first off id like to say i love everything about the look, feel and background of the Amurite civ. but when playing them it does feel a little like im playing with a baseline non defined civ, when compared to say the lurchip, calibam, khazad, hippus etc it seems there just a little... well plain.

as far as i can tell the 4 main things that distinguish the Amurites from being 'generic civ 1' are :

1)Firebows - yep there awsome ... but whats the most mechanically thematic unit for them doing over on the archer line?

2)cave of ansestors - amazing as well but it does feel like its a building that has been tacked onto the civ rather than something intrinsic to the civ (you could play with out them and still be playing amurites ... things would just take a little longer)

3) chanter - great background, sexy unit graphic ... meh ability ... since this unit has been in the game ive used the escape ability once ... if something attacks a chanter chances are it aint surviving to escape ... i'd much rather have seen its dimentional effect allow it to ignore terrain defensive bonus as it phases through them ... in all you could take the ability away and nothing much would be missed

4) magic wand thing on mages - ok its a nice one shot and represents the extra magical ability of the Amurites ... but at once per game for most of the units doesnt make the mage uu feel to special, it could be removed and you would still be playing almost the same game... now if it had a 5/10% chance of returning each turn once used ... that would make you feel like these guys are something special

suggestions and other comments

now this isnt just a whining session, id like to just make people think and possibly come up with some ways of making these master mages ... well feel like master mages ...

heres a couple of suggestions

A) remove metal weapon permotions from the amurites - now all amurite units come with funky channeling weapons and allow a fire affinity on units capped at different tech levels (eg max bonus +1 at knowledge of the ether, +2 at socery etc) this keeps the bonus inline with metal permotions but gives a unique feel to the civ

B) make an amurite archmage uu - ok with the cave you can have alot of tier 2 mages quickly, which im guessing most players of amurites do ... and of this cream of the worlds best mages, 3 shine through to become the archmages council of the amurites, the vast magical ability of this elite of the elite of mage is ... well the same as everyone else and surpassed by a few (gigori twin castering heros and sheim eater of souls) ... now in my book these guys should (background wise) be better than your regular run of the mill archmage ... they should be special ... they need something perhapes twincast access (but thats a little samey) ... or perhapes (and yes i realise this may be to powerful and possibly impossible to code...) give there spells a boost based on an affinity to the sphere of the spell (so yes that would mean an amurite archmage metor would be (with 3 fire mana) +3 str (and i would cap it at +3), this wouldnt work for all spells but would give them the added oh wow factor ... and be honest its not like that extra str is going to be much of a factor if your hit with 12 metors (gio + 3) but for each archmage ... well it would make you respect them! (perhapes make them pick a sphere that they would get the affinty in ... and lost if they liche!)

C) okie this is kinda an add on to idea A but had an idea for a uu that ive added below ... thought id put it up here for people who didnt want to wade through!

Lifeguard of the Flame
Avalible with Socery

str 1 + (fire affinity x 2) [so with 1 fire mana str3, 2 fire mana str 5 ... etc]
move 1
gains a 5% defence bonus for each mage in the same stack and has an 70-90% intercept on assasin/marksman attacks if they are targeting a unit with channeling trait

make it so there is a max number (prob 3) buildable and some non over powering flavour
(the unit graphic i would use is attached below (hero from aoi - such a cool looking unit deserves to be in the main mod!))

sorry that this is abit rambling in style and badly spelt ... i just wanted to get it down ala stream of thought!

Feedback and thoughts would be welcome!

actually the feel is different from lamba civ..

with enough mana node, you can have instant fireball mages... on the turn after you created them !! it is uber powerful ! (3 mana node, 3 from the palace, conquest + apprenticeship : 10xp ... 2 on fire1, 3 on combat1, 5 on combat2, upgrade. free promo on fire 2.)
it doesnt just reduce time it goes from a 20-50turns investement on a 2turns unit !! (mage are cannon fodder units, and not the long investment unit they are for other civs)

having every unit casting hast and dimensional and chaosI... so good
your workers becomes the Indian worker of vanilla (with lot of micro but still good)

your druids can launch every spells of nature/chaos/body/death ... access to divine, summon and sorcery spell : graft flesh, pit beast, summon wraith, stoen skin ...etc
you lich can have access to any spell of any spell-sphere if you work for it...
(I love my lich that can cast RoF, PoF, fire elemental and meteor. and the one that casts holy hammer, holy defense, magical staff and can also summon kraken and tsunami...etc)
those are amurite only features... then think about giving dimensionnal to every unit...

you want to attack a neighbour but show no sign of preparation : no units near him, he doesn't fear anything...hahaha) then move your palace. then teleport ALL your units (druids, lich, mace, firebows, mages) close to his city, + 1worker that cast hast and in 1 turn you have moved y our whole army in his lands...

no, I agree that special units are not so unique, that chanter with dimensionnal is a lost as you can give it to him with govannon but the govannon-mechanism is uber useful. But it is true, some Archmage or Summoner UU would be good.

but I dread the time I will not play amurite with all those cool, unit mechanisms.

yeah i understand what you are saying cal ... but most of the stuff you describe is achevied by unit/religion maipulation ... not really a feature of the amurites but a bonus of a particular way of playing them ... does that make sence?

ie the khazad will always be different to play because of the vault mechanic, the calibam will always be vamps, the lurchip golum makers .. even those whos abilities come from a buliding are geared to play round it (yes you can adapt it) so hippus with the horselord promotion, loij with the archers and fol synergy, and these buildings effect many more varried types of unit.

with the amurites you seem to have more options... but i find when i play its because your trying to make them unique rather than them being that way...

i just wanted to clarrify im not trying to make the amurites more powerful just more unique : for the worlds formost mages there not any better than any other civ just quicker ...

if you take any other civ and make them equal to the amurites in population/cities/resources they can, given time, have just as many fireball mages as you and given the right circumstance almost as quickly (combos of : app, thoelogy, titan, conquest) and especially with the new world spell the grigori can outstrip you in power magically at any level by using there heros as mages the buggers can get access to twincast.

as for giovan yes he is uber cool and his ability funky... but a civ shouldnt be all about its hero... if he dies you loose the ability to do all of that, whereas its very difficult to 'kill' all hippus stables ... personally i would rather the amurites have a unique mage guild that could issue out the level 1 spells and change giovanns ability completly.

ok well just had an idea for an uu, again just throwing ideas out there :

Lifeguard of the Flame
Avalible with Socery

str 1 + (fire affinity x 2) [so with 1 fire mana str3, 2 fire mana str 5 ... etc]
move 1
gains a 5% defence bonus for each mage in the same stack and has an 70-90% intercept on assasin/marksman attacks if they are targeting a unit with channeling trait

make it so there is a max number (prob 3) buildable and some non over powering flavour

i would use the graphic for one of the heros from aoi ... ill try and find it!

edit found and attached image of the unit i would use! and im going to add this to my first post!

I too feel Amurites' gameplay not enough specific (not only their ;)). Even with his teaching hero, who in fact gives more micromanagement then advantages. But I am a builder-style player so may be it is not my area.

The main problems of all new ideas is that the 1. team is overburdened. And 2. Kael now wants more system in FFH and less garbage. :) So the perfect proposition is a little easy programmed tweak which may cause huge variation in strategy and tactics.

But most players including myself prefer to leave problems behind and just have a pleasure of producing ideas. :)

1.There were a planty of ideas to produce a kind of warlock - fighting mage. I think it is best to do for amurites. Adepts and mages can be made stronger, have weapon promos etc.

2.As a variant, we can take off from Amurites adepts-mages and archmages at all. Instead EACH unit (maybe exept disciples and religious heroes) is considered as arcane in addition to its main specialization. So, at level 2 they CAN get promo sourcery 1, at level 5 - sourcery 2, at level 9 - sourcery 3 (and it is unlimited) as well as accordind mana promotion. And all of them gains XP with time (after Knowledge of the ether and gaining sourcery 1). It looks overpowered but remember that (a) each of sourcery 1,2,3 promo is not for free but cost a level; (b) it is accessible at higher levels which can be adjusted; (c) for s2 you must have s1, for s3 - s2 and s1. And we can balance them in other ways, e.g. take off metal weapon promos.
Crazy idea. ;)

3.Summoning enforcement. I imagine more permanent summons, summon supported buildings, summoned immobile city guards etc.

i'm in love with your idea ...

i'm in love with your idea ...
The second one? I am afraid it will never be implemented. :( It is completely new mechanism concept of the nation and cancels almost all previous work. There is still some fate whatever Sarah Connor says.

yes I know it will never be implemented...
and would be extremly difficult to implement if ever s/o would want to. (maybe doable by making : UU, new promos, new condition for promo: xp and promo... and ..?)

but doesn't matter, I'm in love with the idea,
can we be in love of the ghost of an idea ??

Personally, I would just like to see EVERY unit allowed some specific spell that is appropriate to them. Fireballs on archers, Return to Home on Scouts (maybe add in some shadow spell now that it is here?), put the ability to cast the first strke bonus on the warriors...

Govannon is nice and all, but you have to sit on the tile with each new unit and cast his spell 4 times. By then you probably have another new unit, in another city... so you have to move them to him or him to them and do it all again....

Yeah, micromanagement to the extreme. If he could teach all the spheres at one casting maybe a LITTLE better, but still you have to micromanage a fair deal, and as stated: You are reliant upon a killable hero to make yourself special.

It is nice being able to do massive skeleton hordes, and having workers who can haste themselves (if you don't normally automate), and getting 4 sphere's without having to pay the Level or build a second Node for each Adept.

I think it'd be great if each and every unit had a specific spell that was granted for free. Even better if it changes as you promote through the unitclass. Then it is a serious matter of debate: "Do I build an Assassin, who can cast Level 2 Shadow to hide himself... or do I build a Scout who can cast Haste, promote to a Hunter who can cast Gate (or whatever the name for return to Capitol spell), then promote to an Assassin who can do all three since I paid a ton of Gold for the promotions?"

It'd take some thinking about the specific spells to allow at each rank of unit, and you'd have to be careful that all of them are in the same line (sorcery/divine/summoning) so you don't accidentally open up more spells than you thought you would. Plus, some of the spells which seem to fit a unit are single cast spells (like poisoned blade for an assassin), so ultimately useless to grant them.

Maybe make them able to build some "ICBM Fireball/Lightening". A one time spell you need to build/channel in your city and which can strike anywhere on the world or a large radius. This would raise their magical warfare to some new level.

Or give their casters a "accumulate magic energy" ability. Counts as spell and empowers the next spell by some percentage.

But anything my feel tacked onto them. Thats why you maybe should rework govanno and the anyone can learn spells feature.

Govanno could have the ability to found(not sacrifing) special magic schools to teach anyone who got some magical talent(see children of.. AoI Scenario), so that new created units have a chance to get some spell(s) of any mana you own and inceasing probability for every additional mana node. Would decrease micromanagement at least.
While Govanno himself could get some buff like initial twincast or increased exp rate.

The Amurites are probably my favorite civilization but I think the biggest drawback to them is all the micromanagement required to take advantage of Govannon. It really slows down the game.

ok , i am a little bit confused.

the amurites are EXTREMELY powerful in the mid to late game. there is nothing stronger then them for sheer arcane might. their recon line supports having a 2 front war. their archery line is pretty much unstoppable.

where and why do they need to be strengthened?
--as far as taking away the metals and adding fire affinity... the amurites were never intended to be strong in the mellee line.

the amurites are militarily very defensive. with a very strong and versitile arcane tree.

not every civ is good at all things all the time

all the civs are balanced as a whole not as pieces.

3) chanter - great background, sexy unit graphic ... meh ability ... since this unit has been in the game ive used the escape ability once ... if something attacks a chanter chances are it aint surviving to escape ... i'd much rather have seen its dimentional effect allow it to ignore terrain defensive bonus as it phases through them ... in all you could take the ability away and nothing much would be missed
Perhaps if the unit had a withdrawal rate, but rather than the normal withdrawal effect the unit would teleport home. "Oh no, they caught me trying to assassinate the king! Time to go home." *BAMPH*

ok , i am a little bit confused.

the amurites are EXTREMELY powerful in the mid to late game. there is nothing stronger then them for sheer arcane might. their recon line supports having a 2 front war. their archery line is pretty much unstoppable.

where and why do they need to be strengthened?
--as far as taking away the metals and adding fire affinity... the amurites were never intended to be strong in the mellee line.

the amurites are militarily very defensive. with a very strong and versitile arcane tree.

not every civ is good at all things all the time

all the civs are balanced as a whole not as pieces.

This thread isn't about the Amurites being weak, it's about how the civ lacks flavour and requires something a bit more unique.

This thread isn't about the Amurites being weak, it's about how the civ lacks flavour and requires something a bit more unique.

thanks for the defence jono ... thats exactly the point i made in one of my above posts... im not talking about the amurites needing 'more power' just unique power!

actually the feel is different from lamba civ..

with enough mana node, you can have instant fireball mages... on the turn after you created them !!

Just build two fire nodes. 3 fire mana means Fire 2 is free.

Right, but you still have to have the spare exp to level up instantly upon creation (4 from Civics leaves you needing 11 from mana types? Pretty sure 15 is the mark for making Conjurer/Mage).

Not really a fan of these ideas. It is too complicated, and doesn't really fit the theme that well I think. The Amurite aren't all mages, although it is likely that most of them may know at least one very minor spell. There is no reason why they shouldn't get the normal weapons promotions, and your magical weapon promotion ideas don't make any sense and would be impossible to implement without seriously changing how affinity is implemented.


My Proposals:

Cave of Ancestors:

I'm not a big fan of the free xp either. I would rather this UB give a chance for any Amurite unit (of any unitclass, even workers) to start off with some natural skill for a type of magic. In game terms, they would start with channeling 1 and a random level 1 sphere promotion (of a type of mana you possess) (perhaps a small random chance for each, so a few units might know multiple spells, and many wouldn't know any). Additionally, there would be a much smaller chance that a unit could additionally start with sorcery and channeling 2 (but never 3). All of these randomly granted promotions would be based on how much mana you possess.


Arcane units:
The free sorcery/channeling 2 might be more common with for adepts. If so, it might be appropriate for the Amurites not to have a mage unit (since many of their adepts would basically be mages when first created, plus others might learn from Govannon); instead they would have ther archmages (perhaps now called wizards, but probably still of the Archmage class with the same national limit) made available with the Sorcery tech. Then, they could get a new limit 1 National unit--the Cassawallawn-- at Strength of Will, which can learn a fourth level of spells (which would have to added first). I seriously doubt that idea would be implemented.


Otherwise, I would like it if Wizard had Enchantment 3 instead of just Spall staff, so they could replace their staff when broken and/or have spellstaffs implemented as equipment that can be passed from one arcane unit to another and would additionally increase the chance of a spell's success slightly.


Govannon:
a. (I have already implemented this one myself) He should be able to teach any sphere of magic, but requires at least level 2 (probably 3) in order to train level 1.

or

b. (which I would prefer, but is too hard for me to implement myself, until I get a little more experience with python) His teaching should be made more powerful, but uncontrollable. I never really saw why you can control whom he teaches what, when he is disdainful of the magical aristocracy and doesn't like how they keep arcane knowledge from the masses. He would have no special training spells, but would randomly (through a once per turn python call) teach spells to the units around him (possibly not even limited to those of your civ! I think it would really amusing for a worker belonging to a rival with open borders with the Amurites to follow him around and learn enough to rival his nation's archmages. ;) ). Whom and what he teaches would be randomly determined (probably with some weighting so that he is more likely to teach weaker units. He wants to teach the poor to better themselves through sorcery, so his favorite student would be workers. He wouldn't be likely to teach arcane units, or the most elite soldiers in the Amurite army), and he wouldn't always be successful (perhaps he the chance of success would be based on Govannon's level, the amount of mana you control, and level of the promo. i.e., teaching the first level spells is a lot easier than teaching sorcery or channeling 2 or 3). First they would learn one sphere that Govannon knows (level 1). Then, if they are selected to be taught again, they could be taught another sphere or they could possibly (less likely) learn sorcery and get a second level. I'm undecided as to whether he should be able to teach channeling 3 or 3rd level spheres, but I think it would be nice so long as the changes are very low. He still could never teach a spell he doesn't know.


Unique building/terrain improvement idea:
"Mage Cloister:" Originally I was thinking of this as an Amurite-only unique fort, and possibly building with the same ability (I was also trying to convert Citadels of Light and Chancels of the Guardians to forts with special abilities). I started trying to implement it, but it wasn't working how I wanted it to. I suspect Shadow's more complicated fort system may make it even harder to implement as I'd first planned. Since my other ideas would limit the ability of the Amurite arcane units to get free xp, I would like "Mage Cloisters" to increase the rate arcane units gain free xp and also make their spells more powerful and have a much greater range (probably though a "Cloistered" promotion). This bonus only applies while the unit stays garrisoned on the tile. This represents a place where a mage can seclude himself to study the arcane and concentrate on casting powerful spells. When the unit is disturbed (moved, attacked, etc) it loses the bonus.

Just build two fire nodes. 3 fire mana means Fire 2 is free.you are right... it is what I do ..
but you still need xp to level to mage
(btw it is 10 : level4)
with amurite and 3 fire mana you can have :
spell extension1, combat 4 fireball mage the turn after you build an adept
(Fire1-2 are free, then free adept promo + 3promo : combat IV, then free mage promo : spell extension I)

getting 8 xp is doable by any civ with 3 civics + form of the Titan.. then you need to wait to have 2 more xp.
but having FoT is not every games, and restriction to those 3 civics can be damaging to your empire dvlpt.

so fire-mage as cannon fodder is the ultimate power of the amurite !!

yep but doesnt a command post make it 10?

for the worlds greatest mages i'll say again ... "for the worlds formost mages there not any better than any other civ just quicker ... "

you cant out archer the lioj , you cant out recon the salv, you cant out horse the hippus ... but it is possible (and with the grigori very doable) to out majic the amurites.

esentially most of the amurite uniqueness comes from gio a very killable hero ... if he dies ... well you get back to my point that whist the civ is not weak its just got nothing really unique to offer.

(as an examplei have twice declared war on amurite civs just because gio came in range of a commandoed raider ... noother reason than once thats done the amurites do kinda lose a leg ... and you know what thay say about one legged men and ass kicking contests.

but in summation - they dont need more power... just unique power!

ok,...
I agree... but still, get command post + FoT + the 3civics is doable but not really frequent.

But you are right, they lack in uniqueness.. (the free enchantIII for wizard would maybe do it)


I have an other Idea :
create an uber library the University of Magical Arts(UMA) that would need 3 cave of ancestors to be build (ala univeristy or cathedral), and strength of will (or omniscience)... thus only 1 in 3 city. UMA allows building the following buildings and grants 2xp to arcane units and give +2 :science: + grants chanelingI to units build in city (no effect save reducing number of pomo give by course)

-Body course: needs body mana and UMA in the city : grants bodyI to any unit built in city
-Chaos course: needs chaos mana and UMA in the city : grants chaosI to any unit built in city
-Death course: needs Death mana and UMA in the city : grants DeathI to any unit built in city
-Dimensional course: needs Dim mana and UMA in the city : grants DimI to any unit built in city

(maybe add 1 or 2 more courses, or maybe create some courses available for all mana types but each need both UMA and alchemist lab and 2 mana sources to compensate)

UMA is 200 :hammers:, each course building is 50 :hammers:

thus, if govannon dies, amurite still have units with free magical abilities, but it would be less powerful than govannon as you can't teach already build units, and can only teach units build in this city. furthermore it would be a late building, with a medium-heavy cost (400 :hammers: to have the 4 course in a city, limited to max 1 city out of 3. ) and it would limit micromanagement (especially in late game)
If you lose 1 mana, you can't build any new course for this mana school.

Govannon would still be useful for teaching to any units build previously or captured and for teaching units built in other cities. but to compensate his somewhat loss of usefulness give free twincast OR free enchantementIII promotion to govannon or another promotion : affinity to metamgic or spell range I and II or whatever...)

(edit : courses would be available to any civ, and only UMA limited to amurites, thus, as courses need UMA, only amurite may build them and it would save the work of having X unit classes that have to be "noned" in every civ save amurites. maybe add a +1% culture to all those buildings so they are distroyed upon conquest of the city - or maybe they are not destroyed : conquering amurite big cities would be worth it.)

or if too complicated, just give UMA grants body, chaos, death, dim 1 to each unit build in the city if you have the corresponding mana ressource available.
(maybe more complicated to code, but then : only 1 building class to create instead of 5-more and you have to keep sources for this mana in order to get units teached for this)

deleted error

ok, i grant you that your looking for something to give them more flavor....

is just that everything your talking about giving them is making them soo much stronger. what do you plan on taking away when you give this stuff to the amurites?

personally alot of these ideas would be great if you would do things like block out the alter and the soulforge from the amurites. but with those 2 buildings even available boosting their mages farther is just obscene.

Just stop the druid exploits. its counter flavour anyway to have them cast death magic.

daladinn :
I do not think our proposal make them stronger.
(typically giving wizard enchantIII is not increasing their power, just getting ride of this 1time spellstaff,
and my proposition was so late game, costly and limited that it is not overpowered but mainly allow a decrease of micromanagement and allow amurite to still be special even if govannon dies- mercurian does not lose angel if basium die !!)

(How do altar and soul-forge synergise with amurites and boost them??? -it is a genuine perplexed question)

Hoerks :
why not the druid combo??? it is the only thing currently making the amurite worth something in late game. Without them grigori or calabim are easily more powerful as magic-user civs. (that is strange for a the childs of Kilorin not to be the best at magic)
why not using death magic ?? you pay it as any other death magic use, and compared to arcane coming lich you lose : free mana (due to 2nodes or more amurite aims for 3fire : 2 free promo), + 3 free promotions !! that means you lose at least 5 promo and maybe more. you gain 3 nature promo : difference in total promo at the same level is at least 2 (depending on the number of 2-3 mana you have). + the lich from the mage path gained free xp coming from the cave of ancestor : 10-12.
so to compet with a lvl 8 mage path lich (65-12 xp) you need a druid path lich with lvl 10 or more : 101xp or more) thus needing 50xp !!! IMO that is a cost comparable (maybe) with having a lich using all domains of mana spheres.

for just druids ? why not, calabim's way of gaining experience and uber archmages is overpowered in itself but nobody raise a fit about it...? the grigori world spell add and about lore...? why not... elohim archmage studying death and becoming lich is no more in flavour.

OK, a few off teh cuff ideas:

Give the Amurites a UB replacement for the mage guild which gives some bonus to arcane units fortified in the city. Possible bonuses could be additional spell range and/or damage, longer summons (as per summoner trait), or perhaps even twincast (though my gut feel is that may be going too far). Such a city could be a tough nut to crack. This would also make the Catacomb supremely desirable.

Or, allow mage guilds to act as teleport gates once the tech has been researched, so no need for obsidian gates or the Nexus.

Or, and this one may just be too powerful, allow archmages to perform level 2summoning spells, and summoners to perform level 2 sorcery spells. However, this may not be do-able, as I think the level of castable spells depends solely on Chanelling.

Or, grant Immortals Channelling II and randomly Summoning and/or Sorcery so they can begin to gain spells beyond what they may have learned from Govannon.

Or, allow archmages, summoners and liches access to twincast.

Anyway, just a few thoughts, some better than others I'll admit. I wouldn't for a moment propose adopting all of them.

I have to disagree that the Amurites are in any way "plain", though I must admit to wondering why their "hero" doesn't have the Hero promotion and thereby access to twincast. These people are the most powerful wizards in Erebus, so why can't Govannon learn twincast? Enough ranting, though.

Instant wizards and firebows are the defining strengths of the Amurites. I recall several games where Govannon hopped merrily among my cities, teaching even workers to cast haste and summon skeletons. Firebows turned out to be the bulk of my military, as they are a siege unit/defender/shock troop all in one, and they needn't even take damage to bring any city to its knees by way of constant flaming bombardment. I recall gifting haste-casting hawks to my friend during a hotseat game and watching his many units with blitz overrun our enemies. I recall having a city that through various buildings and other boni was churning out firebows who started with a dozen or so xp. I think that was all the city built after a certain point in the game.

A thought for Chanters in Shadow: Perhaps instead of access to Dimensional I (which Govannon could teach them anyhow), they start with access to Shadow I. Just a random thought, there.

We'll see how my favorite spell-slinging civilization fares in Shadow and its coming revisions. To all the Sheaim/Keelyn fans out there: I just built a level 4 firebow and a level 4 wizard. Now where should I put them? Summon that! hehe Have fun, all.

What would be the point of letting chanters be able to make themselves immune to first strikes when they already are?

when i talk about the alter / soulforge combo....

when you sacrifice a unit you gain 2 things and i may or may not have them reversed...
1 - hammers = level ^ 2
2 - beakers = experience

anything that is going to add more xp to this equation and allow another level level is pushing the broken point.

as to the amurites power with t4 casters... its the fact that your going to have 9 of them. and the losses wont hurt. at any point you will ahve more mages ready to step up and fill the gap.

you already have a building that summons a fireball when an enemy comes close.

with 2 firebows and 2 mages in each city as a standard garrison your looking at a possible 7 fireballs into an attacking army. and they still have to deal with your defenses and 5 fireballs every turn. mix into this your workers and and other misc units casting skeletons. all of your workers having the ability to run to your capital when invaded....

have you ever tried to take cities from marksmen and flurries? especially when they can cast fireball and attack multiple times a turn (3+).

i am all for adding flavor to a civ. but the amurites do NOT need anything granting thier mages more xp or giving them more research.

I personally thank god that their hero does not have the hero promotion. another hero on the level of hemah would be broken. thats not counting the fact that he trains units.

as far as the recon line. they are intended to be different. rejoice in it and enjoy.

please look more into the way the synergies work before adding more things. if your going to add more things please look for something to take away.

2.As a variant, we can take off from Amurites adepts-mages and archmages at all. Instead EACH unit (maybe exept disciples and religious heroes) is considered as arcane in addition to its main specialization. So, at level 2 they CAN get promo sourcery 1, at level 5 - sourcery 2, at level 9 - sourcery 3 (and it is unlimited) as well as accordind mana promotion. And all of them gains XP with time (after Knowledge of the ether and gaining sourcery 1). It looks overpowered but remember that (a) each of sourcery 1,2,3 promo is not for free but cost a level; (b) it is accessible at higher levels which can be adjusted; (c) for s2 you must have s1, for s3 - s2 and s1. And we can balance them in other ways, e.g. take off metal weapon promos.
Crazy idea. ;)

Just FYI, I really love the flaovr of this idea. And its actually incrediably easy to implment. You just create an Adept promotion, give that to all the adept units and allow all Amurite units to start with it. Then you open up all the rank 1 spell spheres to all unit combats (right now they are just limited to spellcaster unit combats) and make them all require the new Adept promotion.

"Free XP" isnt a problem because free spellcaster xp is only given to units with the bFreeXP attribute set (in the vanilla version it applied to anyone with the spell promotions, but not anymore).

I actually started to implement this idea before I thought it all the way through and realized what it would do to the Amurites. Their spellcasters would become their least useful units (definitly not the intent) and they would be way to powerful.

Of course there are a ton of ways to try to balance this, but in the end I don't think any of them capture the origional flavor that I liked so much about this idea.

Anyway, no plans to add this. But I just wanted to comment that it was a really cool idea (I enjoyed reading your ideas in you crazy ideas thread too).

@ZhugeTien: No idea why Govannon doesnt have the hero promotion, I will add it (sorry daladinn).

woo hoo i feel honored ... he might not have commented on my ideas ... but my thread ot a keal post in it! that means the ffh god took time away from getting shadow ready to read and post on my thread ... (looks around at all the people waiting for shadow who are now planning to kill me for taking up keals time ... gulp)

seriouslly it is nice to know that the team do look at these threads we start ... it makes us all feel like the team in a way ...

thanks guys

@ZhugeTien: No idea why Govannon doesnt have the hero promotion, I will add it (sorry daladinn).

ok i made a comment in the sidar thread about how they could easily cripple the amurites by hunting down gio with there hero ... magistarcullen (sorry if i have mis-remembered your name) stated that as gio didnt have the hero trait he would be safer from him (re netherblade) ... guess thats not going to be the case!

but with the addition of the amazing sidar mechanic ... its actually starting to feel like the amurites do have a unique mechanic and feel ... there close to being the only one left thats normal :-P

woo hoo i feel honored he might not have commented on my ideas but my thread ot a keal post in it! that means the ffh god took time away from getting shadow ready to read and post on my thread ... (looks around at all the people waiting for shadow who are now planning to kill me for taking up keals time ... gulp)

no it is nice to know that the team do look at these threads we start ... it makes us all feel like the team in a way ...

thanks guys

You heard him. If "Shadow" is delayed its all DREWid's fault. ;)

You heard him. If "Shadow" is delayed its all DREWid's fault. ;)

perpares to go into hiding salman rushdie style ... just in case ...

Personally, I totally dig playing as the Amurites. I agree that they need something to make them more unique though. My thoughts:

It would be very thematically-consistent if the Amurites began the game with a unit capable of casting some spell. For that matter, the Hippus could begin with a mounted unit, etc. Some civs are defined by how they wage war, so having the appropriate unit type right from the start (instead of a warrior) would be damn cool.

Casting "Escape" is fairly useless for Chanters. I wouldn't care if the unit had its strength decreased or whatever, so long as it had a useful power. It's such a cool unit in every other respect.

Make the Amurite archmages into a unique unit. Maybe give archmages Enchantment 3 as a free promotion? That would fit well thematically with the way that Wizards get a free Spellstaff. I'm not sure really... frankly, it probably would be enough just to give the Amurite archmage a distinctive appearance. You know, like the chanter.

How about just giving the amurites 3 additional archmage slots? So you could have a total of 11 channeling 3 casters - 6 archmages, 3 liches, Govannon, Hemah.

been having a think about this ... and perhapes i havent made it clear what i was thinking with this thread ... i was trying to look at mechanics that make civs unique ... not what you can choose to do in an individual game (ie the amurite gov/druid trick)... but thinks that are part of the civ on a fundametal level that giv them there unique feel ... so im going to go through each civ and list the type of things that im talking about ... hope this will show people what i mean!

Grigori -- there heros and agnostic - these combine to give the grigori a very unique, very adaptable feel

Khazad -- the vault mechanic - no one else has anything like it, and it very much alters the way you play them compared to any other civ, no mages and awsome war machines

Lurchip - the golums - again a fundimental difference between them and any one else

Hippus - the horselord trait(permotion) - yes this comes from a building ( i beleve it was moved from being a leader trait for coding reasons) but really gives flavour to to them as a horse civ ... plus cheap mercs

Lioj - an amazing synergy with one of the religions, ability to build in trees ... +1 str to all archer units ... well its a rare day when someone doesnt let all this lot turn the civ into a forested archer filled haven for fol ...

Sav -- recon boost and synergy with sneakyness

sidar -- invisibility and the shade mechanic

Bannor -- crusades and demogos(sp?) plus all mele units having guardsman

The clan -- peaceful barbs pretty much rules the way you play

Sheam -- the whole gate mechanic

Luan - seafearing tech (ok boats are kinda pointless but the luan make the best of it!)

Balap -- the shear nutty randomness and crazyness of these guys (insane trait and the random effect of a few of there basic buildings)

malakim -- a desert mechanic that i'm sure will get improved (but yeah i'll grant you there a little plain to (hopefully till tomorrow!))

dollivero -- now heres an interesting one because at the mo they do have a very simlar feel to the clan... and in my experiance tend to play in a simaller way ... both myself and the uys that have played mp with me have experianced this)

now compared to this the amurites get one good uu (firebows) a reskined assasin (if anybody tells me there whole game style is influenced by the escape spell on this unit ... i will shout liar at them!) some bonus exp for there mages (and as i've shown above ... it is possible for other civs to go fireball mage out of the box) and a civ boosting killable hero ... which in mp is very possible, unless you micromanage bringing all units to gov way away from your borders, i tend to find people try to spot when hes in range and kill him.

now it might just be me but what that boils down to, if govanno is killed, as being totally unique to the amurites is -

1)fireballs on longbows

now i know i'm going to have people disagree ... but i hope ive shown enough to at least make people think ... every other civ that gets a boost to units does it off an unkillable building (archery range/ bannor training yard) or an easily replaced unit (battlemasters)

so i hope i've made my point!

(p.s. come on keal get shadow out on time ... i dont want the community to linch me!)

was talking with one of the other people i play alot with and he pointed out the one weakness to the amurite mages that i failed to make a note of. imho this if done in moderation would not overpower them but assist in the general feel thats already present.

sorcery ... mage school .... reduces upgrade cost of arcane units by 15%
conjurors ... school of summoning ... another 15% reduction
archamges ... metamagic tower .... another 15% reduction
summoners ... ethereal portal .... another 15% reduction

the biggest problem with having all of these highly skilled adepts coming into play was the lack of being able to upgrade them (cash issues) , this would solve that.

i always felt the feel of the amurites is to have magic in the hands of the populace , hence a higher number of adepts and mages. i dont see giving them more archamges as a good solution , however making the jump from adept to mags easier does feel right.


keal ? are you sure making govanon the most powerful hero in the game is a good solution? atm hemah is uncontested with our peaceful mage a close second (forgetting name atm).

ok , my 2 coppers for the day ... take care all

Luan - seafearing tech (ok boats are kinda pointless but the luan make the best of it!)

MMhmm. Boats are only pointless when you play on pangaea. With the new blockade & pirating feature, boats rock.

But I just wanted to comment that it was a really cool idea (I enjoyed reading your ideas in you crazy ideas thread too).
Wow! I am pleased. :king: Happy to produce some enjoy.

Adding "flavour" to the Amurites doesn't have to involve anything to do with making them more powerful. Just some custom models for their arcane units would go sooo far. And giving the Archmage a new name -- after all, if Mages upgrade to Archmages, why shouldn't Wizards upgrade to their own tier-4 unit? The Amurite adept could get it's own name too, like Apprentice or something.

Adept->Mage->Archmage becomes
Apprentice->Wizard->Warlock, and impecable style is the happy consequence.

Having a Cassawalan unique unit would be cool though.

okay here is my wacky-est idea so far ... hope someone likes it ...

remove culture defence bonus from the amurites and replace with (and yep this might get shot don due to coding difficulties) a mana sheild mechanic ... (and i hope this makes scence ... im tierd and its late)

every mana that the amurites own gives a 50-70% 'mana defence' which is then totalled and devided by the total amount of cites controled, to give a unifrom bonus to all amurite cities (capped at 100%)this would make the amurites very hard to early rush but would make there expansion very mana (and hense magic) focused ... you spread to much to gain other resources... you lose focus on the arcane and your empire weakens ... but if you keep after those mana nodes you stay nice and safe behind the controled walls of mana ...

examples (at 50% per mana)

4 cities 5 mana
total mana defence pool 250%
devided by 4 cities = 62%
so all 4 cities would have a 62% defence

now say you dump 2 more cities to get some iron and to block a stratigic area but with no mana about

250% devided by 6 cities = 41% defence

so by switching focus away from the arcane you have weakened all your cities by 21% defence .... time to start hunting mana!

id love to know what the team thought of this ... (yes im lonely and want a team hug!)

issue I see is about mana or mana type .. (ie : 3fire mana gets 50% or 150% ??)
and maybe add 10% per cave of ancestor + 10% alchemist lab....

yeah it would be per mana ... so 3 fire would add 150% to the pool to be devided

issue I see is about mana or mana type .. (ie : 3fire mana gets 50% or 150% ??)
and maybe add 10% per cave of ancestor + 10% alchemist lab....

This could be a bit of a problem in the late game, after the rites of Oghma have been completed, and the Amurite cities suddenly become indestructible fortresses. +100% is a lot of defensive strength for border cities and newly-conquered cities that would otherwise be relatively weak due to low culture.

I could see there being a level-3 spell that provides a powerful defensive bonus -- like Wall of Stone, but for Archmages or Summoners. There are still mana spheres without level 3 spells for all three magic types, so there's room for it. Obviously this would help every civilization (except the Khazad)... but it's a cool idea, and worth investigating.

Or maybe instead of it being a spell, it could be something that complements the Ring of Warding, but consumes mana to power it, not unlike how conventional resources are consumed by corporations in Vanilla-civ. There's definitely a lot of room to explore such ideas in FfH. It seems like the game doesn't emphasize magic nearly enough, in my opinion anyway. But I dig the whole spell system bigtime, so I'm probably biased.

As far as looking for ways to add more "flavour" to the Amurites, the focus ought to be on simpler things that don't add much in the way of power (even if exploited heavily) but influence play style.

Why not something as simple as adding a weak, cheaply-produced unit that acts as a "bodyguard" for arcane units, giving them more of a buffer against assassins? It could be overcome fairly easily by using, say, TWO assassins... but it would require more thought to be given to fighting the Amurites, and require the Amurites to consider issues like how many of these bodyguards to bring along, whether they should have archmages cast escape to get back to the capital once their bodyguards are gone. It makes sense that the Amurites might invest more effort in guarding their arcane units, since they are the true muscle of the Amurite military.

high cultural defence can never get too broken (especially capped at 100), it only takes some siege weapons to brnig it down quick smart, or some fireballs.

It also makes pillaging amurite mana quite effective as a precursor to hitting cities, double-whammy for them.

This could be a bit of a problem in the late game, after the rites of Oghma have been completed, and the Amurite cities suddenly become indestructible fortresses. +100% is a lot of defensive strength for border cities and newly-conquered cities that would otherwise be relatively weak due to low culture.

yeah didnt think about the rites ... how aout we make it so cites must have over 50% amurite influnce/population to work? (ie there has to be a certain level of base line channeling)


Why not something as simple as adding a weak, cheaply-produced unit that acts as a "bodyguard" for arcane units, giving them more of a buffer against assassins? It could be overcome fairly easily by using, say, TWO assassins... but it would require more thought to be given to fighting the Amurites, and require the Amurites to consider issues like how many of these bodyguards to bring along, whether they should have archmages cast escape to get back to the capital once their bodyguards are gone. It makes sense that the Amurites might invest more effort in guarding their arcane units, since they are the true muscle of the Amurite military.

have already suggested something akin to this, obviously i agree that a bodyguard type unit would really fit ... great minds huh? -->



Lifeguard of the Flame
Avalible with Socery

str 1 + (fire affinity x 2) [so with 1 fire mana str3, 2 fire mana str 5 ... etc]
move 1
gains a 5% defence bonus for each mage in the same stack and has an 70-90% intercept on assasin/marksman attacks if they are targeting a unit with channeling trait

make it so there is a max number (prob 3) buildable and some non over powering flavour

i would use the graphic for one of the heros from aoi ... ill try and find it!

edit found and attached image of the unit i would use! and im going to add this to my first post!

but i picture these guys a little different from you ... making them chaneller units ... hense the affinity and the defence bonus for the more mages you have in the stack ... i suggest capping at 3 so if the do get killed you stack of smug, safe mages becomes oh so killable again!

high cultural defence can never get too broken (especially capped at 100), it only takes some siege weapons to brnig it down quick smart, or some fireballs.

It also makes pillaging amurite mana quite effective as a precursor to hitting cities, double-whammy for them.

yeah this was the line i was thinking along ... imho this doesnt really make them more powerful, its just a different way of gaining your culture defence... something unique ... and plus thinking about it the whole border cities and newly conquered cities would only be that high if properlly planned for ... and i call double win ... if you have planned and acheved getting that much manner ... well thats a successful war and kudos to you oh mighty one!

doing it like that is not over powered even with rite of ogma :

exemple : my game: 18 mana (counting the free one (palace-wonders) and the ones not yet improved because of newly conquered) 23 cities.
if mana is 50% defense
- 40% defense per city : big for early cities.. equal to mid cities (500cultur) very low for developed cities that have usually 60% cultural defense.
if rite of ogma doubles my nodes I would have 12more : 30 xp = 60% in all cities !!

60% is big but rite come late.

only overpowered bonus : palace has 3 and maybe 4 : so when razing all amurite you would oppose the last city with maybe 150-200 % defense : that is a lot !!

malus :
-pillage is an easy way to lower overall defense in ALL cities !!
-big cities have reduced defense
-each new city captured reduce your old cities defense
-even if you capture new cities with a mana node close by : defense is reduced due to new city, you need times for : happiness returns, culture rise AND build the node before you equilibrate the defense again

how to compensate for the overpowered bonus :
-free mana get 20% defense, mana nodes gets 60% defense.
-magical defense appears with : strength of will or elementalism or the tech that give ward ring.. (building against magical attacks)
-capped at +100%

(1st option : in capital only : 80% defense if all is cities razed, 50% if 2 cities left and 5 free mana : 2 wonders, 3palace : a bit higher for capital solo but not unheard of in late game, a lot lower from mid game for your 2 last cities.
for my game : overall civ :
w/o ogma : 12 mana nodes , 6 free: 36.5%defense for all cities instead of 40 : very low defense for the civ.
w/ ogma : 67% defense : higher for new cities, higher for normal center cities : 60% is not hard : 3 rings is easy. but it comes almost late game.)

so IMO, this option (while not easy to code) is not overpowered in anyways, and may even be underpowered for most of the game. especially as pillage is quite easy, nodes are long to replace and it is easy to kill the mage that tries to upgrade the node.

Alright, another suggestion. Perhaps my earlier ideas were too strong, so how about this...

Familiar: The familiar can be built at a mage guild, using the hawk model, but perhaps at a higher production cost. Wizards, conjurors and their upgrades gain the ability to carry a familiar, just as hunters can carry hawks. Ideally a different model would be used (e.g. owl) but frankly that's just more work! Familiars and hawks should not be interchangeable: casters cannot carry hawks and hunters cannot carry familiars. Liches lose the ability to carry familiars.

Since the familiar would be weaker than the caster, it will get hit by marksman promoted units first, protecting its caster. The familiar would perform as a hawk (recon etc), but would also start with Channelling I and one random mana sphere available at the time it is built. If this happens to be something Govannon could have taught, well tough - you can't have everything. The familiar would be consider summoned, so may get fried if flying through a ring of warding.

Ideally, I'd see the familiar as being bound to a particular caster, so could not be traded between casters, rebased or left in a city, but this would prevent casters with familiars from boarding ships, so probably more hassle than it's worth.

Thoughts?

familiars!!!?!?!?!? why oh why didnt i think of this earlier! travelling hat ... sir i salute you for the idea of familiars!

having a read through i like all the base thoughts you have (ie a small magic boost and being able to send your familiar spying), but i would suggest a different implimentation. make familiar a promotion avalible with summoning and make it only avalible to amurites

the promotion is a double edged sword (hey the familiar has to get something out of it!) so taking this promotion weakens the caster (ala unholy taint) i would suggest a straight -1str but gives him access to the floating eye spell, which he can cast without using his normal spell slot. and also gives the caster a random 'arcane type' (spell extention, magic resit, or even straight combat (for empower)) psudo-promotion (ie if it gives spell extention 1 the caster would still have to buy spell extention 1 to get 2, but he would sitll have a free level in effect)

i wouldnt have it give a spell effect as this becomes increasingly redundent on any adept. i would make it a promotion to avoid the boat issue, and plus it ties it (binds it?) to a particular caster

hope this fits with the feel you were going for hat

I'm glad you like the principle. It just came to me in a flash light, possibly due to the fact they've just finished the road outside my office connecting me to a mind mana node.

My thinking on using the hawk as a starting point was that it would require building, hence some production investment. However, there's no reason it *has* to be done that way, and it does bring in the boat-boarding limitation.

Another way of doing it could be joining as with a Great Commander. A familiar could be a built unit which when in a stack gives eligible units (level 2+ casters) a "join" ability. Once joined the familiar is temporarily bound to that caster, with whatever effects its decided the familiar grants. This would also negate the boat-boarding limitation.

One thing with the hawk method though is it acts as a one-shot shield against assassination, which a promo or join doesn't.

Another way of doing it could be joining as with a Great Commander. A familiar could be a built unit which when in a stack gives eligible units (level 2+ casters) a "join" ability. Once joined the familiar is temporarily bound to that caster, with whatever effects its decided the familiar grants. This would also negate the boat-boarding limitation.
This seems like a really good idea. It would probably make sense to ditch the free spellstaff that Wizards get, since this mechanism would take its place as what distinguishes the Amurite's arcanists from the rest.

Since FfH has a lot of its roots in DnD, it would make a lot of sense for familiars to extend the range of their master's spells; after all, one of the main uses of familiars in DnD was that they could deliver touch spells on their master's behalf. So once you've attached a familiar to a Wizard or Archmage (a la the Great Commander mechanism), they get +1 to their spell ranges; combined with spell extension 1 and 2, they would get a truly awesome +3 to the range of their spells.

It's not overpowered, it nicely replaces the free spellstaff, and it has a unique flavour that other civs can't duplicate.

Of course, there could be different kinds of familiars; like in DnD, a toad familiar made the wizard tougher, a fox familiar made the wizard have better reflexes, etc. But that would almost certainly be going overboard unless the mechanism was provided for ALL civs.

I was thinking about the familiars as creatures (as per your D&D reference), but using FfH units. Perhaps a caster with a familiar could cast the first summon of their familiar's random mana sphere, which represents the familiar manifesting. However, if this summon is killed, the familiar is destroyed and the caster takes collateral damage from having their symbiotic link violently broken.

Since I would not allow familiars for adepts, this shouldn't make the caster much more powerful, although in the hands of a wizard/archmage it is granting them a summoning ability. However, hopefully the cost (probable loss of familiar) and risk (collateral damage) should outweigh that increase in power. I would foresee this as used for finishing off a weakened enemy, where the risk are minimal, or as a sacrifice to save the caster, where the risk is justified.

However, it could be the case that the familiar's random mana sphere does not allow summoning (e.g.mind), which I'd accept as being tough luck, much like if the familiar had a Govannon-trainable ability.

EDIT: Perhaps to provide some melee protection against assassins etc, the caster could gain affinity to the familiar's mana sphere.

EDIT 2: Damn and blast, I wish I'd thought of this in time to enter into the design a unit contest.

Love the idea of the familiars. And on the up side, Amurite wasn't an option for the design contest anyway :P

I was thinking about the familiars as creatures (as per your D&D reference), but using FfH units. Perhaps a caster with a familiar could cast the first summon of their familiar's random mana sphere, which represents the familiar manifesting.Giving summoning spells to wizards and archmages doesn't feel quite right to me. Summoning is the domain of the Sheaim and Balseraphs; the Amurites are about fireballs and lightning and whatnot. Not that I'd say no to the addition of such a thing... I'm just suggesting that it doesn't seem to fit the Amurite's theme.

Since I would not allow familiars for adeptsOf course. In fact, if there's any one thing that makes the Amurites stand apart right now, it's the fact that they barely have to muddle around with Adepts at all. They can skate right into the Wizard and Summoner level once they've got their mana nodes prepped. Anything to do with adepts really doesn't apply to the Amurites. That's part of why I think it's so important that they get custom unit art for their higher-level arcane units. Little things like that go a long way.

My proposal is new arcane units, and the use of farmiliars.

Adepts would remain the same, as said above, because they have a short life span.

Wizards would get the spellstaff promo, a slot for 1 farmiliar.

Archwizards would replace archmages. You can have 4 archwizards at once (a large advantage over archmages), two farmilliar slots, to help even more with assasins. Finally, they would get 2 free promotions upon becoming an archwizard then normal archmages.

Finally, the archwizard with the highest xp could be turned into the Caswallan. Using the patriarch function, the archwizard could sacrifice 10 xp and revert to an archwizard to give all arcane units 1 xp.

OK, perhaps the summoning feature is drifting off target. To summarise then, familiars should:

Be associated with a single random mana sphere.
Improve spell range.
Improve visibility range (recon, sentry etc).
Improve spell-casting (new spells, increase damage, reduce resistance etc).
Provide protection of some sort (take a first hit, affinity, resistance etc).
Damage the caster when lost (how can they be lost?).
If possible not use the hawk mechanism, to avoid the boat-boarding issue.

The mechanics we can argue over, but does the above meet with general agreement? My comments in brackets are just suggestions.

OK, perhaps the summoning feature is drifting off target. To summarise then, familiars should:

Be associated with a single random mana sphere.
Improve spell range.
Improve visibility range (recon, sentry etc).
Improve spell-casting (new spells, increase damage, reduce resistance etc).
Provide protection of some sort (take a first hit, affinity, resistance etc).
Damage the caster when lost (how can they be lost?).
If possible not use the hawk mechanism, to avoid the boat-boarding issue.

The mechanics we can argue over, but does the above meet with general agreement? My comments in brackets are just suggestions.

genrally yes ... but not all at the same time! perhapes make a couple of familiar 'types' ? and i know im biased cause i suggested it ... but as a pomotion seems right to me .... it saves all the mess of mounting units but still can meet all the given requirements above.

on the point of beoing lost ... easy way round that we damage the castor on at the begining and make them twined, if one dies the other does (so if its a promotion it obviously goes with the castor) ... i do find myself being against it being a sperate unit... makes it feel like a fancy summon to me! (but hey if this gets into the game ... we might be able to twist sez's arm into making a mage model with a familiar sitting on its shoulder for any unit that gains the promo...)

hmmm on a side note i think im going to tie alot of these ideas into a amurite manifesto (or drewids wish list of amurite stuff!!!) and if we can get into a form that the main contributors to this thread llike ... well we can throw it at the team and see if anything sticks!

just remember guys were going for uniqueness not power ... if we suggest a ramp up somewhere, well its gotta be down somewhere else (not nessicerally the same thing)

I'm certainly not proposing ALL the stuff in brackets :) That would amount to an I WIN button.

How about giving the them the access to Divine spells without using disciples? I mean its kinda strange that the Amurites would limit themselves to Sorcery and Summoning. Maybe something like:

Theist
Arcane Unit
Req. Priesthood, Incense
Cannot build, Must upgrade from level 4+ adept.
Starts with divine, channeling 1-2, medic 1.

and

Theologian
Arcane Unit
Req. Theology, Incense
Cannot build, must upgrade from Level 6+ Theist.
Starts with divine, channeling 1-3, medic 2.

If they get these units, they should also get Agnostic(Can't adopt a state religion.) to balance them. This is actually not much of a stretch since the Amurites can already get divine arcane units (Druid "exploit").

Another possibility is to give all units built in a city with a mage guild start with channeling 1 and a radom spell sphere that you have mana for. To balance this out, maybe taking out the firebows? It fits the flavor of the Amurites since

Desc: Although few know it, the Amurites are the descendants of Kyorlin. Because of that they have a powerful bond with magic and even the warriors amoung their ranks often know a spell or two.

So what do you think?

EDIT: On hindsight, priesthood and theology are far too cheap for both units. I'd make the Theist require Sorcery and Priesthood, and the Theologian require Soul Debt and Theology.

both idea are intersting,

having agnostic would really be interesting as a counter, losing Hemah :)

an amurite Hemah is overpowered ...
(4 mana sphere free from govannon), free xp at start from the cave of ancestor, free xp late game when using the world spell !!!

add to that twincast and his 8 strengh !!! mid game he is invincible !! he raze enemy cities alons, with 1 archer for defense !

I don't think it does make sense for Amurites to use any Divine spells, ever really. They believe in the power of magic, and the power of Man. Why limit yourself to what some petty god will grant you, when you could just sit down and research for a few decades how to do far more by yourself?

And it makes no sense to be able to get access to multiple tracks of Divine, because if one god is smiling upon your Civilization and granting favors, all the others are less likely to do so as well (they are petty ya know).

hmmm i like the idea of mortal men renowsing gods... but agnostic ... think of the mana loss from the religious capitals and the hero loss, and it become massivly depowering. but a loss of the druid exploit is suggested in my amurite manifesto (blatent plug!) as i agree that they wouldnt be happy to wait upon the favour of a code when theres magic to be learnt...

but access to those spells, if you get access to all divine spheres, through the units you suggest might be a balance for no heros or mana from religious capitals ... but i would have to be convinsed personally!