The national symbols of Poland, Austria, pre-soviet Russia and Germany are eagles. Although eagles are powerful creatures that lend themselves to heraldry, it seems strange that almost all major central and eastern european states would choose an eagle as their symbol. Is there some reason for this?

the Romans liked eagles. when the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantines came about, as (whether legimtimate or not) sucessors of the Romans, they too wanted to show that they were powerful like Rome, so they adopted its symbol, the eagle. the HRE was influential on Western Europe, the Byzantines on Eastern Europe, so those states got the eagle too.

Wallachia has an eagle too (and modern-day Romania too, as it's based on Wallachia). :)

Look up national bird on google/wiki. :) Most countries have some kind of bird on their symbols. It's not only Poland, Russia, Austria, Germany, Romania, etc.

But yes, I agree, I don't know why. Maybe the Roman thing is true, I don't know. :)

Incidentally the symbol of the Kingdom of Mysore in South India is also the double headed eagle.

Is there any connection between those and the US's bald eagle? It's North American, but it's still an eagle, but the US's influence was mostly Westeren Europe.
Maybe we just picked it cuz it was soo awesome :p

Yes, ts all from Romans. Eagle was seen as a symbol of Roman Empire, and was used by states claiming succession of it. Therefore german kings used eagle as symbol of their Holy Roman Empire. it was also used by byzantine Empire. After Constantinople has fallen, Russia adopted it's double-headed eagle as the only independent eastern christian state it claimed to be successor of Eastern Roman Empire. Romanian and serbian eagles were probably copies of russian one. The origin of polish eagle is uncertain. Either it was a totemic animal of Polanie tribe, or it was copied from german one.

It's hardly unique to Easter Europe- Germany and France both used eagles during their imperial periods, and the US uses them too. It's just the inevitable result of having this grand, "world-spanning" empire putting eagles on everything. The only major countries that didn't where the Netherlands and Britain; the Netherlands because they were technically part of the Holy Roman Empire, and so were not permitted to use eagles, Britain because both England and Scotland use lions in their heraldic emblems, so lions had more of a nationalistic appeal.
Admittedly, this tendency does seem stronger in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe, but I can guess we can put that down to the huge level of German/Byzantine influence on the region for most of the middle ages.

Romanian and serbian eagles were probably copies of russian one.

I doubt it, I'd rather say it's from the Byzantines than the Russians - Romanians were incredibly anti-Russian (and still are), I think it's just like the colors of the national flag which are also related to the Byzantine empire (just not directly).

Albania also has an eagle... (double headed one)

Polish Eagle isn't a copy from th Romans, and as someone said here, it is uncertein where it came from, but i was taught in school that it originated in pre- Piast Dynasty time. So somewhere between the 6th-8th century AD if that is true. (bringing in the possibility of Polish City States that ran like the Greek city States, and the eagle being the symbol of a dominant city-state)

Albania also has an eagle... (double headed one)

And as strange as it would seem for a modern European who knows Albania today isn't a very developed state, it's one of the symbols that greatly influenced the people around it. :) When I read the title, the first thing I thought of was the Albanian eagle. :)

Is there any connection between those and the US's bald eagle? It's North American, but it's still an eagle, but the US's influence was mostly Westeren Europe.
Maybe we just picked it cuz it was soo awesome :p
It is interesting that when the US was choosing their national emblem Benjamin Franklin fought against using an eagle and proposed instead a wild turkey.

Roman and Byzantine influence.

Curiously, the Aztec legend also involved an eagle (eagle eating a snake at Tenochtitlan).

Polish Eagle isn't a copy from th Romans, and as someone said here, it is uncertein where it came from, but i was taught in school that it originated in pre- Piast Dynasty time.
Quite possible, but I doubt the imperial connotations of the eagle were ignored as a factor. After all, it's unlikely that Poland happened to end up with the same heraldic symbol as half of Europe purely by coincidence.

Possibly, but then again, europe didn't know Poland existed into Mieszko I converted Poland to Christanity, that's why documents on pre- Mieszko Poland is so scarce. And the Eagle (as i was taught) originated from Pre-Piast dynasty Poland, so no more then a coincidence? Probably.

Edit: Actually, maybe documents about Poland may have been a bit earlier then Miezsko, some roman records of the czechs sending christian missionary's to us have been found.

It's worth remembering that the specific eagle in question is a double-headed eagle, a heraldic symbol that has its roots in the Byzantine empire. For them, a double-headed eagle represented two things:

1) The emperors' reign over both East and West.
2) The emperors' supremacy of both the religious and secular aspects of the kingdom.

I'm fairly sure the Byzantines considered the latter interpretation as the more important of the two.

Possibly, but then again, europe didn't know Poland existed into Mieszko I converted Poland to Christanity, that's why documents on pre- Mieszko Poland is so scarce. And the Eagle (as i was taught) originated from Pre-Piast dynasty Poland, so no more then a coincidence? Probably.
I suppose I didn't explain myself properly... What I meant to say was that while it's quite possible that the origins of the symbol are coincidental, the fact that the eagle was retained as a heraldic symbol was probably, to some extent, influence by it's connotations of imperial power and Christian civilisation.

The eagle has also been a popular symbol in other parts of the world. For example the eagle has always been the symbol of the Kazakhs (AFAIK) and is on their modern flag.

My guess is that the eagle has been so popular on flags, heraldry and so forth around the world because it is a bloody big bird which flies. Trying to originate it to any common link, eg: Rome, is IMO wrong.

My guess is that the eagle has been so popular on flags, heraldry and so forth around the world because it is a bloody big bird which flies. Trying to originate it to any common link, eg: Rome, is IMO wrong.
Why? It's a pretty much indisputable fact that Rome has had a greater influence on the development of European civilisation than any other culture, so why is it it unreasonable to say that the abundance of heraldic eagles in Europe is not rooted in that?
That's not to say that the "bloody big bird" idea is incorrect- I'm sure that's why the Romans originally selected the symbols themselves- it's just that, in the case of post-Roman Europe, there's more to it than that.

Ok so it's settled. All Eagles except for Poland's Eagle is all copied from Rome! :p :lol: :joke:

If you were going to use a bird as a symbol, what other bird would you use?

An eagle is so.. majestic.. do any other birds compare?

Why? It's a pretty much indisputable fact that Rome has had a greater influence on the development of European civilisation than any other culture, so why is it it unreasonable to say that the abundance of heraldic eagles in Europe is not rooted in that?
That's not to say that the "bloody big bird" idea is incorrect- I'm sure that's why the Romans originally selected the symbols themselves- it's just that, in the case of post-Roman Europe, there's more to it than that.

The Kazakhs and the Aztecs (as part of the eagle eating snake on a cactus thing), citing two specific examples, also copied Rome? I know, silly point.

Certainly the eagle became the symbol of imperiality through Roman influence but that still wouldn't explain its abundance, nor its abundance outside of Roman cultural or political continuity. Other Roman "symbols" pertaining to the empire or the emperor specifically, such as bright purple from Phoenician murex, were never maintained - not even in heraldry.

Although Napoleon used an Eagle as imperial symbol (at the poll of flags for instance), he's favourite symbol was the bee.

You will also notice that France's symbol animal is not an eagle, but a rooster, the famous "Coq gaulois".

There is a good reason for that. That's an animal that likes to sing aloud with its two feet in the muck.

I believe in Finland its a cygnus...

according to the wonderful source of information wikipedia is, the following countries may use eagles as a national emblem:

Albania, armenia, austria, Germany, Mexico, Panama, Poland, Romania, Russia, Scotland, Serbia and US.

Other used bird are:
hornero (argentina), emu (australia), magpie (bangladesh, Korea), macaw (brazil), Ibis (cambodia, Egypt), condor (Chile, Colombia, Ecuador), Crane (China), barn swallow (Estonia), Swan (Finland), gallic rooster (France), Owl (Greece), Turul Bird (Hungary), falcon (Iceland), Peacock (India), Pheasant (Japan), Kiwi (New Zealand), Bird of Paradise (Papua New Guinea), Cock (Portugal)...

There are far more european countries using a lion than an eagle in the list...15 of them. Including countries that had hardly seen a lion in a natural environment for millenia (Sweden, Norway, Denmark...)

^ Yes, but they have never lived in Europe. :D

Edit: Cross-page post - when you aren't careful to check if there is a second page or if the last post in the page is not actually the last in the thread. ;) I was answering to warpus.

The Kazakhs and the Aztecs (as part of the eagle eating snake on a cactus thing), citing two specific examples, also copied Rome? I know, silly point.
No, but they weren't European countries. Don't get me wrong, I think they both serve as pretty good evidence for the "bloody big bird that flies" theory, but, within Europe, the legacy of Imperial Rome (or, in the case of the USA, Republican Rome) were a major incentive for their use.
Albania, armenia, austria, Germany, Mexico, Panama, Poland, Romania, Russia, Scotland, Serbia and US.
Well, not really. Scotland's heraldic beast has always been the lion, specifically displayed as the lion rampant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Rampant). That's one of the reasons it became the symbol of Britain; lions appeared in the coats-of-arms of both England and Scotland, and so appealed to the nationalistic sentiments of both nations. Closest the eagle has is being the "national bird" or some such nonsense, which really isn't the same thing.
Besides, even lions are rarely used as a Scottish national symbol outside of the flag itself.The thistle, Scotland's national "flower", is much preferred as a national symbol.

do you want to contradict this wonderful source of informations that is wikipedia about scotland culture?
What proves that you are better than wikipedia about scotland culture and what scotland people use as a symbol to describe scotland?
Are you sure you want to discuss Scotland culture? I have wikipedia with me...nobody beats wikipedia!!!

Damn, foiled again! Curse you, Wikipedia! ;)

If you were going to use a bird as a symbol, what other bird would you use?

An eagle is so.. majestic.. do any other birds compare?

Only one. The mighty sparrow.

one historian insisted that polish white eagle was originally a white dove, the symbol of Holy Spirit, only with time it, uh, eaglenised.

one historian insisted that polish white eagle was originally a white dove, the symbol of Holy Spirit, only with time it, uh, eaglenised.
one problem. People weren't christain at the time of the making of the eagle. it would take 100-250 more years for the czechs to convert us.

hm? I believe the first polish birdie we know is from Mieszko's coins (it hardly looks like an eagle, btw). Are You sure they were made before he converted?

let me rephrase,

The polish bird is from pre-mieszko. i didn't mean eagle in particular.

Romanians were incredibly anti-Russian (and still are)
And why ruler of anty-Russian Romanian ruler (I forgot his name) asked Petr I to take Romania under Russian protectorat?

And why ruler of anty-Russian Romanian ruler (I forgot his name) asked Petr I to take Romania under Russian protectorat?

A Romanian ruler asked Peter I anything?? :eek: There was no Romania in that time! The name was only in use since 1859, since the Union of Wallachia and Moldova.

I'm sorry - it was Wallachian ruler Constantin Brâncoveanu.
PS As I read in Wikipedia, Moldavian prince Dmitriy Cantemir also asked Russia to take his country under Russian protectorat.

I've only heard of alliance requests, protectorate is a totally different story - link? In any case, any sane Wallachian/Moldovan would prefer Russia over the Ottoman Empire - at least they were Orthodox Christians and never prosecuted people for their faith (like what happened to exactly the one you mentioned, Constantin Brancoveanu, who's 5 sons were beheaded in front of him after which he had the same fate himself, for refusing to convert to Islam, and then after that their heads were put at the end of poles and shown through Istanbul, then being thrown into the sea). Obviously, the Russians were preferable. They would have never charged with their cavalry in a city and burn all the churches. ;) However, an alliance is totally different than a protectorate. It was clearly the lesser of two evils.

let me rephrase,

The polish bird is from pre-mieszko. i didn't mean eagle in particular.

Some proof?

2 Mirc: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Прутский_поход#.D0.A1.D0.BE.D1.8E.D0.B7.D0.BD.D0.B 8.D0.BA.D0.B8_.D0.9F.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.80.D0.B0_.D0.B 2_.D0.9F.D1.80.D1.83.D1.82.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.BC _.D0.BF.D0.BE.D1.85.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.B5

Just curious, but why did you assume I speak Russian? :huh:

Because I'm interested in writing systems, I can somewhat read Russian (also Greek, and some other alphabets), but I can't understand anything of the language itself. From what I can read, the title is something along the lines of "Prutsky Pohod", but I have no idea what that means.

Oh dang, the eagles have been explained already.... Ill do it again anyway

Back in time of the Romans, they had a single headed eagle as their symbol. When the capital of Constantinople was established and the Western End of the Empire in collaspe, the East Romans or Byzantines adopted the symbol of a double headed eagle. The Left head represents Control over Rome in the West and the right represents control over Constantinople in the East.

When the Holy Roman Empire was established, they saw themselves as a true successor of the Roman Empire as they were established by the Crown of Rome, adopted the Double Eagle. However they arent the real successor of Rome.

Russia adopted the symbol with the fall of the Constantinople on religious terms. Seeing that the Holy City and the only other Othrodox Christian State has fallen, Russia saw Moscow and itself as the sucessor of Constantinople. The Symbol could had also been passed through Royal marriages between Byzantium and Russia in the 1300s. They werent however the real sucessor.

Lastly the true sucessor of the Ancient Roman Empire adopted the Symbol of the Double Headed Eagle when Mehmed II of the Ottoman Empire, captured Istanbul from the dying Byzantine Empire. Had the Ottoman attack on Italy been sucessful, the Ottomans would have be able to use the Symbol to its True meaning.

Anyway, the House of Hasburg adopted the Symbol when Charles V became ruler of HRE, this let to the adoption of the Symbol by Austria and then Austria-Hungary. Many of the Balkan States whose Royal families intertwine with the Austria, German or Russian Royal Families adopted the Symbol upon indepedence of the country such as the German blood in the Greek and Romanian Royal Heads also many Balkan Countries such as Serbia and Bulgaria adopted the Symbol in their Medieval Counterparts from the Byzantium Empire and put it to use today.

Lastly the true sucessor of the Ancient Roman Empire adopted the Symbol of the Double Headed Eagle when Mehmed II of the Ottoman Empire, captured Istanbul from the dying Byzantine Empire. Had the Ottoman attack on Italy been sucessful, the Ottomans would have be able to use the Symbol to its True meaning.
I noticed quite a few times that you're nostalgic towards the Ottoman Empire, but calling them the true successor of Rome is simply a joke. :lol:

Anyway, the House of Hasburg adopted the Symbol when Charles V became ruler of HRE, this let to the adoption of the Symbol by Austria and then Austria-Hungary. Many of the Balkan States whose Royal families intertwine with the Austria, German or Russian Royal Families adopted the Symbol upon indepedence of the country such as the German blood in the Greek and Romanian Royal Heads also many Balkan Countries such as Serbia and Bulgaria adopted the Symbol in their Medieval Counterparts from the Byzantium Empire and put it to use today.
Not true, Romania didn't adopt it thanks to the German king. It adopted it because it was the symbol of Wallachia, which was the dominant principality of the three (two at first, three afterwards). And it was the symbol of Wallachia for centuries before the Hohenzollern family came to Romania. Also, I don't think it is from Byzantium either, considering no part of Romania (except for the really small region of Dobrogea) was part of the Byzantine Empire, and no part of Romania except for that same region was part of the Ottoman Empire.

The Russians ended up adopting the Byzantine Eagle standard cause the Russian Tsar ended up marrying the last princess(?) of Byzantium before the fall of Constantinople. At the time, the Russians were trying to become a big player on the world stage so they ended up trying to spruce up the image with both the marriage and the standard.

Some variation of this story is common to the rest of europe.

The Russians ended up adopting the Byzantine Eagle standard cause the Russian Tsar ended up marrying the last princess(?) of Byzantium before the fall of Constantinople. At the time, the Russians were trying to become a big player on the world stage so they ended up trying to spruce up the image with both the marriage and the standard.

Some variation of this story is common to the rest of europe.

Nah, teh princess (Zoe) was married AFTER the fall of C-ple, and she was actually raised catholic in Rome. She was daughter of one of Constantine XI's brothers I think. There was another princess, porfirogenete, married by kievan ruler earlier, but it was before Byzantium adopted two-headed eagle sign (which was of turkish origin, actually)

(which was of turkish origin, actually)

How do you know? :) (just curious, never heard of this)

Byzantium adopted two-headed eagle sign (which was of turkish origin, actually)Yes and no- while a two-headed eagle did pre-date Byzantine use, it was certainly not of Turkish origin. The earliest known use of the symbol was by the Hittites- a major power in ancient Anatolia- during the 2nd millenium BC. It was also used in early medieval Armenia, and had been adopted by the Byzantines well before the Turks became a major power in the region.
In short, both the Turks and Byzantines were using a symbol that was already well established in the region. The Byzantines had adopted the symbol by the 10th century, while the Turks adopted it the upon foundation of the Seljuk dynasty in the 11th century.

Just curious, but why did you assume I speak Russian?

Because I'm interested in writing systems, I can somewhat read Russian (also Greek, and some other alphabets), but I can't understand anything of the language itself. From what I can read, the title is something along the lines of "Prutsky Pohod", but I have no idea what that means.
"Prutsky pohod" means "Prut's campaign"

^ Yes, but they have never lived in Europe. :D

Edit: Cross-page post - when you aren't careful to check if there is a second page or if the last post in the page is not actually the last in the thread. ;) I was answering to warpus.

Lions were indeed in Europe. They went extinct during Roman times I believe.

Lions were indeed in Europe. They went extinct during Roman times I believe.

Huh? :huh: I was talking about bigger and more impressive birds. I am perfectly aware that lions existed in Europe. Didn't you see the part with "I was answering to warpus"?

If you were going to use a bird as a symbol, what other bird would you use?

An eagle is so.. majestic.. do any other birds compare?

Vultures certainly do, but I can't see anyone choosing a vulture given their symbolism of death rather than strength. A condor would certainly be an imposing bird to choose as a national herald, though. There's also the ospresy, owls, and falcons.

Double Headed Eagles are a common symbol used for many countries throughout the world. So are lions, powerful animals represent...well...power! :p A great Empire does not have some little wimpy leaf or flower as its national emblem, it has a great powerful Eagle! "WE'LL TAKE YOU ON, FOR TEH EMPIRRREEEE!!!!"
etc.
By the way guys can you think of any possible country that has a leaf as a national symbol? ;)

Double Headed Eagles are a common symbol used for many countries throughout the world. So are lions, powerful animals represent...well...power! :p A great Empire does not have some little wimpy leaf or flower as its national emblem, it has a great powerful Eagle! "WE'LL TAKE YOU ON, FOR TEH EMPIRRREEEE!!!!"
etc.
By the way guys can you think of any possible country that has a leaf as a national symbol? ;)

England has some flower like symbol.

By the way guys can you think of any possible country that has a leaf as a national symbol? ;)
A lot of countries have national plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_flower#Plants_.28National_flora.29) (if not actual leaves...), but how much of a national symbol the plant is varies from country to country.

England has some flower like symbol.
Yes, England has a red rose supposedly the badge of the House of Lancaster during the so-called Wars of the Roses, although the Tudor rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_rose)- combining the red rose of Lancaster with the white rose of York- is less commonly used.
Although England also has the lion as a national animal, that is more commonly associated with Britain as a whole- particularly the imperial era- and so is rarely used as a symbol of England itself beyond the heraldic three-lions. (The same applies to Scotland in regards to the thistle).
The Fleur-de-lis is also an important national symbol in France.

By the way guys can you think of any possible country that has a leaf as a national symbol? ;)

Canada's Flag has a leaf of Acer Planatoides.(kind of maple)

Yes I was aiming at Canada. :p

New Zealand uses a silver fern and the kiwi. Most imperial or would be imperial powers use eagles and great cats on flags.

New Zealand uses a silver fern and the kiwi. Most imperial or would be imperial powers use eagles and great cats on flags.
Don't forget dragons- they've always been the dominant symbol of imperialism in East Asia, because of the level of Chinese cultural influence in the region.

Lizard with wings? that's what a dragon is, seems to me like a bird with scales, if that makes sense to you. (or i'm just trolling)

edit: wait, aren't feathers an evolution of scales anyway?

Lizard with wings? that's what a dragon is, seems to me like a bird with scales, if that makes sense to you. (or i'm just trolling)
I mean Chinese-style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon) dragons. Y'know, the big long snakey ones? Western Dragons are basically big scaly birds, yeah, but not many countries use them as symbols (Wales is the only one which springs to mind) and they've certainly never been a symbol of imperial power.

Lizard with wings? that's what a dragon is, seems to me like a bird with scales, if that makes sense to you. (or i'm just trolling)

edit: wait, aren't feathers an evolution of scales anyway?

No offense but the European Dragon is ugly and seen as a monster

However, the Chinese Dragon is beautiful and is our Emperor.

No offense but the European Dragon is ugly and seen as a monster

However, the Chinese Dragon is beautiful and is our Emperor.

:lol: I would have thought you are being sarcastic if I didn't know the other posts of yours.

Ok, so this doesn't get too trollish I want to ask this question - what is that makes the Chinese dragon beautiful and the so-called European dragon (ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of different representations of dragons) ugly?

Ok, so this doesn't get too trollish I want to ask this question - what is that makes the Chinese dragon beautiful and the so-called European dragon (ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of different representations of dragons) ugly?
Easy, the answer is in the question. The Asian dragon is beautiful, because it's asian. While the European dragon is ugly, because, well, it's European.

I guess you nailed it, Steph. :D

Next he will probably claim the flight attendants of Singapore Airline are supposed to be the prettiest in the world.

But this time he would be right

No offense but the European Dragon is ugly and seen as a monster
Not exactly- the "ugly" dragon comes from a medieval Christian world view, in which dragons were seen as representations of evil. Dragons in pre-Christian paganism, post-medieval romanticism and modern fantasy vary considerably in appearance, from ugly, scaly brutes to very graceful, cat-like creatures.

:lol: I would have thought you are being sarcastic if I didn't know the other posts of yours.

Ok, so this doesn't get too trollish I want to ask this question - what is that makes the Chinese dragon beautiful and the so-called European dragon (ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of different representations of dragons) ugly?

Easy, the answer is in the question. The Asian dragon is beautiful, because it's asian. While the European dragon is ugly, because, well, it's European.

I guess you nailed it, Steph. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon

East Slavic

In Russia and Ukraine, a particular dragon-like creature, Zmey Gorynych, has three heads, is green, walks on two back paws, has small front paws, and spits fire. According to one bylina, Zmey Gorynych was killed by Dobrynya Nikitich.

Other Russian dragons (such as Tugarin Zmeyevich) have Turkic names, probably symbolizing the Mongols and other steppe peoples. Accordingly, St George (symbolizing Christianity) killing the Dragon (symbolizing Satan) is represented on the coat of arms of Moscow. Some prehistoric structures, notably the Serpent's Wall near Kiev, have been associated with dragons as symbols of foreign peoples.

Russian dragons usually have heads in multiples of three. Some have heads that grow back if every single head isn't cut off.


South Slavic
In Slovenia a dragon is called zmaj, although an archaic word of unclear origins, pozoj, is sometimes used as well. Dragons in Slovenia are generally negative in nature, and usually appear in relation with St. George. Other, presumably pre-Christian folk tales relate stories of dragons defeated similarly as the Polish Wawel Dragon, i.e. by tricking them into devouring lime. However, the dragon is not always harmful to man. The best example of this is the Ljubljana dragon, who benevolently protects the city of Ljubljana and is pictured in the city's coat of arms.

In Macedonia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro a dragon is called zmaj, zmej or lamja. It is a multi-headed dragon (with 3, 7 or 9 heads) who breathes fire. Also in Serbia and Bosnia it is also called aždaja (Serbian language), aždaha (Bosnian language) (see Azhi Dahaka and Zilant). Ala (in Serbian) or hala (in Bulgarian) is, by a belief, a female dragon, but generally she is a creature separate from dragons. Most probably from Bulgarian, the word for 'dragon' (zmeu, with E and not with A as in Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian) was borrowed among the Romanians


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cu%C3%A9lebre
Asturian, Spain
Cuélebre, or Culebre, is a giant winged serpent (a dragon) of the Asturian and Cantabrian mythology, which lives in caves and guards treasures while keeping xanas as prisoners. Although they are immortal, they grow old as the time goes by and their scales become thick and impenetrable, and flag wings grow in their bodies. They don't usually move, and when they do it, it is in order to eat cattle and people. One can kill the cuélebre giving him as meal a red-hot stone or a bread full of pins. Its spit it is said to turn into a magic stone which heals many diseases.

In Midsummer, which is a magical night in Asturian and Cantabrian folklore, it is possible for brave men to defeat the cuélebre, whose spells don't take effect that night, and marry the xana and get the treasure. However in Cantabrian areas it's said the night of Saint Bartholomew the creature increases his power and unleashes all his fury against people in revenge.

When the cuélebre grows older its scale become thicker and thicker, and he must flee Asturias and fly to the Mar Cuajada, a paradise located beyond the sea


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herensuge

Basque, Spain and France

Herensuge is the name for dragon in Basque language. In Basque mythology, dragons appear sparingly. Only the god Sugaar is associated with this creature but more often with a serpent.

Yet there is a Christian legend in which certain Navarrese knight, Teodosio de Goñi, while making penance for double parricide in Aralar sierra has to rescue a woman that had been given as ransom to the dragon. When the chains that tie his ankles have been bitten by the dragon and he sees no way of defeating it, the knight prays to Saint Michael to save him. In Heaven, the archangel is notified: "Michael, they call you in Earth" but he replies: "My Lord, I won't go to that fight without You". Finally, the archangel, with God over his head appears and cuts the head of the dragon, liberating Teodosio from his chains and ending his penance.

This legend is specifically associated to the monastery of San Miguel de Aralar. It has been interpreted in the sense of justifying the break away with the religion and customs of Pagan Basques and adopting Christianity and, specifically, the veneration for St. Michael. For the rest, it is very similar to other European legends of knights and dragons, of which is surely a local adaptation.


I would go on with how the German mythology sees dragons but ill just post this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

Now the Chinese dragon is revered as a god, as a ruler of heaven and Earth.
The European dragon is usaully associated with negative terms, for being a destroyer or an evil force. They are in myths and stories and beliefs killed by heroes and saints and whatnot. The Russian dragon is asscioated with the Mongols. Then, the mongols were seen as an "evil barbaric race sent to wreck havoc". The point is that the European Dragon is usually depicted as a monster.

So, before you comment on dragons Mirc, Read a little first. Its quite helpful to use in an discussion.

The European Dragon is ugly

The Chinese (Not Asian you fool) is Beautiful

You tell me to "read a little"? Interesting.

How I love using people's links against themselves in a debate!!

Let's see:

European dragon:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Vibriadereus.JPG/450px-Vibriadereus.JPG

Looks so peaceful!!

And now Chinese dragon:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/ThreeToeDragon.jpg

:scared: Ugh.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/DatongJiulongBi.jpg/800px-DatongJiulongBi.jpg

Oh man, he's gonna kill us! Ruuun! :run:


This one is majestic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Flag_of_Wales_2.svg/800px-Flag_of_Wales_2.svg.png


And now some other pics:

http://www.carsondunnassociates.com/sitebuilder/images/europe_dragon_statue-413x409.jpg

Beautiful, isn't it?

And here's an European one that looks almost exactly like some Chinese dragons I've seen:
http://www.orme.ws/genealogy/pics/dragon.gif

You just posted descriptions of European dragons. Yes, they have claws, and everything, but it's normal for any symbol that's supposed to be powerful. Your statement is EXACTLY something like "my dad is better than yours". It still amazes me how some people would blindly expose opinions like this, that are almost amusing!

The European Dragon is ugly
Firstly, you're confusing the "European" dragon with the Christian dragon. Christian dragons are particularly a symbol of evil, while dragons in pre-Christian mythology can be good, evil or neutral, as can the dragons of post-Medieval romanticism and fantasy.
Secondly, even Christian dragons have not always been portrayed as "ugly". Because of their supposed ties with the devil, they have often been portrayed as deceptively sleek and elegant, like the serpents, birds of prey and wildcats that they are based upon.

The Chinese (Not Asian you fool) is Beautiful
Flaming aside, "Asian dragon" is an acceptable term, as it encompasses both the Chinese dragon and it's various derived forms (Korean, Japanese, etc.), all of which share several basic elements. After all, the dragons of European mythology are even more diverse, yet we use the term "European dragon" quite comfortably.

Mirc, your idea of beauty is quite perverse. Those European Dragons are the ugliest I ever seen. And once again, you try to win an argument without even looking at facts. If European Dragons are so beautiful, tell me why they are written off in mythology as monsters?

Forget reading books, try my post first and stop ignoring my facts. Baby steps Mirc

@ Traitorfish. Christianity had always a long fling with Europe. Most European culture is somehow derived, crafted or influence by Christianity. Much like how Hinduism and Buddhism shaped India. Most of these Pre-Christian Dragons have been forgotten and those that still stay in Mythology of different European Cultures are those during the Christian Era, most notably the one Saint George killed.

Asia is a large continent. The dragon we are talking about can be found in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia and Mongolia. Theres still large swaths of land not covered. So that Dragon is not an Asian Dragon. I hate it when people use Asian to call an Sinnic thing.

Mirc, your idea of beauty is quite perverse. Those European Dragons are the ugliest I ever seen. And once again, you try to win an argument without even looking at facts. If European Dragons are so beautiful, tell me why they are written off in mythology as monsters?


I was trying to prove that they aren't so often seen as monsters, but apparently you already assume that they are when you try to convince me. I was trying to prove that they are so resemblant to the Asian dragons. Even the flag of Wales, for example, has a big red dragon on it.

How on earth do they resemble Asian dragons?

For on Chinese Dragons dont have large wings or three heads (Slavic) They control water, the weather and seas, not breathe fire. They arent killed to save damsels in distress and win treasure, they are seen as divine. They have origins as large Fish, snakes or crocodiles, not a dinosaur with wings

No I dont see the simmilarities between your Metal Salamder Birds and my Dragon

How on earth do they resemble Asian dragons?

For on Chinese Dragons dont have large wings or three heads (Slavic) They control water, the weather and seas, not breathe fire. They arent killed to save damsels in distress and win treasure, they are seen as divine.

No I dont see the simmilarities between your Metal Salamder Birds and my Dragon

You are unable to get what I meant. Sorry, but this is hopeless. :crazyeye: I'm out of this discussion.

You are unable to get what I meant. Sorry, but this is hopeless. :crazyeye: I'm out of this discussion.

Oh I understand what you are trying to say. Your trying to say European Dragons arent potrayed as monster. Trouble is that its kind of hard to buy that load when the Patron Saint to 10+ countries has to feed a Princess to it and then slays it to convert people.

Its better your out of this discussion...You could not win it if you tried.

Oh I understand what you are trying to say. Your trying to say European Dragons arent potrayed as monster. Trouble is that its kind of hard to buy that load when the Patron Saint to 10+ countries has to feed a Princess to it and then slays it to convert people.

Its better your out of this discussion...You could not win it if you tried.

Wow, you're more... (ok I'm gonna abstain I don't want to get banned) than I thought.

I was trying to say that just as the Asian dragons are varied and represented in many ways with many purposes, the European dragons are incredibly varied and it is absolutely absurd to say that "that one is ugly and that one is beautiful" just because you learned in school that anything that's Asian is bigger and better than anything else in the world. THAT is what I meant when I told you to look at the resemblances between them.

@ Traitorfish. Christianity had always a long fling with Europe. Most European culture is somehow derived, crafted or influence by Christianity. Much like how Hinduism and Buddhism shaped India. Most of these Pre-Christian Dragons have been forgotten and those that still stay in Mythology of different European Cultures are those during the Christian Era, most notably the one Saint George killed.
True, but that's not the point. The fact is that the "European dragon" is not universally seen as a monstrous, ugly destroyer. Regardless of how well known pre-Christian images of the dragon are (and they're better known than you think- Wales, anyone?), they do exist, not to mention the fact that dragons appear more frequently in modern fantasy than they ever do in medieval folklore, and they are hardly portrayed as universally diabolical in that context.
And, as I already said, even the monstrous Christian dragon was not always shown to be ugly. Let's not forget that the dragon was commonly associated with the Serpent, a creature who's greatest role in Christian, shall we say, "mythology" (no offense meant, but I'm trying to take an academic viewpoint here...) was a elegant and beguiling deceiver, not simply as a violent brute.

Dragons and peace!

Very logical :D

And all this is connected with eagles?