I know I already posted this exact same thing in the shadow changelog thread, but it immediately got buried and I think it's important, so here it goes again.

Even with blitz drill is no strong enough to warrant going down that path. A unit with drill four will lose to a comparable unit with combat four a vast majority of the time and it is even more unbalanced at the lower levels. Drill is good for swatting weak units, but by just swatting weak units is hard to gain enough experience to be able to swat weak units :crazyeye:

Playing around in the world builder, when one warrior has combat one the other warrior has to have drill four to break even.

I would recommend making drill one +2 first strike, drill two +2 first strike, drill three +3 first strike, and drill four +3 first strike. Not +x first strike chances, just strait out +x first strikes, the first strike chances are just annoying. Obviously some balance testing would be needed, but drill has to be improved or there is no point in getting it.

So, what do you guys think, should drill be boasted up as all other promotions in FFH were, or is there a reason it is so weak?

as far as i know, drill was never ment to use versus units of the same strenght. it's ment to reduce damage taken by fighting multiple weaker units (looking at the combat odds). having 10 first strikes would be very overpowered AFAIK

I've always considered Drill to be something to invest in after a few Combat promotions. It makes a unit exponentially stronger the stronger the base unit is because of all the extra attacks. So I definitely go down the line but only after a couple of Combat promotions first.

Blitz however is something I don't go for unless I have nothing else to go for. I've found that unless its on a Hero the blitzing unit is so damage he almost never gets a second attack anyways. Though things are certainly going to be different with how promotions have been weakened. No more safety in 99% combat odds for heroes.

Drill is great, especially for units on the defensive - they can take more attackers down!

Drill has much less importance with units with lower combat strength. on really high strenght units, enough first strikes can possibly kill something before combat even begins because more damage is dealt per strike, while on lower strength units there are so many rounds in combat it dosnt do much

Even for a defensive position combat four and march allow you to heal really fast and allow you to counterattack while still being able to heal and allows you to take out the tougher units as well.

Maybe drill not kill unit, but it can make important damage to enemy unit, when you can take it down with another unit.
Now, after playing several years civ3, civ4 and ffh(yes, i count it out of civ4) i understand how important drill really is.

For me drill in FFH is weaker the in vanilla civ, compared to other promotions.

In vanilla civ combat I and drill I for the equal fresh units give compared total power, with little bonus to combat I, but in FFH combat I is must stronger then drill I for equal units, so drill is only usefull for really strong units againist weak ones...

perhaps drill III/4 should give immunity to fear?

Drill is also good for suicide catapults when you want to take a chunk out of a powerful stack defender way above any units in your league. Good for countering archer defenders first strikes. But thats probably playing the Charlemagne scenario talking.

Drill is now required for Blitz.
I don't think it is completely useless but it does need a bit of a boost, at least Drill 1 and maybe Drill 2.
How do first strikes actually work? Does first strike mean there will ALWAYS be at least some damage done to the other unit?

Yes, but some drill promotions say "first strike chance". I'm not sure if the chance is 50% or what exctly. The first two promotions could use another FS chance or so, imo.

err, uh, I mean what they said ;)

first strikes gives chances to damage the other unit "first", without that unit being able to retaliate,in extreme cases without being damaged at all itself.
other advantages-
can kill while defending vs units with 100% withdrawl
(first strikes can't be withdrawn from)
resist seige effects, and reduce damage to other units
(reduces collateral, not sure the exact effect)

perhaps drill could leave the unit with a % of the strength it lost? up to 25% maybe, then it will have huge synergy with blitz, without increasing it's initial effectiveness

drill with the goal of blitz would be very very disirable

Nope. It's quite simple once you understand the way the combat system functions - combat works in rounds (the result of each of which is printed to the combat log). The units' strengths (modified by promotions, abilities, terrain defence etc etc) are compared, and a random number generated to determine which wins the round - if the modified strengths are equal it's a 50-50 shot, if one unit has twice the modified strength of the other it has a 66% chance of winning the round, and so on. The winner then does damage to the loser which is also dependent on its strength, reducing its hitpoints (which start at 100). If the loser is at 0 it dies, else another round is fought (barring withdrawals). This continues until one unit emerges victorious.
If one unit has more first strikes than the other at the start of combat, that many rounds are fought in which the first striking unit cannot take any damage, regardless of whether it wins the round or not - free shots at the enemy, effectively. This explains why they're of little use if you're much weaker than your opponent - a couple of free shots doesn't mean much if you've only got a 5% chance of hitting the enemy. However, for a unit with some strength advantage, they can be extremely useful - if your overall odds of winning a round are, say, 66%, you're likely to take less damage if you get a first strike or two in, because you get to kill the enemy unit more quickly. For a single mano a mano combat Drill is worse than Combat, yes, but if you're likely to be fighting a number of combats against units somewhat but not massively weaker than you - an archer defending a city against a horde of barbarian orcs and goblins, for instance - they can make all the difference to your overall survivability.

Yes, but some drill promotions say "first strike chance". I'm not sure if the chance is 50% or what exctly. The first two promotions could use another FS chance or so, imo.

err, uh, I mean what they said ;)

Chance for first strike is 50% (forgot where it's referenced, but I know it is). So with Drill I-IV, you have 3-6 First Strikes, which means 4.5 actual First Strikes on average. Since Combat I-V is double strength in FfH, Drill could probably use some buffing, as well. At least, I'd make it (+1, +1, +2, +2) First Strikes, meaning Drill IV would always give you 6 First Strikes. It's no more powerful than a lucky roll currently, but still much more likely to be useful.

I agree with Aragane - they buffed the combat promos, why not the drill promos too?

perhaps drill III/4 should give immunity to fear?

I don't like the idea of making the units automatically immune to fear, but I think these promotions would be awesome if tied in to the the yet-to-be-added Morale mechanic. Each level would boost the unit's morale, and higher morale would mean a higher chance to overcome Fear.

In principle, since all the promotions were strengthened, so should drill. The question is, of course, how. Giving a lot of first strikes may not be the best idea, because then high strength hero units with lots of drill promotions will be practically invincible (do you really want the 4 horsemen to have 11 first strikes?)? But if this is then balanced by "immune to first strike", then it becomes lame. That, or maybe it gives mounted units a purpose, but then horse archers are too weak and the others are limited to 3 units, which makes a dogpile impossible against a very strong unit.

In a nutshell, I have no ideas that make any sense. This is a difficult question.

As for blitz, I'm not too sure why it's left to the end of the tech tree. The combat system doesn't really favour using strong units to repeatedly attack weak units anyway. Designers would know, but is it because vampires will really abuse blitz?

In vanilla BtS it also gives protection from collateral damage.

Maybe remove drill IV and boost Drill 1-3 so you only need 3 promotions to reach same amount of 1st strikes?

Perhaps adding a 10% withdrawal chance to each level of drill?

Hmmm, I'm a bit reluctant to adding withdrawal, there are already separate promotions for it.

defence from collateral damage would work, aswell as maibe additional bonusses to certain unit types? (drill 1=+10% melee, 2 +10% mounted, 3 +10% archery, 4 +10% disciple? or in a different order, or 20% instead of 10, i dunno)

actually i think it does give resistance to collateral right now, it's just not listed
(i had problems with catapaults vs archers way long ago)

Will start working on promotion mod (a balancing and an adding) when I get my new computer (probably in a week). My other one broke.

defence from collateral damage would work, aswell as maibe additional bonusses to certain unit types? (drill 1=+10% melee, 2 +10% mounted, 3 +10% archery, 4 +10% disciple? or in a different order, or 20% instead of 10, i dunno)

I like this idea, but it kind of replaces shock, cover, and formation.

Perhaps just increasing the number of first strike chances, but not actual first strikes?

I like this idea, but it kind of replaces shock, cover, and formation.

Perhaps just increasing the number of first strike chances, but not actual first strikes?

I really don't like this for an actual buff, which is why I put the opposite. Since first strike chances are 50%, over the long run, each 2 first strike chances = 1 first strike. So if you went from 3-6 first strikes to 3-19 first strikes, you're essentially giving 11 first strikes through the game.

On the other hand, if you always give units 6 first strikes instead of 3-6 you get both effects that are wanted. You're giving a buff for 75% of the battles, but the maximum power hasn't changed. There's a chance for you to get 6 first strikes with drill IV already, so why not just make it more consistent?

I agree with Aragane - they buffed the combat promos, why not the drill promos too?

Exactly. It just makes sense.

The combat promos were doubled. From +10% to +20%. Putting aside the larger debate about whether combat or first strikes are better overall, at the very least the Drill line should be likewise doubled.

Currently the promos are:

Drill 1: 1 first strike chance
Drill 2: 1 first strike and -20% collateral damage
Drill 3: 2 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage
Drill 4: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +10% vs. mounted units

So a simple answer is to just double the first strikes:

Drill 1: 2 first strike chances
Drill 2: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage
Drill 3: 4 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage
Drill 4: 4 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +20% vs. mounted units

So if you get 4 drill promotions you'd have 6 first strike chances and 6 first strikes. If, as people are saying, a chance is 50% then that would be 9 first strikes. A very nice bonus. But more than +80% strength? I dunno. Worth trying I think.

As mentioned before, Drill is useful for already powerful characters, which in many cases will be heroes or national units. Almost all players will favour Combat upgrades first, but once maxed Dril is the next option for a broad improvement in combat strength.

To just double the bonus without looking at likely impact could open up problems - would powerful units and heroes be able to kill countless weaker units at will? Back at Civ 1 top units could just go around killing everything (who remembers the joy of being the first to get a battleship?). The hit point system evened that out - strong units can get taken down by hordes. Having 9 first strikes could make one unit rampages a bit too easy.

We have to remember that the increasing of other combat bonuses while retaining the same number of hitpoints automatically makes getting first strikes more powerful. It just becomes less attractive as a beginning option.

Maybe remove drill IV and boost Drill 1-3 so you only need 3 promotions to reach same amount of 1st strikes?

I agree, seems to be the most reasonable way to fix it. Right now the problem is that drill 1-2 don't give enough first strikes to make it worth it. This makes you wait till drill 3 to really start benefiting from the promotion.

How about changing it to:
Drill I: +1 first strike, +1 first strike chance
Drill II: +2 first strike chance, -20% collateral damage
Drill III: +2 first strikes, -20% collateral damage, +10% vs mounted units

If I remember correctly this won't change the final number of bonuses. I think the final result is powerful enough, 3-6 first strikes with -40% collateral is quite powerful on a hero/high xp unit who already has combat V. Such a unit is extremely difficult to mob with low xp units, since most of them would die before even getting a chance to damage it.

As some have already pointed out, first strikes and blitz are only useful if a unit is stronger than its opponent. Therefore I have no problem with drill being a promo to take after some combat promos. A low lvl unit wouldn't be strong enough to take advantage of first strikes and multiple attacks anyway.

The fundamental problem with drill is that as it is it is useless on normal otherwise unprompted units, but if it was increased it would be overpowered on already promoted national and hero units. Reconsidering now I think the only way to even it out is to get rid of it or to have it be less effective the more powerful you are. EverNoobs idea would work okay too, it is better them what drill is currently.

As mentioned before, Drill is useful for already powerful characters, which in many cases will be heroes or national units. Almost all players will favour Combat upgrades first, but once maxed Dril is the next option for a broad improvement in combat strength.AFAIK, all units are not allowed to get drillIV... only archer and siege units can, other may be allowed drill I or II but no more. So most heros (mounted, druidic, melee...Etc) won't have drill at all. (if un-classified heros can get it, maybe it shall be fixed)

IMO Heroes are not the issue to seek. archer heroes cannot have city attack, they can get drill : no issue, melee heroes can get city attack : +30% ..

drill was somehow equivalent to combat in vanilla.
in FfH drill is weakened :
-not doubled as combat line
-2 first strike is easy to get for all units (not reserved to archer line) chaos blade + treetop defense ; Drill I is weaker than 2spells !!! while combat 1 : +20% is still equal to enchanted blade.
-shadow spell blur negats all 1st strikes !!! 1 spell, lvl 1 negats 4 promo with only cost : 1 promo for 1 unit in the stack!!
- as for vanilla horse archers are immune to 1st strike

Drill should be boosted, blur reduced
blur :
- negates : ... 1- 2-3 1st strike, not all
or : 30% against archers

Drill :
-no more 1st strike chance :
Drill 1: 1 first strike chance ==> 1 1st strike
Drill 2: 1 first strike and -20% collateral damage ==> 2 1st strike + coll
Drill 3: 2 first strike chances and -20% collateral damage ==> 2 1st strike + coll
Drill 4: 2 first strikes and -20% collateral damage and +10% vs. mounted units ==> 3 1st strike + coll + vs mounted
==> not doubled but improved.

or maybe add a small withdrawall, or a small bonus defense, or make them all give +10% combat strength + the drill promo. (or +5%)

(and saying that a unit with high strength, unique, spending 9 promo shouldn't be very powerful is bizarre ... 9 promo is all free promo of a hero, and you won't give him march, heroic strengh, fear (if undead), mobility, city attack...etc you spent all your 101xp on this (combat V + drill IV). it is a huge investment !! making so that small units can't mob the hero : why not. at that time the enemy should have at least : meteors to smack you hero, or iron-upgrade units : a 10 str mace with combat V is not a "low level unit". even a 10 str mace is not a low level unit until you have the tier III heros. upgraded at 101xp.

that mean that 4 macemen can kill a hero, even with combatV, drillIV. what is the issue ?
and if you don't have mace or enough firepower when the enemy can have heros with combat V drill IV, what where you doing ?? (4 maces to kill a hero (not replacable) with 101xp or defending with 4 longbows with city defense or drill in a city is not harder than 5-6 warrior to kill orthus in early game, and orthus is callded too easy to kill !!)

How about keeping the current number of first strikes but actually recalculating combat odds after the first strikes are done? This would seem a tad more realistic too, as the wind tends to leave you with a bodkin arrow sticking through your thigh.

AFAIK, all units are not allowed to get drillIV... only archer and siege units can, other may be allowed drill I or II but no more. So most heros (mounted, druidic, melee...Etc) won't have drill at all. (if un-classified heros can get it, maybe it shall be fixed)

IMO Heroes are not the issue to seek. archer heroes cannot have city attack, they can get drill : no issue, melee heroes can get city attack : +30%

Currently, drill is open to other unit types as well. I'm positively sure for mounted units, but I heard it's now available to melee units too.


(and saying that a unit with high strength, unique, spending 9 promo shouldn't be very powerful is bizarre ... 9 promo is all free promo of a hero, and you won't give him march, heroic strengh, fear (if undead), mobility, city attack...etc you spent all your 101xp on this (combat V + drill IV). it is a huge investment !! making so that small units can't mob the hero : why not. at that time the enemy should have at least : meteors to smack you hero, or iron-upgrade units : a 10 str mace with combat V is not a "low level unit". even a 10 str mace is not a low level unit until you have the tier III heros. upgraded at 101xp.

that mean that 4 macemen can kill a hero, even with combatV, drillIV. what is the issue ?
and if you don't have mace or enough firepower when the enemy can have heros with combat V drill IV, what where you doing ?? (4 maces to kill a hero (not replacable) with 101xp or defending with 4 longbows with city defense or drill in a city is not harder than 5-6 warrior to kill orthus in early game, and orthus is callded too easy to kill !!)

Macemen and especially archmages come fairly late in the game. IMO having to rely on meteors to kill a hero means that first strike is powerful. Some of the heroes can be had much earlier than macemen and archmages.

For example, in my current Grigori game, my 2nd adventurer is a horseman with combat V, heroic strength II, drill IV, commando. He has 4-8 first strikes!! He chewed up city defenders like no tomorrow, rarely taking light damage (most of the time taking no damage at all) attacking cities with no siege equipment. Lets not even talk about combat outside cities :p

How about keeping the current number of first strikes but actually recalculating combat odds after the first strikes are done? This would seem a tad more realistic too, as the wind tends to leave you with a bodkin arrow sticking through your thigh.

True, it would make it more realistic. On the other hand I think it would make it too powerful. Heroes/high xp units would be simply impossible to kill without immunity to first strike, then add blitz to that... :eek:

How about you just kill heroes with units that have immunity to first strikes? I think the problem really lies with the very early heroes getting the drill promos. Perhaps putting the promotions further down the tech line? I.E. require military strategy for Combat IV, V, Drill III & IV?

well : I forgot about grigori ... :)

second : having a "powerful" hero with all the promo you presented asks for some big time / farming. (you have more than 9 promo : more than 101 xp) (for my game it means easily 200th turn... as amurite I would already have govannon with fireIII, as khazad, already macemen).
maybe just the tier I heros are broken .? because having tier II-III heros with 101xp + all your boni xp means that ennemy has powerful units ) (and your hero : combat V, heroic strength II, drill IV, commando ..replace drilIV by city attack IV.... it chews defenders at the same rate, with no more issues of loosing health).

third : a unit, with fairly well base strength and 9 promotion should be hard to kill !! needing maces or archmage is normal.

maybe you should ask the question if Combat promo is not a bit too big...
think about it : promotion wise, combat 1-5 is enourmous. you get +20% per promo + healing rate for combat IV & V. don't you think the +100%str combined with an already bigger base str is what makes the combo broken??

and maybe drill III and IV (maybe even drill II) should once again be restricted to the archer and siege lines, and maybe to the recon line. instead of crippling a promo line that is already understrengthed save in combos.

and if you really want, there is an adept level spell that is called "blur, the immunity to 1st strike" that cripples the line even more but helps fighting those +100% strength monsters.

or you can negate 1strikes with having drill promotion yourself...

Simply not a promotion tree I ever go for, doesnt have the general power of combat / or the effectiveness of shock / garrisson trees.

i think it would easily be worth increasing to:

Drill 1 = 1 first strike,
Drill 2 = 2 first strike chances ,
Drill 3 = 1 first strike, 25% less collateral damage
Drill 4 = 1 first strike, 25% less collateral damage, +25% vs mounted, (allows Blitz promotion)

I think I would still go for city garrison for most of my bog standard archers, but might throw in the odd one with Drill if he has a couple of levels from the get go.

Drilling is practicing. So perhaps instead of adding more 1st strikes, maybe make them a little better in other things (except strength to differentiate it). Increase the units 1st strike (keep same), withdrawal, reduce collateral. But only a little with each.
Drill 1: FS + Reduced Collateral
Drill 2: FS + Withdrawl +10%
Drill 3: FS + Withdraw +10%
Drill 4: FS + +1 Move (synergy with blitz)

These then reflect that the unit is practicing and drilling as a 'unit'. They learn to fight together, protecting their friends (reduced collateral), cover each other during controlled retreats (withdrawals) and formation marching. The first strikes show their training and skills in handling their weapons.

I like the idea of a withdraw chance or immunity to collateral damage. Actually, immunity to all non-targeted damage (Crush and other Stack Attacks) would make this line almost priceless when you get to the later game mechanics.

I just thought it would be useful to look at combat odds and remaining hitpoints for combat I-V vs Drills. I used http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm. Attacker and defender have the same base strength. The 1st number is the odds of the attacker winning. The 2nd number is the average remaining hit points after combat, if the attacker wins.

Highlighted in green is the 95% victory point, for easy reference
Highlighted in red is the 95% victory point at which it is better to take a first strike promotion instead of a combat promotion, in terms of remaining hit points after combat.


Current First strike promo

0 Drill I Drill II Drill III Drill IV Commando
C 0% 0.500 49.2 0.534 50.7 0.603 53.8 0.666 58.0 0.783 66.8 0.833 71.7
o P 20% 0.729 49.3 0.756 51.2 0.807 55.1 0.845 60.0 0.914 70.2 0.939 75.5
m r 40% 0.889 53.5 0.900 55.6 0.923 60.0 0.940 65.2 0.972 75.6 0.981 80.6
b o 60% 0.956 66.3 0.964 68.6 0.977 73.4 0.983 78.6 0.994 87.7 0.997 91.5
a m 80% 0.971 69.2 0.976 71.5 0.986 76.1 0.989 81.1 0.997 89.6 0.998 93.1
t o 100% 0.991 72.8 0.993 75.0 0.996 79.4 0.997 84.0 0.999 91.6 0.999 94.6
120% 0.994 76.9 0.996 78.8 0.998 82.7 0.998 86.7 0.999 93.2 0.999 95.8

Proposed First strike promo

0 Drill I Drill II Drill III Commando
C 0% 0.500 49.2 0.603 53.8 0.666 58.0 0.783 66.8 0.833 71.7
o P 20% 0.729 49.3 0.807 55.1 0.845 60.0 0.914 70.2 0.939 75.5
m r 40% 0.889 53.5 0.923 60.0 0.940 65.2 0.972 75.6 0.981 80.6
b o 60% 0.956 66.3 0.977 73.4 0.983 78.6 0.994 87.7 0.997 91.5
a m 80% 0.971 69.2 0.986 76.1 0.989 81.1 0.997 89.6 0.998 93.1
t o 100% 0.991 72.8 0.996 79.4 0.997 84.0 0.999 91.6 0.999 94.6
120% 0.994 76.9 0.998 82.7 0.998 86.7 0.999 93.2 0.999 95.8



# of first strike
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A 0% 0.500 49.2 0.568 52.1 0.637 55.4 0.703 59.3 0.764 63.8 0.818 68.9 0.863 74.3 0.901 79.6
t B 20% 0.729 49.3 0.782 53.0 0.831 57.2 0.872 61.8 0.907 67.0 0.934 72.8 0.955 78.6 0.970 84.0
t o 40% 0.889 53.5 0.910 57.7 0.935 62.3 0.955 67.3 0.970 72.6 0.980 78.3 0.988 83.8 0.992 88.6
a n 60% 0.956 66.3 0.971 70.9 0.982 75.8 0.989 80.9 0.994 86.2 0.996 90.9 0.998 94.4 0.999 96.7
c u 80% 0.971 69.2 0.981 73.7 0.990 78.5 0.994 83.4 0.996 88.5 0.998 92.7 0.999 95.8 0.999 97.7
k s 100% 0.991 72.8 0.995 77.2 0.997 81.6 0.998 86.2 0.999 90.8 0.999 94.5 0.999 96.9 0.999 98.4
120% 0.994 76.9 0.997 80.7 0.998 84.7 0.999 88.6 0.999 92.7 0.999 95.8 0.999 97.8 0.999 98.9


I only added 120% bonus and commando to extend the table. Note that the % modifier is the +% compared to defender. Therefore a +40% is 14 attacker modified strength vs 10 defender modified strength. It would seem that the magic number is 60%. As long as one has +60% modifier, ie: attacker ~3 levels higher than defender, first strikes starts to be better than an extra combat promos, as it further increases remaining hit points after battle. Currently, there is no advantage going from no Drill to Drill I. It's only advantageous to take extra Drill promotions after Drill I. Therefore I propose to merge the current Drill I and II, into a single promotion giving 1-2 first strikes. That way, once you've reached +60% you can start benefitting from Drill right away. Hmmmm I hope my calculations were right :scan:

I just thought it would be useful to look at combat odds and remaining hitpoints for combat I-V vs Drills. <SNIP>

This is great work evernoob. Now I know too take Drill after taking Combat III.

So what changes with the dance of blades spell promo? Does this improve Drill I to the point that its better to have than it is currently?

So what changes with the dance of blades spell promo? Does this improve Drill I to the point that its better to have than it is currently?

I don't think it changes much, you still need a strong unit to take advantage of dance of blades properly. As far as I know it still only gives +1 first strike for a single turn, so is still pretty weak. If it gave +2 first strikes, or stayed permanent, it might be useful then.

Yes the dance of blades spell does, but there is also a combat promo spell (enchanted blade) so although spells should be counted on a game by game basis they shouldn't be counted on for the entire mod.

Great work EverNoob, I really hope Kael goes with your changes, they simply extend what drill is supposed to do making it a bit more viable.

I'm still hoping that drill will be an important part of the new morale mechanic (and that this mechanic gets added in .31).

How about each first strike has a (small chance) of causing the attacker to withdraw, thus canceling the attack?

Too elaborate on my last.... Archers and Siege weapons are both defensive units... true they can be used as attackers but melee and fireballs are so much better.

By causing the attacker to withdraw with each First strike chance you are increasing the defensive capabilities of Drill without enhancing the Gilden/Rosier Super-hero "exploit"

Also a 2xp Drill 1 archer now has a (small chance) of delaying (but not killing)the Str 4 combat V City attack 3 city killer thats been single handedly taking you empire to bits. Something that a 2xp combat 1 or City garrison 1 Archer could never do.

It also works well for mounted units caught in the open... they would now have the chance to delay their attacker thus allowing them an escape or counter-attack.

Thus Drill-I-IV now has a valid defence function within or outside a city, whilst not over-powering or simulating other promotions

I just noticed something. When attacking cities, my combat V, drill IV axeman gains 2xp per battle, while my other axeman with combat V, city raider III only gains 1xp per battle despite being lower level. Then I remembered that xp gain is dependent on attacker/defender strength ratio.

That highlights another benefit of drill, it allows you to increase your combat odds without decreasing your xp gain.

The problem is that like some other combat promotions, Drill's strength was not improved in FFH, unlike Combat. So now Combat is more valuable. I think Combat promotions are too unbalancing, and they should be changed back to 10%, maybe allowing the Combat 6 (+25% strength) to Heroes. This would work better than increasing Drill's strength, IMO.

No don't nerf the other promotions, just add the morale mechanic! The most logical bonus for drill is a morale boost; these promotions would become essential when fighting superior foes not because it makes the unit any stronger, but because it make the unit able to attack, instead of refusing to fight. The Fear mechanic should be changed to be a function of morale in addition to the units strength, so that demoralized troops will refuse to attack stronger enemies, even those without "Fear" or "Dragon." Drill would be essential to keep your armies fighting, and would help you stand up to Armageddon heroes and beasts better.

Great point There MC, that would be the perfect solution.

Yes, yes it would :) Great solution

It also makes some sense for archer troops - I'd be much happier fighting a superior enemy if several hundred yards away while the melee troops cower in fear in between

Great point There MC, that would be the perfect solution.

I don't see how it can be a solution at all, let alone a perfect solution. Drill and other promotions would still remain suboptimal to Combat, you would only give them to cannon fodder so that they can soften up strong enemies, and finish them with your combat 5 units. Your stronger units won't need a morale boost. And don't get me started about teaching YET ANOTHER mechanic to the AI. Combat mechanics should be simplest possible for the AI to make effective use of them. The perfect and most balanced solution is already in Civ4.

How about if units gained 1-4 free XP whenever upgrading with a Drill promotion? Seems kind of consistance with the implied extra practicing.

I don't see how it can be a solution at all, let alone a perfect solution. Drill and other promotions would still remain suboptimal to Combat, you would only give them to cannon fodder so that they can soften up strong enemies, and finish them with your combat 5 units. Your stronger units won't need a morale boost. And don't get me started about teaching YET ANOTHER mechanic to the AI. Combat mechanics should be simplest possible for the AI to make effective use of them. The perfect and most balanced solution is already in Civ4.

here here

i think the primary issue with fixing drill should be short term ... addressing the balance - about making it suitable for use in the game, not making it a cool new toy to play with.

but hey ... discuss away, gotta attract Kael's attention somehow!

I find it amusing that people are talking about an unimplemented mechanic in the design stages as if they know PRECISELY how it would work, and that their Combat V units will still be quite happy to attack with pitiful morale.

Mind, the bit about teaching another mechanic to the AI is quite valid; I simply found the concept of discussing mechanics that are in the design stages in /any/ form of absolute to be utterly silleh.

Incidentally, while there's no guarantee that it would work as such here, obviously, in most games I've seen that have morale, losing units /lowers/ it. So Drilling up peons to soften up an enemy then sending them in like cannon fodder, in those games, will get your morale tanked to the point of units being ineffective. But that strikes me as a highly difficult thing to implement here. Perhaps if it accounted for allied losses in a 2 tile radius, so splitting the stack isn't even more useful..

Alot of people seem to be in favour of major changes when only minor tweaks are needed. I mean I understand wanting to spice things up a little, but just like every other promotion line, drill (the way it generally is currently) fills a role. It just needs a little tweaking to fill in that role better.

My understanding is that drill is intended to be used by high strength units that fight multiple battles in a single turn. Most often this happens with city defenders under siege, strong units being mobbed by weaker ones, or high xp units with blitz. It probably is useful for units with marksmen as well, if they are able to take blitz. Since they already tend to have a strength advantage, drill and blitz would allow them to assinate multiple units. I'm not sure if they can take blitz though.

Thread resurrection!

I was thinking about this and Dance of Blades seems incredibly weak compared to enchanted blade. Could it be made permanent and give 1-2 first strikes? Enchantment is pretty sweet with the spellstaff and the +1 happy, could chaos use a bit of a bump?

While I like permanent spells, having spells wear off forces you to expose you wizards as members of your army rather than be a team of city based drill instructors.

I have been caught out a few times picking the wrong spells when that stack of doom
"came around the mountain"
Some days you can't even send a hawk in the right direction!

Then Courage and Enchanted blade ought to last a turn too, or perhaps they all could wear off slowly like Valor does...

How about a second attack with Dancing blade? It´s not usefull for every unit, but if you use a unit with grat strength and move 2 it´s great.

Permant effects for enchantment is ok.

I think I'd actually like to see spells that provide a permanent promotion instead last until the end of combat. This would force casters to the front lines (instead of just spamming enchanted blade in production cities) while still providing some versatility in casting.

I have a solution. If you hate drill so much, edit the XML files (and delete some others, etc.) and get rid of it. That way it will no longer annoy you.

I have a solution. If you hate drill so much, edit the XML files (and delete some others, etc.) and get rid of it. That way it will no longer annoy you.

No thanks, I'm not really into Pokemon.

No thanks, I'm not really into Pokemon.

?

I don't get it.


I'm still hoping that I can convince Kael (or maybe Vehem?) to implement a morale mechanic. It will probably be quite a while until I'm a good enough coder to do it myself.

heh, I get it. XKCD rocks

No thanks, I'm not really into Pokemon.

Huh? Wtf?! You're weird, man.