didn't hire scientists in Athens before I converted to pacifism. The reason behind is that I wanted to optimize pop growth first and then hire the scientists when the GP points count double. I haven't done the math - it just seemed the logical way to do it.

Sounds good. As long as Athens is caught up with Tim by the time Tim gets our 3rd GS, it doesn't matter if when we got the GS points.

In Timbuktu it's the other way around. We should probably do our best to get the GS ASAP since we will use him for bulbing Philo.

That's right. Starve it until there's only 1 food left in the box.

I don't find the galley so important that we should delay mining the gold. I think we should aim to have the gold mine completed before Ironsite grows.

In that case it would need only one extra worker-turn of help from the worker north of Ironsite.

I think we will be short of workers - in my test the treasury was emptied quite fast and many workers did little else than chop. We should also keep in mind that although a few workers can do the pre-chopping we need say 8 workers if we aim to chop 8 forests into gold all chops must come in the same turn. Horse city will be difficult to improve before we chop and before Calendar so maybe it's better to use the first settler for Gold City and then build another one for Horse City fairly soon. In my test the gold hills near Gold City contributed to the tech speed.

Sounds good to settle gold city first. Our fogbusters are scouting a nice clear path between York and the Gold City site. A couple workers can go there when the city is founded and start on the rice and gold, and then the chopping party from Carthage can follow when they're free.

So Meditation and Construction are probably the most useful techs - perhaps with Monotheism inserted before.

Don't forget Hunting, for ivory camps.

I doubt that forges will be worth the hammers they cost but we should try to figure this out on a city by city basis. When we exit Caste System and go back to slavery the happy cap will be less important.

I don't think forges will be worth building if we're trying for fast conquest/domination. It takes a city with good production 40-50 turns to make up for building a forge, and not building it means getting your units out earlier.

The more I think about this and stare at the map, and the work Gator has done, the more I don't think there will be a culture bridge to India. Why start the war with India now? I guess the way to really tell is to sail to a point 1-tile SW of Cow Island and if no borders are visible, then no culture bridge. So can we delay the Galley, send a Work Boat or ????

But a workboat won't be useful for anything else. A galley will be useful for building a bridge city if possible, or for upgrading to a galleon later.

Another thing is that as I study the map I realize how weak we are versus Barbs, because we need to take Sparta, and that aggressive settling will require that we build some units. The Sword from London may have to go with the Settler to Gold City. We will be able to tell more once we see what is in Sparta?

I think we're actually in pretty good shape vs barbs. Tim's warrior can be upgraded to an axe and (fingers crossed) kill the warrior and archer. Tim should be safe after that. Our newest warrior can fogbust the area around the future Gold City. After the swordsman kills the archer approaching Ivoryville, the warrior there can go fogbust the jungle to the north in preparation for building Horse City. We only need a max of 2 CR3 swords to go take care of Sparta (in my test games, one was always enough). Athens is pretty safe now with two axemen on duty. A single unit placed in the jungle near the new barb city should keep it occupied.

Oh, and a question. At Athens, once it expands I think there will be 7 or 8 forests all pre-chopped. Should we chop them all or only 5?

I think we need the gold from all 7.

I guess the best place to build new Workers would be Ivoryville as we chop them there? There are currently 13 Workers. How many more do you think we need?

If we don't chop the monastary/missionaries in Ivoryville, then it's a good place for chopping workers. Just be sure to queue swap so that it can keep growing. It has too many awesome tiles.

If we don't want to get contact yet with the Purple People, can we put a tireme near there? (be nice to have some turns without WW) It can attack and hopefully sink any loaded galleys that head our way.

The Indians can't bridge the ocean without our help (building a city on Cow island). So we only need a trireme if we build a bridge city.

Leif, your idea of hiring an artist in Athens for one turn is probably OK. We will get 3 artist GP points and since the GS we plan for in Athens is our 4th GS he will require 600 GPP so the probability of a GA will be only 0.5%. Don't forget to fire him :eek:. We probably need to do the same in Carthage because expansion is too slow - we wont get enough gold from chopping in Athens to keep science at 100% for 20 turns (5 turns of anarchy+15 turns of 1 cpt)

I'll make my final case for the monastary and then accept the decision of the team:

1) At the time we would be revolting to Organized Religion (6-7 turns from now?), we will be getting 90-100 beakers per turn and 70-80 hammers/surplus food per turn. So that output is sacraficed during a turn of revolt. The hammer cost of a monastary and an extra missionary is 150. So the net cost considering food/hammers lost to revolt is ~75. In return, we save 256 beakers from not researching Monotheism and ~95 from not revolting. So by building a monastary, we're giving up ~75 hammers (5/6 of a worker) and probably ~20 worker-turns for 350 beakers and at least one less turn to Astronomy.

2) Our missionary is 6 turns away from Athens if he left now, and he won't be leaving now without an escort I assume. So maybe he's 7-8 turns away from Athens. With well-timed chopping in Athens, it takes 1 more turn to build the missionary, and then 5 more turns to get to Carthage and convert it. So with Monotheism, we're 13-14 turns from converting Carthage. In Timbuktu, we're currently running 3 scientists, but we could run 4 while losing 2 food per turn until the rice is re-irrigated in 2 more turns. At that point we would be breaking even in food and have 23 in the food box. If we go into starvation mode in Tim a few turns later, we get the GS in a total of 10-11 turns, including the turn for revolt. So we're ready to start Pacifism in 11-12 turns, about 2 turns sooner than a missionary would get to Carthage. Sending the missionary to Ivoryville instead of Athens saves 3 turns. Sending a missionary to Carthage from Ivoryville instead of from Athens saves another 3 turns. With well-timed chopping in Ivoryville, the monastary can be completed the turn after conversion and a missionary the turn after that; so 1 turn is lost compared to Athens in building a missionary. A monastary in Ivoryville is 4-5 turns faster at getting Carthage converted and at least as fast at getting the final city converted. Carthage is the bottleneck for our 4th GS, so I would prioritize its conversion time.

It's a good idea to starve Timbuktu for a while to speed up the GS - we can have him in 11 turns since we have 27 food stored and we are only loosing 2 per turn. If Carthage is indeed the bottleneck then we can send the missionary (5 turns) to Carthage and chop another one there after changing to OR. I agree that we can't move him escorted, but if we upgrade the shock warrior to an axe we could move the missionary to the hill south of Tim escorted by the warrior. Then next turn he could tentatively move 2 steps into the jungle. If he sees a threat he has time to move back to the hill and if not he can continue south and move out of the fog of war. He could probably be in Carthage 6-7 turns from now. Moving a missionary from Carthage to Athens takes 4 turns so both cities could be converted 11 turns from now

Building Monastery and 2 missionaries in Ivoryville means that we must chop 4-5 forests. That can probably be done in about 8 turns and it will require all 9 workers we have down south. Then 3 turns to move the Missionaries to Carthage and Athens. Again 11 turns, but we should remember that this approach leaves no time for improving any tiles around Athens, Ivoryville and Carthage during this time. In other words both strategies will give the same timing for our GS's and the evaluation should be based on hammers and city development vs beakers. In my test game beakers were not limiting the Astro date.

Leif, your idea of hiring an artist in Athens for one turn is probably OK. We will get 3 artist GP points and since the GS we plan for in Athens is our 4th GS he will require 600 GPP so the probability of a GA will be only 0.5%. Don't forget to fire him :eek:. We probably need to do the same in Carthage because expansion is too slow - we wont get enough gold from chopping in Athens to keep science at 100% for 20 turns (5 turns of anarchy+15 turns of 1 cpt)

If Carthage is indeed the bottleneck then we can send the missionary (5 turns) to Carthage and chop another one there after changing to OR.

He could probably be in Carthage 6-7 turns from now. Moving a missionary from Carthage to Athens takes 4 turns so both cities could be converted 11 turns from now

Hiring the artist in Athens for 1 turn is worth the small risk of getting an artist. Better not to waste worker turns there. Hiring artists in Carthage wont be as necessary if we send the free missionary to Carthage, which I like better than sending it to Athens. Converting Carthage right away will give a border pop in 8 turns.

OR will also add to the Gold Wall Chop if the city has state religion. I just tested it. It was a small increase of 66 gold from 663 gold from 5 forest chops to about 729 gold. This wasn't the maximum hammer overflow for 5 forest since the wall only had 1 turn of hammers into the production (9 of 75) but I was able to whip for 1 pop. OR even increased the whip overflow by 11 hammers from 144/75 to 155/75.

We probably won't use this, but good to know.

Just to clarify about hiring an artist:

It's not the % of the total GPP's that came from an artist that count, but instead it considers how many GPP sources there were for each turn that GPP's were accumulated.

It would be better to hire a scientist and and artist for one turn.

My best attempt at an explanation is below, hopefully it makes some sense.

For each turn that GPP's are accumulated, every source of GPP's has an even weighting in determining the % split of what GP you get. e.g. if you have one artist (3GPP) and one scientist (3GPP) the split is 50% artist, 50% scientist. If you have the Oracle (2GPP) and one scientist (3GPP) the split is still 50% 50% (rather than 40% 60% you would expect if it was weighted to account for the number of GPP's produced).

The final probability for getting a certain GP considers the number of turns that GPP's were accumulated and gives each an equal weighting. e.g you have been accumulating GPP's for 25 turns, each turn makes up 4% of the total split.

So, for Athens, if we spend 25 turn accumulating GPP's (each turn is worth 4%) but one of those turns we only had one artist hired we would get a 100% chance for that one turn. This gives us an 100% x 4% = 4% total chance for Great Artist.

It would be better to hire a scientist and an artist for one turn meaning the artist contamination would only be 50% x 4% = 2%.

And I reiterate Fred : Don't forget to fire him :eek:

Be reading while playing a BOTM02 test game. Lots of interesting ideas and discussion. :goodjob:

Let me take a stab at summary and alteration of the plan from above.

Cities
Ironsite - I am a bit unclear on the priority of the Galley. Can we finish the Sword first while the Gold is mined and the other Worker begins the chop of the eastern forest. My calculations say that after 4-turns for the Sword, we should get the Galley 7-turns later. If we change to Galley immediately, then it is 8 turns to Galley and then Sword.
Athens - Hire both a Scientist and an Artist for 1-turn to get cultural growth next turn. Then fire them and concentrate on growing Athens. 2-Workers remain to improve the Copper and Sheep.
Carthage - Carthage has 5-turns of resistance remaining. During that time, using the 2-Workers there, we begin pre-chopping the forests. There are 8-forests that will be within Carthage's expanded cross. We have to save two of those forests; one for WB to go to Athens' to work Clam and the other to chop a Missionary for Athens. So we'll need 4-Workers from Athens to work Carthage.
Timbuktu - With the early chop of Athens, we will have the money to upgrade the Shock promoted Warrior to an Axeman. The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior. The Confucian Missionary will proceed to Carthage to convert the city and we'll then chop another Missionary for Athens.

Worker actions
The changes have been discussed above.
The difference in allocation is that of the Workers in Athens, four will go to Carthage, two will remain in Athens and the last one will go to Ivoryville. Priority the is the Cow tile and then a couple of Ivories, depending upon how timing is in getting Workers to Gold City to chop.

Military
Turn 127) saw two archers in Sparta, the next turn there were three archers there
This was 16 turns ago. Once we get on the grass hill overlooking Sparta, we'll see what is there. Hope it is still three archers, or better, one!! ;)
Now a question, is it OK to remain on the hill spying or will that cause the AI to pop-rush more Archers? :hmm:

The only difference here is upgrading the Warrior in Tim and escorting the Missionary out of the city to Carthage.
Also, the Northern Warriors push out towards Gold City site to bust the fog up there.

Techs
Here is some difference.
I estimate a minimum of 6 turns for the Missionary to reach Carthage. I propose we research Hunting first (Ivory Camps), then Monotheism (revolt to Organized Religion), then we research Meditation and then Construction. We can see what we need from there.

If I left something important out, please let me know so we can amend this again? :mischief:

Nice work!! :thumbsup:

But a workboat won't be useful for anything else. A galley will be useful for building a bridge city if possible, or for upgrading to a galleon later. Strongly agree with this logic.



I think we're actually in pretty good shape vs barbs. Tim's warrior can be upgraded to an axe and (fingers crossed) kill the warrior and archer. Tim should be safe after that. Our newest warrior can fogbust the area around the future Gold City. After the swordsman kills the archer approaching Ivoryville, the warrior there can go fogbust the jungle to the north in preparation for building Horse City. We only need a max of 2 CR3 swords to go take care of Sparta (in my test games, one was always enough). Athens is pretty safe now with two axemen on duty. A single unit placed in the jungle near the new barb city should keep it occupied. That sounds right to me, and at some point before barb axes start showing up, it would be good to get a chariot out and about.

I think we need the gold from all 7. Yes

"The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior." I haven't looked at this on the save, but it would seem likely that the missionary could proceed without escort if he moves cautiously -- that is, he saves a move (or two tiles, if on a road) at the end of each turn so that he doesn't confront a barb without the possibility of retreating. This doesn't work through difficult terrain (or perhaps traveling adjacent to a road), but can't he take a suitable route to avoid such?

Carthage - Carthage has 5-turns of resistance remaining. During that time, using the 2-Workers there, we begin pre-chopping the forests. There are 8-forests that will be within Carthage's expanded cross. We have to save two of those forests; one for WB to go to Athens' to work Clam and the other to chop a Missionary for Athens. So we'll need 4-Workers from Athens to work Carthage.

I think we need to chop all 8 forests in the fat cross into gold. I would suggest that you send the two workers in Carthage to chop two forests outside the fat cross W of Carthage and use those hammers to build the missionary for Athens.

Timbuktu - With the early chop of Athens, we will have the money to upgrade the Shock promoted Warrior to an Axeman. The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior. The Confucian Missionary will proceed to Carthage to convert the city and we'll then chop another Missionary for Athens.

Don't forget to hire an extra scientist here. The city will starve for a while but when the rice is improved we can stop the starvation again.

Ironsite - I am a bit unclear on the priority of the Galley. Can we finish the Sword first while the Gold is mined and the other Worker begins the chop of the eastern forest. My calculations say that after 4-turns for the Sword, we should get the Galley 7-turns later. If we change to Galley immediately, then it is 8 turns to Galley and then Sword.

It's seems ok to me to finish the sword first if you think it is needed for defense. If the settler in York is 15 turns away, and the galley's main purpose is to build on cow island if a bridge is possible, then getting the galley in 11 turns serves its purpose.

Worker actionsThe difference in allocation is that of the Workers in Athens, four will go to Carthage, two will remain in Athens and the last one will go to Ivoryville. Priority the is the Cow tile and then a couple of Ivories, depending upon how timing is in getting Workers to Gold City to chop.

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.

[Military
This was 16 turns ago. Once we get on the grass hill overlooking Sparta, we'll see what is there. Hope it is still three archers, or better, one!! ;)
Now a question, is it OK to remain on the hill spying or will that cause the AI to pop-rush more Archers? :hmm:

I seem to remember that our CR3 swords are ~94% to win against the archers in Sparta. If there are more than two archers in Sparta, just kill two on the first go, heal, and kill some more. Two swords can heal faster than Sparta can produce more archers. Without any improvements there, it's dead.

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.

This makes sense, only make sure that we are ready to chop gold in Carthage around 15 turns from now since that is about the time when we run out of cash again. Prechopping 8 forests require aminimum of 5*8=40 worker turns when you include a turn to move to the forest so 2 workers (2*15=30 worker turns) are not enough - more so because they must also chop a missionary using forests outside the fat cross. We could perhaps use only one worker to improve tiles in Athens. We dont need the copper tile that much in the phase when we grow the city and run many scientists.

I think we need to chop all 8 forests in the fat cross into gold. I would suggest that you send the two workers in Carthage to chop two forests outside the fat cross W of Carthage and use those hammers to build the missionary for Athens.

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.
:hmm: Took another look at this. There are 5-turns until Carthage comes out of resistance. Perhaps it would be better to keep 2-Workers near Athens, send one to Carthage directly and send the other 4 to Ivoryville, chop two more Workers at Ivoryville before sending what we need to chop 8-forests at Carthage?

And we will use forests outside the fat cross for Work Boat and Missionary, although at 24 hammers per chop, that is an additional 4 to 5 forests.

It's seems ok to me to finish the sword first if you think it is needed for defense. If the settler in York is 15 turns away, and the galley's main purpose is to build on cow island if a bridge is possible, then getting the galley in 11 turns serves its purpose.

I seem to remember that our CR3 swords are ~94% to win against the archers in Sparta. If there are more than two archers in Sparta, just kill two on the first go, heal, and kill some more. Two swords can heal faster than Sparta can produce more archers. Without any improvements there, it's dead.
We could delay the Sword in Ironsite based upon this. There are 4-CR3 Swords available, once they heal, near Carthage. That should be more than enough. That frees up 2-Axes and a Sword to go Barb Hunting. One Axe will need to visit the new Barb city while another could go north to support Gold City.

Don't forget to hire an extra scientist here. The city will starve for a while but when the rice is improved we can stop the starvation again.
Yes, sorry, I missed this in my midnight haze... :mischief:
:thanx:

EDIT - May have some time this afternoon to start on this. That would be about 4 to 5 hours from the time of this post.

Looks like you are ready to go! Good luck!

Like the plan. What about upgrading warrior to sword, rather than axe -- thinking it would prove more useful in the long term? We already have 2 axes and will build a chariot(s) to deal with barb axes and thereby gain the medic promotion. (At this level a single promoted chariot is also pretty reliable against archers.)

Good luck, leif.

Just did some calculations on worker actions:

Let's say that after the mass chop at Athens on turn 144, we leave 1 worker to pasture the sheep, 4 go to Ivoryville to chop and improve tiles, and two go on to Carthage. The 2 workers at Tim stay up there to improve tiles and build roads. The workers at Ironsite finish the gold mine together and then chop the forest to the east together, and later go help with elephant camps. The 2 workers at Carthage go to chop 2 forests outside the fat cross (but only 2). After cows are pastured and 2 forests are chopped for Ivoryville, 4 out of the 7 workers there can go to Carthage (there is a newly built worker and 2 from Ironsite still at Ivoryville). That gives us 8 workers ready to finish the chop in Carthage in ~16 turns. If 16 turns is not fast enough, we can send one of Tim's workers to help prechop.

Now if we expect the current workers in Carthage to chop two forests each (for the workboat and missionary), the big chop in Carthage gets delayed, or the improvements in Ivoryville get delayed. I was thinking that maybe a better solution would be to send Athens's worker towards Sparta after it finished the sheep (the copper is not very useful right now, because we already want to continue to work the gold mine, and another low food tile will really hurt our GP farming). We should be ready to capture Sparta by the time the worker arrives there, and it can start chopping while Sparta is in revolt. Sparta is five turns closer to the clams than Carthage, so we wouldn't lose much or any time getting the workboat over there. Trying to chop a workboat and a missionary in Carthage involves some painful tradeoffs.

Like the plan. What about upgrading warrior to sword, rather than axe...

I think warriors can't be upgraded to swordsmen.

Starting now, nervously!! ;)
So much to keep in mind. :crazyeye:

@Shannon - I will probably use your ideas on Workers. Sparta will also need a Work Boat and it has only three forests. So producing two Work Boats there may be the best thing to do.

@CP - Warriors will only upgrade to Axes, at least it is the only choice I am given. :rolleyes:

Good luck leif!

I've been reading the discussion and agree with what has been proposed (excellent work Xteamers!).

Go get 'em :ar15:

Just a reminder to be careful moving workers and missionaries around the fog, especially when there is a fogged road ahead.

Having not used it before I've been testing the Gold Chop today and found an interesting aspect to it. We can give up a little gold in the chop for speed. Once a city has reached size 2 it can whip a wall without any hammers in the box for only 1 pop and still net 600 gold from 5 forest chops. Obvivously our best results is to wait until there is only 1 production turn remaining on the wall build to net in the 720 gold range, but there is no requirement for it to be at 1 turn. In my Test 2 I whipped after only 1 turn of production and when my treasury was less than the gold required to maintain 100% research. Based on this I netted 660 gold, only 60 gold less than max but was able to chop a full 7 turns earlier.

-----------------------------------------
Gold Wall Chop Test
City Size 2
Wall cost 75 hammers

Test 1: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops when 1 production turn left on wall

Gold in Treasury: 128
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 72/75
Hammers in wall post whip: 207/75 this converts to 132 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 813 gold
128 -36 + 663 +132 - 75 = 812
Net gold gain: 720
Hammer carryover of 25 to next build


Test 2: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops when more than 1 production turn left on wall (but costs only 1 pop to whip)
Gold in Treasury: 12
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 9/75 (1 turn into build)
Hammers in wall post whip: 144/75 this converts to 69 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 660 gold
(12 -36) + 663 + 69 - 75 = should be around 633, but game gave 660, however game adjusted research slider
So order of math becomes: Treasury +/- gpt capped at zero, then into the chop conversions
Net gold gain: 660 when our treasury is less then -gpt required to stay at 100% research
Hammer carryover of 25 to next build

Test 3: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops with 0 in box
Gold in Treasury: 2
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 0/75
Hammers in wall post whip: 90/75 this converts to 15 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 605 gold
(2 -36) + 663 +15 - 75 = should be around 569, but game gave 605, however game adjusted research slider
So order of math becomes: Treasury +/- gpt capped at zero, then into the chop conversions
Net gold gain: 603 when our treasury is less then -gpt required to stay at 100% research
Hammer carryover of 25 0 to next build (Updated after verifying)

-----------------------

When treasury is too small to support -gpt, research rate is auto adjusted but if our treasury is greater than the 36 gold then research remains at 100% in both Test 2 & 3. If treasury too small we need to set research to 0% before game adjust slider and bank the extra gold.


Only difference in the 3 tests are the "Hammers in wall post whip" and our whip adds 180 hammers in Test 1 & 2 but only 90 in Test 3 (empty box start). Wouldn't recommend doing this from an empty box unless we are flat broke and 1 turn is critical.


----------------------


Good luck leif!

So Gator, your tests showed that:

During the in-between-turn, the gold from the chop overflow gets added on after the resolution of the slider and treasury-applied-to-research phase.

If we chop on the same turn that our treasury would go below 0 at 100% research, the game will adjust the slider thinking there is a deficit (despite getting a huge ammount of gold applied the next turn) and we suffer one turn at less than 100% research.

Right?

I've played 12 turns. Everything was going pretty well until the chop that was meant for Carthage and the Missionary went instead to Ivoryville. :rolleyes:

The question is should we bulb Philosophy and revolt to Pacifism or wait until Confucianism is in Athens?

I will attach the current save below:

The question is should we bulb Philosophy and revolt to Pacifism or wait until Confucianism is in Athens?

Tough question. My initial thought was that it would be better to revolt after the missionary is built so that he can move during anarchy thus saving a turn. Another thing you could do is to move 3 workers to the forest NW of Carthage and build a road. The problem is that this will delay the chop too much....

OK - here's an idea. Move the worker from the wine tile onto the NW forest and build road in 2 turns. When the missionary is built revolt to Pacifism. The anarchy will give us a free turn for moving the missionary and for chopping. Move the nearest worker from Ivoryville to the forest that is still missing 5 turns of chopping. Use 2 workers to improve the Ivory so that we can get an extra happy face in Athens and MM Athens for maximum growth (work water tiles instead of plains). MM Ivoryville to use the cow or the iron tile instead of the plains tile. When our axes in Timbuktu have healed they might as well move out from the city so they can assume defensive positions around the city thus protecting our improvements.

Btw. it's looking good - we have Sparta and the chop is on schedule.

Our military is starting to cost us some maintenance, about 20 GPT, iirc.

Also, it is interesting that I have not seen any Barb Axes but the first Barb Sword appeared near Tim this turn.

I think your idea should work fine. :thumbsup: I was concerned that there was something that would prevent us from spreading religion or something else. Keeping track of Worker turns has been, well, interesting. :crazyeye: ;) :D

I have a meeting that I must attend this evening, hopefully I can finish up the last few turns before bed. :sleep:

Another thing: I think next tech should be Calendar - Athens will grow to size 10 in no time and we badly need to get those spices hooked...

Another thing: I think next tech should be Calendar - Athens will grow to size 10 in no time and we badly need to get those spices hooked...
Yes, I agree.

We will also know about the culture bridge within a turn or two. I will probably pass it off once we have the settler and know whether a culture bridge is possible or not.

:thanx:

And maximize food in Carthage until Pacifism then hire 4 scientists. It must follow Timbuktu wrt GP points.

So Gator, your tests showed that:

During the in-between-turn, the gold from the chop overflow gets added on after the resolution of the slider and treasury-applied-to-research phase.

If we chop on the same turn that our treasury would go below 0 at 100% research, the game will adjust the slider thinking there is a deficit (despite getting a huge ammount of gold applied the next turn) and we suffer one turn at less than 100% research.

Right?

Correct, research slider is adjusted based on the treasury prior to hammer conversion to gold. I updated Test 3 to reflect a zero hammer carryover to next build.

BTW, when we are in OR those same 5 forest will yield 718 instead of the 663 for a max gold gain of 786 vrs the 720 gold from Test 1. So it appears that we do not get the full 25% bonus on the chops in OR. I was expecting the forest yield to be 825 not 718.

Everything was going pretty well until the chop that was meant for Carthage and the Missionary went instead to Ivoryville. :rolleyes: :


If you hover with the mouse over the square it'll tell you which city it's going to.

During my lunchbreak I reviewed the save: my comments were very similar to Fred’s.

In addition:

Timbuktu can also work the best food/commerce tiles instead of scientist until 4 scientists are hired in Carthage and the two cities grow their Great Scientists in parallel.

The next tiles to be improved at Ivoryville after the 2 workers finish the elephant camp should be cows then iron.

Athens can wait until Confu is spread there before hiring scientists since it will catch up eventually. Growth should be prioritised in the meantime

Move first settler towards horse city (may want to provide an additional fog buster to head to horse city right now.)

Could move a warrior from Timbuktu to fogbust a hill next to the copper on the northern peninsula.

One possible problem:

Athens will probably become the Taoist holy city since it is our largest city without religion. This will mean we don’t have a sure bet of spreading Confu there…

Athens current happy cap = 7
+1 Ivory = 8
+1 religion = 9
-1 Calendar (lose the happy monument bonus??) = 8
+1 Spices = 9
+1 Dye (by Timbuktu) = 10

err i forgot we are settled on a dye and will get that +1 immediately

Timbuktu can also work the best food/commerce tiles instead of scientist until 4 scientists are hired in Carthage and the two cities grow their Great Scientists in parallel.

I would prefer full speed ahead for now. We can always slow down GP points somewhere when the next GP draws closer

Move first settler towards horse city (may want to provide an additional fog buster to head to horse city right now.)

I would prefer gold City first because it's faster to improve and it can contribute to our tech speed with the gold mine.


One possible problem:

Athens will probably become the Taoist holy city since it is our largest city without religion. This will mean we don’t have a sure bet of spreading Confu there…

d'oh! Any solution? Maybe start building another missionary in Carthage to have a backup that can be chopped immediately if the first one fails?

Athens current happy cap = 7
+1 Ivory = 8
+1 religion = 9
-1 Calendar (lose the happy monument bonus??) = 8
+1 Spices = 9
+1 Dye (by Timbuktu) = 10

Dyes come online immediately since London was settled on dyes.

Edit: X-posted.

There are 2 more happy resources available in the south tundra that are not near cities (silver and fur). We may want to target those spots soon, just to improve our other cities.

In Athens, as Fred and JT have mentioned, we are working a regular plain hill and an unmined copper hill for a total of 1f/4h/0c instead of moving them to coastal tiles should we go ahead and make them scientist? Although if we are revolting in 2 turns then it is better to work the coast and hire the scientist at double the points.

Athens will probably become the Taoist holy city since it is our largest city without religion. This will mean we don’t have a sure bet of spreading Confu there…

d'oh! Any solution? Maybe start building another missionary in Carthage to have a backup that can be chopped immediately if the first one fails?

Carthage is about to grow to size 6, do we want to poprush something in Athens for 1 pop to take it back to size 6 prior to bulbing Tao? Athens can recover the growth quickly and this makes it a toss-up between Athens and Carthage for the Holy City.

Carthage is about to grow to size 6, do we want to poprush something in Athens for 1 pop to take it back to size 6 prior to bulbing Tao? Athens can recover the growth quickly and this makes it a toss-up between Athens and Carthage for the Holy City.

No, our Astronomy strategy relies on caste system and high popn in our 3 gp farms. Plus, Carthage can't be Holy city because it has Confu already (I think the general rule is the largest sized city without a religion).

I think we have to risk founding Taosim as we are now, there is still a good chance of our missionary being successful.

Our contingency can be either :
1) delaying the revolt to Pacifism until we have chpped another missionary in Carthage (using forests outside the fat cross or even using one of the chops going into the walls for a big reduction in gold) - this gives us good backup but slows us down regardless of whether our first missionary is succesful or not.
2) chopping monestary and then missionary in Carthage once we see our missionary has failed (using forests outside the fat cross) this will set us back considerably but only if the missionary fails.

I choose option 2.

I wonder what the chance of success for spreading religion is?

Seems like we have around a 90% chance to spread religion to Athens if there is one other religion present.

This thread is very old, but hopefully true...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188878

Playing again.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Bulbed Philosophy and the Holy City is York!! :rolleyes:

Tough question. My initial thought was that it would be better to revolt after the missionary is built so that he can move during anarchy thus saving a turn.

Move the worker from the wine tile onto the NW forest and build road in 2 turns. When the missionary is built revolt to Pacifism. The anarchy will give us a free turn for moving the missionary and for chopping. Move the nearest worker from Ivoryville to the forest that is still missing 5 turns of chopping.

Yes, finish the missionary and revolt to Pacifism ASAP. Maximize food and population in Athens until it is getting the benefit of Pacifism.

Ivoryville is really underdeveloped now. It needs to get to at least Pop9 to fulfill its potential as a troop factory. MM for max food now and use our whole work force from Carthage to improve cows, iron, ivory, and hills after Carthage is chopped.

Our military is starting to cost us some maintenance, about 20 GPT, iirc.

The Unit Supply cost is something we can actually do something about. When Sparta and Carthage's borders expand shortly (Sparta should hire an artist for a few turns), the fogbusters around that area can return to our borders.

Another thing: I think next tech should be Calendar - Athens will grow to size 10 in no time and we badly need to get those spices hooked...

Sounds fine.

Playing again.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Bulbed Philosophy and the Holy City is York!! :rolleyes:

That's good and not surprising. Any city without a religion had a good chance of being the Taoist holy city. Higher population is slightly favored but not much.

My apologies as I messed up the chop in Carthage. I had it all set and went back and checked it and made a mistake, chopping a forest. So six got chopped instead of 8. The display said two turns so I chopped it to make it one, but the forest came down... So I had to cut the rest that were available or we would have had Walls and no Gold.

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_BC0130_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 143 – 355 BC
Hire a fourth Scientist in Timbuktu, Great Scientist due in 11 turns.
Hire a Scientist and an Artist in Athens.
Move the Sword near Athens towards Ivoryville.
Move the Confucian Missionary out of Timbuktu and south towards Ivoryville, headed for Carthage.
Check cities, looks like we’re ready to roll.

IBT
Barbs move towards Tim.
The Barb Archer near Ivoryville destroys a road tile.
We discover Hunting and start research on Monotheism.
The English Empire now holds half a million souls.
Athens expands due to culture.

Turn 144 – 340 BC
Fire the Artist and Scientist in Athens.
Place Walls first in the queue in Athens.
Warrior heals in Tim but I don’t have the Gold to upgrade him this turn. :blush:
Chop all seven forests in Athens.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/340BC_Athens_after_chop.jpg

Move both Workers to Gold hill near Ironsite.
Move both Workers near Tim into the city to protect them from Barbs.
Change Carthage build from Work Boat to Walls.
Move Carthage Workers out to begin pre-chops.
Move Missionary south, Axes northwest.

IBT
Barb Archer bear Ivoryville attacks our Sword and dies.
Barb Warrior near Tim destroys road, Archer joins him on the same tile.

Turn 145 – 325 BC
We receive nearly 900 Gold from the chop at Athens.
Upgrade shock promoted Axeman in Tim to Axe for 110 Gold.
At Athens, one Worker moves to Pasture the Sheep tile while the others begin movement towards Ivoryville.
Missionary reaches Ivoryville area, now with two Axes nearby, phew…

IBT
Barb Archer attacks city and dies.
Another Barb Archer shows up to Timbuktu’s east, near the Banana tile.
London Sword => Sword.
Athens Granary => Barracks.

Turn 146 – 310 BC
Use Gator’s trick to check for cultural tiles to our east, nothing near the scouting Work Boat.
Axe from Tim attacks a Barb Warrior and kills him.
Tim Workers begin farming the Rice tile.
Our northern Warrior (4-tiles NW of Tim) finds a Barb Warrior, we are on a forested hill.
Sword born in London moves NE on Barb watch duty.
Sword moves to view Sparta. They’ve been busy as the Horse tile is Pastured and connected. :eek:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/310BC_Sparta.jpg

The Barb city of Bantu
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/310BC_Bantu.jpg

IBT
A Barb Archer appears near our northernmost Warrior near the Gold City site. The Barb Warrior heads for Tim. The Barb Archer east of Tim heads for Tim. Tim is a Barb attractor!!
We discover Monotheism start on Meditation.
Ironsite Sword => Galley.

Turn 147 – 295 BC
I move the Sword overlooking Sparta towards the Horse tile.
Athens Workers moved to chop at Ivoryville. One Worker repairs road pillaged by Barb Archer.
Missionary moves near Carthage.
CR3 Swords head for Sparta.
Revolt to Organized Religion

IBT
Barbs converge on Tim.

Turn 148 – 280 BC
Begin chopping near Ironsite.
Carthage gets out of resistance. Missionary arrives and Carthage is now Confucian.
Move Sword onto Horse tile to pillage next turn.
Change Ivoryville build to Worker.
Set Carthage citizen to work emphasizing food for growth.
Change build in Carthage from Walls to Missionary (for Athens).

IBT
Another Barb Archer shows coming from east of Tim.
Barb Archer near city moves towards Banana tile on the west side.
Barb Warrior moves towards Tim from the northwest.
They’re everywhere!! :eek:
We discover Meditation and start on Construction.

Turn 149 – 265 BC
Pillage Horse Pasture near Sparta for 5 Gold.
Chop two forests in Ivoryville into a Worker.

IBT
Barbs surround Tim…
Ivoryville Worker => Granary

Turn 150 – 250 BC
Axeman brought up from Carthage area attacks Barb Archer near Tim and kills him without loss.
Axeman from inside Tim attacks a Barb Warrior and kills him, now 4.5/5.
Athens grows to pop 5 and will grow again in two turns and be unhappy, that is about the time we should take Sparta, so we’ll let it grow. We work all the food tiles plus the Gold hill.
London grows so we work the mined grass hill.
Ironsite grows and we work both Gold hills.
Start moving Workers to Carthage.

IBT
Herodotus writes that we are the wealthiest civ.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/235BC_Wealth.jpg

Two Barb Archers move on Tim.

Turn 151 – 235 BC
Chop completes near Ironsite, Galley due in 4-turns.
Send one worker to mine the Grass hill. The other to build an Ivory Camp.
Move Workers around.
Axe attacks and kills a Barb Archer near Tim, now 2.8/5.

IBT
Barb Archer moves onto Tim’s Rice tile.
Another Barb shows SW of Tim.
London Sword => Settler. (Our unit costs are mounting.)
Athens grows to size 6 and becomes unhappy.

Turn 152 – 220 BC
Worker leaves Athens area headed for Ivoryville.
Time to attack Sparta.
The city contains three Archers, two Workers and a Work Boat, too bad we can’t capture the Work Boat?
CR3 Sword attacks a City Garrison 1 Archer at 88.4% and kills him.
CR3 Sword attacks an Archer at 98.1% and kills him.
CR2 Sword attacks an Archer at 85.7% and kills him, we take the city plus 128 Gold.
We keep the city and its two Workers! Set production to Work Boat. The city will have 4-turns of Resistance.

At Timbuktu, an Axe attacks a Barb Archer on our Rice tile at 97.3% and kills him.

IBT
A Barb Archer moves onto the farmed Banana tile west of Tim.

Turn 153 – 205 BC
Our Axes in Tim have to heal, so I can’t attack the Barb Archer on the Bananas.
What?? The chop intended for Carthage went to Ivoryville instead. :mad:

IBT
A Barb Sword appears east of Tim.
Barb Archer pillages irrigated Banana tile near Tim.
Ivoryville Granary => Worker.

Turn 154 – 190 BC
Axeman attacks Barb Archer south of Athens and kills him.
Axeman at Tim kills a Barb Archer on the Banana tile.


IBT
Barb Sword moves towards Tim.
Barb Warrior appears south of Athens.
Ironsite Galley => Barracks.
Gallileo Galilei, our first Great Scientist is born in Tim.

Turn 155 – 175 BC
Go through Worker actions.
Save game and go ask team for assistance.
Reload game.
Change citizens in Athens to sea tiles.
Based upon JT’s research, decide to use the Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy.
Interesting that our Holy City for Taoism is York? Fine by me!
Save Taoist Missionary to send to Gold City to aid in cultural expansion?

IBT
Barb Warrior attacks Axe near Athens and dies.
Barb Sword moves SW, like it is heading for the Barb City?
Construction comes in and we start research on Calendar.
Ivoryville Worker => Barracks.
Athens Barracks => Catapult.
Carthage’s borders expand.

Turn 156 – 160 BC
Sparta comes out of resistance. Move a Worker to Horses and begin Pasture.
Hire an Artist in Sparta.
Reallocate citizens in Carthage for food and to ensure Missionary next turn.

IBT
Barb Sword moves towards Ivoryville.
Barb Sword continues south away from Timbuktu.
York Settler => Catapult.
Carthage Confucian Missionary => Walls.

Turn 157 – 145 BC
Move Galley and determine there is no culture bridge at Cow Island.
Move Workers away form Ivory Camp building near Ivoryville to avoid a Barb Sword. Move our Sword to intercept.
Begin moving a couple of Swords from Sparta that are healed towards Ivoryville.
Make a stack of a Sword, Settler and Taoist Missionary and begin moving towards Gold City.
Move Confucian Missionary towards Athens.
Revolt to Pacifism.

IBT
Our first Barb Axe appears out of the northern forest near the northern Horse tile.
Barb Sword heads for irrigated tile near Timbuktu.
Barb Sword moves next to Ivoryville.

Turn 158 – 130 BC
Hire four Scientists in Carthage.
Perform Worker actions around Carthage.
Move Missionary towards Athens.
Sword in Ivoryville upgrades to Combat1 and Shock and attacks Barb Sword at 88.7% and kills him, he has 0.2 of 6 remaining. :eek:
There are two Workers under the Sword near Ivoryville. The Ivory to the west has one turn for the two workers to complete the camp, I think. Try one first and see if the other is needed. That will solve Athens unhappiness.
I chopped a forest by accident at Carthage and I must chop as many as I can now. I chopped six of them. I knew I shouldn’t play when it got late… :mad:
I apologize, dumb!!
Decide to save and hand off here.

After Action Report.
Major objectives are complete. Carthage has been chopped...

There is no culture bridge possible from Cow Island. I left the galley there for you to check on this. The settler from York is headed for Gold city with a Sword and a Taoist Missionary in tow. Beware the Axe to its north. We are two turns from completing the Pasture near Sparta so we can build a Chariot in York or London to deal with the Barb Axe. The Sword could upgrade to Combat1 and Shock if needed.

There are four Scientists in both Timbuktu and Carthage as we are in Pacifism.

The two forests west and NW of Sparta have been pre-chopped. Please check the display to see how many more turns are needed.

There is 150 Gold in the treasury and we are consuming 89 GPT. :eek:

There is 150 Gold in the treasury and we are consuming 89 GPT.

But Carthage's gold chop will come in at the beginning of the next turn for over 800 gold (too late for math :) ).

Overall looks good. :goodjob: I'll look at the save in the morning.

What is the overall timeframe on getting to galleon? Do we have time to start adding more cities so we can get rid of the barbs? Once we start fighting overseas we don't want to be worried about barbs at home.

Well done leif :goodjob:.

The unplanned chop in Carthage is probably a minor thing - we could decide to chop the 3 forests in Sparta into gold and use the extra forests in Carthage to chop the work boat.

Thanks, but I am still a bit upset with myself. :cringe:

Roster:
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ShannonCT - On Deck
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Cactus Pete
Jimmy Thunder
Leif - just played!

Barb Swords and Axes are starting to appear, so getting the Horses hooked up will be important.

The Great People should start appearing in 12 turns, iirc. Researching to Machinery is the bottleneck I think. After Calender we have to get Metal Casting, Compass and Machinery. Chopping for Gold is the only way to get us there quickly.

Building Gold City and Horse City will help keep Barb surprises down, I think. The area to the east of Tim we'll have to post Warriors or something to keep it tame.

The Great People should start appearing in 12 turns, iirc. Researching to Machinery is the bottleneck I think. After Calender we have to get Metal Casting, Compass and Machinery. Chopping for Gold is the only way to get us there quickly.

Building Gold City and Horse City will help keep Barb surprises down, I think. The area to the east of Tim we'll have to post Warriors or something to keep it tame.

Chopping gold will not in itself increase tech rate. Only by working more tiles with a high yield of gold can we improve tech pace. In my test game I was doing 150 bpt in the end assisted by two gold mines in Gold City, dyes in Timbuktu and some riverbank cottages in Horse city. If we have available workers to build plantations we should consider capturing Bantu when we know Calendar. It can work some pretty good tiles like riverbank dyes.

I agree that one or two fogbusters in the vast jungle east of Timbuktu should reduce the barb problems a lot.

The unplanned chop in Carthage is probably a minor thing - we could decide to chop the 3 forests in Sparta into gold and use the extra forests in Carthage to chop the work boat.
I think we should review our need for scouting with the eastern Work Boat. It is near Carthage and hasn't found a thing. We could send it to Athens immediately to support the Great Scientist effort there?

For me, it seems pretty clear that we will need Astronomy.

I started building Cats in some of our cities. Is there an maximum number of units we should build, considering unit maintenance in Pacifism?

I think we should review our need for scouting with the eastern Work Boat. It is near Carthage and hasn't found a thing. We could send it to Athens immediately to support the Great Scientist effort there?


We should at least consider this. We could use the forests in Carthage to chop a granary.

I started building Cats in some of our cities. Is there an maximum number of units we should build, considering unit maintenance in Pacifism?

I think we should just build away. The more the merrier :ar15: :D . I do, think that we should think about what units we will need for our first wave of attack. Cat's of course - preferably promoted against barbs. Medic charriots. A couple of Elephants. Galleys for upgrade to galleons. And we shouldn't forget to build a settler that will get us the gold from chopping we need to do the upgrading.

Well done leif :goodjob:.

The unplanned chop in Carthage is probably a minor thing - we could decide to chop the 3 forests in Sparta into gold and use the extra forests in Carthage to chop the work boat.

I think we do need to recover Carthage's lost gold in Sparta. I don't know if it's worth sending a third worker down there to help though when there are so many other tasks for our workers. Maybe after the two workers at Sparta finish the horse pasture they can chop one forest together to finish the workboat with the overflow going into walls, and then they chop the other two forests into the walls for gold. That should give us ~200 gold there. Carthage's forests will be good for a granary. It looks like our exploratory workboat isn't going to find anything, so it can go to Sparta's fish.

For our other workers: of the 8 at Carthage right now, how many do we leave there? Carthage will be occupied with the GS for 12 turns, so the copper and horses don't need to be done until then. Spices are the most important, for Athens's sake. Maybe we leave 3 workers there and of the