There is an issue with the gold chop city - we don't have any easy means of border expansion. Monuments are obsolete and we need slavery ASAP to get our attack rolling so we can't hire artists.

The solution is probably to chop without border expansion. In that case we could put the city SE of the original site where there would be 7 forests inside cultural borders and 1 outside that we can chop.

Just place it wherever will maximize gold, considering that forests chopped inside borders will give 132 gold and forests outside give 87.

Also remember that Parthian and Stone City need to be connected to our trade network before finishing the gold chop. They are not connected right now. I forgot this at first at Bantu and wasted a couple worker-turns going back to build a road.

I noticed that London doesn't have a granary. Should we build one or is it too late to have any impact? London will grow when the bananas are developed and the prospect of running bureaucracy means that London is more important than other cities.

I think it's too late for the granary and it may be too late for bureaucracy as well. The decisions to revolt to paganism and bureaucracy have to weighed against our hammers per turn and against the surplus food per turn in cities we are whipping. One turn of revolt may cause us to lose 150 hammer equivalents.

Also remember that Parthian and Stone City need to be connected to our trade network before finishing the gold chop. They are not connected right now. I forgot this at first at Bantu and wasted a couple worker-turns going back to build a road.
Just checked, Gold City is connected and, I believe, Parthian will be as well once out of resistance. They are connected by Sailing through coastal tiles. We should be all set for the chops.

Also remember that Parthian and Stone City need to be connected to our trade network before finishing the gold chop. They are not connected right now. I forgot this at first at Bantu and wasted a couple worker-turns going back to build a road.

Thanks for the warning, I wil look into that. I'm pretty sure that Parthian is not coastal.

I think it's too late for the granary and it may be too late for bureaucracy as well. The decisions to revolt to paganism and bureaucracy have to weighed against our hammers per turn and against the surplus food per turn in cities we are whipping. One turn of revolt may cause us to lose 150 hammer equivalents.

It all depends on the number of turns left in the game. Some time ago I predicted that the 3 unknown AI would have around 18 cities and if we can capture 1 city every 3 turns on average the war should last around 60 turns. Is that realistic or will we be faster or slower? A granary costs 90 hammers or 2 pop if you whip. So if a city has time to grow 4 pop with a granary (2 pop without) I guess the granary will pay off. There is, however, also the consideration that we may need an extra WE more right now...

I'm quite sure that we will profit from Bureaucracy. Just take 50% of Londons food+hammers and gold and multiply with 50 turns. Going back to paganism is less clear to me. How much gold will we save?

Thanks for the warning, I will look into that. I'm pretty sure that Parthian is not coastal.
You're correct about Parthian, it needs a road. Should look more closely before the morning :coffee:

I'm quite sure that we will profit from Bureaucracy. Just take 50% of Londons food+hammers and gold and multiply with 50 turns. Going back to paganism is less clear to me. How much gold will we save?
:hmm:
This is less clear than I thought.
We have 34 military units (including our navy). We have 17 Workers and two Great Scientists, a total of 53.
We are paying 31 GPT for 31 units (we get free support for 22 units) = total of 53.
Then we are paying 26 GPT for Military Unit Support under Pacifism (we get free unit support for 8 units)
Then we get a credit of 23 GPT that is labeled Handicap Cost. Our total then is 31+26-23=34 GPT
Changing civics should return to us 26 GPT, so it looks to me that we will be paying 8 GPT once we change civics, a savings of 26 GPT?

Pacifism is free, so there is no Civic Upkeep cost associated with it. Changing to Paganism adds +5 GPT while changing to Organized Religion adds +11 GPT.

It would seem that changing to Paganism will result in a savings of 21 GPT? Unless something else pops in as a cost. I believe we will also save 1 GPT for each military unit we build. It seems that Paganism is the way to go... :D

It would seem that changing to Paganism will result in a savings of 21 GPT? Unless something else pops in as a cost. I believe we will also save 1 GPT for each military unit we build. It seems that Paganism is the way to go... :D

Saving that much gpt must be worth one turn of anarchy. But are you not assuming that we will have no military unit support after switching to Paganism?

Saving that much gpt must be worth one turn of anarchy. But are you not assuming that we will have no military unit support after switching to Paganism?
Yes, our numbers are: (I have to type it as I can't get a screenie. :cry: )
The amount of money spent on unit upkeep.
31 GPT - Unit cost for 31 units (free sup[port for 22)
26 GPT - Military Unit cost for 26 units (free support for 8)
-23 GPT - Handicap cost
Total = 34 GPT


The unit cost section has the following mouse over information (the numbers are just an example):

10: Unit cost for 10 units (free support for 14)
15: Military unit cost for 15 units (free support for 3)
-13: handicap cost

The first line means that your empire has 24 units. You only have to pay maintenance for 10 of them as you have a free support of 14 units. The second line shows that your empire has 18 military units (every unit except settlers, workers and missionaries). You only have to pay maintenance for 15 of them as you have a free support of 3 units. This military unit cost is usually 0 and will only have a positive number when you're running the pacifism civic. The last line is a discount and is dependent on the difficulty level of the game (it is 0 for deity level).

From the Strategy Article - Unit Maintenance Explained by Roland Johansen (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/unit_maintenance.php)

Of course, this does not take into account unit maintenance for away cost. :mischief:

Thanks for the info leif :goodjob:. I guess this speaks in favor of either doing the double civic change or doing the change 6 turns after adopting slavery.

I will start playing in an hour or so.

Thanks for the info leif :goodjob:. I guess this speaks in favor of either doing the double civic change or doing the change 6 turns after adopting slavery.
Yes, I think it does as well. SCT predicted as much earlier. :goodjob:

I don't know if you had a chance to read much of the article. The other interesting aspect is that free unit support is dependent upon the population of our cities. The rough ratio is one free unit per 4 pop points in a city. So growing our cities does more than increasing commerce, it also increases unit free support. A double win!! :woohoo:

I will start playing in an hour or so.
Good luck. :please:
:thumbsup:

I'm not sure if this is possible without delaying the departure. I'll see what I can do, but I think we should get out there ASAP with the units we have. We could fill trailing galleons with more cats.

Don't want to delay. Do the best you can with cats.

Think both civics are worth the hammers lost (and wouldn't we be saving gold from expenses).

Granary vs. additional WE -- Do we even have a ride for the WE?

Good luck Fred :goodjob:

It would seem that changing to Paganism will result in a savings of 21 GPT? Unless something else pops in as a cost. I believe we will also save 1 GPT for each military unit we build. It seems that Paganism is the way to go... :D

That's right. Pacifism is costing us 21 GPT vs. Paganism right now. Every additional unit we build is going to increase that number by 1. That number will be at least 30 GPT when we have to make the decision whether to switch (6 turns after Slavery revolt). Switching to Paganism seems like a no-brainer. The extra money lets us upgrade an additional sword/axe to a maceman every 5-6 turns. CR3 macemen will be invincible.

Switching to Paganism seems like a no-brainer. The extra money lets us upgrade an additional sword/axe to a maceman every 5-6 turns. CR3 macemen will be invincible.
Then why not do a double civic change when we change to Slavery and save an additional 21 GPT times 6 turns = 126 Gold? It wll cost us a turn now or it will cost us a turn and Gold later... :hmm: :crazyeye:

Then why not do a double civic change when we change to Slavery and save an additional 21 GPT times 6 turns = 126 Gold? It wll cost us a turn now or it will cost us a turn and Gold later... :hmm: :crazyeye:

That could be the best move. It's hard to say. How do you put a price on getting your units out one turn sooner? It may be a moot point if Fred is playing more than 6 turns now.

That could be the best move. It's hard to say. How do you put a price on getting your units out one turn sooner? It may be a moot point if Fred is playing more than 6 turns now.
That is an interesting question. Does that amount of Gold mean the difference between getting a Galley upgraded to carry those units. Or, perhaps, we get CS a turn sooner and thus Maces, that could make up that turn difference because we might take two cities at a time with Maces instead of only one with Swords? :crazyeye:

I have played my turns.

It's getting late in Denmark so I will only post a brief description of the turn set.

Most things went according to plan. We had a delay of 1 turn on Astronomy because the chop in Gold City was delayed. I played until and including most of turn 192 because there was a lot of MM'ing needed to keep our economy afloat and I didn't want to hand over a save where one small mistake could send our units into strike (Yes, we are making around 0 gold at 0% research :eek:).

The chop in Parthian is now done and we have 1237 gold in the treasury. Not enough to research CS but we have a settler due in Ivoryville in 2 turns. I whipped twice in Athens and seen in retrospect that was probably not good - we will have unhappiness there for quite a while.

Main events:

T184: We discover Astronomy :goodjob:. Two galleys are upgraded. The galley builds do not change immediately to galleon :eek:. We do the double civic change to save gold.
T185: Now the builds change. Nice - I was worried for a while...

T187: A galleon from our western fleet meet Saladin. He doesn't like strangers .
T188: Land the first forces on Arab soil and steal a worker.

T190-191: Land 6 more units outside Baghdad. A barb city has spawned between Athens and Ivoryville.

We are facing 3 archers, a chariot and a warrior in Baghdad. We have 4 swords, one WE, 2 axes and 2 cats. City defenses can be bombed down to 0 this turn (T192) so our other units have a good shot at capturing the city. I sent the worker towards home which is probably a mistake because Baghdad has many forests and we might want to keep it and build more units locally.

Baghdad:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Baghdad0000.JPG

Military:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Military0000.JPG

Barb City:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Barb_City0000.JPG

The save: 380AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_AD0380_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Nice set Shannon and good luck Fred.

I'm back home after my first trip since the surgery. I did okay traveling in the car, no significant increase in the pain/discomfort levels.

Crossposted with Fred: Well done!!!

Here is the auto generated log:

Turn 181, 215 AD: Johannes Kepler (Great Scientist) has been born in Athens (Churchill)!

Turn 182, 230 AD: The borders of Parthian have expanded!

Turn 183, 245 AD: You have discovered Machinery!

Turn 184, 260 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 184, 260 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 184, 260 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 184, 260 AD: Churchill adopts Slavery!
Turn 184, 260 AD: Confucianism has spread in Sparta.

Turn 185, 275 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 186, 290 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in Timbuktu. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 186, 290 AD: You have trained a Galleon in York. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 186, 290 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Ironsite. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.

Turn 187, 305 AD: You have declared war on Saladin!

Turn 189, 335 AD: A Forest has grown near Ivoryville!

Turn 190, 350 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Baghdad to 15%!
Turn 190, 350 AD: A Jungle has grown near Timbuktu!

Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Parthian.
Turn 191, 365 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Baghdad to 10%!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Taoism has spread in Gold City.

Gator: Glad to hear recovery is coming along!

Fred: Well done!

Xteam: The final conquest has begun!

We still have plenty to discuss about how we quickly get effective military units into the field without going bust.

One thing up our sleeve is hiring merchants under Caste System once our last military units have left the shores and slavery is not needed.

The forests in the fat cross of Baghdad look good, it's probably a keeper, although we should discuss our tactics more explicitly - looking at the pro's n con's.

I look foward to going through the save...

:clap: Hooray, we're off our home island and stirring up :trouble:
Nice work Fred!! :hatsoff:

This could be a substantial continent as I see green Arab borders from the eastern Galleon as well. So we think we know where India is, we know where Arabia is and that means we have one more to find...

Roster:
Gator - UP
rrau - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Jimmy Thunder
Leif
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg - just played! :rockon:

A bit surprised that Baghdad has no improvements? :hmm: Do you think they have been at war with someone else? Their Archer on top has enough promotions. Our CR3 Sword is only 51.6% against him. :eek:
I think the road leads to the capital? :hammer:
Looks like we have some more forests to cut to get to CS and, hopefully for upgrades. Should get some gold out of Baghdad from capture and, perhaps a chop?
EDIT - I see Fred has us in Slavery and Paganism, so no more lost turns to civic changes. :thumbsup:

@Gator, nice to hear your trip went well and everything is A-OK! Feeling up to a bit of :hammer: ? :)

I took the screenie below using Gator's technique of zooming out and selecting Culture. The squares of blue on the left are our Galleons in the ocean to the east of our continent. The northern and middle Galleons have troops aboard, the southern one does not. I'm guessing that we may find the third civ in the red area?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/380AD_Culture_Large.jpg

@Gator, nice to hear your trip went well and everything is A-OK! Feeling up to a bit of :hammer: ?

Oh yes! Need to study the save and hear input.

Oh yes! Need to study the save and hear input.

Note that we need to slow down our pace since we have entered a new phase in our game :hammer: and have to plan things thoroughly. :ar15:

Especially when we have located civ#3.

Nice work Fred.

I looked at the save. It's good to have a much better picture of the map.

It looks like Arabia and India are on the same continent. It also looks like they may be fighting. The Arab chariot to the south is injured, and there is no record of an Arab unit having attacked us. Could be from barbs I guess. With Arabia being protective, it's fortuitous that we found them first. I'm thinking that the three galleons full of units in the eastern ocean should also hit Arabia and knock it out of the game now. We can keep all decent sized Arabian cities and whip them for units that can move by land down the continent to India.

I see that the eastern ocean is empty of life. :mischief: After Sparta finishes (whips?) it's galleon and loads the three swords waiting in Carthage (were these forgotten?), all other shipping should happen from the west coast. With what looks to be short transit times, we probably don't need many more galleons. We have 9 in the field and 3 more in the works. 12 total might be enough. So we just need to produce enough land units to fill those galleons.

To our home continent. I see we have a settler almost ready in Ivoryville. Better put him in the forest south of Gold City so our main worker force can get there quickly and so that we don't miss a beat with Civil Service. They should also build a road between Tim and York while they're there.

I see several cities that can be whipped now or very soon. Tim can be whipped now. Carthage's granary can be whipped now. Sparta's galleon can be whipped in a few turns when it gets below 45 hammers remaining. Working 2f1c tiles gives no hammers or surplus food. I think we need a specific plan for when to whip a city over the next 20 turns. I'm thinking that any population that is not producing at least 4 food/hammers or at least 4 gold is whippable. And we should whip at least 2 population at a time whenever possible. Our power graph should be looking as steep as CRC's.

Let's not get conservative here. This is not the end of the beginning. It is the beginning of the end.

I took the screenie below using Gator's technique of zooming out and selecting Culture. The squares of blue on the left are our Galleons in the ocean to the east of our continent. The northern and middle Galleons have troops aboard, the southern one does not. I'm guessing that we may find the third civ in the red area?

Seems likely that the third Civ is where you say. It doesn't look like there is enough space in the north for another Civ. Our galleons will find out soon enough. If all three AI are on the same continent, that changes the way we want to use our galleons I guess.

Great job!!!:D

It looks like Arabia and India are on the same continent. It also looks like they may be fighting. The Arab chariot to the south is injured, and there is no record of an Arab unit having attacked us. Could be from barbs I guess. Resources have been thoroughly pillaged too.With Arabia being protective, it's fortuitous that we found them first. Yes.I'm thinking that the three galleons full of units in the eastern ocean should also hit Arabia and knock it out of the game now. We can keep all decent sized Arabian cities and whip them for units that can move by land down the continent to India. Certainly reasonable, but let's wait a bit.

I see that the eastern ocean is empty of life. :mischief: After Sparta finishes (whips?) it's galleon and loads the three swords waiting in Carthage (were these forgotten?)Had to have been forgotten. (Fred's turn to kick himself.) No need to whip a galleon, because the quickest way to get the abandoned units in play is to return the empty galleon, pick them up, and then form a chain with other eastern galleons (after they've delivered troops) to get them to the front. We've got plenty of galleons, especially in the east. We need troops. I suggest we change Sparta's build to a sword, whip it in three turns, and send it west for shipping it to the front., all other shipping should happen from the west coast. With what looks to be short transit times, we probably don't need many more galleons. We have 9 in the field and 3 more in the works. 12 total might be enough. I question the need for twelve, but in some cases we might complete the builds, if there is no good alternative.So we just need to produce enough land units to fill those galleons. As I look at it, we won't be able to produce enough land units to refill our western navy when it gets back to port.

To our home continent. I see we have a settler almost ready in Ivoryville. Better put him in the forest south of Gold City so our main worker force can get there quickly and so that we don't miss a beat with Civil Service. Yes.They should also build a road between Tim and York while they're there. Road would be nice, but I only see one catapult able to use it immediately and eventually a mace (or possibly 2, all from Tim) in time. There may be a more pressing need for workers to chop forests, such as those NE of Parthian and Horse City, plus those SE of Ivoryville. I think that will get more units to the front quicker.

I see several cities that can be whipped now or very soon. Tim can be whipped now. Not sure about that idea. What about chopping the cat and saving whipping for mace(s)?Carthage's granary can be whipped now. That would seem to counter it's intended purpose. What about moving the citizen from the lake to the plains hill for 2 turns to complete it, then start a unit and whip that instead?Sparta's galleon can be whipped in a few turns when it gets below 45 hammers remaining. see above.Working 2f1c tiles gives no hammers or surplus food. I think we need a specific plan for when to whip a city over the next 20 turns. I'm thinking that any population that is not producing at least 4 food/hammers or at least 4 gold is whippable. And we should whip at least 2 population at a time whenever possible. Our power graph should be looking as steep as CRC's. Basically agree with this general policy, but tempered with the knowledge that maces take a long time to build and are very powerful, so patience may truly be a virtue, and chopping may sometimes serve as an immediate alternative.

Let's not get conservative here. This is not the end of the beginning. It is the beginning of the end.

Indeed, let's attack Bagdad next turn. Much as I dislike using up one of our cats, I suggest we bombard once, then promote the other cat to 2CR and attack with it -- it will have a 33% chance of either victory or retreat. This will give our other attacking units significantly better chances of survival, promotion, and quicker healing. If we take out the warrior with the chariot (awaiting in a galley that should unload onto the roaded forest), it will get its medic promotion.

Drop off the worker onto the plains hill and let one of the empty galleons pick him up and deliver him to Bagdad to start chopping. The other empty galleon should head NE to explore. There are no units at home that will need it for transport, and the sooner we get circumnavigation, the better.

Rather than farm the rice at Gold City (doubt we'd want to move off the gold), send those workers to chop the forest SE of Parthian and get us a cat in 3 turns. The galleon that drops off the worker can head NW to pick him up.

The galleon SW of Ironsite can tranport the existing WE and the one to be completed in 2 turns. I'm not sure that it shouldn't drop the chariot off to protect workers building roads.

"One thing up our sleeve is hiring merchants under Caste System once our last military units have left the shores and slavery is not needed." Will still need Slavery for a while to whip units in captured cities.

I'm thinking that the three galleons full of units in the eastern ocean should also hit Arabia and knock it out of the game now. We can keep all decent sized Arabian cities and whip them for units that can move by land down the continent to India.

I think we should follow the plan of 3 war theatres by using the eastern force to capture a city from the unknown civ and establish a bridgehead. Then focus should be on collecting a force on the west coast that can attack the purple civ (India?). By starting the attacks simultaneously there is a good chance that we can also finish off all civs simultaneously rather than one after the other. The problem with attacking one civ at a time is that we use a lot of time moving troops. I know that Arabia might get longbows, but so might any other of the remaining civs.

After Sparta finishes (whips?) it's galleon and loads the three swords waiting in Carthage (were these forgotten?), all other shipping should happen from the west coast. With what looks to be short transit times, we probably don't need many more galleons. We have 9 in the field and 3 more in the works. 12 total might be enough. So we just need to produce enough land units to fill those galleons.

d'oh! Yes the swords were forgotten as the galleon passed Carthage :mad:. It must be the southernmost galleon. I think it should turn around and get the units with help from a galleon chain as suggested by CP. I agree that we have enough galleons when the 3 under construction are done. I guess playing 10.5 turns is simply too much if you want to avoid mistakes. Maybe we should do as JT suggests and reduce the turn set length even more. One possibility could be to play 10 turns per set but with a break half way through for team discussion.

I see we have a settler almost ready in Ivoryville. Better put him in the forest south of Gold City so our main worker force can get there quickly and so that we don't miss a beat with Civil Service. They should also build a road between Tim and York while they're there.

Best place for the city is 1NW of the cow tile where we get maximum number of forest inside cutural borders (We also get the one within Timbuktus cultural borders but we probably have to work the tile from the new city to get the hammers from the chop). It's important that we focus on the chop - we only have gold for 8 turns of research so we are already late. Note that we also need a road to the new city in order to get stone there.

I see several cities that can be whipped now or very soon. Tim can be whipped now. Carthage's granary can be whipped now. Sparta's galleon can be whipped in a few turns when it gets below 45 hammers remaining. Working 2f1c tiles gives no hammers or surplus food. I think we need a specific plan for when to whip a city over the next 20 turns. I'm thinking that any population that is not producing at least 4 food/hammers or at least 4 gold is whippable. And we should whip at least 2 population at a time whenever possible. Our power graph should be looking as steep as CRC's.

In some cities we wil have problems with whip unhappiness. If you whip before the last whip unhappiness has gone you will get extra turns of unhappiness compared to whipping when the unhappiness has disappeared. Most cities where whipped in T186 when the anarchy was gone and Athens were whipped again in T191 - probably too soon. Is it 15 turns of unhappiness we get per whip? I set Athens to build a worker to avoid growth for a few turns. We probably need a whipping strategy - in some slow groing cities (York, Ironsite) we may not want to whip at all before we are closer to the end. We should probably also be careful with whipping in Bantu since it has so many powerful commerce tiles it can work.

As I look at it, we won't be able to produce enough land units to refill our western navy when it gets back to port.

This is probably true and we should consider moving workers to Baghdad for chopping. We can produce more workers in Athens - it's the best we can do there because it grows so fast that we can't possibly keep it happy using the whip.

Road would be nice, but I only see one catapult able to use it immediately and eventually a mace (or possibly 2, all from Tim) in time. There may be a more pressing need for workers to chop forests, such as those NE of Parthian and Horse City, plus those SE of Ivoryville. I think that will get more units to the front quicker.


Yes, and highest priority is the gold chop in the new city which we are almost already late for (must be finished 7 turns from now). Maybe we need to build a couple of workers in Athens? We just can't get enough it seems...

Indeed, let's attack Bagdad next turn. Much as I dislike using up one of our cats, I suggest we bombard once, then promote the other cat to 2CR and attack with it -- it will have a 33% chance of either victory or retreat. This will give our other attacking units significantly better chances of survival, promotion, and quicker healing. If we take out the warrior with the chariot (awaiting in a galley that should unload onto the roaded forest), it will get its medic promotion.

Sound like the way to go. Since we are 9 against 5 its probably best to use only one cat for bombarding so that we have 8 units for the attack. Those archers could cause 2-3 casualties. Does the chariot have reasonable chances with an amphibious attack on the warrior?

I see several cities that can be whipped now or very soon. Tim can be whipped now. Not sure about that idea. What about chopping the cat and saving whipping for mace(s)? Carthage's granary can be whipped now. That would seem to counter it's intended purpose. What about moving the citizen from the lake to the plains hill for 2 turns to complete it, then start a unit and whip that instead?

Tim's population will grow faster if we whip away citizens who are working 2food tiles. We can whip two population, get one cat now, and get overflow hammers for 2/3 of another one. The population will grow back quickly for whipping maces soon. Our enemies are still weak. I'd like to see more units now to exploit our advantage.

At Carthage, if we whip the granary now, it will come next turn when the food box is half full and will give us a half-full food box when Carthage grows a few turns later. And we can start producing units sooner if we whip it now.

Basically agree with this general policy, but tempered with the knowledge that maces take a long time to build and are very powerful, so patience may truly be a virtue, and chopping may sometimes serve as an immediate alternative.

Getting more units in the field now means capturing more cities now and having more money for upgrading our experienced axes/swords. Upgrading these experienced units should be top priority because of their experience and because they're closer to the battle than newly built units. Capturing more cities now also means having more cities in which to whip macemen.

As far as the unhappiness from whipping goes, we'll probably be picking up more happiness resources as we capture cities. And the game isn't going to last long enough to worry about the whip unhappiness stacking. If our big cities aren't unhappy at the end of the game, we've probably finished several turns slower than we could have. We're not going for a high score here. It's fastest conquest/domination, plain and simple.

Indeed, let's attack Bagdad next turn. Much as I dislike using up one of our cats, I suggest we bombard once, then promote the other cat to 2CR and attack with it -- it will have a 33% chance of either victory or retreat. This will give our other attacking units significantly better chances of survival, promotion, and quicker healing. If we take out the warrior with the chariot (awaiting in a galley that should unload onto the roaded forest), it will get its medic promotion.

I agree it's best to attack with a cat first here. We want to keep as many elite swords as possible for upgrading. We can attack this turn if the accuracy cat can take down the defenses in one shot. Just leave the warrior for the chariot. The chariot can attack the warrior next turn from land, or attack from the galley with 79.2% chance of surviving and gaining XPs.

The other empty galleon should head NE to explore.

I assume you meant NW, for circumnavigation.

I think we should follow the plan of 3 war theatres by using the eastern force to capture a city from the unknown civ and establish a bridgehead. Then focus should be on collecting a force on the west coast that can attack the purple civ (India?). By starting the attacks simultaneously there is a good chance that we can also finish off all civs simultaneously rather than one after the other. The problem with attacking one civ at a time is that we use a lot of time moving troops. I know that Arabia might get longbows, but so might any other of the remaining civs.

Are we in good position to attack a new Civ now? We don't know where it is yet and our swords are going to get there several turns late. If we attack Arabia from both sides now, they are going to fall that much more quickly. Our western army can finish off Arabia while we take our eastern force in 3-4 galleons and open the attack on the new Civ. I would suggest that we at least take a look at what's inside that Arabian city and decide whether it's a good target of opportunity.

d'oh! Yes the swords were forgotten as the galleon passed Carthage :mad:. It must be the southernmost galleon. I think it should turn around and get the units with help from a galleon chain as suggested by CP.

Are we going to use a galleon chain on our east coast for anything besides those three swords? If the galleon chain is going to be in place, perhaps we should be using it for moving units built in Carthage, Tim, and Sparta. Attacking each civ from both sides could speed conquest.

Maybe we should do as JT suggests and reduce the turn set length even more. One possibility could be to play 10 turns per set but with a break half way through for team discussion.

Agreed.

Best place for the city is 1NW of the cow tile where we get maximum number of forest inside cutural borders (We also get the one within Timbuktus cultural borders but we probably have to work the tile from the new city to get the hammers from the chop). It's important that we focus on the chop - we only have gold for 8 turns of research so we are already late.

We can capture several more cities in the next 8 turns: obviously Baghdad; whatever is north of Baghdad; the western Arabian city that our eastern fleet has found. We should get Civil Service on time if we stay aggressive.

I set Athens to build a worker to avoid growth for a few turns. We probably need a whipping strategy - in some slow groing cities (York, Ironsite) we may not want to whip at all before we are closer to the end. We should probably also be careful with whipping in Bantu since it has so many powerful commerce tiles it can work.

I would switch Athens to a cat. It doesn't matter if Athens grows to take on an unhappy citizen. It will just give us more population to whip into maces.

Yes, and highest priority is the gold chop in the new city which we are almost already late for (must be finished 7 turns from now). Maybe we need to build a couple of workers in Athens? We just can't get enough it seems...

Our workforce is nearing the end of its usefulness. After chopping the new city, 17 workers will be plenty for chopping the remaining stray forests on our continent and building a few roads. More units will be more useful now.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/SG6-23.jpg

After closer examination, the borders we're seeing are Viking lavender, not Indian purple. This would explain why Arabia appears to be at war with someone else. Ragnar is on the rampage. :viking:

I think we should follow the plan of 3 war theatres by using the eastern force to capture a city from the unknown civ and establish a bridgehead. Then focus should be on collecting a force on the west coast that can attack the purple civ (India?). By starting the attacks simultaneously there is a good chance that we can also finish off all civs simultaneously rather than one after the other. The problem with attacking one civ at a time is that we use a lot of time moving troops. I know that Arabia might get longbows, but so might any other of the remaining civs. I doubt the Arabs will get longbows, but three theaters is spreading too thin. We should be able to do a good deal of troop movement with galleons. Indeed, Gator should consider swapping a unit for the WE he drops and keeping the remaining galleon fully loaded. After one empty galleon explores NE, he can decide if he wants to sail it N or S or drop off forces inside Bagdad and return east.



d'oh! Yes the swords were forgotten as the galleon passed Carthage :mad:. It must be the southernmost galleon. I think it should turn around and get the units with help from a galleon chain as suggested by CP. I agree that we have enough galleons when the 3 under construction are done. Don't think we want to complete galleon in Sparta -- see above.I guess playing 10.5 turns is simply too much if you want to avoid mistakes. Maybe we should do as JT suggests and reduce the turn set length even more. One possibility could be to play 10 turns per set but with a break half way through for team discussion.

Best place for the city is 1NW of the cow tile where we get maximum number of forest inside cutural borders (We also get the one within Timbuktus cultural borders but we probably have to work the tile from the new city to get the hammers from the chop). It's important that we focus on the chop - we only have gold for 8 turns of research so we are already late. Note that we also need a road to the new city in order to get stone there. Sounds good.

In some cities we wil have problems with whip unhappiness. If you whip before the last whip unhappiness has gone you will get extra turns of unhappiness compared to whipping when the unhappiness has disappeared. Most cities where whipped in T186 when the anarchy was gone and Athens were whipped again in T191 - probably too soon. Is it 15 turns of unhappiness we get per whip? I set Athens to build a worker to avoid growth for a few turns. Suggest we whip once more in Athens and then go to workers. Whip badly needed promoted cat right now, take citzens off of two low-gold breads, put one on plains hill and other on coast for one turn to prevent growth, and then go back to worker.We probably need a whipping strategy - in some slow groing cities (York, Ironsite) we may not want to whip at all before we are closer to the end. We should probably also be careful with whipping in Bantu since it has so many powerful commerce tiles it can work. Yes. We can produce more workers in Athens - it's the best we can do there because it grows so fast that we can't possibly keep it happy using the whip.

Sound like the way to go. Since we are 9 against 5 its probably best to use only one cat for bombarding so that we have 8 units for the attack. Those archers could cause 2-3 casualties. Does the chariot have reasonable chances with an amphibious attack on the warrior? Probably not -- my error. Gator, don't fail to unload one of the WE's on the forest with the cat, axe, and WE (which you will want to use first in the attack and I'm assuming will be greatly weakened if he survives the RNG) so an Arab chariot(s) doesn't get lucky and take out what may be our only remaining cat.

Are we in good position to attack a new Civ now? We don't know where it is yet and our swords are going to get there several turns late. If we attack Arabia from both sides now, they are going to fall that much more quickly. Our western army can finish off Arabia while we take our eastern force in 3-4 galleons and open the attack on the new Civ. I would suggest that we at least take a look at what's inside that Arabian city and decide whether it's a good target of opportunity.

I don't see any particular virtue in finishing off Arabia first. On the contrary I would rather that we got started attacking the other remaining civs. Not knowing where they are only means that it's even more important to locate them.

Are we going to use a galleon chain on our east coast for anything besides those three swords? If the galleon chain is going to be in place, perhaps we should be using it for moving units built in Carthage, Tim, and Sparta. Attacking each civ from both sides could speed conquest.

I think it's too early to say. A galleon chain from the west coast going south of the purple civ might be a little faster - if there is a passage south...

We can capture several more cities in the next 8 turns: obviously Baghdad; whatever is north of Baghdad; the western Arabian city that our eastern fleet has found. We should get Civil Service on time if we stay aggressive.

Let's hope so. Anyway it's not a big deal if CS is delayed one turn due to waiting for the chop.

I would switch Athens to a cat. It doesn't matter if Athens grows to take on an unhappy citizen. It will just give us more population to whip into maces.

Yes, lets build a cat. I would be cautious about whipping it though. As CP mentioned it's a lot better to whip expensive units like maces for 3-4 pop in our food rich cities. And happiness will become an issue in Athens

Our workforce is nearing the end of its usefulness. After chopping the new city, 17 workers will be plenty for chopping the remaining stray forests on our continent and building a few roads. More units will be more useful now.

Moving workers to Baghdad will make a big difference because we can use them to chop units there. And we have vacant space in our galleons right now. We might be able to conquer Arabia with the units we have there now (12) + extra units we chop or whip. Thats another reason why I want to start attacking the two other civs.

I doubt the Arabs will get longbows, but three theaters is spreading too thin. We should be able to do a good deal of troop movement with galleons

If 3 theaters are too much right now I think we should prioritize setting up a second theater near the unknown civ. The third theater (India) can be ramped up fast when we get the troops. And we know it's not that far from Arabia.

Indeed, Gator should consider swapping a unit for the WE he drops and keeping the remaining galleon fully loaded. After one empty galleon explores NE, he can decide if he wants to sail it N or S or drop off forces inside Bagdad and return east.

If we're going to move units by galleon to the next Arabian city, we'll want the accuracy cat in the initial landing party. After dropping off the elephant, the galleon can just wait there for one turn so that it can pick up units from the same tile next turn and, along with one other galleon waiting by Baghdad, sail north to the next Arabian city.

The other empty galleon at Baghdad should explore NW, not NE.

The galleon with the worker can continue towards London to pick up the cat and the elephant.

The galleon near Athens can go back and pick up a cat whipped in Athens, pick up Ironsite's new elephant, drop off the chariot, and pick up London's cat currently being built.

If 3 theaters are too much right now I think we should prioritize setting up a second theater near the unknown civ. The third theater (India) can be ramped up fast when we get the troops. And we know it's not that far from Arabia.

In that case, a galleon chain for our three swords in Carthage needs to be set up so that the galleon in the far north becomes the fourth (last) link in the chain, the full galleon farthest south becomes the second link, and the galleon in the middle becomes the third link. If by some chance we find the last Civ to the north of Arabia, we can link the chain to the Vikings.

Looking at the demographics screen, there is one Civ with only about 15% of the land that we have. There's a chance that someone got stuck on a small continent to the north of Arabia. Or maybe the small Civ is the one losing the Viking-Arabia war.

Let's see if we can get put our arms around our situation?

First, a screenie of the eastern ocean and what is there.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/380AD_Eastern_Ocean.jpg

Currently, we have 7 Galleons worth of units (21 total) heading towards Arabia. Near Baghdad, 9 units have offloaded and another 3 remain ready to land. On the other side of the continent, we have a Galleon spying Arabia's border from the sea. Another Galleon of three units is 3 turns away and a third is further than that, say 6 turns away, although I'm not sure that is accurate because I don't know what land is in its way.

Our production is not sufficient to refill the 4 Galleons from the Western sailing group we sent that is dropping off units near Baghdad. Not sure how quickly we can force another 12 units out, but it will take longer than sailing time back from Arabia.

We know, or suspect, that Arabia has been, or is, at war with another civ based upon the pillaged tiles, promotions of units and the wounded Chariot south of Baghdad.

What we do not know is exactly how many cities Arabia has or where they are. We also do not know who the other civs that we will have to face, exactly where they are or how many cities they have?

The power graph shows that we are at least twice as powerful as any rival atm. As does the demographics chart.

I think we will be spread too thin to try to take on all three of these civs at once. What I would like to suggest we consider is that we concentrate on Arabia with the forces we readily have available for the moment. As our production is weakest in the east, once the two Galleons in the eastern ocean drop off their troops, one goes north and one goes south. From the western force, one Galleon heads north to try to link up with the other from the eastern ocean and another heads south. Let's find out what is going on?

While our current force subdues Arabia, let's recon and decide the most efficient way to move units. Once Arabia is dealt with, Galleons can be used (if needed) to ship the Arabian Force to the unknown civ while our new force we build at home prepares to go after the Vikings or India or whoever? I don't think the recon will take long, about 5 to 7 turns?

At home, I think we should pop-rush as much as we can to build a new force quickly to attack the close civ. It seems to me to be a trade off between turning pop into hammers versus having enough pop working to keep us afloat economically? Taking AI cities and chopping forests into Gold can help with this too.

Spreading ourselves too thin will simply mean that we will have to move more forces around, wasting time, to get enough units together to finish the job. We know where a civ is that needs to be dealt with, now let's go find the others and see what we're facing. :scan:

I was reviewing the save and see that a few questions I had are being discussed already.

1.) Instead of turning that southern most galleon around, should we send it forward for 1 or 2 more turns just to see if it can find the border of the last unknown civ? Also is there any benefit too delaying contact with the Purple Haze and Unknown Leader? I'm thinking along the lines of incase they are at war with each other and both have not met us. Upon us contacting the Purple Haze could it cause them to end their war with Arabia?

2.) Ship chaining - just confirming that we can only transfer once, unlike in Civ III where you could transfer multiple times.

3) Without unloading inside a city can a chariot unload and attack on the same turn.

Looking at the Demographics:
With only 3 AI's left in the game we can now start judging the strength of each based on the Rival Best & Worst data and knowing Arabia's numbers.

1) We have twice the soldier power as the Rival Best. This is without maces so we need to push hard and not let up.

2) In Land Area: As SCT noticed there is a small AI at only 32000 Rival Worst which is 3% of total land compared to our 37.76% and Arabia 9%. Arabia is shown on the Victory screen as the competition for Domination at 20% of population and 9% Land. Using this and the demo screen I calculated the Rival Average and plug in theAI #2 at 90000 or 7.4%.

AI Land Area (water tiles don't count)
Arabia 9% 110,000
#2 7.4% 90,000
#3 3.0% 32,000

Land area is defind as your land tiles x 1000

Mecca has 2306 culture, Baghdad is their #2 culture city at 81, #3 at 72. So, we are probably dealing with 5 Arab cities if all at 21 tiles.

3)Doing the same analysis on population reveals that Arabia's 20% pop is actually the #2 population. Rival Best is 1,247,000 which equates to 30%, Arabia 20% and Rival Worst is 13% pop 530,000.

Nice work Gator. :goodjob:


3)Doing the same analysis on population reveals that Arabia's 20% pop is actually the #2 population. Rival Best is 1,247,000 which equates to 30%, Arabia 20% and Rival Worst is 13% pop 530,000.
Can we take this a bit further and say that if Arabia has about 5 cities, then Rival Best has 7 or 8 and Rival Worst has 3 to 4? If so, that gets close to Fred's estimate of 18 rival cities. :thumbsup:

"The other empty galleon at Baghdad should explore NW, not NE." Yes, that's what I meant to say.


1.) Instead of turning that southern most galleon around, should we send it forward for 1 or 2 more turns just to see if it can find the border of the last unknown civ? What would it do then? That's taking it out of play. Better to send it back.Also is there any benefit too delaying contact with the Purple Haze and Unknown Leader? I'm thinking along the lines of incase they are at war with each other and both have not met us. Upon us contacting the Purple Haze could it cause them to end their war with Arabia? Suspect they've already reached some kind of stalemate. In any case, I doubt it makes a geat deal of difference, compared to the best use of our forces.

2.) Ship chaining - just confirming that we can only transfer once, unlike in Civ III where you could transfer multiple times. Right. I'm not advocating tying up all four eastern galleons in a chain to get three units to the front -- just one additional or, at most, two if not needed elsewhere.

3) Without unloading inside a city can a chariot unload and attack on the same turn. No.

Looking at the Demographics:
. Nice analysis. Can you glean anything more about the units (number and quality) that we're facing?

One thing to watch on ship chains is that you can't name the boats and I can't tell which one I need to move them to. I tend to mess them up, so any hints on how to keep from doing this would be appreciated.

One thing to watch on ship chains is that you can't name the boats and I can't tell which one I need to move them to. I tend to mess them up, so any hints on how to keep from doing this would be appreciated.
When you go to load them, there is a list of available Galleons that the unit can load onto. Usually you move one or more Galleons into a stack. The list shows not only how many units can load onto a Galleon, but also the movement and strength points each Galleon has. Whatever I've moved will show that on the screen and I can then load the units onto the Galleons that have all their movement remaining. If you have moved both Galleons to a central point, that is a bit harder as you have to count tiles and remember which ones moved what distance.

Finally, before you move the Galleon, the units aboard it will be listed right after the Galleon where the unit icons are in the lower center of the screen. If there aren't the right number, just reload the units again until it is correct. I have moved them several times as long as they are stacked in the same tile.

Hope that helps? :crazyeye:

Nice analysis. Can you glean anything more about the units (number and quality) that we're facing?

The power ratings of our three opponents are 124, 121, and 117. Arabia is one of the lower two based on taking my tape measure to the power graph screen.

Remember that a lot of power comes from techs, buildings, and population. If we assume that Arabia has Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Alphabet, Mathematics, Archery, Bronze Working, and Iron Working, they have 46 power points from techs. If we assume that they have built 3 barracks and 3 walls, they get 15 more power points. And if we assume they have 5 cities with an average population of 6, they get 15 more power points. We can see that Arabia has 3 archers, 3 chariots, and 2 warriors. These units give then 14 more power points. That would leave 27-31 power points unaccounted for. So we can guess that Arabia has 2 additional units for each one we can see - probably 2 archers per city and a few more chariots and warriors.

Arabia doesn't seem to have any metal, or else they would have upgraded their warriors. Our swords and elephants should be especially effective now.

One thing to watch on ship chains is that you can't name the boats and I can't tell which one I need to move them to. I tend to mess them up, so any hints on how to keep from doing this would be appreciated.

Actually you can name units. At the top of the unit detail box in the lower left corner of the screen where it says "Galleon" just click and rename the unit.

Nice analysis. Can you glean anything more about the units (number and quality) that we're facing?

Mecca is the #1 Top 5 City with 2 Wonders and HC shrine. Cities #2 (size 11 :eek: ) & #3 on the list are also capitols (founded in 4000bc). #5 is only size 7 but was founded in 1600bc so it may be the other HC. Strange that Timb is not here since we have cities larger than pop 7.

The last unknown AI has only 32 land tiles and yet its capitol is on the list of Top 5 cities, since there are 3 rival cities at 4000bc dates.

At home, I think we should pop-rush as much as we can to build a new force quickly to attack the close civ. It seems to me to be a trade off between turning pop into hammers versus having enough pop working to keep us afloat economically? Taking AI cities and chopping forests into Gold can help with this too.

I agree with agressive pop rushing now. We know Arabia's strength, and we can guess that the other civs have comparable forces. There's no need to wait until macemen become available. Cats, elephants and swords should do well right now, and the macemen that we sacrafice by pop rushing now will be made up for by more experienced macemen upgraded right on the battlefront.

1.) Instead of turning that southern most galleon around, should we send it forward for 1 or 2 more turns just to see if it can find the border of the last unknown civ? Also is there any benefit too delaying contact with the Purple Haze and Unknown Leader? I'm thinking along the lines of incase they are at war with each other and both have not met us. Upon us contacting the Purple Haze could it cause them to end their war with Arabia?

With forces ready to take on everyone in the next 20 turns, I think it's more important to get good information about the map now. I am not opposed to our galleons making contact with the Vikings if it gives us better information about where to send troops.

My ideas:

Agree with Fred that we should set up a war theatre with distant civ#2. If we land on their capital or #2 city it would be ideal.

Agree with ShannonCT that we should whip aggressively. We don't need to worry too much about stacking unhappiness. We can whip 4 more times in Athens before we can no longer work our best tiles. I wouldn't worry if we miss 2food per turn here or there because we are employing 1-2 unhappy citizens.

I guess we probably only have about 15-20 important turns of unit production and need to get as many units to our western coast as we can during this time.

I would even be happy about bypassing Civil Service altogether and using the last forest chops for catapults. This would relieve our commerce situation (although it is a somewhat lazy approach since we can probably manage our gold even with CS research) and allow us to keep every captured city that has whip/chop potential.

My point is we need to get our units into enemy territory ASAP and swords/cats/elephants give pretty good value for hammers (even compared to macemen). The only thing we really miss out on is upgrading our promoted units.

I suppose with the charismatic trait, chopping forests into gold at 3:1 and then investing in research and upgrades is pretty efficient.

How many turns of the game left? Fred gave us something to aim at a while back... 60? ....50? ...40? even less? maybe.

Mecca is the #1 Top 5 City with 2 Wonders and HC shrine.
:hmm: This is a good reason to keep Mecca, the Mahabodhi. I wonder if there are enough Buddhist cities to make anything off of it? There is still Judaism and Hinduism out there... :rolleyes:

If cities have forests to chop, we keep them? If not, ????

I guess we probably only have about 15-20 important turns of unit production and need to get as many units to our western coast as we can during this time.

I would even be happy about bypassing Civil Service altogether and using the last forest chops for catapults. This would relieve our commerce situation (although it is a somewhat lazy approach since we can probably manage our gold even with CS research) and allow us to keep every captured city that has whip/chop potential.
I'd like to see what is in the other AI cities before we make this decision. ;)
If we can get enough units out and transported, then CS may come too late to be of use. OTOH, having it allows us to upgrade, just in case...

My point is we need to get our units into enemy territory ASAP and swords/cats/elephants give pretty good value for hammers (even compared to macemen). The only thing we really miss out on is upgrading our promoted units.
Yes, we need to build a second army as quickly as possible.
We may have to whip until our hands bleed?

How many turns of the game left? Fred gave us something to aim at a while back... 60? ....50? ...40? even less? maybe.
Don't remember, but let's make it as few as possible... :cheers:
If there are 15 to 18 cities remaining, then knowing what is in them will allow us to take them faster. :D

I agree that we should attack Baghdad this turn. Bombard with accuracy catapult.

But I think we should open the attack with our combat1/cover/CR1 axe for 19% odds. What better time to use him? He will die, but will render the Schwarzenegger archer useless. Our second attack should be the newly promoted CR2 catapult with 90% odds of winning.

My point is we need to get our units into enemy territory ASAP and swords/cats/elephants give pretty good value for hammers (even compared to macemen). The only thing we really miss out on is upgrading our promoted units.

If we're facing mostly archers, certainly swords/elephants/cats give better value than macemen, i.e., will let us kill more enemy faster. And that's really the name of the game at this point. So we really need to know what the AI forces look like.

Can we agree that when the galleon near Athens sails back north, Gator should take a look at the Viking coastal cities? If we don't see any spearmen, we need to get ready to rush them with cats and elephants..

How many turns of the game left? Fred gave us something to aim at a while back... 60? ....50? ...40? even less? maybe.

I think we should be planning for the game to last 35-40 more turns.

I agree that we should attack Baghdad this turn. Bombard with accuracy catapult.

But I think we should open the attack with our combat1/cover/CR1 axe for 19% odds. What better time to use him? He will die, but will render the Schwarzenegger archer useless. Our second attack should be the newly promoted CR2 catapult with 90% odds of winning.

Sounds good. With no spearmen to protect against, the axeman is more expendable than the cat.

Can we agree that when the galleon near Athens sails back north, Gator should take a look at the Viking coastal cities? If we don't see any spearmen, we need to get ready to rush them with cats and elephants..


Remember our most urgent attention needs to be paid to the furthest two AI's with Vikings as our mop-up job. I agree that information about the Viking coastal cities will be valuable though.

Just realised we have a good sign with Saladin... he is not in Hereditary Rule so we can assume he doesn't have Monarchy yet! No longbows for you! :ar15:

2.) Ship chaining - just confirming that we can only transfer once, unlike in Civ III where you could transfer multiple times.

Loading and unloading units does not require movement points. That's also true if you load a unit in a coastal city. If you load a unit by moving it into a galleon at the coast it consumes all movement points. In other words galleon chaining is not limited to one transfer.



Looking at the Demographics:
With only 3 AI's left in the game we can now start judging the strength of each based on the Rival Best & Worst data and knowing Arabia's numbers.

1) We have twice the soldier power as the Rival Best. This is without maces so we need to push hard and not let up.

2) In Land Area: As SCT noticed there is a small AI at only 32000 Rival Worst which is 3% of total land compared to our 37.76% and Arabia 9%. Arabia is shown on the Victory screen as the competition for Domination at 20% of population and 9% Land. Using this and the demo screen I calculated the Rival Average and plug in theAI #2 at 90000 or 7.4%.

AI Land Area (water tiles don't count)
Arabia 9% 110,000
#2 7.4% 90,000
#3 3.0% 32,000

Land area is defind as your land tiles x 1000

Mecca has 2306 culture, Baghdad is their #2 culture city at 81, #3 at 72. So, we are probably dealing with 5 Arab cities if all at 21 tiles.

3)Doing the same analysis on population reveals that Arabia's 20% pop is actually the #2 population. Rival Best is 1,247,000 which equates to 30%, Arabia 20% and Rival Worst is 13% pop 530,000.

Very interesting info :goodjob:. Mecca has had 3rd border expansion and could cover as many as 50 tiles so 5-6 Arab cities sounds realistic.

It seems very likely that the civ with a territory of only 32 tiles is trapped on an island. 3 large cities of pop 7-8 would fit the demographics. If purple civ is on the same continent as the Arabs I doubt that they would have only 32 tiles of land. So the small civ could very well be the unknown and we should look carefully with our eastern galleons so we don't miss it.

Agree with ShannonCT that we should whip aggressively. We don't need to worry too much about stacking unhappiness. We can whip 4 more times in Athens before we can no longer work our best tiles. I wouldn't worry if we miss 2food per turn here or there because we are employing 1-2 unhappy citizens.

If we do this we should seriously consider skipping CS since it will worsen an already shaky economy (-4 gpt at 0% research).

I would even be happy about bypassing Civil Service altogether and using the last forest chops for catapults. This would relieve our commerce situation (although it is a somewhat lazy approach since we can probably manage our gold even with CS research) and allow us to keep every captured city that has whip/chop potential.

My point is we need to get our units into enemy territory ASAP and swords/cats/elephants give pretty good value for hammers (even compared to macemen). The only thing we really miss out on is upgrading our promoted units.

I think this idea deserves some consideration. How much better is a CR1 mace vs archer compared to a combat 1 WE vs archer?

I suppose with the charismatic trait, chopping forests into gold at 3:1 and then investing in research and upgrades is pretty efficient.


The conversion rate for upgrades is about 3:1 i.e. you pay 3 gold for every hammer extra you would need to build the upgraded unit compared to the original unit.

Remember our most urgent attention needs to be paid to the furthest two AI's with Vikings as our mop-up job. I agree that information about the Viking coastal cities will be valuable though.

Finding and attacking the unknown AI is very important since it is much likely to be the bottleneck in our conquest. We already have 12 units in our Arab army and if we move some workers there for chopping we could get at least 5 more units from whipping and chopping in Baghdad. Wouldn't 17 units be enough to conquer the 5-6 Arab cities?

Looking at the Viking (Why not Indian?) cities would tell us if they are the small civ and that might be more valuable than delaying the war declaration.

1.) On the CS issue, we have a settler in 2 turns and if we settle 4 tiles due south of Gold City we can get 7 forest in the initial 9 (if I can work a forest from Timb's cultural expansion). That should be enough gold to complete research, not counting gold from captured cities.

2) Since Arabia has no metal we should hit them fast and hard, capture and keep all decent cities plus we earn more gold which can be used to upgrade to maces as we move on the Purple Haze.

@SCT, when you measured the Power graph, were you going from the actual Power graph? The reason I ask is your description for Power is exactly how the "Soldier" demo stat is described: 3 factors, techs, building and units.

1.) On the CS issue, we have a settler in 2 turns and if we settle 4 tiles due south of Gold City we can get 7 forest in the initial 9 (if I can work a forest from Timb's cultural expansion). That should be enough gold to complete research, not counting gold from captured cities.
Yes we will be able to research CS, but the more interesting question is: do we need to?


2) Since Arabia has no metal we should hit them fast and hard, capture and keep all decent cities plus we earn more gold which can be used to upgrade to maces as we move on the Purple Haze.
Pretty sure the fastest strategy is simultaneous conquest of AI's, rather than hitting one and then moving on to the next.

ShannonCT found the calculation of power and "soldiers" somewhere on the CRC site and posted with a link. Should be somewhere in our thread at the end of our first turnset I think?

EDIT: Found the post
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6273265&postcount=200

Serious discussing going on here. I'll try to be be brief.

Appreciate the advantages of no CS (certainly agree that unpromoted maces are not that much of an improvement, although the next civ is likely to have metal units), but I'm still a bit concerned about committing to no CS at this point because upgrading promoted swords is powerful . . . 3CR maces are a means to successfully weaken promoted archers in a single-tile island hill city. Can someone run the odds with just 3CR swords (don't have to win, of course, just have a good probability to weaken)? If no CS is the decision, would we want to found another city and chop units instead of a wall?

Is our lead such that playing a tad conservatively is appropriate?

"But I think we should open the attack with our combat1/cover/CR1 axe for 19% odds. What better time to use him? He will die, but will render the Schwarzenegger archer useless. Our second attack should be the newly promoted CR2 catapult with 90% odds of winning." That's a much better plan than mine!

But I think we should open the attack with our combat1/cover/CR1 axe for 19% odds. What better time to use him? He will die, but will render the Schwarzenegger archer useless. Our second attack should be the newly promoted CR2 catapult with 90% odds of winning.

OOPS, I think the odds for the CR2 catapult are much lower than 90% for attacking an archer with CD1, it's more like 50-60%.

Remember our most urgent attention needs to be paid to the furthest two AI's with Vikings as our mop-up job. I agree that information about the Viking coastal cities will be valuable though

Should the Athens galleon even be going north, or should it try to support the eastern force? The 12 units in Arabia + 1 more galleon full + units whipped/chopped in Baghdad are probably enough.

If we do this we should seriously consider skipping CS since it will worsen an already shaky economy (-4 gpt at 0% research).

The current treasury + a couple more captured cities should be good for CS. Chopping the new city should be good for ~900 more gold, and money will continue to pour in from capturing cities. We can use money to upgrade swords and still keep a reserve of a few hundred.

I think this idea deserves some consideration. How much better is a CR1 mace vs archer compared to a combat 1 WE vs archer?

There's hardly any difference. If we don't see melee units, we shouldn't build macemen.


Looking at the Viking (Why not Indian?) cities would tell us if they are the small civ and that might be more valuable than delaying the war declaration.

The color matches the Viking lavender, not the Indian purple.

@SCT, when you measured the Power graph, were you going from the actual Power graph? The reason I ask is your description for Power is exactly how the "Soldier" demo stat is described: 3 factors, techs, building and units.

Yes, soldiers in the demo screen = power in the power graph.

Appreciate the advantages of no CS (certainly agree that unpromoted maces are not that much of an improvement, although the next civ is likely to have metal units), but I'm still a bit concerned about committing to no CS at this point because upgrading promoted swords is powerful . . . 3CR maces are a means to successfully weaken promoted archers in a single-tile island hill city. Can someone run the odds with just 3CR swords (don't have to win, of course, just have a good probability to weaken)? If no CS is the decision, would we want to found another city and chop units instead of a wall?

Is our lead such that playing a tad conservatively is appropriate?


I dont see going for CS as being conservative. We have money in the bank and we're going to get more from capturing cities. Is there a better way to use the cash than CS and macemen?

Should the Athens galleon even be going north, or should it try to support the eastern force? The 12 units in Arabia + 1 more galleon full + units whipped/chopped in Baghdad are probably enough.
To support the eastern ocean, doesn't it have to sail all the way around the world? It might be better used to transport a load and replace one of the Galleons near Baghdad, which can try to sail around to the eastern ocean by going north, over the top of Arabia?

Is there a better way to use the cash than CS and macemen?
Don't know if I could have said it any better! :yup: :beer: :)

To support the eastern ocean, doesn't it have to sail all the way around the world? It might be better used to transport a load and replace one of the Galleons near Baghdad, which can try to sail around to the eastern ocean by going north, over the top of Arabia?

No, I was wondering whether that galleon should unload troops on the island/continent of the yet undiscovered Civ as the galleons in the eastern ocean may. We dont need any more galleons in the eastern ocean. One of our empty galleons can go over the top of Arabia long enough to circumnavigate and verify whether the undiscovered Civ is in the north, but then come back to move units from our continent.

No, I was wondering whether that galleon should unload troops on the island/continent of the yet undiscovered Civ as the galleons in the eastern ocean may. We dont need any more galleons in the eastern ocean. One of our empty galleons can go over the top of Arabia long enough to circumnavigate and verify whether the undiscovered Civ is in the north, but then come back to move units from our continent.
OH! Sorry. :blush: Do you think, once loaded, it can sail under the land of the pink/lavender, or whatever it is, civ? :scan:

That would also have the advantage of providing more info on what is over there. ;)

Is there a better way to use the cash than CS and macemen?

We shouldn't feel compelled to use cash just because we have it. The dilema is whether CS will speed up our victory or not?

I'm not 100% sure on the issue and am just thinking out loud...

Chopping the forests around our next settler may be better going into catapults.

Also, with cash in the bank and ten extra turns at 0% research we can be a little more ruthless with our whipping and maximising pure hammers for the next 15 turns. We also won't have to worry so much about the risk-vs-reward of keeping captured cities; basically any city with any whip/chop potential can be kept.

I know crossbows aren't very good offensive units, but we do have the option of building archers in captured cities and cash upgrading them to crossbows too?

On the one tile hill cities... I'll let someone else crunch the numbers, but in the unlikely event we find one, my first glance at the combat calculator says CR3 swords and C2 elephants both have very strong chances to damage the unit. (For CR3 swords there is something like 56/100 archer hps left for the average encounter vs a CG1 archer.) With longbows we might struggle, but I consider that scenario very very unlikely.

What you are saying makes sense. I would like to see what the other civs have for units before I agree with you. If they have metals, it could make a big difference, especially if they have been at war and their Axes have several promotions.

I see the CS discussion is still going on, but here is a tentative plan. I was think about playing a few turns (2 to 4) and then posting some screenie or even the save as contact with the Purple Haze and possibly Unknown Leader takes place. This way we can do some better end game planning. But we need to decide on CS first.

Plan

TECHS
CS in 10 aided by chops

CITIES
London: Cat
Timbuktu: cat (whip now)
York: galleon
Ironsite: WE
Ivoryville: settler
Athens: change worker to cat (whip for 2 pop when able) then worker
Carthage: granary (whip now - will complete next turn when food box is half full))
Sparta: galleon change to sword (empty galleon returning for troop pickup) whip in 3 turns
Bantu: granary
Parthian: cat
Horse City: granary
Gold City: galleon


WORKERS
We'll have 7 forest to chop at our new city site south of Gold City to finish CS and have some gold for upgrades.
Stop the workers on the rice at Gold City and chop forest at Parthian for faster cat.

MILITARY
Attack Baghdad now - bombard for accuracy, then combat1/cover/CR1 axe , then newly promoted CR2 catapult , save Arabian warrior for chariot from galleon

Galleon with worker - returns to pickup cat chopped from Parthian & London's cat & the WE

1 of 2 empty galleons by Baghdad explores NW to complete circumnavigation. Other galleon waits or moves for ship chain (initially will wait a turn)

Galleon (loaded with troops) east of Baghdad - drop off WE to cover cat and wounded units and possible counter from chariot

Galleon SW of Ironsite transports cat from Athens whip plus the new WE (due in 2 turns) & drop off the chariot for worker road protection from homelamd barbs, then make contact with Purple Haze on its way north to Arabia

Position west side galleons as part of ship chain to help get the 3 missing swordsmen into action, after delivering their troops to the battlefield.

Southernmost empty galleon returns to Carthage to pickup swords.

Settler to new city site 4 tiles south of Gold City - this gives 7 forests (inclusive of the 1 from Timb that we must work)



QUESTIONS
1) Will circumnavigation complete when we "discover" the western Arabian city? That will complete a water path seperated by the one landmass, although some tiles are still fog. If so than that will occur either this turn or next.
2) Go to 10 turn sets with a 5 turn report (if not sooner). I will probably post screenie's as soon as contact is made with other AI's so we can properly map out our end game.
3) To get the chop from the forest in Timb's border do we have to work the tile the whole time or only the turn we start chopping that tile and the turn we finish it?
4) Don't we need to be careful about the whipping affect on researching CS? If we whip both Timb and Cart will it increase number of turns to CS?
5) Any reason to mess with the barb city on our homeland? Or do we wait until after our 15-20 turn production window for troops to the front is over and then go after it. (Gee, I think I just answered my own question.)

Should the Athens galleon even be going north, or should it try to support the eastern force? The 12 units in Arabia + 1 more galleon full + units whipped/chopped in Baghdad are probably enough.Won't that get whatever units it carries in play much more slowly. I don't get this.

There's hardly any difference. If we don't see melee units, we shouldn't build macemen. Think we won't see them?

I don't see going for CS as being conservative. We have money in the bank and we're going to get more from capturing cities. Is there a better way to use the cash than CS and macemen? Compared to JT scenario, it certainly seems conservative to me. I think JT's approach is probably faster. I just think it's also riskier, and I'm not sure we need to take risks at this point, presuming your interpretation of the other teams's progress is accurate (and I'm certainly comfortable that it is, if you're confident in it). Being able to keep and whip most cities for proximate units is powerful; upgrading archers would be useful if/where we do encounter metal units, plus he's reduced my concerns about 1-tile cities. Still, whatever the likelihood of facing longbows eventually remains a concern.

JT, even with your correction, attacking with the axe first is clearly better, as it may allow our other cat to survive. In fact, Gator should at least consider promoting the cat to 1CR/1Barrage if the damage inflicted by the axe is severe and it is a favorite to win or retreat like that.

Athens: change worker to cat (whip for 2 pop when able) then worker

I notice that with 19 hammers overflow in Athens, it's going to get 30 hammers next turn. So if we let those 30 hammers go into a cat, we cant whip that cat for 2 population, which is ideal. If you let the 30 hammers go into a cat, then switch to a sword or elephant, wait one turn, and then whip, we will be able to whip two population and the overflow from that whip will go into the cat. If you whip a sword, the overflow will finish the cat. If you whip an elephant, it will take one additional turn. Meanwhile, the galleon can go to Ironsite next turn, drop off the chariot, pick up the elephant, and swing by Scandanavia to take a quick look at what kind of units the Vikings have. Then return to Athens to pick up the two new units and send them to attack whatever Civ our eastern fleet is attacking.

Bantu: granary

Bantu can whip its granary when it gets to Pop4.

WORKERS
We'll have 7 forest to chop at our new city site south of Gold City to finish CS and have some gold for upgrades.
Stop the workers on the rice at Gold City and chop forest at Parthian for faster cat.

While you're in the area, please look for good opportunities to work on a road connecting Tim, York, and Parthian. Tim especially will be whipped for quite a few units and needs a quick passage.

The worker in Athens can begin chopping forests to the south after finishing the mine. Same with any new worker from Athens, (although I oppose building any more workers).

MILITARY
Attack Baghdad now - bombard for accuracy, then combat1/cover/CR1 axe , then newly promoted CR2 catapult , save Arabian warrior for chariot from galleon

1 of 2 empty galleons by Baghdad explores NW to complete circumnavigation. Other galleon waits or moves for ship chain (initially will wait a turn)

If the galleon exploring NW finds a juicy city on the coast, two other galleons at Baghdad can pick up accuracy cat and other healthy survivors and get to work there.

Galleon SW of Ironsite transports cat from Athens whip plus the new WE (due in 2 turns) & drop off the chariot for worker road protection from homelamd barbs, then make contact with Purple Haze on its way north to Arabia.

Again, it might be better to use these units in the south. We should be set for units in Arabia with 15 + more chopped/whipped onsite.

1) Will circumnavigation complete when we "discover" the western Arabian city? That will complete a water path seperated by the one landmass, although some tiles are still fog. If so than that will occur either this turn or next.

No, we have to cover the entire breadth of the map, so the empty galleon from Baghdad needs to beeline for that goal.

3) To get the chop from the forest in Timb's border do we have to work the tile the whole time or only the turn we start chopping that tile and the turn we finish it?

Neither. You only have to go into the new city's city screen and make sure that the tile is unfogged by clicking on it, indicating that the new city can use the tile if it wants.

4) Don't we need to be careful about the whipping affect on researching CS? If we whip both Timb and Cart will it increase number of turns to CS?

If you're whipping population that was only producing 1-2 commerce, the effect will be minimal. Getting more units now is more important than getting CS one turn sooner.

5) Any reason to mess with the barb city on our homeland? Or do we wait until after our 15-20 turn production window for troops to the front is over and then go after it. (Gee, I think I just answered my own question.)

I'd leave it. Troops from Athens can be delivered directly from Athens.

Won't that get whatever units it carries in play much more slowly. I don't get this.

Sorry, by "support the eastern force", I meant drop off three units on the eastern side of whatever continent/island the 12 units from the eastern ocean get dropped off on. In other words, support those troops by attacking from both directions. That galleon can then return to Athens and pick up 3 more chopped/whipped units.

Compared to JT scenario, it certainly seems conservative to me. I think JT's approach is probably faster.

JT's approach of chopping the new city for cats definitely gets us more units, but chopping it for gold instead puts those forests to use faster, because we'll be able to upgrade several units (5-6) that are already in the field to macemen.

We can always start down the CS path for a turn or two and then abandon it if we find that maces are not needed. It potentially wastes over 300 gold but protects us incase we decide that CS is needed.

If the galleon by Athens moves as SCT suggests then we should know what type of troops the Purple Haze has in 3 or 4 turns. We could speed this up if the galleon went directly to the Purple Haze and then returned to Athens to unload the chariot. This will confirm that Purple Haze is the other "bigger" AI and could happen on the first or second turn (I'm currently not looking at the save so not sure if reachable in 1 turn).

I was also thinking that the northern most galleon NW of Arabia could proceed mostly due east for its first turn and maybe part of the second then drop down to Arabia if nothing is found in the fog north. With 1 AI being only 32 tiles we need to be careful about not sailing right by a large patch of fog. I'm hoping I can find the last AI within the first few turns based on where Fred has left the galleons. That is why I initially asked about sailing forward 1 or 2 turns with the empty southern galleon. I would think 1 of these 2 galleons should be able to find the last AI border in 2 turns.

We can always start down the CS path for a turn or two and then abandon it if we find that maces are not needed. It potentially wastes over 300 gold but protects us incase we decide that CS is needed. I'm fine with that.

If the galleon by Athens moves . . . and so forth -- I wouldn't go much out of my way to find civs. We'll soon be moving galleons 5 tiles at a time, and exploration will be quick. Getting units into play would seem a higher priority. Let's conquer some cities ASAP, get promotions, get healed, and adjust to the geography when we know enough to formulate a grand strategy.

There's a great deal of info in the thread. Don't envy you the task of synthesizing it all.

Good Luck

We shouldn't feel compelled to use cash just because we have it. The dilema is whether CS will speed up our victory or not?

I'm not 100% sure on the issue and am just thinking out loud...

Chopping the forests around our next settler may be better going into catapults.

Also, with cash in the bank and ten extra turns at 0% research we can be a little more ruthless with our whipping and maximising pure hammers for the next 15 turns. We also won't have to worry so much about the risk-vs-reward of keeping captured cities; basically any city with any whip/chop potential can be kept.

I know crossbows aren't very good offensive units, but we do have the option of building archers in captured cities and cash upgrading them to crossbows too?


The more I think of it the more I like the idea of skipping CS. We could research Monarchy and Archery in 5 turns and still have some cash left and I think that these techs would be more helpful in a scenario where we do a lot of whipping for the following reasons:


We get minimum 2 extra happy faces in all cities from wine and MP's.
In captured cities we can whip down to 1 pop because any whipped unit will offset the whip unhappiness.
It would be nice to be able to whip or chop archers to guard captured cities
When we dont use all our gold we can whip more agressively since our economy is not close to collapsing
As the immediate need for more gold disappears we can start now shipping workers to Baghdad where they can chop at least 4 units with the forests there.
Crossbows could be handy against enemy mele units.


I also think that having some extra cash for keeping more cities will speed up our attack considerably because building units locally is a big advantage. With such a strategy it's very likely that we don't need any more troops in Arabia just a bunch of workers. We already have 12 units there and we can produce at least 5 more in Baghdad. That should be more than enough to capture Mecca and Mecca can build even more units. This means that we can already now concentrate on how to get the war started against the remaining civs.

On the one tile hill cities... I'll let someone else crunch the numbers, but in the unlikely event we find one, my first glance at the combat calculator says CR3 swords and C2 elephants both have very strong chances to damage the unit. (For CR3 swords there is something like 56/100 archer hps left for the average encounter vs a CG1 archer.) With longbows we might struggle, but I consider that scenario very very unlikely.

I don't think we will get a fast finish if we plan for the unlikely event that we will face longbows on a single tile hill island. If we see such an island we could deal with it ASAP to finish it before longbows can be built. Arabia will certainly not get feudalism any time soon as they don't seem to have Monarchy.

1.) On the CS issue, we have a settler in 2 turns and if we settle 4 tiles due south of Gold City we can get 7 forest in the initial 9 (if I can work a forest from Timb's cultural expansion). That should be enough gold to complete research, not counting gold from captured cities.


I have changed my mind on this issue and suggest that we research Monarchy and archery and skip CS.


2) Since Arabia has no metal we should hit them fast and hard, capture and keep all decent cities plus we earn more gold which can be used to upgrade to maces as we move on the Purple Haze.

As I and JT have argued it is not the best strategy to use all 24 units against Arabia. We already have the units we need in Arabia since we can build extra units locally (5-6 units can easily be built in Bagdad alone and even more when we capture Mecca). Thus we must focus on doing the same thing to the other civs. The conquest against Arabia will be slower but it doesn't matter because when we finish Arabia we will also finish all other civs at about the same time. Using all units to capture the Arab cities would mean not getting started against the Vikings and our army would have a long walk down there.

DJMGator13]4) Don't we need to be careful about the whipping affect on researching CS? If we whip both Timb and Cart will it increase number of turns to CS?

That's one of the reasons why I would now prefer to research Monarchy and Archery instead of CS. It will allow us to use the whip more freely because we get extra happy faces and extra gold in the treasury.

Is our lead such that playing a tad conservatively is appropriate?


It looks as if we have a lead compared to CRC but who knows where we are compared to OSS and Murky Waters. MW seem to be doing extremely well judging from the score chart. If we have a lead of 15-20 turns on CRC it's still possible to loose it through bad logistics in the final war.

Galleon with worker - returns to pickup cat chopped from Parthian & London's cat & the WE

1 of 2 empty galleons by Baghdad explores NW to complete circumnavigation. Other galleon waits or moves for ship chain (initially will wait a turn)

I think it's important to use the free galleon to fetch some workers for chopping in Baghdad. No reason to have an idle galleon. As long as we can fill our galleons a galleon chain is not faster than just letting the galleons sail uncoordinated. Further, it's quite likely that we don need to add more units from home to our Arabian campaign.

You haven't mentioned any plan for the eastern galleons. I think it's important that we keep this force together and that we use it to capture a city that is far from Baghdad - preferably from the unknown civ. Concrete actions will depend on what we see as the galleons advance.

The more I think of it the more I like the idea of skipping CS. We could research Monarchy and Archery in 5 turns and still have some cash left and I think that these techs would be more helpful in a scenario where we do a lot of whipping for the following reasons:


I would say Monarchy and Archery/Crossbows are the best alternative uses of our gold and would be happy with those. Crossbowmen aren't quite as good as swordsmen at capturing cities but with a base strength of 6, they can do some serious damage to any pre-longbow unit. Hooking wine will let us whip harder in our home cities (we don't necessarily need to revolt to HR).

So if the new city is going to be chopped for units, we don't need to sync the chops (better not to actually). The question is what mix of units, and barracks or no barracks?

Breaking news: CRC appears to be done. I have caught CRC team members reading other team threads. Their last save post was on turn 223. Their finish date is probably around turn 225-230. We need to be looking to finish in 33 turns or fewer. Please let's stop for a minute and discuss what this means for our strategy.

I think you are right that they may be finished. 33 turns?

I did a quick inventory of our situation in the eastern ocean as we haven't discussed that much. Below is another screenie of the eastern ocean with a summary of time and distance for each Galleon present.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM06/380AD_Eastern_Ocean_Timing.jpg

I also counted the tiles for the 3 Swords in Carthage and estimate that we could have them in battle in the pink area civ in about 11 turns if they march to Ironsite and are loaded on Galleons there.

With 33 turns left, I think we have to do with what we have in Arabia, move the Galleon off the western Arabian coast in the direction we expect the unknown civ to be (south?). The middle Galleon should move directly east to SE to meet him the first there while the northern Galleon (5 turns away) also heads that way. If the smaller civ is there, perhaps that will be enough to do the job?

We then need to concentrate on how to produce enough units and line up the Galleons needed to transport those units to this civ asap.

I would still like to see what units they have before making the decision on CS. However, I think if we have enough Cats, Maces may not be needed. But it will require a fair number of Cats.

If we are talking about 33 turns, and 15 to 18 cities, that's a city every other turn. Knowing what is where will be key to accomplishing this. I think we will need to spend some Galleon time in recon.

I don't have time to figure it out atm but we need to efficiently find and map the last two civs as quickly as possible with the Galleon we have available. If we are satisfied with what we have landed in Arabia, and what we can produce there, I suggest we send a Galleon to pick up worker and send the other two to have a look around.

Perhaps Gator can play 2 to 4 turns and post the save so we can see what he has found?

We may have to let the economy go to hell and live off of captured spoils as much as we can. There is a lot to do and consider.

Gator, until we have figured this out, please don't feel pressured to start... ;)

Breaking news: CRC appears to be done. I have caught CRC team members reading other team threads. Their last save post was on turn 223. Their finish date is probably around turn 225-230. We need to be looking to finish in 33 turns or fewer. Please let's stop for a minute and discuss what this means for our strategy.

My first reaction is that this further emphasizes the need for hard whipping and that means that CS is not feasible within a time frame where it will help us much. Monarchy for the wine and maybe HR later and perhaps Archery. If we have any excess gold it can be used to upgrade archers to xbows. Our archers will come with two free promotions so they will be somewhat better than usual.

We may want to reduce turn set lengths even more. 33 turns is only around 3 sets. Seems quite impossible and it will definetely require very accurate play to even come close. I think this highligths the urgent need for starting a 2nd and 3rd war theater.

I wonder if CRC has gone for domination. Otherwise they must have conquered the remaining civs super fast (provided that we have an accurate estimate of their Astronomy date :confused:).

With 33 turns left, I think we have to do with what we have in Arabia, move the Galleon off the western Arabian coast in the direction we expect the unknown civ to be (south?). The middle Galleon should move directly east to SE to meet him the first there while the northern Galleon (5 turns away) also heads that way. If the smaller civ is there, perhaps that will be enough to do the job?

One thing we should remember is to alway move the leading galleon first. As soon as he sees something the trailing galleons can adjust their course.

I would still like to see what units they have before making the decision on CS. However, I think if we have enough Cats, Maces may not be needed. But it will require a fair number of Cats.

I don't think we can postpone this decision and my preference is to give it up and research Monarchy and Archery instead. We need heavy whipping and we need to keep many captured cities so researching CS within a reasonable time frame will be difficult.

If we are talking about 33 turns, and 15 to 18 cities, that's a city every other turn. Knowing what is where will be key to accomplishing this. I think we will need to spend some Galleon time in recon.

Information is very valuable and it must be balanced against the need for transporting units. Bringing workers to captured cities for chopping is also important. Ideally we should try to do a little scouting while moving units.

I don't have time to figure it out atm but we need to efficiently find and map the last two civs as quickly as possible with the Galleon we have available. If we are satisfied with what we have landed in Arabia, and what we can produce there, I suggest we send a Galleon to pick up worker and send the other two to have a look around.

I think we should move some workers to Baghdad ASAP for chopping units there. This must have very high priority. We could plan a route that would also give us some scouting info on the Vikings without wasting turns moving empty galleons.

Perhaps Gator can play 2 to 4 turns and post the save so we can see what he has found?

Good idea.

My first reaction is that this further emphasizes the need for hard whipping and that means that CS is not feasible within a time frame where it will help us much. Monarchy for the wine and maybe HR later and perhaps Archery. If we have any excess gold it can be used to upgrade archers to xbows. Our archers will come with two free promotions so they will be somewhat better than usual.

I'm thinking now that we should skip Monarchy as well. Revolting to HR is just a wasted turn. And with the money we save on Monarchy, we can upgrade more archers and whip even harder at the expense of our economy.

We may want to reduce turn set lengths even more. 33 turns is only around 3 sets. Seems quite impossible and it will definetely require very accurate play to even come close. I think this highligths the urgent need for starting a 2nd and 3rd war theater.

We at least need people to play only a few turns at a time and post back in the thread so we can discuss optimal tactics.

I wonder if CRC has gone for domination. Otherwise they must have conquered the remaining civs super fast (provided that we have an accurate estimate of their Astronomy date :confused:).

I don't think domination would be any faster than conquest. In the time it takes the cities you capture to come out of revolt, you could capture several more cities with a large army. I'd bet they just whipped really hard 15-20 turns before the end and poured loads of troops onto the enemy.

Breaking news: CRC appears to be done. I have caught CRC team members reading other team threads. Their last save post was on turn 223. Their finish date is probably around turn 225-230. We need to be looking to finish in 33 turns or fewer. Please let's stop for a minute and discuss what this means for our strategy.

Don't factor Murky Waters and Gypsy Kings out of your calculations either. I haven't read their threads (of course) but their graphs looks like they are still in the race though early on for both of them. The probable CRC finish date looks like a good date to work calculations agianst I think.

I'm thinking now that we should skip Monarchy as well. Revolting to HR is just a wasted turn. And with the money we save on Monarchy, we can upgrade more archers and whip even harder at the expense of our economy.

Not necessarily if it's well timed. Most of our hammers will be coming from chopping and whipping anyway so a single turn of revolt may not have a big impact. In fact it will save us some money. The two extra happy faces translate directly to hammers because we can whip more times before angry faces put a stop to working the prime city tiles.

Don't factor Murky Waters and Gypsy Kings out of your calculations either. I haven't read their threads (of course) but their graphs looks like they are still in the race though early on for both of them. The probable CRC finish date looks like a good date to work calculations agianst I think.

We shouldn't forget Smurkz and OSS either. If we can come close to CRC's date I think we have a good shot at a laurel of some kind.

New suggestions for workers:

In the north:
Stop all improvements.
Two workers chop forests north of Parthian.
Build a road connecting Parthian, York, and Tim as shown below.
Chop forests in new city into units.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/SG6-24.JPG

Tim's worker:
Finish banana plantation and then chop Tim's forests.

Horse City's workers:
Chop forests around Ivoryville

Athens's worker:
Stop mine and chop forests south of Athens.

Not necessarily if it's well timed. Most of our hammers will be coming from chopping and whipping anyway so a single turn of revolt may not have a big impact. In fact it will save us some money. The two extra happy faces translate directly to hammers because we can whip more times before angry faces put a stop to working the prime city tiles.

A single turn of revolt costs us all of that turn's hammers and surplus food (and in cities with a granary, surplus food is multiplied by 2-2.5 to get a hammer equivalent). That's going to add up to at least 150 hammer equivalents lost. Since we aren't yet close to not being able to work our best tiles in any city, I would suggest that we delay Monarchy for now.

A single turn of revolt costs us all of that turn's hammers and surplus food (and in cities with a granary, surplus food is multiplied by 2-2.5 to get a hammer equivalent). That's going to add up to at least 150 hammer equivalents lost. Since we aren't yet close to not being able to work our best tiles in any city, I would suggest that we delay Monarchy for now.

With HR we will be able to whip a captured city down to pop 1 without starvation because they will always be filled with healing units. I think those 150 hammers (~4 pop) are easily earned and in the best possible place - at the front line. Some of the growth will never contribute to our war effort anyway.

In the north:
Stop all improvements.
Two workers chop forests north of Parthian.
Build a road connecting Parthian, York, and Tim as shown below.
Chop forests in new city into units.

The London worker could be sent to Baghdad. I'm not sure if this is enough - at least we should prepare to send some workers with our galleons if they have vacant space.

Updated Plan
More edits in red

TECHS
CS in 10 aided by chops
Archery
Monarchy (can still hookup wine even w/o going to HR)

CITIES
London: Cat
Timbuktu: cat (whip now)
York: galleon switch to cat
Ironsite: WE
Ivoryville: settler
Athens: change worker to cat 1 turn (can't whip for 2 pop), switch to sword 1 turn then whip for 2 pop, should also complete the cat, then worker
Carthage: granary (whip now - will complete next turn when food box is half full))
Sparta: galleon change to sword (empty galleon returning for troop pickup) whip in 3 turns
Bantu: granary (whip when city at size 4)
Parthian: cat
Horse City: granary
Gold City: galleon switch to cat
(when founded) New City: cat (chop)


WORKERS (all new orders)
In the north:
Stop all improvements.
Two workers chop forests north of Parthian.
Build a road connecting Parthian, York, and Tim as shown post #832.
Chop forests in new city into units.

Tim's worker:
Finish banana plantation and then chop Tim's forests.

Horse City's workers:
Chop forests around Ivoryville

Athens's worker:
Stop mine and chop forests south of Athens.



MILITARY
Attack Baghdad now - bombard for accuracy, then combat1/cover/CR1 axe , then newly promoted CR2 catapult (save promo until after the axe attacks, if damage is severe enough on that archer then promo our cat to CR1/BAR1), save Arabian warrior for chariot from galleon

Galleon with worker - returns to pickup cat chopped from Parthian & London's cat & the WE (drop off work on peninsula west of London and start building a road)

1 of 2 empty galleons by Baghdad explores NW to complete circumnavigation. Other galleon returns homes to pickup workers for Baghdad

Galleon (loaded with troops) east of Baghdad - drop off WE to cover cat and wounded units and possible counter from chariot

Galleon SW of Ironsite drop off the chariot in Ironsite for worker road protection from homeland barbs, then make contact with Purple Haze before returning to Athens for transport of cat & sword from Athens whip plus the new WE (due in 2 turns) - then send these troops to support either the Eastern Ocean Task Force or after (Un)Known Leader, by that time.

Settler to new city site 4 tiles south of Gold City - this gives 7 forests (inclusive of the 1 from Timb that we must work)

Eastern Ocean Task Force
Southernmost empty galleon returns to Carthage to pickup swords.

Others proceed eastward to SE, moving the leading galleon first trying to find Unknown Leader. Greatest unknown is currently with these troops, will get better idea as the next turns play out.

Most troop movement should be by galleon.

POP RUSH STRAT:
Whip for 2 pop points at a time and when we are working tiles that are less than a combined 4f/h or 4c for example we'd whip a 2f/1h/0c tile but not a 2f/2h/0c tile.

Looks as though JT has won the argument without firing a shot.

Hopefully Gator isn't, but I am, unclear on when and how many workers to send to Arabia. Do we not need many of them to chop units in the next city we found, not to mention chopping units in other cities on our home continent?

"So if the new city is going to be chopped for units, we don't need to sync the chops (better not to actually). The question is what mix of units, and barracks or no barracks?" I think we need numbers and to take advantage of our quick promotions. We should also get a GG pretty soon to upgrade with.

Perhaps Archery before Monarchy. [edit: beat me to it, Gator.]

What is the sense of how much gold will be available for upgrading archers to crossbows? If gold is going to be a limiting factor, then chop mainly cats with a few WE's; if gold is going to be available, then chop cats and the much cheaper (in terms of hammers) archers to be upgraded.

" Other galleon returns homes to pickup workers for Baghdad." Don't forget at some point to pick up worker dropped off on plains hill of island.

Do we want to drop down to 8 turn sets with a 4 turn status check? My set will probably include more than a 4 turn report since I still plan to update as soon as contact is made with the next AI, plus battle updates on Baghdad.

Looks as though JT has won the argument without firing a shot.

Hopefully Gator isn't, but I am, unclear on when and how many workers to send to Arabia. Do we not need many of them to chop units in the next city we found, not to mention chopping units in other cities on our home continent?


Initially, I think we may have close to one galleon load. The galleon with 1 worker and an empty galleon are both going to be returning to the homeland and I'm not sure we'll have 7 new units in the north to fill them.

The galleon by Athens will have 3 units. If we end up sending this one more northward I might be able to sneak another worker onto it.

Timing on workers will be important also. If we get them there too early they may not have anything to do. I say this based on the pillaging that has already taken place at Baghdad. Workers in Arabia must be protected at all times from 2 move chariots that we know Arabia have and the yet unknown forces of the Purple Haze, plus barbs.

Initially, I think we may have close to one galleon load. The galleon w