I've been pondering an idea for quite a while now and thought I would share it. There can be a lot of micromanagement involved in spellcasting, especially for spells such as Valor and Enchant Weapon.

I was thinking that a civ owning a certain number of mana nodes for a specific type of mana would auto cast those spells on all units within your borders. Lets say you need two sources of mana for 1st level spells. That would mean owning two Body nodes would auto-cast Haste on your units every turn. Then, with the appropriate tech level (e.g., Sorcery), owning three types of mana could auto cast second level spells that are appropriate (e.g., Valor).

The in-game justification for this is that a surplus of mana results in many minor spellcasters that can cast these spells for the empire. As tech levels rise and mana becomes more plentiful, society would naturally incorporate those spells into their daily lives.

Pros:
- much less micromanagement
- more incentive to hoard specific mana types
- more spell use for the AI

Cons:
- processing, possibly; I'm not sure if this can be implemented without slowing the game down

This would greatly reduce the importance of having actual adepts or mages. I don't like it. Also, ther requirements you listed are much too low. I would much rather have more important passive mana effects than reusing the spells without a caster needed.


However, if someone could create an automate option for each buff spell that makes the units go around casting that spell where it is needed I would be very appreciative.

I agree with Magister that the mages are good to have around. But I'm afraid of an "automate mage" option because of how poorly automated workers tend to do (at least by my standards).

What about a mechanic by which any mage who can cast unit spells like Valor or Haste automatically does each turn? So all you need is to have a properly trained mage in your stacks and the problem solves itself.

If such a thing were to happen, I would think it would require more nodes than is required to automatically give your adepts the spell. 3 nodes for 1st level spell, 4 for 2nd, etc...

Maybe this would be nice at say, 4 mana of the type. Or even higher. But at 2 it makes it almost worthless to actually build arcane units.

As for automated casting, it should be that when you set up automated mages they simply don't move around or something. Whatever is done it has to be something with a toggle to set it or remove it. Otherwise all of your casters might cast semi-worthwhile buffs when you REALLY need them casting defense/offense spells due to the present situation. And just setting the automation to do it at the end of the turn can be useless for some of the buffs (Haste, the first strike one...).

Not a bad idea at all.
I won't count the times I sweared micromanagement involved in casting Haste on my workers or garrison troops sent across my empire.
And Magister, you'd still need mages to use magic outside your borders (read: offensive).

or you may make it as passive spell, lvl 1 are launchedd automatiacally every turns in any city with a mage-guild (or whatever it is named) when you have 2 mana. then, you would still need mages for lvl 2 passive actions, it won't be overpowered as only your units in city would begin with haste, each new unit will be treetoped/enchanted blade automatically.

and honestly, sacrifying 2mana nodes for enchantement, for the worth of having adept starting automatically with it is already a great enough sacrifice.

If someone doesn't want archmages, or doesn't want to cast the majority of the spells, or doesn't want to cast spells outside their borders, then I can see this mechanic 'replacing' actual adept units, yes. In which case, power to them (or, actually, power not to them...).

In case you didn't understand my sarcasm, there are many spells that wouldn't fall into this mechanic. Rust, Charm Person, all Summons, etc, etc. It is only meant to replace those buff spells that add a lot of micro.
You would still need to build adepts to get the best spellcasters.
And you would still need adepts to cast any of these buff spells outside your borders (e.g., Valor, Regenerate...).

Anyway, on to other concerns:

"Place an adept on each stack and cast the spell yourself each turn"
- This is called micromanagement. This is what I end up doing every game.

"You should need more mana nodes to get this effect."
- Fine by me; I just want to reduce my micromanagement. Or, keep the mana requirements low and tie in a tech requirement (to represent your civilization's advancement along the magical tech line).

For a very long time now, the developers have had auto-casting on their wish list. They assumed this would be a command/stance given to mage units. I'm just presenting another alternative.

One more comment: how would this be too powerful anyway? For two body nodes you get Haste for free each turn (within your borders). Powerful? Not really. Convenient (for the player)? Heck yeah.

especially as you wrecked a mana node for any useful use out of a free hast... actually, 2 body node means every arcan unit can launche hast. thus you theorically have the manpower to launch hast on every moving unit, each turn (save your workers) with a lot of micro : concentring each moving units on the same square, launch hast, moving on the good direction.

so giving a free hast promo inside your border to your units save on micromanagement, + give the AI the same advantage. would be powerful also for echanted blade as even AI with the mana node doesn't micro manage to give it to every units

it is not as powerful as a free fireI for every adept or as free fire2 with 3nodes..

jsut a 'rusty' question :
in 0.23, rust targets 1 unit only, as metal promo comes back at the end of turn freely if unit is on a city it seems underpowered for a lvl2 spell.
if it targeted a stack it would be interesting. the yield is not interesting at all, disease being much more efficient (target a stack, does damages, effect is permanent)

maybe if rusts target stacks or if it becomes a permanent promo until dispelled or unit fully healed for x turns? (a promo negating metal promo)

A building to facilitate this would work.

A "Hedge Wizard's Guild outpost" in a city.

Make it semi-expensive, say the cost of 2 adepts.

Make the building give the effect of adding the spells of which you X mana to the units in THAT city, per turn.

That would be a balanced approach to making sure that it still costs what it used to cost, even if you never leave your own borders.

Make the building give the effect of adding the spells of which you X mana to the units in THAT city, per turn.


This wouldn't help hasting your workers unless you micromanage to have them in the city at the beginning of your turn. This kinda negates the wanted effect...

This thread suggested me the following idea (casting Sanctuary to fight Hell being another micromanaging annoyance):
How about Life mana lowering Armageddon Counter on the plots within your borders? There was some criticism of the AC levels triggering Hell spread to good/neutral/evil lands. The AI probably doesn't understand the importance of keeping AC under specified level, what puts it in a disadvantage.
Having each Life Mana node lowering the counter by a fixed amount per turn would give smoother result (over all-or-nothing trigger). Hell would be less probable to spread to Good lands as usually good AIs actually build Life nodes and evil AIs don't.

Good idea Vorshlumpf. I´m for it.

True, as long as it is only within your borders it does negate micro-management only, and would help the AI quite a bit. I could see the point of allowing it at the lower ranks of mana (2 or 3). My initial reaction wasn't thinking about quite how few there are, and the fact that mostly it assists the AI in catching up to the players.

I agree. This is a great idea, however perhaps it could be tried out on the Amurites only first, and see how it works. It would make them a little more magical (and more inclined to hog mana), and if it works well it will be easy to extend to all civs. Good thinking though.

A building to facilitate this would work.

A "Hedge Wizard's Guild outpost" in a city.

Make it semi-expensive, say the cost of 2 adepts.

Make the building give the effect of adding the spells of which you X mana to the units in THAT city, per turn.

That would be a balanced approach to making sure that it still costs what it used to cost, even if you never leave your own borders.
Yeah, I had thought about this, as well. It was my original thought on the matter, actually, when I read about auto-casting in the developer's wishlist.

However, in my games, it would only reduce my spellcasting micromanagement in half. I have many soldiers posted near my borders, either in forts or otherwise, and that's where I need most of these spells cast. It's annoying enough to have to cycle units back to cities, in an organized sequence, when I get a new metal available for weapons (and that only happens three times a game at most).

Also, I don't think there is a need to 'balance' this idea ;). I really don't see how this is any sort of a major tactical advantage for anyone (except the AI, since it levels the field for them a little bit).

Im not sure having all of your units in your borders getting haste (for example) is over powered, I know when I play the Amurites all my units do after I get Govannon. I would really like it if he would auto-train everyone in is tile at the beginning of every turn, that would really help cut down on my micro-managing.

It might make more sense if was just in cities with mage guilds, it can be argued that they have extra mages there casting the spells every turn.

What this would do is eliminate the cost associated with all the "micro-managed" adepts. If i've got 15 adepts w/ body I and mobility I running around with my 15 workers, that's 15 military units that I don't have to pay for anymore.

But an auto-cast feature for units would be great for things like "dance of blades" to be cast at the end of each turn to help boost your defenses.

There is a game called "dominions 3", which is an extremely good game in many ways, but which has a major weakness. This weakness is shared with many games, including vanilla Civ 4, and in a very big way with FFH. The weakness is a lack of focus on the interface. It seams to me that the FFH team is fond of including all kinds of funky new features, and who could blame them, surely that is interesting to design. However new features without tools to handle them sucks the hairy balls of the gods.

Long story short: Implementing autocast for spells is way more important than making new civilizations and whatever funky stuff is planed in Shadow.

What this would do is eliminate the cost associated with all the "micro-managed" adepts. If i've got 15 adepts w/ body I and mobility I running around with my 15 workers, that's 15 military units that I don't have to pay for anymore.
Okay. Are you trying to argue against the idea, or for it? :p
I like realism in my games, very much. But micromanagement seriously kills my games before their time. It's rare for me to even get archmages these days.
But an auto-cast feature for units would be great for things like "dance of blades" to be cast at the end of each turn to help boost your defenses.
This would be 'neat', yes, but it wouldn't significantly reduce micromanagement.

Long story short: Implementing autocast for spells is way more important than making new civilizations and whatever funky stuff is planed in Shadow.

Nah, I disagree.

The game is single player. If the power of your OCD compels you so far that you must absolutely have every single one of your workers optimized by following them around with an adept then so be it. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you have to.

Much of this mod is roleplay, we're all sitting around imagining that we're the king/dictator/grang poobah of the elves or dwarves etc. I happen to like the fact that it costs something to use magic, UI 'optimizations' that inevitably feel like shortcuts only serve to pull the player out of the scenario.

well for amurite it is boring to have each worker cast hast every odd turn.

and if you have adepts and 2body nodes (we are speaking about autocast or civ-cast with 2nodes) every adept has body1. so any promo can go toward your useful mana... and thus it becomes more a issue of micromanaging almost all movement to have stacks under each adept than issues of costs.

then, for enchanted blade it is even worse as the spell is permanent : to give EB to each melee unit you need 1 or 2 adepts for the empire. but A LOT of micro. so giving auto-EB each turn when you have 2enchantement mana means every adept has EB and thus you have enough bodies to encahnt every unit once.

IMO, the cost (2mana) would easily be worth the gain : civwide auto cast.
(oh We do not speak about earthwall and all thus.. they would still need a mage : they do not need micromanagement : they are permanent as long as the mage is in city...)

I happen to like the fact that it costs something to use magic, UI 'optimizations' that inevitably feel like shortcuts only serve to pull the player out of the scenario.
What pulls me out of the game is having to do nitpicky little things that should be automatic within the game's 'reality'.
I don't see this idea as just a 'shortcut'. It makes a lot of sense to me - always has. When a civilization gets to a certain technological level (in this case, magic 'technology'), it will incorporate that into everyday life.
E.g., Continual Lights cast on street poles for light at night; Gusts of Wind to power wind mills; etc.

well, it depends on the cost a simple spell has upon the adept/wizard making it.

I have to agree with this, even if it was just enchantment spells. It's one of my biggest gripes when playing the amurites especially. Hell, let me sacrifice adepts to make buildings that give the enchanted blade promotion, or sacrifice a sorcerer for a building that gives flaming arrows. These are permanent buffs and should be easier to handle.

Govannon adds a whole other level of micromanagement that might be hard to work around. Giving him a city spell (like hope or inspiration that goes away when he leaves) to create a training academy might help.

it might help but still leavs lot of micromanagement as you would need to move each unit toward this city after creation

When a civilization gets to a certain technological level (in this case, magic 'technology'), it will incorporate that into everyday life.
E.g., Continual Lights cast on street poles for light at night; Gusts of Wind to power wind mills; etc.

Exactly same opinion here, but introducion of less micro should be done otherwise:

New building in Sorcery tech(battlemage commad post), which grants appropiate spells atomatically and permanently at units built in city if some appropiate Nodes for spells are connected.(As if unit of axemen have a Battlemage as a commander)

Just what Fall from Heaven needs...More buildings.

julko :
proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6252197&postcount=22)
more buildings ??? not for FfH... only for the amurites :)

Just what Fall from Heaven needs...More buildings.
I agree. I don't feel adding more buildings is a good thing. Also, as mentioned above (and by me before), there is still a lot of micromanagement if the auto-casting is centred on cities (just like those weapon promotions). Assuming, of course, you are protecting your borders.

vorshlumpf - I like the idea.

Reduce micromanagement is great. And it does not give any real advantage to the player - if you wish, you can have almost the same effect with tricks of rotating troops around mages... I do such in every game, but it is really boring...

So - great idea, as far as effect only in you borders. In enemy land all fun with manual casting will be as nice as now :)

Btw, if effect seems too powerfull, it may be limited to cultural borders (!) of the city with mage guild. Not to city itself - almost the same micromanagement, as with casters, and no new buildings are needed, there already too much :)

Well, anything that a city provides/autocasts, a citadel ought to as well. So your border guards standing in Forts would not have to cycle to cities (at least I hope that a Citadel provides Weapon promotions...)

How about a slight throwback to Master of Magic and world spells/nodes, though with a little FfH twist?

Give arcane units a channeling spell that can be cast on mana nodes with a range of 0 (they have to be on the node), and is removed if they move (like city spells). Each casting adds to a global channeling counter of that type. So 4 mages sitting on a Body node can channel 4 Body mana.

Then when you have enough power channeled, you can cast far reaching spells. With the 4 Body mana channeled from before, a mage with Haste can now cast Mass Haste (all units inside your borders affected).

The benefits would be allowing spells that reduce micromanagement (1 cast per turn would haste units in your borders). The costs would be in building the units, upkeep, owning the nodes, and not letting your channeling mages die. It gives a REALLY good reason to protect your mana nodes even if you've trained your best mages already. You could even have fun channeling 50 earth mana, and causing a worldwide earthquake :lol: .

Okay. Are you trying to argue against the idea, or for it? :p
I like realism in my games, very much. But micromanagement seriously kills my games before their time. It's rare for me to even get archmages these days.


I wasn't really arguing for or against, just saying what one adverse effect might be. When it comes down to it, I don't play enough games where I use lots of magic for this to be an issue for me. Probably a problem with my playstyle and why I can't win above monarch level.

I think your idea is a positive one, I just wonder if "magitek" was the direction the mod is supposed to take. I kinda think most of the civs work more along the lines of traditional D&D than Eberron (except for perhaps the Amurites and Lurichp, both whom feel very Eberron-like).

Perhaps some way of 'attaching' an adept to a military unit (like great commanders). Then you could have the military units cast the spells using an auto-cast feature (still needing to be implemented)?

Just what Fall from Heaven needs...More buildings.

Your say that as if you don't mean it. ;)

Personally I think it could use several new mutually exclusive buildings, with both good and bad effects. However, I don't think there should be any buildings that don't have any effects except to allow building units.

Heaven, no.

FfH needs less buildings or even better an automated mechanic for a building to upgrade itself along the building tree without any human intervention.

(Forges upgrade themselves to weaponsmiths, Herbalists to Infirmaries whatever)

But back to topic. Indeed an automated buffing would be very useful and would save a lot of unneccessary human clicking around. For the time being it could already be useful, if we implement a feature that every spellcaster will make a check before I end my turn and will autocast buffing spells as per his repertoire if he has not casted this turn. In this case I could at least spare myself all the regeneration, valor, treetop defence spells.

An idea, could it be made a function of the guard option for adepts in cities? or perhaps another guard option altogether so you that players could put an adept on 'buff' duty.