I've accumulated a lot of vassals through capitulation, but now I'm sick of them and it's time to annihilate them. How can I devassalize them so I can attack them?

You can't, unfortunatly. A silly mechanic in my opinion.

Declare war on someone else - who has boarders with your Vassal...

Sure you can.
Open up worldbuilder (ctrl+W), and choose diplomacy. Select your vassal, and remove the option that says "Vassal of xxx".

I ended up using the worldbuilder trick... silly civ.

I think if you demand stuff from them and they refuse, it's an automatic declaration of war. Try demanding ridiculous amounts of stuff from them to get them to refuse your demands (and if they don't...free stuff!!!) :lol:

i.e. when you demand it from them, there should be an option on the trade table that says "Time for your tribute! Refusal means WAR!!!"

The vassals system is broken. After frustrating experiences like that, I just turned the damn thing off and kept it that way.

[I did consider using the World-Builder to just end a vassal relationship, but it seemed unfair, since my rivals couldn't do that]

I you want to win by conquest, don't take vassals. First making them your vassals and then destroying them would be cheating and an exploit.

even if it says refusal means war, I've never actually gotten it i don't think. It just increases the you made an arrogant demand modifier.

The Time for your Tribute thing only works once, the rest is "Can you spare this for a good friend?"

There should be an option to demand tribute, even if they're a friend of yours, because sometimes you want something by force

Don't take Vassals unless you want to be stuck with them.

If an AI offers Vassalship, take it as they can end the relationship too, and will do if you get mean with them.

I don't remember if I had done this in BTS or if it was in Warlords, but I was able to release a vassal by going to the "What are the current deals we have together" screen, and canceling the vassal option listed there.

Vassals are broken in the Civ IV AI. I tend to turn them off entirely.

I only take vassals, when the game is almost over, because it gives a nice amount of points and then when I'm aiming for conquest victory. Otherwise, vassals are useless.

I you want to win by conquest, don't take vassals. First making them your vassals and then destroying them would be cheating and an exploit.


Almost right... If you want to win by Conquest, make Everyone your Vassal. (or Permanent ally, or eliminate them)

I think if you demand stuff from them and they refuse, it's an automatic declaration of war. Try demanding ridiculous amounts of stuff from them to get them to refuse your demands (and if they don't...free stuff!!!) :lol:

i.e. when you demand it from them, there should be an option on the trade table that says "Time for your tribute! Refusal means WAR!!!"

The trouble is, the vassal can red-out the things s/he does not want to trade or give away, which means that they can choose not to give you something and not have you declare war on them. Completely broken.

Tempacc nailed it in one. You should be able to demand anything, up to and including cities (probably excluding the capital). If they don't want to give up their big production city, time for war again.

Tempacc nailed it in one. You should be able to demand anything, up to and including cities (probably excluding the capital). If they don't want to give up their big production city, time for war again.

A vassal is not a slave state so you cannot demand everything from them. Think of them as protectorates, you agree to protect them and they agree to fight at your side.

Are the vassals still allowed to conduct massive espionage invasions on their master?

Not with Bhruic's patch.

The vassal feature is far from perfect, but if you could demand anything at any time, that would be broken. You drag your vassal into a war and he fights and dies valiantly beside you, and then some years later you just say 'me wants everything you have, precious' and if he doesn't give in, you destroy his cities? He couldn't even defend because he lost his troops in your war.

Imagine the real-world situation. No government would or could act like this... even a dictator like Hitler or Stalin needs pretexts for wars, and finding a pretext for a war against a close ally isn't quite so easy.

I think a good solution would be that you can cancel a vassal agreement after x turns and after that there is a period of additional x turns during which you cannot declare war. This should be more than 10 turns, maybe 20 or 30.

I think a good solution would be that you can cancel a vassal agreement after x turns and after that there is a period of additional x turns during which you cannot declare war. This should be more than 10 turns, maybe 20 or 30.

I like that idea, that makes sense :goodjob:

Hmmm... Well, the diplomatic stuff makes sense, but I think we should have different treatment of civs who have willingly become vassals vs. ones defeated in combat. One who has willingly become a vassal, sure I can see redding out some techs, cities, etc - but one conquered to the point where they surrender? I guess I've always figured that DOES make them a subject state, and unable to refuse any demand. After all, they should be happy you let them live, right?

Oh, sorry, was that my bloodthirsty warlord coming out again? And to think I started CivIV as a peaceful builder and wonder-chaser... See what reading too much of the war guides do for you? :)

I like the vassal option. I vassalize my closest neighbors then use their territory as launch points to attack the next civ. It's great for defense since by the time I have two or three vassals (dozen AI on huge map) any civ I go to war with has to fight its way through my vassals to reach me so I can concentrate on my offensive stacks. Diplomacy is still important with vassals. A vassal that is furious with you will red out (not trade) techs or resources. A friendly vassal can be a great asset as a trading partner and an early warning trip wire for aggresive AI.

- but one conquered to the point where they surrender? I guess I've always figured that DOES make them a subject state, and unable to refuse any demand. )

Incorrect, the way to make a civ a "subject state", is to position your troops in all of their cities while you are at a state of war.... It takes more time than getting a vassal, but can be far more satisfying if you want complete control of your 'vassal'

The trouble is, the vassal can red-out the things s/he does not want to trade or give away, which means that they can choose not to give you something and not have you declare war on them. Completely broken.

you're right tempacc. They can do that. That IS very irritating the way the AI can ask you for whatever they want and you can only get old techs and obsolete resources from them. [pissed]

Anyway, my idea isn't good. Moving on :lol:

Not with Bhruic's patch.

The vassal feature is far from perfect, but if you could demand anything at any time, that would be broken. You drag your vassal into a war and he fights and dies valiantly beside you, and then some years later you just say 'me wants everything you have, precious' and if he doesn't give in, you destroy his cities? He couldn't even defend because he lost his troops in your war.

Imagine the real-world situation. No government would or could act like this... even a dictator like Hitler or Stalin needs pretexts for wars, and finding a pretext for a war against a close ally isn't quite so easy.

I think a good solution would be that you can cancel a vassal agreement after x turns and after that there is a period of additional x turns during which you cannot declare war. This should be more than 10 turns, maybe 20 or 30.

well ... i would agrue that thats what USA did to Iraq after they supported their war on Iran, and Iraq turned on Kuwait ... sure ... the pretext was there but still

meh ... [offtopic]