[TAB]The Svartalfar must get outside their borders to survive, must engage in battle (hopefully without declarations of war or diplomacy hits) and generally cause trouble. The Sidar are the opposite. Comfortable existing only within their borders they are self-sustaining ghosts who are the most dangerous when left alone for centuries to build and grow.

[TAB]The key unit of the Sidar is the Shade. Any Sidar unit that is level 6 or higher can retire and become one. A Shade doesn't have any fighting ability, these are the faint souls that have withdrawn from direct contact with the world for an eternal life of their new profession. As such a Shades can become a Merchant, Bard, Sage or Engineer specialist in any of the Sidar cities.

[TAB]But these specialists are more talented that those of other civilizations. All of their bards produce an additional culture, all of their engineers produce an additional hammer, all of their sages an additional research and their merchants an additional gold. This applies even if they are specialists created through non-Shade means.

[TAB]There are also wonders in "Shadow" that effect specialist production. Sandalphon's favorite is the Great Library, it causes all your Sages to produce +1 research. Likewise the Theatre of Dreams causes all of your bards to produce +1 culture and the Guild of Hammers (the same wonder that founds the guild) causes all your engineers to produce +1 hammer. The doubling wonders (Sylviens Perfect Lyre, Bazaar of Mammon and the Crown of Akharien) are equally powerful in the Sidars hands because they can focus so many specialists in one city. Wonders should be a big part of any Sidar players strategy.

[TAB]This isn’t to say that the Sidar are without their military strengths. They have an assassin unit called a Ghost which can cast the Hide spell. He can travel the world invisibly, only becoming visible when attacking. This is one of the few spells that can’t be cast after attacking, so an attack will at least leave the unit exposed for a turn before he disappears to the ether again.

[TAB]The Sidar hero, Rathus Denmora, shares the ghosts ability to disappear but also starts with the Nether Blade equipment. The Nether Blade gives Rathus (or anyone who kills him and takes it) +2 Death damage and +80% against other heroes. Making Rathus the perfect unit to hunt for other players heroes.

[TAB]Invisibility is also granted by the Sidar’s world spell, Into the Mist. With it all of the Sidar’s combat units become hidden. Making it easy to slip away from bad situations, or to move entire armies into place undetected. The Sidar may seem rare in their ancient cities, but you won’t really know how many there are, or where they are, until you declare war. Incidently in “Shadow” invisibile units still defend cities, so Giant Spiders are back to being great defenders and the Sidar’s world spell doesn’t make them sitting ducks.

[TAB]That’s the Sidar. We wanted to make a civilization that required a different play strategy and offer a new civ to aggressive players (the Svartalfar) and to builders in “Shadow”. Like the Clan of Embers and the Khazad I don’t think they will be that successful if they are played traditionally, but with the right plan they are very effective. In my last game I focused entirely on adepts to try to rush as many units as possible to level 6 to become specialists. I was worried the strategy may be too effective, but it seemed as effective as military rushes (getting the Crown of Akharien in my sage city did ensure I would always be the research leader). I haven’t tried a “Cardith of the Sidar” game yet. We don’t balance based on alternate leaders but it sounds completely broken.

[TAB]The major weakness of the Sidar is their inability to recover from the loss of one of their major cities. With the loss of a city they also loose the great people specialists that were created in that city by Shades, an undoing of their centuries of work. Also just because of their wonder focus Sidar players may find themselves spending a lot of time researching non-military techs that leaves their army lacking (this is what I did in my last game and I got crushed because of it), players will have to make sure to balance their incredible specialist economy with their more practical defensive needs.

edit: added a screenshot for MarioFlag

What about some Sidar screenshots? :mischief:

Wow........

The choice between Svartalfar and Sidar for first shadow game just got harder.

Thanks for all your articles introducing Shadow to the community. I'm very much looking forward to downloading it once I return on Sunday afternoon.
And I guess I'll try the Sidar on my first game, since I'm just a wonder-whore builder type.

shade are ... whoooa !!

and those hints of wonder is...

all this appeal to the builder inside me :)

and to the sneak attack... (after declaring war ..ok)... lot of hidden guys... :)

oh : does hidden allow to enter borders ?? (if you are un-detected, the civ won't know if you are here and cannot interdict you to enter borders... ???)

Sounds like my kind of race. I already don't research the military tech because I'm obsessed with buildings and wonders.

So, do shades join as a "standard" specialist, or like a Great Person specialist? First discussion of them sounded like they are normal, but the last mention sounded like they are equal to a Great Person.

(something I have never been clear on... do Great People specialists eat food from the city, or are they essentially unlimited?)

Oh my. Nice.

Great write-up Kael. These guys are now my new favorite. :)

I added a screenshot to the first post.

Oh yeah im a builder as well :) Imagine a Sidar's city full of specialists, wonders and a thousand slums... ohhhh yeah :P

Regarding the feeding and care of specialists: as I understand it, settled GPs and free specialists do not require feeding. Only citizens assigned to specialist duty need to be fed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming I'm not wrong, yes, this could make an old Sidar city unbelievably powerful, hence the loss of it being a real body blow.

Awesome, I remembered seeing that the Sidar palace used to give extra bonuses to specialists and that made me wonder if they would become a powerful builder civilization. I love both their backstory and these mechanics and my first Shadow game will definitely be with them as my civilization.

Do their priests do anything special (do they even have priests)? And did Sandalphon/Morgoth keep his old traits?

I like this a lot being a builder myself. My only question now is what Morgoth's (or whatever his new name is) traits will be. I'm assuming he's keeping industrious (btw, is this ever getting a boost to forge construction again?), but what else will he have?

Awesome, I remembered seeing that the Sidar palace used to give extra bonuses to specialists and that made me wonder if they would become a powerful builder civilization. I love both their backstory and these mechanics and my first Shadow game will definitely be with them as my civilization.

Do their priests do anything special (do they even have priests)? And did Sandalphon/Morgoth keep his old traits?

No, Sandalphon is an Industrious/Defender.

Finally...

wow these guys sound very flavourfuland unique ... but their hero add weight to my [amurites- a little plan thread] if your playing against the amurites you hunt down gio and kill him, which would hurt them much more than any other civ loosing there hero! ... anyhow cant wait to turtle with these guys!

Fare thee well, my Ljosalfar friends! You have served me well, but I must go now... to embrace immortality!
Guess who I'm playing as when Shadow comes out?

What's that weird fish in the lake?

The Sidar sound like they may be vulnerable to...the Svartalfar!

wow these guys sound very flavourfuland unique ... but their hero add weight to my [amurites- a little plan thread] if your playing against the amurites you hunt down gio and kill him, which would hurt them much more than any other civ loosing there hero! ... anyhow cant wait to turtle with these guys!

Actually, the Amurites are safer from Rathus than most civs. The Nether Blade's +80% bonus is against units with the Hero promotion, not against world units in general. This makes him less effective versus Govannon, Barnaxus, Euabatres, or Abashi than against other civ's heroes.



I like the Sidar from what I read, except that I'm not a fan of calling their assassin UU a Ghost. It makes the Sidar sound like a civ of those already dead, while the Civilopedia made it clear they they are living being that give up portions of their soul to gain immortality. Also, it seems like it would be more appropriate for all of their recon line to have these abilities. I would also like the Shades to have some combat strength (perhaps only on the defense?) and also be hidden. Lastly, I think there should be a sun spell that reveals all hidden units nearby. I like the shades joining cities as great specialists (it better be as great ones, not just ordinary specialists, and the Sidar better get boni from both ordinary and great ones). This may well be one of my favorite civs, as I usually prefer a builder style. (Actually, it already was one of my favorites in my "slightly" modifies version of .25. The changes actually weren't that minor, but I didn't change the Sidar much except to make them playable)

Based on this write-up, the Sidar are the coolest civilization in Fall from Heaven yet.

Could we see a screenshot of some of the arcane units or maybe their hero? They look like they're bald?

....

I'm a little worried that sacrificing all of your high level units will hurt combat effectiveness a lot, but I guess if you make them all into great engineers you can just churn out gobs of low XP units.

...The Nether Blade's +80% bonus is against units with the Hero promotion, not against world units in general....

So, the Nether Blade is the ultimate weapon to bring the Grigori to their knees? :devil:
I'm loving the Sidar more and more...

Fare thee well, my Ljosalfar friends! You have served me well, but I must go now... to embrace immortality!
Guess who I'm playing as when Shadow comes out?
I could not have put it any better. Thanks.

what are the effects of the CoE on the sidar (or has that been tested yet)?

Hm. And I was getting all excited about the Svartalfar, too. The Sidar are definitely more my style. I typically run a builder style of play, though when an enemy has something I need, I play friendly until I can build up a superior army to squish them thoroughly and very quickly. The Sidar certainly fit in with that. Guess my hotseat friend and I will be arm-wrestling over who gets to play them.

Great idea for a Sun spell to reveal hidden units. It should perhaps be a level II spell for balance reasons, but then there are always hawks (hopefully hawks who can rebase to hunters outside of cities) to use for that purpose.

Interesting to see how the Sidar might work with AV in a flavorful sort of way. They trade their souls for immortality, so who's to say that dealing in sinister pacts stops there? Hm... AV builders. Almost a contradiction in terms. Almost.

Raging barbs Sidar games will rock. So many lvl 6 warriors....

Now I don't know if I should play Sidar or Svartlafar first.....

Curses!

I think I will play a game with my civ verses just those two. I would like to see how the AI handles them and then play as them....

So, the Nether Blade is the ultimate weapon to bring the Grigori to their knees? :devil:
I'm loving the Sidar more and more...


Humm I may have to chose the Grigori as my first civ in Shadow....

What's that weird fish in the lake?


For the life of me I dont remember the game, but it looks like the head of that charecter that was enslaved and farted alot for his attack...

I like the Sidar from what I read, except that I'm not a fan of calling their assassin UU a Ghost. It doesn't have to be literal; it could be a name given to them by their enemies.

Does this mean his name change to Sandalphon is final? @_@

For the life of me I dont remember the game, but it looks like the head of that charecter that was enslaved and farted alot for his attack...

Abe from Oddworld!

Abe from Oddworld!


Yep that would be him.... Been quite a long time when I piddled with that game so I could be wildly off target....

Actually, the Amurites are safer from Rathus than most civs. The Nether Blade's +80% bonus is against units with the Hero promotion, not against world units in general. This makes him less effective versus Govannon, Barnaxus, Euabatres, or Abashi than against other civ's heroes.

I think Kael said that he's changing Govannon to have the hero promotion.

I really like the concept of this race...but the bald, overly gray and shoeless units look more like zombies than immortal shadows...kinda out of place?

What's that weird fish in the lake?
I'm pretty sure that's Cthulhu in the lake. Founding the Octopus Overlords spawns Cthulhu into the world, to travel around destroying cities and giving the "Insane" promotion to every unit that gets within 3 tiles of him. He can only be killed by using the Ashen Veil's WorldSpell to summon another Old One from the Far realm to battle him, which completely consumes the city that casts it and spawns eldritch horrors randomly throughout the entire map.

Heh, no seriously, I was wondering about that as well. What's the deal?

I'm pretty sure that's Cthulhu in the lake. Founding the Octopus Overlords spawns Cthulhu into the world, to travel around destroying cities and giving the "Insane" promotion to every unit that gets within 3 tiles of him. He can only be killed by using the Ashen Veil's WorldSpell to summon another Old One from the Far realm to battle him, which completely consumes the city that casts it and spawns eldritch horrors randomly throughout the entire map.

:lol: I wish! :lol:

what unit is the mist-looking thing near the water?

I'm pretty sure that's Cthulhu in the lake. Founding the Octopus Overlords spawns Cthulhu into the world, to travel around destroying cities and giving the "Insane" promotion to every unit that gets within 3 tiles of him. He can only be killed by using the Ashen Veil's WorldSpell to summon another Old One from the Far realm to battle him, which completely consumes the city that casts it and spawns eldritch horrors randomly throughout the entire map.

Heh, no seriously, I was wondering about that as well. What's the deal?

It looks like a Giant Squid, actually.

I really like the concept of this race...but the bald, overly gray and shoeless units look more like zombies than immortal shadows...kinda out of place?

Well, grey skin is a consequence of trading your soul. The scout and warrior are tier 1 units, so it's normal that they have a primitive look. The higher tier units will be more cloacked and clothed, the more they live without soul, the more their psysical presence become abstract, so their skin turn to gray to transparent (ex, the shade have a dark grey transclucide skin) and their units will try to hide their skin with cloth in the higher tiers units.

I guess that makes good sense. Maybe I am looking at it wrong, why are they bald?

is there a check in place to stop the ai turning its heros into shades once they hit lv6+ ?

Oh yes, that check has to be made !!

But certainly they thought about that.

In anyway I actually .. dont like the units-gfx of the sidar, they look kinda ... boring.

I am convinced I will go for the Svartalfar. I actually really love the idea to wage without waging war. This is fitting exactly the play style I developed in my Ljolsalfar Games (Council of Esus ..)

The thing in the lake is Leviathan, a new Barbarian hero.


I personally think that the Sidar tier 1 units should have normal or slightly pale skin, then slowly going to a pale grey and finally transparent like illusions as they go to higher levels.

+1 with the Magister on the grey skin part, except perhaps missing on the grey skin part totally and moving into translucent shadows. They look a lot like zombie priests right now...

Thanks for the Screenshot.

The Art for Sidar is really amazing.

What's that Ghostly figure with a Battle Axe? An Hero or an high tier unit?

Stronger specialists mean natural sinergy with AV. It is much, much better then sacrificing promoted units. Again Sidar priest specialist have no bonus so Altar is not so good for them.

But Sidar and Sacrifice the weak? Brrrr! It is counter-intuitive.

what unit is the mist-looking thing near the water?

the mistform summon :) you should watch him closer when you summoned him and attack, i think he got away nice ;)

The thing in the lake is Leviathan, a new Barbarian hero.


I personally think that the Sidar tier 1 units should have normal or slightly pale skin, then slowly going to a pale grey and finally transparent like illusions as they go to higher levels.

That would be cool, but might be impossible to add

That would be cool, but might be impossible to add

He probably thinks 'as they go to higher tiers', like warrior-axemen-macemen, rather than in xp-based levels.

BTW We no longer have macemen :p

I wonder if the sidar Immortal will get any bonuses so that it is still worthwile to upgrade to one. Besides, if any civ would get special immortals, it would be the sidar.

I wonder if the sidar Immortal will get any bonuses so that it is still worthwile to upgrade to one. Besides, if any civ would get special immortals, it would be the sidar.

Maybe thats the drawback to the extra specialists.....??

Must choose between immortals or specialists.....??

It was said that they were weaker millitarily

I'm thinking the Sidar would be great with OO simply for the Lunatic. Since it has a change to go barb, you disband it, it goes barb automatically and you kill it. Farm your own Lunatics for XP to reach there specialists once you hit the mid game. Since the Sidar are such builders I don't see going to war to be advantageous to them.

The sidar are my new favorite civ. In my most recent game I rushed FoL, beat the elves to it, then got a couple of shades by killing orthus and other barbs. The Fellowship is a good religion for them because (at least the way i'm playing) you can declare war on several enemies and still defend yourself with fawns and werewolves and stuff, and meanwhile be gaining xp and training units to be shades.

EDIT: My capital city has 6 great sages and 6 great engineers in it. ;)

He probably thinks 'as they go to higher tiers', like warrior-axemen-macemen, rather than in xp-based levels.

BTW We no longer have macemen :p

I meant higher tiers at first, but realized it might be misinterpreted as actual levels before I submitted it. I didn't clarify because I though having it be based on their actual level would be much cooler, although much harder to implement.

just played an OCC game as the sidar following the undercouncil, and tbh it's damn powerfull, basically overpowered. Just build your 3 shadows, mask them (hidden nationality), have them kill of enemy/friendly warriors (marksman and hidden, so should be no problem) until they hit 26 exp, send them back to your capital to turn into great engineers, train additional shadows and repeat. I reached well over 100 base production at turn 250 (normal speed) using this tactic (had the guild of hammers wonder though).

just played an OCC game as the sidar following the undercouncil, and tbh it's damn powerfull, basically overpowered. Just build your 3 shadows, mask them (hidden nationality), have them kill of enemy/friendly warriors (marksman and hidden, so should be no problem) until they hit 26 exp, send them back to your capital to turn into great engineers, train additional shadows and repeat. I reached well over 100 base production at turn 250 (normal speed) using this tactic (had the guild of hammers wonder though).

thats easy to do without sidar, especially by turn 250

"well over". mod. production (without overlap) hit a top of around 250, without all tiles being worked and with only 2 specialists running. if you don't trust me, give it a try ;-).

ya, once you start doing endgame tactics its easy to get insane amounts. ive gotten over 1000 science in a single city, and 100 production is pretty minor compared to what is possible.

the hyborem/AV/TowerOfComplacency can get over 200 population easy, and each of those can be engineers.. so i gotta say 100 production, or over 200 production even, is nothing game breaking when you're dealing with compounded endgame tactics.

Can Drowns turn into shades? I just got a level 6 Drown but don't see any option to turn it into a shade.

7. To become Shades, Sidar units have to be alive, and can't be animals or beasts.
Drown are undead and undead are not alive.

aww..all that precious xp wasted. Thanks for the info :)

You know, although Shades are useless in combat they can still cast spells if they have the promotions that allow them. I believe this means that the Sidar effectively have an unlimited number of Archmages and Summoners.

kool news ... :)

That's quite scary, but then, they are shades ;)

Can a shade take any further promotions? If your upgrading stops at the point of turning Shade, then it means it is only really useful for your City Buff mages to be able to pick up 1 or 2 Rank 3 spells as well.

Can a shade take any further promotions? If your upgrading stops at the point of turning Shade, then it means it is only really useful for your City Buff mages to be able to pick up 1 or 2 Rank 3 spells as well.

The point of a Shade is to turn into a Specialist in your city. So a Shade (while I haven't tried to fight with them) is basically already out of combat. Its part of what makes the Sidar weak militarily that they keep handing their best units back to their cities.

Yes, but as Magister pointed out, you can exploit the fact that they keep their spellcasting abilities to grant yourself unlimited Archmages/Summoners.

Shades don't have a unitcombat, so even if they still gain xp (and I'm pretty sure they don't) they will be unable to learn any new spells or get any other promotions for that matter. Still, if you have another mage/conjurer able to be upgraded that you think would be more useful than one of your current Archmages/Summoners then you might as well have an older one wane, but keep him around and use him as if he hadn't changed. (I haven't actually had an Archmage or Summoner wane yet, but I do know that Mages and Conjurers work perfectly when cast by shades.) (Shades cannot attack, but they have a strength of 2 and can defend themselves. That is, unless I made that change myself and forgot about it.)



(p.s. I felt like exploiting this even more, so I gave Sandalphon the a third trait, Arcane, and made shade UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT so they keep learning new spells, and made them permanantly invisible.)

IMO the true power of this is you can have shades with the top tier non-combat spells, as they'll not see action, and replace them with archmages with top-tier combat spells for maximum punch in the field.

You might even be able to get a Law 3 shade (former archmage) in every city for monsterously huge cities. In reality this is pretty unlikely, as you'd really need to focus on developing archmages, and such a narrow focus might gimp you in other ways.

if you launch your adept swarm early, in order to get many shades,
you can expect having much archmage shades late-game.

hop : lvl 6 mage : upgrade to archmage, law III, become shade : all in 2 turns. the archmage slot is empty again.

you won't need a lot of archmages.. .

then upgrade you rangers to druid to gain free xp... then to shade that can summon nature, terraform, boost your units.. ...etc

I like this path :) I wanna BTS !!!! snif