[TAB]The winter court is more like their summer brothers than they would like to admit. Like the Ljosalfar they can build improvements on forest tiles, and that grants then the synergies with the Fellowship of Leaves should they opt to return to their former religion. They also gain the same double movement in forest tiles, which is more dangerous in the Svartalfars hands.

[TAB]As for differences let’s start with Faeryl, she is an Arcane/Raider leader that starts with Shadow, Nature and Mind mana. They have a unique hunting lodge that boosts the strength of all of their recon units. Along with their increased movement in forests this makes them the games most effective civ for capturing animals. Hunter rush has never been more effective, and their assassins can pick apart stacks of enemies.

[TAB]Veil of Night allows them to make all of their combat units Hidden Nationality, as you can imagine this doesn’t make the Svartalfar good neighbors. Add in Faeryl’s preference for the Council of Esus and its ability to not have the units bounced out of your borders when they declare war and you have a civ made for betrayal.

[TAB]They are one of the only civs to start with Shadow mana (along with the Calabim) which grants access to the following spells:

Blur (rank 1, sorcery)- protects units in the casters stack from first strikes (sadly for the Ljosalfar archers)
Hide (rank 2, sorcery)- Makes the caster invisible until they attack or cast a spell
Shadowwalk (rank 3, sorcery)- grants units in the casters stack the ability to ignore terrain and building defense

Summon Mistform (rank 2, summoning)- hidden nationality summon
Summon Phantasm (rank 3, summoning)- invisible summon with fear

[TAB]But my favorite aspect of the Svartalfar is their hero, Alazkan the Assassin. He is a powerful elven assassin with the mirror ability. Mirror allows Alazkan to create an illusionary version of himself, it is identical in every way. Any promotions Alazkan has earned are shared by his duplicate. Every assassin needs a powerful summon to send in to warm up enemy stacks or scout into dangerous areas.

[TAB]The weakness of the Svartalfar is they have a hard time operating as a builder. To be successful they need to get out and start causing chaos, maximizing the use of their raider trait and keeping their neighbors down. This is largely because of their second weakness, poor defense. Where the Ljosalfar have archer bonuses and the amazing March of the Trees world spell the Svartalfar have few tricks for defending their lands. I expect them to be extremely powerful in the right hands, and a favorite of players that like sniping at and betraying their enemies, but some players may have to adapt their play style to keep from being crushed as them.

Interesting design and emphasis very "to the depths". Nothing on if Shadow mana has an impact on divine spells?

Interesting design and emphasis very "to the depths". Nothing on if Shadow mana has an impact on divine spells?

There is no such thing as disciples or priests of Esus, so there are no divine shadow spells. Instead it is the only religion that grants spells to units that follow it instead of just the priest types. For example all recon units that worship Esus gain access to the Mask spell, which gives them hidden nationality.

Does the Mirror Alazkan count as a summon (1 turn limit), and if not, can it gain experience? Does that experience also go to the real Alazkan?

On another line of possibilities: Can even the Svalt player tell the difference between the "Real" and "Mirror" hero? If the "real" one dies, can the "Mirror" summon up a Mirror of itself and keep on going, or does loss of the wrong one actually mean you lose the Hero?

Looks good. Is there any particular reason why the Svartalfar would be any worse on the defense than the average civ? I understand them not being great at it, but is there some real disadvantage?


The Traits seem quite fitting to me. They are what I had already added (before I got greedy and decided to give every civ at least 3 traits. Basium has 7 and Hyborem 8). It makes me kinda wish that Sureshot's unit had won the design contest though (although I didn't vote for it), just so I could have Arcane Assassins.

No mention of Unique units? I believe you had already said they would have Elven Flurries instead of crossbowmen. (hmm, I guess that could make their defenses a little weaker)

The Hero looks very nice, but his name seems, I don't know, somehow to made up. His ability seems awesome. May we however assume that there is at least 1 difference between him and his summoned double: that the double can't summon a double? If he could, this would be very unbalanced (and quite possibly lead to infinite loops when the AI is using it.)

The summons look very nice, but the sorcery spells seem like they might be slightly weak. It would be nice if blur limited the line of sight of nearby units (but that might make it too string, unless the positions of Blur and Hide were switched). Hide would be much better if you could hide other units (but a whole stack seems like too much, and you probably don't want to re-implement the targeting mechanism since the AI can't understand it.) I would like it if shadow walk would also let you move through tiles occupied by the enemy, but allowing both that and still having the ability to attack could be tricky. (It would be nice if moving to a tile and attacking a tile used different commands, but I'm not sure you could implement that.)

I'm guessing that Shadow mana won't have any divine spells; since it doesn't have any disciple units, there will probably never be a unit that has the divine promotion and and of the shadow sphere promotions (without cheating).

I could have sworn you'd said that the Sidar would have Shadow mana, back when you were justifying the removal of the Hidden trait. It would probably make sense for them too, but I couldn't decide which one of their current mana types should be removed to make roon for it; they all seemed to fit so well, better than most civs' (probably because several palace manas were just placeholders for types not added yet). I assume that Shadow mana will replace earth for the Calabim, since that never made sense for them and body/law seem essential. I had thought mind mana should replace earth for them; thematically it fits very well, but the actual spells don't fit so well as the shadow spells, and the shadow sphere fits them thematically even better (plus, their Hero is always talking about shadows). Good choice.


Last but not least: what about the passive effects of Shadow mana? I recall reading one (when you were justifying the removal of the Hidden trait) that it would make rival maps of your lands "decay" and/or spread more fog of war. Is that the case?


p.s. I think you meant "design", not "desing".

You cannot let Hide move into the Rank 1 spell slot, or Conjurers could be invisible on your borders, swarming you with HN summoned units.

Hadn't thought about it at first, but I now LOVE shadow mana. Can't wait to play with the Summoner Trait all over again :) I'll conquer the world without declaring war any longer than the 2 or 3 turns it takes to swipe the undefended cities!

Oh, and if the Hero's Mirror image cannot be told apart from the "real" hero, I imagine that there is a check to not allow you to cast Mirror unless that is the only copy remaining alive.

It could only take 1 turn: if you follow Esus and can get open borders, then you can take out the defenders with HN units with you real army 1 tile away from each city. If you time it right, the war won't even last 1 turn.

so there's no way to hide cities?

Hidden cities should only be possible for races building underground. Finding the entrance to those cities would prove harder, but once found te secret is in the open.

There is no such thing as disciples or priests of Esus, so there are no divine shadow spells. Instead it is the only religion that grants spells to units that follow it instead of just the priest types. For example all recon units that worship Esus gain access to the Mask spell, which gives them hidden nationality.

I'm surprised you never mentioned the Mask spell in the Council of Esus Article. You did mention the Steal ability. What other kinds of abilities will Esus offer, and to what other kinds of units?

I think I'm going to like Shadow.

The Hero looks very nice, but his name seems, I don't know, somehow to made up.
I suppose you've noticed the design team's penchant for naming heroes after themselves? :D

Impressive! But main trick - open borders-betrayal-mirror will work ony with AI as no one human will ever open borders with them. :) Good logic is to make AI also no open borders with swartalfar and no-kicking-out ability will become useless. :( Unless those units will be able also to explore rival territory.

. .
Shadowwalk (rank 3, sorcery)- grants units in the casters stack the ability to ignore terrain and building defense


And what about culture defense bonus, wall of stone spell, city and terrain defense promotions and natural tile defense abilities?

I suppose you've noticed the design team's penchant for naming heroes after themselves? :D

So there will be a white rabbit?:lol:

So there will be a white rabbit?:lol:
Perhaps Sidar hero name will be Tibbar Etihw.

is blur a permanent spell or a 1turn buffer ?

isn't it possible to make it reduce X 1st strikes instead of negating it ?? (it is in itself a negation of a whole promo line, it seems powerful for a lvl1 spell)

won't the combinaison of shadow mana, esus and betrayal ability, combined with summoning chaos marauders (to take the city for the barbs so you can steal them back) make the svartalfar player a bit overpowered on any AI ??? because moving hidden 'hidden nationality' units combine the no attack on you units plus the can attack friend into a powerful combo

or moving hidden units near friendly cities before betraying... evil

whereas agains a real player, there will be no open border agreements, and many hawks in the sky is svart are a neighbour, thus damaging the growth of the svart player.

I guess this is more of an Esus question than Svartalfar, but since it was mentioned here.....so with no disciples or priest, does this mean that they don't have any units with the medic promotion unless they pick another religion?

Impressive! But main trick - open borders-betrayal-mirror will work ony with AI as no one human will ever open borders with them. :) Good logic is to make AI also no open borders with swartalfar and no-kicking-out ability will become useless. :( Unless those units will be able also to explore rival territory.



And what about culture defense bonus, wall of stone spell, city and terrain defense promotions and natural tile defense abilities?

The open borders trick is not svartalfar specific, it is for everyone following the council of Esus--which is conviently hidden from enemies. It won't work more than once, probably, but just being svartalfar isn't reason to keep someone out.
Also, even if they never sign open borders... Veil of Night and you don't need it.

yes but against a human player, veil of night is a declaration of war....
those elve looking barb ranger can't come form an esus dwarf...

maybe it is more a esus issue, but
esus + shadow mana goes for AI annihilation without breaking a sweat

the synergy of svart+esus will always tell the player to never open borders to svart, in case they are esus. (for others it is maybe easier to betray)

(oh : how does esus work : the apartenance to esus is hidden so what appears instead??? no state religion ? 2nd religion present in the civ? )

What exactly makes the Illusionist different from ordinary conjurers? I know their summons get the illusion promotion but what does that actually do?

When the Illusion promotion was first added it was stated that in Shadow Illusions would only effect living units; they can walk right through stacks of golems, catapults, demon, and the undead, but aren't able to hurt these units.

And what about culture defense bonus, wall of stone spell, city and terrain defense promotions and natural tile defense abilities?

Wall of Stone is a building Defense. Terrain and "natural tile" defense are terrain defences. And I have never been too clear on what "Cultural defense bonus" is, but I would assume that it counts as building defense.

Might also make sense for them (Illusionists) to ignore defense bonuses when attacking then.

I look forward to playing them. The team manages to keep the civs unique.

Who is the woman in the screenshot? How did they fare in playtesting following FoL?

Sorry to say but the illusionist doesn't look like...an illusionist :/ It looks like an illusion, not as an arcane unit that has the power to command one.

Just my aesthetic feeling.

The Hero looks very nice, but his name seems, I don't know, somehow to made up.

I was hoping the Svartalfar hero would be named Eclavdra. ;) (No, not really.)

Wall of Stone is a building Defense. Terrain and "natural tile" defense are terrain defences. And I have never been too clear on what "Cultural defense bonus" is, but I would assume that it counts as building defense.
City defence bonus granted as a result of having high culture - 20% per border pop up to 100% at Legendary. The greater of it and building defence is generally used as the city's defence for combat and bombardment; the number displayed above the city bar. Culture generally dominates heavily, especially in vanilla games. It looks like that will not always be the case in Shadow. AFAIK the ability the person you quoted was enquiring about (that granted to gunpowder units generally) ignores only the building defence - if cultural defence is greater, there's no benefit.

Duh...nevermind :blush:

So can the illusions not take / damage cities or are the Luchurip kind of screwed against them?

why exactly is Alazkan the Assassin "not alive" (see screenshot)?

i also find it kind of odd for a female dominated land to have a male hero...

i also find it kind of odd for a female dominated land to have a male hero...
Maybe he's the queen lover? Guess we have to wait for the civlopedia entry.

why exactly is Alazkan the Assassin "not alive" (see screenshot)?



I believe that is actually his illusion, not him.,

I believe that is actually his illusion, not him.,

oh, yes that makes since:goodjob:

seems like it will be pretty powerful if you have 2 heroes of that strength running around (will it disappear after a few turns; can it attack; can it be summoned multiple times?)

:goodjob: Looks awesome.

The Illusionist is amzing looking! However, I don't like the hero's name. I was hoping for a woman for a woman dominated society. Other than that Shadow will be awesome!

Well, I think that the picture shows the Illusionist, Ala, and Ala's Mirror. In that case, the Mirror is very much so able to be told apart from the original (has a misty look to it), but if the stats say "Not Alive" that makes it pretty likely that he is the one we see stats on. In that case, it does not say there is a turn limit till he despawns, so he is unlimited duration.

I think the fact that he's a successful male assassin in a society dominated by women assassins says quite a bit about his skill. I wasn't too interested in the Svartalfar but this makes them sound like a lot of fun.

Perhaps Sidar hero name will be Tibbar Etihw.

I like Rathus Denmora as he is, but I'd like Tibbar Etihw to be the name of the Council of Esus Hero (it certainly sounds better and more "shadowy" than Gibbon Goetia)

I'd like Tibbar Etihw to be the name of the Council of Esus Hero (it certainly sounds better and more "shadowy" than Gibbon Goetia)

Great idea, but I'd rather name him Licnuoc fo'Suse Oreh

:lol:

I think the fact that he's a successful male assassin in a society dominated by women assassins says quite a bit about his skill. I wasn't too interested in the Svartalfar but this makes them sound like a lot of fun.

The Svartalfal are a matriachic society? When or where was this ever mentioned? Maybe I've been missing something, but the Svartalfar aren't Drow, folks.

Is alkazan undead?

Is alkazan undead?

I do not think so....

The Alazkan in the screenshot that is not alive is also shown in the info box to be on the flood plains while the real Alazkan is not.

The Svartalfal are a matriachic society? When or where was this ever mentioned? Maybe I've been missing something, but the Svartalfar aren't Drow, folks.

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

I thought the Svartalfar of norse mythology were supposed to be the more masculine of the two elves? With the Ljosalfar being the feminine?

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

I don't think most people know enough Norse mythology to make that connection - instead, they'll just think of the Drow when they see any female-led society of dark elves. ;)

Do the Svartalfar use the SureShot female art or is it new more male oriented art? I was very partial to actually having a Civ with mainly female units and one of the primary reasons I liked the Civ. It was part of their uniqueness even if it wasn't mechanical to me.

Yeah, most, but not all, of their units are female dark elves from Sureshots mod. Of course, this might have changed if the teem wanted new graphics for the release of Shadow.

Do the Svartalfar use the SureShot female art or is it new more male oriented art? I was very partial to actually having a Civ with mainly female units and one of the primary reasons I liked the Civ. It was part of their uniqueness even if it wasn't mechanical to me.

I´ve designed the swordsgirl and the female archer a long time ago and then for shadow now, i´ve designed a female warrior and scout.
Out of time reasons, their unit art will have to wait a bit. but it will come and it will be female.

ah, and we have a female tiger rider ;) called nyxkin

OOH! so can we cage their mount and use it to build The Grand Menagerie?

OOH! so can we cage their mount and use it to build The Grand Menagerie?

Logic has no place in games. :)

Logic has no place in games. :)

It should have!

I've just wiped out two civs with 1 turn wars. :mischief: Thank you Council of Esus and Alazkan.

Alkazan is incredible! Just played, I rushed to poisons and built him. Next, I sent him and an assasin to my neighbors lands. ALkazan and his mirror would destroy the mirrors, and then barbarians would take the city, then the assasin would kill the orcs. RInse, Repeat. Took out the entire 5 city civ this way.

I have no problem with the Svartalfar, but what I don’t see what the council of Esus does for them.

They are basically elves with +1 to recon rather than archers. WoF seems the obvious choice, they are going to want to research hunting as soon as possible, so WoF is just natural.

Having the AI prefer CoE just seems to be messing up the Svartalfar development for role-playing purposes. Well maybe that’s ok, but I can’t help feeling that they have somehow missed!?! Perhaps their Hero should need deception or something.

Been playing the Sandy, CoE seems much more natural for them. The Sidar seems to fit much better. Giving up all your best units is so painful!!

I have no problem with the Svartalfar, but what I don’t see what the council of Esus does for them.

They are basically elves with +1 to recon rather than archers. WoF seems the obvious choice, they are going to want to research hunting as soon as possible, so WoF is just natural.

Having the AI prefer CoE just seems to be messing up the Svartalfar development for role-playing purposes. Well maybe that’s ok, but I can’t help feeling that they have somehow missed!?! Perhaps their Hero should need deception or something.

Been playing the Sandy, CoE seems much more natural for them. The Sidar seems to fit much better. Giving up all your best units is so painful!!

I was going to make a similar comment to this. The Svartalfar have the same massive synergy with Leaves that the Ljosalfar do, and it's hard to see Esus (or any other religion) ever being a better choice for them when Leaves offers so much. Perhaps even more than for the Ljosalfar, since their already-buffed hunters can also get poisoned blade from priests and become extra-deadly.
And I would only call them defensively weak in comparison to the Ljosalfar, who are pretty much the best defenders in the game. A carpet of ancient forest is an incredible defense against any attacker, particularly if you've got uber-recon units with woodsman promos to whittle down attacking stacks to nothing. They defend pretty well too, even in cities, since there's no anti-recon promotion. I'd have to consider them one of the strongest defensive civs in the game, using Leaves.
So I'd also consider them an excellent builder civ, based on their solid defense and the incredible tile bonuses that working forests gives.
Other problem with a big Leaves synergy: making them all lovey-dovey with the Ljosalfar!

I don't know exactly how it would be done, but I feel that the civ's design intentions (as well as its uniqueness from the Ljosalfar) could be better served by cutting down its synergy with Leaves. I know you can use Leaves and then switch to Esus after you're all forested, but that really feels horribly powergamey to me.
Suggestion right off the top of my head: their cottages can only grow to hamlets on forested tiles, and the forest needs to be chopped if you want to go beyond that.

I agree with the last 2 comments. My main gripe about Svartalfar's implementation is that it didn't respect the plans and expatations. Even the title of this "expansion", "Hidden Enemies", isn't really appropriate since the spell Hide is mana based unlike the trait mechanic, and it's a mediocre spell in a strategy game, may I add. It is a superb spell in a RPG, but in a strategy game, where you can plan your losses etc, hiding a unit at the price of not attacking is far from being a power. Also, still from a strategic point of view, the Svartalfar aren't much different from the Ljosalfar... only if you will really roleplay both of them they will be different experiences. I can't hide that, being a big fan of the Dark Elven world, I'm quite disappointed, since I had been waiting for this Civ for 2 years, and when it's finally implemented it doesn't use any new mechanic (apart the new hero, but I can't say that Kael wasn't as powerful as the new one). Could have been made playable before, then.

I see no problem with the fellowship of the leaves synergy. They are still Elves after all. The whole Evil thing though still gives them a -2 diplo with the Ljosalfar. Just because they're Evil doesn't mean that they can't worship trees. I would think that the better route would be to hard code a -4 diplo hit between the Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar. This would put the Svarts at a -6 diplo hole from the beginning of the game.

I think there's an awesome synergy between worshipping the trees and then going with CoE. Heck, it's even got great RP potential and follows with the Svart's evolution into creatures of malice and shadow...but to take away their ability to build in forested tiles would make them...well un-Elven.

I like them just the way they are. There are bigger issues here. Unless you're playing against a human, the AI is like a crippled baby lamb trying to flee from a pack of hungry wolves. I have never had an AI army use the Sorcerer-Summoner-Hero combo. The only time I've ever lost was on Emperor with continents as the Calibim, and forgot to check for defensive pacts before attacking a neighbor.

Whoever said there's a problem with them worshipping FoL ? We actually said the contrary: the point that's been made is that they are essentially the same Civ as Ljosalfar, with little tweaks, yet we had to wait until now to play it ?

Esus and Empyrean are both really later game religions too.

Leaves, Runes, OO are the early religions.
Order and AV are the midgame religions.
Esus and Empyrean are the lategame religions.

Because Faeryl has no builder traits you need to focus on maintaining a stranglehold on the world more than you need to focus on utilizing your builder traits like other civs. I played a game on Deity with 19 civs and managed to dominate only by backstabbing and playing everyone against each other. And you need to decide if you want the Esus HC or the Leaves HC, hard to get both without rushing them. Leaves tends to be a adopted religion when it spreads to you religion.

good point, onedreamer. I had been inferring something from what was said earlier, concerning the AI and the CoE preferrence and something from the previous page, concerning the RP issues with both loving trees. Perhaps I interpretted something that wasn't there.

This expansion does seem to expand on the capabilities of hidden nationality units, and also gives you, the war planner, more options. However, I do agree with you in terms of flavor. The Svarts are essentially just evil cousins to the Lsjosalfar.

I had hoped for teleporting or phase-shifting...or a spellsword type unit (ala morrowind) with lvl 2 channeling and decent combat strength...Maybe a slave unit? If you play against the AI, then the Svarts practically break the game for you. If you play againsts Humans, then your abilities are kept in check. I think we were waiting on the art.

Then again, I haven't played a new game far enough to witness the impact of the councils.

I'm missing something here, I believe. How does Shadow expand the capabilities of hidden units if now they (again) can't take cities ? This is another sore point for Svartalfar: how useful is it to turn all your combat units into units that will not be able to take cities ? Your experienced units will not be able to take cities for the rest of the game unless you declare nationality again, a moot point casting the spell then, since unexperienced units are unlikely to cause any trouble. If it is true that Svartalfar should be offensive (I actually don't see significant strategic reasons for this), how is a spell that screws your offensive potential any good ? To me it seems more detrimental than helpful, but I haven't played enough and hopefully I'm missing something.

I'm missing something here, I believe. How does Shadow expand the capabilities of hidden units if now they (again) can't take cities ? This is another sore point for Svartalfar: how useful is it to turn all your combat units into units that will not be able to take cities ? Your experienced units will not be able to take cities for the rest of the game unless you declare nationality again, a moot point casting the spell then, since unexperienced units are unlikely to cause any trouble. If it is true that Svartalfar should be offensive (I actually don't see significant strategic reasons for this), how is a spell that screws your offensive potential any good ? To me it seems more detrimental than helpful, but I haven't played enough and hopefully I'm missing something.

The unexperienced units don't actually need to cuase any trouble, the hidden nationality units can't take cities but they can reduce them to 0 units, so you can use your stronger units to ensure there are no defenders before you even start the war.

I knew I was missing something :D

Hey, I just downloaded this mod and I noticed I can't seem to be the Svartalfar civilization. Any idea why? (Hopefully I'm not posting this question in the wrong place >_<)

The Svartalfar are not playable on Vanilla FfH, you must own BtS. (I assume that's your problem) If not, you must be playing a sceanario in which they are not present.