Unlike the Nature thread, this thread can discuss Barbarians and Wild (animal) stuff.

Barbarians:
- Dragons (probably the Cold Drakes would be best, since they had larger numbers)
- Goblin Warriors
- Goblin Spearmen
- Goblin Archers
- Goblin Wolf Riders
- Wargs

(All done by Chugginator already :)).

Maybe Human Bandits as well? Only problem would be that they would be allying with filthy orcs ... Well it can always still be a possibility :goodjob:


Wild Animals:
- Boars
- Giants (they may exist, they may not; only Bilbo has seen them, and he has a wild imagination for sure)
- Spiders
- Trolls (like the Cave Troll variety)
- Wolves

If you're wondering where I got the idea for boars: http://www.tuckborough.net/animals.html#Boar
Ok, so they're only mentioned once in the Appendices in the Everholt ... I still think raging boars would be cool! :crazyeye:

As for Dragons: well, Sauron couldn't control them like Melkor could. Perhaps Dragons could spawn around the map at the end of the Second Age? They would definitely be tough.

Now I'm starting to think: Should Dragons and/or Trolls fall under barbarians? Afterall, there were Cave Trolls serving under Moria, but there were also "wild" Trolls who probably didn't go about raiding. As for the Dragons: If you look at Smaug, he burned down Lake Town (thus entering Cultural Borders), but at the same time I have a hard time seeing Dragons taking over cities ...

hmm... Cave trolss... i think you must add Stone Trolls (The Hobbit :D ).

Not only goblins, i think there must be Half-Goblins, Warewolfs, Vampires...

Good ideas. A few points: Smaug took the city of Erebor, why not dragons take cities? I see humans allying with orcs easily. See the people of Isengard and other evil men, as well as groups of outlaws (Túrin's group was really a nasty one before he took leadership). I'm not sure if the Cold Drakes are more common or more numerous, there are just two references to them that I know (in the attack against Gondolin and on the Appendix of LoTR). Common wolves should be animals, but warg shouldn't, as they attacked cities (the battle of the five armies, for example). Giants were not really mentioned, but Tolkien's original idea was that giants destroyed Isengard, before he designed Ents, so I think they really existed.
Now, about goblins and orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountains in general were independent, but in the same time they allied with Sauron many times, and they showed a central power structure, for example in the wars against the dwarves and the Battle of the Five Armies. They were not under direct control of Sauron, but they yet did his will, and were all guided by Melkor from out of the world; and, in my first design of The Shadow civ, it would include all this. It was a "all-the-bad-guys" civ, and included not only Mordor/Angband, but also Moria with the Balrog, the Misty Mountains goblins, Smaug, and everything Morgoth/Sauron could use for their ends, even if not under their direct control. But many things in the mod changed (Saruman became a leader of the Dunlendings, we now have more human and dwarvish civs, etc), and I'm not sure about this view anymore. Anyway, we should have roaming bands of orcs and Trolls anyway, and maybe small "cities" as well, even if we keep the old Shadow idea. Or maybe we should split the goblins of the mountains in a barbarian civ altogether...

that's what i had proposed back in the day, though to repersent the "alliance" between the Shadow and Barbarians, we could have, as in FFH, a "barbarien" trait, which gives peace with the barbarians. this trait could be given to both shadow and angmar

hmm... Cave trolss... i think you must add Stone Trolls (The Hobbit :D ).
They were actually Hill Trolls, which were a smarter lot of Trolls (able to talk in the Common tongue and such). If someone makes a Cave Troll model, it could just be reskinned to make it into a Hill Troll, which I imagine would be tougher ;)

Not only goblins, i think there must be Half-Goblins, Warewolfs, Vampires...
Half-Goblins? Maybe. Werewolves and Vampires? I would say no to. Never in Tolkien's works did he have Werewolves or Vampires wild: they simply served Morgoth.

Good ideas. A few points: Smaug took the city of Erebor, why not dragons take cities?
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm more worried about game balance at the beginning. If Dragons were running around near your single city ... Yeah, you're screwed :p

I see humans allying with orcs easily. See the people of Isengard and other evil men, as well as groups of outlaws (Túrin's group was really a nasty one before he took leadership).
I was specifically thinking of Túrin's outlaws when I was thinking about the human Bandits. I thought that they hunted orcs even before Túrin joined them? That's why I'm starting to think against human Outlaw Barbarians

I'm not sure if the Cold Drakes are more common or more numerous, there are just two references to them that I know (in the attack against Gondolin and on the Appendix of LoTR).
This has more to do with the Third Age. The Grey Mountains STILL, even into the Third Age, have Cold Drakes residing there (as they took that mountain range from the Dwarves). Smaug was said to be the last of the flying dragons in the Third Age. I would assume that there were more Cold Drakes in general then their flying, fire-breathing cousins.

Common wolves should be animals, but warg shouldn't, as they attacked cities (the battle of the five armies, for example).
Good point about the wolves and wargs, I would agree.

Giants were not really mentioned, but Tolkien's original idea was that giants destroyed Isengard, before he designed Ents, so I think they really existed.
Are you thinking about adding Giants into the mod then?

Now, about goblins and orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountains in general were independent, but in the same time they allied with Sauron many times, and they showed a central power structure, for example in the wars against the dwarves and the Battle of the Five Armies. They were not under direct control of Sauron, but they yet did his will, and were all guided by Melkor from out of the world; and, in my first design of The Shadow civ, it would include all this. It was a "all-the-bad-guys" civ, and included not only Mordor/Angband, but also Moria with the Balrog, the Misty Mountains goblins, Smaug, and everything Morgoth/Sauron could use for their ends, even if not under their direct control. But many things in the mod changed (Saruman became a leader of the Dunlendings, we now have more human and dwarvish civs, etc), and I'm not sure about this view anymore. Anyway, we should have roaming bands of orcs and Trolls anyway, and maybe small "cities" as well, even if we keep the old Shadow idea. Or maybe we should split the goblins of the mountains in a barbarian civ altogether...
Keep the Moria Goblins split. Although Sauron did send Black Uruks to the Orcs of Moria, they more or less followed their own whims. I should point out that the Orcs of Moria stayed where they were even after the Ring was cast into Mt. Doom. Elsewhere, all serving Mordor basically ran away.

Although, in a sense, its not like the Moria orcs were siegeing anything and needed to run away ... I still stand by my case ;)

that's what i had proposed back in the day, though to repersent the "alliance" between the Shadow and Barbarians, we could have, as in FFH, a "barbarien" trait, which gives peace with the barbarians. this trait could be given to both shadow and angmar
That's a wonderful idea, but how about having to earn this trait by a particular tech in the tree? All Evil civs (minus Evil Men civs) would be able to research this tech, while the Good civs could earn a "Nature" trait from a particular trait.

Of course, you could loose favor from these civs (like cutting down trees of the Nature civ, by not sending aid to the Barbarian civ, etc.).

They were actually Hill Trolls, which were a smarter lot of Trolls (able to talk in the Common tongue and such). If someone makes a Cave Troll model, it could just be reskinned to make it into a Hill Troll, which I imagine would be tougher ;)


Fall from heaven has those models.

I'd agree with most of what you said, except the Cold Dragons. If there were many of them, why so few get any importance on the story? Probably there were many more flying dragons when they were used against the Valar, thought most of them perished them. About the goblins of Moria and the Misty Mountains, I must agree with having them as barbs. Specially if we can make them have peace with The Shadow and other evil civs... Making evil have peace with barbs and good with the nature later on the game would be great. If it's a leader trait it might need a quite deal of work, but maybe it works. Perhaps make it related to religion (Worship of Darkness and Reverence for Nature... Those religions would give further less bonuses, but have this plus) or even civics (the "racial" civics could be adapted to it easily).

We need a pythoner or C++ person...

As soon as I finish the XMLs I'll return to the Python learning, I promise.

how far are you?

Well, I did the Religions, the Civics, the Techs, and the Corporations, so it's still a long way. But not every file needs to be edited, and some may be easier than I suppose - my part is quite simple, after all.

what are we doing for corporations?

languages or cultures? or something else?

Half-Goblins? Maybe. Werewolves and Vampires? I would say no to. Never in Tolkien's works did he have Werewolves or Vampires wild: they simply served Morgoth.

Actually, Sauron commanded some vamps and werewolfes, he could also transform into a vampire.

Yes, but only while serving Morgoth...
And for Corporations, we have commercial groups (some ficticial, most with invented names). The ones I remember are Southfarthing's Pipeweed, The Mithril Workers, Gwaith-i-Mirdain, Erebor Artificers, Ered Luin Iron, the Guild of Venturers (a Numenorian guild of explorers - not ficticial name!), Dorwinion Wine, Balar Pearls, the Guild of Armorsmiths. I'm not sure about how many there are, and don't know if I forgot any...