I am new at this but i won a cultural victory on a real world map with right starting spots.. I had all the wonders of the world and controld what was France, Brit. islands, Germany, russa, greece, North africa, eghipt, the what wold be araba, spain, norway, sweden, finland, [ if thay had them], india, china, and most of the island in the pacifc ocean ... allso what wohld be pannaml and parts of s. america o ya and all of the mediteranean sea... im a bad speller :( ..... well i was the farthes ahed with tec. and spred the communist govermant.. a strang thang is that all the democract and republic civs. had a team and all the communist civs had a team team and all was had wars whith one another but thanks to me communisam won......:D

Originally posted by RedBaron635
im a bad speller :( .....
Yes, it's really terrible. I'm from the Netherlands and even I am better then a American. That's unbelieveble.

Iberian Peninsula has Spain and PORTUGAL! Personally, I hate to be called spanish. Would you like to be treated as Mexican? And yes, You'll have to learn English.
And one thing, communism is good to war times, democracy to peacefull times. Use one or another according to your strategy.
Good luck to your games...

dont make fun of me..... i have a disabilty that makes it hard for me to spell but im good at all other stuff [but math]........:(

OK. Sorry...

its ok:cool:

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity

Yes, it's really terrible. I'm from the Netherlands and even I am better then a American. That's unbelieveble.

Not at grammar, though.

Indeed, but I'm from the Netherlands and I think I can make some mistakes in English as a Dutchman. But he is an American.

But we all know what your meaning and we understand it, and that's where it's all about. So, it's ok. ;)

Yeah let's compare ourselves to guy with a learning disability. C,mon guys my spelling and grammar was poor in high school and didn't help having teacher who never had enough time for you ( even though they seemed to have time to do a spot of shopping over lunch break ). Over time my writing and reading skills improved. Don't be discouraged RedBaron635, I understood your message and your future contributions in these forums will only improve your writing skills.... Keep on gaming

RUBICON.

Just because someone is an American dosnt mean he/she can read and write perfect English. You must remember, America is a culturally diversed nation, with much Spanish, French, Italian, etc, so do NOT put someone down for not spelling or writing right, and do NOT poor more remarks on him/her because their an America. That is the most stupidest (ya I know it is not a word) thing I have ever heard. Get over yourself.

All right, all right. Thousand times sorry. (so good?) ;)

And now: let's continue with the real thread. :D

English is not the official language of the USA. There is no official language. If there was, NYC wouldn't have to print their election ballots in fifty different languages. This was something that our forefathers said years ago.
Granted, for all intents and purposes English is used by most people and is the cultural language of the USA - predominant newspapers, television (other than the spanish channel), and radio are about 99.9% English. But that doesn't make it the official language.

Originally posted by Jason The King
Just because someone is an American dosnt mean he/she can read and write perfect English. You must remember, America is a culturally diversed nation, with much Spanish, French, Italian, etc, so do NOT put someone down for not spelling or writing right, and do NOT poor more remarks on him/her because their an America. That is the most stupidest (ya I know it is not a word) thing I have ever heard. Get over yourself.

I'm sorry because he told he has a problem with it and I wrote what I wrote without being fair. I apologised, and he accepted.
And yes,being an American makes me think you should write English better than I do (and You write Portuguese worst than I).
It's a mother tong advantage!
You are in a chat channel, not in an exam, but even that you are Russian or Australian or Welsh (all with bad accents...), if you live in an English-speaking country you should write better than a person who doesn't live there. And try to speak in an understandable way. There are people who know more than 10 languages. Who lives in Central Europe has to know more than 3 or 4.Anyone who leaves outside an English-speaking country knows at least 2. Why can't you learn only 1?

Originally posted by zeeter
English is not the official language of the USA. There is no official language. If there was, NYC wouldn't have to print their election ballots in fifty different languages. This was something that our forefathers said years ago.
Granted, for all intents and purposes English is used by most people and is the cultural language of the USA - predominant newspapers, television (other than the spanish channel), and radio are about 99.9% English. But that doesn't make it the official language.

Do the government give instructions in more than 1 language?
In EU, the European Comission always do so in 9!

Not entirely sure, but most government documents that I've seen either have english and spanish, or have a paragraph that explains how to get the document in spanish. Other than that, it is up to the language speakers to have the documents translated.
However, all high school students are required to have a certain amount of credits in English, which may add to the national language debate. There simply is not a document that says that English is the national language.

Originally posted by zeeter
English is not the official language of the USA. There is no official language. If there was, NYC wouldn't have to print their election ballots in fifty different languages. This was something that our forefathers said years ago.
Granted, for all intents and purposes English is used by most people and is the cultural language of the USA - predominant newspapers, television (other than the spanish channel), and radio are about 99.9% English. But that doesn't make it the official language.

Sorry, but in the Netherlands the US is the symbol for the English language. That makes that all Dutchman think that every American speaks English very well.
Thats a bad picture of the US (I know that now), sorry. Now I know better.

Originally posted by Portuguese

...And yes,being an American makes me think you should write English better than I do (and You write Portuguese worst than I)...
...if you live in an English-speaking country you should write better than a person who doesn't live there. And try to speak in an understandable way...
Portuguese, you are absolutely right!

hey i thought this was gonna be a story?!

The first post was the story, then it went into an argument about languages or summit.

Originally posted by Portuguese

And yes,being an American makes me think you should write English better than I do (and You write Portuguese worst than I).
It's a mother tong advantage!
You are in a chat channel, not in an exam, but even that you are Russian or Australian or Welsh (all with bad accents...), if you live in an English-speaking country you should write better than a person who doesn't live there.

This is kind of harsh. There are many people in America who don't speak or write english grammatically well. Many of these people are from homes where it was more important to leave school and work to support the family than to go to school to learn how to write well. Also, there is a large population here who grew up basically on the streets. If you hang around with people who speak a certain way, you're going to begin to speak that way.

We can learn all the English we want in school, but when we go home and our families are all speaking Spanish or Chinese, its difficult to retain what was learned in English.

I have, in haste, probably typed grammatically incorrect posts here or ones with mispelled words. And my dad's an english professor (retired)!

Does this mean that these people should be banned from posting to civ-fanatics for bad grammar and spelling? I don't think that is fair. Its also not fair to criticize these people. There probably are many things that you do that these people do better. Maybe this person is a roofer. You may be able to spell better than him, but he can put you to shame patching a roof.

Originally posted by Caeser_Augustus
hey i thought this was gonna be a story?!
Yes, it WAS. But then I showed up and said something about bad spelling and grammar and then it went in a discussion about that. I've already said we should continue with the real subject, but certain people continue and so do I. :D

Originally posted by zeeter


This is kind of harsh. There are many people in America who don't speak or write english grammatically well. Many of these people are from homes where it was more important to leave school and work to support the family than to go to school to learn how to write well. Also, there is a large population here who grew up basically on the streets. If you hang around with people who speak a certain way, you're going to begin to speak that way.

We can learn all the English we want in school, but when we go home and our families are all speaking Spanish or Chinese, its difficult to retain what was learned in English.

I have, in haste, probably typed grammatically incorrect posts here or ones with mispelled words. And my dad's an english professor (retired)!

Does this mean that these people should be banned from posting to civ-fanatics for bad grammar and spelling? I don't think that is fair. Its also not fair to criticize these people. There probably are many things that you do that these people do better. Maybe this person is a roofer. You may be able to spell better than him, but he can put you to shame patching a roof.
I've already said that the US is the symbol of the English language for Dutchman. I guess every European thinks that way, also people from Portugal.

Originally posted by zeeter


This is kind of harsh. There are many people in America who don't speak or write english grammatically well. Many of these people are from homes where it was more important to leave school and work to support the family than to go to school to learn how to write well. Also, there is a large population here who grew up basically on the streets. If you hang around with people who speak a certain way, you're going to begin to speak that way.

We can learn all the English we want in school, but when we go home and our families are all speaking Spanish or Chinese, its difficult to retain what was learned in English.

I have, in haste, probably typed grammatically incorrect posts here or ones with mispelled words. And my dad's an english professor (retired)!

Does this mean that these people should be banned from posting to civ-fanatics for bad grammar and spelling? I don't think that is fair. Its also not fair to criticize these people. There probably are many things that you do that these people do better. Maybe this person is a roofer. You may be able to spell better than him, but he can put you to shame patching a roof.

1st, sorry for the delay. I don't have access to internet at home and so I had to wait till september...

2nd, bad grammar and spelling shouldn't mean bans. Please don't over react to my words. You and I are free to make how many mistakes we want. se wat i maen.

3rd, if you learn a language at school since you're little and you have to know English since little to understand the world outside, you should know it. I, in Portugal, must know Portuguese. You, in US, should know English.

4th, if you didn't know well English, I don't blaim you. But I can make a comment about it. If you complain, I apologised, since I'm not so proud to don't apologise.

I'm not mad at you.
I just wish you understand my point of view and, preferibly, agree with it :)

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity

I've already said that the US is the symbol of the English language for Dutchman. I guess every European thinks that way, also people from Portugal.

Yes, we do. Of course.

But if they want to teach Portuguese at schools, I'd very glad.
Portuguese is difficult to learn to foreigners, but if you learn it in your childhood, you can speak other languages easier (same for German language, I think)

I'd like to see it... maybe some day...

Originally posted by Portuguese

3rd, if you learn a language at school since you're little and you have to know English since little to understand the world outside, you should know it. I, in Portugal, must know Portuguese. You, in US, should know English.


Not to beat a dead horse, but there are literally hundreds of cultures in the USA. Mostly immigrants. If you walk into a Chinese restaurant there will often be only one or two people who even speak English. Some of the younger ones speak english very well, but the first and even second generation people often speak broken english or no english at all.

The same goes for spanish families. Whole sections of cities in Miami and southern california do not speak english, or do so poorly.

I'm not sure how many different cultures there are in Portugal because I've never been there. But over here everyone is from somewhere else, thus the mulitude of cultures. Many of these people are more interested in making money to support their families so that their young ones can have a better life. Leaning to speak and write english well is not a top priority.

In Portugal there are people from: ex-colonies in Africa(speak Portuguese), Brasilians and Timorenses (speak bad Portuguese), Eslaves (Russian or similar, much more common since 1989) and Gipsys (they seem to us as hispanians seem to US people). Portugal is small but there are plenty of differences between different regions (Minho, Oporto, Center, Interior, Lisbon, After Tagus, Algarve, Madeira and Azores).
However, Portuguese is essencial to live here. One of this days, I heard in the news that a former vice-minister of work of an ex-soviet republic is working as a stonemason here due to lack of Portuguese. And all the labor in major contructing companies is done by eslaves who have degrees in medicine, economy or something like that.

I see TV (US series...) so I think I know what you are speaking about. Chinatowns, Little Italies and Hispanian ghetos proliferate in US biggest cities. Inside them, people doesn't need to speak in English. Even Portugal has a street like that (in New Jersey, next to New York) where you don't need to speak other language than Portuguese and the 10th of June is celebrated.
Speaking english is not so important in US because a larger country can support larger comunities that can support easily non-english speaking persons.

However, you cannot escape from this: English is dominant!
The US president does all his speaches in US English (he only said some words in spanish during the campaign to capt votes from some of the 20.000.000 hispanians the US has...)
The main TVs transmit in English. Other TVs have little share from market niches.
The institutions like the supreme court and the army have names in English.
...

I know English is not the ONLY language in US. And even that some people live in America without even knowing English.
But to put in question that English is the official US language... I would like (Who vote for Portuguese? :) ), but I can not.

Brazilians speak bad portuguese...
Sorry, but I don't think so...
Do you really know brazilians?

Adding to the point... the reference for english is not US...
English = England, go figure!

Thats not exactly the point that I was making. I'll not argue with you that English is the predominant language. It most certainly is. However, there is no document stating that English is the national language. There was talk of making the national language French at one point, but I don't know where that came from. This was centuries ago.
I was simply trying to point out that there are many people who do not speak english in the USA and do quite well. Granted, most of these people perform menial labor such as fruit picking, cooking (behind the scenes), or some other job where they have no contact with the public. Some, however, advance quite nicely in the church or within their communities. Some fewer still are able to advance by way of starting a business and going national using bi-lingual public personas.
What I'm saying here is that it is not necessary to speak, read, or write english to live in the USA.

No, it certainly is not necissary to speak english in the U.S. for those jobs, but to do less labor work and do something to do with huge buisnesses, it is almost essintial to know english, or you simply won't get hired.

No, English is not the language of the U.S. officially, but it is behind the scene

This does not mean it is a sin per-say to not know how to write or speak English, as a great minority don't, but it is essential to prosper.

-Jason

OK Zeeter. I guess you are right on that.

Jason the King: Prosper?!? Interesting thought.

gugalpm: eu estava a tentar explicar ao americano que português e brasileiro são diferentes. E sim, os brasileiros não sabem falar português como um português. "Bad" foi talvez uma má palavra, mas que os portugueses topam os brasileiros a léguas pelo sotaque, isso, tens que admitir. E eu estava a falar de "US english", o que é diferente de "English". Procura porto de mar nas duas linguas por exemplo e verás habor e harbour. Nem o bilião tem o mesmo número de zeros...

You think that english is essential to prosper...
Open you eyes...

Entendido portuguese (seria melhor falar português?)... Apenas entendo que as duas línguas são suficientemente diferentes pra não compararmos quem fala melhor... Claro que admiro e muito o português de Portugal. por exemplo: nem todos os brasileiros têm o péssimo hábito de usar você no lugar de tu... o povo do sul usa o tu, ainda que de maneira errônea...
entendes? um dia ainda visitarei meus ancestrais em Portugal...

Gugalpm: OK. Eu tabém gosto muito dos brasileiros. Excepto talvez os do futebol de praia :mad: :) E fico feliz por saber isso dos do sul. Porque é que não se fazem telenovelas lá?!? :lol:

Wow, portugese is a lot like Spanish (I guess since it is surrounded by Spain!) I can almost understand it.

And yes, it is a necesity to know English to prosper in America. What does "open your eyes" have to do with anything, my eyes are opened, and I don't see what you are talking about.

For what gugalpm said: For example about something to do with Brazil using something, the or America. lol

Jason: Portugal is not surrounded by Spain and Portuguese is not similar to spanish due to that. They come both from latin and so they are similar like 2 brothers are similar.
And do not associate me to Spain. A Portuguese hates that. And I'm one of those...
No hard fellings about it, but try not to associate me with that people again, ok?

Oh, and could you explain the "no fundamental but needed to prosper" thought?
Thx

Uh oh. You don't wanna say Portugal is like spain. Thats for sure. They get fired up about that!

Thx Zeeter!

What exactly do you mean by "that people"?
I am spanish, so I suggest you watch your words! :)

Could this be the start of a Spain/Portugal war??? Call Geraldo now!!

Who is Geraldo?!?

Geraldo Rivera - he's a much maligned investigative reporter in the US. He went to Afghanistan during the early part of the war and spent some time on the front lines getting shot at (allegedly) so that he could further his career. The stories were more about him getting shot at than about the actual conflict. He's the ultimate definition of self-promotion.
He's also the guy who had a live special TV event about uncovering a safe that belonged to Al Capone (a well known mobster in the US in case you hadn't heard of him). The highlight of the night was when the safe was opened and instead of finding valuable mobster materials, it held a couple of empty champaign bottles. Boy, was his face red!!

Ah ok. Now say something to be able to custom your avatar :D

Jason... ok, I now understand your post...
I thought that you mentioned that people that don't speak english cannot prosper...

So, Portuguese, you guys (Portugeuse people) don't want to be associated with Spain. Still two enemies (not politically)?... For, the Americans around here, see it like this way: Portuguese people think they are surrounded by the sea. The sea is their ally, and Spain and Spanish is the enemy. Am I right, Portuguese; although, that's what I learn on school about Portugal.



I'm learning much more about the USA here than on school, you know. I did'nt know English ISN'T the official language there. Dutch people don't know those things. Earlier said by me: here (in Holland) the USA is the very symbol for the English language. That comes because Dutchmen think English is superior then Dutch. Dutchmen like English. Dutch is now about 1/3 English, you know. We "overthrow" loads of words from the English language. But know I discover English is not even the official language in the USA.

I don't think that Spain is the enemy of Portugal. I think that it is more a case of they are this small strip on a landmass that is predominantly spain. Many people assume that they are virtually the same as Spain. However, they have a different language and apparently a different culture. I've never been there nor had any association with a Portugese person (not by design, just by chance). Therefore perhaps someone from there can explain this a little better.
It strikes me as odd that the Spaniards never conquered Portugal. They had to have had a larger army, just based on the comparisons of their landmasses.

Portugal has been in some occasions a Spanish province. For example in the 16th century, the Golden Age of Spain. In 1578 the King of Portugal, Sebastian was his name, died in battle in North Africa. Felipe II of Spain was the nuncle of Sebastian so he had some right to claim the throne of Portugal. The Nobility refused to recognize Felipe II as their King so Felipe II sends The Duke of Alva (13 june 1580) to conquer Portugal. Two months later (14 august 1580) Portugal and all her colonies belong to the throne of Spain. When Felipe II died Portugal became once again independent. If you study the history of Portugal you can't do without involving also the history of Spain. In the time of the Romans it was one province, the province of Hispania, although the region of what now is Portugal was called Lusitania. When Rome fell a German tribe called the Visigothen (this is the Dutch name, I don't know it in English, sorry guys) took possession of the hole peninsula. But not for long cause once Mohamed the prophet died, the Arabs expanded through the Middle East, Turkey and North Africa, they even conquered Spain and Portugal only to be stopped at the Battle of Poitiers (France) in 732 by Charles Martel. Then began the slow proces of the Reconquista and that's when Portugal and Spain where separated from eachother. Both fought their battles against the Arabs and in 1492 the Arabs where finally expelled from the peninsula by the Catolic Kings of Spain, Isabel and Ferdinand in the Battle of Granada (2 january 1492). The peninsula was free again, Spain was reunited but now there were two kingdoms, Spain and Portugal. Spain and Portugal have been enemies, especially when colonies were involved but they have also been allies when it was needed (against Napoleon for example, Wellinghton became commander of the Spanish Army but his headquarters were in Portugal). But it is a fact that Spaniards and Portugueses are not the same. There are many differences. The first is the language. It's not the same language, they are both Roman languages buth they are verry different. I for example don't understand a word of Portuguese but I do speak Spanish perfectly. Second is the culture. In the Spanish culture you can still see the Arab influence of hundred years of occupation, that's in Portugal less because the Arabs were expelled much earlier. And a third difference is one that makes us laugh a lot. You see, everybody knows that Portuguese women have a moustache so a joke here is that a razor is the most popular gift in Portugal for Mother's Day (It's just a joke, no offence). My point is that Portugal and Spain are not the same although their roots are the same. But what is true is that the Kings of Portugal were often relatives of those of Spain. Hope its a little clearer now

You could have used at least three blank lines inside that huge block of text to make it less painful to read it. Otherwise, very informative.

Hey, while I was gone for a couple of days many things have been said here!!!
Originally posted by CivilopediaCity
So, Portuguese, you guys (Portugeuse people) don't want to be associated with Spain. Still two enemies (not politically)?... For, the Americans around here, see it like this way: Portuguese people think they are surrounded by the sea. The sea is their ally, and Spain and Spanish is the enemy. Am I right, Portuguese; although, that's what I learn on school about Portugal.

1st, CivilopediaCity…
Yes, sea is our ally. Our gold period was when Portugal turn to sea and overseas and not when Portugal turned to Europe. Spain blocks our way to the Central Europe and is a threat to us. They try to assimlate us all the time through history and any people who suffer this kind of pression never likes it!
They are dumb, dirty, too proud to see their own errors and faults and too possessive. The woman there are two futile and the man are lation machos with no real reason for that.
I would not like to be like them and I hate when people confund me with them or say that Portugal is like Spain.

PORTUGAL IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM SPAIN!!! Thank God!

Originally posted by zeeter
I don't think that Spain is the enemy of Portugal. I think that it is more a case of they are this small strip on a landmass that is predominantly spain. Many people assume that they are virtually the same as Spain. However, they have a different language and apparently a different culture. I've never been there nor had any association with a Portugese person (not by design, just by chance). Therefore perhaps someone from there can explain this a little better.
It strikes me as odd that the Spaniards never conquered Portugal. They had to have had a larger army, just based on the comparisons of their landmasses.

Enemy... today conquering countries is no longer as easy as in other historical periods. Today, it's time to nationalism to have a chance! Today they just try to occupate this "terrain that always should have belong to them" economically (culturally is quite difficult...). Iberian Peninsula is most Spanish than Portuguese but it's not a David-Golias question: we are bigger than David!

Yes, many people say we're the same :mad: Don't do that and tell your friands not to do that. As I told you before in this post, it is not plesant to be confused with such a people.

Language: pronunciation is Very different, written words are simillar enough to sometimes cause misunderstandings. Culture: very different. Portugal has even very different cultures within itself. In Europe, there are too many cultures for a statian (people from US...) to understand, cose the US were always unites.
I give you the example of Portugal. Moors have occupied the south much less time than the north. Then, North people (like me...) are much more religious (christians...) than southerns are. And they have much more suicides than we in the north have. Portugal is a bunch of cultures and Spain also, but Portuguese like to keep distances. We only copy them a bit at bull fights, but our are different and less bloodly than theirs...

Portugal tried to conquer Portugal many times. They achieved that once (1580-1640, although in Macau for example the Portuguese flag was never substituted for a Spanish one :) ). However, landmass and superior pop is nothing compared with our differences. Jus imagine in CIV3 a people that always saw your moves and always culture flip back. :)

Originally posted by Alva
Portugal has been in some occasions a Spanish province. For example in the 16th century, the Golden Age of Spain. In 1578 the King of Portugal, Sebastian was his name, died in battle in North Africa. Felipe II of Spain was the uncle of Sebastian so he had some right to claim the throne of Portugal. The Nobility refused to recognize Felipe II as their King so Felipe II sends The Duke of Alva (13 june 1580) to conquer Portugal. Two months later (14 august 1580) Portugal and all her colonies belong to the throne of Spain. When Felipe II died Portugal became once again independent. If you study the history of Portugal you can't do without involving also the history of Spain. In the time of the Romans it was one province, the province of Hispania, although the region of what now is Portugal was called Lusitania. When Rome fell a German tribe called the Visigothen (this is the Dutch name, I don't know it in English, sorry guys) took possession of the hole peninsula. But not for long cause once Mohamed the prophet died, the Arabs expanded through the Middle East, Turkey and North Africa, they even conquered Spain and Portugal only to be stopped at the Battle of Poitiers (France) in 732 by Charles Martel. Then began the slow proces of the Reconquista and that's when Portugal and Spain where separated from eachother. Both fought their battles against the Arabs and in 1492 the Arabs where finally expelled from the peninsula by the Catolic Kings of Spain, Isabel and Ferdinand in the Battle of Granada (2 january 1492). The peninsula was free again, Spain was reunited but now there were two kingdoms, Spain and Portugal. Spain and Portugal have been enemies, especially when colonies were involved but they have also been allies when it was needed (against Napoleon for example, Wellinghton became commander of the Spanish Army but his headquarters were in Portugal).

But it is a fact that Spaniards and Portugueses are not the same. There are many differences. The first is the language. It's not the same language, they are both Roman languages buth they are very different. I for example don't understand a word of Portuguese but I do speak Spanish perfectly. Second is the culture. In the Spanish culture you can still see the Arab influence of hundred years of occupation, that's in Portugal less because the Arabs were expelled much earlier. And a third difference is one that makes us laugh a lot. You see, everybody knows that Portuguese women have a moustache so a joke here is that a razor is the most popular gift in Portugal for Mother's Day (It's just a joke, no offence). My point is that Portugal and Spain are not the same although their roots are the same. But what is true is that the Kings of Portugal were often relatives of those of Spain. Hope its a little clearer now

1st, history:
You have said some non-truths there.
When Roman fall, all the 3 Iberian provinces were conquered by Visigoths, not Spanish. They were not spanish nor Portuguese (why hadn't you said that Portugal has ruled Spain? It was the same...)

Visigoths were pulled back to Asturias (very north of the Iberian Peninsula) in 707-711 by the moors. Some centuries later moors start to have differences between them and "Reconquista" began :). In 1000+, Christian territories started to be enough strong to establish in richer areas and moors started to fall.

In 1139, Portugal declared his independence from Leon. At that time there were Portugal, Leon, Castilla, Navarra, Aragon (and perhaps another, not know now...).

Reconquista continued rapidly after. All the christian kingdoms unite their efforts with the help of Franks and in 1243 Portugal had only frontiers with christian territories. Moors were pulled back to Granada, a province in the very south of the Iberian Peninsula.

In the following centuries, politics become important and in 1492, moors were defeated, jewish expelled from Spain and Spain was born by the union of the so called "Catholic Kings". Since then some provinces like Galiza and Batasuna had tried to be independent, but they don't manage it till today...

Portugal begin to declain after Spanish union, slowly but firmelly. Portugal was weak in middle 16th century and wasn't strong enough to avoid conquering in 1580, like you told. Some provinves never accepted orders from Spanish! There is an island in Africa that only obay to Portuguese flag (Spanish had a lion and that was a sign of evil to them :lol: ) and in places in the East (Macau is the best known example...) Portuguese flag was never pulled down and substituted. Even the other provinces never accepted well Spanish domain.

Portugal and Holland both manage to get independent when Britain weakned Spain, in 1640.

Portugal had 3 Spanish kings (too many... :mad:) for 60 years.
Portugal had 34 kings in total since 1139 till 1910 (it's a republic since then...).

Kings were relatives like everywhere in Europe. Queen Victoria (English...) was grandmother of all the great kings of Europe when seh dies...



Portuguese language is SUPERIOR to Spanish! I understand Spanish, but they don't understand Portuguese :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's so good! :D

And yes our culture is quite different, thx!

Same roots, but I prefered to be compared to other latin countries in Europe like France, Italy or Romania.

Hope to make you all see that Portugal is Portugal and Spain is #$%&/"@& to me!
You'd better call me ba$tard, a$$, "#$%$% or another thing you want.
Spanish should be considered a suspension reason...
Thank God TF is not Portuguese...

Hope to have helped! I can answer what you want to know. If you have questions, shoot.

Hope to be informative :)

European History is always very entertaining, isn't it? :p

Yes, cose ot's sooooooo long and complicated.
But it is good to have an idea about it: You can see what went wrong in the pass and what are your options in the future...

Bwa, I study history because I like it, it's that simple! :)

Moderator: Can we move this thread? I enjoy history as much as the next guy, but this thread just won't die!!! Its like that Speaman that stands there and knocks out twenty tanks.

wars with neiborghs are very often
for example, the US has taken lots of territories too
think of Louisiana and orleans of the french, florida from spanish, california and texas from mexico. and so on
i think it happens all around the world and in all times is just like a Civ3 in real life.
as long you keep remembering long past wars they wont end.
by the way, I read in the title Rome!!!!!
and no one has talked about rome!
does now rome means something else?

Originally posted by zeeter
Moderator: Can we move this thread? I enjoy history as much as the next guy, but this thread just won't die!!! Its like that Speaman that stands there and knocks out twenty tanks.
True, true. Sorry...

Zcylen, check the 1st five posts...

heheheheh I Did =)
i just was very interested in the "war" between you and Alva.
i know perfectly well the differences between Spain and Portugal and i do understand the languages since am a spanish speaker too.
Did you guys realize that aaaaaaaall this began just because someone did not expressed well? =)
we all had entered war very quikly, hadn't we? =)
(actually friend of mine is studyng portuguese an school.)
and BTW, every time I play Rome is very difficult to make peace with other nations, they are willing to attack me very offen w/out any reason.

Same here, I am currently playing with the Romans and I am at war with the Aztecs, Greeks and Iroquois at the same time.

I've been reading this interesting thread...
I speak English and Spanish, and a little Italian and German. I'm from Argentina, though I'm living in Spain.

I've been an English teacher in the past, worked with many native-english colleagues, and I can tell for sure that English is best written and spoken in England, meaning no offense for fellow americans... but also not meaning England is less cosmopolitan than the US, for it is not.

For those of us who had to learn English as a foreign language, is always funny to find ourselves writting or speaking it better than Americans, I think mostly because American tourists always expect everyone to speak English, wich is obviously a little presumptuous and unfair. I live in Madrid, and this is a very cosmopolitan city (not as much as NY, though, but pretty cosmopolitan none the less). There's people from all around the world here, and a lot of them use English to communicate, i.e. if a German wants to talk to you, he'll try with English, not German (too unlikely you'll understand it!).

So, in Spain people who can't speak Spanish try to communicate in English, being the French the most notorious exception to this rule. But French, I think, are regarded by most Europeans as the most repulsive nation in Europe (not my personal opinion, just what I've heard...).

I've also lived in the USA, in LA, and everyone "habla una poquito español"!... :P

Bad news for you portuguese guys, I do understand portuguese perfectly - actually I love Brazilian jazz. Does this mean portuguese is not a superior language compared to spanish? I'm sorry, but that one might have been a pretty stupid remark, wouldn't you agree? Besides, being so touchy and "sensitive" about your own country gives the image of not being so self-assured and proud with your own nationality, doesn't it? The exact opposite of the effect you were after.

About the original topic of this conversation, I think the AI tends to attack more often countries regarded as "aggresive". Any info on this?

Its very common for someone in another country to learn to speak a foreign language better than the people who speak the language natively. Its simple if you think about it. You're being taught the correct way to speak the language as dictated by the books.
In the USA when learning to speak the English language properly in school we are fed with outside influences and slang that corrupt this language. The same thing happens in England, though not as much as the English have a bit more pride in their traditions.
In reality, though, the language is really a guideline. You don't really speak the language better than an American, because the language has evolved to it's present position.

You are also not being taught the different dialects common in the USA. To name a few - New England, New York, North Jersey, Philly, Pittsburgh, Mid-Atlantic, Southern, Chicago, Midwest, North-Midwest, Western, Texas, Southern Californian, Northern Californian, North West, Hawaiian.

Each section of the country speaks the language a bit differently. For the most part its the same, but a midwesterner may emphasize or pronounce a word differently than a north easterner. We can immediately recognize most of the dialects and know what they're saying. However, someone from another country that has only heard English in a language class will not recognize this and assume that they speak the language better than the American. In reality, the American understands the language and how it has evolved better than the foreigner.

This is further evidenced by the way the language is spoken in the UK. From my perspective, I recognize three different dialects from the British Isles - Proper English, Scottish, and Irish. You may throw in Welsh as well, but I'm not sure. Since there are only three corrupting dialects of English in Britain it is less corrupted than in the USA. This is why you might suggest that the English speak the language better than the Americans. They do.

Elaboration on my last post -

I am from Philly and spent several years in Pittsburgh. The two cities are only three hundred miles apart, but here is a conversation I had once:

Pittsburgher: Where are yins going?
Me: Huh?
P: Where are yins going?
M: What yins? I don't know where they're going.
P: No. Yins. You [pointing at me] and you [pointing at my friend].

A philadelphian can replace the word "yins" with "yous". Its a bit more discriptive, but obviously wrong. In the south they say y'all. In the hillbilly territory - mountain people from west virginia to georgia - they say you'ins which is probably where the Pittsburgers got yins. Some sections say "you all" which is where the southerners got y'all.

All of these words replace the word "you" which is both plural and singular. They are bad grammar, but have been used so much that they are tolerated now. A foreigner hearing this would be totally confused as they probably had a hard time learning the usage of "you" in the first place.

Originally posted by Zcylen
heheheheh I Did =)
i just was very interested in the "war" between you and Alva.
i know perfectly well the differences between Spain and Portugal and i do understand the languages since am a spanish speaker too.
Did you guys realize that aaaaaaaall this began just because someone did not expressed well? =)
we all had entered war very quikly, hadn't we? =)
(actually friend of mine is studyng portuguese an school.)
and BTW, every time I play Rome is very difficult to make peace with other nations, they are willing to attack me very offen w/out any reason.

I'm a peacefull person. I dont' enter wars. I just made a comment, someone said I was bad and I defend my good name :D
Studying Portuguese? Where are you from?
Do you speak Spanish? So, do you understand the meaning in a portuguese sentence?

(I never heard of that anti-roman sentiment, although Greeks are known for the opposite...)

Petetus, Brazilian is far more easy to speak and to understand, as it is a more "relaxed" language. Try to understand Portugal's Portuguese in the TV or something.
If you do, perfect. But you'd be the very first to admit that to me. Of course you not only speak Spanish and that having lived in Argentina you should have heard many brasilian words during your time there...

Besides, if Portuguese are like these it's not only their fault. Maybe 850+ years of tryings to do culture assimilation have done the opposite effect...

Studying Portuguese? Where are you from?
Do you speak Spanish? So, do you understand the meaning in a portuguese sentence?



I'm from Mexico
and actually I'm studying english and japanese and my friend is studyng german and portuguese.
sometimes he starts talking in portugese and I can "catch" most of the words.
:D

Originally posted by Portuguese
Besides, if Portuguese are like these it's not only their fault. Maybe 850+ years of tryings to do culture assimilation have done the opposite effect...

I'm just not sure about what you mean. Who tried to assimilate who? Spain tried to assimilate Portugal?

Anyway, I was very interested by the comment on different English accents in America and the UK. America is a very spread country, as many american and south american countries are (Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Canada). But I think all these countries, although having some different accents in different areas, don't show as much "language chaos" as Europe.

Take Spain and Portugal for example. Spanish and Portuguese are both roman languages, just like French or Italian. But they are mutations on the same variant of latin. Now consider languages (I stress: languages, not mere accents) being spoken right now in Spain. There is Galego, in the northwest of Spain, somewhat similar to portuguese, and Catala and Valencia, spoken in Catalunya and Valencia, more like a mixture of Spanish and French. And the you even have Euskera in the Basq Country (is not a different country, but a region of Spain), which has nothing to do with roman languages or Latin. Actually, I think nobody knows for sure where did it come from, probably a Celtic language, like Welsh or Irish, though very different to these.

Those are different languages, being spoken in Spain and Portugal, an area I think twenty times smaller than the US. I can't perfectly understand almost none of them (definitely not Euskera), but I can more or less manage to communicate. And I can defenitely understand every accent from the US, although I can't make a word out of Scottish.

Of course Brazilian is easier to understand than Portugal's Portuguese, but I think you missed my point. The point is that the difficulty in understanding a language for a foreigner should never be considered a good criteria in determining which language is better than the other. If any, difficulty should be considered a bad thing. Take Russian for example, or even German, or Japanese, if you want.

The game: I think it was a coincidence, all the democracies ganging up against the communisms. But the most loved/hated tipe of government (see it in the editor) might have something to do with it.

Originally posted by Zcylen
heheheheh I Did =)
iDid you guys realize that aaaaaaaall this began just because someone did not expressed well? =)
:D

Originally posted by Zcylen
we all had entered war very quikly, hadn't we? =)

Yes, we did. You guys are standing pretty on your rights around here. In the Netherlands we do have dialects as well, but nobody is furious when he is compared to another dialect.
In the West we have the very "relaxed" Dutch with loads of English words. In the North we have Frisian. That's quite not-understandable for a Dutchman. In the East you have Drenthish and Groningish. That's quite of 75% German. Then at last you have Limburgian and Brabantian. That's kind of Flemish.
But everything is Dutch (except the Frisian, that's kind of a whole other language).
But if I look around here, foreign people aren't so relaxed if someone compares them with other dialects. Different... Very different from Dutchmen.....

Petetus, that thing of superiority is a Portuguese joke about the Spanish disability to understand us :)

I knew that things about Spain, and I can also say something about Portugal...
Portugal has today 2 different languages: Portuguese and Mirandesis (this last one is a bit ... strange in my opinion as it is only spoken in one "county" for about 10000 persons).

But Portuguese is a very funny language. You can say if a person is from the North and the South, from interior or seaside, or from Portuguese islands (Madeira and Azores).
It's written always the same way, but the accent is sooo different.
If they are from outside, it's pretty easy to say if it is from Brazil, from East Timor, from Portuguese Speaking Africa, or from other country.
Only Brazil has a differen grammar, but the accents are really different and it is rwally difficult to speak Portuguese without accent (there are persons who can... few, but they exist.).
I am from Ponte de Lima and Study in Oporto, so I speak a mixture of these 2 accents.

I think it is weird to most Americans that a so small country like Portugal (less than 100,000 Km2) can be like these, but the differences here are bigger than between a Texan and a New York boy.

Originally posted by Portuguese
I think it is weird to most Americans that a so small country like Portugal (less than 100,000 Km2) can be like these, but the differences here are bigger than between a Texan and a New York boy.
Well, I'm not. Look to the Netherlands: even much smaller and also a few dialects.

Or Belgium!

the size of the country is not important, in mexico there was lots of dialects too before the spanish arrived.
and many words remain almost the same, like:

guanaxuatl = guanajuato
Iscuintli = escuincle
pinachtli = penacho

although the spanish became the official language, many of the words just "transformed" but sound almost the same.
some times when you cant say a word you just make it the way it sound to you.
The aztec names war unpronunciable for the spanish, just try it.
Huitchilopoztli, Coyolxauqui, Texcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl,
I saw in FF8 they say just "quezacot"
even in Civ3 the aztec leader is "montezuma" when the name is Moctezuma from "moc".
but anyways if i had to speak german I'll sound awlful.

Yes, I just give Portugal as example as I know it better, but many places in Europe are good for demonstrating the idea.
Benelux being one of the best...

Sure we are!

What languages do you personally speak, living where you live?

I am a Spaniard living in Belgium and I can speak Dutch, Spanish, French, English, German and Italian. I also studied Latin but that isn't spoken any more of course. :)

You only lack Portuguese...
Why don't you give it a try?!?

Well, I'm only 14 years old, so I haven't studied any languages yet. But I'm Dutch and I speak Dutch, English, German, French, Greek and Latin. I've also had a few words Spanish on school.

Portuguese, I have a Spanish/Portuguese neighbour, so if I have to know something in Portuguese I just knock at his door! ;)
I think for the moment six languages are enough, I also have my History studies at the University of Brussels and I play Basketball, I just haven't the time to study another language now, I am only 20 and have to go out and get stupid. :)

Originally posted by Alva
I think for the moment six languages are enough,
Thanx.
I also have my History studies at the University of Brussels and I play Basketball,...
Also a history freak, hay! Nice, so I am!



Spreek jij Frans, Vlaams of beide? (For the English guys: this is Dutch)

Zoals ik al heb gezegd, ben ik een Spanjaard, ik ben wel zelf in België geboren maar mijn beide ouders zijn in Spanje geboren. Thuis spreek ik dus hoofdzakelijk Spaans, maar ik heb al mijn studies dus in het Nederlands gedaan (of het Vlaams als je dat zo verschillend vindt van het Hollands). Buiten het huis spreek ik dus meestal wel Nederlands, alhoewel ik mijn Frans ook vaak gebruik aangezien in mijn basketbalploeg veel franstaligen zitten uit de Brusselse hoofdstad die geen Nederlands kunnen. Ik gebruik het Nederlands meer dan het Frans, ik spreek ook iets beter Nederlands dan Frans maar ik kan het Frans dus ook zeer vloeiend. Mijn Nederlands is daarentegen perfect. Hoop daarmee je vraag bantwoord te hebben.

Sorry guys for this little piece of Dutch literature, it was just to answer CivilopediaCity's question.

Ja, dat heb je. Thanx.

Guys, now we will return to English!

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity
Well, I'm only 14 years old, so I haven't studied any languages yet. But I'm Dutch and I speak Dutch, English, German, French, Greek and Latin. I've also had a few words Spanish on school.

14 years old & 6 languages :eek:

Ok, ok, you have time... :)

Vai na boa :D

Originally posted by Portuguese
14 years old & 6 languages :eek:
You don't have to be suprised (It was nice that you was.). Because: Dutch is not a major language, but of course we speak and learn our own language. But because there are much larger language in the world, every Dutchman learns English, German and French at school. Since I'm doing the gymnasium (this is Dutch word and I don't know the English one, but I think that is lyceum) I'm learning Latin and Greek too.

Latin and Greek?

Weird...

Who chose that ones? By what criteria?

(no criticism here, just curious...)

Yes, Latin and Greek. That's what you get on the lyceum.
For old textes and inscription, you know.