View Full Version : Dream start or too much to chew over?


Winged Monkey
Dec 15, 2007, 09:50 AM
Hi all,

First of all, I just want to send out a big thanks to all the excellent posters in this forum. I haven't posted here since I played C3C, but I've been lurking around since the release of CIV. Having these forums available have made the transition from C3C to CIV incredibly easy. You guys rock!

Anyway, on to my dilemma...

I've been fairly successful on levels all the way up to emperor, playing a warmongering style ( :hammer: ). The human advantage of being able to conduct intelligent warfare, as opposed to the AI's tendency to haphazardly throw troops around, is usually too big an edge for the AI to overcome. Well, at least up to monarch - it's still a bit of hit and miss for me on emperor. So I decided I'd try something different. I've played CIV for some time now, but I've actually never had a cultural win! Reading Godotnut's Guide to Totally Peaceful Deity Cultural Victory (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/peaceful_deity_cultural.php) inspired me to finally try it. I'm playing on emperor difficulty level though, not deity.

On the very first roll on a standard-sized pangea map with standard number of randomly chosen opponents, I got this starting position:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1352/civstartposif2.jpg

Oh boy!

I've included an attempt at a dotmap. Feedback about the selected spots for new cities would be greatly appreciated!

The big predicament here, however, is whether I should go into ultra-REX mode to settle in a circle around my capital early, or if I should play it more slowly, and try to secure the pyramids. I've met 4 AI's so far (Sitting Bull, Tokugawa, Gilgamesh and Hannibal). Except for Hannibal, who came from the east, I have no idea where they are located.

If I follow Godotnut's guide the obvious plan would be to settle blue dot first to get access to stone, and then soon after begin work on the pyramids in London. 2nd city should be able to pump out settlers reasonably quick. I got agriculture from a goody hut, so I'm thinking I'll get Animal Husbandry after Wheel / Masonry, and work a pasturized cow tile and the stone tile; with some extra chopping I could probably turn out settlers/workers at a reasonable rate. Next priority would be red dot. The gold should help finance the rapid expansion. After that I would have to assess where the AI's are coming from and settle to block. Orange/purple dot are likely targets. At least that's my reasoning.

So, what do you guys think? What to do!

Btw, game is BtS, v. 3.13

xanadux
Dec 15, 2007, 10:49 AM
That's a great mix of resources. I would Rex to try to secure them all. It is possible to grab 4 of the 5 early happy resources, and with forges doubling the gems and gold, can increase the happy cap by 6 rather quickly. Add in the 3 calendar resources, and you can have size 14 or 15 cities fairly early without any help from civics.

And you have the health resources for it too, lucky enough to have all 3 grains.

I would make sure to scout more extensively and settle towards whoever is closest. IW earlier than usual because of the jungle. If there is a lot more jungle to the south, that might slow down the AI in that direction, suggesting settling that last (especially since those cities will be slower to develop with the jungle).

futurehermit
Dec 15, 2007, 11:14 AM
I would rex. Getting those gold and gems online asap. Rex til the land runs out. At that point catapults and elephants should take care of the rest.

Winged Monkey
Dec 15, 2007, 11:31 AM
Rex is my initial instinct as well, but keep in mind that I want to win this game via a cultural win! With this start, I'm pretty sure I could win it pretty easily by military means. I guess I want to try and have my cake and eat it too here. Get the pyramids for the strategy reasons outlined in Godotnut's article as well as getting the dots settled. That might be very difficult though! I guess I'll have to scout the area some more and perhaps reassess depending on how close the AI's are...

xanadux
Dec 15, 2007, 12:18 PM
The strategy article you read was for vanilla Civ4. If this is BTS, another possibility to get the religious buildings built quicker is to generate an early Great Prophet and use him to bulb Theology then build the Apostolic Palace, giving you +2 hammers for each religious building of your state religion. Drawback is that you have to keep a state religion, and therefore likely will get some AIs mad at you.

Winged Monkey
Dec 15, 2007, 01:24 PM
The strategy article you read was for vanilla Civ4. If this is BTS, another possibility to get the religious buildings built quicker is to generate an early Great Prophet and use him to bulb Theology then build the Apostolic Palace, giving you +2 hammers for each religious building of your state religion. Drawback is that you have to keep a state religion, and therefore likely will get some AIs mad at you.
Ah, thanks for the advice. I only just recently upgraded to BtS, so a lot of the changed game mechanics are new to me!

xanadux
Dec 15, 2007, 01:45 PM
Also, the AI is much, much, much more likely to attack you in BTS compared to vanilla, and possibly very early if it is an Aggressive leader. You must keep your power above half the leader, and preferably higher.

CivSetä
Dec 15, 2007, 02:33 PM
Nice start. I would build more units to locate AIs immediately and then make final decisions about expansion. With stone I wouldn't hurry pyramids too much, maybe 1-2 settlers out before actually starting it. Your dotmap looks ok, cow+stone first, then cities with gold.

RockTheCazbah87
Dec 15, 2007, 05:46 PM
I like the dotmap. You've got a great starting position there; a nice mix of resources, both strategic and happiness. I'll go with the crowd and say REX.

Have you seen any AIs yet? If you haven't, I'd suggest going to find out.

futurehermit
Dec 16, 2007, 06:54 AM
If you want to win by cultural, still REX and claim your 9 cities (depending on map size). Then focus on getting some religions (confucianism, taoism, islam?). If you are playing BtS try and have a plan for the culture corporations later.

Winged Monkey
Dec 16, 2007, 04:29 PM
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3803/civstartpos2qx3.jpg

I managed to achieve all my short term goals. I've settled in all the spots in my dot map, except green dot, but I have a settler 1 turn away from the spot right now. I also got the pyramids thanks to hooking up the stone early and aggressive chopping.

But.. It didn't come for free. I have seriously, seriously neglected defense. I feel totally naked! I only have one archer in each of my cities. I've had some luck though, since three of my immediate neighbors are currently involved in this imbroglio:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/8792/civstartpos3wb7.jpg

:D

The second problem is culture. As you can see from the first screenshot, several of my cities are under heavy cultural pressure. Seeing as they're also lightly defended, I'm faced with tough choices between cultural infrastructure and defensive units. My current plan is to maximize growth in my border cities and quickly whip a library in them, and let my 2-3 good production cities take care of defensive units for them.

The third problem is science. Luckily, it's not as big a problem as I feared though:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5521/civstartpos4gs3.jpg

Hopefully, parity should be easily achieved.

The fourth problem, is the religion situation:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8553/civstartpos5rm7.jpg

Two of my immediate neighbors (Tokugawa and Mao) have adopted Judaism, while the current leader, Sitting Bull, have adopted Confucianism. Tokugawa is REALLY close, and seeing as he is a bit, uhm, unstable, a conversion to Judaism is mighty tempting. Both he and Sitting Bull are warring though, so I'm currently sitting on the fence. Another thing is, I have absolutely no idea how prone to warring Sitting Bull is. Any input there?

EDIT: I'm a bit ashamed for some stupid worker moves that can be seen in the first screenshot!

EDIT 2: The sickness in Hastings (Edit 4) is because some asshat AI decided to poison the waters. :mad:

EDIT 3: Man, the warmonger in me is seriously itching to bring some :hammer: to Toku!

The_Reckoning
Dec 16, 2007, 06:22 PM
Seeing as how you have gold and are on the way to Aesthetics, maybe just build Paya [in a secure border city, for the culture victory, like Hastings?], and switch to Free religion ASAP? Would save you the headaches from not having your +1 happy from a religion and the choice of switching to one.

Winged Monkey
Dec 16, 2007, 06:35 PM
Seeing as how you have gold and are on the way to Aesthetics, maybe just build Paya [in a secure border city, for the culture victory, like Hastings?], and switch to Free religion ASAP? Would save you the headaches from not having your +1 happy from a religion and the choice of switching to one.
Ooh, hadn't thought about that. My main plan for aesthetics was simply just trade value, but with the gold hooked, I should be able to build Paya before anyone else even if I trade it immediately. Or, well, after Hastings recovers from the poisoned waters! ( :mad: )

TRJS
Dec 16, 2007, 06:36 PM
Sitting bull is not overly aggressive and would make a more pliant trading partner. As will Gilgamesh.

I'd be more concerned with Hannibal as he is very attacking and can tech well given the chance.

Recommend defence first then culture. You will have warning if a city is potential for flipping and more units can stop this.

You will have less warning if someone brings a nice stack up and wipes you off the map.

Hannibal also has researched HBR, if he has horses aswell I would be concerned.

Winged Monkey
Dec 16, 2007, 06:48 PM
Sitting bull is not overly aggressive and would make a more pliant trading partner. As will Gilgamesh.

I'd be more concerned with Hannibal as he is very attacking and can tech well given the chance.

Recommend defence first then culture. You will have warning if a city is potential for flipping and more units can stop this.

You will have less warning if someone brings a nice stack up and wipes you off the map.

Hannibal also has researched HBR, if he has horses aswell I would be concerned.
Hmm. That makes Judaism even more tempting. The cost is obviously losing favor with Sitting Bull and Gilgamesh, but in this setting, I think I have to prioritize keeping the peace. If Sitting Bull and Gilgamesh are unlikely to start religious wars, Judaism might be a necessary choice here...

EDIT: Does having a state religion impact the chance of other religions spreading to your civ?

Phrederick
Dec 16, 2007, 07:35 PM
EDIT: Does having a state religion impact the chance of other religions spreading to your civ?

Nope. Just maximize the number of cities without any religions, and get trading routes available (little three-arrow circle by the scoreboard in the lower right).

futurehermit
Dec 17, 2007, 08:30 AM
I doubt you will win a cultural war with China and would recommend them as a target (war elephants and catapults). Japan and Carthage you should be able to culture-push. Build culture infrastructure in those cities, run artists, yadayada.

Once China gets pavilions though you will be hard-pressed to push on them so I would suggest them as a target.

Charou
Dec 17, 2007, 09:58 AM
Archers are priority right now.
You are too tempting a target .

You don't have a production city besides your capital.
Nottingham would make a good one. why put some cottages ?
+ doesn't really the culture. building a library in everycity is a waste in the early game.
by the way, What year is it on the screenshots ?)

Monuments would have been a much better investment if you need to resist culture push. (since you put some hammers in too late to change)
In the midterm, drama (culture slider ) or Caste system would be some good relief.

xanadux
Dec 17, 2007, 09:59 AM
You better develop your military and do it quickly. With the pressed borders with Toku and Hannibal, war will come. It is only a matter of time.

Since you have no metal, I would suggest construction and HBR for war elephants and catapults.