1. Hi new Civ4 player here. I was wondering when given the choice to build both either War Elephants and Pikemen (assuming you have all the necessary resources and technologies), what would be your choice of units to counter enemy mounted units?

2. Now of course, what might be the more important question is that assuming you can only build one but you might soon have access to building the other (ie, you're very close to getting ivory, iron, etc.), then what would you do?

3. My initial thoughts on this question so far is that War Elephants appear to be a "luxury" unit that if you can build it, you should have some, but only in moderation. I have noticed the AI has a tendency to build a lot of them when they can.

4. I have also found that a good strategy when playing either the Greeks or the Zulus is that it's better to have 2 Phalanxes or Impis than to have 1 Pikeman or War Elephant, both from a financial and strategic point of view. I was wondering if the experts player agrees with that statement.

Thanks for your comments. By the way, I only have the Warlords expansion.

War elephants for sure. Both have str 12 vs. mounted units at the same cost, but war elephants can be useful offensively as well. They are also available much earlier than pikemen.

War elephants for sure. Both have str 12 vs. mounted units at the same cost, but war elephants can be useful offensively as well. They are also available much earlier than pikemen.

Actually that's not how it works, only Combat promotions directly alter a units own strength. All other modifiers work against the unit it's fighting. So what this means is

Pikemen vs.
Chariot: 6 vs 2
Horse Archer 6 vs 3
War Elephant 6 vs 4
Knight: 6 vs 5
Cuirassier: 6 vs 6
Cavalry: 6 vs 7.5

War Elephant vs
Chariot 8 vs 3
Horse Archer 8 vs 4.5
War Elephant 8 vs 8
Knight 8 vs 7.5
Cuirassier 8 vs 8
Cavalry 8 vs 10

Not that this changes your conclusion much. What this all amounts to is the pikeman has a slight advantage on everything below the Cuirassier, and is exactly the same vs Cuirassier and Cavalry. Now does this make up for the 2 base strength difference it loses to the War Elephant? Probably not, add in the stable which gives you level 2 elephants out of the gate and the clear winner is the War Elephant.

But, as was mentioned, you don't always have access to ivory, and iron is more common, so often one doesnt have the luxury of choice.

But, as was mentioned, you don't always have access to ivory, and iron is more common, so often one doesnt have the luxury of choice.

This. War elephants are designed to be a unit that would be really strong, arguably overpowered, if you could get them reliably, but are rare.

I don't like this implementation of them much.

Actually that's not how it works, only Combat promotions directly alter a units own strength. All other modifiers work against the unit it's fighting. So what this means is

Pikemen vs.
Chariot: 6 vs 2
Horse Archer 6 vs 3
War Elephant 6 vs 4
Knight: 6 vs 5
Cuirassier: 6 vs 6
Cavalry: 6 vs 7.5

War Elephant vs
Chariot 8 vs 3
Horse Archer 8 vs 4.5
War Elephant 8 vs 8
Knight 8 vs 7.5
Cuirassier 8 vs 8
Cavalry 8 vs 10

Not that this changes your conclusion much. What this all amounts to is the pikeman has a slight advantage on everything below the Cuirassier, and is exactly the same vs Cuirassier and Cavalry. Now does this make up for the 2 base strength difference it loses to the War Elephant? Probably not, add in the stable which gives you level 2 elephants out of the gate and the clear winner is the War Elephant.

But, as was mentioned, you don't always have access to ivory, and iron is more common, so often one doesnt have the luxury of choice.

I don't think you're doing the correct math. The promotions affect the unit attackings base strength. Then a ration of the modified strength compared to the base strength is determined. That ratio is then applied to the defenders strength. And the combat odds are determined using the attackers base strength vs the modified defnders strength. Example is using a knight. the contemporary mounted unit of pikemen.

unpromoted vs unpromoted.
War elephant 8+50% (12) 8 is 66% of 12 so you multiply the knights strength of 10 by 66%. The odds are then 8 vs 6.66 or 73%
A pikemen is strength 6+100% (12) 6 is 50% of 12 so you multiply the knights strength by 50% The odds are then 6 vs 5 or 73%
With Combat2 and formation the war elephant gains a slight advantage. However an aggresive civ can get formation promotions with just 5exp where a war elephant needs 10. without a GG settled you can not get 10exp from scratch. You can get 9 with barracks/stables/vassalage/theocracy. However mounted units can get shock from the very beginning which negates the formation bonus for the pikes.
I would have to give the overall advantage to pikes for the flexibility in promotions and the ability to take advantage of defensive bonuses.
War elephants are really meant to be strong overall attackers vs stacksin the years before engineering.The high base strength combined with combat 1 and shock (available right from the start without help from civics) means the worst case scenario (attacking a combat2 formation spearman from an aggressive civ running vassalage or theocracy) the combat odds are 50%. without the third promotion they defeat spearmen 69.7% of the time. Once pikes are in play for both sides war elephants are best for stack defense vs crossbows.
I have attached screen shots showing how the end result of the math from above.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd242/civcorpse/pike.jpg

Oops, you're right, my math is off, but you don't quite have it exactly right either. Basically it's (attacker base str + combat bonus) vs (defender base str+(net of all other bonuses involved))

So for an unpromoted WE vs unpromoted knight
WE is just 8 since he has no combat bonus
knight has a -50% bonus from the war elephants mounted bonus which is:
10/(1+(50/100)) = 10/1.5 = 6.66
If the knight had combat 1 it would be 10/1.4 = 7.14
If both had combat 1 it would be WE(8.8) vs Knight(7.14), as combat is the only bonus applied to the attacker, the rest are applied to the defender. I just tested this in world builder and this all bears out.


revised WE numbers(all unpromoted)
vs Chariot 8 vs 2.66
vs Horse Archer 8 vs 4
vs War Elephant 8 vs 8
vs Knight 8 vs 6.66
vs Cuirassier 8 vs 8
vs Cavalry 8 vs 10

I believe that's right.

Pikemen takes engineering, which takes machinery, which is why people say war elephants have no good counter early (especially shock elephants). Also, you don't need horseback riding for elephants in warlords. And shock knights do reasonably well vs pikemen, whereas formation is much harder to get.

Let's say you're using war elephants to counter attack a stack. If you used a spearman/pikeman, it would die horribly to an axe.

Pikemen takes engineering, which takes machinery, which is why people say war elephants have no good counter early (especially shock elephants). Also, you don't need horseback riding for elephants in warlords. And shock knights do reasonably well vs pikemen, whereas formation is much harder to get.

Let's say you're using war elephants to counter attack a stack. If you used a spearman/pikeman, it would die horribly to an axe.

Basically comparing war elephants to pikemen is comparing apples to oranges since they come at very different times. As for the spearman/pikeman dying to an axeman that will never happen...the crossbow would have butchered them way before the axeman ever did :D

So is the basic consensus is Pikemen win out?

Nope, conclusion should be to mix both, and build more War Elephants :) War Elephants can kill Axes, Swords, Longbows, Xbows, and even Macemen.. while Pikes are useless there. So overall I think WE are better and should be built more. Unless you programmed AI to build only mounted units :x.

Promotions matter too, and help highlight the different roles for the units.

When I build a pikeman, I am intentionally building an anti-mounted unit. I have no qualms giving him Combat I & II and Formation, because that's his role.

When I build an elephant, I am building an all-purpose tough unit. I am going to consider the Flanking and Combat promotions, and possibly one of the counter promotions. But I'm not setting out to build an anti-mounted unit here, even though that's one of the unit's traits. I consider that a bonus that helps keep elephants relevant in the Medieval period.

Head to head, I'll take the pikeman. I build those guys to protect my attackers, healers, seige, and with a few xbows and maces, each other.

Elephants come earlier, and are unstoppable until Pikes, or against other elephants.


I vote the elephants.

Basically comparing war elephants to pikemen is comparing apples to oranges since they come at very different times. As for the spearman/pikeman dying to an axeman that will never happen...the crossbow would have butchered them way before the axeman ever did :D

If you go mass stupid monty warring with elephant/axe/catapult, the axes are definitely your only hope vs pikes, but they do quite well there!

What's funny is doing that and wheezing one's way to heroic epic and either vassalage or theo. Cats normally suck vs longbows but not if they're CR III. Early CR III cats are usually reserved for CHA or IMP leaders though.

Against mounted unpromoted elephants or pike are similar, promoted ele are better.
Against non-mounted ele are better.
Ele v. pike, pike are better.
Best regards,

First civ to get a crossbows/elephants combo really really screwed up if they don't end up owning the continent.

I think this is a........

Come on, unless you are the HRE, we are the kings.

First civ to get a crossbows/elephants combo really really screwed up if they don't end up owning the continent.

Why?

What conceivable difference do the crossbows make? Shock elephants can protect your stack from maces and axes can protect it from spears and pikes.

I would attack with elephants/catapults/axes. Thats an awesome combination that doesn't really start to falter until the AIs have engineering. By which time you should have a lot of territory to consolidate.

Why?

What conceivable difference do the crossbows make? Shock elephants can protect your stack from maces and axes can protect it from spears and pikes.

I would attack with elephants/catapults/axes. Thats an awesome combination that doesn't really start to falter until the AIs have engineering. By which time you should have a lot of territory to consolidate.

I don't see what special threat engineering affords. There will be some pikes but typically the unit you have to get through remains the longbows (they're a lot more prevalent, and elephants will tend to have shock, not cover. Lbows will have CG, pikes will not, so pikes will only be marginally better than them and more rare). If pikes are really a problem just CR axes or even swords will usually handle that. The most painful enemy tech jump points for cat/axe/elephant are feudalism (where every city defender will cut down way more catapults) and gunpowder.

Muskets can, of course, kill anything in that stack with relative ease. Generally speaking though this stack is good until then with some exceptions. HRE really can screw you with engineering since the axes won't hold. Japan can make things miserable as elephants are not immune to first strikes and shock elephants aren't going to have flanking II (and toku will likely have access to formation if needed on his UU). China will screw you just with the collateral. Rome will get in the way with its UU even though you can still beat it. Finally, while SB doesn't get any units that would especially dominate this, massed CG III archers from a high unitprob AI is just loads of "not fun" for a catapult war.

Of course, all that is for the AI. Any effort involving massed siege defensively will seriously reduce the life span of this stack. Combat longbows or even axes start getting >50% odds vs elephants somewhat quickly after a few cats. AGG and PRO hold an advantage in this realm of course, as both have access to formation after 2 promotions. One doesn't see many formation longbows from a protective AI, but if you think about it that would actually be threatening to elephants as elephants can't get cover and aren't typically immune to those first strikes. ANY collateral would set the elephant pretty far back vs a feudalism PRO guy. Of course, C2 formation would be serviceable against shock elephants post-siege, too.

So while elephants are very, very good, the extra very is from AI stupidity. Otherwise they're just very good ;).

1. Hi new Civ4 player here. I was wondering when given the choice to build both either War Elephants and Pikemen (assuming you have all the necessary resources and technologies), what would be your choice of units to counter enemy mounted units?

Pikeman. This unit is dedicated to defending against mounted and does not get killed by mistake against enemy xbows or maces.

2. Now of course, what might be the more important question is that assuming you can only build one but you might soon have access to building the other (ie, you're very close to getting ivory, iron, etc.), then what would you do?

If I am still looking for a anti-mounted unit (meaning I am sure to face many mounted units), I would wait for the pike even if Ivory was linked up. Perhaps bring some elephants as alternative attackers once the CR melee units are drained/open field fighters.

3. My initial thoughts on this question so far is that War Elephants appear to be a "luxury" unit that if you can build it, you should have some, but only in moderation. I have noticed the AI has a tendency to build a lot of them when they can.

Good observation. You should not count on having access to Ivory, and thus, the War Elephant is a luxury. Use them if you have Ivory (early Elephants can be devastating - in Warlords they do not req Horseback Riding), I would say use them to some extent if you tech right for Constr. Cats/Elephants makes a fine stack until the enemy has Engi or Feu.

4. I have also found that a good strategy when playing either the Greeks or the Zulus is that it's better to have 2 Phalanxes or Impis than to have 1 Pikeman or War Elephant, both from a financial and strategic point of view. I was wondering if the experts player agrees with that statement.

... Depends on lots of things. First of all, How are Phalanx in Warlords (this unit has been changed alot, and in BtS it is an axeman with 100% against chariots, not a spearman)?
It also depends on how lategame it is. If the enemy has HAs, War Ellies or Pikes will outweight the lesser, cheaper units. Since this will probably be the issue once you have Pikes, I would not suggest using this strategy (then again, I am not a Warlords player).

I don't see what special threat engineering affords. There will be some pikes but typically the unit you have to get through remains the longbows (they're a lot more prevalent, and elephants will tend to have shock, not cover. Lbows will have CG, pikes will not, so pikes will only be marginally better than them and more rare). If pikes are really a problem just CR axes or even swords will usually handle that. The most painful enemy tech jump points for cat/axe/elephant are feudalism (where every city defender will cut down way more catapults) and gunpowder.


Engineering brings two threats - castles and pikes. Castles mean that suddenly catapults take forever to knock down defenses - and launching attacks against longbows and pikes behinds +100% defenses doesn't get you very far.

Pikes on defense do very well against elephants - and your CR axes and swords won't be attacking them, they will be fighting longbows or crossbows instead. Which means that casualties will mount quickly as every attacker is well countered.

I agree feudalism is going to be painful - but as long as you can knock the defenses down reasonably quickly and pummel the longbows with a few suicide cats, elephants can take down longbows. Unless of course we are talking about a protective leader - CG3 longbows will laugh at this attack.


Muskets can, of course, kill anything in that stack with relative ease. Generally speaking though this stack is good until then with some exceptions. HRE really can screw you with engineering since the axes won't hold. Japan can make things miserable as elephants are not immune to first strikes and shock elephants aren't going to have flanking II (and toku will likely have access to formation if needed on his UU). China will screw you just with the collateral. Rome will get in the way with its UU even though you can still beat it. Finally, while SB doesn't get any units that would especially dominate this, massed CG III archers from a high unitprob AI is just loads of "not fun" for a catapult war.


Muskets aren't too much of a threat - you never face too many of them as the AI can't insta-upgrade to them. But I've never seen the AI with gunpowder and not engineering, so I am probably consolidating by then.

Any protective leader will definitely screw you with engineering and half price castles. In fact they will probably screw you at feudalism/machinery. I don't particularly fear AI CNK's - they don't really know how to use them. And Toku will take forever to get Samurai's so they aren't a concern.


Of course, all that is for the AI. Any effort involving massed siege defensively will seriously reduce the life span of this stack. Combat longbows or even axes start getting >50% odds vs elephants somewhat quickly after a few cats. AGG and PRO hold an advantage in this realm of course, as both have access to formation after 2 promotions. One doesn't see many formation longbows from a protective AI, but if you think about it that would actually be threatening to elephants as elephants can't get cover and aren't typically immune to those first strikes. ANY collateral would set the elephant pretty far back vs a feudalism PRO guy. Of course, C2 formation would be serviceable against shock elephants post-siege, too.


Luckily the massed seige will be on my side vs the AI :)

Its not worth putting formation on a protective longbow. The problem is that most units formation is good for are immune to first strikes and drill 2 is wasted. On defense CG3 would be much better and on attack you don't get to pick your defender so more general purpose promotions are more useful.


So while elephants are very, very good, the extra very is from AI stupidity. Otherwise they're just very good ;).

The same is probably true for Praets, Immortals, Quechas etc too. Eg a human player can just build warriors to neutralize Quechas. I think war elephants are in the same league as the more powerful UUs - but are essentially a random UU that you can get if you have the resource, regardless of the leader.

I like them for that - but I would like ivory to be rarer - the most likely counter to your war elephant stack is another war elephant stack since one deposit of ivory often means there are more. And I'd like to see a few other rare-resource-units to add a bit of flavor.

War beavers?

Engineering is good too because of the extra road movement which mmakes defence easier.

^^ war dogs, the romans used them a lot :D

And one of the historical counters for elephant formations were burning pigs, the elephants got out of control from the noises.

Pigs are quite common in civ though, but I like the bacon missile unit idea.

Why?

What conceivable difference do the crossbows make? Shock elephants can protect your stack from maces and axes can protect it from spears and pikes.

I would attack with elephants/catapults/axes. Thats an awesome combination that doesn't really start to falter until the AIs have engineering. By which time you should have a lot of territory to consolidate.

I'm talking when they have pikes. (6*2) > 8, which is more of a threat than 6 < (6*1.5), which is the xbow formula.

Is a mathematical difference "conceivable"?

Generally jumbos are going to be the better choice, same base strength as macemen. BTW, castles are pretty worthless unless you're playing Spain, in which case it's like a stable for cannons if you hold off on economics for a bit, citadel cannons+conquistadors is brutal.

Engineering is a vital tech though, especially if you don't have elephants, it provides trebs which take down city walls much more quickly than catas. I see pikemen as more of a fringe benefit, they do get defensive bonuses but generally you want to play offensively. It's a good idea to keep one in any medieval stack so you can take advantage of terrain bonuses on defense verses knights, as they get pretty decent odds against elephants considering neither unit gets defensive bonuses.

Its not worth putting formation on a protective longbow. The problem is that most units formation is good for are immune to first strikes and drill 2 is wasted. On defense CG3 would be much better and on attack you don't get to pick your defender so more general purpose promotions are more useful.

The same is probably true for Praets, Immortals, Quechas etc too. Eg a human player can just build warriors to neutralize Quechas. I think war elephants are in the same league as the more powerful UUs - but are essentially a random UU that you can get if you have the resource, regardless of the leader.


If one uses a PRO formation longbow offensively vs an elephant stack, the longbow would immediately benefit from an advantage vs every single non elephant stack defender possible in the classical period. Axes, spears, and even horse archers would be screwed by such an attack on average. Elephants would fare slightly better, but ANY kind of siege (even just one catapult most likely) would push them to losing odds in a hurry.

Drill II is not wasted for this particular situation at all ---> elephants are not immune to first strikes unless they go with flanking II, but then they don't have combat and will fight more poorly anyway. As one would typically promote units as the units are needed to fight (with the exception of some stack defenders when on offense), drill II formation is a reasonable counter to an elephant/axe/cat stack. Fortunately, as a human you will never see such a counter from an AI.

Good point on the cheap castles for PRO and engineering. I forgot about castles and how badly they screw cats...although don't forget that cats aren't really disadvantaged hammer-wise when it comes to bombarding castles vs trebs. It's just that both are painfully slow without overwhelming numbers :(. Thanks to base EP cost not scaling with speed for city revolts maybe some marathon players who get great wall could just use spies, but that's about it.

As for the UU thing, I agree. I frequently refer to elephants as a "second UU" in this game, because for all intents and purposes that's what they are. Unless you're khmer, where your UU is a semi-rare unit that is BARELY better than its base unit...such a niche use that one wouldn't see it in 90% of games or more. It's still strong if you can get it though...only because it's still an elephant.

In other news, barrack obama has been elected president of the united states.

Revive a post from 2007? Really?

The fact that we're comparing units from different eras is a testament to how damned good war elephants are.

Both cost the same. Pikes are a counter to knights and war elephants, especially for stack and city defense, but also to pick off pillagers. The fact that pikes receive defensive bonuses should not be overlooked. Due to their high base strength and immunity to first strikes, knights pose a threat to solitary longbows, so a pike is the answer. Pikes are a specialty unit, war elephants are for more general use in the previous era. Prior to having medieval units, elephants make the best single-unit city defender despite having no defensive bonuses. :confused:

hey, a elephant& catapult combine is owesome before longbow comes.

The fact that pikes get terrain defensive bonuses is a massive difference.

I'd rather a few pikemen in my SOD or in my city for this reason.

The only time you need Pikemen is if you're defending against many medieval or later mounted units; in this case, they do better than elephants especially since they get defensive bonuses and you should always use your cities/terrain to your advantage. Pikemen really do bad against non-mounted units - ancient era units like Axemen can eat them for breakfast.

In any other case, War Elephants are a far superior unit - give them CI/Shock and they can devour any Classical Era units. They also come much earlier than Pikemen. The only problem is finding Ivory. Even if you are facing a few Knights here and there, Elephants will do and Pikemen are not needed.

It's amusing that the AI knows the damage you can do with ele's and they'll refuse to trade you Construction if you've got ivory, hehe...

The real question is, why does the AI have construction before you when you have elephants.

The real question is, why does the AI have construction before you when you have elephants.

Because if you have it first, you have not REXed enough.

Plus on the higher levels, they just DO.

Yeah really Elephants are dumb, and I've stopped using them because of how much they dumb down the game. I only use elephants if the AI has them, and only use one elephant for every 1 elephant of the AIs I see. I really don't get this almost fanboyish desire in games to make elephants overpowered, but I suppose its like Rome in this game too *sigh*.

No doubt, Elephant > pike. Pike is only better on the defense, comes later, doesn't get to trash everything in its era, doesn't get extra promotions from the stable to make it even better against the units that are designed to counter it. Even in the same era you'd only want one or two pikes at most per stack, other then that just shamelessly spam elephants in classical and skip almost all strategy *sigh*.

"Fortunately" for the AI, they always have elephants whenever I do. They just don't spam them as obscenely as I tend to do. In fact I chortled almost to death when I saw one build a chariot... ON PURPOSE, when he could have built an elephant. I think their unit build choices are at best random.

I'm talking when they have pikes. (6*2) > 8, which is more of a threat than 6 < (6*1.5), which is the xbow formula.

Is a mathematical difference "conceivable"?

Not really - crossbows won't help you attack pikes - since they will face longbows or crossbows instead. They will just give you better defense against an enemy trying to kill your jumbos. My argument is that you are far better off capitalizing on jumbos immediately on getting construction and not waiting until you get crossbows.

Me I would skip crossbows altogether. With such a big military advantage on construction you can afford to neglect military techs and head straight for liberalism and gunpowder. By the time your elephants are countered you will have so much territory that your economy will need to consolidate anyway.

If one uses a PRO formation longbow offensively vs an elephant stack, the longbow would immediately benefit from an advantage vs every single non elephant stack defender possible in the classical period. Axes, spears, and even horse archers would be screwed by such an attack on average. Elephants would fare slightly better, but ANY kind of siege (even just one catapult most likely) would push them to losing odds in a hurry.

Drill II is not wasted for this particular situation at all ---> elephants are not immune to first strikes unless they go with flanking II, but then they don't have combat and will fight more poorly anyway. As one would typically promote units as the units are needed to fight (with the exception of some stack defenders when on offense), drill II formation is a reasonable counter to an elephant/axe/cat stack. Fortunately, as a human you will never see such a counter from an AI.


Your drill2formation longbow will lose more often than not to a combat 2 elephant. And I can't see you making enough of them to make a difference - since they only really counter one unit in the game. I think you would score more kills with a CG3 longbow on defense and it would be more versatile for you later.


As for the UU thing, I agree. I frequently refer to elephants as a "second UU" in this game, because for all intents and purposes that's what they are. Unless you're khmer, where your UU is a semi-rare unit that is BARELY better than its base unit...such a niche use that one wouldn't see it in 90% of games or more. It's still strong if you can get it though...only because it's still an elephant.

Agreed - it would be great for the Khmer if their elephant was resourceless. That alone would be enough to fix it.

Your drill2formation longbow will lose more often than not to a combat 2 elephant. And I can't see you making enough of them to make a difference - since they only really counter one unit in the game. I think you would score more kills with a CG3 longbow on defense and it would be more versatile for you later.

Staying on the defensive usually screws you against the siege that usually accompanies such stacks. Indeed, I am advocating using siege defensively here. A combat II elephants will beat a formation longbow from drill to my knowledge, but the tide turn quickly if the elephant is damaged at all.

The idea is to promote as needed and cut the AI down BEFORE it owns you with siege. Now, if the AI is being its usual stupid self an had like 6 elephants and 2 cats sure, just use CG III. Occasionally you'll get an AI that's set to prioritize collateral in the XMLs (like bismark) and those guys actaully do bring enough siege to hurt.

Longbows are a stopgap here but they'll do the job.

Because if you have it first, you have not REXed enough.

Why REX when you have unstoppable killing machines that can take the land?

Plus on the higher levels, they just DO.

You aren't beelining hard enough then.

Why REX when you have unstoppable killing machines that can take the land?



You aren't beelining hard enough then.

Beat the AI to construction on every start on immortal or deity and say that again :lol:.

There's a limit to what you can do if you don't get some insane commerce start. Cat/phant/axe will still have a window...but getting to it first and actually having enough production to mount a decent force? Doubtful you'll attain both without a nice start. The AI likes construction quite a bit (and it's not like it matters a great deal if they have construction, be thankful it didn't beeline monarchy then feudalism).

Beat the AI to construction on every start on immortal or deity and say that again :lol:.

There's a limit to what you can do if you don't get some insane commerce start. Cat/phant/axe will still have a window...but getting to it first and actually having enough production to mount a decent force? Doubtful you'll attain both without a nice start. The AI likes construction quite a bit (and it's not like it matters a great deal if they have construction, be thankful it didn't beeline monarchy then feudalism).

Well, it depends on who the neighbours are, and what speed you're playing.

Ok, if you really really want construction first on higher difficulties:
You probably should bulb mathematics while saving gold. Then tech masonry/construction. To do this fast, you won't have hereditary rule, but at least you have ivory (right?). So you'll probably have 2-4 cities working almost exclusively cottages, depending on map size.

2 simply isn't enough production to overcome the AI, even if you are lucky and can switch to all mines. 4 might be if you convert, but you probably won't have monarchy unless you can trade for it. If you have monarchy, you can go all farms, grow like crazy and whip stables in 1-2 cities.

I'm highly doubtful you'll have enough elephants defeat their initial stack and then attack a city. Unless it's gandhi.

crossbows won't help you attack pikes - since they will face longbows or crossbows instead.

I'm talking stack D coverage versus melee. Apple, meet orange.