View Full Version : Micromanagement unfortunately gives advantages


kazapp
Dec 25, 2007, 03:41 AM
I don't know how many of you that still reads the general vanilla Civ IV forum, but I started a thread there that discusses ways to cut corners (mostly I've learnt here from your great threads :) ): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255668

Now, wouldn't Civ be a much better game if you didn't feel compelled to spend a lot of time using all these tricks just because you know they give real tangible benefits?

(Gameplay would be faster and cleaner, and you would be able to concentrate more on the fun parts of Civ, and play more games in the same period of time)

Again, this post is only because I suspect some of you are hanging here but not there, and I didn't want to start two identical threads.

DaveMcW
Dec 25, 2007, 09:31 AM
Don't read this article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109) then. ;)

Most of your tricks seem to be AI exploits. The AI is open source if you're serious about improving it.

oyzar
Dec 25, 2007, 09:35 AM
Yeah there is a huge amount of ways that micromanagement improves the game. Personally i spend the time to do this in most of my games but it would be nice if this was handled more easily. The thing that you get 5-10% research bonus in the early game for flipping the slider from 0% to 100% every couple of turns is just silly(but i still do it). Also that the governor can't handle things like the expansive bonus is pretty stupid.

kazapp
Dec 25, 2007, 01:05 PM
Don't read this article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109) then. ;)

Oh, on the contrary, it was very interesting.

Changing from integers to fractional numbers (reals) would solve quite a lot of problems it seems.

iamnleth
Dec 25, 2007, 01:13 PM
I personally think micromanagement is a bit fun.

kazapp
Dec 25, 2007, 01:30 PM
Binary Science Rate: Or, "having other than 0% or 100% waste research due to rounding errors". Obviously a bug that needs to be fixed. Continuously having to switch between 0 and 100% research is certainly not what I'd call fun.

Packs of 4: Also rounding related. Fix this and the issue goes away.

Work while moving: Actually, this I cannot become agitated over... If you really want to wrench every little drop of worker action out of your Workers, then by all means go ahead. As this won't decide a game by itself I'm not overly concerned...

Chop timing: Fix rounding and let us not worry whether there's 11 or 12 hammers in the queue...!

Prechopping: Not sure about any great abuse potential. The poster talks about prechopping city defenders as if you couldn't just chop them later instead...

Whipping: Actually, whipping isn't a big problem as I see it. Anyone can chop, at any difficulty level and regardless of circumstance. Not a lot of micromanagement, and fairly intuitive too "you chop, you get something".

That chopping may be over-powered is another issue... and just like certain units/buildings might be powerful, that's an issue for a game balance thread, but not this thread...

In the end, I'm happy to accept whipping pretty much as it is. Of course, if an expert like Zombie69 says it's overpowered, I would like it to be nerfed so I don't feel forced to stay in Slavery all the time.

But still a decidedly less serious problem (for the purposes of my thread)...

I'll add the 0%/100% science rate 'ploit but not the others, as they either doesn't seem to "belong" in there, or simply are so hardcore micromanagement I can afford to not bother about them...

Again thanks for the link :)

MyOtherName
Dec 25, 2007, 02:06 PM
Don't read this article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109) then. ;)

Most of your tricks seem to be AI exploits. The AI is open source if you're serious about improving it.
Most of those have been changed in 3.13, haven't they?

kazapp
Dec 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
I've been given conflicting info about the fractional research issue.

A surprising number of issues from Zombie69's thread turned out to be not very serious, which made me very glad.

So far, a number of quite reasonable replies to the main thread, which again you will find here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255668

oyzar
Dec 26, 2007, 12:34 PM
You lose max 1 beaker+gold from the fractional research...

Phrederick
Dec 26, 2007, 11:44 PM
In the end, I'm happy to accept whipping pretty much as it is. Of course, if an expert like Zombie69 says it's overpowered, I would like it to be nerfed so I don't feel forced to stay in Slavery all the time.

Since this is primarily a single player game, I don't see why it's a problem if micromanagement gives advantages. If it's too much work or it's not fun, just don't do it. I don't use the binary research thing because it just doesn't seem worth it to me, although I use most other micro techniques. Even if slavery is "overpowered", you don't need to use it. Instead of asking for whipping to be nerfed, just don't use it as much.

dennis580
Dec 27, 2007, 12:11 AM
I hate micromanagement. My biggest complaint, and one that still almost ruins Civ for me is that Firaxiz still hasn't created some kind of commander or something that will manage all of your military units for you in wars.

Until this is done Civ is always going go be broken, and I will end up getting bored, and quiting most of my games before I finish them.

fuzzynutz
Dec 27, 2007, 12:38 AM
His whole point is that these are mostly unfair advantages that the AI does not take advantage of (Worker Stealing, Pre-Chop, Overflow Management, etc) or just stuff that could be made easier for the player to play and not have a seizure on their mouse for 2 hours or more while playing a TBS game.

kazapp
Dec 27, 2007, 03:28 AM
Since this is primarily a single player game, I don't see why it's a problem if micromanagement gives advantages. If it's too much work or it's not fun, just don't do it. I don't use the binary research thing because it just doesn't seem worth it to me, although I use most other micro techniques. Even if slavery is "overpowered", you don't need to use it. Instead of asking for whipping to be nerfed, just don't use it as much.
I would prefer a game where I didn't have to take all these manual steps to be able to compete, thank you very much.

Don't make the mistake of equating taking meticulous repetitive action with skill, as that's work, not fun. :)

I am arguing Civ would be a better and more fun game for almost everybody if we could get rid of these counterintuitive "tricks".

On the other hand, I haven't listed the "always assign a Worker a task instead of moving him fully" for example. There you have micromanagement that gives a modest benefit.

And I haven't said anything about how good Civ players keep detailed track of any trade opportunities. Of course I would like the game to assist me here too, so I don't have to check various screens but the main screen all the time. But I need to start somewhere, don't I...? (And I can always dl a mod that does this for me while I'm waiting for it to be included in the main game)

I'm all for micromanagement that simply isn't worth the effort - but I strongly dislike knowing I have to do the computer's job to get significant bonuses I can't do without. Information at your fingertips, not hidden in secondary screens, that's what it's all about: a good user interface design in general and a good Civ experience in particular! :)

Cer
Dec 27, 2007, 07:41 AM
I would like there to be a better "city governor" function. My cities often run specialists automatically as though they could get a great person, but if I have a great-library+national-epic+lots-of-food city, I probably consider GP points in my other cities to be worthless, beyond maybe my second best GP-producer city. It would be valuable to able to label a city as "gp points have no value to me here", as "I want lots of farms and GP points here" or etc. and having automated workers and the city's citizens react to that decision would be nice.

Gliese 581
Dec 27, 2007, 12:52 PM
I would like there to be a better "city governor" function. My cities often run specialists automatically as though they could get a great person, but if I have a great-library+national-epic+lots-of-food city, I probably consider GP points in my other cities to be worthless, beyond maybe my second best GP-producer city. It would be valuable to able to label a city as "gp points have no value to me here", as "I want lots of farms and GP points here" or etc. and having automated workers and the city's citizens react to that decision would be nice.

Yes, or better yet, have the governor NEVER assign specialists unless they're actually more productive than working a tile would be (seldom). Of course, it would help a bit for players who don't want to micromanage if scientists instead of engineers were the default specialist. Heh maybe they could go even further and add, emphasize SE or CE -option to the city status screen? :p

DaveMcW
Dec 27, 2007, 01:14 PM
Heh maybe they could go even further and add, emphasize SE or CE -option to the city status screen? :p

It's called "emphasize great people" and "emphasize commerce".

And in BTS auto-workers do respect the decision.