It kinda bugs me how nuking people causes global warming for -you-, and the large (it says small, and it lies) chance of a nuclear reactor going Chernobyl. In reality, the chances of a nuclear reactor blowing up (if it was efficiently made, unlike the one in Chernobyl) are similar to your chances of being abducted by aliens, and nuclear weapons will cause pollution, not global warming, and only in areas that have been nuked.
Anyone know a way this can be fixed?

*I'll admit, I'm being picky... but I've been researching nuclear power lately and seeing this in the game I play frequently annoys me.*

you can disable the meltdown chance by editing th Civ4BuildingInfos.XML for nuclear plant. I dont remember the exact tag, but it's kind of self-explanatory (sometihng like "NuclearExplosionProbability").

Global warming can also be turned down via xml, Civ4GlobalDefines.xml iirc.

In your Assets/XML/ folder, find the file GlobalDefines.XML. In there you can change the chance of global warming from 20% to anything you like.

Thanks. ^^

Normally I'd worry this could make things unbalanced but... uranium is rare, and this makes building the SDI a higher priority.

It kinda bugs me how nuking people causes global warming for -you-, and the large (it says small, and it lies) chance of a nuclear reactor going Chernobyl. In reality, the chances of a nuclear reactor blowing up (if it was efficiently made, unlike the one in Chernobyl) are similar to your chances of being abducted by aliens, and nuclear weapons will cause pollution, not global warming, and only in areas that have been nuked.
Anyone know a way this can be fixed?

*I'll admit, I'm being picky... but I've been researching nuclear power lately and seeing this in the game I play frequently annoys me.*

sorry if i sound kinda nit picky, but a nuke going off affects the whole world, if a nuke were to be detonated in the jet stream it would spread radioactive fallout across the whole planet for months, if not years to come. the fact is that nuclear power also is not flawless, have you ever heard of three mile island, that incident was at a plant much better built than Chernobyl, and that site almost nuked half the east coast of the us, including dc. nuclear power is much more dangerous than people like to think, the fallout from Chernobyl actually was detected all the way around the world.

3 Mile island caused no illness and no death. =P
Nuclear power is cheap, efficient, and safe. Environmentalists just paint it to be an evil thing so people will fear it.
Just look at France if you want to see how safe, efficient, and cheap nuclear power can be.

3 Mile Island was hyped up by the press but it was no Chernobyl. The area is still habitable by humans and animals alike. The idea of a nuke affecting the entire world is extreme and just plain silly. Multiple nukes, as in more than just 3 or 4 might have the ability to affect more people but it won't be the end of the world.

It kinda bugs me how nuking people causes global warming for -you-, and the large (it says small, and it lies) chance of a nuclear reactor going Chernobyl. In reality, the chances of a nuclear reactor blowing up (if it was efficiently made, unlike the one in Chernobyl) are similar to your chances of being abducted by aliens, and nuclear weapons will cause pollution, not global warming, and only in areas that have been nuked.
Anyone know a way this can be fixed?

*I'll admit, I'm being picky... but I've been researching nuclear power lately and seeing this in the game I play frequently annoys me.*
LtBob's Gamecore DLL includes an option (which by default is off, but easily changed) that instead of random tiles turning to desert, random tiles will get fallout.

I've used his DLL and turned the option "on" in my Wolfshanze Mod, so that you get fallout instead of desert tiles from too much nuke use. Fallout can at least be cleaned up.

Check Seven05's World Piece mod, he has some nice changes for global warming: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254299

sorry if i sound kinda nit picky, but a nuke going off affects the whole world, if a nuke were to be detonated in the jet stream it would spread radioactive fallout across the whole planet for months, if not years to come. the fact is that nuclear power also is not flawless, have you ever heard of three mile island, that incident was at a plant much better built than Chernobyl, and that site almost nuked half the east coast of the us, including dc. nuclear power is much more dangerous than people like to think, the fallout from Chernobyl actually was detected all the way around the world.

Have you ever been to Hiroshima? It's a thriving metropolis.
Nuclear technology may be villified by the media, but that does not mean it is genuinely dangerous when properly handled.
Nuclear power is the cleanest and safest way of generating power on a large scale, and nuclear weapons only spread a limited amount of fallout in the area that they are detonated.
Of course a weapon detonated in the jet stream would spread fallout over a large distance, but the actual intensity of said fallout would be lower than natural background radiation.
Lastly, nuclear meltdowns and nuclear weapons do not cause global warming. At all.

The concept in-game is fundamentally incorrect.
I was quite surprised, considering the level of complexity of some aspects of the game, that this was retained as such a simplistic element.

A Short scientific de-bunking:
I think the confusion in this thread arises from the notion of a Large number of nukes exploding. But, this would casue a 'nuclear winter' and hence a global Cooling.(due to the level of ash, particales, smoke from fires etc being ejected into the atmosphere and hence reflecting away large amounts of sunlight).

Thus, Nukes are not, indeed fundamentally CANNOT be responsible for an increase in global warming, and should not be connected with it in any way within Civ4.

Another basic misconception apparent here is that radiation does eventually reduce to a livable level. Its constantly happening right now around you, as noted above- 'natural background radiation'. That is what radiation is- a decaying process. A nuke simply creates a VERY high level in an extremely short time, saturating its local environment with VERY quickly decaying particles. This kills plants/animals etc by bombardarding them at the atomic level and organic tissue is to soft to withstand this.

This radiation can be short-term, but this depends on the type of nuke, its yield, and the amount of times the site is nuked. Hiroshima was destroyed by a very low yield fisson bomb (as opposed to todays fusion monsters) and yet remains livable because that was a low yield bomb, and was only bombed once. That said, those who remained in the are for several years immediately after were of cousre subject to far-above normal radation levels. But, it Did eventually decay to an 'acceptable' level.

The fear is that a large scale exchange of nukes, with multiple bombings of the same target, would render an area saturated with very high levels of radiation and thus take a long tiime to become usefull. E.g., Hiroshima was not as irradiated as it would be today if someone used a modern ICBM, with its multiple warheads, on it.

So,
1.Nukes do not cause global warming.
2. They CAN cause global cooling if they are used on a Large scale- ie more than 10, in a short period.10 nukes of 100years will definately cause a lose of heat, but nothing drastic. 10 nukes used within 24 hours, aimed at major urban centres, would definately casue a large loss of sunlight.

In-Game:
Following on the above:
1. Nukes should only cause fallout locally (already done), but this fallout should also spread as a plume in a (for game purposes) random direction, for a random distance. The health penalty, and dameage done to units within the immediate city cross of a nuking should be much greater. It should also last longer.
2. Multiple use of nukes should cause an exponential increase in the spread of icecaps, tundra and snow, from both poles. The current random appearance of a desert tile is simply ridiculous. IIRC,its actually a holdover from Civ2/3??

Anyone care to attempt this in python? I have no such skills myself:)

HDK

i need to clear up a few things, first, three mile island was a partial meltdown, the major damage was averted, but the reactor is no longer usable, and it almost did what i said, nuked half the east coast. next, as far as Hiroshima goes, the reasons why its habitable today are that it was a. a atomic bomb, not thermonuclear or hydrogen, and b. was terraformed after the war to make it habitable again. had it not been terraformed, it would still be much more radioactive. as for the type of bomb, the amount of radiation put off is proportional to the force of the blast, thermonuclear bombs are much more powerful than atomic bombs, thereby putting out more radiation, and hydrogen bombs are much more powerful than thermonuclear bombs and give off more radiation than thermonuclear bombs. the key is the force of the bomb, the more force=the more heat and heat=radiation. tactical nukes in this game are pretty much termonuclear bombs. icbms in this game are pretty much hydrogen bombs. now do you see where this is going.

3 Mile island caused no illness and no death. =P
Nuclear power is cheap, efficient, and safe. Environmentalists just paint it to be an evil thing so people will fear it.
Just look at France if you want to see how safe, efficient, and cheap nuclear power can be.

Nuclear power is safe, its what you do with teh waste which is the problem, not so much how you store it, but how you get it to the storage without terrorists easily attacking it and causing a Chernobyl.

I've even seen security footage of a train carrying nuclear waste being derailed, catching on fire, etc. and no massive leak happening.

And for storage, we (well, America) have Yucca, which is an engineering masterpiece.

The concept in-game is fundamentally incorrect.
I was quite surprised, considering the level of complexity of some aspects of the game, that this was retained as such a simplistic element.

A Short scientific de-bunking:
I think the confusion in this thread arises from the notion of a Large number of nukes exploding. But, this would casue a 'nuclear winter' ...

Thus, Nukes are not, indeed fundamentally CANNOT be responsible for an increase in global warming, ...

...

So,
1.Nukes do not cause global warming.
2. They CAN cause global cooling if they are used on a Large scale- ie more than 10, in a short period.10 nukes of 100years will definately cause a lose of heat, but nothing drastic. 10 nukes used within 24 hours, aimed at major urban centres, would definately casue a large loss of sunlight.

A bit of de-bunking your de-bunking :)

The so-called 'nuclear winter' effect is a lot of speculation and models designed to simulate its effect have consistantly shown a short term period of reduced temperatures. Depending on how large scale the nuclear exchange is the effect would last from several months to a couple of years, not enough to justify the growth of the polar ice caps or have a significant long-term effect on climate temperatures such as expanding regions of tundra or 'permanent' snow & ice. What several of the models have shown to be the most significant effect is a long term decrease in precipitation caused by the short period of cooler temperatures. Not severe enough to start turning the world into a desert mind you so I'm not defending the default Civ4 global warming.

While a nuclear explosion by itself will not create a lot of pollution commonly associated with global warming the area that is destroyed by it will. All of that soot spit into the air has to come from somewhere and when carbon based materials burn they release both CO2 and CO among other things. CO2 will remain in the atmosphere much longer than solid particles. The destruction of the local landscape can also have a significant impact on the eco-systems ability to recover.

The Chernobyl incident was what, 23 years ago now? There are still many areas in and around the city with lethal radiation. There are also nearby areas that are perfectly safe and areas within the city itself where the levels of radiation are tolerable. Its not really possible to model that in Civ4 so some sloppiness should be expected.


In-Game:
Following on the above:
1. Nukes should only cause fallout locally (already done), but this fallout should also spread as a plume in a (for game purposes) random direction, for a random distance. The health penalty, and dameage done to units within the immediate city cross of a nuking should be much greater. It should also last longer.
2. Multiple use of nukes should cause an exponential increase in the spread of icecaps, tundra and snow, from both poles. The current random appearance of a desert tile is simply ridiculous. IIRC,its actually a holdover from Civ2/3??

Anyone care to attempt this in python? I have no such skills myself:)

HDK
I've actually addressed a lot of this in my mod, but none of it in python. I added 'pollution' to the equation and seperated the effects of 'nuclear winter' and 'global warming' entirely.

Pollution is generated by cities and some improvements and 'absorbed' by unimproved terrain and some features. The end result is that the world has a certain tollerance to pollution but that level of tollerance isn't static because as the world develops the surface of the world changes. Various technologies can reduce pollution output while others increase it, it's even possible to reverse the effect by decreasing pollution output bellow the level of pollution tollerance. Interestingly ehough that would require a global effort which won't happen in a Civ4 game. Anyway, the pollution level determines the possibility and likelyhood of global warming. Global warming manifests itself in two ways- first you have the climate change which I was only able to simulate with the addition of climate specific terrains. The effect of climate change is subtle, it changes 'cool' tiles (cool, not cold) into 'temperate' tiles and those into 'warm' tiles. Overall this has almost no direct effect on the world since the yield values of a 'temperate grassland' are identical to those of a 'warm grassland.' The second global warming effect is unstable weather. These events are similar to the existing BtS random events except that they can happen anywhere in the world (rather than for a specific player) and their effect is based on the climate once the location is selected. Since the most severe effects require warm climates the climate change explained first can indirectly increase the severity of these events. I also am currently testing the newest festure where I 'melt' ice features which then has the possibility of turning coastal land into water elsewhere in the world.

Nuclear winter is a very different effect for me. Since the short term cooling effect wouldn't justify an ice age I chose to go with severe droughts as the only visible effect of the nuclear winter. This downgrades the terrain from grass->plains->desert depending on the climate with the effect being most severe in warm climates and all but non-existent in the cool climates. Since global warming can potentially enlarge the war climate area it has the possibly of making this event more severe.

I significantly increased the power of nuclear weapons in two ways. First, they cause more damage to units and cities on impact, they can also potentially destroy cities if that city has no 'nuke immune' buildings or units in it. They also create more fallout (see below) and destroy all features and improvements in their blast radius. Additionally, ICBMs create a crater when the impact on a flat tile with no city, craters are useless terrains that can't be improved. This ties in with global warming by adding pollution for every feature and improvement destroyed, this is a one-time burst of pollution unlike the other forms of pollution.

Fallout in my mod does a couple of things differently than the base game. First, it can drift around randomly which increase the damage potential of both meltdowns and nuclear weapons. Fallout also has a chance of turning the tile it is in into wasteland which is unusable terrain. Any tile turned into wasteland also permanently loses its resource if it had one.

It's quite fun really, and if you're into that sort of thing you have some new ways to destroy the world. It's all SDK changes though, python is a bit of a performance hog, especially with some of these effects which were seemlessly integrated into existing methods in the DLL so as not to affect permance at all (until they start changing terrains which can cause a ms or two of a delay).

Seven05,
I checked out your mod, sounds great! Downloaded and will try out later. Seems very impressive and strongly similar to my own preferences - ie under-the-hood accuracy and reasonableness using the current game, rather than swamping with new models and suchlike.(i mod my own Civ4 installation, rather than using as set mod). A final icing on the cake would be if you could link the fire/smoke ffect from riots/plunder to nuclear weapons- ie, the bomb explodes, fallout all over the gaff, and smoke, fire, screams from the city. As it is, the city just decreases in size, and yellowy fallout appears.

th3flyboy,
You still a wee bit wrong- youre confusing thermonuclear and hydrogen..
"Nuclear bomb" covers the fisson bomb (or A-Bomb as it was inaccurately called), while Thermonuclear covers the modern Fusion bombs, which utilise a form of Hydrogen and heat (hence Thermo) &pressure to increase the detonation.

Intresting thread....
HDK

Seven05,
I checked out your mod, sounds great! Downloaded and will try out later. Seems very impressive and strongly similar to my own preferences - ie under-the-hood accuracy and reasonableness using the current game, rather than swamping with new models and suchlike.(i mod my own Civ4 installation, rather than using as set mod). A final icing on the cake would be if you could link the fire/smoke ffect from riots/plunder to nuclear weapons- ie, the bomb explodes, fallout all over the gaff, and smoke, fire, screams from the city. As it is, the city just decreases in size, and yellowy fallout appears.
Yeah, a few more visuals for the nukes would be nice... at least I have a post-apocalyptic wasteland, just not a firey one :)

A word of warning on the pollution though, if you play anything other than the World_Piece map scripts it is possible for the pollution to get out of control earlier than intended, especially on smaller maps with extra opponents. I've put in some 'cheap hacks' to help prevent it but it still happens.