I believe that producing ideas for FFH is a kind of art like chess etudes and that ideas have their own estetic value independently of if they will be implemented or not. So, here is my art gallery. However it is not an abstractionism: everything is supposed to be implementable and non-gamebreaking.

Make your galleries! Do not let Eternity devour your inspiration!

Amurites

Idea: Let ALL their units be real arcane with full perspectives. No more adepts, mages, conjurers, summoners and archmages. But any unit when gained level 2 if Knowledge of ether is researched can take sourcery 1 promotion (so1) and start gaining XP with time. Then with next levels it can take either Arcane or Summoning promo and/or mana spheres promo. On the level 5 it can take so2 (if has so1), on the level 9 - so3 (with no limitation of number). No mages guilds, no free promos with more then 1 mana. But still keep Govannon.
Reason: I feel their gameplay is not enough bright.
Effect: Amurites magics become more slow (no instant mages) but potentially very strong. Maybe balancing will be needed.

Balseraphs

Idea (started from the idea of Black Whole): Each Balseraph living non-national non-world living military unit has a 10% chance to start with mime promotion. Any unit with this promotion after the battle if survived turns into exact copy of its adversary keeping only mime promotion and health percentage.
Reason: funny and flavorful.
Comment: I thought much about this. It should not be overpowered but can provide a vast number of minor tactical and even strategical surprises. It should be perfect for the feeling of insanity.

Bannor

Idea: Add new property to Bannor palace: each time an enemy unit tries entering the unprotected Bannor capital if the population is more then 1, a warrior is generated in a city for -1 population.
Reason: Only flavor. Let them be real fanatics. Bannor capital can not be captured.

Calabim

Idea: Add to vampirism promo slow losing XP with time.
Reason: Hunger. Balancing.

Clan of Embers

Idea: Barbarian units spawn on the territory of states who are in peace with barbarians as like if it was non-observed wilderness. MagisterCultuum adds: Barb trait civs' units lines of sight shouldn't prevent barb spawning either, while the civ is still at peace with the barbs.

Reason: I miss wild barbarians in mid- and end-game.

Doviello

Idea: Tundra tiles need only 1 population per 2 tiles to work for Doviello.
Reason: They need a boost and some specific tundra affinity. Though I suspect it is not enough.

Elohim

Idea: Unique tile improvement - great wall. Enemy must attack this tile 3 times without lose of health, after that wall is broken and enemy can enter the tile.
Reason: Some protection from commando units. Having Tasunke as overland neighbour is horrible.

Grigori

Idea: Adventurers are renamed to great adventurers. Grigori gain new specialist: adventurer. Adventurer produce 3 culture, -3 commerce and great adventurer points per turn, also two unhappiness and 1XP for newly built living military units in a city. Provided by brewery and Grigory tavern.
Reason: Flavor. Not all adventurers are really heroes.

Hippus

Idea: Horselord promotion grants 5% horse affinity to withdrawal chance instead of fixed +10%.
Reason: Flavor and reason for more horses. The more fresh horses the easier retreat.

Infernals

Idea: Hyborem gains a spell "Erebus boiling". When casted all tiles within 2 tiles of Hyborem are raised: hills turn into peaks, flat tiles into hills, water into flat tiles. Units which were on hills die, cities on hills are razed. Hyborem loses 99% of health. Casted only when in full health.
Reason: Infernals usually have problems with lifespace so let them turn seas into land. Let Hyborem be more horrible: noone can hide from Hell in his city on the hill. And let some occasional victims draw him into wars.

Ljosalfar

Idea: One should be able to cast Bloom over elven improvements.
Reason: Otherwise player is obliged to boring micromanagement.

Luchuirp

Idea: Any golem can be stored in a city: for instant price golem gains movement 0, loses each turn 3% of health (but not below 1%), can not be repared and healed while stored but does not need a fee. At any time it can be turned on again.
Reason: Make gameplay more specific. Flavor.
Effect: Luchuirp will be able to have a giant stored army for no regular fee but need some time to revive it.
Ways of balancing: pay more to store, decrease golem healing rate. Variant by Kol.7: No health lose but +50% upkeep for active golems.

Malakim

Idea: (After Sanitation?) Malakim workers are able to build oasis on desert tile. No Vitalize casting on oasis possible.
Reason: Malakim need good improvement for desert tile. Nomad promotion itself is not enough good reason to keep deserts in fat cross when they can get rid of them.

Mercurians

Idea: Whenever Basium enters or passes a tile Sanctify is casted automatically.
Reason: Flavor. Will be nice to observe his invasion into Hell terrain territories.

Some neat ideas here.
Amurite: Let ALL their units be real arcane with full perspectives.
I like the idea, but my concern here is that there is no seperation between magic and combat experience in FfH. If I played the Amurites (with this mechanic), every unit would take the Sorcery promotion, even if I never intended to give them magical abilities. They would collect XP for just sitting around.

Not that I dislike free XP :D

Bannor Let them be real fanatics. Bannor capital can not be captured.
Very nice.

Calabim Idea: Add to vampirism promo slow losing XP with time.
Makes sense - adds good flavour.

Clan of Embers Barbarian units spawn on the territory of states who are in peace with barbarians as like if it was non-observed wilderness.
Yes! Most definitely. And, Barbarian units should be able to move through BARB trait civs (assuming that hasn't been fixed yet).

Doviello Idea: Tundra tiles need only 1 population per 2 tiles to work for Doviello.
Yes, something like this would be nice.

Hippus Idea: Horselord promotion grants 5% horse affinity to withdrawal chance.
Very nice idea to promote resource-hoarding ;)

Ljosalfar Idea: One should be able to cast Bloom over elven improvements.
Reason: Otherwise player is obliged to boring micromanagement.
Whole-heartedly agree.

Luchuirp Idea: Any golem can be stored in a city
Very neat.

Luchuirp could be VERY overpowered in a big game. The only thing they need to maintain is a sufficient number of adepts who can cast repair, since the spell is applied to all units in a stack with no upper limit. So let's say 6 or 7 adepts could instantly repair a monster stack of 100 golems taken out of storage. If they find some way to counter this, I really like the idea.

Grigori makes sense too and would allow for adventurers to be a viable strategy late-game. (there may need to be a wonder that gives unlimited adventurers in one city or sth for it to work late LATE game on a big map). I'm not sure if the stats of the adventurer person make sense, though--one unhappiness is a big disadvantage.

Love the Lurchip idea, a little concerned though that if their Golems had been in storage for a long period of time they will have 1% HP when their woken up, AFAIK if there are lots of them in that condition adepts etc would take longer to repair them all to full health, by then it might be too late.

The idea is great though. While the golems are active they require a lot of maintainence, while in storage they don't really so maybe they shouldn't lose HP over time. Maybe instead, Lurchip would pay 50% extra upkeep for active Golems?

giving hippus an unlimited supply of 100% withdrawal troops seems a bit overpowered to me (with flanking 3 they get +50%, horselord is +10%, base +25%, with 2 additional horse res besides the one in your capital you'd hit 100)

The Calabim and Clan ideas are verrrrrry good!
Ljosalfar and Mercurian would be good, too. The other ones are mostly cool.

If I played the Amurites (with this mechanic), every unit would take the Sorcery promotion, even if I never intended to give them magical abilities. They would collect XP for just sitting around.


Sure it needs balancing. That may be according to DREWid no metal weapon promo. But I feel that is too much...


Yes! Most definitely. And, Barbarian units should be able to move through BARB trait civs (assuming that hasn't been fixed yet).

Sure.

Luchuirp could be VERY overpowered in a big game.
That is true. Must think. Maybe make Repair not for stack, but for unit?
No! Let us make a non-repairable percent: probability of crash when tried to revive.

Grigori makes sense too and would allow for adventurers to be a viable strategy late-game. (there may need to be a wonder that gives unlimited adventurers in one city or sth for it to work late LATE game on a big map). I'm not sure if the stats of the adventurer person make sense, though--one unhappiness is a big disadvantage.
Two unhappiness. :) There is a problem with 1XP for unit per specialist. It is very strong so penalty is very strong also. I do not think one can successfully balance unlimited adventurers especially with Grigori world spell.

Maybe instead, Lurchip would pay 50% extra upkeep for active Golems?
May be it will balance... This will make Luchuirp tend towards long peace and blitzkrieg. Even more individuality and less micromanagement - I like it! But that will make them too vulnerable in early long wars, e.g. against raging barbarians.

giving hippus an unlimited supply of 100% withdrawal troops seems a bit overpowered to me (with flanking 3 they get +50%, horselord is +10%, base +25%, with 2 additional horse res besides the one in your capital you'd hit 100)

I know about this problem. But 1) I assume that +10% from horselord is removed, remains only affinity. 2) XP spent to flanking 3 is really much. I do not think it is completely overpowered. Only on big map with great number of horses - but that is specific situation. :)

The Calabim and Clan ideas are verrrrrry good!
Ljosalfar and Mercurian would be good, too. The other ones are mostly cool.

Great! I will collect votes for some pressure on the team.:lol:

Not that I dislike free XP Weren't you the one wanting easy battles to give 0 xp? ;)

calabim have been nerfed enough firstly feast can only be used once per turn, aristocracy only provides plus 1 food instead of two( yes i do realize that this isnt only for the calabim but still) and altough im bit sure id be willing to bet that the calabim are going to loose earth mana to shadow mana at their palace so you can say goodbye resources just showing up.

Weren't you the one wanting easy battles to give 0 xp? ;)
My heart and my head constantly battle one-another :mischief:

Amurites

I'm not really a fan of this implementation. I prefer what I just suggested in the "Amurites - a little plain?" thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6251789&postcount=19

Balseraphs

I'm not sure its possible. Also, while I would certainly have liked a Mine UU with these abilities implemented, it doesn't seem like such a great idea for something to be randomly applied to every unit.

Bannor

I don't think this should be limited to the capital. I would rather it apply to all their cities, but randomly, not every time. It might also be better as an effect of a new building or wonder instead of a civ specific mechanic. (and the Bannor capital certainly was captured; they capital was Braduk, now "the Burning." I don't see them being much more fanatical about defending their current capital than defending any of their their cities--which is to say, still quite fanatical)

Calabim

Possibly, but only if their feast ability is made to give even more xp than it does now, and if either "feast" or "feed" can prevent this for several turns. ALso, I think this shouldn't apply while they are in one of their own cities (maybe just those with Governor's Manors?), since presumably there would many sources of food there. Also, I think there are some units (bloodpets) that would be willing to give up a little blood at a time to keep their masters strong.

However, the Civilopedia entry for Alexis says that vampires don't have to feed often, since one life taken can prolong theirs by 10 or 20 years, so I'm not sure a hunger mechanic makes sense. Also, the Calabim are already getting a new weakness to sun spells.

Clan of Embers

Good idea. (No barbarian city spawning there though.) Since I think barbs aren't supposed to spawn on tiles visible to other civs, this shouldn't be limited to just within their territory. Barb trait civs' units lines of sight shouldn't prevent barb spawning either, while the civ is still at peace with the barbs.

Doviello

I'd rather see something like free xp per tundra or ice tile in their city radii, and having their units have some cold resistance and/or combat boni for those terrains.

Elohim

Probably impossible to implement, and it really doesn't fir the monk's theme that well. I think the new fort system may take care of the raiding problem.

Grigori

Hippus

I would like it, but it would require a major change to the way Affinity works that would be difficult to implement. Kael isn't willing to make affinity more complicated than it currently is, since there are still some bugs with it that he hasn't figured out yet. Your welcome to try to get him to add new types off affinity, but I don't think you will be any more effective than I've been.

Infernals

Ljosalfar

Yeah, and in Ljosalfar cities too.

Luchuirp

It sounds interesting, but in general I'm, not sure I see the point. I would rather see more ability to specialize golems for specific tasks, by implementing "retrofit" spells that remove give them the promotions granted by the various UBs (they need more promotion granting UBs too) and removing those that don't fit so well (light and heavy, for instance)

Malakim


Mercurians

I assume you mean he auto-castes sanctify not life (that's a sphere, not a spell). Sounds good, but I don't usually see him personally invade so I'm not sure how big of a change it would really be.

calabim have been nerfed enough firstly feast can only be used once per turn, aristocracy only provides plus 1 food instead of two( yes i do realize that this isnt only for the calabim but still) and altough im bit sure id be willing to bet that the calabim are going to loose earth mana to shadow mana at their palace so you can say goodbye resources just showing up.
Yeah, some tweaks in upcoming version may change much.

Amurites

Balseraphs

I'm not sure its possible.


Why? What can be more simple then copy a unit? :) It shoud be more simple then most of entries here.

Bannor

I don't think this should be limited to the capital...

I did consider all of that. ;) One can keep it in mind.

Calabim

Possibly, but only if their feast ability is made to give even more xp than it does now, and if either "feast" or "feed" can prevent this for several turns. ALso, I think this shouldn't apply while they are in one of their own cities (maybe just those with Governor's Manors?), since presumably there would many sources of food there. Also, I think there are some units (bloodpets) that would be willing to give up a little blood at a time to keep their masters strong.

The another Idea is to press Calabim waging the war. As they are evil.

May be really stop losing XP when they are in stack with living units, but for each vampire in a stack random living non-vamp unit get -10% health.

However, the Civilopedia entry for Alexis says that vampires don't have to feed often, since one life taken can prolong theirs by 10 or 20 years, so I'm not sure a hunger mechanic makes sense.

Are you eating only when it becomes absolutely necessary? :p

Clan of Embers

Good idea. (No barbarian city spawning there though.)

Of cause. Units only.


Barb trait civs' units lines of sight shouldn't prevent barb spawning either, while the civ is still at peace with the barbs.

Exactly. Will add.

Doviello

I'd rather see something like free xp per tundra or ice tile in their city radii, and having their units have some cold resistance and/or combat boni for those terrains.

I feel now they need more economical and expansion bonuses then military.

Hippus

I would like it, but it would require a major change to the way Affinity works that would be difficult to implement.

Kael told that affinity is appliable to any kind of resource. I do not know if it is difficult to apply it to withdrawal chance. In any case as I told it is more art then plan.

Ljosalfar

Yeah, and in Ljosalfar cities too.

Elven cities. Right. It will give additional defence bonus and more treants for the spell.

Mercurians

I assume you mean he auto-castes sanctify not life (that's a sphere, not a spell). Sounds good, but I don't usually see him personally invade so I'm not sure how big of a change it would really be.

Right. Sanctify.
I did make this invasion myself a couple of times. :) And have seen him walking Hell terrain even more often.

that was a nice collection of crazy ideas !!

most are really fun !!
they would make a good mod-mod after shadow is released + debugged :)

Magister : Barduk the burning was not captured. it was a cultural flip : bhall fell, and changed almost all the pop toward evil, orcs and demons
the bannor are survivors that resisted the change, fled and where protected.
IMO, they would defend their new capital more thoroughly than any other city, as the sign they survived the fall of Bhall.

i like the people defending the bannor capital but the effect should be the same as drafting (the standard infantry unit is built not just a warrior) just it happens automaticaly.

they would make a good mod-mod after shadow is released + debugged :)

No, mod-mod should be of something one. And as I know myself if I'll finally get into programming my plans will grow much faster then my abilities. :(

i like the people defending the bannor capital but the effect should be the same as drafting (the standard infantry unit is built not just a warrior) just it happens automaticaly.

Why not:
1) Draft is very powerful. Unlimited draft, even automatic looks overpowered. Especially as these drafted units arise non-injured by the previous magic bombardment many times per turn.
2) I consider that Torrolerial can not be captured: population goes to 1 and then city with pop 1 is necessarily razed by enemy enter. But in case of draft stronger units need more then 1 pop, so there may be a problem of going to 1 pop by draft.

Right. Sanctify.
I did make this invasion myself a couple of times. :) And have seen him walking Hell terrain even more often.

I love this idea for the Mercurians!:)

My main strategy with them is to get Basium up above 100 XP with promotions and have a couple of strong Angels join his troop along with a Priest unit (usually Confessor) and then send them out to destroy Evil civs, especially with AV. You might as well do this as the game will automatically declare war for you anyway.

I was also including an Adept with Sanctify in the gang, but your idea would eliminate this. Thankfully, because those Adepts are easily picked off by Assassins and other units with Marksman.

Great idea!

I didn't said you should make a mod-mod but that it would make a good mod-mod... meaning the idea are good and I like them :) not that they mey ever exist somewhere... sadly..

@ it-ogo

Nice :) Of course, some of your ideas are insane (Amurites, Balseraphs, Infernals), but some of the others seem balanced and flavourful :P

The Ljosalfar/Svartalfar blooming over elven improvements is a no-brainer (if it's feasible).

The Clan/Diovello barb spawning seems balanced too - it makes them annoying neighbours even if you're at peace with them. Maybe combine this with some way of converting said (non-unique) barbs in your territory for a supply of free units?

The Bannor idea is also quite cool, but I'd prefer it to be represented by a higher chance of city revolt for all of their cities. Mechanically, your way may be better though.

The Luchuirp idea is interesting, and so is MagisterCultuum's. How about combining the two: Golems gain the ability to switch 'mode' in the same way as ships have different crew settings, based on the buildings(workshops?) you have in that city. For example, you could have a 'Storage Workshop' which grants the deactivated-no-upkeep-sleep mode, 'Gridline Workshop' which grants a city-defender mode, 'Velox Workshop' which increases speed and lowers strength etc... Also a 'mode' which repairs the golem (when in a city) would be good too, and stops you relying on adepts except in the field.

I think the Calabim bit might be cool. Not -1 XP per turn, but like the reverse of an adept, so that after 10 turns or so you lose the equivalent of one feast. Then a player wouldn't gift to every unit that was eligible, but save it for an elite few, 1-3 per city.

Although it might not have much of an effect, assuming you feast several turns in a row and spend all the XP at once; no matter how much XP you lose you won't lose promotions.

as you said the_fish but with 2 provisio :
-changing golem mode should block the golem for 1 turn at least
-reduce the golems health by 50% ... (time to do the change + loss of units due to malfunction)
because if you can change them at will in any city they may become overly powerful. l(like getting them from storage to veloce in 1 city, then sending them to the needed city and then changing them back to gridmode, all in 1 turn.

with my proposal it would need 2turns AND leave the golem with 25% health ..thus not so overpowered to have storage. (storage give -1 promo, no upkeep)

then add another change : 'repair' (from dwarve enchant adept) should only repair up to 50 health at a time.
thus a golem damaged to 40% health will need 1 'repair' to go to 90% then another one.

but working these change as the 'crew' promo is a nice idea !!

You said it. Some of these ideas ARE pretty crazy. Disregarding the insane amount of coding involved in some of them (not that I'm a programmer), they would turn the balance of FFH II on its proverbial ear. Here's what I see as the problems:

Amurites: They already have plenty of power and flavor if you approach them correctly. Making every unit a caster sounds like a great idea until you're faced with an army of hunters carrying an equally large army of hawks all capable of summoning big, fat elementals to rain destruction down upon your capital. Sure, they'd have to leave a few to protect the stacks, but this suggestion is immensely overpowered. Let's not even start with the potential horrors of the fireballs or meteors such units could eventually unleash. "Ouch! I'm on fire! Make stop the burnings!"

Belseraphs: The mime ability seems benign enough at first, but such a thing would be quite overpowered and horrific in a game with such potential for very powerful world units and such. One could use one t4 mime unit under sufficient escort to wipe the world clean of heroes and the like! Think of what happens when mimes defeat Acheron or worse yet, an even more powerful late-game unit. It's a whole new avatar of wrath or Hyborem or Basium, sitting inside a city, waiting for your army to come make him very, very weak by throwing themselves at him. Well, perhaps it's not so overpowered after all. Perhaps it's simply sloppy and useless.

Bannor: If you're playing the Bannor and your capital has somehow been attacked to the extent that it is no longer defended, you haven't been playing very well. Having the palace continually eat population to spawn warriors strikes me as a particularly Calabim thing to do. There are already plenty of ways to hurry-build defenders with civics a Bannor player under Crusade would find most appealing. There is no need to implement such an idea, even if it wouldn't be the coding nightmare I expect.

Calabim: Losing xp over time due to hunger doesn't make much sense. Losing attack/defense strength over time to hunger would be more appropriate, but that would require coding things so that a vampiric unit must win a battle every X turns or suffer Y% damage. This is one of the better concepts you've presented, but is still a bit more complexity that the game doesn't actually need to be playable and balanced.

Clan of Embers: This isn't such a bad one, either. It might not even be that hard to code. I wouldn't know about that. The only issue I see is that perhaps with all these higher-tiered orcish units spawning inside one's own borders, what happens if you'd like to employ units with hidden nationality to weaken your rivals? They would be doomed from the start, or at best have an immense pool of xp from slaying countless orcish crossbowmen or whatever. Thus it is unbalanced, one way or the other. Try a Terra map if you like mid- to late-game barbarians. You'll arrive on the New World to hundreds of orcish crossbowmen or their equivalent.

Doviello: Regardless of the fact that Charadon may already receive your proposed barbarian buff, this one seems to be based on good intentions. Tundra tiles and certain civs' affinities for them should be addressed in some way, though I'll wait for Ice before I go too far down that road. One population working two one-food tiles would be about as effective as an undeveloped grasslands city, though it would only ever reach half the population of such a city. The best way to build on tundra is to find some deer near a river on a coast where one can farm the tundras with access to fresh water, camp the deer for extra food, build a lighthouse for the coastal food and gold, and hope for forest spread to lumbermill. The basic problem of civs' affinities for tundra does deserve some attention, which I suspect it may be given in Ice.

Elohim: The Great Wall concept is a bit much for a civ who already has the defensive trait. Placement of one's troops is paramount to surviving attack. With the new fort mechanics, I wonder how effective a mounted rush can truly be against any well-played civ, particularly a defensive one.

Grigori: There is a reason that adventurers are scarce in the late game. No other civilization has access to such overwhelming numbers of heroes, and rightly so. The Grigori have this to make up for the fact that they can neither adopt nor found religions, and it is balanced enough as it stands. With the new world spell, Cassiel's people will have even more of these very powerful units which can be upgraded. Adding this new specialist only serves to further complicate an already challenging-to-play civilization.

Hippus: Having more horses doesn't seem to justify easier withdrawal. Each soldier can still only ride one horse, after all. There is already ample reason to have multiple sources of horse as the Hippus: simple trade. Horses are a strategic resource which can be traded for mana, iron, and other very useful goods. Adding an affinity makes the already high withdrawal rate of Hippus units even more open to abuse. "My city was attacked by 20 horsemen. Only two of them died."

Infernals: Think of using this against the poor Khazad. Suddenly an entire stretch of continent must be sailed 'round to access. No more need be said.

Ljosalfar: I agree with you on this one. Being able to grow forest on existing Elven improvements makes a lot of sense concerning both flavor and balance. Why should the elves have to tear down unforested improvements just to make way for a bloom spell? For that matter, it should apply to Svartalfar as well. Though a forested city still should not provide the city tile itself with any appreciable bonus beyond what it has already as a city tile. Let's not see a city built on deer in an ancient forest granting 4+ food or any such silliness. Might be difficult to code the game around this, though...

Luchuirp: Storing golems seems a phenomenally bad idea. Imagine your dismay on surrounding a Luchuirp city with two or three defenders only to see dozens of golems spring up and trounce your army with the aid of a few repair spells. The game does not need this new complexity, and the "hidden" nature of such an idea flies in the face of the Svartalfar/Sidar theme of Shadow mana. Golems are meant to be used up and thrown away, not hoarded like Acheron's wealth.

Malakim: While I sympathize that desert affinity is quite possibly as crippling as tundra affinity, one should not forget the simple Scorch spell. This one tiny spell makes it possible to plant a stack of units in enemy territory and give them a virtual instant fortress with the ability to summon sand lions from within. How would one "build" an oasis, anyway? that just doesn't make very much sense to me. Besides, anyone can build a water node for those desert squares that simply must be worked. Leave a buffer of desert squares containing forts to discourage incursions. That works well enough.

Mercurian: Not rightly sure what you are hoping to accomplish with this. Basium is plenty powerful enough already. Having him sanctify nearby tiles, while certainly flavorful, serves little real purpose in-game other than to further annoy the player of Hyborem (of which he does a fine job as it stands). The nature of Basium's summoning already provides an advantage over Hyborem if the builder of the Mercurian gate is willing to sacrifice a sizable city to the Mercurian. This fellow needs no additional help, far as I can see.

At any rate, it is not my intention to insult or anger you, it-ogo, but merely my thoughts on your ideas. As noted, some are good ones. Some are bad. Brainstorming like this makes FFH a better mod for all of us. I know I've had my share of bad ideas, so no hard feelings. Happy Shadowing!

I especially love the Bannor idea. Would be great flavor for the currently pretty bland civ, and make them a lot more formidable. As the others have suggested, I'd expand it to all the cities and merge it with the draft function, making it a random check (based on city size, maybe?) instead of automatic. The capitol would always spawn at least one defender, though.

firstly, I think your ideas are great. I dont agree with all of them but I wont comment on whats already been said and what i agree with. Only one thing you should consider: imagine if you allow forest to be cast in cities this will make the elves uber strong at defending. Just think of those permanent lvl 2 nature summons with 9 or something strength and the additional defense bonus from forest terrain. Alternatively you could change those summons to be weaker or not permament but I like them how they are right now.

I must say I like the luchuirp idea the best. Its realistic and I dont think its game breaking because you still have to build those golems and i cant remember anytime I stopped producing military units because of maintenance cost but instead because I prefer producing buildings and wonders. I still think the Luchuirp are underpowered due to the inabilty of golems to gain experience especially in the early game when its really hard to lvl barnaxus. If they make it to the late game they will eventually become very strong though I cant remember any game where the Luchuirps were dominating. Didnt play them very often but if I did I would just go for archmages and those riflemen but if I could just store them I would definitely find the golem strategy more interesting.

@ it-ogo
Nice :) Of course, some of your ideas are insane (Amurites, Balseraphs, Infernals),

Oh! Then Balseraph Idea is perfect just therefore! :D

The Clan/Diovello barb spawning seems balanced too - it makes them annoying neighbours even if you're at peace with them. Maybe combine this with some way of converting said (non-unique) barbs in your territory for a supply of free units?

As for me it is not so good. Actually it looks like Sheaim mechanism of planar gates but worse. So, it is not enough unique.

I think the Calabim bit might be cool. Not -1 XP per turn, but like the reverse of an adept, so that after 10 turns or so you lose the equivalent of one feast. Then a player wouldn't gift to every unit that was eligible, but save it for an elite few, 1-3 per city.
Yes, that is what i mean.

Although it might not have much of an effect, assuming you feast several turns in a row and spend all the XP at once; no matter how much XP you lose you won't lose promotions
I know. Not really much change in balance. But at least if you will leave that promoted guy for a long time then his next advance will be more problematic. And BTW if you grant vampirism to your high-level spellcasters their time progress will be stopped: two mechanisms neutralise each other.

Idea came from the statements about earthling ;) undead vampires that they ALWAYS feel a strong bloodthirst even if they drunk much and physically unable to drink more. And that make them crazy.

Major negative point of this idea is the following: more micromanagement.

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Wow! Thanks for such an impressive comment! I'll try to answer.


Amurites: They already have plenty of power and flavor if you approach them correctly.
I did not say they have not enough power. I just do not like their gameplay and feel it not enough specific.


Making every unit a caster sounds like a great idea until you're faced with an army of hunters carrying an equally large army of hawks all capable of summoning big, fat elementals to rain destruction down upon your capital.
Well... Hawk-spellcaster is too much even for me. Maybe parrot... :D
Indeed proposed spellcasters are much more difficult to obtain. E.g. casting fireball needs at least level 6 (not 4 like mage), casting 3rd level spell needs at least level 10 (not 6 like archmage). And there is no free promos, so at least 7 of 9 promos gained from level ups should be specifically magic (arcane, sourcery1,2,3; element1,2,3 ) so forget about combat 5 and easy combat XP. This magic has really slow start. I suspect with such conditions Amurites may become UNDERpowered.

Belseraphs:
I am afraid you did not get the idea. Mime promo is passed. So if you killed Acheron by mime unit, unit turns to Acheron but keeps mime promo. And after the next fight you have no more Acheron. It is hard to get but easy to lose. I think overall mime slightly weaken Balseraphs. It is for flavor and for the toy.

Bannor: Of cause - it is only for flavor. Not much advantage.
Calabim: The same.

Clan of Embers: Remember that there is no collecting barbs like on Terra. They spawn and go just providing a few harassment (and XP) for neighbours. There is a small protecting factor against invaders and that is all. Barbs only may be collected if Clan civ occupies full continent. Then barb army may be comparible to the army of Clan - double protection! But that is even more interesting to assault! :)
And again: if Clan grows too strong barbs declare war on it. Surprise!

Doviello: I met several ideas on tundra affinity and my one is not very strong. Well... Let us wait for Ice and hope to be useful for team.

Grigori: Agreed.

Hippus: Having more horses doesn't seem to justify easier withdrawal.
Hmm... I think it should justify at least something. :D
Each soldier can still only ride one horse, after all.
That is not quite true. ;) One of the main reason of unprecedented mobility of Genghis Khan army was active use of several horses per warrior.
And at least in Russian there is a term translated as two-horse-riding. It means riding with two horses from time to time jumping from one to another. Perfect for most important couriers but needs a serious skill.

Adding an affinity makes the already high withdrawal rate of Hippus units even more open to abuse. "My city was attacked by 20 horsemen. Only two of them died."
Mongols were able to run away several times in one battle and finally win. That was their typical tactics. Khoresmean and European knights had no possibility to get enough close to them to abuse. :lol:

Infernals: Think of using this against the poor Khazad. Suddenly an entire stretch of continent must be sailed 'round to access. No more need be said.
There ARE ways to be protected. Just try!

Let's not see a city built on deer in an ancient forest granting 4+ food or any such silliness. As I know income from tile under the city does not depend on tile properties in any way.

Luchuirp: Well... I had no thought that stored golems can be hidden... Thanks for the idea. :crazyeye:
Golems are meant to be used up and thrown away, not hoarded like Acheron's wealth.
Let us leave it up to Luchuirp. Hope they will find it useful. ;)

Malakim: How would one "build" an oasis, anyway?
Errr... artesian well? :p

At any rate, it is not my intention to insult or anger you
Me too. I am happy and inspired! Thank you once more. Happy Shadowing!

I especially love the Bannor idea...
What you say is acceptable IMO. I was hesitating if to suggest it for all cities or only one. Finally i think it is not overpowered even for all Bannor cities with more then let us say 90% of Bannor influence.

Only one thing you should consider: imagine if you allow forest to be cast in cities this will make the elves uber strong at defending. Just think of those permanent lvl 2 nature summons with 9 or something strength and the additional defense bonus from forest terrain.
And Treetop defence spell. I did not think about it. Hmm... But elven cities are forest cities beginning from Tolkien! :)


I must say I like the luchuirp idea the best...
Yes, exactly! My logic and reasons are perfectly the same.

(and the Bannor capital certainly was captured; they capital was Braduk, now "the Burning."
'Captured' isn't exactly the word I'd use for this situation ;)

Thanks for not taking offense to my critiques, first and foremost. And now for my retorts:

As far as the Amurites go, it is entirely possible to own any map through the sheer numbers of fireballs their units can summon. I cannot stress enough how firebows have meant such overwhelming victory for me so many times in that fireballs are units like summons, but carry none of the baggage that summons do. Collateral damage only helps your army of archers own the city in question. You no longer need seige engines. How does that lack flavor or power? I simply don't understand when you guys say that the Amurites are bland. They are quite possibly one of the more flavorful civilizations in FFH, as far as I can see. Perhaps I'm just partial to their mechanics...

What you speak of with raising caster levels would only require more coding on the team's part, and one must ask oneself as a responsible fan of the game: In the end, does this mean a better game? I opposed this idea not because it was inherently bad, but because it seems to add more complexity and coding to an already complex modification of a complex game. At the end of the day, it would only make things more confusing and more complicated than necessary. To paraphrase Kael himself, "Adding complexity in the name of realism does not make a game better..." I am inclined to agree here. The fact remains that Govannon can teach hawks haste, summon skeleton, etc. So it is best to work with the mechanics available to attain a more believable, balanced game. This saves the team work, and it saves us players having to wrap our heads around another reworking of the rules. You also seem to forget the Cave of Ancestors wonder, which is one of the more flavorful aspects of the Amurites? Would you do away with it in the name of more flavor? I find it to be one of their best attributes. As far as Amurites being underpowered, consider the effect on the game of an entire civ, every unit of which can cast death I (summon skeleton). That alone would prove more army than anyone would be prepared to deal with. Nevermind what might happen if in time of war Amurite workers could scorch plains and summon endless sand lions or anything else? Too many units, and too much power for one civ to have.

Concerning the Belseraph mimery, I did get the idea. At the end of that paragraph, I reversed my previous statement that it would be overpowered. At times, it would be too strong, and at times too weak. The idea itself is not a bad one, but too tricky to implement into such a delicate game balance. Yes, my mime who just killed Acheron will lose the promotions when killed by Mr. Joe Warrior, but I've still done the damage, and Mr. Joe Warrior just weakened my unit immeasurably simply by dying at his hands. I like the concept, but don't like the necessary execution of it. Leave it to FF Tactics to deal with mimes. I think they have little place here.

As far as the Bannor trait being only for flavor, why introduce new code and mechanics into a game simply in the name of flavor if such code/mechanics could not do it on their own (which I believe they can)? Hurrying a current tech-level unit with the Bannor still well surpasses the ability for warriors to spawn from their all-but-defeated cities. Would anyone ever actually use this? Would it make for a better gameplay experience in any case? I'm afraid I'd have to answer negatively on both counts.

I won't even touch the Calabim trait here. I've said my piece on that, and it still stands.

For Barbs: I must say I've never thought the Barbarian trait to be a worthwhile expenditure of a trait in a leader. The 10% penalty does not in my opinion make up in any way for the inability to capture Orthus' axe without someone else getting it first or the inability to capture the Dragon's Hoard without someone else getting it first. Though the equipment rules in Shadow supercede this, it is uncertain how they will actually relate to the game at large. I must say I'm still wary to take such a hefty research hit just to rest easy from barbarians, when I could have units out there gaining combat experience from defeating them. I do like the idea of late-game barbarians, but how to implement it well is another story. You're onto something, but I'm not sure the way you've suggested is the best or most balanced for the game in the end.

As for the Hippus, yes, you could use a "Pony Express" rationale for it, but that strikes me as rather sloppy. This is probably more my personal taste than anything mechanical, but it seems to me that the game mechanics for the Hippus work fine the way they are. As it stands, a Hippus player can still have quite a few horse units with 90%(or close to it) withdrawal rate, which means that on average, when 20 attack, only 2 actually die. Increase that withdrawal rate, and things really start to get crazy...

Infernals: Sure, there are ways to be protected. But turning all hills into peaks?! I mean, what happens to cities on hills? Does a player simply lose them? That hardly seems balanced at all. No other spell or ability (even one that utterly destroys the casting unit) has the power to eradicate an entire city. This simply isn't balanced or fair, regardless of coding problems it would most likely present.

Resources under cities do provide a small bonus to the city tile itself. For example: A city built on wheat gains 1 food on its city tile. It's not as much as if you developed the tile in the city's fat cross, but it's something. I just don't want to see forests/ancient forests (which should not be on cities' tiles anyhow, save for the terrain defense bonus, likely to be superceded by a city's cultural defense) providing anything additional to the city in which they have grown. That could lead to even more startling abuses of forests/ancient forests than which the elves are already capable.

Yes, I know of Artesian wells, and while a sound concept, one must question whether an Artesian well would be capable of supporting the variety and quantity of life that could a naturally-occurring oasis. Either way, letting the Malakim create the things would be very unbalancing, as every one of their plains tiles would be scorched to a desert/oasis, which produces far more. Again, good idea, but not fit for the game as a whole.

Perhaps I did not state that many of your ideas do have some merit and believability to them, but simply are not feasible for the game as far as I can tell. More complexity does not make it better. I fell into that trap some time ago with my ridiculous suggestion regarding Great Generals/Great Commanders and the Grigori. Some of the things you have presented would make this a better game for all, and I hope that eventually they are implemented. In the meantime, may our (as the entire player base's) debates over these myriad suggestions spur the team on to new heights of creativity for future patches of our favorite mod.

I'm holding my breath for Sunday...

Amurites
I am a builder-style player. May be that is a problem.

What you speak of with raising caster levels would only require more coding on the team's part, and one must ask oneself as a responsible fan of the game: In the end, does this mean a better game?
That all may be true but see my preface in the first post. I do not consider coding complexity as I am not enough competent in modding mechanisms of civ4. Let the team deside, I just have a pleasure of producing ideas. :)

And, you see, first nation I started FFH with randomly happened to be Kuriotates. I was completely overwhelmed by Sprawling trait - I did not believe such variation could be ever properly coded and balanced. But it was. I did not put any ideas on Kuriotates here just because each time when I recall them I become completely happy of Sprawling and unable to produce ideas.

As far as Amurites being underpowered, consider the effect on the game of an entire civ, every unit of which can cast death I (summon skeleton).
But it is the case now with Govannon, no? And what? :) And BTW last time I checked, skeletons needed fee.

As far as the Bannor ... Would anyone ever actually use this? Would it make for a better gameplay experience in any case?
What is it came from? When I make an invasion against AI with a big army my war usually divided into two phases. 1) I declare war, cross the border and my tough stacks are intensively attacked from all sides. 2) AI spared all its collected army but few city defenders and sit waiting when I am taking his cities one by one.

The second phase was always too boring for me. Approach city, make magic bombardment, kill everybody, repeat. But imagine that people are fanatics and never give up! I kill all the army but they go, go and go (uninjured by bombardment) until there is no city to capture. Scorched land defenders. Surprise! Catarsis! :) And while you spend many time to capture one city they already built a new army!

For Barbs: I do not like to play Clan too. Prefer have them as neighbours. And my suggestion just from that point of view: let their barbs harass me all the time, that will help me not to lose the form in the time of peace.

Infernals: This simply isn't balanced or fair, regardless of coding problems it would most likely present.
You know, Infernals are strongly unbalanced NOW. They are too weak. And therefore too peacefull. Hyborem now is not someone who produce horror and suffer but a humble leader of a small third-world country with bad ecology.

Resources under cities do provide a small bonus to the city tile itself. For example: A city built on wheat gains 1 food on its city tile.
Didn't know!

Yes, I know of Artesian wells, and while a sound concept, one must question whether an Artesian well would be capable of supporting the variety and quantity of life that could a naturally-occurring oasis.
Most natural oasis are grown around a small water source which is used very economically. Artesian well with its strong underground pressure provides much, much more water.

Either way, letting the Malakim create the things would be very unbalancing, as every one of their plains tiles would be scorched to a desert/oasis, which produces far more.
Oasis is 3f2g forever (right?), grassland farm starts from 4f (with agriculture) +1g on the riverside, +1f with sanitation. grassland grown town - 2f4g +1g on the riverside. Lanun coast tile with lighthouse 3f2g (the same!) for Hannah 3f3g. Ancient forest without any improvements 3f1h, with elven town 3f1h4g. Oasis does not look overpowered at all. Not so bad but no more. Actually in most cases I'd prefer spring desert and build cottage then scorch plain and build oasis.

In the meantime, may our (as the entire player base's) debates over these myriad suggestions spur the team on to new heights of creativity for future patches of our favorite mod.
So be it! :)

'Captured' isn't exactly the word I'd use for this situation ;)
... And after the dishonour of Braduk Bannor sworn never more to give up their cities. :p

... And after the dishonour of Braduk Bannor sworn never more to give up their cities. :p

Unless Junil falls through Torrolerial and makes it a hell of Law...

It-ogo... I presume you've seen the changelog for Shadow... Looking very interesting, no? Can't wait to play it. Govannon's a hero now! woot

Lots of interesting changes there, some of which seem vaguely familiar, if not identical to suggestions I swear I've read someplace before... hm...

Just have to wait an entire day now for Shadow's release. Best wishes.

I think that a stored golem shouldn't lose health but while they are stored they should have no defence eg. 6/0. And while they are stored they are invisible, but it should take two, maybe three turns to wake them up again. I think that would be enough to balnce it, if you want to conquor a lurchip city you just have to do it quick...

A change I'd like to see for the Amurites to SLIGHTLY reduce the micro-management is if someone taught by Govannon can then go on to teach other people. Then you don't have to cart your hero around everywhere, but can have your standard city defenders teach any newly built unit.