Still not completely convinced that abandonment should be abandoned. Really like to know the answer to these two questions before deciding what to do: If the axe re-takes the city unopposed, will it go into anarchy for a turn(s)? Does the cat get any defensive benefit from culture?

If a Persian unit takes the city while it is still in revolt, the city will not be in anarchy for the Persians. The culture defense bonus will be whatever it was before we took the city plus whatever culture it would normally recover (maybe +6%). Cats receive no defensive bonuses.

Killing the Arab archer and abandoning the city this turn would give us a good chance of saving all three units and earning a promotion for the sword. The sword will be 99.99% to beat the cat inside the city, and if our elephant survives the battle with the Arab archer with at least 4.6 strength remaining, it would be favored against a counterattack by the axeman in Persepolis. If we have a good chance of saving the axe, sword, and WE, are we willing to give up the cats that we could whip in Parsargadae?

If we just keep our units in Parsargadae, I calculate that the Persian cat would be 65% to kill our WE. If we attack the Persian cat with our WE, win or lose, we're very likely to lose our WE. If the WE is killed, our sword and axe would be in serious jeopardy from the Persian axe, which may or may not stay inside Persepolis when it sees our galleons approaching. If our WE survives the attack from the cat, we have a pretty good shot at holding onto Parsargadae. The Arab archer will have a hard time killing our sword attacking accross the river. And if we have 3 units standing in Parsargadae, I don't think Persia will send out both the axe and the spear with our galleons approaching from the SE.

So if we stay put in Parsargadae, we probably have a 30-35% chance of keeping our three units and a 35-50% chance of being able to whip 2-3 cats that will actually come in time to help us win faster. If we abandon Parsargadae, we probably have a 80-90% chance of keeping our three units but a 0% chance of being able to whip cats there in time.

It's a tough call.

If we abandon the city it could also be captured by the Arab archer and that would make it more difficult to recapture.

If we abandon the city, the WE should attack the Arab archer.

Southern Theater:

Fred's Ferry drops off the cat and swords north of Persepolis on turn 207. Would like clarification that we are now nearing the end of turn 205. As F'sF passes Ectabana, I'd like to exchange a WE for a sword there so can drop off WE, cat, and sword SE of PER, thereby allowing the galleon to return quicker and the tile will be protected, allowing subsequent galleon(s) to drop off in just two turns.
On turn 207, the galleon from York lands its 3 units NW of Haithabu to avoid detection by the Vikings. The York galleon returns to serve London. Haithabu is razed and the survivors move NW to look for the missing Arabian city. Uncomfortable with this. What do we think defends Haithabu? The Viking HA's could trail our surviving units and pick us off. Rather get a WE there to contain the Vikings and perhaps keep city to faciltate troop movement.


Northern Theater:

Gator Buggy takes a cat, sword, and WE around the peninsula and lands north of Medina on turn 208, taking the city soon after if possible. Gator Buggy stays between Medina and Damascus to transfer units when necessary. MP's Floating Lab waits to move units from Mecca to Damascus. The 8/8XP WE promotes to Medic next turn and all units around Mecca heal. Mecca comes out of revolt on turn 210 and should be whipped for cats on turns 210, 211 and 213. The army in Mecca then attacks Damascus (or Damascus and Kufah simultaneously, depending on what happens with Medina). That's what I had in mind, though I'm going to see what the Damascus chariots do IBT before committing to it.

The cat, axe, and Xbow in Baghdad move west on turn 206 to begin the assault on Susa. The Xbow north of Baghdad stays put until turn 208 when we whip an archer. The new archer can be upgraded to an Xbow and 1 Xbow can move toward Susa. The Susa party attacks Susa if it is weak, or bombards and waits for reinforcements from the south if it is heavily defended. Comfortable with that.


Viking Theater:

Whip galleons in Ironsite and Athens on turn 208 and then continue production of the cat in Ironsite and the WE in Athens. Load these 2 galleons on turn 209. Load three accuracy cats onto the York galleon (returning from Haithabu) on turn 209 as well. Use the GG to promote the 0XP cat west of London, the 3XP cat and 3XP WE north of London, and the 3XP WE SE of London Don't we want this WE to board Ironsite galleon? There is a WE 6 tiles NW of London that I think we can have promoted and in place by 209. . Ironsite galleon, York galleon, and Athens galleon land 9 units north of Upsalla on turn 210, and then return to their respective ports for a second wave. These 9 units attack Upsalla after bombardment, and the survivors walk to Nidaros. Athens galleon and Leif's Longship bring a final shipment from Athens, Ironsite galleon brings a final shipment from Ironsite, and York galleon and Thunder Rider bring a final shipment from London, all to Nidaros.

I have an alternative plan for he use of the three stacked galleons-- see below.

Certainly agree that we will have to bail out under an axe attack. Unfortunately, I think that is very likely to happen.

This is probably a key point. Will the AI be willing to leave its capital defended by only two units?

I see a galley inside Persepolis so we can sail our attack force right up to the city.

The water access explains the difference in the land area count also.

Appreciate the work with the master plan :goodjob: This is the vision and framework that we need to coordinate our war theatres so each can be completed in time. I agree that we need some redundacny for city attack forces that cannot be reinforced easily (is this the Medina situation where we want to send 3 units right away but need to keep some backup units within reach?).

The situation in Parsargadae is a tough one indeed.

We could leave the WE and Axe in the city to heal while suiciding our sword on the catapult. The sword should badly wound the cat so that it won't attack next turn. The healed axe and WE will be able to keep the city from harm until it is out of revolt, and we will eventually get those three whipped cats that we want. The arabian archer will be insignifcant if we have our WE stay in the city.

This is probably a key point. Will the AI be willing to leave its capital defended by only two units?

I have a strong feeling (from experience) that the AI won't leave a size 13 city defended by less than 3 units. Haven't tested though. Did klarius provide some kind of analysis on this in the last sgotm for Murky Waters?

"Thunder Rider picks up a CR3 sword and 2 WEs from Athens on turn 206 and heads west with them. Next turn, it transfers them to Leif's Longship [No, not to LL but to Shannon's Raiders, which, after dropping units on ECT hill and heading west, will be perfectly positioned in 2 turns to chain with Thunder Rider. Moreover, this frees LL to reach the tile SE of London in just 2 turns where it can pick up 3 units that I'll have moved there.], and then to one of the three ships in the main floatilla that has been emptied. This last ship in the chain arrives at Tarsus on turn 208. After Tarsus has been razed, the surviving units get shipped to Gordium. Empty Thunder Rider heads north to serve London. Empty Leif's Longship goes east to serve Athens."

"The 3-galleon floatilla drops off 2 cats and the chariot SE of Ecbatana on turn 206" (Shannon's Raiders, specifically -- definitely want to do this)

"and sends the other 6 units to be dropped off at Persepolis on turn 208." I prefer the following alternative (mainly because I don't like tying up 3 galleons transporting all the way to Persepolis, when there is much else to be done and 2 galleons can get the job done in a timely manner through staging): Cactus Breeze follows F'sF to drop off WE and 2 cats in PER (cats should be particularly effective here and immediate bombardment is needed) and then, again following F'sF, returns to Ecbatana in just one turn to pick up six units there and transport them to PERS. rrau's raft is first sailed 3 tiles NW to find out what's in Birka and then towards Haithabu, where its troops will combine the following turn with those from the York galleon and then take the city the following turn with enough strength to hold it and hem in the Vikings. Leftover cats can subsequently be moved toward Birka or the Arab fog city as needed and rrau's raft will be free for other tranport as needed.

"Persepolis should be taken and razed on turn 210 or 211." Don't expect to get this done before 212, but the trade-off is being in better position elsewhere.

On turn 206, the three units in Ecbatana move north toward Birka." Birka will be delayed in favor of taking Haithabu, but its location makes it an extremely easy place to move available troops to.

The situation in Parsargadae is a tough one indeed. We could leave the WE and Axe in the city to heal while suiciding our sword on the catapult. The sword should badly wound the cat so that it won't attack next turn.

Never even considered sacrificing a 3CR sword, but that may be the best option. SCT, the odds of victory against the cat are only 11%, what is the expected damage in defeat?

Never even considered sacrificing a 3CR sword, but that may be the best option. SCT, the odds of victory against the cat are only 11%, what is the expected damage in defeat?

Cat would average 2.6 strength remaining after the battle. It would probably be healed to attack again after turn 207 (it will heal 1 strength per turn).

Cat would average 2.6 strength remaining after the battle. It would probably be healed to attack again after turn 207 (it will heal 1 strength per turn).

By 207, we could attack it with a healed WE and still have a nearly-healed axe in the city. Moreover, we'll have landed Fred's Ferry, so they might not even try to counterattack the WE if it wins.

Anxious to hear what the team's choice of the best bad Pasargadae option is, as well as comments on the routing of galleons for troop transport.

If we can get these two issues in agreement, what about my playing mid-morning tomorrow (about 16hours from now). Like to have the freedom to play 5-7 turns, depending on how it goes, but I would pause for consultation should new problems arise, as I expect they will.

By 207, we could attack it with a healed WE and still have a nearly-healed axe in the city. Moreover, we'll have landed Fred's Ferry, so they might not even try to counterattack the WE if it wins.

It's a shame to lose a CR3 sword like this but if it gets us 2-3 cats, I guess it's a good trade-off. I'm fine with JT's plan here.

Anxious to hear what the team's choice of the best bad Pasargadae option is, as well as comments on the routing of galleons for troop transport.

Your galleon routing plan also sounds reasonable. Ecbatana's three units can still move toward Birka next turn and the Xbow built there can follow behind. Birka has 50% culture so it would be good to get a cat working on it soon.

Anxious to hear what the team's choice of the best bad Pasargadae option is, as well as comments on the routing of galleons for troop transport.

If we can get these two issues in agreement, what about my playing mid-morning tomorrow (about 16hours from now). Like to have the freedom to play 5-7 turns, depending on how it goes, but I would pause for consultation should new problems arise, as I expect they will.

I don't know the transport/galley situation from the current save so don't have an opinion on this. For Pasargadae I think we either keep all units inside the city and take our chances against the catapult or we suicide our sword to prevent catapult attacking.

5-7 turns is quite a lot and should only be played if you have a very good idea of where all units need to be. Even if you don't strike any problems, stopping for a mid-turn examination (or kind-of health check) can give the team a chance to pitch in, even if all we have to say is "everything's looking really good!

Plan looks good to me. It would be nice to have more details - I am particularly missing numbers.

I prefer a solution where we try to hang on to Parsagadea. JT's suggestion is fine and sounds more safe than the others.

Some numbers:

We are now at T205 and aiming for conquest at T217 (+- a few turns).

The distance from Persepolis to Susa is 7 moves using roads. This means that units used in the capture of Persepolis will not be available to reinforce the Susa attack before T219 even withoput healing. Distance from Persepolis to Gordium is probably 4 but could be 5 so Persepolis units could possibly help here. Medina is even further away (8 moves).

Distance from Parsagadea to Susa is 5 moves so units built until T212 can be used to reinforce attack. Distance to Medina is 7 moves. Trip from Damascus to Kufah is 5 moves meaning that Damascus and Medina need to be captured or razed on T212 only 7 turns from now. Better hope that there is only one archer in Medina then. If we keep Damascus the galleon trip from Medina to outside Mecca is only 2 moves.

Distance to unknown Arab city? A guess is 4 moves from both Persepolis and Haithabu. Might be able to pull forces from both cities.

Ironsite galleon, York galleon, and Athens galleon land 9 units north of Upsalla on turn 210, and then return to their respective ports for a second wave. These 9 units attack Upsalla after bombardment, and the survivors walk to Nidaros.

Nine units may not be enough to overcome 5-6 defenders on a hilltop city - what are the prospects of getting more units there? It's a 4 move walk from Uppsala to Nidaros so T213 should be our latest time of capture.

CP, are you on top of the multiple unit whip we probably need to apply in Parsagadea and maybe also Mecca to prevent starvation?

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses). We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina.

I am fine with sacrificing the CR3 Sword to keep Pasargadae. We'll need the Cats from there at Susa, I think.

I see the logic in your proposal for moving the Galleons. I hope the force at Persepolis will be sufficient.

I'm a bit fuzzy about after this, so please bear with me. Once we have razed Persepolis, will those units head for Gordium and Tarsus, perhaps a few headed for Susa? And the two Galleons that take the units to Persepolis will remain in that area to move units?

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater?

And the rest of the troops will come from our home continent to take Haithabu, the missing Arab city, Uppsala and Nidaros. Birka will be assaulted by the force near Ecbatana.

Man, this is cutting it close. :hammer: :scan: :please:

I am fine with CP going 5 to 7 turns, but I understand why some might wish him to stop after a point. What point would that be? It seems once this octopus gets launched, there won't be much we can do to tweak it as things will be stretched quite thin. :eek:

"Your galleon routing plan also sounds reasonable. Ecbatana's three units can still move toward Birka next turn and the Xbow built there can follow behind. Birka has 50% culture so it would be good to get a cat working on it soon."
Will get a cat on it ASAP. BTW, will see if there are any horse archers around Birka before whipping a crossbow rather than a WE.


Plan looks good to me. It would be nice to have more details - I am particularly missing numbers.

I prefer a solution where we try to hang on to Parsagadea. JT's suggestion is fine and sounds more safe than the others. Okay, that's the option I'm going with.

Some numbers:

We are now at T205 and aiming for conquest at T217 (+- a few turns).

The distance from Persepolis to Susa is 7 moves using roads. This means that units used in the capture of Persepolis will not be available to reinforce the Susa attack before T219 even without healing. Will look to move some Mecca units towards Susa.Distance from Persepolis to Gordium is probably 4 but could be 5 so Persepolis units could possibly help here. Medina is even further away (8 moves).

Distance from Parsagadea to Susa is 5 moves so units built until T212 can be used to reinforce attack. You're making the case for HBR by 212. Distance to Medina is 7 moves. Trip from Damascus to Kufah is 5 moves meaning that Damascus and Medina need to be captured or razed on T212 only 7 turns from now. Better hope that there is only one archer in Medina then. If we keep Damascus the galleon trip from Medina to outside Mecca is only 2 moves.

Distance to unknown Arab city? A guess is 4 moves from both Persepolis and Haithabu. Might be able to pull forces from both cities.

Nine units may not be enough to overcome 5-6 defenders on a hilltop city - what are the prospects of getting more units there? It's a 4 move walk from Uppsala to Nidaros so T213 should be our latest time of capture.

All of the above is helpful and further argues for my pausing after a few turns to consider our position.

CP, are you on top of the multiple unit whip we probably need to apply in Parsagadea and maybe also Mecca to prevent starvation? Never done it before, but my understanding is that I can whip multiple units on the same turn that a city comes out of anarchy. Sort of queue them up, I guess, until there's no more starvation. Does the first one whipped come out first? If it's any more complicated than that, than I could certainly use a bit of tutoring.

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses)There is a road from Pasargadae to the river and on to the ocean. Why won't horses be available to us without keeping PERS?. We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina. I'm tentatively planning to keep Damascus, though I may delay its capure until near the end of my turn in order to send units towards Susa.

Any thoughts regarding whipping after galleons and what to do with workers?

We're going to need things to go our way to finish at 217. Don't need to know for my first few turns, but by about 210, I'd like to know what the odds are of victory at various turn numbers, if the chart readers among us can decipher that.

I'm a bit fuzzy about after this, so please bear with me. Once we have razed Persepolis, will those units head for Gordium and Tarsus, I intend to be flexible, but tentatively units coming from Athens via a chain(s) of galleons -- possibly swapping a unit for a crossbow near Ecbatana -- are likely to attack Tarsus and then move to Gordium. perhaps a few headed for Susa? And the two Galleons that take the units to Persepolis will remain in that area to move units? I anticipate getting at least one of them involved in chaining from the home continent.

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater? and from Pasargadae

And the rest of the troops will come from our home continent to take Haithabu, the missing Arab city, Uppsala and Nidaros. Birka will be assaulted by the force near Ecbatana really, by whatever troops are available, including a possible galleon load from London via Haithabu..

I am fine with CP going 5 to 7 turns, but I understand why some might wish him to stop after a point.

Will do. Plan to play in about 12 hours, unless there is another pause in the countdown.

Will do. Plan to play in about 12 hours, unless there is another pause in the countdown.
Good luck CP! :thumbsup:

:xmascheers: We may need a bit of Christmas in these next 10 turns... :rudolf:

May the Force be with you... :please:
:) :D :lol:

Never done it before, but my understanding is that I can whip multiple units on the same turn that a city comes out of anarchy. Sort of queue them up, I guess, until there's no more starvation. Does the first one whipped come out first? If it's any more complicated than that, than I could certainly use a bit of tutoring.

The last one you whip will come out first unless you queue swap. It looks like you will need to whip Parsargadae down to Pop6 to avoid starvation. That means you should whip an archer and then a cat on turn 210. The cat will be produced on turn 211 and we can let the archer be produced on turn 212 or we can whip another cat on turn 211 and let it be produced on turn 212, keeping the archer in the queue.

Mecca doesn't need to be whipped immediately, but I think we should anyway.

The last one you whip will come out first unless you queue swap. It looks like you will need to whip Parsargadae down to Pop6 to avoid starvation. That means you should whip an archer and then a cat on turn 210. The cat will be produced on turn 211 and we can let the archer be produced on turn 212 or we can whip another cat on turn 211 and let it be produced on turn 212, keeping the archer in the queue.

Mecca doesn't need to be whipped immediately, but I think we should anyway.

Thanks, that's really helpful.

I am concerned about the whip schedule in our home-continent cities. Haven't been following this. Where is Gator's spread sheet?

It's a bit off due to unexpected chops.

Ivoryville and Athens and Timbuktu can usually get a whip for a WE every 2 turns. I can't remember the town's name, but the most south east one is pretty whipped out, but if you keep the workers on the fish, you can whip a WE occasionally.

Thanks, that's really helpful.

I am concerned about the whip schedule in our home-continent cities. Haven't been following this. Where is Gator's spread sheet?

Getting ready to post it and then I find that Shannon has added to it. I'll be right back.

OK, here is the updated whip schedule. I took leif's port schedule and updated based on the posts indicated by the different colors. I also added some new whips trying to get units from the eastern cities earlier due to the travel distance. Also note that we can start whipping our western cities hard as certain builds complete. I've shown the items that were delayed by the galleon changes and other posts (or different from the last whip schedule) as strikethrus. (Btw, nothing needs to be done with the Gold City build.)


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/41442/Xteam_SG06whip3.jpg


I've also included the Excel file in a zip format.

EDIT:

I forgot to add Ecbatana to the list. Whip cat on turn 209 (2 pop) & 210 (1 pop). Combined with the Xbow whip from turn 207 this gives 3 units in 5 turns.

@Shannon - can we get away with whipping an archer on 207 (1 pop size 5) and then being able to whip 2 more cats and another archer in Ecbatana, instead of the 2 pop xbow? Also, Ironsite will take 4 turns to grow not 3 so the galleon can't be whipped until 209.

Will look to move some Mecca units towards Susa

I'm not sure that is a good solution. It seems to me that the critcal path is not the attack on Susa which can be reinforced in time from Pasargadea with 4-5 units. It looks much more difficult to capture both Medina and Damascus before T212 and be ready to march to Kufah (5 moves) and capture that last at T217. Kufah is a tough nut with at least 2 archers on a hill.

'm tentatively planning to keep Damascus, though I may delay its capure until near the end of my turn in order to send units towards Susa.

Have you forgotten about Kufah? We need around 6 fully healed unit to capture it.


You're making the case for HBR by 212.

At least we should make the final decision on HBR no later than T209 to allow for 3 turns of research.

There is a road from Pasargadae to the river and on to the ocean. Why won't horses be available to us without keeping PERS?.

As far as I remember you must have a coastal city to do trade on the ocean.

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater? and from Pasargadae

As I see the plan right now we send a cat, an axe and 2 xbows to Susa from Baghdad and then reinforce with 4-5 units from Parsagadea. There is a good chance that this is enough. As stated above I don't think we can spare any units from Mecca.

Regarding whipping cities down to pop 1. It could be the right course but it's not a given thing so we must consider several things: 1) If the whipped units can't reach port before turn 215 there is most likely no need to whip them. 2) If our economy is bad or if we need money for HBR we may not be able to afford the whipping.

@Shannon - can we get away with whipping an archer on 207 (1 pop size 5) and then being able to whip 2 more cats and another archer in Ecbatana, instead of the 2 pop xbow? Also, Ironsite will take 4 turns to grow not 3 so the galleon can't be whipped until 209.

The reason to maybe not whip an archer is that it takes one extra turn and 189 gold to upgrade it to an Xbow, and we might need to upgrade Xbows more urgently elsewhere, like Baghdad.

Ironsite's galleon CAN be whipped in three turns because it will have 33 hammers invested at that point and whipping 2 pop will make up the other 87 hammers needed.

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses). We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina.

Persepolis wouldn't come out of revolt until around turn 220, too late to be of any use.

As far as I remember you must have a coastal city to do trade on the ocean.

Not true. The river that leads to the ocean will connect Parsargadae to our trade network as soon as there is no enemy territory blocking the path.

Persepolis wouldn't come out of revolt until around turn 220, too late to be of any use.


I am fully aware of this as can be seen from my post. If it came out of revolt we would have to pay maintenance.

Not true. The river that leads to the ocean will connect Parsargadae to our trade network as soon as there is no enemy territory blocking the path.

I didn't know this. I guess what I remember is that building a road to the ocean doesn't connect.

EDIT: Leaving for Finland now, will be back Friday. Good luck CP!

The reason to maybe not whip an archer is that it takes one extra turn and 189 gold to upgrade it to an Xbow, and we might need to upgrade Xbows more urgently elsewhere, like Baghdad.

Ironsite's galleon CAN be whipped in three turns because it will have 33 hammers invested at that point and whipping 2 pop will make up the other 87 hammers needed.

I thought it might have been defense/speed issue for the xbow in Ecbatana. Saving the gold for use in the Arabian theather is good.

Ironsite needs to stay mm for hammers not food as I indicated.

Help on whipping, Susa tactics, etc. GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Playing now, but will continue to monitor thread if anyone has another thought. Hope to post an interim save at least by late tonight.

Again, wishes for good hunting and great fortune... :thumbsup:

Re-read the thread since rrau's save before beginning play and found SCT's comment: "Going into revolt because you can't support your units is considered a forbidden tactic."

It looks to me that going into revolt (we have the Pyramids, so probably Police State) towards the end might well allow us either to research HBR and get a few extra units in play or just to upgrade more archers. That could make the difference. My understanding is not the same as SCT's. I believe that it was ruled an exploit when a technique was used to remain in revolt for a large percentage of turns. I think we might even want to get a ruling on this from the moderators.

It looks to me that going into revolt (we have the Pyramids, so probably Police State) towards the end might well allow us either to research HBR and get a few extra units in play or just to upgrade more archers. That could make the difference. My understanding is not the same as SCT's. I believe that it was ruled an exploit when a technique was used to remain in revolt for a large percentage of turns. I think we might even want to get a ruling on this from the moderators.
I agree with your understanding of the rule.

The ruling is in this post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3540014&postcount=1)

This is what it says:
"Perpetual Anarchy: DISALLOWED: It is possible to operate in a near-perpetual state of anarchy to prevent losing units due to going broke with high maintenance costs. By revolting to anarchy, and ensuring that the anachy is a minimum of four turns, no units will be disbanded due to lack of maintenance funds during the anarchy period. On exiting anarchy, there is a one-turn grace period in which no units will be disbanded - long enough to produce more units from forest chops (that get stored-up in the production box during anarchy) and then revolt again. This is considered exploitive.

Playing Guideline: You are allowed to revolt however frequently you like, provided you can pay for your units! If you cannot afford your unit upkeep, you may not revolt until at least four turns* after then end of the last anarchy period.

*This period may be reviewed."

Even if we cannot afford our units, there are still periods where we may revolt. It seems to me it is using Anarchy in a continuous nature to avoid losing your units, that is banned. One, well timed, anarchy to change governments should not be considered an exploit.

EDIT - If we think this interpretation is incorrect, please let me know and I will contact AlanH or Gyathaar via PM to request a ruling.

I have the same interpretation as leif and CP.

This was considered an exploit in previous patches where there was a set number of turns (or a no-anarchy-turn-timer) between successive revolts, but these turns were counted from the first turn of anarchy and not from when the revolt was over. In a marathon game, if you could revolt for enough turns (say 5-6 turns), the no-anarchy-turn-timer would have expired by the time you came out of anarchy and you could go back into anarchy on the exact turn that you came out of revolt, thus entering perpetual anarchy. Since then, a patch has changed the no-anarchy-turn-timer to begin from the turn AFTER you come out of anarchy.

My interpretation is that this exploit is no longer possible and we can change civics as often as we want. (Not that this should be our plan). I think that we are free to be able to use this tactic if we wish, but I have the general impression that it is considered a cheap trick. I don't know why?

You still have to pay unit maintenance for a period of time when you come out of revolt, and you are sacrificing you entire empire's production and growth during those anarchy turns. The tactic has very limited value and is only appropriate at the very end of conquest and domination games that have been played right down to the line.

Since my team is obviously monitoring the thread, here is the turn log for 205 and 206 . . .

575AD (turn 205):

Made build changes and whipped units in accordance with counsel received.

Moved Ecbatana WE onto rice and found a Viking HA to be perched on the hill SE of Birka (will whip WE in Ecbatana rather than Xbow).

Attacked cat outside Pasargadae with sword – lost, but reduced cat to .5 (should be able to keep city).

IBT:

Viking chariot attacked Bagdad Xbow in city and lost, leaving it with a promotion (to cover) and one turn to heal (march to Susa delayed one turn, but glad to get promo and chariot eliminated).

Viking HA at Birka moved 2 tiles to plains NW of Ecbatana, and chariot came out of Birka and onto wheat.

At Pasargadae, Arab archer disappeared (frustrated that I did not see direction it went), and wounded cat remained in place (to heal or to invite attack?)

Damascus chariots did not advance on Mecca.

590:

rrau’s raft reveals only axe and spear in Birka

Successfully attack Viking HA and chariot near Ecbatana

York galleon, in route to Haithabu, reveals 7 defenders in Nidaros – 2 single-promoted archers, 2 HA’s, 1 cat, 1 spearman, and 1 sword

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.

MP’sFL sinks Arab trireme SE of Damascus.

1014 gold chopped.

Troops are moved as planned, and cities whipped as scheduled.

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.
Can't afford too many of these surprises... :rolleyes:

1014 gold chopped.
Good news. :high5:

Keep up the good work... :rockon:

Fred’s Ferry sails toward Persepolis and is shocked to find that there is no bay (which would have given easy access to the city), but a large lake to the west. This will slow the capture of Persepolis several turns.



Bummer :sad:

Update:

IBT: PARS cat, now at 1.3, foolishly (because that tile is not in range of spear) moves 1 tile east to approach worker that I’ve put on forest.

605AD (turn 207):

WE dispenses with cat, with no damage to unit, but later find that Cyrus has built another un-promoted cat in PERS.

York galleon and rrau’s raft drop units at Haithabu, which is defended by a lone promoted archer, but has roads to both Birka and Nidaros. Moreover, the lake east of PERS may extend north to just east of Haithabu, so the missing Arab city probably (still too much fog to be certain) cannot be reached from HAIT, only from PERS (which is not good and makes the timely capture of PERS imperative).

Can’t get the right units set up for promotion and still able to board the returning York galleon next turn, so am going to send the GG to HAIT and probably promote wounded units, perhaps relevant to the siege of Nidaros.

MP’sFL reaches Medina with three units (cat, WE, and sword) aboard and finds the city at 20% culture and defended by 2 twice-promoted archers. Three units would be favored to take it after bombardment and cat attack.

Sounds like we may have captured a couple more cities when CP's next update comes in. :ar15:

Possible draw-out maneouvre:
If units in pasagardae (sp?) are healed you might leave the city undefended for one turn which may draw out the persepolis cat. Once you have the cat next to the city you may be able to use the worker to draw the cat out of back-up range of the spear once again and then kill him with our WE. Only try this if you are 100% sure that pasargard will be safe.

No galleon access to Persepolis... how does this affect our master plan? Are any adjustements needed right now to allow coordination of all attack fronts to finish at the same time (and before our target date) ?

Sounds like we may have captured a couple more cities when CP's next update comes in. :ar15: Hope so. Won't be able to play anymore for about three hours and intend to post a save (wherever I am) before retiring.

Possible draw-out maneouvre:
If units in pasagardae (sp?) are healed you might leave the city undefended for one turn which may draw out the persepolis cat. Once you have the cat next to the city you may be able to use the worker to draw the cat out of back-up range of the spear once again and then kill him with our WE. Only try this if you are 100% sure that pasargard will be safe. That's partly why I was frustrated with not knowing where the Arab archer went, but I think I can pull this off safely once the axe completes healing next turn.

No galleon access to Persepolis... how does this affect our master plan? Are any adjustements needed right now to allow coordination of all attack fronts to finish at the same time (and before our target date) ?

I may err on the side of overkill in getting units to PERS, but, otherwise, there are presently too many unknowns to completely coordinate all fronts. By the time I post a save tonight, that may be worth considering.

Don't be too cautious.

BTW, Team OSS has posted a 485AD save and it shows a slight slow down on their power graph. I'd say it puts us and them dead even on power points at 485AD, but we have been able to keep up the heavy whipping. Should be a fun finish.

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT TO 635AD



IBT: No movement except cat disappears from PERS.

620AD (turn 208):

Take Haithabu with loss of one cat.

Barb axe found up in jungle 2 tiles NW of PARS.

Persian axe and cat found on copper 2 tiles SW of PERS.

Find an un-promoted archer, spear, and 4 workers in Tarsus.

Uppsala defended by 2 un-promoted archers, 1 spear, 1 sword, and 1 settler.

IBT:

Cat built in Nidaros, and the two Uppsala archers and settler move out of city.

Persian cat on copper near PERS disappears, but probably is on hill NW of Gordium.

Barb archer approaches Mecca (a chance to gain a promotion).

Barb axe near PARS disappears in fog.

635:

Mecca sword kills barb, now 5.3 with CR3 promotion available.

Kufah found to now have 50% culture, but only 2 archers defending.

Cannot find missing Arab city. Are we sure it exists?

Move units just NW of Uppsala to cut off archers from city.

Begin an advance on Tartar because gold from razing will be useful.


The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/SGOTM06_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

This is a good stopping point, as there are questions to be answered and decisions to be made. I will not play again until the team has reached agreement on a coordinated plan for victory.

I’ve left an archer near London (who could be upgraded) unmoved this turn because I'm not sure if an upgrade is a good investment. A Xbow would speed fall of Nidaros, but that is not critical to our finish date if there really is a missing Arab city.

2 units in Mecca, and the Gator Buggy are also unmoved, because I’m not sure whether the GB needs to start searching the islands to the north or the land in the north of the AI continent for another Arab city or whether that's a red herring and those units should be used against cities we know exist.

Whipping in Mecca and Pasargadae needs to be planned, though options are limited because the problems with Persepolis have delayed considerably attaining an outlet to the ocean and access to resources..

I do not anticipate problems taking the Viking cities, but the remaining Arab cities and Susa could cause difficulties. (On the other hand, they could all be taken in 9 turns with good fortune.)

HBR remains an option with pros and cons, centering on how helpful it would be in whipping units on the AI continent to finish off the Arab cities and Susa. There is also a chariot near Persepolis that it would be useful to have upgraded.

I won't be able to chip in with comments from looking at the save until at least Saturday, sorry.

Nice work CP. :goodjob: Looks like you have us in good position to win in 8-10 turns.

2 units in Mecca, and the Gator Buggy are also unmoved, because I’m not sure whether the GB needs to start searching the islands to the north or the land in the north of the AI continent for another Arab city or whether that's a red herring and those units should be used against cities we know exist.

Just did a tile count. Damascus, Kufah, and Medina make 50 tiles, exactly what the demographics screen shows Arabia as having (51*3 - 71 - 32 = 50). There is no mystery Arab city. And there are no other unknown Viking or Persian cities either. The only thing we don't know is what units are in Susa. :D

Whipping in Mecca and Pasargadae needs to be planned, though options are limited because the problems with Persepolis have delayed considerably attaining an outlet to the ocean and access to resources.

You'll need to start by whipping an archer and cat in Parsargadae to avoid starvation. Whip second the one that you want to come out first.

HBR remains an option with pros and cons, centering on how helpful it would be in whipping units on the AI continent to finish off the Arab cities and Susa. There is also a chariot near Persepolis that it would be useful to have upgraded.

Where can we actually build HAs on the AI continent? Parsargadae and Mecca won't be connected to our network for a while will they? And I didn't think chariots could be upgraded to HAs now that they are better against axemen than HAs.

If there's truly a city missing, we need to send GB north to look for it, but first:

In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture? Could this account for the missing tiles? Or is there an Arabian city, 1 culture tile only deep in Persian lands?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/AngelSpice2/ScreenShot020.jpg

Persepolis: go to hill N of city to avoid river crossing penalty. All surviving units need to head N for other big persian city as the only road there appears to be from Persiopolis.


FF and surviving units from Tarsus to Gordinium.

Either of the generic galleons could chain to Thunder rider then to Shannon's for delivery S. of Persiopolis or continue around to Damascus.

Damascus and Medina needs troops committed to them.

Nice work CP. :bowdown:

You have positioned us well. :high5:

Where can we actually build HAs on the AI continent? Parsargadae and Mecca won't be connected to our network for a while will they? And I didn't think chariots could be upgraded to HAs now that they are better against axemen than HAs.
It looks to me like once Persepolis and Birka are gone the connection will be Ecbatana through to Pasargadae.

The question is whether we can afford to research HBR at this point? Going to 100% research says 4 turns at -253 gpt. :eek: And we have 734 Gold in the treasury, although that should grow considerably with taking Persepolis, Birka, Tarsus, etc... :D

Persepolis: go to hill N of city to avoid river crossing penalty. All surviving units need to head N for other big persian city as the only road there appears to be from Persiopolis.
The Cats can still bombard from across the river. That is unaffected?

Damascus and Medina needs troops committed to them.
Lots of :whipped: to do up north.

Good news SCT on the confirmation that we know of all cities. :clap:

A bit concerned about troops levels in the north but I don't see what we can do about it except whip and chop as quickly as we can.

Looking at our home cities, I am amazed they are not more whip unhappy. :goodjob:

No penalty to bombard across the river, but there is one to attack across it.

Looking at the save again, I think we are in really good shape.

Persepolis can be taken on turn 212. On turn 210, the three units west of Pers can stay where they are to let the cat bombard. Units SW of Pers can also stay where they are. On turn 211, the three units west of Pers can move NE to cross the river. All other units can assemble SW of Pers. On turn 212, CR2 cat attacks from the north, all other cats attack from the SW, and then swords and WEs mop up. Survivors of the battle can help with Gordium.

I think the WE in Parsargadae should move toward Susa next turn. He'll get there on the same turn as the Xbow and cat from Baghdad. We might find a lightly defended city that a cat, Xbow, and WE could take down. Otherwise, we'll be able to follow up with 2-3 cats whipped in Parsargadae. Susa could be captured as early as turn 214. Parsargadae will be defended by the axe, and with whipped units coming every turn, Parsargadae is safe.

Birka can be taken on turn 211. The Xbow can open the attack and kill/wound the axe. Follow with a sword and Birka is going to have no chance. Birka/Haithabu units can then move toward Nidaros.

Upsalla can also be taken on turn 211 without cat bombardment at the likely expense of a couple WEs. But maybe there's no rush.

Medina can likely be taken on turn 210 if we land the WE this turn. Or we can wait one more turn so the cat can bombard on turn 210 and suicide on turn 211, saving our sword and WE for Damascus.

Damascus can be taken without cats. Mecca can whip cats on turn 210 and 211, and those cats built on turns 211 and 212 can head to Kufah. With three suicide cats, a CR3 sword, and an Xbow, Kufah should fall. Damascus can be dealt with by our survivor(s) from Medina and the 2 swords and WE from Mecca.

"In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture?" Educate me, rrau. What is a 'cultural world view', and how do you see it?

Looking at the save again, I think we are in really good shape. I'd like to know exactly how good a shape relative to other teams. Expect exact is too much to ask, but can we come up with the probability of coming in first if we finish in 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. turns? That would be especially helpful to JT, if he has to make a call between being agressive or conservative in taking the last city(s).

Persepolis can be taken on turn 212. On turn 210, the three units west of Pers can stay where they are to let the cat bombard. Planned to do that. Units SW of Pers can also stay where they are. On turn 211, the three units west of Pers can move NE to cross the river. All other units can assemble SW of Pers. On turn 212, CR2 cat attacks from the north, all other cats attack from the SW, and then swords and WEs mop up. Need to study this. Not exactly what I had in mind.Survivors of the battle can help with Gordium.

I think the WE in Parsargadae should move toward Susa next turn. He'll get there on the same turn as the Xbow and cat from Baghdad. We might find a lightly defended city that a cat, Xbow, and WE could take down. Otherwise, we'll be able to follow up with 2-3 cats whipped in Parsargadae. Susa could be captured as early as turn 214. Parsargadae will be defended by the axe, and with whipped units coming every turn, Parsargadae is safe. Agree with all that.

Birka can be taken on turn 211. The Xbow can open the attack and kill/wound the axe. Follow with a sword and Birka is going to have no chance. Birka/Haithabu units can then move toward Nidaros. Also might be possible to get some to Gordium, if it is well defended.

Upsalla can also be taken on turn 211 without cat bombardment at the likely expense of a couple WEs. But maybe there's no rush. There probably is no rush, but, should no archer be built in Uppsala IBT (and I suspect it might be, or the archers and settler wouldn't have departed the city), what about attacking next turn with the three landed units plus amphibious assault? We'd take very heavy losses, but there is an abundance of units. Further, the Vikings might weaken themselvess by sending units to re-capture Uppsala and we could sail into the city to eliminate the counterattackers.

Medina can likely be taken on turn 210 if we land the WE this turn. Or we can wait one more turn so the cat can bombard on turn 210 and suicide on turn 211, saving our sword and WE for Damascus. I'm inclined to wait a turn here.

Damascus can be taken without cats. Mecca can whip cats on turn 210 and 211, and those cats built on turns 211 and 212 can head to Kufah. With three suicide cats, a CR3 sword, and an Xbow, Kufah should fall. Damascus can be dealt with by our survivor(s) from Medina and the 2 swords and WE from Mecca. I will send the worker on the hill NE of Medina to find out what is in Susa next turn. If it is heavily defended, I may send the crossbow near Kufah to Susa (he's positioned so he can get there as soon as the axe). In that case, how do you like our odds if I send one of the Mecca swords to Kufah and one of the whipped cats to Damascus?

Becoming convinced that HBR is not worth it.

Would like some ideas about what to do with the GG now in Haithabu.

I agree. Things are looking up. :goodjob:

Now if we can survive the RNG, we'll be all set... ;)

The question is whether we can afford to research HBR at this point? Going to 100% research says 4 turns at -253 gpt. :eek: And we have 734 Gold in the treasury, although that should grow considerably with taking Persepolis, Birka, Tarsus, etc... :D

I don't think we can afford HBR and I don't think it will do any good either. Horse archers only get from Parsargadae or Mecca to their intended targets one turn earlier than cats. And cats are much more useful for taking cities.

Our financial situation is not quite as bad as it looks in the save. CP has MMed Athens, Ironsite, and York for production and growth at the expense of working gold mines. We can switch back to gold mines in those three cities (and MM other cities for commerce) in a few turns when we've produced all the units we can use. We should be able to MM for another 30-35 GPT.

"In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture?" Educate me, rrau. What is a 'cultural world view', and how do you see it?

Zoom out far enough so that the menu buttons in the bottom right corner change. Hit the :culture: button.

I'd like to know exactly how good a shape relative to other teams. Expect exact is too much to ask, but can we come up with the probability of coming in first if we finish in 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. turns? That would be especially helpful to JT, if he has to make a call between being agressive or conservative in taking the last city(s).

Murky Waters is looking very strong now. We may not have a chance for the Gold. OSS and Smurkz are right with us, so I'd say we should be reasonably aggressive in taking the last cities. So use cats for suiciding and not bombarding if it means having a strong chance of taking the city one turn earlier. Just be careful about being aggressive in a situation where bad luck will set us back several turns.

I will send the worker on the hill NE of Medina to find out what is in Susa next turn. If it is heavily defended, I may send the crossbow near Kufah to Susa (he's positioned so he can get there as soon as the axe). In that case, how do you like our odds if I send one of the Mecca swords to Kufah and one of the whipped cats to Damascus?

CR3 swords will be favored in Kufah after bombardment, and probably heavily favored if we suicide 2 cats.

Damascus should be quite easy to take if our sword and WE survive Medina. The 2 archers are the only units to worry about there. Chariots are going to mincemeat against swords and WEs.

So I think you can make a judgement call about whether to send the Xbow to Susa or Kufah.

"In the culture worldview, some Persian cities have what appears to be conflicting Arabian Culture?" Educate me, rrau. What is a 'cultural world view', and how do you see it?
The sceenie in rrau's post, #1293, shows it. North of Susa, near Kufah, you can see that the tiles are checked with the colors of both Arabia and Persia. To see in game, you can click on "Glove View", it is located on the extreme right above the mini-map, and then click on the culture view, it looks like two pink musical notes, and the display will come up.

I will send the worker on the hill NE of Medina to find out what is in Susa next turn. If it is heavily defended, I may send the crossbow near Kufah to Susa (he's positioned so he can get there as soon as the axe). In that case, how do you like our odds if I send one of the Mecca swords to Kufah and one of the whipped cats to Damascus?
When you double whip Mecca, will it be an Archer and a Cat, then a WE? You could replace the X-Bow heading for Susa with the whipped one and then send a WE to Damascus?

Becoming convinced that HBR is not worth it.
It is looking like it would not provide any return.

Would like some ideas about what to do with the GG now in Haithabu.
Once Birka is gone, we could send him towards Susa if it is heavily defended for promotions of units there before we attack. He can move faster than our units?

Another option would be to have him help with promotions to take Nidaros. I don't think using more Galleon space for him is worth it though. We need to get those units from home to Nidaros.

Our financial situation is not quite as bad as it looks in the save. CP has MMed Athens, Ironsite, and York for production and growth at the expense of working gold mines. We can switch back to gold mines in those three cities (and MM other cities for commerce) in a few turns when we've produced all the units we can use. We should be able to MM for another 30-35 GPT.
As we take cities, I think we will be OK. Not going for HBR will also help. As long as we can pay for Archer upgrades.
An Chariots cannot be upgraded to HA's, so we would have to pop-rush what we need.

All other units can assemble SW of Pers. On turn 212, CR2 cat attacks from the north, all other cats attack from the SW, and then swords and WEs mop up. Need to study this. Not exactly what I had in mind. Survivors of the battle can help with Gordium.

If we keep most of our units SW of Pers, on the same turn that we take the city, we can load survivors onto a galleon and sail toward Gordium. Transfer them to the other galleon near Gordium (on turn 212) and land them on turn 213.

There probably is no rush, but, should no archer be built in Uppsala IBT (and I suspect it might be, or the archers and settler wouldn't have departed the city), what about attacking next turn with the three landed units plus amphibious assault? We'd take very heavy losses, but there is an abundance of units. Further, the Vikings might weaken themselvess by sending units to re-capture Uppsala and we could sail into the city to eliminate the counterattackers.

Sounds like a good idea if there are only two units in Upsalla next turn.

When you double whip Mecca, will it be an Archer and a Cat, then a WE? You could replace the X-Bow heading for Susa with the whipped one and then send a WE to Damascus?

Xbows are not so good against Mecca, with no melee units to kill. WEs can't be whipped without a connection to our network. So I'd say Mecca should whip only cats. There's no need to double whip Mecca, as it has plenty of food. I'd whip cats on turns 210 and 211, and then start building an archer (probably useless).

Once Birka is gone, we could send him towards Susa if it is heavily defended for promotions of units there before we attack. He can move faster than our units?

Another option would be to have him help with promotions to take Nidaros. I don't think using more Galleon space for him is worth it though. We need to get those units from home to Nidaros.

Sending the GG to Susa risks getting him killed by wandering units. I seem to remember an Arab archer wandering around somewhere. I would say just upgrade units in Haithabu. Some CR2/Accuracy cats would be nice.

Just did a tile count. Damascus, Kufah, and Medina make 50 tiles, exactly what the demographics screen shows Arabia as having (51*3 - 71 - 32 = 50). There is no mystery Arab city. And there are no other unknown Viking or Persian cities either. The only thing we don't know is what units are in Susa.

I doubled checked and agree. Numbers match up. To get Rival Average of 51 means Arabia has 51 tiles this time, which is the total from the 3 visible cities. Difference may be attributed to a city that was captured that turn when I did the calculation last time, that was probably a beginning of the turn number.

Persia has picked up some tiles from expansion not from a new city, so no change there.

IBT:

Cat built in Nidaros, and the two Uppsala archers and settler move out of city.

I'd try to pick off those archers before they can found a city and get a defensive bonus.

I don't think we can afford HBR and I don't think it will do any good either. Horse archers only get from Parsargadae or Mecca to their intended targets one turn earlier than cats. And cats are much more useful for taking cities.

Our financial situation is not quite as bad as it looks in the save. CP has MMed Athens, Ironsite, and York for production and growth at the expense of working gold mines. We can switch back to gold mines in those three cities (and MM other cities for commerce) in a few turns when we've produced all the units we can use. We should be able to MM for another 30-35 GPT.

HBR no good now. As SCT says in a few turns when production is done we can also do our civic change to either Police State or even better to Representative and Caste (3 turn of anarchy) then we hire Merchants and get extra happy people in our 5 largest cities.

Xbows are not so good against Mecca, with no melee units to kill. WEs can't be whipped without a connection to our network. So I'd say Mecca should whip only cats. There's no need to double whip Mecca, as it has plenty of food. I'd whip cats on turns 210 and 211, and then start building an archer (probably useless).
I think you're right. :blush: Missed that we weren't hooked up and won't be in a reasonable amount of time... :sad:

I think you're right. :blush: Missed that we weren't hooked up and won't be in a reasonable amount of time... :sad:

It would take capture/raze of Kufah and roading of tile NW of Baghdad for Mecca to be hooked up. [EDIT: If Kufah & Mecca connected.]

BTW, the Civ4/Warlord Excel reference download file v1.61+W2.08
incorrectly shows chariots as upgrading to HA.

Having studied SCT's suggestions regarding PERS, I'm going to move the 2 swords SE of the city to the hill north of the city over the next two turns; otherwise, I'll play at as he outlined it.

There seem to be no outstanding issues unresolved, so I'm going to go ahead and play a couple more turns, then hand it over to JT.

Sounds good. I will be playing my turns very slowly with our thorough plan sitting on the desk next to the computer.

We should be able to play the last turns as an exact science and close this one out.

I agree with SCT's comment to play aggressively everywhere except for where a bad combat roll will set us back for more than a turn.

Something to do while CP plays.

Murky Waters is looking very strong now. We may not have a chance for the Gold. OSS and Smurkz are right with us, so I'd say we should be reasonably aggressive in taking the last cities. So use cats for suiciding and not bombarding if it means having a strong chance of taking the city one turn earlier. Just be careful about being aggressive in a situation where bad luck will set us back several turns.

Been comparing the Score Graphs to the Power Graphs:

OSS: T189=762, T194=749, T199=724 while their power graph still show increase but at a slower rate. They may have overwhipped their population, but they may have amassed a large invasion force before attacking. Their power is still increasing but at a slower rate then when they were mass whipping. It will be interesting to see their next save's affect on the Power graph. They may not have enough population to replace units lost in battle. Compared to us they are behind in score but about even in power at 485AD.

Murky Water: T173=809, T178=899, T184=870. The 30 point drop surprises me. Did they overwhip, also or did they amass a large force and then launch attack on the other continent? Next save's Power graph might reveal. Ahead of us in both score and power at 260AD.

Smurkz: their graphs look more similar to ours, as in their growth in power graph did not come at the expense of their score. They may have whipped while attacking as we did. At 470AD they are only slightly behind us in score and power.

This may come down to things like did the AI build cities on hills in their games like most of the Arabian cities are here and did any AI get to Longbows.

I guess: :scan:
Smurkz's pace is about the same as us.
OSS are have had a similar pace to us pre-astronomy but are using the whip much more than us, even before finding the distant continent.
Murky Waters are ahead of us pre-astronomy and will likely have a decent pace for the final conquest phase too.

From the graphs, MW are in a strong position for gold and we are in the middle of a fierce contest for silver.

I think we employed a very strong strategy pre-astronomy with the early connection of metals and the early capture of Timbuktu. Without a few of our little mistakes and an unfortunate battle at Carthage, our score/power graph would have been off the charts :)

I think we employed a very strong strategy pre-astronomy with the early connection of metals and the early capture of Timbuktu. Without a few of our little mistakes and an unfortunate battle at Carthage, our score/power graph would have been off the charts :)

The other thing I have been wondering about our strategy is whether it would have been better to chop the Pyramids in Athens than the gold we chopped there. It might have increased our average beaker rate with all of the scientist specialists we were using.

Speaking of gold chops there is a 6 forest city spot by Carthage and Bantu, if we settle on the eastern most wine. Timb could poprush current sword build then use the 15 hammer overflow to start a settler. Let Timb grow back to size 5 while claiming the 36 hammer forest chop, then poprush the settler for 2 more pop. We only need to road 1 tile to provide stone off the river from Bantu and there are workers in the area of Timb, Bantu and Ivoryville that can all chop the wall.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1345/xteamsgv06032xq9.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06032xq9.jpg)

Here is the save and my log for the last two turns . . . went well, though additional AI unit builds have made it more difficult, and additional ones would now be truly troublesome.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_AD0665_01.CivWarlordsSave

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT TO 665AD


IBT: Arab archer moves out of fog and onto roaded forest SSE of Mecca; additional axe built in PERS; new archer built in Upsalla, and the 2 roving Upsalla archers and settler disappear to the north.

650AD (turn 210):

Cannot whip more than one unit at a time in Pasargadae or Mecca -- must have misunderstood something.

Barb axe revealed NNW of PERS, threatening units we would like to move onto hill north of city.

Raze Tarsus, with loss of 1 WE and very little damage to other 2 units.

Gordium revealed to contain single-combat-promoted axe and spear, along with 2 cats (no culture).

Maneuvered units into position everywhere -- in particular, managed to cut off Viking archers (eliminating one with amphibious cat attack – first time for everything) and settler.

Prioritized gold production in cities.

IBT: Saladin learns Alphabet – glad he wasn’t researching Feudalism; barb axe near PERS stays put, leaving hill still available; another twice-promoted archer is built in Damascus and fog archer moves towards Damascus as well (will force wounding 3CR sword to stop him)

665 (211):

Susa revealed to be on grass, 50% culture, defended by 2 cats, 1 spear, 1 single-promoted archer in city, with an identical one in position to move in next turn. (Too many units!)

Birka falls without losses, replenishing treasury.

There is now only a cat, spear, and archer in Gordium, because an axe and archer (presumably built during the IBT) have moved onto the forest NW of city. They are revealed by our worker, whom I will leave with 3 tile moves left this turn (letting JT see what the situation is and also considering leaving him there to attract the two Persian units further away from the city). I have backed off Cactus Breeze to further encourage venturesome behavior.

With all the new AI archers being built, I decided to go ahead and attack Medina before another one appeared there. Sacrificed cat and badly-wounded sword, but WE razed city without damage. I have left MP’s Floating Lab unmoved to allow team to decide whether to use it to transfer Medina survivors to Damascus or to sail south to chain with Cactus Breeze, leaving the tired and wounded to trek to either Susa or Damascus.


QUICK NOTES TO JT

Cactus Breeze could get some, or all, of the three units aboard to Damascus in 4 turns (3, chaining with MP’sFL).

There is a worker that will finish a road next turn under the cat and sword 2 tiles NNE of Ecbatana. Those two units and the nearby Xbow could reach Gordium in two turns, perhaps freeing Cactus Breeze’s units for other missions.

Can’t be absolutely certain that the galley underneath the trireme near Bagdad is empty -- though it has been sitting there for a long time – and I am therefore a bit reluctant to move the Xbow toward Kufah. The team can decide how likely it is to be needed and if that’s worth the little risk.

The axe and Xbow near Kufah have been marched from Bagdad so that we have the option of using them against either Kufah or Susa. If I had the mouse, I would move the then-healed sword in Mecca the next two turns toward Kufah, as I moved the Xbow and axe onto the forested hill SE of the city. I would then attack Kufah, with both available for mop-up duty but hoping that neither would be needed and could continue on toward Susa, without having been delayed in their journey.

Seems like we are progressing well :goodjob:. Looks like we can beat the CRC date and it's going to be a really exciting finish with OSS and Smurkz. I think we deserve a laurel but I'm not sure they have the same opinion on that matter :D. Tough luck for the team that get's to be 4th by only a copule of turns.

Haven't had time to check the save yet so I don't have any suggestions except some general words of wisdom I picked up on the net:

-If you had purchased $1000.00 of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $49.00.
-With Enron, you would have had $16.50 left of the original $1000.00.
-With WorldCom, you would have had less than $5.00 left.
-If you had purchased $1000 of Delta Air Lines stock you would have $49.00 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer/wine 1 one year ago, drank all the beer/wine then turned in the cans/bottles to the aluminium recycling REFUND, you would have had $214.00.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to Drink heavily and recycle.

Are you all ready to become investors? :beer: :D

:bowdown: Nice work CP!! :high5:

We are making progress. Now to push to a finish.

Roster:
Jimmy Thunder - UP
Leif - On Deck
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg
Gator
rrau
Cactus Pete - just played! :cheers:

Need to study the save some more. It seems we need more troops in the north. How to get them there? :crazyeye:
Cactus Breeze could get some, or all, of the three units aboard to Damascus in 4 turns (3, chaining with MP’sFL).
Chaining with MP seems like a good idea, while the survivors of Medina heal.

We need to get Persepolis taken and razed.

Can’t be absolutely certain that the galley underneath the trireme near Bagdad is empty -- though it has been sitting there for a long time – and I am therefore a bit reluctant to move the Xbow toward Kufah. The team can decide how likely it is to be needed and if that’s worth the little risk.
This is the Galley that brought troops up during rrau's turn set, iirc. I went back and checked the saves from turns 203, 205, and 209 and they have been there all along. I believe that the Galley is empty.

EDIT - Can we get the Medina Workers up to Mecca and chop in time? They can be chopping in two turns with two workers per forest. :mischief:

Bring us home JT! :hammer:

The Baghdad Xbow should be free to help with Kufah. There's always some chance that a unit could come up the road from the south and retake it. We could keep one galleonload in reserve half-way between Baghdad and Nidaros, so that it could amphibious assault Baghdad to retake the city or assault Nidaros if mop up duty is required there.

Otherwise, I think it's feasible to take Kufah, Susa, and Damascus in 5 turns even without reinforcements from Cactus Breeze.

1) Kufah can be hit with 2 cats (1 being built in Mecca), 1 CR3 sword, and 2 Xbows. After the cats bombard Kufah to 0%, they suicide, reducing the archers to 1.8 and 1.5 strength on average. Assuming a conservative estimate that the archers have strength 2.1 and 1.8, the sword attacks the 2.1-strength 3-promo archer with an 88% chance of winning. Then an Xbow attacks the 1.5-strength 2-promo with a 79% chance of winning. Then we have another Xbow to follow up. The chance that both sword and first Xbow lose is 6%.

2) Damascus can be hit by two fully healed WEs, 1 cat, and 3 CR3 swords of varying health. Suiciding cat is 17% to win and will reduce the lead archer to 1.7 strength on average. WEs are 94%+ to win against the 2 archers collaterally damaged by cat. CR3 sword is 99% to win against a 1.7 strength archer. Even against a conservative estimate of a 2.5-strength archer (rather than 1.7), the CR3 sword is 96% to win. Weakened swords are 99%+ to win against chariots. We'd have to get some bad luck to not take Damascus on the first turn of attack, and taking it after one more turn of attack would be assured unless it builds several more archers.

3) Susa can be taken by the Xbow, cat, and axe approaching from Baghdad, and the WE, axe, and 2 cats from Parsargadae. Survivors of Persepolis can follow behind as insurance. I haven't worked out the percentages here but with three cats suiciding against Susa and with Susa not being on a hill, I think we should be in good shape here.

With 6 units available to take Gordium, and more units than I can count ready to take Nidaros and Upsalla, I think we have everything well in hand.

BTW-Parsargadae is starving. Whip an archer there now (or a sword after Pers is taken) and then shuffle the queue so that the cat comes out first.

BTW-Parsargadae is starving. Whip an archer there now (or a sword after Pers is taken) and then shuffle the queue so that the cat comes out first.

No iron, so must whip archer.

Idea:
We have a 45 hammer overflow in London, if we switch to a settler build it for one more turn we can complete it for 2 pop. This would allow us to build a city on the eastern end of the Pers. Lake allowing us to sail our survivors from the Viking attack to the Susa Road in 3 turns vrs the over 8 turn land route. Also new units could sail directly to this area.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5196/xteamsgv06033ym6.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsgv06033ym6.jpg)

No iron, so must whip archer.

Right. Somehow I was thinking that we could knock out Persepolis this turn, but it's actually next turn.

Idea:
We have a 45 hammer overflow in London, if we switch to a settler build it for one more turn we can complete it for 2 pop. This would allow us to build a city on the eastern end of the Pers. Lake allowing us to sail our survivors from the Viking attack to the Susa Road in 3 turns vrs the over 8 turn land route. Also new units could sail directly to this area.

Susa isn't that strong. If we can't take it with the 7 units I mentioned in my previous post, survivors from Persepolis/Damascus/Kufah/Gordium should be plenty.

When should we cease production of units? :hmm:

Perhaps we should grow some population in farther away cities and focus that population on commerce? If the units can't reach a war theater in time to be useful, why pay maintenance on them?

Are we considering a change to Police State, and/or Caste System? What timing should we use for that? Once the cities on the enemy continent are tapped out and useless for pop-rushing or forest chopping?

When should we cease production of units? :hmm:

Perhaps we should grow some population in farther away cities and focus that population on commerce? If the units can't reach a war theater in time to be useful, why pay maintenance on them?

Are we considering a change to Police State, and/or Caste System? What timing should we use for that? Once the cities on the enemy continent are tapped out and useless for pop-rushing or forest chopping?

After Mecca and Parsargadae produce their cats next turn, we should have all the units we need for killing the AI. Those two cities can finish off with archers to protect them from a bold AI unit.

I don't think we'll need to change civics to avoid bankruptcy. Capturing Persepolis next turn and Nidaros and Upsalla soon after should bring in all the cash we need to stay afloat.

CP already has us MMed for commerce so all JT needs to do is worry about the war.

Capturing Persepolis next turn and Nidaros and Upsalla soon after should bring in all the cash we need to stay afloat.

We don't want to keep them though, correct? Only city we want is Susa with the HG, it will never come out of revolt but will still have increased cost associated with it.

Team OSS posted another save thru T206 590AD - their score and power graph reflect sharp increases. They are taking cities again and increasing pop.

This is going to be close.

"while the survivors of Medina heal" Agree with SCT that we should plan to win in no more than 5 turns, so wounded Medina sword does not have time to heal if he is going to be of any use.

"Can we get the Medina Workers up to Mecca and chop in time? They can be chopping in two turns with two workers per forest." Again, won't help us to a 5-turn victory. Three of them could be put to use building a road on the plain 2east of Persepolis to shorten the travel time to Gordium and then on the next turn to build a road on the plain 3east should a Persian unit move to the grass tile SE of Parsagadae. The fourth worker could be employed to entice a Gordium unit out of city, even if the enticee returns to the city the same turn thereby losing its fortification bonus.

We don't want to keep them though, correct? They're of no use. Only city we want is Susa with the HG, it will never come out of revolt but will still have increased cost associated with it. Irrelevant -- game will be over!

Agree with SCT that we should plan to win in no more than 5 turns.

This sounds great. :goodjob:

The Baghdad Xbow should be free to help with Kufah. Hope it won't need to, but if another archer is built in Kufah, it could bail us out.There's always some chance that a unit could come up the road from the south and retake it. We could keep one galleonload in reserve half-way between Baghdad and Nidaros, so that it could amphibious assault Baghdad to retake the city or assault Nidaros if mop up duty is required there. Unlikely to be needed, but absolutely no reason not to take this precautionary action once Nidaros falls. Shannon's Raiders can pick up a medic-promoted WE and 2 cats and sail there through Haithabu next turn (perhaps exchanging a cat for a WE as it passes Nidaros) and reach landfall at Bagdad in 4 turns.

Otherwise, I think it's feasible to take Kufah, Susa, and Damascus in 5 turns even without reinforcements from Cactus Breeze. My greatest concern is that another archer gets built in Kufah. For that reason, let's consider an alternative scenario to the one SCT posted earlier that attacks Kufah in just three turns with bombardment of culture down to only 14%, using the sword in Mecca at Kufah and compensating in Damascus with troops transported by Cactus Breeze. SCT, would you compute the odds of our two 3CR swords winning at Kufah after a cat attack in three turns? We would also have an axe and a Xbow available to attack that same turn if necessary, and another Xbow available the following turn. Probably will want to move the cat in Mecca to Kufah to attack as well in order to maximize probability that axe and Xbow can both help in Susa. (May want to wait for the IBT to decide.) Moving the sword to Kufah would also be a kind of insurance should another archer get built there in the next three turns. In that case, would we be in good shape if we did reduce culture to 0% while waiting that extra turn for the Bagdad Xbow to arrive?


3) Susa can be taken by the Xbow, cat, and axe approaching from Baghdad, and the WE, axe, and 2 cats from Parsargadae. Survivors of Persepolis can follow behind as insurance. You mean if we can't take Susa in 5 turns? I'm thinking they're help would be more timely in Gordium. I haven't worked out the percentages here but with three cats suiciding against Susa and with Susa not being on a hill, I think we should be in good shape here. The Medina sword can reach Susa in 4 turns (Damascus in 5 -- too late), giving us a little insurance, and I'm thinking the best use of the last cat out of Mecca is in Susa, in case the axe and Xbow by Kufah are indeed needed there.

With 6 units available to take Gordium Really think we need to send Cactus Breeze to Damascus (with at least two units still on board, if not all three) and ad lib in Gordium -- three units off of Fred's Ferry and what we can put together after Persepolis falls. Decent chance we'll be able to attack one Gordium axe with the chariot now on the copper. We can wait to see if the Gordium axe and cat advance away from the city in the IBT and until Pers is attacked at the beginning of next turn and we can see what the post-combat report is before deciding.

more units than I can count ready to take Nidaros and Upsalla, I think we have everything well in hand. Yes

BTW-Parsargadae is starving. Whip an archer there now (or a sword after Pers is taken) and then shuffle the queue so that the cat comes out first. Why not another cat?

"After Mecca and Parsargadae produce their cats next turn, we should have all the units we need for killing the AI. Those two cities can finish off with archers to protect them from a bold AI unit." Don't agree that we are sure to have all the units we need. Can't both cities produce one more unit (cat?) in time to be useful?

Additional thoughts:

The Medina WE may be frustrated in Susa by spear, so let him trek to Damascus where his full benefit is certain.

Put WE, wounded (but can promote) sword, and cat in Galleon on flood plain west of Damascus next turn, unless chariots move and we have to adjust to that.

I failed to pillage sea resources around Viking cities, increasing probability that they will research Feudalism and whip units. JT, please correct my mistake next turn.

BTW, wounded WE on forest SE of Nidaros is intended as tempting target for Viking spear.

Is the sword N of Kufah fortified? I'd wake it up so it doesn't get forgotten about.

[edit] There seems to be multiple fortified units. Maybe not the best thing to do in a SG when the next person playing may not know about them.

Is the sword N of Kufah fortified? I'd wake it up so it doesn't get forgotten about. Not sure, but nothing I can do about it now.

[edit] There seems to be multiple fortified units. Maybe not the best thing to do in a SG when the next person playing may not know about them.

Point well taken -- shouldn't fortify unless there is a real need. JT is alerted that I may have fortified some units as a convenience to myself.

Can we position any of the captured workers as blockers just incase the AI/barbs puts any units on the roads? Most of the workers appreared to be in the south so this may not be useful.

Finally got a chance to look at the save. Looks like we are almost done :goodjob:.

I notice a couple of things.

The WE and 2 cats north of Ecbatana can enter Shannons Raider next turn and be available for an amphibious assault on Gordium 5 turns from now in case we need this extra backup.

Assuming that we can take Persepolis next turn we we will have access to horses in Parsagadea. This means that we have time to build a chariot there that can attack Susa 5 turns from now. If we whip yet another chariot it could attack Gordium in turn 5. Whipping an archer now won't stop starvation so I suggest we don't do it and save the pop for whipping chariots.

MP's Floating Lab have time to load WE and sword near Medina ruins, bring them to Damascus and return to chain units from Cactus Breeze to Damascus.

By doing this we should have the following units available to attack in no more than 5 turns:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (amphibious from SR), 1-2 chariots, cat (constructed in Parsagadea next turn) and survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 2 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes, chariot

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 2 cats

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cat

It's possible to do some trade-offs between Susa, Damascus and Kufah since some units have the option of reaching several cities in time. I have assumed that Mecca builds another cat next turn. No need to discuss the Viking cities since we have plenty of units there.

"After Mecca and Parsargadae produce their cats next turn, we should have all the units we need for killing the AI. Those two cities can finish off with archers to protect them from a bold AI unit." Don't agree that we are sure to have all the units we need. Can't both cities produce one more unit (cat?) in time to be useful?


Mecca should be able to produce one more cat that can reach Kufah in time and Parsargadea can produce one (or is it two?) chariots that can be used against Susa and Gordium (If two).

Unlikely to be needed, but absolutely no reason not to take this precautionary action once Nidaros falls. Shannon's Raiders can pick up a medic-promoted WE and 2 cats and sail there through Haithabu next turn (perhaps exchanging a cat for a WE as it passes Nidaros) and reach landfall at Bagdad in 4 turns.

I would rather reserve Shannons Raider for transport of some backup units to Gordium. We have a nameless galleon NE of Nidaros that can move towards Baghdad for insurance.

The Medina sword can reach Susa in 4 turns (Damascus in 5 -- too late), giving us a little insurance, and I'm thinking the best use of the last cat out of Mecca is in Susa, in case the axe and Xbow by Kufah are indeed needed there.

My suggestion would be to move him to Damascus in MP's FL. That will also give him more turns to heal.

The X-team is built for speed -- fastest winners in three categories in GOTM27.

The X-team is built for speed -- fastest winners in three categories in GOTM27.
Congratulations gentlemen!! :goodjob: :hatsoff: :cheers:

The WE and 2 cats north of Ecbatana can enter Shannons Raider next turn and be available for an amphibious assault on Gordium 5 turns from now in case we need this extra backup. Yes, that's a better option. As you suggest, another galleon can sail precaution patrol on Bagdad.

Assuming that we can take Persepolis next turn we we will have access to horses in Parsagadea. This means that we have time to build a chariot there that can attack Susa 5 turns from now. If we whip yet another chariot it could attack Gordium in turn 5. Real good idea.Whipping an archer now won't stop starvation so I suggest we don't do it and save the pop for whipping chariots. Please clarify . . . We've just whipped a cat. Don't understand talk of an archer.

MP's Floating Lab have time to load WE and sword near Medina ruins, bring them to Damascus and return to chain units from Cactus Breeze to Damascus. I don't think that works, Fred. You can't get to Damascus and then far enough south to be waiting a turn for CB in 2 turns. If you don't rendezvous in two turns with the second turn and one more to sail back to Damascus, you don't save a turn (but that is probably not critical).

BTW, I was wrong that the Medina sword can't get to Damascus in four turns. It can, if three of the workers under the Medina WE move to the forest 2SW of Damascus and build a road. Not sure we want to send him there rather than Susa, but it is an option, and we can send the workers and move the sword two turns NW before having to decide.

By doing this we should have the following units available to attack in no more than 5 turns:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (amphibious from SR), 1-2 chariots, cat (constructed in Parsagadea next turn I think we're going to want to send that cat to Susa, but we can wait until early next turn to see what happens with PERS and the units just out of Gordium before deciding.) and survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 2 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes, chariot You're assuming Xbow and axe are not needed at Kufah. If we can devise a plan that allows for that contingency, it would be desirable. In any event, I'd like to maintain the option of sending at least one more unit here

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 2 cats This may be overkill -- especially question if we can afford the second cat there, since it could get to both Kufah and Susa in time to be effective.

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cat If another archer shows up, we might need the axe and/or another cat here as well.

It's possible to do some trade-offs between Susa, Damascus and Kufah since some units have the option of reaching several cities in time. Yes, I'm beginning to think that we might want to pause after the IBT and Persepolis attack to make initial troop committments.I have assumed that Mecca builds another cat next turn. That's certainly my assumption as well.No need to discuss the Viking cities since we have plenty of units there. If Ragnar get Feudalism, it might prove interesting.

Mecca should be able to produce one more cat that can reach Kufah in time and Parsargadea can produce one (or is it two?) chariots that can be used against Susa and Gordium (If two). If we get Persepolis next turn and then whip it.

My suggestion would be to move him (Medina sword) to Damascus in MP's FL. That will also give him more turns to heal. Yes, if we load the medic-WE in the galleon with him and wait until turn 4 to unload. If both are taken to Damascus, then we need to be sure we'll have enough units in Susa, and I'm not sure we can be sure, though your chariot idea helps.

I'm alive and well but won't get a chance to play quite yet. Expect me to post a plan before the end of my weekend.

I'm alive and well but won't get a chance to play quite yet. Expect me to post a plan before the end of my weekend.
No problem here. :coffee: It would take me at least that long to figure it all out! :eek:

Good luck with it JT. :beer:

The X-team is built for speed -- fastest winners in three categories in GOTM27.


Well done. :goodjob: :king:

I haven't played a GOTM since CivIII days. Need to improve my opening sequence before I return to that arena. Start of the game is so important. But playing in SG's like this is the best way to do just that.

I haven't played a GOTM since CivIII days. Need to improve my opening sequence before I return to that arena. Start of the game is so important. But playing in SG's like this is the best way to do just that.
I saw your name up in lights on the front page recently. :scan:

Something about a fantastic HoF finish... :goodjob:

Well done in the GOTM and with the HOF :goodjob:. 3 fast finishers from XTeam - that's impressive. Now, if we could only get that silver laurel....

Please clarify . . . We've just whipped a cat. Don't understand talk of an archer.

There was a suggestion of whipping an archer [in Parsagadea] but I think the chariot will be more helpful. I'm not sure if we can actually whip 2 chariots in succession - maybe SCT can answer that?

I don't think that works, Fred. You can't get to Damascus and then far enough south to be waiting a turn for CB in 2 turns. If you don't rendezvous in two turns with the second turn and one more to sail back to Damascus, you don't save a turn (but that is probably not critical).

I think it's possible unless there is a mistake in this time line:

T212: Load MP's FL with sword and WE and move to Damascus.
T213: Unload units at Damascus and move back south to plains forest.
T214: Move Cactus Breeze to same tile as MP's FL and transfer units. Sail MP's FL to Damascus and unload units.

Actually I think I did make a mistake when I looked at the save yesterday. My plan was designed for winning in T215 after only 4 turns (not counting the present turn) and not in T216. You have to be really careful when you do this counting. Maybe we should go for winning in 4 turns?

I think we're going to want to send that cat to Susa, but we can wait until early next turn to see what happens with PERS and the units just out of Gordium before deciding. It is part of my "mistake" that I calculated that this cat didn't have time to reach Susa because I was aiming for an earlier deadline (T215) than I thought.

I'm wondering if we could make a late decision about some of the unit deployments. If we move sword and cat out of Mecca next turn (T212) they will could be on the grassland hill SW of Kufah in T213 and ready to attack in T214. In addition to these two units we would have the cat, sword and xbow that are already there and we would have two extra turns of bombing meaning that the cultural defense would be down to 8%. The sword and xbow could also be moved to the grassland hill SW for maximum flexibility if it turns out that one unit can be spared as backup in Susa.

This may be overkill -- especially question if we can afford the second cat there, since it could get to both Kufah and Susa in time to be effective.

We could move the 2nd cat built in Mecca to Susa then. It would arrive in time to attack in turn 216 and if we plan to win in T216 the Parsagadea cat I assigned to Gordium could be used against Susa instead. I agree that we may have to few units near Susa considering that there will be little time for bombing.

Maybe SCT can provide some combat odds showing where the critical battles are and if we should reassign units or rather go for a 5 turn victory compared to 4 turns.

Does anyone know what has prompted the Persians to send out the archer from Susa and the axe+cat from Gordium? Is it the siege at Persepolis or the undefended Parsagadea that is attracting these units. It would sure be great if the archer doesn't return to Susa. Will keeping Persepolis attract counterattacking forces?

Do we know how to proceed with the attack on Persepolis and how are the odds? We probably need to factor in that our WE north of Persepolis will be hit by the barb axe IBT.

Now, if we could only get that silver laurel....
Looks like Murky's latest save has them pop-rushing hard like we just did, only they are over 20 turns ahead of us. :sad:

Looks like Murky's latest save has them pop-rushing hard like we just did, only they are over 20 turns ahead of us. :sad:

Yes, I'm 99% certain that they will claim the gold and it's almost impossible to judge from the progress chart if OSS and Smurkz are ahead or behind. Gypsy Kings are still a dark horse but I expect that we have them beaten since they show now sign of having starting the final military expansion and pop-rushing phase.

"Does anyone know what has prompted the Persians to send out the archer from Susa and the axe+cat from Gordium? Is it the siege at Persepolis or the undefended Parsagadea that is attracting these units."

The Susa archer was probably not sent out from the city but, rather, traveled there from Pasargadae area (pretty sure he is same archer that we considered attacking with the WE during our discussion of abandoning Pasargadae). When the Gordium units moved during the IBT, PARS was still defended. I suspect that they were either interested in re-taking the city or capturing our worker. Hope it was the latter. If so, and they continue in that direction, then we may be able to move him further east and take those units out of play.

Actually I think I did make a mistake when I looked at the save yesterday. My plan was designed for winning in T215 after only 4 turns (not counting the present turn) and not in T216. You have to be really careful when you do this counting. Maybe we should go for winning in 4 turns?


Am I working on a plan for winning in t215 or t216?

Am I working on a plan for winning in t215 or t216? t215 is theoretically possible, but I think the RNG would have to be very kind for that to happen, so t216 is probably a wiser target. By the time you are ready to post a plan, I expect you'll have come to your own conclusion. Be delighted if you can make a strong case for t215 but don't expect to be reading it.

t215 is theoretically possible, but I think the RNG would have to be very kind for that to happen, so t216 is probably a wiser target. By the time you are ready to post a plan, I expect you'll have come to your own conclusion. Be delighted if you can make a strong case for t215 but don't expect to be reading it.
I agree, the faster the better. However, we do need to be realistic. :beer:

Winning on turn 216 would be better than turn 220... :mischief:

Good luck. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately didn't get enough time to look at it today. It will have to wait till tomorrow.

We are not really pressed for time since the deadline is 2 months from now.

I discovered a mistake in my whip schedule for Parsagadea. I forgot about the whip penalty for not having invested hammers. It means that we must use one turn for building the chariots before they can be whipped since the overflow of the current build is only 1 hammer. This also means that the chariot built in Parsagadea can't assist in a Susa attack at T215 it will be available for attack at T216. The second chariot can be whipped immediately after the first due to the overflow compensating some of the penalty and it will be available for attack at Gordium in T216.

To sum up, waiting for T216 with the attack means that we have an additional cat and chariot available for attacking Susa, the WE and 2 cats from Shannons Raider will have time to land before they attack Gordium and finally we will have time for additional bombing of Susa and Damascus.

Here's an updated list of what we could have available for attack:

T216:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (SR), 2 chariots, and survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 3 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes, chariot

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats

T215:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (Amphibious from SR), 2 chariots, and (some) survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 2 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats

How about using the 4 workers on the Medina ruins + the worker north of Susa to chop the forest SW of Mecca - it would be chopped by T213 and the next forest SE in T214. Too late if things go according to plan but I think we need to plan so that failing to take a city (e.g. if Kufah builds an extra archer) will cause a minimum number of turns in delay.

To sum up, waiting for T216 with the attack means that we have an additional cat and chariot available for attacking Susa, the WE and 2 cats from Shannons Raider will have time to land before they attack Gordium and finally we will have time for additional bombing of Susa and Damascus.

Here's an updated list of what we could have available for attack:

T216:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (SR), 2 chariots, and survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 3 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes, chariot

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats

T215:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (Amphibious from SR), 2 chariots, and (some) survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 2 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats
As CP seemed to be having some difficulty with new units popping up at bad times, perhaps, where we can, we should attack on turn 215. It seems that Kufah and Gordium may be candidates for early attacks? :hammer:

As CP seemed to be having some difficulty with new units popping up at bad times, perhaps, where we can, we should attack on turn 215. It seems that Kufah and Gordium may be candidates for early attacks? :hammer:

And Damascus as well.

And Damascus as well.
:thumbsup:
Wherever we can attack with favorable odds, the earlier the better. :cheers:

I noticed that Smurkz are gaining power fast without any sign of heavy whipping. Maybe they are building maces? This could be a very close finish indeed.

I noticed that Smurkz are gaining power fast without any sign of heavy whipping. Maybe they are building maces? This could be a very close finish indeed.
The lines are very close indeed. :eek: I wish we could go and read and see what they are doing, where their units are. It must be :cool: to be able to read all the threads and try to figure out who will finish where... :mischief:

"It means that we must use one turn for building the chariots before they can be whipped since the overflow of the current build is only 1 hammer."

Don't follow this. Why isn't one hammer enough? Whip is for 45, chariot costs 37.

"It means that we must use one turn for building the chariots before they can be whipped since the overflow of the current build is only 1 hammer."

Don't follow this. Why isn't one hammer enough? Whip is for 45, chariot costs 37.

If you whip without having done at least one turn of normal building you only get 30 hammers for one pop. So the first chariot need one turn of building and then we whip for 45 hammers leaving enough overflow (>8 hammers) to whip the next chariot immediately for 30 hammers + overflow.

If you whip without having done at least one turn of normal building you only get 30 hammers for one pop. So the first chariot need one turn of building and then we whip for 45 hammers leaving enough overflow (>8 hammers) to whip the next chariot immediately for 30 hammers + overflow.


So the overflow doesn't count as part of the normal build? Didn't know that.

Spent ages looking at the save and I will follow this quoted plan below. I can see where the units come from so won't bother writing it all out in full.

Planning to finish in 4 turns, t215, but will have the backup units on their way.



Here's an updated list of what we could have available for attack:

T216:

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (SR), 2 chariots, and survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 3 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes, chariot

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats

T215: <-----

Gordium: xbow, sword, cat (FF) 2 cats, WE (Amphibious from SR), 2 chariots, and (some) survivors from Persepolis.

Susa: 2 cats, xbow, WE, 2 axes (we could have 1 extra xbow if we divert it from kufah)

Damascus: 4 WE's, 3 swords (2 are somewhat wounded), 1 cat (2WE's and a sword will be amphibious attack?)

Kufah: 2 xbows, 2 swords, 2 cats (1xbow could be used at Susa, we have 2 IBT's to decide).

If my whip technique at the bottom of this ppost works we can have an extra xbow for use at either Damascus or Kufah in time for t215.



Will attack Persepolis next turn. Will pause for discussion if it seems the survivors won't be enough to handle Gordium. Do we raze Persep or leave it empty hoping to draw cats out of Susa?

Will attack Nidaros and Uppsalla in two turns time. Position troops around viking cities, pillage fishing boats and move a contingency galleon toward each of Baghdad and Gordium.

4 workers near Medina ruins and worker north of Susa will chop SW forest at Mecca, this should be able to go into a chariot since the river and road will connect it to Ectabana once Persep is gone. The five of them should be able to do a chop on turn 213 and 214.

Question on whipping: Can we whip 2 pop at Pasagardae, into an explorer for example, and then cancel the build, switch back to the catapult and we get 60 hammer overflow that could be used to build a chariot next turn? This way we get some hammers for our pop that would have starved.

Could also whip an archer this turn in Mecca and build the already whipped cat on the following turn. This delays cat one turn (but can still reach either damascus or kufah within the 4-turn time frame) and get an archer that could be upgraded to xbow for use in the same 4 turn timeframe.

Will the two above techniques of double whipping work? (ie does the 2nd whipped popn stay as an overflow or is it lost?)

:ar15:

Planning to finish in 4 turns, t215, but will have the backup units on their way.

Minor note on units listed: there is an axe by Kufah that could be used there too if necessary.

Will attack Persepolis next turn. Will pause for discussion if it seems the survivors won't be enough to handle Gordium. Do we raze Persep or leave it empty hoping to draw cats out of Susa? We'll have units on the road north to Susa. I'd think that would discourage venturesome cats.

Will attack Nidaros and Uppsalla in two turns time. Position troops around viking cities, pillage fishing boats and move a contingency galleon toward each of Baghdad and Gordium. Okay.

4 workers near Medina ruins and worker north of Susa will chop SW forest at Mecca, this should be able to go into a chariot since the river and road will connect it to Ectabana once Persep is gone. The five of them should be able to do a chop on turn 213 and 214. That's part of your back up plan for turn 216?

Question on whipping: Can we whip 2 pop at Pasagardae, into an explorer for example, and then cancel the build, switch back to the catapult and we get 60 hammer overflow that could be used to build a chariot next turn? This way we get some hammers for our pop that would have starved. Interesting . . . I don't know, but I'll bet someone on the team does or knows how to find out.

Could also whip an archer this turn in Mecca and build the already whipped cat on the following turn. This delays cat one turn (but can still reach either damascus or kufah within the 4-turn time frame) and get an archer that could be upgraded to xbow for use in the same 4 turn timeframe. Would we be better off taking this approach if another archer is built in Kufah?

Will the two above techniques of double whipping work? (ie does the 2nd whipped popn stay as an overflow or is it lost?) See above.:ar15:

JT, there is another quite important matter that needs to be brought up: This is crunch time, and the usual sacrifices to the RNG gods, while certainly worthwhile, perhaps even necessary, are not sufficient at such a fateful moment. What the team and circumstances require is that you not only appease the gods but also intimidate the AI. To assure a quick victory, you are obligated by X-team tradition -- however nascent -- to vigorously (Is there any other way?) perform a Haka, complete with a Maori war chant so exhuberant and ferocious that Cyrus, Saladin, an