I am going to leave the emperor training to people like Sirian, Sullla, and Arathon. These players out class me at the current time. However, even at Regent there are important lesson you need to move up toward emperor.

This training will concentrate on items that the higher levels tolerate even less - worker wastage, bad city placement, poor build choices, bad team coordination, etc. I don't plan to talk much on tech choices as these become meaningless at monarch at higher. At those levels, it is definitely cheaper to buy the tech.

The game will be on a standard map. I still have to determine what the Civ will be - however I have ruled out expansionist, and religious traits. These are just too powerful.

I will NOT play any turns in this game.

I want to get five players in this game. This was the mistake with the last training game - to few players.
10 turns each - wait for comments before moving. I will NOT be giving an official grade, however expect me to be critical of clearly weak moves.

Lee I am currently playing/learning with Sirian's Regent game but would like to continue to learn more about the game and SG coordination in general. Basically, I want to be able to contribute to SGs without regular players feeling that I have wasted my 10 turns by doing some :smoke: y moves.

Hotrod

im in.

hotrod0823 - player #1
Trickey - player #2

Good idea LK - games do not need to be at Emperor level to instruct newcomers as to the game's fundamentals. At the same time though, I would have been bored with another Regent game and I think that playing the higher levels is good experience too. It's great that there are games of both types to look at. I will try to follow this thread and chime in from time to time if I see something that I think could be helpful. :)

Hi LK
put me in please, i have a lot to learn in succession games.

Here's an idea I was considering running (at Emperor level), but decided I didn't have time to do properly. How about a "Best-Ball" game rather than succession? Each player takes a turn and posts their results. The game coordinator (who doesn't play) criticizes them all, and chooses the best result of all the games as the official save for the next round to begin from. If a particular player's turn is chosen 3 times consecutively or 5 times total, they "graduate", and someone else can take the spot.

I think the Greeks are the best training-day civilization. No crutches of religious or industrious, no specialized advantages of militaristic or expansionist, and a UU that should let players build in safety for the entire ancient age.

I'd like to join.

hotrod0823 - player #1
Trickey - player #2
Juliennew - player #3
curufinwe - player #4 (snuck in while I was posting!)



@T-hawk - I like the civ choice - it makes sense - Greece is our civ

You idea would get to confusing. This was why I gave up on the emperor training game I was in - confusing the shadow with the real game - yours would have the same problem.

One more player and we start.

I'll join! :D
*waves to curu*

sorry I forgot to tell you about this. *waves back*

hotrod0823 - player #1
Trickey - player #2
Juliennew - player #3
curufinwe - player #4 (snuck in while I was posting!)
Chieftess - player #5

This game will start shortly. I will wait to see if we get a sixth.

In my idea, there would be no shadow (or everything's a shadow, depending on how you want to look at it.) Every player downloads the savegame, takes a turn, reports -- and then the best result is selected by you after-the-fact to be the official turn. All the players then download the savegame that you designate, and take a turn from there, and so on. To me, it seems simpler than the usual way of doing succession games (no confusion between official and shadow turns). It's up to you, though; good luck!

And you could have another thread (not quite a shadow...) that has the other player's actions, and your suggestions, or why you didn't pick it.

This game will start in about 8 hours.
If someone want slot #6 - the LAST slot - post before then.

LK are you going to post just the game correct? I will then pickup from 4000 BC and play 10?

Hotrod

What I will do is:
1 - Start the game, and save at 4000BC.
2 - Search around a bit to make sure the position is reasonable - I rememeber one game I quit at 3000BC when I finnally found a spot that could grow beyond 2 without clearing jungle.
3 - Hotrod - you will get to play 20 to get the game rolling, everyone gets 10 after that.

The next person does NOT play until after my comments - it may slow the game down, but not much of a training day with commentary, is it?

Ok no problem will check back tonight to grab the game.

Hotrod

(1) 4000 BC - The game begins


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-4000BC.zip



hotrod0823 - Playing - 20 turns
Trickey - (on deck) - 10 turns from here on
Juliennew -
curufinwe -
Chieftess -

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day with that.

How can I make screenshots of the game ?
Do I need a program running in background or Civ3 has this option incorporated ?

I have the game will try and play tonight, and post later.

Hotrod

4000 BC (0): Check out area with worker first move to grassland to the west. Move settler to the NW to get 3 bonus grasslands and remain on the river.

3950 BC (1): Found Athens with a tribe in the city radius, learn Ceremonial Burial. Warrior started due in 5 turns. Worker mines bonusgrassland.
Start researching Pottery in 24 turns. Set research to 90% now 12.

3900 BC (2): zzzz

3850 BC (3): zzzz

3800 Bc (4): zzzz

3750 BC (5): zzzz

3700 BC (6): Warrior finished start another. Move to mountain top see more grasslands to the east and a coastline to the north.

3650 BC (7): worker roading, moving warrior to the North.

3600 Bc (8): see turn 7.

3550 BC (9): see the coastline to the North. Looks like ice the south.

3500 BC (10): Warrior finished start settler.

3450 BC (11): One warrior exploring west the other to the east, see coastline to the West. Culture expands.

3400 BC (12): continue mining other bonus grasslands. More warrior movement. Change from settler to barracks, settler would be done too soon.:(.

3350 BC (13): adjust research to get pottery in 1 with +4 gold. Move warrior movement.

3300 BC (14): Research complete on Pottery start warrior code. Research returned to 90%, WC in 15 turns. Switch to granary at Athens.

3250 BC (15): Found what appears to be the Eastern coast, more ice to the south.

3200 BC (16): Found the West coast and a wheat, on the eastern front found another minor tribe. WC in 13 turns and the granary will be done in 9 :(.

3150 BC (17): Dyes to the SE. Mines complete, start roads.

3100 BC (18): Tribe teaches us Masonry, See the NW coastline.

3050 BC (19): MOre warrior movement.

3000 BC (20): See the entire Eastern portion of what looks like our own island.

Not much to really say. Chose the granary to help grow athens faster to produce settlers and workers quickly.

Here is the Save:







http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-3000BC.zip

originally posted by hotrod0823
3500 BC (10): Warrior finished start settler.

3400 BC (12): continue mining other bonus grasslands. More warrior movement. Change from settler to barracks, settler would

be done too soon..

3300 BC (14): Research complete on Pottery start warrior code. Research returned to 90%, WC in 15 turns. Switch to granary at

Athens.


Well you ALMOST earned a :smoke:
The recovery wasn't bad - barracks was a placeholder - BUT your summary gave no clue about that.
The granary may be a bit premature, but it fits the early game theme - EXPAND.

Worker actions - small carelessness. Rivers generate commerce - you should have improved the grasslands with shields along the river first. I will concede it is just $1/turn - but that is enough to pay for the granary. Every dollar and shield adds up.

Exploring - south is completed, and warrior going north along the coast. Going along the coast will show more squares.
City optimization - useing the right tiles.

Summary was included - always good in succesion games.

I can tell you were in another training game - pottery (always a good first choice) started the SAME turn as the city.

Just one subtle one with tile improvement choice - not bad. Of course, it is still early :lol:


hotrod0823 -
Trickey - Playing - 10 turns
Juliennew - (on deck) - 10 turns from here on
curufinwe -
Chieftess -

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.


Hmmm... LK28 doesn't count for currently playing? Make that two carelessness ;)

Originally posted by Juliennew
How can I make screenshots of the game ?
Do I need a program running in background or Civ3 has this option incorporated ?

You can take a picture of the screen in Civ3 (or in any program, for that matter) by hitting the "print screen" key on the keyboard. This saves the image as a bitmap file, which you can paste into any graphics program to save. I use my freeware copy of Microsoft Paint to save my screenshots, and it works fine. Be sure to save your pictures as .jpg files so they can be displayed on this site though! :)

im up? ok great, ill have my turn up tonight.

1. Worker begin irrigation

2.Athens goes into civil disorder.

3.nothing

4. Athens finishes granary, set build settler,

5. Must change one mine to irrigation as Athens is not growing and will go into disorder if I make another citizen work.

6. Were loosing money! Science set back to 70%. We will still discover wc in 3 turns.

7. We get the wheel from a goody hut.

8.nothing

9. Done researching wc, begin research on code of laws in hope of getting rebuplic later.

10.nothing


Summary

we need to get a few cities going quick. Settler in athens done in 1 turn.

Originally posted by Trickey
2.Athens goes into civil disorder.

5. Must change one mine to irrigation as Athens is not growing and will go into disorder if I make another citizen work.

6. We are loosing money! Science set back to 70%. We will still discover wc in 3 turns.

:smoke: :smoke:

I will review the game in more detail tonight within, however clear mistakes here.

1 - We have one city. You get one turn after growth where you can see revolt before it happens. At this number of cities there is NO reason not to have raise the luxury rate to prevent this. Growth = additional shields, money, etc. If the city is larger when the next settler starts you will be able to build the next settler quicker. Civ has a steamroller effect, and small corrections in the BC time frame make a big difference.


2 - Turn 5 - WT????
2A - We are in despotism, irrigation won't help. I don't remember any bonus food tiles - the only tiles in despotism that would benefit from irrigation.

2B - Raise the luxury rate!
The BC time frame is the worst time for specialist. It sounds like you hired an entertainer.
Never hire entertainers this early in productive cities
Growth = power, shields, and an edge over the AI. The AI simple adds people without many shields.

2B - If you did irrigate a tile to fix the problem, then you wasted worker turns to irrigate the tile, and more turns will be wasted to put mines back. Irrigation won't help to Republic / Monarchy which is a LONG way away.

3 - Turn 6 - This is a GOOD catch. :goodjob:
You need cash to build embassies, buy workers, etc. Unless there is a pressing need for a tech (Need Masonry with 3 turns for Pyramids, war and Knights available, etc), always try to build cash. If nothing else, cash can help with alliances and other deals. The only trick with cash, a good military to prevent extortion. The science choices show you have a goal in mind.

Next player is NOT up - further review pending



I will apoligize in advance in case I offend any one. I tend to be a bit fanatical about the games I plan. I really like to stress critical items - some that took me a long time to realize. I was stuck in the entertainer rut myself for a while.

Originally posted by Juliennew
How can I make screenshots of the game ?
Do I need a program running in background or Civ3 has this option incorporated ?

Ok, do you have a program like Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop?
If not, go to www.pspinc.com and get the shareware version of Paint Shop Pro (I don't know if 7.0 stops working after 30 days - 3.x doesn't).

After you have that:

Step 1 - Go to the area you want to copy. (I usually zoom out, and use gridlines in the game, and with food/shield icons on. It helps for city placement).

Step 2 - Hit 'Print Screen'

Step 3 - If you haven't done so already, load Pain Shop Pro (PSP). If not, hit CTRL-TAB. That will bring up the start menu. Go to run, and type in the location of the PSP program. (Usually c:\psp\psp.exe)

Step 4 - Once you're in PSP, go to Edit-->Paste As-->New Image. Now you'll see it's saved as a .BMP (Bitmapped image).

Step 5 - Go to Save As, and in that box, select JPG.

Step 6 - You'll want to compress the image so that it's much smaller. Select options, and under commpression, go for 30%, and save it. (you can check the size in the directory you saved it in). It should be less than 500K.


EDIT: Huh? Strange, when I replied, that quote showed as the last post in the thread. Strange...
???
:confused:

I was wondering if any of the trainers (LK, Sirian, Arathorn, Sulla, Zed) have ever considered using some of the variants that have been played in succession games. For example, I had decided recently to make the jump to Monarch, as I could easily beat the AI at Regent. But I knew that one of my weaknesses was the balancing between military and infrastructure, and the handling of war with other civs. So I began playing Always-War at Regent level, and that really helped me begin to streamline my workers, micromanage the production of the cities, and achieve rapid expansion even while in a state of constant war.

Just an idea, and besides, Always-War is a hell of a lot of fun. It may not teach a player everything there is about the game, but it can help to focus the lesson on some key elements.

Saw the :smoke: once I finished the first mine. Realized too late that the river will give the extra gold. Those river grasslands should've been mind first.

Hotrod

Personally, I would've left that worker where it was (turn 1).

BTW, can we make suggestions? :)

Making suggestions is valid in any succession game.

Part of the succession games is team work.
If the team work fails - your civ may fail.

I used the worker to explore, if you will, where to put the settler. If we had an scout I would have moved to the mountain first just to look around. By moving the settler to the new position I didn't waste the bonus grassland I started on and picked up some more to the NW.

Sorry I didn't include a picture but the upload was taking for ever then game me an error.

Hotrod

I looked at the save too, and noticed that the worker is undoing the mine for irragation! That will delay the settler for another turn. :)

That was turn 2. Like Lee said irrigation now is not necessary. Mines and roads are more important right now unless it is a food bonus like wheat or cattle.

@Lee: Cash this early may not be as critical and saving turns on tech even running a small neg. gold per turn. At regent level you are on an even playing field and may be able to hold a tech lead. In my other TDG, we actually are able to get gold from the other civs for ROP, and Peace without trading away techs. Granted the English scouts helped with the early techs from huts but here we are already 2 techs up with the first 2 huts. Running a small negative to gain turns shouldn't be a problem early.

Also even running at 80 or 90% with -3 or even more gpt on the last turn you can almost always reduce the reasearch to 10 or 20 and still get the tech in 1 turn with an increase of some gold. In my case from turn number 1 it was +4 gold. Modest but an increase none the less.

Hotrod

Hotrod

Ok, it is 0.40 AM here. I'll play tomorrow afternoon or morning ... if i can wake up :D
@Chieftess
Thanks for the advices.

@hotrod0823 - I will agree this one the cashflow one can be argued either way. My preference is to limit negative cash flow,
unless are have something else to offset it with.


Athens are is stands right now.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-075.jpg


Athens using irragtion.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-076.jpg


Athens done correctly with 10% luxuries.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-077.jpg



What to gain from the above pictures?
1 - Proof that the irragation gained nothing. 10 worker turns were wasted.

2 - Proof of the value of the luxuries plan. In the original version the FIRST settler was due in 1 turn. In my "correct" version - settler #2 is under construction, due in 9. Notice the settler in the red box - I had the settler two turns from Athens already.

The game is often won by the time AD arrives. A city built several turns earlier is MAJOR!


This was a bad turn, that I think boils down to one bad action causing a cascade effect.
I don't know why the luxuries weren't raised - science can drop to 80% not causing a loss of turns.
This early in the game - tech is secondary. You get enough cities going well developed, and science won't be a problem.


Worker mistake - The square irragated was wrong, but why no road? Unless there is a barbarian / enemy attack - build the road before leaving the square.

Additional worker mistake - If you felt the need for irragtion, irragate the squares NOT being used.
Good development rule Don't redevlope squares - it is better to work the new square. Cancel mine for irragation or irragation for mine usually isn't needed until rails.

OVERALL impression - bad turn.

hotrod0823 -
Trickey -
Juliennew - Playing
@Juliennew - please STOP the irragtion NOW. We have already taken a hugh production hit, don't make it worse.
curufinwe - (on deck) - 10 turns
Chieftess -

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

One last thought on the happiness: raising lux is the way to go as you pointed out but isn't moving a warrior back into the city an option as well. I don't know if there was one near by.

Hotrod

Yes, MP would also be an option.

There was one relatively close by.

Preturn - Cancel irrigation and move the worker to the east. I didn't raise luxuries for the moment --->unnecessary because of the settler's done next turn. Take a look at Athens and micromanage to make sure the settler is done next turn and that no civil disorder will occur.
2550BC (1) - Settler's done. Begin construction of a warrior for MP and in case of barbs. Move settler to the north. Worker's mining the irrigated square
2510BC (2) - Settler's moving north. Exploring
2470BC (3) - Settler's moving north and found a horse close to Athen and near the spot i wanted him to find the next city. Exploring
2430BC (4) - Settler hit the spot for the new city ---> Right on the Horse. Exploring
2390BC (5) - Athens : Warrior's done ---> I fortify him. I put a settler in construction. Sparta founded. I put a warrior in construction in it. Exploring
2350BC (6) - A palace has been constructed in dedicace of Alexander's greatness. Exploring. Goody hut spotted.
2310BC (7) - A barb warrior is spotted near Athens border !! I put our warrior in ambush on the mountains, in case the barb's approaching by the forest. Mine done, building road. Exploring. Our fellow warrior trains some young people far north of Athens. Conscript warrior added. I give him the mission of exploring to the east while our regular warrior continue on the northwest.
2270BC (8) - The barb's is penetrating in the south by the forest. I decide to wait for the next turn to attack him 'cause our warrior can't see nothing in this dense forest. Warrior fortified in the mountains.
Exploring
2230BC (9) - Bab's near Athens and near our worker but on grasslands. Our warrior attacks and wins the battle. Warrior become a veteran. Even being aware of the risks of attacking the bab despite the penalty of the river, i take the risk. Worker could have been killed and i didn't want to cancel him making the road.
Exploring. Spotted Incense far north.
2190BC (10) - Sparta finished his warrior. I fortify him. I put a worker in production. Exploring

State of Greece :
- 70% Science / 30% Commerce
- Writing discovered in 29 turns
- 24 Gold in the treasury / +1/GPT
- Athens - size 1 - grows in 1 turn - Settler in 5 turns
- Sparta - size 1 - grows in 5 turns - Worker in 5 turns

Suggestions :
- Make a road to Sparta right now (Horse in it). Make it right north of the current location of the worker ---> only 2 squares to road.
- Pump out Settlers from Athens.
- Make the second worker in Sparta.
- Find and destroy the barb camp south of Athens.
- Build a city four squares right east of Athens : good site spotted ---> hills, game, shielded grasslands, access to the sea and no more barb camps appearing.

Errors I did :
- Put the warrior on the mountains : if I had let him in Athens, I wouldn't had the river penalty when I attacked the barb.
- Explored with a warrior wich I could take for MP and defense in Athens or Sparta.

Here's the game.

@Juliennew - Playing the game at 4:30 AM :crazyeye: I think France is GMT +1 if I remember correctly.

Sparta location choice - hard to say. The spot to get the river loses the cows and causes a large overlap.

Settler build in Athen - Wrong. Click enter once - Settler in 2, growth in 5. Three turns of shields wasted
This is the classic AI building mistake - one off the human advantages is to avoid that mistake. 15 shields are invested -

the best choices are Temple or Barracks. I lean toward Barracks - if the next settler times isn't good - you can pop a vet

hoplite out.

Sparta timing of worker is going - a 2nd worker doesn't hurt - it seems like you can never have enough of these guys ;)

Unsure - the dealing of the barb - I would have to see every turn to comment. I just get a sense the moves may not have been

optimal.

:goodjob: I see the word micromanage. At some point it starts become to hard to do, but I think it is mandatory in BC to

get the steam roller going.

I am not sure if an extra warrior exploring is a mistake. If you find a goody hut first, contact the AI sooner, etc it is

worth it.

Looked pretty good except mistake on settler timing - the trick here - you have to consider additional shields added with city growth.


hotrod0823 -
Trickey -
Juliennew -
curufinwe - Playing - 10 turns
Chieftess - (on deck) - 10 turns
SIXTH SLOT STILL OPEN

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

One suggestion on the city placement. That's one thing I used to do, until I started learning from some of the pros. I think this is a situation were we should tightbuild. There's not much space to expand, except to the west, which equals high corruption. With tight build (2 tiles in between cities), not only do you reduce corruption, you use more tiles (cities only go up to size 6 before acquaducts, and hospitals are a long way off), and have a quicker defense. I tried a test once, a 4 tile island, and the "mainland" (actually another island). The tightbuild won out (by getting to the island) by 1 turn, but was also ahead in tech and gold.

I'm playing it, expect post in a while (at most 24 hours, should be sooner)

@LkTender
I'm too addicted at this great game :crazyeye:
Yes, it's GMT +1 here.
For Sparta, we have the cow and didn't overlap if my reminds are good.

For the research, I suggest Litterature after writing discovered. If we don't meet anyone, we will be far away in tech research. We should put our efforts in it. For the moment, we are "Moderately advanced".

Of course Juliennew, I'm always one for literature, love those libraries, which are cheap due to our scientific attribute.

A few comments here...

A tight-build will always be more powerful than a normal build that allocates 21 tiles or close to it for each city. For that reason, I don't use the ICS tight building style. Why? Because it turns Civ3 from a game into a calculator formula, where cities are laid out in a perfect grid and you have more cities than you know what to do with. Playing this way is just not much fun IMO - take a look at the monstrosity that RBD13 has become if you don't understand what I mean. More cities = more power, but also less enjoyment of the game in the long run.

As for your civ being moderately advanced: your status on the science advisor screen is determined solely by the progress of the other civs in relation to you. At this point, you have met no other civs and thus have nothing to compare yourselves with. So Sid is always going to call you "moderately advanced" until you meet someone else. It's not something you can go by at this point in the game. :)

Alas Civilization is not working for my computer, therefore skip me, I should be able to next time.

hotrod0823 -
Trickey -
Juliennew -
curufinwe -
Chieftess - Playing - 10 turns
SIXTH SLOT STILL OPEN (on deck)

Ok, got it. I'll play/post within 24 hours or so. I've got work tomorrow (half day), and the demogame here later this evening, but I should find some time for 10 turns during the afternoon.

Sulla: about F6 advisor info, that is not correct. Playing RBD7 Isolationists, and meeting no civs at all until almost 1000AD, the F6 advisor was noted to go from calling us advanced, to moderate, to backward.

There's all kinds of subtle information available through the F# key menus. I don't talk about that much, but I do know where to look when I have need or use for certain bits. F11 can be the most helpful, but the only one I find useless is F9, which is the Palace display. Every other one has some kind of special info available nowhere else.


- Sirian

guys, sorry about my stupid moves, im not usually that bad i promise. i have to admit i did not think of moving up th luxery rate. Ill do better next time.

@Trickey - this is what training games a for - to think of different answers.


@Chieftess - OVERDUE - Need moves now

I was hoping to play earlier, but my family wanted to use the computer. I'm playing my turns now.

LK, I'll take the 6th spot. I haven't ever done a succession game before though. Also, I won't lie, I lack in some faucets of the game, mostly the micromanagement, poor city placement sometimes, and sometimes too much of a builder and let down on military, that could be why I went for the diplomatic win in GOTM8 :D

Turn 0 - 2150 BC

Assessment
Athens - Settler in 5, Size 1 (granary), 1 to size 2, 5 to size 3. -1 turn waste for the settler. Micromanage at turn 5.

Sparta - Building a worker, done in 5 turns. Growth in 5.

Lowered Science to 10% and still get writing in 29 turns. (net gain of +4, for +5 gpt total). (micromanagement tatic learned from the Demogame)

Turn 1 - 2110 BC

Athens grows! Moved the worked tile (settler in 2) to one by the river, towards Sparta (settler in 3). Road started on worked-Athenian tile (I know I could mine it, but that would mess up the settler build...) (+6 gpt)

Turn 2 - 2070 BC

Just scouting and working

Turn 3 - 2030 BC

Just scouting and working

Turn 4 - 1990 BC

Worker produced in Sparta. Goes to the worked tile (1 SE).

Turn 5 - 1950 BC

Settler in Athens! Places Athens on settler. Current settler is going 4 tiles NE of Athens. I like the early tight build now, since it gives a boost in commerce without as much corruption. One worker (S of Sparta) starts building roads (good for quick troop movement), and the other starts mining. The scout (warrior) spots a border! The other warrior finds a map of the region in the goody hut.

Turn 6 - 1910 BC

Scouting and working the terrain.

Turn 7 - 1870

Settler is at its' city site. Getting closer to that other city over the border, and it's.....

Turn 8 - 1830

ZULU!!!!! Contact is made, and Shaka is polite.

We decide to trade...

Their iron working for Alphabet and 76 gold. We lower that gold to 55 gold! They have 3 cities (I looked at their city list). Thermopyle is built. There's iron 2 tiles to the SE. There is no more iron until the mountains to the north-north-west!! Thermopyle on temple.

Turn 9 - 1790 BC

Scouting and working the terrain

Turn 10 - 1750 BC

The mines by Sparta are done, and both workers start building roads. Athens grows to size 2, and is micromanaged to have growth and settler in 5 turns. (before, it was a settler in 3)

I think that city of my should've been in a tile... But, it looks like a long continent, so gallies would REALLY help for troop movement. It's a tradeoff, I guess. Also, Since it looks like we'll have more than 7 cities, I suggest building (or prebuilding for) the pyramids.

Here's a map of our iron resources, and other resources. It looks like a lot of expanding to do. That might mean settlers on gallies to claim those northern resources. I would suggest NOT giving the Zulus our map...

Reading the summary - perfect move on the switch to temple to secure the iron.
It is never too early to lock resources - don't believe it - take a look at ARS01 - British Open.

I am glad to see you haggled the price on Iron Working. The only thing NOT worth haggling is wm - usually ZERO playroom on price.

TURN 10 - A mistake was made! If you have to slow down growth in Sparta to get the next settler - timing for food / shields - then the settler was started to soon. NEVER slow city growth in highly productive city - Slow growth / entertainers should be reserved for hopelessly corrupt cities.

Sparta should find ANYTHING ELSE TO BUILD to get food higher and not have to play this game. You could move the warrior from Sparta to Therm, build another warrior, then start settler. Instead 2 turns of Sparta time is WASTED - the MM is meaningless - 2 turns are still WASTED.

UNSURE - Report doesn't tell either way - are we checking the Zulu for possible workers to buy?
Grabbing a worker this early would be a huge bonus.

City location for Therm... - Large tile overlap, but in this weird shaped landmass I don't know I could propose any better.

Science - 10% correct call - additional science gains nothing on writing research. In addition, the Zulu have at least one tech to buy, and you need cash to buy it.

MM - Sparta is using the tile the workers are at :goodjob:


OVERALL game progress problem - First round has seen BAD food management with Sparta.


hotrod0823 - on deck
Trickey -
Juliennew -
curufinwe -
Chieftess -
rangers85 - Playing


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

(0) 1750 BC - Not much needs a changin'

(1) 1725 BC - Barb peaks out from fog south of Athens. Continue scouting north and northwest, head southern warrior towards barb camp, then will take eastward scouting. Nothing new from Zulu to trade for.

(2) 1700 BC - Works finish road by Sparta. Begin road to connect Therm. Continue searching north.

(3) 1675 BC - Phrygian Barb attacks Athens and we win. The People Love Me and offer to upgrade the palace, we decide the steps would help us exercise. Zulus begin Pyramids. Settler 1 turn away in Athens, Sparta grows. Our warrior attacks a Parthian Barb Camp and wins. Continue scouting. Goody Hut revealed.

(4) 1650 BC - Settler finished in Athens, Warrior began for Therm. Settler sent towards west coast. Popped Goody Hut and the Gaul village is deserted.

(5) 1625 BC - Scouting, not much happened

(6) 1600 BC - Scouting, warrior sights a yellow Egyptian border. Will wait to buy Mysticism till we get Egyptian contact for cheaper rate.

(7) 1575 BC - Settler in place, will found next turn, Zulus get Horseback Riding.

(8) 1550 BC - Road to Therm completed, begin a mine by Therm to speed up Temple. Corinth founded and begin work on Warrior. We make contact with Egyptians, they don't have Alphabet yet, but have Horseback Riding and Mysticism like Zulus. We offer Egyptians Alphabet, 3 gold for Horseback Riding and they accept. We now offer Zulus 46 gold for Mysticism and they accept. This is a savings of 51 gold from before Egyptian contact, almost the price of an embassy.

(9) 1525 BC - Warrior completed in Athens, begin on Settler. Send warrior south to find barb camp. Continue scouting in North. Zulus learn Mathmatics, they want 8 gpt, 84 gold, we reject for now.

(10) 1500 BC - Egyptians begin Pyramids. Keep Scouting the North. Switch Athens to Pyramids, 79 turns to go.

Final Thoughts:
It's up to the next player to continue Pyramids or not.
No workers became available during my turns, otherwise would have bought one.
We have 4 cities as do Zulus, Egypt has 6.
8 turns till Writing.


I'm sure I probably did something wrong, so lay into me now :D

Cornith - The direction you build the city is good - the AI will expand TOWARD you.
You should to the same back, unless a city spot is critical.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-079.jpg
City location - Compare your red location with my black location.

We already have 2 coastal cities, and should see another s / se of Athens.
The need for a coastal city doesn't influence things.

Let's count shields -
Cornith current location 2 hill, 6 water, 1 forest, 4 bonus grassland, 7 grassland.
Natural shields = 7, food = 31
My black X = 2 hill, 4 forest, 4 bonus grassland, 9 grassland, 1 water
Natural shields = 14, food = 34
The black X city uses ALL tiles near the capitial, your location wastes 1 grassland, 2 forest, 1 hill that NO other city will

use.
Black X gains 8 natural shields. In addition 3 more forest that can be chopped to grasslands - once out of depostism, the

hills will provide plenty of extra shields.

The instincts say go coast, but look at the city value. Plus, you want LITTLE wasted tiles near the capital.
Some can't be avoided with this layout, but...


The Pyramids - OK, this is regent, you have a good chance, however...
However, if going for a wonder - dedicate at least one worker to improveing the city building the wonder
Failure to do so will lose the wonder.

Workers - we are up to FOUR cities, and have just 1 worker!
There is an debate exactly how many are needed by many players, but this is clearly TO LITTLE.
We need at least one more worker ASAP, probably more with going for a wonder.


Settlers - we are in expansion mode, but ZERO settlers on the way?
hotrod0823 needs to start one.





hotrod0823 - Playing
Trickey - on deck
Juliennew -
curufinwe -
Chieftess -
rangers85 -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

Actually, there's 2 workers, they're stacked right now.

I have the game will try to play 10 and post soon.

Hotrod :)

1500 BC (0): Survey the situation, 3 warriors out exploring. Diplo: Zulus have math but want an arm and a leg, 4 cities. Egypt no new tech but 6 cities.

Domestic front: Veto the Pyramids, switch to settler, grow in 5 get settler in 5. Can't due much with the other cities to many shields wasted if they are switched.

1475 BC (1): Split workers one stays with Thermopylae, the other goes to Sparta.

1450 BC (2): Mines start at Thermopylae, Move some warriors, more exploration.

1425 BC (3): Corinth builds warrior starts worker, grow in 5, worker in 5. E warrior stops near by barb camp. Barbs are out and all our warrior are to the North, yikes!!

1400 BC (4): More warrior moves. Settler next turn in Athens.

1375 BC (5): Settler in athens, start Hopilite (7) turns, Can build Hopilite then start another settler or worker out of Athens. Disperse barbs +25 gold.

Half way diplo check: No changes math still too expensive!

1350 BC (6): Granary at sparta Start another settler. Athens settler moving towrd hills to the NW, with game, and bonus grasslands with little overlap with Corinth.

1325 BC (7): Continue moving settler and Northern warriors, writing next turn.

1300 BC (8): Corinth worker complete, start a temple. Mines finished at Thermopylae, start roads.

Writing finishes start Lit for Libraries and posibly the GL!

Write embassy with Zulus for 55 gold, they are building pyramids, 89 turns away, captial is size 3.
Write embassy with Egypt for 65 gold, they are building pyramids, 51 turns away, would we have gotten it, not really sure??

Try to shop writing around but they are low balling, zulus offered 10 gold, Egypt 34. NO trades, yet.

1275 BC (9): Set lux to 20%, missed Thermopylae going into riots :smoke:. Found Delphi on the hills NW of Athens. Start warrior. Research now at 50%, lit in 27 with -1 gpt.

1250 BC (10): MM at Sparta to get settler in 4 growth to 4 in 4. Temple at Thermopylae next turn recommend a warrior to keep the peace and allow lux to be turned down.

Diplo check: Zulus got writing, will now sell to Egypt for their 34 gold. Must be why he only offered 10 for it.


Hotrod

I recommend one warrior at Thermopylae then a barracks to supply vet hopilite to all the cities.




LK 28 - 1250 BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-1250BC.zip)

Workers - The count is up to 3 :)

Diplomacy - not bad - didn't jump the gun and sell writing to soon.
Realized when to grab what you could from Egypt.

Settlers - we are in expansion mode - 1 spotted.

City MM - Sparta is NOT using the double shield grassland where the worker is.
Switch to that save 1 turn on settler.

Summary - Good plan - 1 military city with vet units is something I will NEVER argue with :goodjob:



City Place - V2 - Delphi is a bad location!
I wish I had someplace to refer you guys to for good city placements.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-081.jpg


Consider my placement of the 2 cities.
I gained an ADDITIONAL second ring city
I can NOT stress enough how important this is.
You have a limited number of near capitial - productive city.
The placement of Delphi THREW AWAY A 2nd ring city.
My locations have a solid border lock, and you can snag the hugh dye city block next.

City placement rule #1 - maximize the number of PRODUCTIVE, HIGH SHIELD cities

If I was up I would switch Delphi to Settler and abandon the city - the location is that bad.



hotrod0823 - Playing
Trickey - on deck
Juliennew -
curufinwe -
Chieftess -
rangers85 -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

I wish I had someplace to refer you guys to for good city placements.

A good place for where to place cities? Well, a dotmap from just about any RBD succession game will do, provided the reasons for those sites are included as well. :)

Somewhat off-topic: Sirian, I think the F6 advisor screen has been changed since the 1.16f patch under which RBD7 was played. In a game under 1.21f, I was completely isolated and well behind on tech. WELL behind on tech. Like "I'm researching Mathematics while another civ just completed the Sistine Chapel" isolated. But my science advisor still said that I was "moderately advanced" despite the fact that I was a good 15 techs behind the rest of the world, as I discovered when I made contact. I may have a picture somewhere, but don't count on it. I would guess that this was changed in a patch at some point in time in the past, but regardless my recent experiences VERY strongly suggest that the F6 advisor now compares you only to civs that you have contact with.

Now I know what happens when your wife wants you to shut the darn civ off! :blush:

Hotrod

Oh well thats what training is for I guess.

LK - was it a mistake to veto the Pyramids?

Veto of a wonder is a hard item to give a solid rule to. Outside of the Great Library (especially in always war), and Lighthouse if an island start - I am no longer as big of a fan of ancient wonders. However, what wonders to build is very much a PREFERENCE. The one way it would be weed - if you WASTED shields to do so.

The ancient age is about expansion. The question becomes is the wonder worth less cities, and weaker military - which could lead to an ancient war which general favors the AI.

Now veto of ToE, Smith's, Hoover, etc I would call :smoke: The expansion phase if over, and you are trying to build a economic / shield powerhouse to support your efforts.

can i play now?

hotrod0823 -
Trickey - Playing <<<<<<<
Juliennew - on deck
curufinwe -
Chieftess -
rangers85 -

ok im up, ill have my turns up ny tommorow at noon.

umm... did this game die this quickly?

hotrod0823 -
Trickey (SKIPPED)
Juliennew - Playing <<<<
curufinwe - on deck
Chieftess -
rangers85

Preturn - Leave Delphi on warrior for the moment (will change to settler after the warrior's constructed). Micromanage Sparta. Settler will be finished in 3 turns instead of 4.

1225BC (1) - Athens finish hoplite. Switch to Settler. Fortify the hoplite. Send the warrior who was in Athens to Thermopylae. Thermopylae finish temple. Switch to Barracks. Exploring. One of our warrior attacks a barb camp ---> Our warrior dies. Move the Thermopylae worker to the iron hill to make a road. Switch luxuries to 10% and science to 70%. Litterature in 19 turns instead of 22. +0G/Turn. Exploring

1200 (2) - Thermopylae worker begin road's building on the iron's hill. Exploring.

1175BC (3) - Sparta finish settler. Switch to temple. Exploring.

1150BC (4) - Delphi finish warrior. Switch to settler. 15 turns to go.

1125BC (5) - Thermopylae expands his influence. Iron will soon be available. Managing workers. Exploring.

1100BC (6) - Exploring

1075BC (7) - Athens finish settler. Switch to temple. Pharsalos founded. Zulu's warrior spotted near Pharsalos. Exploring.

1050BC (8) - Iron available. Exploring.

1025BC (9) - Managing workers. Exploring.

1000BC (10) - Thermopylae builds barracks. Switch to Hoplite. Exploring.

State of Greece :
6 Cities
1 settler
3 workers
20% Tax - 70% Science - 10% Luxuries
120 Gold
+0G/per turn
8 turns to go for Literature.

Notes :
We should use Sparta to pump out settlers as soon as his temple is finished. I'm sending the corinth worker to Athens with road building between these cities. As soon as this worker reach Athens, we should use it to develop Athens for max shield in order to build the Great Library when literature will be discovered. The settlers east of Athens is at the spot I wanted him tou found a new city. You can veto it if you think there's a better spot. Like Hotrold said, we should use Thermopylae to pump out vet Hoplites. Only four turns between each of them. We should also pump out some more workers from a town. For Delphi, I'm agree with LK, we should abandon it and follow his city founding plan. The worker near the settler builds a road for the new city connected as soon as possible to Athens. Zulu's warrior cruising near our borders. He's only exploring I think. We must expand fast toward the Zulus now !!

I forgot to upload the save :p
Here it is

Originally posted by Juliennew
As soon as this worker reach Athens, we should use it to develop Athens for max shield in order to build the Great Library when literature will be discovered.

Build the Great Library? In a Regent game? It's not worth the 400 shields it costs to build it. If you're having trouble staying caught up in tech in a Regent game, you have bigger problems than that. Those shields would be far better spent producing more settlers to get more cities faster than in building a wonder for so many turns. Wonders just aren't worth the effort most of the time in Civ3, and especially the Great Library.

Expect LKendter to put a big veto stamp on this, and with good cause.

Workers - Check out the worker by Cornith.
Worker activies -
Rule #1 - Work the best tiles first.
Rule #2 - Irrigation / Mines first -
exception: Resource / luxuries connection critical - then road first

Rule #1 and #2 were broke - There are two grasslands with SHIELDS - develop these first.
We are up to 6 cities, and still 3 workers - we need more.

Diplomacy - Was any performed? You summary gives no clue.
I hope it was simply nothing of interest - you should report in summary if nothing of interest. It looks like you MISSED a trading chance - buy math for < 100 from Egypt - I didn't haggle down.
It is better to buy tech if all known civs have it.

Settlers - we are in expansion mode -
If you intend to abandon Delphi, the city must be in NO FOOD mode. Take the grassland worker and switch to a taxman.

City MM - No critical mistakes.

Summary - You passed on a good idea of your intentions :)

Military - A hoplite every 4 turns with barracks :goodjob:

City Placement - :smoke: Why are we sending a settler below Athens? Read your OWN comment.
We must expand fast toward the Zulus now !!

This city is going the WRONG direction. You want to snag that block of dyes.
Money = Power. Luxuries = money. This game is about resources / luxuries.
Don't believe me - check out LK25. A lot of rivers (extra money) and nice luxuries clumps.
The game was a blowout despite EMPEROR - reason - massive cash flow.

Great Library :hammer: - I agree with Sullla. VETO.
I general prefer to build NO ancient wonders except Colossus.
The ancient era is city expansion time - any wonder during the ancient can cost cities.
I won't consider wonders until the middle ages when expansion mode is done.
My wonder comments were bad before on the Great Library - I meant Always war or isolated start is where it is worth the bother.

hotrod0823 -
Trickey - in limbo - needs to confirm interest or dropped.
Juliennew -
curufinwe - Playing
Chieftess - on deck
rangers85 -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

I gave a visit to Shaka and Cleopatra at the beginning but because of the treasury's not growing, I didn't try to buy Math. The advices are noted. :)

ZZZZZZZZ zzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZ zzzzzzzzzz ..........
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

hotrod0823 -
Trickey - in limbo - needs to confirm interest or dropped - 24 hours to dropped.
Juliennew -
curufinwe - in limbo - needs to confirm interest or dropped.
Chieftess - Playing
rangers85 - on deck

This is getting BAD with dropouts - what is with trainging day games and drop problems??

I am looking for an additional player

I'm sorry but due to an unexpected turn of events I shall be unable to keep up with training days, for civ Democracy game alone exhausts my free time.

hotrod0823 -
Trickey - in limbo - needs to confirm interest or dropped - 24 hours to dropped.
Juliennew -
Chieftess - Playing
rangers85 - on deck

With the above notice -
NEW PLAYER **NEEDED**

ok, grabbing the game and playing...

Turn 0 - 1000BC

Assessing: Ahh!! Even *I* wouldn't place my cities like that! :)
Atleast 2 spaces that won't be used... (and we've got the agressive Zulus to the north. Oh dear...)

Making contact - Shaka is polite. Math for 100 (haggled to 87) - won't trade poly (gasp! 'Poly! :D). Cleo will give math to us for 84 (again, haggled), but won't give us poly. We take math from Egypt for 84 gold.

We're gonna need galleys to compensate for our lack of roads. 3 moves per turn sure beats the settler using up 3 turns in itself! Should have gone for mapmaking first... We are scientific, so libraries will help us, and be cheaper. Putting mapmaking in the science queue.

Athens switched to settler. Settler in 4, growth in 5. MM'd the mined worked tile to another shield grassland tile by the river. A lost of 1 shield (for 5 turns), but also a loss of 1 commerce for 1 turn. (doesn't effect overall income).

Sparta switched from temple to settler. (I know, loss of 2 shields, but we're in expansion mode)...

Turn 1 - 975 BC

Settler built in Sparta. Attempting to use Optimal City Placement (as that's what LKtender (sp?) seems to like to use). I don't like disbanding and rebuilding - seems to take too long... Diplo. check for new trades/willingness to trade. None.

Turn 2 - 950 BC

Switched Thermo to settler. Nothing to trade. Workers connecting cities, as we need the settlers to move, and FAST!

Turn 3 - 925 BC

Continuing to work the roads, and move settlers (we really need gallies...). Diplo check - no new trades.

Turn 4 - 900 BC

We were in Egypt's territory via exploring. Not sure if we should sign an ROP. We do have unused land to the SE, and are on opposite ends of the continent... decided against it. Moved a worked Corinthian tile to one where the worker is building a road. (same tile type).

Turn 5 - 875 BC

Athens builds a settler, starting a hoplite for protection. Diplo check - no new trades.

Turn 6 - 850 BC

Thermo builds a settler, and starts another. Instead, decides we need another worker, and starts that instead. Diplo check - none. Delphi MM'd to put one worked tile onto a tile with roads.

Turn 7 - 825 BC

1 GPT turn deficit noticed. Adjusted science to 50%, and we still get lit. in 2, and +1 gpt. Diplo check - none again.

Turn 8 - 800 BC

Workers working. Diplo check - none again.

Turn 9 - 775 BC

Literature is learned and we start map making (in 24 turns). Several settlers and a worker are built. Building hoplites. Knossos founed on the dyes. Our warrior dies fighting barbarians! Egypt will now trade Polytheism for Literature and WM. Zulus want the same. Polytheism goes towards the Monarchy track. I'll take it from the Egyptians. Reason: I just don't trust the Zulus when they have room to expand. ;) Zulus will give 5 gold and a territory map for lit. Not worth it.

Turn 10 - 750 BC

Corinth completes the temple. We now have 5 settlers moving to the north. I suggest one city 5 spaces NE from Knossos (so their city radii touch, but don't overlap). Diplo check - Egypt has mapmaking but won't trade! grr. Zulus have it too, and want literature, 60 gold (all of our gold), and WM. I think it's worth the adjustment in science. We can get our settlers to places quicker. Set science to 40%. Monarchy in 40, and we're now making 6 GPT.

I should have the review done within 12 hours.

I actually load the game during the review process -
Since I can't PLAY Civ at work...

I could write a book on the problems with this turn.

I will concentrate on 3.

1) Science - :smoke: Monarchy in 40 turn with 40% science.
I cranked to 80% and get 39 turns.
If you can't get much less then 40 turns - drop science to 10%.
This nets $5 more a turn. Over 40 turns = $200.


2) City Placement - GACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You need to follow you previous players lead.
Julienew built Pharalos in anticipation of the abandonment in Delphi. You have 2 cities with HORRID overlap. Rangers85 should switch that city to settler and get RID OF IT.
Disbanding and rebuilding does take long - but there are times to conceded a city is a screw-up and put it out of it misery.


3) Balance - There was none. 100% settlers, then 100% military units.
You must vary your builds based on cities strength.
You must read the previous reports.

City production
Rule #1 - Use the cities strenghts - for example
Heavy food = settlers / workers
Heavy shields = barracks, and military
Heavy income = lots of gold, marketplace, library, etc - avoid settlers, military, etc.

An **EXCELENT** military plan was arrived on - Therm = hoplite factory.

Therm - This is the ONLY city with a barracks to produce veteran units.
This city produced a settler, and is building a worker.
SWITCH TO HOPLITE.

Knossos - This city has at least 75% corruption, and may be 1/1 city.
High corruption cities should NOT BUILD MILITARY unless you can afford to rush it.
This city is good for skim 1 worker, then start temple.

Corinth is highly productive - It would only take 10 turns for a barracks -
either build barracks, then military or granary to speed city growth.

Sparta - Has a granary. You should have built less settlers at once, and build more from Sparta.

Athens - Zero corrution - library if you plan to research yourself.
Settler - you have a granary.
3 double shield grasslands + capitial is 7 shields, with barracks = hoplite every other turn.

I could write a book on this turn and lack of balance.

You need a city production game plan - your building was pure CHAOS.
Forget advancing to Monarch to you have a clear city use plan.


-------------------------

@Chieftess - Did you rush this turn just to get it done.
If so, it would be better to skip.



hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
Chieftess -
rangers85 - Playing
OPEN SLOT - SIGN UP


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

No, that's how I usually play.... :)

I'm lousy at city management (where to place cities, what to build, where/when/what to build, etc.).

I spent 2 hours on it... (Is that enough for 10 turns? Or should it be more?) Plus, you said we were in expansion mode, so I was assuming that we would build lots of settlers... I didn't even know about the city rule of mil for high shields, settlers for high food, etc. Maybe that's one reason I've been stuck in Chieftain/Warlord (the former more than the later) for 11 years!

Yes, chieftain mode was a challenge then for me. :crazyeye:
(and still can be at times...)
*wonders how people could finish at 10 AD or less....*

And yes, a book may be helpful. Something like "Antiquity Age Setup - The First 100 Turns". :D

There is no magic formula for how long a turn should take.

That is the begining of the cities rules.
Sometimes subtle things help much - if you are building artillery and infantry - some cities will take the same time for both, some will build artillery one turn sooner. Guess which cities I build artillery in?

Build cost are based on multiples of 10 - best thing to do, get your cities to multiples of 10. Building a spearman in a 9 shield city = 9+9+9 for 27 shields, 7 wasted shields! Tricks like this become very important at the higher levels.

can i sign up for the open slot?

Got the game, will try to get to it tonight, took my English Freshman Comp I final exam today so still kind of razzled.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Chieftess -
rangers85 - Playing
rctmasta - NEW PLAYER (on deck)

Originally posted by LKendter
There is no magic formula for how long a turn should take.

That is the begining of the cities rules.
Sometimes subtle things help much - if you are building artillery and infantry - some cities will take the same time for both, some will build artillery one turn sooner. Guess which cities I build artillery in?

Umm.. The inner cities? (Really, I don't know..)
I always thought a unit was just a unit... I had one game where I thought I built up enough units to take a city (one city) - in GOTM6 - where Babylon and Persia were on the same continent). I had built up 90 infantry and cavalry, and they ALL LOST to infantry, riflemen, immortals and swordsmen!!! I also rarely build arties, since they rarely seem effective... Also, it seems when ever I build up a force, the AI is always matching me! (makes for some impressive battles sometimes...) That's why I've been more of a builder than a warmonger...

[/b]
Build cost are based on multiples of 10 - best thing to do, get your cities to multiples of 10. Building a spearman in a 9 shield city = 9+9+9 for 27 shields, 7 wasted shields! Tricks like this become very important at the higher levels. [/B]

What about when you can't change it? For example, if the only other tile reduces one shield, but the amount still goes over?

My other question. City placement. :)

I can not for the life of me, tell how a city will grow (end up) in the modern era (with rails, irragation, and mining). So, I end up buildig whereever a spot looks with with as little overlap as possible. I can never seem to scout quick enough when my 2nd settler arrives... (at the start of the game). Some games, I'll even look at the game date (might be 1500 BC), next thing I know, I'm just getting into the middle ages, and it's 1950 AD! :)

OK - I guess Rheotorical (sp?) question didn't work.

If the city builds infantry 3 turns, artillery 2 turns - build artillery.
If the city builds infantry 4 turns, artillery 4 turns - build infantry.

If I'm this lousy, maybe I should hope for a Chieftain Training Day game...! ;)

(any takers?)
Might be a tutorial anyway, for "old newbies".

I do have a suggestion... (atleast maybe in the next training day game, or if you have the patience. :)) Explain each step (i.e., why you chose to put a worked tile on such and such tile in turn 1). Don't take it for granted that newbies, (and people like me, who *still* haven't gotten the hang of city management, and MM..) will know what they're doing. It might even become a book. :)
(with detailed pictures)

I would be in a "chieftain" training day game! Or "warlord." It would be wonderful if someone could lead us and explain each step.

Yes, indeed. It might even become a tutorial book!

stwils

(0) 750 BC
Switch sciences to 10%, gain 5 gpt, 11 gpt. Will help with buying any new sciences available. We have 5 settlers heading north. Mapped out where to put next 5 cities.

(1) 730 BC
Egypt asks us to leave, we do not wanting a war yet. Athens finishes Hoplite, begins Settler in 6, growth to 3 in 4 turns. Begin worker on road to connect Pharsalos to Knossos and in process connect dyes to network, while allowing settlers to be dispatched quicker. Send settlers to desired spots to fit OCP. Send completed Hoplite to Pharsalos for now.

(2) 710 BC
Therm completes Worker, begins Hoplite. Send worker to help connect the north. Egypt has construction, Egypt says "It can't be done", Zulu also has construction, but same reply.

(3) 690 BC
Corinth connected. Settlers continue moving to their spots. 1 reaches will found next turn. Continue exploring Egypt. Neither civ is willing to part with Construction yet. Nothing really interesting.

(4) 670 BC
Egypt demands us leave again. Corinth's borders expand. Argos founded 5 NE of Knossos, begins warrior. Hoplite reaches Pharsalos, fortifies. Zulus are willing to trade Construction for WM, 12 gpt, 42 gold, we respectfully decline, too expensive for my tastes. Cleo wants the same except 11 gpt instead of 12 gpt.

(5) 650 BC
Forbidden Palace now available. Corinth finishes Hoplite. Begins Barracks in 10 to have another military city, never can have too much military. Start sending Hoplite towards Argos. Having a worker begin road to Argos.

(6) 630 BC
Sparta finishes Hoplite. Begins settler in 8. Sends hoplite towards Knossos. Mycenae founded 3 north, 1 NW of Knossos. Captures another horse denying it from the Zulu. Begins on Hoplite in 20 (Already has a warrior that was tagging along. Construction still too expensive. Making 15 gold per turn. Still can't gain any turns on Monarchy within running at a deficit. 1 turn till Settler in Athens.

(7) 610 BC
Settler finished in Athens, begins Hoplite. Settler sent north some to allow next person to decide where to put it. My suggestions will follow. Construction still expensive, but treasury is still building up and I prefer paying cash rather than gpt, so 9 gpt is a lot. According to military advisor, we have an average army compared to Zulu & Egypt.

(8) 590 BC
Knossos 1 road away from being hooked up. Roading the Dyes now and that will be hooked up to almost all our cities soon. 1 settler 1 spot from destination, will be founded last turn of my turns.

(9) 570 BC
Therm completes Hoplite, begins another. Delphi finishes Hoplite, begins Settler. Knossos finishes Warrior, begins Hoplite. Sending completed Hoplites north to help defend some. Herakleia founded 3 north, 1 NW of Argos, begins Warrior.

(10) 550 BC
Egypt demands us leave, we do. Continue sending Hoplites north.

Current state of Greece
10 cities (3 created this turn)
123 gold
17 gpt
Monarchy in 30
Science 10%
Luxery 10%
Tax 80%

Military
3 Settlers
5 Workers
8 Warriors
6 Hoplites

Foreign
Egypt has 10 cities, military forces outnumber us
Zulu has 8 cities, military forces about the same size

Zulus didn't seem to really grow this turn. I don't think they even built a city, Egypt built 1, maybe 2 cities this turn.

The Orange and Pink are the two suggested city sites. The Pink claims the two incense giving us a second lux. The Orange creates a better buffer zone and puts us bordering Zulus to the north. We could add a third city between the borders of Hlobane & Isandhlwana to put some pressure. Also, not sure but the Orange & Pink cities could be moved 1 SW for both, if so, it'd get rid of the wasted square between the orange city and Mycenae, but overlaps 2 squares between Herakleia and the pink.


Also, sorry about missing the thing about Delphi.

Here's the save.

Also, sorry for the pic looking a little weird pasted over my pre-turn picture that I'd mapped out my cities on.

Although, you can see how much we expanded and yes, Zulu built 1 city.

Forgot to attach the file.

Balance - settlers, military - 1 barracks. NO infrastructure.
To narrow of a focus.


City MM - No obvious mistakes, except using undeveloped tiles due to lack of workers.


City Placement -
Also, sorry about missing the thing about Delphi.
Why mistakes are much worse in succession games. Getting them fixed can take forever.
Worse the city is GROWING! - Go to Delphi, create a taxman.

I like seeing the dot map, and the fact you mentioned creating one before placing the cities.
I have played 50+ games, and I still on occasion need to do it.

I didn't realize until now, but Knossos was placed wrong.
This slight misplacement hurt during rangers85 round.
With Knossos up 1 north, we could have placed cities better.

Within the current city layout - move the incense city 2 squares se (hill on ocean).
We still get instant incense, but we snag the cattle square.
The location of the fp is unknown, so work with the idea that any city could become the fp city.


City production -
Corrupt 1/1 city - Build workers, and critical buildings (1 culture building, harbor, etc).
Herakleia should switch to a TEMPLE - Iron goes away, and we should insure the 2nd source get inside our border.
Mycenae is small and corrupt - also a TEMPLE to lock borders - the city has a defender.

Diplomacy - treasury is still building up and I prefer paying cash rather than gpt
[party] - Only pay gpt for something critical
500 shields toward wonder and nothing to switch to (good to buy a wonder related tech)
War and buying improved military such as - knights, cavalry, rifleman, etc.
If broke, I would buy workers gpt as they won't be available next turn.
Luxuries / Resources - Cash may be cheaper, but if possible war gpt is better.


Forbidden palace - Are we going to war soon? If yes, we the decision can wait hoping for a leader.
If NO, we should talk about the FP once out of despotism.


Infrastructure - We have none except for a couple of temples and barracks.


Military - SUCKS.
8 warriors - this unit is a dead-end, stopping at swordsman. Worse, we are building more and all regular.
Concentrate on building units the will upgrade through time. Hoplites go all the way to Mech Infantry.
Except in a critical war situation, it is better to build vet units. In addition - concentrate 2, maybe 3 cities on military production. Early on barracks are too expensive to have in a lot of cities.
We have mapmaking, but ZERO galleys? We should have at least one galley exploring. We could be the first to find a good island. I had a junk 4 square ice island be my ONLY oil source. You want to beat the AI to these islands.
:confused: Therm builds a worker? Please reread my post about using city strengths.

Science - Good job.


Settlers - We are approaching the limit of manageable sites. Sparta is only city on settler - fine - we still have the 2 southern spots to build. Mapmaking is out - the AI **WILL** land troops there to snag those spots. At this point it makes sense to build the cities south of Athens.


Summary - No arguments here.


Workers - 10 cities, 3 more on the way. 5 workers and none being built. CRITICALLY LOW.
1st ring, Low corruption Cornith as is using undeveloped tiles. Workers should improve cities close to the capital first.


hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
Chieftess -
rangers85 -
rctmasta - Playing


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

Well im used to playing Industrious Civs so I planned on getting more done but...

Pre-Turn: Looked around at city production and need for workers. Noticed a warrior near Egypt which ill keep exploring. Changed a few cities to workers.

Turn 1-530 BC: Completed workers in Athens and Pharsalos, Started Athens on a library and Pharsalos on a galley. Built the city of Ephesus and started them on a hoplite.

Turn 2-510 BC: Sparta finished a settler and Thermopylae made a worker. Started Sparta on a hoplite and Thermopylae on a galley (15 turns faster then Pharsalos), Switched Pharsalos to hoplite, moved a settler down to the ice covered tip. Founded Thessalonica where we can get more iron. Egypt and Zulu are asking for all our gold, our map, and gold per turn so no trades.

Turn 3-490 BC: Started Rhodes where we can get 2 incense and started them on a worker. Moved some various units around and did some city improving.

Turn 4-470 BC: Corinth finished barracks and started hoplite. Delphi finished worker and started barracks. Argos finished warrior and started worker.

Turn 5-450 BC: Get the settler into position and... a barbarian attacks, taking it. Other then that nothing really happened everyone and every city was in the middle of something. Just checked up on things.

Turn 6-430 BC: Move warrior to attack barbarian camp and extra barbarian. Quiet time like last turn.

Turn 7-410 BC: Kill a barbarian and have another quiet time. With everyone working theres nothing to do. Check up on Zulu and Egypt but nothing.

Turn 8-390 BC: Corinth finishes hoplite and starts library.

Turn 9-370 BC: Thermopylae finishes hoplite and starts another one. Egypt finishes pyramids. Destroy the barbarian camp.

Turn 10-350 BC: Athens finishes library and starts barracks. Sparta finishes galley and starts library.

Nothing very important happened. We should get faster technology now, at least a little faster. City improvements will be better, so faster production. And a galley was made to explore.

BAD ZIP FILE.

Please try again, makeing a new link with a DIFFERENT NAME.

rctmasta, did ya check with Zulu & Egypt on their prices for Construction. It should be coming down any time now.

i checked them both every turn, they were constant with asking for all our gold, our world map, and gold per turn

New Zip File -
I hope it works and sorry about the messed up one

What program are you using to zip the file?

I keep getting the error "End-of-central-directory signature not found. Either this file is not a Zip file, or it constitutes one disk of a multi-part Zip file."

@rctmasta

I suggest posting the .sav file directly for know.
I will be able to review the game in about 18 hours.

We still should figure out what is going on with winzip.

We will soon finish our expansion mode and enter the middle ages. We should think of the direction we will now take.
- Warmongering
Build several horsemens and go straight to Chivalry in order to have several knights very quickly to attack the Zulus.
Possible victories types : Conquest or domination
Wonders suggested : Sun Tzu and Leo
or
- Colonization of other continents
Maximize construction of settlers and galleys
Possible Victory types : Domination (with warmongering later) or space race (with infrastructure building later) or diplomatic
Wonders suggested : Great Lightouse (Is it already constructed by another nation ?), Magellan
or
- Mass infrastructure building
maximize science and happiness wonders
Possible victory types : Space race or diplomatic
Wonders recommended : Sistine Chapel, JS Bach Cathedral, Newton, Copernic, Adam Smith

Wich direction do you want to take ?
Depending of Shaka's mood toward us and his power. For the moment, I lean toward an expansion in other islands.

Hrmm... hope this works

Turn 5-450 BC: Get the settler into position and... a barbarian attacks, taking it.
Well the lack of military / focus just killed us. 30 shields and 2 pop points flushed.
Why - to many settler built WITHOUT MILITARY ESCORT.
Once you are past 5 to 6 cities, ALL settlers should be escorted with military.


City Placement - Thess should have been either 1 square n or nw.
This still would have locked the Iron within our borders NOW, and cut down the overlap.

Why do we still have Delphi - abandon the city - move it w (game), then sw.
I am going to yell about this one every round.
Mistakes are bad enough - not fixing is worse.

Ephesus has EXTREME overlap - this city should NOT have been built - this is on my abandon list.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-083.jpg

Look at the future borders to the other 3 cities after cultural expansion.
Look at the black border to Ephesus - this covers ZERO new squares!
This location is worse then Delphi.


Important rule about cities - optimal city number.
Every city about that number adds NO shields / gold before the effects of fp / courthouses.
To many closely packed cities create a bunch of lower production cities.


Thermopylae made a worker.
City production - WT??? DID ANYONE READ MY COMMENTS ON USING CITY STRENGTHS?
This city was set up to build vet hoplites, use the cities strength!

REPEAT:
Corrupt 1/1 cities - Build workers, and critical buildings (1 culture building, harbor, etc).
We are still wasting Mycenae on building an hoplite.


Diplomacy - I saw a post about checking every turn. However I checked.
Egypt has a worker for sale - always buy other civ workers.
I have bought a worker at 3500 BC and crippled my opponent just by that action.
The worker doesn't just help you - it hurts the other civ - Well worth ~$27.

Construction is available pre-haggle for $240 for Egypt - haggles to about $216 - 10% less then asking price.
Philosophy for $70 (pre-haggle).
1st is Construction for Aqueducts, then worker, then Philosphy (techs don't go away, workers do).


Forbidden palace - Are we going to war soon? If yes, we the decision can wait hoping for a leader.
If NO, we should talk about the FP once out of despotism.


Settlers - NONE? There are still 2 cities to build south of Athens.


Summary - Not much of one - you should try to give the next player of clue of anything important.


Workers - Rule #4 - improve square near the productive cities first.
Therm, Sparta, and Ahtens have no workers (3 of our 4 best cities).
REPEATING: Rule #2 - Irrigation / Mines first -
exception: Resource / luxuries connection critical or getting city on road-net.
Not being followed by Cornith and worthless Delphi.

9 exists, 2 under construction - numbers looking good, but we should have 1 more bought worker.



hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew - on deck
Chieftess -
rangers85 -
rctmasta -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

I have the game and will try to play and post tonight.

Hotrod

350 BC (0): Change Delphi to settler. Reduce Lux to 0%. Change Mycenae to from Hopilite to temple. Change Athens to Settler. Change Argos to Temple. Change Konossos to Temple. Change Corinth to Hopolite, with barrack will get vet units to the front along with Thermopylae. Buy Egyptian worker for 27 gold. Buy Construcion for 216, bought Philo for 60 gold and WM.

330 BC (1): Egyptian worker begins mines at Athens. Continue movement of Hoplite to Zulu front. OH NO! 3 workers went on Auto, I lost all three turns of movement. :(.

310 BC (2): Some worker movement. Move a warrior back toward Herakleia for MP duty until vet hops arrive from the south. Trade Zulus 73 gold and 2 gpt for Code of Laws.

290 BC (3): Rhodes builds worker starts Temple. Chinese Complete Great Library. Change Ephesus to a settler to move city to a new location.

270 BC (4): Thermo. builds hoplite starts another (5 turns), Athens finishes settler and starts another. Zulus start Oracle, Egypt starts Hanging gardens, Monarchy. So does Zulus both want all our gold and 12 or 13 gpt. NO trades at those prices.

IBTN: Egypt starts oracle, England builds oracle.

250 BC (5): Athens finishes settler starts another. Settler heading to far East Coast.

IBTN: Zulus start Hanging Gardens. Babylon finishes Great Wall.

230 BC (6): Corinth build hoplite and starts Library. Getting Irrigation from the North (Herakleia) to the south has to be the next worker priority. Mycenae and Argos are stuck at 2 without irrigation. Watch out at Sparta will grow in 3 turns but will be in riots without temple or lux switch from Library to temple.

210 BC (7): Settler almost in position to the East. Continue moving vet hops to the northern cities.

190 BC (8): Continue moving hops, Workers heading to north to begin irrigation southward.

170 Bc (9): Delphi settler complete, city abandoned and "moved" to location 1SW of Game. Found Delphi again on the East coast, due west of the game to have zero overlap with Thermo or Athens. Increase lux to 10% for one turn beform Sparta completes the temple. Both Egypt and Zulu still only have Monarchy but still way too expensive.

IBTW : Zulus complete Hanging Gardens

150 BC (10): Found Eretria with old delphi settler SW of game on the coast. Starts temple.

Workers near Herakleia should begin irrigation and move it tot he SW tward Mycenae then East to Argos and then south.
Each Southern city has a worker and the Northern workers are working together to bring water south. As far as production, Thermo built quite a few hops but some more are still needed to have a vet unit in each city. Most cities are on temples, some may be whipped in the future before the govt change. Research still remains at 10%, Repulic is an option now with the addition of COL and Philo but stayed with Monarchy.
Egypt and Zulus trade everything they get back and forth. They both have Monarchy but nothing else. Libraries should be in order for the core southern cities to improve the research rates. One galley is out now another should be built soon to try and find the other civs. Contempleted the Great Lighthouse but decided against it.

Gold in the Bank: 172, Research 10%, Lux 0%, Monarchy in 10 turns @ +24 gpt.

Hotrod



Here is the save:
LK28 150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lk28-150bc.zip)

OH NO! 3 workers went on Auto, I lost all three turns of movement.
Succession game cooperation rule #1
Never leave goto orders into the next Person's turn.
Never Automate workers except very late with Shift-P

City Placement - Delphi is moved [party]
Ephesus is looking to move - however :smoke: Must be set to ZERO growth THIS TURN!


City production - Low production cities concentrating on buildings - correct.


Diplomacy - Buy a worker [dance]
Trade Zulus 73 gold and 2 gpt for Code of Laws.
Rule #1 The only reason to buy with GPT
The tech is critical - need better military (chivalry, knights), a new wonder target.
You think you can broker the tech to other civs and make a lot of money.
Generally it is cheaper to buy straight cash.

Military - Getting better. A second city with barracks building military wouldn't hurt.


Settlers - I see one to build the dye in ice city - you never know, oil could show up there!

Workers -
Workers near Herakleia should begin irrigation and move it tot he SW tward Mycenae then East to Argos and then

south.
EXCELLENT plan. Much better then mining plains. You can get irragation all the way to Pharsolos.
My nit picks -
Herakelia is hopelessly corrupt for now - why are with wasteing time mining a hill.
That worker could join the irragation plan.
Mining by Pharsalos? - There is a shield grassland to work FIRST.



hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
Chieftess - on deck
rangers85 -
rctmasta -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

Preturn - Cancel the hill's mining near Herakleia to put the worker in the irrigation's project - Micromanage Ephesus to put zero food - Giving a courtesy visit to Cleo and Shaka ---> Monarchy still too expensive - No workers to sell.

130BC (1) - Cleo propose me her world map against mine with 18G. She doesn't accord me any rebate but I accept. Sadly, no valuable land discovered - Using Argos worker to connect Northern cities - Beginning irrigation's project with 3 workers (2 workers to irrigate / 1 worker to construct roads) - Athens finish settler - switch to worker (4 turns to grow/4 turns to summon the worker ;) ) - Corinth finish Library ---> This city is a high productive city and has a barracks, I'm using to pump out some more hoplites for the moment (3 turns between them) - Abandon Ephesus - Exploring

110BC (2) - Moving - Exploring - Monarchy still too expensive (They demand all our gold and 4G/per turn !!)

90BC (3) - Thermopylae finish Hoplite - Beginning another one - Monarchy still too expensive - No workers to sell

70BC (4) - Moving - Exploring - Monarchy at 222G with the Egyptians - Still too expensive, we have 235G - Zulus learned Currency - No workers to sell

50BC (5) - Athens finish worker- switch to Temple - Moving - Exploring - Trade Currency with Cleo for 167G - We enter the middle ages - We learn Monotheism !! - Trading Monotheism with Cleo for Monarchy, Republic, all her gold (250G) and her world map !! - Shaka has nothing to trade for Monotheism - Researching Feudalism - Change Athens to Marketplace - With the sudden appearance of these new ways of conduction the Greek society, the people is revolting !! (Arrggh, 7 turns before a new gov emerges ...) - Micromanaging cities in order to prevent them from rioting -

30BC (6) - Moving - Exploring - Ephesus founded - put Temple in the queue

10BC (7) - Moving - Exploring

10AD (8) - Moving - Exploring

30AD (9) - Moving - Exploring

50AD (10) - Troy founded with settler brang from Ephesus - Put Temple in the queue - Moving - Exploring - Nothing to trade with Shaka or Cleo

Notes and suggestions :
Because of our lack and infrastructure and luxuries, I propose switching to Monarchy. We should also buid some merketplaces in highly commercial cities in order to prevent some deficit. Monarchy will leave us with more units to support with our treasury.
Now we must concentrate highly on infrastructure (workers + buidlings) but we should also let one or two cities exclusively buidling military units in case of war with the Zulus (Shaka's mood is "cautious"). On the other side, we have good relations with Cleo.
We should build a galley in Thermopylae in order to explore the eastern side of the continent.

Errors :
I forgot to order the Pharsalos worker to improve shielded grassland instead of the hill.
I should have built a galley in Thermypolae ASAP.

Here is the baby

One last important thing : Buid some horsemen in order to upgrade them when we will have Chivalry. With this, we will have several knights ready for war far before anyone else ;)

I will review the game in the morning - I just got home from my flight and I am ready to collapse.

City Placement - Ephesus location - should have been 1 tile ne. This would have given the city access to 2 grassland and a forest that could become grassland.
Troy location - A bit agressive, but since the Zulu are lousy at building culture should be ok.


City production - I would switch Sparta to marketplace. Cash flow is more important then research right now.


City MM - All of our cities need to be reviewed!
Cornith is useing 2 unimproved tiles when mined grassland is available.
Spart is not using 2 mined grassland.
Therm is not using a mined grassland (double shield)
3 of our best cities are NOT optimized.


Diplomacy - A great trade in 50BC.


Military - I agree with Juliennew, we should squeeze a few horesman in anticipating knights.


Settlers - The only reason to build them right now is if we anticipate war to fill in the gaps. This would include a Egypt / Zulu war if some of the cities are razed.


Summary - I agree on the Monarchy comment - we have just 1 luxury, very little marketplaces. This civ would not support Republic very well.


Workers - We are leaving depositism. It is time to start irragation some grassland.
Irragated grassland + mined hill = 4 food, 3 shields. This is a very powerful combination to create powerhouse cities.
Take a look at the below picture. This is a MINIMAL amount of irragation just to get all of the hills / mountains on-line at just 2 food for growth. Reality is we could use some more irragation
beyond what I propose. Blue lines = irragtion. The other colors show irragation and the matching
tile to be used.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-084.jpg


The first phase of the game is complete. The initial expansion is done. We are know in the infrastructure phase of the game.

The Greek empire does have a major challenge - just 1 luxury. We really need to build aqueducts to get to size 12, but with just one luxury - expect to raise the luxury tax! We will have to build
cathedrals in all cities > size 6. For now, I would avoid aqueducts in our 1 shield cities.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Chieftess - Playing
rangers85 - on deck
rctmasta -


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

Lee,
I hope this taken as spam, but I have a question. In another thread today you mentioned you're going to give up SG's. Does this include training games? I was hoping to get in on your next regent training game whenever that was.
Just curious.
Matt

I suspect your meant "this ISN'T take as spam".

I am in limbo on what to do with additional sg as the moment.
I will not make a final decision until early August.

If you want - you can be player #6 in this game.

Originally posted by LKendter
I suspect your meant "this ISN'T take as spam".

Yep, that's what I meant. Kinda left out an entire word,
Sheesh. :o

Originally posted by LKendter
If you want - you can be player #6 in this game.

I don't have the time this week, but I certainly appreciate the offer. If you decide, come August, to continue, I will definitely be here for that. I hope you do Lee because I think it would be a great loss for us newbies if you quit doing the training games.
I can certainly understand why you're leaning that way though. The time demands must be pretty substantial, along with the burnout factor.

Matt

I would like to come on board in August for a new Training Game. I wouldn't mind if it were at the Warlord level. :)

I've tried to follow this game, though I'm a bit behind downloading the saved games and trying to play it out myself.

Lee, I hope you will stay with us. We need good tutors and you are certainly one of those.

stwils

I will download the game tonight, and play sometime tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow night. I had to visit my grandfather at the hospital today, and tomorrow, my family wants to go on a little day trip... If tomorrow night is too late, then you could skip me.

@Chieftess - How goes it?
Will you finish within 24 hours?

A recent incident in on of my succession games has made me realize that I am suffering from Civ3 burnout. I have been beating myself up for the last few days trying to figure out why it happened – this alone is not a good thing.

Trying to figure things out I have realized

1) In the last few games I am finding myself becoming too possessive of my games to the point of it being detrimental to the games. I have always been critical of bad moves (IE - why are we developing a tile no city can use?) - but recently I have become critical of moves that are not clearly bad.
2) I was pissed this weekend when 3 of the games I am came due. I have limited at home time with traveling out of town for work. I need to get to the point this can't happen again.
3) The really bad one real life frustration is creeping into my Civ3 message board posts .
4) Due to time constraints I am finding myself needing to actively post, not just read, these boards at work. Not a good situation with a boss who hates the Internet.
I could list more, but this is enough to explain my thoughts.

I will close out the games I am currently playing in. However, expect some skips - especially when I am on vacation from 7/26/02 to 8/4/02. Nothing has disgusted me on these boards more then seeing someone start a game, then putting no effort to see the game complete.

Based on this the LK series will be going into very limited mode after the current group finished – mostly games I don’t play in. It sounds weird, but the game I am enjoying the most right know is LK28 where I am not an active player - even with the need to review the game every couple of days.

Originally posted by Architect under LK29 thread
Are we going to upgrade to 1.29 for this game when it comes out this week?


I always upgrade to the latest patch as soon as it comes it.
Yes, we will upgrade to the newest version.

Busy weekend...

I had to visit my grandfather at the hospital (he just got out then, and we went to the nursing home were he's in rehab). And yesterday, my family and I went on a day trip. But, I'm back now, and I'll be able to play tonight. :)

Got the game and I'm playing right now.

Turn 0 - 50 AD

Assessing situation. We are in anarchy, and the Zulus seem weak culturally. Cultural Assualt time! ;) Looks like we'll need lots of gold to rush temples and libraries. Our military is average to the Zulus, and weak compared to the Egyptians. The Zulu road system is almost non existant. Egypt's is a little better, and is about equal to ours (some unconnected cities). We are also losing 2 gpt. Mycenae has an unconnected horseman (knights are near). Egypt is equal to us in techs (has 34 gold), while the Zulus lack monotheism (has 2 gold).

MM'ing cities. Put Ephesus worked tile on dyes. Putting Troy on grass (worked tile) so it can grow quicker. Corruption nullifies the shield output. (then again, we're in anarchy, so I can't tell! :)) MM'd other cities accordingly.

Resource Assessment - We only have dyes. Our incense is unconnected. Marketplaces will have minimal effect, since we have less than 3 luxs. Egypt has elephants (Ivory) and lots of them, but no dyes! The Zulus have incense, but also no dyes.

Turn 1 - 70 AD

History of the world. We're 6th in happiness. Also on the list:
Egypt, India, English, Germans, Chinese, Greeks (us), Zulus, Babylon.

Diplomacy: nothing.
Zulus now have 5 gold. Must be making 3 gpt. Egypt has 34 gold - no change from last turn.

Workers continuing to work. (none free yet). One is moved from the hill by Corith to the Spartian cow. :)

Turn 2 - 90 AD

We are a monarchy! +22 GPT! (WOW!)

Adjusting science. 60%, fuedilism in 26 turns, -2 gpt. 50%, 28 turns, 0 gpt. Any lower, and it's 40 turns. MM'd some cities with entertainers that were not needed. We'll need to rush our temples, so I'm setting the gpt up high. China already has the GL... :(

No one can trade yet. Nothing from dimplomacy. I also put science to 10%, as 40 turns is better than nothing, and we make 23gpt.
Rushed a temple in Thessaloncia, a 1spt city.

Turn 3 - 110 AD

Exploring with galley. Thermo changed to galley so we can have an eastern galley. Diplo - nothing.

Turn 4 - 130 AD

Sparta starts a market place. Diplo: nothing.
Workers working on worked tiles. (building roads)

Turn 5 - 150 AD

Thermo builds a galley, and starts on horseman. (shudders at the horseman hordes in GOTM9)

Turn 6 - 170 AD

Corinth starts on horseman. Pharsalos builds a temple, and starts a library. Building roads between Herklia and Rhodes. Zulus now have dyes, but are not connected. Diplo - traded maps for maps with Egypt. Road to Rhodes complete. Why is the plain by Mycenae mined? Changing to irragation. Diplo: nothing.

Turn 7 - 190 AD

Thess expands! Temple rushed in Troy. Scouting with galleys on both sides. Nothing yet. Diplo: nothing.

Turn 8 - 210 AD

Horsie in Corinth, another started. Start barracks in Troy incase we want to send our units up north for a possible attack, and need them upgraded.
Diplo: Nothing.

Turn 9 - 230 AD

Thermo builds a horsie, and starts another. Diplo: Nothing.
continue scouting and building roads. Changed my mind on the Troy barracks, and start a library for culture.

Turn 10 - 250 AD

Egyptian setter and warrior moving through Hlobane. Might want to block them. Diplo: Nothing.

City production - We are not actively researching (10% is consider slow paced).
Because of this it would be better to build the marketplace first in Pharsalos.


City MM - Several of the cities are running sub-optimal.
However, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Check out how what I did just with Knossos - I gained food and shields.
This could be done with several cities.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-085.jpg



Military - I see a couple of future knights being built :goodjob:


Rush builds - Thess / Troy for temples were a good choice. Border cities are the most important place for culture.
In addition, they were 1 shield cities. General you should rush in low production cities.


Science - Some times 10% is the best option.


Workers -
Rule #5 - Improve UNUSED tiles before destroying existing improvements.
The worker by sparta should NOT be irragation the city tile that is mined.
You can move one space se and get additional irragation to Sparta.
However, Sparta should be LOW on the irragation list - it already is +2 food despite the entertainer.
It will be +4 after that wastage is gone.

The first phase of the game is complete. The initial expansion is done.
We are know in the infrastructure phase of the game.



hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Chieftess - NOTE: I really should have skipped you this round.
rangers85 - Playing
rctmasta - on deck


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

rangers85 - OVERDUE

Sorry, haven't been home much the last day and a half, but I was checking forever for my turn to come up before that. Got the game, will play it in a little bit.

(0) 250 AD
MM Sparta, move a worker from the coast to roaded grassland, net benefit, 1 additional food. Take worker off of irrigating the Spartan tile and send it to newly worked tile by Sparta to mine. Took LK's advice on Knossos and changed the workers, net benefit, 1 shield, 1 food, net loss, 1 commerce, but it was going to corruption anyways.

(1) 260 AD
Egypt asks us to leave her territory, we tell her we will. Corinth finishes horseman, begins another horsie; Knossos finishes Temple, begins Barracks for a closer staging area incase of a future Zulu war. Troy now connected by road. Incense will be connected in 1 turn. Send extra workers from Troy to connect Thess and irrigate. Continue exploring with Galleys. Egyptians Warrior/Settler stack starts coming towards us near Troy.

(2) 270 AD
Therm finish horsie, begin another. Trop Expands. Egyptians are building Sun Tzu. Egyptians have Feudalism, but we don't have enough to acquire it. Zulu with 2 gold, still not enough to buy Monotheism from us. 18 gpt currently. Send a horsie to Sparta for military police. No entertainer needed now. Incense connected. Change plans with workers on way to Thess, send to Rhodes instead to improve a undeveloped tile being worked. Send another worker to connect other Incense for future trading with Egypt. Egyptian stack enters Troy's culture realm from Hlobane. Most probably heading to open space between Argos and Herakleia of desert, must be future oil or something there. Rush temple in Herakleia for 56 gold. This will close our borders there.

(3) 280 AD
Herk finishes Temple, begins worker; Thess finishes worker, begins another worker. Babylon finishes Great Lighthouse in Nineveh. Egypt stack continues moving stack SW, may be heading west of Isandhlwana instead. Not much else happened.

(4) 290 AD
Corinth finishes horsie, begins another horse. Workers still irrigating northern plains.

(5) 300 AD
Egyptian stack takes a turn to the SE, looks like they may very well be heading for those deserts. Athens finishes Marketplace, begins Temple. Therm finishes Horsie, begins another horsie. Delphi goes into disorder, my fault, missed that city in the check. Horsie dispatched for Delphi. Phar finishes Library, begins Galley for a suicide run at the stretch of Sea I see at the bend in the continent. Galleys still exploring to see if they find any other possible sea routes.

(6) 310 AD
Delphi finishes Temple, begins Barracks, Egypt stack continues SE, now 2 tiles NW of Rhodes. Definately heading into our area some. Next turn Herakleia expands closing that gap, leaving very south end of continent as only opening, which will be filled before long too.

(7) 320 AD
Corinth finishes Horsie, begins Aquaduct; Indian city of Madras finishes Colossus. Herak expands. Seems Egypt realized their prize is gone. They've begun heading NE again.

(8) 330 AD
Therm finishes Horsie, begins horsie, move workers, getting irrigation to Argos.

(9) 340 AD
Sparta finishes Marketplace, begins Galley to give a backup for a suicide run. Argos finishes Temple, begins Worker. Egypt stack now out of Greek territory. 2nd incense hooked up. Workers finish some irrigation, start some more on the plains.

(10) 350 AD
Our southern galley defeats a barb galley in the east side. Delphi's border expands. Eretia finishes Temple, begins Library. Galleys about to meet on East end.



I think our best chance of possibly finding the other world on a suicide run would be just east of Rhodes. The Sea expands out quite a bit right there. Also, if we can, we might look at claiming the 3 ivory square up by where the Galleys are now. Could help us come time to trade, especially if the other continent is more advanced than us. Also, east of Argos is a 1 square sea. Either way is probably a decent chance of finding something, or a sea to no where. Either way, it may be worth the risk if we can make first contact and broker those contacts.

Egyptian stack enters Troy's culture realm from Hlobane. Most probably heading to open space between Argos and

Herakleia of desert, must be future oil or something there. Rush temple in Herakleia for 56 gold. This will close our borders

there.
I don't know if the was a big enough area for Egypt to claim, but it is good to play it safe.


City production - Knossos is suffering from almost 50% wastages - build a courthouse.
Unless there is a critical need (at war) - always building courthouses quickly
Barracks is a waste of time right now. War is a battle of economies, build a strong economy and you will win wars.
:confused: Eretria library in process, Pharsalos completes library? This order is WRONG. Build the marketplaces first so

that you have the extra cash flow to afford the libraries.
Sparta is STUCK at size 6 - the galley can wait - build an aqueduct. Large cities = large economy.


City MM - I check the core cities - no arguements.


Diplomacy - When was the last time we sold world map?
Zulu with give $12, Egypt $4. This is almost a full turns income.
We have nothing to hide at the moment.


Forbidden palace - The time to build it is NOW.
There is no reason to wait.
Herakleia has 2 commmerce, there it is NOT hopeless corrupt.
Switch the city to courthouse - rush as soon as we have the cash - start the fp.
mm the city to use the overlaping plains - join a couple of workers - we can have the fp within 50 turns.
This will pretty much win the game.


Workers - Knossos is mining a plain - WT?? - The city has one food to spare.
The worker should either mining the grassland 1 square south, or join the irragated worker by Argos.

UNLESS WE PLAN TO BUILD THE FP WHERE IS SUGGEST, MOST OF THE WORKERS ON IN THE WRONG AREA!
Workers should concentrate around the productive core.
Most of our workers are helping the low production cities.

Time to yell
Please reread my comments about irragation by the core cities (Athens, Thess, etc)

To make these cities usefull - we must irragate some squares.


hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
Chieftess -
rangers85 -
rctmasta - Playing

Lee I am checking in to let you all know I will be away this weekend and returning on Sunday. I am on deck so either move me down the order or skip me altogther. These last two rounds went pretty much as scheduled so if you just skip I should be able to pick up the rotation on Sunday in my regular spot.

Also, will this be a patched game. Lee are you finishing the epics or letting them slide to patch on Friday? Maybe you are done already I see you sig has changed. ;). If Sirian continues his TDG I may have a problem. He seems to be pretty firm on his options to patch or not to patch. Just have to wait an see.

Hotrod

I am already patched. Greece will appreiciate the patch - commercial is much better under this 1.29. As soon as a player plays with the game patched, we will be patched.



EXIII has been long completed - I think it can leave your current playing list ;)

I sent a PM to RctMasta yesterday.

hotrod0823 - on deck (fliped per out of town message)
Juliennew - Playing <<<<
Chieftess -
rangers85 -
rctmasta - SKIPPED

Thought I changed that :lol:.

I am back but haven't patched yet will check back later to see if the current turn has been completed.

Hotrod

I have mine patched. The demogame accidently went into 1.29f, so I have to be patched anyway. :)

:scan:
hotrod0823 - ???
Juliennew - ???
:scan:

The first of the above to post got it will play next.
Let's get this one rolling again.

I got it. Expect a report within an hour.

I will play tonight provided julie completes and Lee critiques.

Hotrod

Sorry for the delay, I was out to find SMAC. I didn't find it anyway :(

Preturn - Quick review of the cities :
- Micromanage Argos
- Switch Sparta to aqueduct
- Switch Pharsalos to courthouse
- Switch Eretria to Courthouse
- Switch Troy to couthouse

Changes some workers's tasks

360AD (1) - Athens finish temple, switch to colosseum

(will riot quite soon) - Thermopylae finish horseman,

switch to aqueduct - Sending some workers to bring

irrigation to the south - Moving galleys
370AD (2) - Knossos finish barracks, switch to

courthouse - Moving galleys
380AD (3) - Herakleia finish worker, switch to

courthouse (planning to rush the courthouse in this

city and to build the Forbidden palace here) -

Thessalonica finish worker, switch to courthouse -

Moving galleys - Trading WM for WM + 2G with Cleo -

Trading WM for 20G with Shaka
390AD (4) - Delphi finish barracks, switch to

horseman - Argos finish worker, switch to courthouse

- Ephesus finish temple, switch to hoplite (no units

in this city) - Rush courthouse in Herakleia (316G)
400AD (5) - Herakleia finish courthouse, switch to

Forbidden Palace (100 turns) ---> I'm going to

improve the hill near the city and use the forest to

make it faster - Cleo has good luxuries to trade, I

will try to make a road between Troy and

Hlobane;Perhaps it will enable trade routes
410AD (6) - Mycenae finish temple, switch to

courthouse
420AD (7) - Corinth finish aqueduct - switch to

marketplace - Cleo begins the Sistine Chapel
430AD (8) - Trading Monotheism for Feudalism + 13G +

WM with Shaka - Switch research to Chivalry (40turns)

- Switch science to 30% (30 turns / + 5G/per turn)
440AD (9) - Delphi finish horseman, begin another one

- Ephesus finish hoplite, switch to harbor (for food)
450AD (10) - Pharsalos finish courthouse, switch to

Marketplace

Notes and suggestions :
We should trade with Cleo as soon as possible. She

has Ivory to trade and she will go for our dyes or

incense. I think the road between Hlobane and Troy

will permit this trade.
Noone is building the Sun Tzu on our continent. I

think we should switch Athens to it as soon as the

colosseum is finished.
We should also continue a close friendship with Cleo.

She could be of some help if a war between the Zulus

and us occurs.
We should try to improve production of Herakleia.

There's still a huge number of turns the Forbidden

Palace is finished.

Here it is.

380AD (3) - Herakleia finish worker, switch to courthouse (planning to rush the courthouse in this city and to build the Forbidden palace here)

---> I'm going to improve the hill near the city and use the forest to make it faster


I will review in detail in about 5 hours.

I see one glaring mistake this round. We should have switched from worker to courthouse.

1) It could have been rushed sooner.
2) Why shrink city size for a city building the FP? During my test, I had it at 40 turns - reason - larger city.

Any city planning to build a small or large wonder should NOT build a worker / settler before starting that wonder.

The second mistake - improve hill and use forest? NO! Let the city grow to size 6 - that will have more production then a forest / hill could. NEVER stunt the growth of a city building a wonder. Best solution to get it to grow faster - merge some workers into the city.

LK, sorry to have to drop out, but my time over the coming month is going to be limited, so I don't think I will have the time to keep up with this game. However, if time allows as a later date, I'll check back to see what's going on and if there's an opening.

switch to colosseum (will riot quite soon)
Subtle, but very important thing here - FUTURE thinking.
I think the AI tends to be reactive, so proactive is a human advantage.


City production - VETO - courthouses in Troy, Thess, Mycenae, Argos. Failure for future thinking here.
When the FP comes online, all theses cities will be with 5 squares of the fp - the courthouse effect will be minimal.
Almost any other building (market, cath, aqueduct) or even more workers would be better.
Athens - colosseum = 2 content, cathedral = 3 content. Maintenance cost is the same, cathedral = more culture.
For a permanent building, cathedral before colosseum.


City MM - I check the core cities - Therm growth is stunted - 1 food gain - when the irragation comes use it.
Sparta - a short term trick was miss - granary is maxed - switch to high shields until the aqueduct is built -
The city right know is 8 shields after corruption, it could have been 10 shields after, getting the aqueduct a bit ealier.
Cornith - working UNDEVLOPED squares - keep reading my worker comments.


Forbidden palace - Read the post above about the FP.
Following the leave Herakleia alone plan:
As of 550 AD - 57 turns to go.
Now my plan USING Julienew turn:
Rush workers in Thess / Mycenae for $36.
As of 480 AD - 3 workers joined, and MM for shield.
As of 550 AD - 30 turns to go.
This is a hugh difference to get the north productive.
Now the time warp plan replaying Julienew turn:
350 AD - Switch to courthouse, not enough rush money.
370 AD - Join 2 workers to the city.
380 AD - Courthouse is rushed - fp is ordered.
440 AD - Join final worker.
460 AD - MM to use to hills with mines - temp zero growth.
As of 550 AD - just 15 turns to build.

Science - :confused: Are we planing war shortly? If not, Theology would be a much better choice.
The AI takes forever to get to Chivarly. However, we have just TWO natural luxuries.
Sistine Chappel and double strength Cathedrals would be very valueable here.


Workers - By Delphi - shields / irragation before roads - more benefit by mining the grassland 1 square nw.
Hill by Herak - A little trick, the hill west of the city can also be used by Thess.
This gives you the flexibity to switch the tile between the cities as needed.
Rule #6 - Improve shared tiles first - if logical - it gives you more flexibility.
I can't figure out what the worker by Athens / mountain was up to.

Workers should concentrate around the productive core. Most of our workers are helping the low production cities.
Concentrate on our current productive cities first, we have just 2 workers by Athends.


hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew - (flipped order)
Chieftess - on deck
rctmasta -
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

How can you tell if a city will be unhappy when it grows? I could never tell that...

At some point you can tell almost on auto-pilot.
Until then -
1) right click and zoom to city - count people. 2 happy, 3 content, 2 unhappy. Riot with city growth.
2) F2 - look at the unhappy people. If you see a lot, perform the same count. In theory you should do this for all cities - reality, I check mostly the core cities.

I have the game. Will try to play and post tonight.

Hotrod

LK 28

450 AD (0): Change Athens to Cathedral. Change research to theology, in 28 turns at 40%, +0 gpt.
Thesalonica change to worker rushed for 12 gold, Change Mycenae to worker, rushed for 24 gold. Change Troy to barracks, will be productive city after the FP and will provide front lines with vet troups. Change Argos to Library. Change Knossos to Library. Change Pharsalos to Aqueduct and MM to get aqueduct in 12 with zero growth. Max shields will get it in 10 but loses 2 food per turn and changes theo from 28 to 30 turns. Change Delphi to Library from horseman.

460 AD (1): Mycenae produces worker, starts Library. Thesalonica produces worker starts Library. Misc worker movement, some heading toward FP city, some heading to irrigation project around the capital. MM Athens to work the new irrigation to finish cath in 3 and now grow in 6. Reduce research to 30%, 35 turns and +1 gpt. MM and rushed workers changed to amount of gold available for reasearch.

470 AD (2): Sparta complets aqueduct starts cath. Knoossos builds library starts aqueduct. 2 Workers join Herakleia, FP in 47 turns. Trade cleo dyes for Ivory, WM and all her gold 18.

480 AD (3): More worker movement, irrigation at Pharsalos.Athens finishes cath starts SZAW, 50 turns.

490 AD (4): Thermo finishs Lib, start marketplace, WLTKD in Athens.

500 AD (5): Finish lib start aqueduct at Delphi. Eretria finish courthouse start aqueduct. Hurry temple at Rhodes for 60 gold to get cattle on line in 10.

510 AD (6): Lost a galley to the Sea, didn't count correctly.

520 AD (7): Corith builds market starts granary. Worker joins Herkleia, running max shields, FP in 34 turns.

530 AD (8): Athens grew to 8 and WLTKD ended. SZ's in 43 turns.

540 AD (9): Misc movement. Worker irrigation in the south continues.

550 AD (10): Irrigation to the core cities continues. SZ in 33 on max shields and zero growth. Corinth working one undeveloped tile, workers with water for that grass are on the way. Max shields at Herakleia, FP in 26 with -1 food per turn, okay for 6 more turns. Eretria running max shields, aqueduct in 8 grow in 7.

On the diplo front, Zulus are cautious and have nothing to trade. Egypt is Polite and will give 20 gold and WM for Incense but will not trade Theo.

Science at 40% with Theo in 14 with +5 gold. Cutting back to 30% and bumping 10% lux will give WLTKD's. Lee any suggestions?



Here is the save:

Hotrod




LK28 550 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-550AD.zip)

On the WLTKD's, I played one more turn and with 10% lux, Athens finishes SZ in 30 vs. 32 turns on max shields.

I see it - expect a review in 12 hours.

Notice:

I will be on vacation Jul 26 to Aug 4.
This is a gaming convention, and I will have idle time.
The review timing may be a little more chaotic.

City production - Multiple libraries? Don't forget we need to PAY for these. We could be forced to increase the tax rate

to pay for the libaries - in that case - not much gain. Some marketplaces for extra money would be nice.


City MM - WT? Athens is at ZERO growth! Growing to size 12 is much more effective for wonder building.
If we do NOTHING and live Athens this way, as of 700AD - 13 turns to go.
====================
550 AD - Switch Athens from forrest to irragated grassland for growth (twice) - grows in 3 turns.
It looks worse with 44 turns to go.
580 AD - Athens grows, mm from forest to grassland that WILL be irragated - grows in 5 turns.
I now have 9 workers by Athens - when going to wonders - concentrate on the wonder city.
630 AD - Athens grows, I agree with the choice of using the hill I mined.
680 AD - Athens grows, I again agree with the choice of using the hill I mined.
750 AD - Athens grows, MM for max shields - 10 turns to go.
Three turns saved by pushing growth, and we have a size 12 powerhouse with 22 shields.
Growth is king
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-088.jpg


Forbidden palace - The extra shield starvation is tricky - the next person might kill somebody by accident.


Workers - Not enough worker tag teams - we have enough workers to stack 2 or 3 together.
We are using unimproved tiles in cities - it is better to get on city going strong.


hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Chieftess - Playing
rctmasta - on deck
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

You covered growth vs. max shields but what about the the lux for WLTKD's??? Especially in Athens.

Hotrod

Also, is the Sistenes better than the Sun? Both should be available for us to choose?

Hotrod - I didn't look at the WLTKD that closely. My goal was to demostrate the advantage of getting growth from cities.

If it were my choice - I would take Sistene based on the low luxury rate. 2x cathedrals look really good.

However, this could be argued either way. If you decide to take out the continent - instant barracks would really help.

Some items are pretty clear cut - bad worker actions, etc. Sistene vs Sun can't be given a black and white answer.

Understood.

The only "problem" was the growth at Athens and the over abundance of Libraries? Overall not a bad turn?

Hotrod

Athens growth, and core city growth is general was the main issue. I use Athens as an example to show the advantage of getting large cities ASAP.

The libraries are a problems as our cash flow is weak - we need to improve cash flow (marketplaces / courthouses).

Overall, not bad - the theme of to few workers around the core cities continued.

ok, getting the game. Will play/post within 24 hours.

:scan:
Looking for Chieftess moves
:scan:

I'm going to quit, since DoM wanted me to help with another forum... a bit too much right now. ;)

NEW PLAYER NEEDED
3 players is just to light to keep this game going



hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
rctmasta - Playing <<<
OPEN SLOT

:scan: :scan:
rctmasta OVERDUE

Still looking for another rookie

As I have just recently moved up to Regent level I'll join up.

I think you can take the game, Tiamat. Go on.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - on deck
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat - Playing
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed

Got the game. Will play some tonight and the rest tomorrow. Will post when I have completed.

LK 28

Turn 0 (550 AD)
- MM Athens 2 workers move from forest to irrigated grasslands as suggested.
- Switched Argos from Library to Marketplace.
- Egypt will not trade Theology. Will only give WM + 20G for Incense, not enough.
- Zulu has no tech/lux./res. to trade

Turn 1 (560 AD)
- Move galley into Rhodes for healing.
- Move workers

Turn 2 (570 AD)
- Workers working. Galley healing.

Turn 3 (580 AD)
- Corinth produces Granary, ordered to build Harbor.
- Pharsalos produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Knossos expanded.
- Athens grows, MM worker to soon to be irrigated tile from forest.
- Sparta & Thessalonica grow.
- Egypt still won't trade Theology. Trade TM for TM.
- Zulu still has nothing to trade.

I - Zulu offers TM for TM, accept.

Turn 4 (590 AD)
- Mycenae grows, switched from Library to Marketplace.
- Workers working.
- Move galley towards eastern end of Egypt for exploration.

Turn 5 (600 AD)
- Thermopylae produces Marketplace, ordered to build Horseman.
- Workers working.

Turn 6 (610 AD)
- WLTKD in Thermopylae.
- Pharsalos grows.
- Egypt & Zulu both now have Engineering & Theology. Neither will trade Engineering,
both want all our gold, & 6 gpt (Zulu also wants WM) for Theology. Too expensive.

Turn 7 (620 AD)
- Delphi expands.
- Troy grows.
- Workers working.

Turn 8 (630 AD)
- Sparta grows, produces Cathedral, ordered to produce Harbor.
- Thermopylae produces Harseman, ordered to build Granary. MM worker to irrigated square
for growth. Send Horseman to Thessalonica.
- Delphi produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Eretria produces Aqueduct, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Troy produces Barracks, ordered to build Aqueduct.
- Corinth grows, MM worker to irrigated grassland.
- Athens grows, MM worker from forest to mined grassland.
- MM worker in Herakleia to prevent loss of 1 pop. FP goes from 18 to 21 turns.
- Thessalonica grew. MM worker from Mountain to soon to be mined hill.
- Trade WM + 3G to Eqypt for WM.
- Engineering still unavailable from either Eqypt of Zulu.
- Theology costs are all our gold. Not worth it as we get it in 4 turns.

I - Egypt asks us to move our galley, won't agree to a right of passage, tell her
I will move it.

Turn 9 (640 AD)
- Ephesus produces Harbor, ordered to build Marketplace.
- Delphi grows, MM worker from undeveloped grassland to soon to be mined hill.
- Eretria grows, MM from forest to irrigated grassland.
- Set worker near Thessalonica/Herakleia to connect Iron.
- MM Thermopylae from forest to irrigate grassland. Lose 2 shields/turn but
gain 2 food & 2 commerce/turn.

I - Zulu are building Sistine Chapel.

Turn 10 (650 AD)
- MM Athens from irrigated grassland to mined hill, growth slows from 2 to 4 turns,
but changes SZ from 31 to 25 turns.
- Argos grwos.
- MM Thermopylae fromt forest to irrgated grassland (formerly used by Athens). Speeds
up growth, doesn't slow down production.
- Thessalonica mine complete, switch from Library to Marketplace.
- Increased Science to 50%, Theo in 1 turn and +2G.

Summary:

- There are 3 workers on the mountain near Athens to begin mining/roading it.
- Neither Egypt or Zulu are willing to trade Engineering.
- Egypt's army is bigger than ours, Zulu's is about the same size.
- The galley is useless for further exploring right now, maybe we should use
it to start moving troops in preparation for war.

Here is the game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-650AD.zip

City MM - Delphi is being starved - No city should be allow a growth factor of 1 food - especially one lacking a granary.
Move from hill to grassland. After hill is mined, switch from forest to hill.

Ephesus is at ZERO growth - it has a harbor! Move one, if not both workers to the ocean.
If you want to move 1 to get some shields, then switch to granary to offset the slow growth.
NEVER stunt city growth except 1/1 cities.

Knossos - again growth is king. Switch from dye forest to irragated plains.
===========================
City Production - Therm building granary :) After size 6, these are really important to hit size 12 quickly.
===========================
Forbidden palace - 19 turns is the best we can do without adding another worker to the city.
===========================
Military - War is almost guarenteed soon. Both AI civs are out of growth room. What does this mean?
1 - Find at least one city to build military.
2 - Move the troops (at least horseman) toward front line cities with barracks -
This basically means Troy.
===========================
Settlers - With war probably happening soon, we should have a spare settler in Troy to fill in a gap.
===========================
Workers - Based on my Delphi mm comments - the hill could have waited.
Since it will take 4 turns - complete the mine / road, then work on the grasslands.

The 2 workers irragating s, se of Athens will gain nothing until > size 12.
The city is size 10, +3 food. Add the hill, size 11, +2 food. Add the mountain, size 12, +0 food.
This is perfect until hospitals.

[party] The spare iron by Herakleia is being connected.
I've seen it argued both ways with resource depletion.
My preference it to connect an extra so a key resource doesn't disappear at a critical time.

Troy - a subtle worker issue - we should improve tiles that are not danger of becomeing Zulu first.
It the border for Zulu move in there favor, we will have improved tiles for them!
Probably won't happen with the Zulu, but if this were a good culture civ...

:goodjob: What I like in the report - you were thinking about city mm in detail.
===========================
Overall - We really need that fp on-line. +2 gold with 50% science is pretty weak.
The marketplaces will help.
===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================

hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew - on deck
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat -
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

I have it and will try to play and post later tonight.

Hotrod

I've been watching this game, and it seems that you give some good advice, Lee. But you need more city overlap and closer placement, as you can't use all of the tiles around a city until much, much later. Your playing style might be right for size 20 super cities, but other people do just as well with a group of size 12 or even size 10 cities. It isn't incorrect to have a lot of overlap. Otherwise, you give some good advice for new players, and it is a shame that more people don't help them out as much as you are. Good job! :)

Vel did a thread about city placement at Apolyton, and it is very good. Check it out, both styles of placement are viable and they have both advantages and disadvantages.

The city placement in this game has been one of the biggest problems. I wanted several of the cities in different locations. On the overlap issue - don't forget another item: OCN. If you add a bunch more cities, crossing that magical number - it will be much harder to get good production from them.

As for the Vel city placement thread - how about a link? Nobody is going to want to hunt blindly for this thread.


The 2 big issues this game have been:
Weak worker actions
Poor city placement.

Greece is commercial man! OCN isn't going to hurt you, take advantage of your traits!

I will hunt down the thread and give it a bump as I don't know how to post links. Sorry. It's a good read, and I did one myself as my King of Wrestling name at Apolyton. It's discussed a lot now because corruption is more crippling than in Civ 2.

Commercial ups the number of cities for OCN, not eliminate it.

I know, but it is still an excellent trait that you should take more advantage of. The Vel thread (and my own) are both at the Apolyton Tips and Strategy section, not the general forum. He encourages you to try different city placement styles, and that they are just about =, so you shouldn't discourage people from trying new styles. I am just saying that it is ok to suggest a city site based on resources or a river, but you cannot tell a person if it is better to place cities the way you place them, as there are good and bad parts about city placement. Still, your advice is usually on target.

Well as an example in this game:
A city was place gaining ZERO new tiles.
The southern city by the dye forest went to far south - cutting our any grasslands.

Hmm. I see what you mean. There is nothing wrong with the placement, as many unused tiles could be used by the new city. However, it wasn't very smart doing that because there is a lot of northern territory that will be taken if you do not get it soon. The city wasn't needed there, so you were correct in this example.

However, all of the cities surronding the capitol are size 6 in one of the screens, with a lot of unused land in between. Your core cities should be closer, but you are correct in having the far away cities take in as much as possible. The main benefit of having a lot of small cities is less need for luxuries and better culture, and the ability to have workers join cities means you can abandom them later if needed.

The fact is, you aren't using enough land near the capitol. Even after aquaducts, you will not reach the max potential. The game will have already been decided by the time hospitals come, so you should place cities closer and expect a lot of overlap. It really isn't so bad. A city is useful in the modern era even with just 10 tiles, so don't stress perfect placement so much. That is only really important to the far off cities with the only purpose of taking territory and resources.

LK 28 From 650 AD

650 AD (0): Change Argos to granary (4): city is at 4 now with granary will grow quicker, markets can wait until granary and eventually the aqueduct are completed. Same goes for Mycenae with only 3 lux, markets don't give a huge happiness bonus and city is only a size 4, granary will help city grow faster. MM as suggested at Ephesus, grow in 20 turns, veto Market to granary.
Zulus and Egypt both have Engineering and refuse to trade.

660 AD (1): Learn Theology, start Engineering in 11 turns. Corinth finishes Harbor starts Horseman. 3 workers in MTs near Athens move to grasslands

670 AD (2): Mines at Athens, Roads in the hills completed move to undeveloped grass to the SW. MM Athens to newly mined hill SZAW in 22, growth to 11 in 2 turns.

680 AD (3): Knossos builds aqueduct and starts granary.Workers actions virtually complete at Athens moving to develop Corinth and Sparta.

690 AD (4): Thermopylae builds Granary starts Horseman. Corinth builds horse starts Catapult. Argos builds Granary starts aqueduct. With new units and buildings now running -2 gold but 2 new markets will be on in less than 5 turns. Athens grow to 12 in 10, SZ completes in 18. Sparta complets harbor starts Catapult. Change Corinth to Horseman, they will be vets at sparta catapult doesn't need vet status.

700 AD (5): at 50% running +2 gold, Eng. in 7 turns. Cleo has Education and Engineering. @ Lee at what point do you stop researching and begin buying tech?

710 aD (6): Market completes at Pharsalos, start Granary.

720 AD (7): Sparta completes Catapult and start as settler, ready in 3 sparta grows to 11 in 1. Thermo, builds horseman starts archer ready in 2 turns. Corinth builds horseman and start another. Egyptians are building Copernicus's Observatory. Cows at Sparta get water :).

730 AD (8): Keep moving troups to Troy.Various worker movements to get water to Delphi.

740 AD (9): Change Thermo to Hopilite so we can move out some fortified horseman from Delphi and Thermo. Delphi starts Granary.

750 AD (10): Sparta finishes settler, switch to Catapult. MM to Grow back to 10 in 2, catapult ready in 2. Eretria finishes market start granary. Athens MM to grow in 3 complete Sun in 12.

Sent a few horseys to Troy, settler on the way, 1 catapult and another is being built. Finished some Granaries and marketplaces. We are behind in Tech but chose to avoid the library and focus on the growth, ie all the granaries. They are slow to build but after the FP is finished in 9 turns, aqueducts should ge quick to build. Too many maybe but I don't see the benifit of a market in a city that is less than size 6 and growing slowly.

As far as diplomatic issues, Egypt and Zulus both have Engineering, and Egypt has Education. Our trade of dyes for ivory has run out, try to renegociate but she won't trade 1 for 1, we pay an additional 9 gold :( but get 20 more turns of ivory :).
Zulus will trade Engineering but we are only 2 turns from it now.

The bank has 146 gold, +18 gpt, at 40% research and engineering in 2 turns.

Hotrod

Here is the save:




LK 28 - 750AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-750AD.zip)

Popping into the thread here... In terms of pure efficiency, it is better and more effective to go and plant all cities very close together in ICS style just as Higher Games has been mentioning. But I take pains to avoid doing this, because it is both unbalancingly powerful and painfully tiresome to manage so many cities. IMO Civ3 is considerably more fun when you treat the cities as, well, cities and not as numbers in a complex equasion to win the game the fastest. Unless there is a strong reason arguing against it, I try to keep overlap between cities to a minimum. Sure, I know that the game is almost always decided before hospitals arrive, but the thought of deliberately setting up my cities so that NONE of them will ever exceed size 12 strikes me as more of a pain than anything else. I also think that it's far better for newcomers to learn proper placement of cities with the understanding of each one having 21 tiles (or close to it) than to teach them to cram their cities together willy-nilly in a game of ICS gone crazy.

Kind of a silly issue I guess, but I find the game relatively easy to win even if I am "wasting" tiles by placing cities with minimum overlap. And I do think that in a training game, LKendter is doing the right thing to focus on game fundamentals rather than advanced stuff like ICS madness.

City MM - A very important MM was missed. To MM correctly you should check each city after improving terrain.
Moving from forest to hill saves a turn on fp - 2 might have been saved if done during hotrod0823 turn.

===========================
City Placement - Although me and Higher Game don't totally agree - I took a hard look at our land.
We did miss one good city spot. A city at the black X will claim the 4 ununsed yellow x squares.
This city will bring in a lot of revenue when we start using the ocean squares.
We are hurting for cashflow - this city would help a lot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-090.jpg

===========================
City Production - No arguements.
===========================
Forbidden palace - 19 turns is the best we can do without adding another worker to the city.
===========================
Military - War is almost guarenteed soon. Both AI civs are out of growth room. What does this mean?
1 - Find at least one city to build military.
2 - Move the troops (at least horseman) toward front line cities with barracks -
This basically means Troy.
===========================
Settlers - With war probably happening soon, we should have a spare settler in Troy to fill in a gap.
===========================
Workers - We need to achieve balance! We can't go pure irragation or pure mines
Each city should be looked at on a individual basis for what they need.
My irragation comments early were because of ZERO irragation - but we are know at almost 100% irragation.
Balance is the key.

Sparta AND Eretria has +6 food, but we are irragating? - Plus 6 is PLENTY of food. Sparta only needs MINES in the current square.
We should LEAVE the forest there to get some 2 shield squares.

Therm is +4 food with an irragated square to follow, so +5 food. CANCEL forest clearing, the city will be hurting for shields.
If this was to get water to Delphi (which needs it at +1 food) - you should simply bring water 1 square south (left of forest).

Knossos is stunted at +1 food - this is the town that needs to clear forest / add irragation.

We could still use some more workers - a lot of cities are using unimproved tiles - skim a couple from the +6 food cities.


This is an example of a good size 12 city taking advantage of terrain.
First thing I did was move workers from forest to grassland, and hills to grassland.
Multiple mm during the growth period including temporary growth delay to finish granary before growth.
This allowed the city to have the granary used optimally.
This city is around a lot of tundra / hills.
However, by irragating a lot of grassland hit size 12 with 22 shields before corruption.
I give the city what it needed - water.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-091.jpg


I ran the same excerise at Eretia. I add NO new irragation as I can get +7 food with mm.
I cancelled granary for cathedral - happiness will be an here, not growth - due in 20 turns.
I give the city what is needed - shields.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-092.jpg


The point to the excercise - each city must be looked at to see what will benifit THAT city.

===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
rctmasta - (heading toward dropped)
Tiamat - on deck
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

I got it

Guys, im sorry for dropping out earlier. I had major internet problems and i couldnt post here for about a week. I tried to post from my friends house, but i dont know my password :o If you can forgive me, id like to rejoin. Of course, if someone else wants to join, they get forst dibbs, cause i already blew a chance.

Guys, im sorry for dropping out earlier. I had major internet problems and i couldnt post here for about a week. I tried to post from my friends house, but i dont know my password :o If you can forgive me, and if that spot is still open, id like to rejoin please. Of course, if someone else wants to join, they get forst dibbs, cause i already blew a chance.

On the forest clear. YEP! was clearing forest to get water to Delphi. Thought about going south but that would be improving an unused tile but see that with 3 workers it is better to leave the forest for the shields.

Also, is MM at the FP site to bring the hills online ok? Thought I checked that city many times but was concerned about loosing food and shrinking to 5. I will have to check it tonight.

Hotrod

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
Tiamat - on deck
Trickey - WELCOME BACK


Also, is MM at the FP site to bring the hills online ok?


YES - I swapped a forest for a hill - I gained one productive shield doing so. This had no effect on food.

thanks alot LK.

Believe me - computer problems I can understand :(
I was out for 5 days with a busted laptop keyboard.

D9Phoenix lost internet connect.
Somebody had is wife failed to pay to internet bill :crazyeye:
etc., etc., etc.

LK28 750AD ---> 850AD

Preturn - Switch Corinth to Hoplite - Send some more Horsemen to Troy - Cancel irrigation near Troy, mining the shielded grassland - Cancel deforestation near Thermopylae, sending two of them to help Delphi's development, send the others to irrigate the tile at the west
760AD (1) - Thermopylae finish hoplite, switch to cathedral - Fortifying the hoplite - The Zulus begins The Sistine Chapel - Fortfying the galley in Argos
770AD (2) - Corinth finish hoplite, beginning another one - Sparta finish catapult, beginning another one - Catapult takes the direction of Troy - Move the hoplite to Eretria in order to "liberate" the horseman of his police's task - Engineering discovered, switch to Education - The Zulus have Invention but don't want to trade it
780AD (3) - Micromanage Herakleia, 5 turns to go for the FP
790AD (4) - Sparta finish catapult, beginning another one - Corinth finish hoplite, switch to cathedral - Pharsalos finish granary, switch to cathedral - Catapult takes the direction of Troy - Fortifying hoplite
800AD (5) - No tech trading possible with Shaka nor with Cleo - Knossos finish granary, switch to courthouse - Delphi finish granary, switch to horseman
810AD (6) - Thessalonica finish granary, switch to aqueduct - Mycenae finish granary, switch to aqueduct - Sparta finish catapult, switch to hoplite (planning to have a group of defensive units in Troy to garrison in captured cities) - Public works near Thermopylae finished - Sending the 2 workers to Knossos - No tech trading possible
820AD (7) - Eretria finish granary, switch to cathedral - Micromanage Eretria (cathedral in 16 turns) - Sending the Egyptian worker to Knossos
830AD (8) - Herakleia finish FP !! (Before : +10G/per turn - Education in 11 turns After : +26G/per turn - Education in 9 turns) - Micromanage Herakleia and switch to granary - Sparta finish hoplite, beginning another one - Delphi finish horseman, beginning another one - Horseman and hoplite takes the direction of Troy - The Chinese built Sun Tzu ... - Switch to Sistine chapel (3 turns)
840AD (9) - Nothing special
850AD (10) - Sparta finsh hoplite, beginning another one - Hoplite takes the direction of Troy

Notes :
- We now have a strong military compared to Shaka's one and an average one compared to Cleo
- The hoplites and the horsemen are going to Troy
- The workers near Knossos were going to develop Argos
- The workers 2 tiles north of Eretria are going to Knossos
- The Egyptian worker, one tile south of Pharsalos is going to Knossos
- One important note for Eretria : will riot in 4 turns but the cathedral will be built in 11 turns. I suggest to rush the cathedral at the turn Eretria grows
- Sistine Chapel in 1 turn !!
- +27G/per turn / Education in 7 turns

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-850AD.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-093.jpg


A picture is worth a 1000 words - this is going to be the ONLY issue I talk about.
The next two squares gained by Eretia will be the red and blue squares.
This gains even more food.
When the city maxes out at size 12 - we have +6 food.
This was with stealing a forest from the other city.
We are irragating another square?
This city is hurting for shields.
Build the cities for optimal size 12, lower food and higher shields.
If both red and blue were mined, we will still be +4 food.

This is perfect until rails / hospitals come along - at that point - the whole equation changes.


===========================

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Tiamat - Playing
Trickey - on deck

OPEN SLOT - another player is needed
rctmasta - DROPPED unless confirms otherwise.

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

Fair enough, Sulla. You don't need perfect city placement to win the game, and you don't need to play like a maniac to win on regent. I think that there is strategy to ICS, but since there are also many disadvantages I would consider it to be a viable strategy, not "cheapness."

In this training game, some of the players need so much help besides city placement, as they do make many mistakes. But it only takes 2 or 3 games to get really good, so good luck! :)

In my opinion, I think this game has irrigation all over the place. Mines should be everywhere, as Greece is on excellent terrain.

OK, have the game. Will play and post tonight.

LK28

850 AD (0): Stop workers near Eretria from irrigating. Switched Sparta from Hoplite to Barracks. MM Pharsalos from forest to irrigated plain. Extra shield was going to corruption and sped growth from 7 to 5 turns. MM Herakleia from irrigated plain to irrigated/road plain, gain 1 gold for science per turn. MM Thessalonica from irrigated plain to hill, another from plain to forest, and another from plain to mountain. Don't need food and Aqueduct goes from 11 to 7 turns. Stop worker at Rhodes from clearing forest.

860 AD (1): Athens completes Sistine Chapel [dance], starts Barracks. Delphi completes Horseman , starts Hoplite. Horseman sent to Troy. Egyptians & Zulu building Leonardo's Workshop. Both Egypt & Zulu want all gold, 22gpt & WM for Invention. Too expensive.

870 AD (2): Rhodes completes Granary, starts Aqueduct. MM to get Aqueduct in 13 turns instead of 17.

880 AD (3): Athens completes Barracks, starts Hoplite. MM from irrigated grass to mined grass and to forest for shields, doesn't affect food production. Sparta completes Barracks, starts Settler. Delphi completes Hoplite, starts Hoplite. Hoplite fortified, Horseman sent to Troy. Egypt wants 397G (all), 17gpt & WM for Invention. Zulu wants 397G, 19gpt, & WM. Still way too expensive.

890 AD (4): Athens completes Hoplite, starts Hoplite. Hoplite sent to Sparta to relieve Horseman of MP duty, Horseman sent to Troy. Troy completes Granary, starts Aqueduct. MM to get Aqueduct in 13 turns instead of 17. Eretria grows, rushing Cathedral takes all of our gold, set 1 worker to Entertainer, MM to getCathedral in 6 turns. MM Corinth to get Cathedral in 5, growth in 6 or same problem as Eretria.

900 AD (5): Athens completes Hoplite, starts Hoplite. Hoplite sent to new city location near Athens as per Lee's post. Thermopylae completes Cathedral, starts Archer. Delphi completes Hoplite, starts Cathedral. Hoplite sent to Ephesus for MP duty. Argos completes Aqueduct, starts Marketplace. Egypt has Chivalry, won't trade it. Zulu only has Invention and both still want everything we have for it. MM Pharsalos to get Cathedral in 8 growth in 10 (or same problem as Eretria). MM Argos to start growing again.

910 AD (6): Athens completes Hoplite, starts Swordsman. Hoplite sent to new city location. Sparta completes Settler, starts Horseman. Settler sent to found new city.

920 AD (7): Education is discovered, set to Invention. Will be discovered in 13 turns. Thermopylae completes Archer, starts Archer. Herakleia completes Granary, starts Marketplace. Thessalonica completes Aqueduct, starts Cathedral. Archer sent to Troy. MM Thessalonica to grow again.

930 AD (8): Athens completes Swordsman, switched to Colosseum. Ephesus completes Granary, starts Library. Marathon founded, starts Temple. MM Corinth to complete Cathedral and grow in 1 turn. MM Pharsalos to complete Cathedral & grow in 4. MM Knossos to grow again.

940 AD (9): Sparta completes Horseman, starts University. Thermopylae completes Archer, starts University. Corinth completes Cathedral, starts University. Knossos completes Courthouse, starts Cathedral. Egypt has Astronomy, but won't trade it. Trade Education & WM to Zulu for Chivalry.

950 AD (10): Eretria completes Cathedral, starts Library. England completes Leonardo's Workshop. MM Eretria entertainer back to irrigated grassland. Switch Knossos to Marketplace as Knossos won't be able to grow past 8. This will give us 3 happy, 2 content, & 3 unhappy. The Market place should switch at least 1 of the content to happy as well as increase our revenue.

Summary: The 2 workers between Marathon & Corinth should be used to get Marathon productive. The Archer, Swordsman & Horseman are all heading to Troy.

Here is the save:

I see it - will try to review within 24 hours.

850 AD (0): Stop workers near Eretria from irrigating.

[dance] It is always nice to know your advice is being read :)


Eretria grows, rushing Cathedral takes all of our gold, set 1 worker to Entertainer, MM to getCathedral in 6 turns.


This was the CORRECT play. Running an entertainer for just six turns is acceptable, as a solution was already worked out.

===========================
City Production - Library? I can't say 100% wrong, but my general preference is marketplace first.
===========================
City MM - Delphi is right, one of the ONLY times to slow growth - waiting for the happy help.

Thess can be improved. Plains to irrageted grassland, plains to hill.
No loss in growth and gains a shield.
===========================
Military - Finally - all cities defended by a defense unit :)
===========================
Strategic level - Astronomy is available - we have just ONE ship.
We should have a couple more ships to explore once we get astronomy.
First contact is very powerful.

Are we going for a space race or conquest victory?
If we plan to go military victory - save the cash to upgrade units.
If we plan to go space race - we will need to buy Astronomy when Cleo will give it up.
The game direction needs to be decided quickly.

England completes Leonardo's Workshop.
The other continent is at our tech level, if not ahead - we really want to find them!
===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================
Workers - My #1 subject to discuss ;)
Irragated desert by Argos? This gains one food. If we want the city to grow - we must clear the nearby forest.
Until rails are available - irragated desert doesn't help much.

Thess wants another irragted grassland - we could then use the mountain with iron

Rhodes - we have to incense hills with bonus commerce - this hills should be developed first.
Especially since we are ACTIVELY using those spots. The hill being worked is NOT used.
Reminder - Rule #1 - Work the best tiles first.
Rule #7 - Improve the tiles being used by the city first.


===========================
hotrod0823 - on deck
Juliennew -
Tiamat -
Trickey - Playing
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

got it, will have the save up later today.

Lk 28

1. The German city of Hamburg completes copernicus's Observatpry. Begin buiding road near Mycenae. Myceane is working on a forest that isnt roaded, so i order 3 workers to go road it. Archer sent up to Troy. Swordsman sent up to troy. begin roading a shielded grassland near Marathorn.

2.Pharsalos completes cathedral, begins work on University.

3.Eretria completes Library, begins work on university. Troy is working on a few unimproved forests, so i order a couple workers to get up there and road them. Sparta is working on a one unimproved forest, so i designate one worker to road it.

4. Athens completes coloseum, i see that it is losing one shield to corruption, so i decide to build a courthouse. Myceane completes aqueduct, begins work on library. I realize that if i drop our science rate by 10%, i will only lose 1 turn of research, but almost double our income (23 gpt to 41 gpt). I dont know if this is the right move, but its worth a try :) . Rhodes is working on unimproved forest, so i order a worker to road it.

5. Rhodes completes aqueduct, begins marketplace. Rhodes borders increase.

6. Hmmmm, dont really know what to do with the workers, as all tiles that are being workerd on are improved. So ill just improve tiles that will be used in the future.

7. Egypt is asking an arm and a leg for invention ( even tho there is only 3 turns until we discover it) and Music theory. They wont trade astronomy or banking, so no new deals yet. We trade our world map and 15 gold to egypt for their world map, in hopes that they had vetured out into the sea with their boats. But no luck. They dont know anything new :( Sparta completes University, begins courthouse. Cornith completes University, begins courthouse. Troy completes aqueduct, begins library.

8. Athens completes courthouse, begins university. Argos completes markertplace, begins library. German city of Berlin completes Js Bachs cathedral. The other continent, or at least germany, is most likely ahead of us in tech. We trade our world map and 10 gold to egypt for music theory. Put our science don to 10%, we will still get invention next turn, but we will make 84 gold.

9. We lose our supllie of Ivory! But then we trade dyes and 40 gold to egypt to get pur ivory back. We discover invvention. Im not sure if this is the right tech to research, but i chose to research astronomy. Once we get cravels, they will help us discover the other continent quicker. Science set to 30%, astronomy in 17 turns. Thermopylae completes university, begins courthouse. Heralkeia completes marketplace, begins work on cathedral. Babylon city of nineveh comlpetes Meglellan's Voyage.

10. Delphi complets cathedral, begins work on courthouse. Mycenae completes library, begins work on markertplace.


SUMMARY
I think i got alot accomplished as far as improving the tiles go. Not too much to say, except i think that the other continent is probably 2-3 techs ahead of Egypt. Very close tho the industrial ages. Im not very good at conducting war, so i decided to leave that to the next player.


I could only do 10 turns for now. Lk, if you dont respon within 3-4 hours, then i will play 10 more turns.

@Trickey

This game is ONLY 10 rounds.
No more turns needed.
I try and squeeze a review in soon.

I just finished my last game at the convention.
I have a long drive back - I will try to review LATE Sunday.

After that, I should be back to my normal response time.

The monster vacation is over.
I am back.
Normal review pace will be back.
This will be reviewed in ~18 hours, falling asleep at the keyboard :sleep:

===========================
City Production - Therm building a courthouse? This will recover 1 shield, 1 gold. To little gain to justify a courthouse.
===========================
City MM - Cornith can move from the ocean to the square where the workers are.
This takes advantage of when the workers complete there mining.
===========================
Military -
===========================
Science - ?:smoke:? Astronomy isn't bad for a space race, but for military we should have went for Gunpowder.
This is why we need to decide direction quickly.
===========================
Strategic level - Are we going for a space race or conquest victory?

The game direction needs to be decided ASAP!
hotrod0823 should either upgrade the horseman, or buy a tech.

===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================
Workers - My #1 subject to discuss ;)
I am very glad to see the worker stacks, but they should be spread around more of the board.

WHERE are our workers the south? Next time Delphi grows it goes to an unworked square.
Marathon needs help also.

We have two STACKS to help Mycenae, but none for Knossos?
Balance is needed, as both cities need forest cleared.

Worker by Rhodes - what can wait, should. We gain 2 shields for mining the hill by Rhodes, 1 gold for the road.
2 shields have more value then 1 gold.

We are still SHORT of workers - some of the size 12 cities should build a worker, then back to buildings.
===========================
I can't find a lot to comment one - which is a good thing.
===========================
hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew - on deck
Tiamat -
Trickey -
10 turns per player
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed


Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.
I should be back to my normal quick response again.

I have the game and will try to play later tonight but may not be able to post until tomorrow.

Hotrod

1050 AD (0): Many horseman in Troy can upgrade 10 to knights for 800 gold. Or buy gunpowder for 698 gold and WM from Cleo. Zulus want more. Decide on the Guns from Egypt and set research down to zero to get +142 gpt. in a few more turns I can buy astronomy from Cleo or upgrade and attack Zulus. I wake the galley start looking for the other continent, first contact may help with trades.

1060 AD (1): Thessalonica finished cathedral and starts library. Eretria finished University and starts Worker. Cleo spent her gold. Wants all the gold for Astronomy and thensome, it can wait for now. Sending workers to get the saltpeter on line.

1070 Ad (2): Pharsalos builds university starts galley for possible suicide runs. Knossos builds market starts university. Argos builds lib starts harbor for the extra food, it is stuck at 7. Eretia builds worker starts catapult, no baracks and war could be eninent. Troy builds lib, and starts marketplace. Galley survives the lone sea square and red boarder is spotted due East. It is the Babs :) :). Will lose the galley next turn but babs have connact with the other civs and have astronomy. Will trade for only 5 gold and contact with Egypt, wait for now.

1080 AD (3): Athens builds university starts longbowman. Sparta builds courthouse starts worker. Babs now have Printing press, astronomy, Banking, and chemistry. Trade contact with egypt for printing press and WM and 17 gold. Trade Egypt 417 gold, WM and Printing Press for Banking. Traded zulus printing press and banking for astronomy and WM and 28 gold. Babs also have economics and navigation :(. Embassy with Babs established for 67 gold. Turn research back on the techs available are expensive and babs lack democracy, research at 50% demo in 11 turns +1 gpt.

1090 AD (4): Babs ask us to leave, I ask for ROP they agree, that way we can find the others for ourselves. Sparta finished worker starts bank. Thessalonica finish lib, start university. Start Bank in Eretria. Find England and establish embassy before discussing trades. Trade Contact with zulus and WM for Economics. ROP for 3 gold with England. Trade Economics for Navigation and 20 gold to Egypt. Athens build longbowman and starts Adam Smith's.

1100 AD (5): Corinth builds longbow starts bank. Pharsalos builds caravel starts bank. Rhodes builds market starts library.

1110 AD (6): Moving some workers

1120 aD (7): Thermo builds courthouse, starts bank. Egyptians starts smiths, check and england already had it started before we made contact. Egypt and Zulus now have conact with all the others and won't be reasonable. Democracy in 4 turns now. Egpt already has it :(.

1130 aD (8): Marathon builds temple start lib., Delphi builds couthouse starts University.

1140 AD (9): Worker movement, ship movement.

1150 AD (10): Many trades available for Democracy, and contacts, can now trade lux with England and Babylon.

Trade Dyes with Babs for Contact with India, WM and 20 gold to India for Contact with China, Navigation to China for their WM and Contact with Germany.

Here is the Save:
LK28 - 1150AD (http://civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-1150AD.zip)

Basically decided on tech vs. war. Spent some gold ~900 of it but got, astronomy, gunpowder, economics, navigation, banking, and the printing press.

Also, found the others, got all the contacts and the world map. Democracy in due in 1 turn. Smith's finishes in 22 without a revolt but not sure if we should wait. Smiths will give a huge ecomomic boost with all the banks and markets for free upkeep. The gold will pour in at well over +140 gpt on 0% research it will be key in upgrading the troups.

After I completed the turns I was pretty confused as wether or not the trades were good or :smoke:. Pretty much :crazyeyes:. Workers got saltpeter online, many horseman can be upgraded to knights for a mere 80 gold and many hops to musketmen. Have we had a Golden Age yet? I don't believe so. Okay now for Lee to point out the error in my ways good luck!

Hotrod

I wouldn't mind jumping in to take the last slot, but I have a couple of questions, and I apologize if they are things that I really should already know.

First, do I need to download a mod to play this game? I haven't changed anything on my system.

Second, what sort of timeframe would I need to finish my turn in? I could probably do in two or two and a half days when it was my turn. Is that too long?

I also haven't ever been in a succession game. I've played Civ2 and now Civ3. I feel like I can win at Regent consistently and can also win at Monarch (1-1 there). Would you mind me being in the game? I feel like I'm not very efficient in playing.

===========================
City Production - Wall street available and 5 banks on the way :goodjob:
We don't have a killer cash flow here and extra $50/turn looks good.

Rule #2 - In cities in culture conflict, culture building should take priority.
The odds are lower with the Zulu and there weak culture builders, but Troy should put a priority on CULTURE building.
This city is as risk of a flip. Who knows, more culture may give us a ZULU city!

===========================
Diplomacy - Overall it went well, close to tech parity and complete knowledge of the other continent. However...

:smoke: China will offer $12 for wm. Zulu will offer $8 / wm.
You should check wm after massive first contact trading.
There are often AI civs with some piece missing. $20 is a big increase with $94.
Every little bit of cash in OUR hands helps.

:smoke: You did a good job of luxury trading, but we still have incense.
Never sit on luxury, unless the best offer is absurd like $1 / turn.
Incense to Babylon gains $110, Democracy (save part of a turn, worth up to $134).
$110 is > 5/turn, about all you can hope for this time.
===========================
Military - :confused: Why did we build a longbowman. No upgrade path, while pikes and knights have upgrade paths.
The AI keep building military, so you should squeeze some military / unit upgrades in from time to time.
===========================
Other - Why is our galley in a coastal square?
We have navigation, and can explore everywhere.
There is a potential to pick up a lot of cash with map brokering if we reveal the water first.
A second galley would be nice.
===========================
Overall - The wall street plan is good, but we have $94 with + $26 / turn.
We really won't take advantage of Wall Street with that little of cash.
===========================
Turn Overall - Smith's could be a MAJOR mistake.
The AI loves that wonder. 1.29 is better at picking good cities for wonder building.
You have NO idea how long Economics was out there.
===========================
Workers - My #1 subject to discuss ;)
A bit more workers in the south, an improvement.

Argos keeps getting ignore - clearing 2 forest will let it grow with squares with shields.
===========================
I can't find a lot to comment one - which is a good thing.
===========================
hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
Tiamat - on deck
Trickey -
10 turns per player
OPEN SLOT - another player is needed

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.


@alexander dumas
NO mods are required.

The typical expected time to turn around is 24 hours for your intention to play. 48 hours TOTAL to complete the move.
This means I complete 12:00 PM Wed, you should finish by 12:00 pm Fri with minor play room.

Smiths is only being built by Germany and if I rememeber correctly Babs or England. Germany in Berlin if we get an embassy I think for around 120 gold we will see the turns remaining then we can decide. It is very early on the Smiths and there is still time to change. Babs did not have it any more than one turn before us.

As far as the longbow: From Sirian

" Also, one more thing to keep in mind. Upgradability is important but often overrated. The longbow unit is almost half the cost of a knight, but the same offensive punch. Longbows are much maligned, but I have found them to be very useful units to reduce losses among my knights, especially for defensive value or in large stacks of assaults on enemy territory."

Seemed like an okay idea in this case with the many horses ready to be knights and hops ready to be musketmen.

Hotrod

On Smith's - that is one of the things very hard to determine not being the one haveing played the turns. I was worried they had it 7 or 8 turns going already. With 1.29, that could be fatal.

I have it

I'd like to join. Before I'm up, could someone make a list of goals in this game? I'll download a recent game tonight and familiarize myself with what's going on. I've read through many of the posts and skimmed others. This should be fun.

If you need another player in the future, I'll keep my eye out. I'm an experienced civII player, but seem to be making the wrong moves in civIII and not doing all that well in the middle game.

Also, I'm several time zones away from you.

You should skip my turn, I don't have much time to play for the moment.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - voluntary skip
Tiamat - Playing
Trickey - on deck
alexander dumas

I will be away from Friday until monday evening will check back to see where we are. Good luck to all

Hotrod

I have it. Will play and post later today.

LK28

1150 AD (0) - Switch Troy to Cathedral. Trade WM to China for 12G. Trade WM to Babylon for Democracy, WM & 110G. Trade WM to India for 8G. Trade WM to Zulu for 8G. Research set to Chemistry in 6 turns.

1160 AD (1) - Thessalonica completes University, starts Marketplace. Saltpeter near Mycenae exhausted, new source appears near Thermopylae.Upgrade 2 Horsemen to Knights. Exploring & working.

1170 AD (2) - Mycenae completes Marketplace, starts Cathedral. Maratho expands. Trade WM to Germany for WM & 4G. Exploring & working.

I - India is building Smith's Trading Company.

1180 AD (3) - Exploring & working.

1190 AD (4) - Herakleia completes Cathedral, starts Barracks. Egyptians building Shakespeare's Theatre. Upgrade 2 more Horsemen to Knights. Trade WM to Babylon for WM & 6G. Trade WM to England for 5G. Trade WM to Egype for 5G. Trade WM to Zulu for WM.

1200 AD (5) - Sparta completes Barracks, starts Knight. Knossos completes University, starts Harbor. Exploring & working.

I - Babylon declares war on Germany :eek: . Babylon building Shakespeare's Theatre.

1210 AD (6) - Chemistry is discovered, start researching Metallurgy (8 turns). Corinth completes Bank, starts Caravel. Delphi completes University, starts Musketman. Eretria completes Bank, starts Barracks. Marathon completes Library, starts Granary. Egypt has Free Artistry & Metallurgy. Won't trade Metallurgy, and wants 17gpt/110G/WM for Free Artistry. Decline as that would be all our gold and most of out gpt. Trade WM to Germany for WM & 9G.

I - Babylon & India sign Military Alliance against Germany. Chinese building Smith's.

1220 AD (7) - Working & exploring. Trade WM to Babylonia for WM & 8G.

1230 AD (8) - Corinth completes Caravel, starts Knight. Eretria completes Barracks, starts Musketman. Exploring & working. Trade WM to China for WM & 1G. China are the only ones behind us in tech. Zulu is even with us in Tech, trade WM for WM. Everybody else has Metallurgy and Free Artistry, and they all want 197G/12gpt/WM for either tech. Egypt, Babylon, & England all also have Physics. England & Egypt want 197G/40gpt/WM for it, Babylon wants 197G/41gpt/WM.

1250 AD (10) - Sparta produces Knight, starts Musketman. Working & exploring.

Summary: The only civ behind us in tech is China. The Zulus are even with us, and everyone else is 2 or 3 techs (min.) ahead. We still have an extra Dye but right now we could only trade it to China who is completely broke. Germany could also use some, and they have both Furs & Spices to trade, but they don't have any harbors, and are not connected via road network to any of the other civs on their continent.

Almost forgot, here is the save.

We are hitting the point where I am not sure how much my commentary can add.
Most games are won in the land grab phase. We have less cities then we should due to wasteage, I am not sure how much this is hurt us.
Rails should appear soon - at that point we can't lose.
===========================
City Production - Ephesus is not growing due to Aqueduct. Growth is key - I would rather be at size 8 with a temporary entertainer, then size

6 and happy.
===========================
Overall - $240 is a improvement, but I find it hard to believe we are a commerical civ.
We should be drowning in cash. Worse, most of our military should be upgraded soon.
===========================
Turn Overall - No major errors.
===========================
Workers -
Knossos is STUCK for growth - cities not growing should take priority for worker actions.

===========================
I can't find a lot to comment on - which is a good thing.
===========================
hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Tiamat -
Trickey - Playing
alexander dumas - on deck
10 turns per player

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.
I should be back to my normal quick response again.

I just downloaded the save and took a look at it so I'll have an idea about what the comments are saying, and to familiarize myself for my turn. I'd like to make a couple of comments.

We have too big a military. We are wasting like 25-26 gpt. We can help this by disbanding all of the warriors. They aren't going to do anything anyway, and saving one gpt is what you'd get if you put a ten-shield city on wealth. We have a settler sitting around and are worried about growth. We should consider building him into a city. We should go to war. That'll solve the military problem by killing some units and also getting us more cities to support units. I think it's time to destroy the Zulu. They have a weak military, aren't ahead in tech too badly, are our neighbors, and are a democracy so they'll have a hard time retaliating for a long period of time. I think once we get metallurgy, we should look to buy military tradition, switch to all cash, upgrade to calvary, then stomp Zulus.

Sorry about going on a rant, and I apologize if this is a building thread, but I think that we'll end up at war anyway because it's unlikely that we'll have all the resources in the modern era. (We're very small.) I suggest a war, then peaceful building.

By the way, what is our goal for victory?

Luigi Vampa

:scan:
Trickey - Playing?
24 hours are almost up for got it.
:scan:

I can play now and post later today, but I'll wait an hour or so and check back before I start.

Ok. I played. I'm sorry Tricky. Can we just switch turns if you want so you won't get skipped? Anyway, here's the summary.

Turn 0: (Before I hit space) Tweak tiles in Pharsalos to get bank a turn earlier w/o loss of growth. Moved longbowmen,horseman, catapault, and one hoplite to north for future war. Disbanded three warriors to help with cash. Moving three more to where the two shields will speed production.

Turn 1: Thermopylae builds bank. Starts Knight. Thessalonica builds barracks starts bank. Delphi builds musketman starts bank. Rhodes goes into disorder. I'm bummed I didn't notice that. Tweak science to pick up 33 gold.

Turn 2: Pharsalos builds bank, start barracks. Argos builds university, starts bank. Troy builds cathedral, starts marketplace. Workers continue cutting forest by Argos. Eritrea decides to switch farmland to mining (size 12). I pimp our map for about 50-55 gold, buy metalurgy for 70 gold and a map to England (if we reduce our science to zero we'd pick up another 105 gold), then buy military tradition off Egypt for 32gpt and 350 gold. Here comes the calvary!! I reduce science to a lone citizen in Rhodes. We now have no money, but we take in 157/turn.

Turn 3: Herakleia builds musketman starts library. Rhodes produces cathedral, starts bank. I upgrade three knights to calvary and one hoplite to musketman. +159/turn

Turn 4: Two more knights trade in swords for guns, two archers get bigger bows, and a catapault starts blowing things up. We'll be ready for war in about five years. +156/turn

Turn 5: England cancels ROP. I understand. Sparta and Thessalonica build musketmen, start calvalry. Germany (Berlin) beats us to Smiths. The mighty Grecian merchants thumb their nose to the world (and 160 shields) and declare themselves bankers on Wall St. To be completed next turn. I demand Free Artistry from Zulu. Then reject my numerous demands. We are at war. Egypt signs an ROP w/ me for 12gold and 1 gpt. She is GRACIOUS! I don't see any threat there. Four more catapaults start blowing things up.
We capture Isandhlwana I rename it Zulu1. Five workers are caught working. That'll help. Move to take two more Zulu cites Next turn.

Turn 6: We lose a galley at sea to the Zulu. Herakleia start a musket. Athens starts a bank. Mycenae riots. Again, sorry about that. I didn't check any of the cities last turn. Marathon starts a marketplace. England gets Shakespeare (again).
We take Isipezi. Upgrade a horseman. Lose a calvary to an Impi and move longbowman and swordsman to take another city next turn. +168/turn

Turn 7: About 8 units show up on our border next to Zulu1. Nobody attacks. Nothing built or started. Someone starves in Zulu1. Still resisting. I'm a little worried about a flip.
We take Hlobane without a loss. So far we've lost on galley and a calvalry. We might consider rushing libraries in these cities, but if we capture more zulu cities, we won't have to worry about flips. Two hoplites now shoot guns. +180/turn.

Turn 8: Thermopylae produces a calvalry. We beat back several Zulu units, but between turns a brave hoplite dies to a knight attack from across a river. One hoplite and two horsemen get upgrades so we lose a bit on Wall St, but I think that can wait. I move four workers to the south to improve that now that we have slaves.

Turn 9: Corinth produces a calvalry. We lose two calvalry and a longbowman between turns and kill three attackers. Our turn has us moving to take the Zulu outpost and kill some Zulus including two calvalry that the showed up with. That makes the war a bit more interesting. They didn't have military tradition when we started the war. China gives us Free Artistry for
our map!! That's a worthless tech!

Turn 10: We produce a couple of Calvary, start Calvalry and musket. We take Tugela, but I goof and only leave on defender. A one point Calvalry. It isn't connected to the Zulu nation, so it might not be attacked next turn. The worker I saw in that city was an industrial age one, so Zulu is now ahead of us in tech. I misclicked on a cannon, so there's a cannon with a calvalry escort on our border. I also started moving cannon and muskets to the next Zulu city.


Summary: We didn't seem to be going anywhere in the begining of my turn and there seemed to be an opportunity with a weak Zulu nation next to us. They also have insense and dyes, so when we get those we should be able to corner the market and get some more luxuries for ourselves. The war has given us a nice blip up on the histograph. We should be able to take a another couple of cities in the next round. The cities we are taking are also quality. They are producing multiple shields and are cash positive (in addition to providing support points for our military. We also have a half dozen free workers.
The thing that bothers me about our situation is that we have big happiness problems. We should set trading more as a goal of ours. I think getting the Zulu luxuries will help that. We are also behind in tech, but I think trading can help that too. We also will have more on an opportunity to get cash once we capture some more cities and begin to utilize Wall St.

It was a lot of fun to play this round. I hope you guys aren't angry about me getting us in a war.

Here's the save.

We should go to war. That'll solve the military problem by killing some units and also getting us more cities to

support units.

They also have insense and dyes, so when we get those we should be able to corner the market and get some more luxuries for

ourselves.

There are many reason to justify war, however thinning out the number of units is not a justification for war. The second

reason listed - resource / luxuries does justify a war.


Thessalonica builds barracks starts bank. Delphi builds musketman starts bank.
You made is clear you want war - why are we still building infastructure?
===========================
City Production - All of our recent conquest building culture buildings :goodjob:
===========================
Military - War has been committed to - why aren't we upgrading the horseman in Troy?
War should be QUICK, 3 more cavalry would help that big time - 10 cavalry is not a decisive force.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-099.jpg
During war with recently conquered cities - 2 units MAX.
Our military isn't that strong - why are we risking a flip to kill a big chunk of it?
Flips can occur ANYWHERE - I have suffered the no nearby town flip several times.
===========================
Overall - I can't give a specific reason, but it feels like the attack could be stronger.
===========================
Workers - What happened to the worker stacks?
It is much better to finish one square quickly and start getting the benefit of the work.

===========================
I can't find a lot to comment on - which is a good thing.
===========================
hotrod0823 - Playing
Juliennew -on deck
Tiamat -
Trickey - skipped
alexander dumas - Please WAIT next time for me to skip the player.
The game host (ME) should be the only one making the skip decision.
10 turns per player

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.
I should be back to my normal quick response again.

uhh, i got skipped??? i did t think this moved so fast, sorry. last time i had to wait like a week 4 my turn. my bad

I just got back tonight and can't get to the game if it is okay with Trickey and Lee I would just assume wait for Trickey to go then go next.

Let me know?

Hotrod

If Trickey can play tonight, OK

If Trickey doesn't grab the game before I get home tonight I will grab and play tonight.

Hotrod

I have the game. Will play and try to post tonight.

Hotrod

1300 AD (0): War with Zulus!! Upgrade 3 horsemen at Troy @ 100 gold each, 8 more remain. Add a taxman to Zulu1 to stop a revolt. If they revolt they are more prone to a flip. Wont lose any citizen this turn but will starve the next. Sell maps to india for 18 gold. ROp with China for 10 gold.

1305 AD (1): Move bunch o troup to Mpodo(?) for attack next turn. Various worker movement, toward Delphi and back up north for further improvements. All civs still want an arm and a leg for physics, decide to save the gold and upgrade at least 1 horse per turn out of Troy for 100 gold, and still get physics in 6 turns. We also never got that embassy with India and Germany, those should be done soonish as well.

1310 AD (2): Mycaene finishes market starts barracks. Troy finishes market builds musket. Egypt builds Newtons. Inbetween the zulu counter attack kills 2 muskets and 1 zulus cavalry dies. Take Mpondo with 3 cavalry loses, 6 resistors - ouch, to raze or not to raze. No settler so I leave it with 2 muskets. Moving on to Ulundi with cavs and muskets. Many vet units and wins but no elites :(. Physics in 4 with +79 gpt. 1 new cavalry upgrade every turn.

1315 AD (3): No counter from the zulus. Athens builds bank and starts musket. Hlobane revolts, :( hire tax man. Delphi bank complete starts musket. Start baracks at Rhodes. Move ontoward Ulundi. Trade incense to England for wines. Trade inscence and dyes to babylon for physics, shut off research for 3 turns will give +224 gpt.

1320 AD (4): zulus have nationalism :(. Position to attack, Take out a rifle, a musket and cavalry with no loses. will take the city next turn only 1 impi remains. Upgrade 2 more horses. 2 cavs are now elite.

1325 AD (5): Defeat conscript rifleman and impi cavalry upgrades to elite, take the city of Ulunid with 4 resistors. start library. Renegociate dye for ivory and 64gold from Egpyt.

1330 AD (6): No one wants to trade metallugy or theory of gravity for a reasonable price. Upgrade the last 2 horseman in Troy. Will attack the capital next turn.

1335 AD (7): Took Zimbabwe with 3 loses of cavs to a lone impi :(. Took the city but it has 10 resistors.

IBTW - babs wants alliance vs. Germany I refuse 1 war at a time.

1340 Ad (8): Took Umtata with 3 cavalry 4 resisors.

IBTW - Zulus attack and kill 1 cavalry and 2 longbows. But they deposed the city of Zimbabwe, we lost two units ONLY :(.

1345 AD (9): Retake Zimbabwe and raze it to the ground. Begin moving settler to the area. Trade inscece to india for 80 gold and 11 gpt. Establish embassy with India and Germany for 188 gold total.

1350 AD (10); Lose Umtate back to zulus. Cavalry poised to take Umtata, settler with musket in boat heading towar Zulu country to fill the gap. Many muskets being built but they have to get up north and quick.

NOT a great turn at all. My war skills are weak. Never have enough muskets to fill in the new cities. I am not sure if I move from one city to the next too quickly. Also, when I am focused on the war I tend to neglect the workers and other cities and the trades. These were a tough 10 turns to keep my focus.

Lee, when is it okay to keep a city or better to raze it. 10 resistors is rediculus and now I realize I should've been on a razing binge with settler to back fill. Too little to late I am afraid. Not having rails yet makes war tough. I think I am getting better with more experience in the building phase but war seems to always be a little tougher. I think I need to be a bit more cautious and wait longer before going on to the next city.

Hotrod

Lee, when is it okay to keep a city or better to raze it. 10 resistors is rediculus and now I realize I should've been on a

razing binge with settler to back fill. Too little to late I am afraid. Not having rails yet makes war tough. I think I am

getting better with more experience in the building phase but war seems to always be a little tougher. I think I need to be a

bit more cautious and wait longer before going on to the next city.

Comments on war making:
Raze / not raze is not a yes / no answer. I decide on a city by city basis, among things that influence my decision:
Is the civ almost dead - If yes, flips are meaningless.
City size - I don't think I have every had a size 1 city flip.
How large is the culture border - size six with no border expansion isn't as dangerous as size 4 with double border expanion.
Can I defend the city? Capturing to suffer a counter attack and losing the city isn't a good move in general.

Other war comments:
1) The attack on Bapedi is a mistake - 2 damage cavalry and a stack of cannons?
Cavalry is an OFFENSIVE unit - Ground troops, multiple preferred should defend this stack.
2) :smoke: The Zulu control Umtata, but a Greek worker is stilling mining next to it! Always pull workers away from the borders, expect flips and don't work much around recently captured cities.unless you have foot troops to protect them.
3) Ulundi is to close to the front - the AI has a worker capture obsession. Pull these units back.
4) Why do we still have 2 defenders in cities way behind the lines? We are hurting for defensive units - strip cities like Athens to 1 defensive unit, and march the troops foward. Even Heralkeia / Rhodes have almost zero danger - move troops foward now.
5) I recomend pulling the troops BACK from Bapedi. Always attack in force. 2 cavalry is way to light to attack size 11 city with defensive bonus. Worse, the cavalry would attack accross a river - giving Bapedi another defense bonus.
6) Tugela / Troy defending with Cavalry? Again - Cavalry is an OFFENSIVE unit. It should not be defending rear line cities.
If comment #4 was already done, we could get them to the front.


I have already failed on a city attack with 12 offenesive units.
Allways attack in force - the one exception, just flipped cities - they should have minimal troops.

Trickey, go on if you want.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing
Tiamat - on deck
Trickey -
alexander dumas -

@Julienew - It is to close to the next round for Trickey.
At this point either you play, or skip the game to Tiamat.
Trickey is NOT going next.

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew - Playing OVERDUE - 24 hours for got it or skipped.
Tiamat - on deck
Trickey -
alexander dumas -

I got it.

I'm going on a trip to Boston later today until Tuesday morning. I'm not sure if we'll get to me before I get back, but until then I won't have a copy of the game. I will be able to play right when I get back.

Well, i guess i couldt play "tonight" ( just getting over a long diablo addiction). But i finnaly decided that the amout of time i was playing diablo, just wasnt healthy. But now im back in full force :)

Sounds good Trickey.
Your next round should be coming up soon.

Preturn - Change some workers tasks near Mycenae (have a plan to optimize shields production)/near Troy (going to improve gold tile)/near Hlobane (send the workes to make road between Hlobane and Ulundi)/near Argos/near Herakleia/near Knossos (will have shields production optimized at 12 if using forests) - Change Sparta to Cavalry/Athens to Cavalry/Delphi to Cavalry - Send some hoplites and musketmen from the backlines to the front - No tech or luxuries/resources trading possible
1355AD (1) - Umtata captured - Sending my cavalries there, waiting to have a good task force for the Bapedi's battle - Bombard Bapedi - Zulus allied with the Germans against India - Selling WM to the world for 21G :D - Possible gems for Dyes trading possible with Lisa, but she ask for some money in addition/don't have enough for the moment but will be possible next turn
1360AD (2) - Planning a retreaf of the cannons stack - Moving some musketmen, workers and calvaries - No one want my map anymore :D - Trade dyes + 102G for gems with Lisa
1365AD (3) - England declared war to Babylon (the bloodshed is beginning) - Theory of gravity discovered ---> Our empire enter the modern era - The war with the zulus combined with a big step forward in technology and philosophy exacerb our patriotism : we learn nationalism - Our industrials came with a project called steam power : They says that it will revolutionize our way of life : Begin research on steam power (13 turns) - Moving troops and workers - Sell WM to the world for 5G - Everyone is forward (excepted the Chinese) of one tech : Communism
1370AD (4) - The retreat of the cannons stack to Umtata is successfull (2 cavalries lost during the retreat ---> 5 cannons and 1 cavalry saved) - Moving troops and workers - Tugela finished library, begin temple - Argos finished bank, begin rifleman - Send WM to the world for 6G
1375AD (5) - Bismarck is blackmailing me : He wants my territory map and 23G (we have 111G/earning 60G per turn) ---> As he is quite far from me and at war with the Indians and the Babylonians, I deny the demand : He declares war !! - Everyone has medicine : They ask too much for this (all our gold and 50-55G per turn)/Communism untradable - Only the Chinese has gold : I trade them our WM for 1G - Moving troops and workers
1380AD (6) - Our right of passage agreement with Cleo has ended/I don't renew it as it is quite useless and ask for more money that in the original proposal - I don't trade WM this turn in order to make a better profit the next time I will do it
1385AD (7) - Moving troops and workers - A capable task force will be soon finished (composed of much calvaries/5 cannons/some riflemen) - It will be quite tough to end this war because of these zulus riflemen ... - Rush Library in Umtata in order to build barracks and make some upgrades of musketmen and hoplite when they will arrive - Sell WM to the world for 3G :(
1390AD (8) - Umtata finished library, begin barracks (will rush next turn when the original rush cost will be considerably lowered) - Sell WM to the world for 4G
1395 AD (9) - China and Germany allied against Babylon -India and Germany signed a peace treaty - Zululand and India signed a peace treaty - Move troops and workers - Change Troy production to cannon (originally riflemen) - Sell WM to the world for 4G - Rush barracks in Umtata
1400AD (10) - Umtata finished barracks, begin temple - Change Rhodes production to cannon (originally riflemen) - Upgraded 2 hoplites and 1 musketman in Umtata - Moving troops and workers - Sell WM to the world for 2G

State of Greece :
15G in reserve / earning 46G per turn
Steam power in 5 turns
At war with : Zululand - Germany

Notes :
- It was quite risky to wait so much time with all these units in Umtata but I really couldn't make a good offensive to make an efficient push in the Zulus lines
- There are now very much units in Umtata and more are coming (grounds + cavalries)
- Our military is strong compared to everyone but weak compared to Egypt's one (be very kind with Cleo :D )
- I was planning to irrigate the two mined plains near Troy in order to work the mountain gold tile when the workers will have finished the work on it ---> Some workers were already heading to them
- I was also irrigating deserts in prevision of railroads
- I didn't mention the skirmishes with the Zulus but I have lost 3 or 4 units in them
- The other nations (excepted the Chineses) are ahead of 2 techs (Medicine and Communism). Trading too expensive to make it
- Money earned in WM trading : 46G / The upgrade price of a musketman :D

I will review this within 24 hours.
I am flying tonight, an don't have net access again to Saturday morning.

I have it and will wait for Lee's review before proceeding.

It was quite risky to wait so much time with all these units in Umtata but I really couldn't make a good offensive to make an efficient push in the Zulus lines

If you need a staging point - wait 1 space OUTSIDE the city. Find and read the RBD12 if you don't believe how bad city flips can be.

ATTACK now! At end of hotrod0823 turns we were way to light for troops. 2 injuried cavalry by a city was to weak.

We have have to many idle troops - I count 6 foot troops, **19** cavalry.
8 to 10 cavalry will take out almost any city with rifleman defenders.
I woke up the cavalry and took out the Zulu in 1410AD!

===========================
City Production - The war will end shortly.
Any city building military such as - Isipezi, Zulu1, Thess, etc - switch to infanstructure.
The priority should be banks - we really need to improve cash flow.
===========================
Overall - Revolution to Republic! Start as soon as the Zulu war ends.
We have enough luxuries and marketplaces to support it.
We have wall street and $15 in the bank.
We want to start building up cash. We want to take advantage of being commercial.
NO more troop upgrades. We need cash.
We are better of building new VET rifleman and disbanding the hoplites (particulary the regular ones) in a city that will benefit from seven shields.
===========================
Workers - The is NO reason to irragate the desert by Herakleia.
When rails arrive - we have *9* squares that will gain FOOD.
If you want to do something by that city - MINE the desert.
With the arrival of rails, you need to think of what that city will gain.
===========================
hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Tiamat - Playing
Trickey - on deck
alexander dumas -
10 turns per player

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

LK28

1400 AD (0) - Stop irrigation near Herakleia, start mining instead. Switch Isipezi to Marketplace. Switch Thessalonica to Bank, Switch Herakleia to Bank. Wake Cavalry in Umtata, send half to Ibabanago. Send the res against Bapedi. Capture Bapedi with 1 resistor, start Library. Capture worker outside Umfolozi. Wake Rifleman, and Musketman, send rifleman & 1 musketman to Ibabanago, and 2 musketmen to Bapedi.

I - India & England sign a Military Alliance against Babylon. India declares war on Babylon. Babylon is now fighting everyone else on their continent. Babylon loses Eridu to England.

1405 AD (1) - Athens completes Cavalry, starts Rifleman. Resistance in Bapedi ends. Umtata expands. Ngome is captured with 2 resistors, starts Library. Rhodes switched to Harbor. Ibabanago captured with 1 resistor, starts Library. Umfolozi captured with 2 resistors, starts Library. Nobody will trade Medicine or Communism. China is the only one behind us in tech.

I - Babylon loses Nippur to Germany.

1410 AD (2) - Resistance in Umfolozi & Ibabanago ends, 1 resistor quelled in Ngome. Thermopylae switched to Harbor. Corinth switched to Colosseum. Delphi switched to Colosseum. Pharsalos switched to Harbor. MM Mpondo to grow in 9 instead of 33. Eretria switched to Colosseum. Troy switched to Courthouse. Swazi captured with 1 resistor, starts Library. Halicarnassus founded, starts Library.

I - Zulu counterattack one of our Cavalry with a Longbowman and lose. We are down to to 1 hp.

1415 AD (3) - Mycenae completes Rifleman, starts Bank. Resistance ends in Swazi. Marathon completes Aqueduct, starts Bank. Intombe captured with 1 worker, starts Library. Zulu's are defeated. [dance] :beer: Trade Dyes to India for WM, 130G, 11gpt. Sign Peace Treaty with Germany for Peace Treaty, WM, & Nippur. Nippur starts Library.

I - England wants to cancel Wine for Incense deal, re-negotiate for Incense, WM, & 185G (wanted 260G).

1420 AD (4) - Sparta completes Cavalry, starts Galleon. Resistance in Ngome ends. Argos completes Rifleman, starts Cathedral. Lots of WLTKD celebrations. People offer to expand our Palace and give us a new lawn and 2 new levels. Drop Science to 10%, still get Steam Power in 1 and +285G. Will revolt after Steam Power is learned.

1425 AD (5) - Steam Power discovered, switch research to Industrialization., Athens completes Rifleman, starts Rifleman. Pharsalos completes Harbor, starts Rifleman.We are told our people want to build the Iron Works :cooool:. Rhodes completes Harbor, starts Courthouse. Thessalonica switched to Iron Works. Our citizens revolt, should be in control in 5 turns. (:goodjob: we got a short Anarchy period!) Checked all cities to ensure we won't go into civil disorder. Sending workers to connect source of coal near Thessalonica, we have a source connected near Mpondo. Egypt doesn't have coal! Trade Nationalism to China for Medicine, WM, & 1G (all they had). Wanted to trade Steam Power around, but everybody except China has it.

I - Egypt wants to renegotiate Ivory deal,got it for Dyes, WM, & 105G (she asked for 180G).

1430 AD (6) - Moving & working. Multiple WLKTD celebrations end.

I - Babylon loses Kish & Ur to India.

1435 AD (7) - Moving & working. Trade Dyes to China for WM, 6gpt, & 20G. All but China has Sanitation & they all want 591G (all of ours), 14gpt, & WM for it. I will wait.

I - Babylon loses Uruk to England.

1440 AD (8) - Moving & working.

I - Babylon re-takes Ur from India.

1445 AD (9) - Moving & working. Sanitation still too expensive.

I - Babylon loses Ur & Akkad to Germany.

1450 AD (10) - The Greek Democracy is created. :eek: After setting Science to 50%, Lux. to 10%, we get Indust. in 7 with +108gpt. MUCH better than +40gpt in Monarchy. Pharsalos switched to Colosseum. Moving & working.

Summary: The Rifleman in Sparta is waiting to be sent to Nippur when the Galleon is built. I didn't do any Diplomacy on this turn, so the next person should check. Also, Babylon is down to 6 cities and is probably going to be wiped out soon. We miht want to think about taking Nineveh, which had the Lighthouse/Magellan's in it. This would give us the extra naval movement. Also, maybe see about getting Ashur for the Spices/Coal.

Here is the save game:

LK28 1450 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK28-1450AD.zip)

1450 AD (10) - The Greek Democracy is created.
I had suggested Republic, not Democracy. Democracy is a horrid goverment in Civ3.
The only time I form a democracy is with Religous civs.
Democracy is so fragile in war time, that I avoid it.
This choice makes a domination / conquest game very difficult.
Republic can hold for a very long time - take a look at LK26 and how long we have be fighting under Republic.


Thessalonica switched to Iron Works.
:goodjob: Never wait on Iron Works - if the resource expires, you lose you chance for it.
This is a great wonder to have just 1 city from the fp location.

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City Production - BUILD MORE WORKERS.
We gained a lot of cities from the Zulu, and rails are available.
We have a pathetic 16 workers. We should have twice that number at minimum.

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Workers - Rule #8 - Once rails are available, they should be the #1 priority.

:smoke: Just 2 workers to clear jungle? We should commit at least 4 to 5 workers to make it worth our bother.
Of course, with rails available, we shouldn't be doing it are all.

The single biggest human advantage is a rail-net. At that point it is almost impossible to lose
One rails are availble, almost 100% of your effort should be a thin rail-net to connect the cities.
At that point, the game is an guarenteed win (except at Diety).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LAK-100.jpg

My suggested plan.
1) Before moving, cancel all workers with red boxes, and move them along the red arrows.
2) The blue box units should finishes there tasks, and then start on railroads.
3) ONLY road Green box - I agree, get a spare coal on line.
4) White box, build JUST a road.
5) White box, and blue box workers should move to grey box as a starting point.
6) Put every worker into a single square (grey box), then work down the grey line.
7) Green box units should follow yellow line, and start building a rail line there.

===========================

hotrod0823 -
Juliennew -
Tiamat -
Trickey - Playing
alexander dumas - on deck
10 turns per player

Remember - wait for my commentary before moving - not much of a training day without that.

got it, illl have it up tonight.

Lee is there a pic missing. I don't see a map with the worker colors?

Hotrod

:confused:
You should see a pic right after the line
"At that point, the game is an guarenteed win (except at Diety)."

It is there now. Could be my computer my browser acts funny sometimes.

Thanks

Hotrod :)

I am currently playing now, sorry for the hold up, but i dont think ill be able to play the last 3-4 turns for another 5 hours or so.