Hello. The Empyrean religion attracts me because it seems the most "purely good" religion option other than maybe Runes. However, Empyrean doesnt have the benefits the other religions do or if it does, I don't know what they are. I don't see any religious heroes, it's Temple is just a carbon copy of the Order temple... it has no religion-specific buildings...


Is there a point? Is the Overcouncil the ONLY thing?

They have an awesome religious hero. The old malakim one. He has acces to the sun3 sorcery spell and I think the sun 3 summoning too, both great spells.

Their holy structure (Dies Diel) also does something extra over the other ones by giving disciple units an experience bonus. Also, ratha's and radiant guards are simply better versions of chariots and axemen, and they keep their spells when you upgrade them. The other day I even got an event saying the Empyrean had chased the ratcatchers out of town.

Controlling the Overcouncil is the biggest reason to go Empyrean in my humble opinion. I'm a big fan of the AP and UN in BTS, so for me that's enough, but like others have said, there are some other benefits also. There are also events that are Empyrean only, like free units and upgrades that make it worthwhile.

What do you mean, controlling? In the wrong situation, you have no control at all.

I founded it in a previous game. By then there were only 3 civs left, one of them my vassal. For some time, I was alone in the Council and did what I wanted. Then, i somehow spread to the other that wasn't my vassal. Then, he summons Basium and next thing I know, I'm voted out 2 against 1 since I cannot ask my vassal to join the Council (unlike all the other civic options...)

So they start picking policies I don't want, I end up refusing them, THEN I notice this is by now giving me 15 unhappies in my cities so I had no option left but to get out of the council. That I founded...

Once the Overcouncil is activated, there doesn't seem much point in being Empyrean, except if you're the lucky one to build their religious Hero.

Does the Empyrean hero truly grant +1 vote in the Overcouncil? That should help control it.

(FWIW, I've documented some of the benefits of being Empyrean (http://phrasr.com/ffh/pedia.php?p=RELIGION_THE_EMPYREAN))

I agree; the Empyrean are fairly bland as far as FfH religions go. Of course, a large part of its flavor is lost simply because it came too late to get in many 'pedia entries, but the Council of Esus manages to be unique and flavorful despite also being introduced late. It's just hard to tell what the Empyrean really means. Esus is filled to the brim with abilities that emphasize stealth and subterfuge, Overlords has countless 'pedia entries and spells that focus on madness, and all the other religions are similarly well-defined, except for the Empyrean.

Overlords has countless 'pedia entries and spells that focus on madness

While I think it's a good move to make slavery more broadly available, I think this change has made the Overlords a rather bland religion too.

Order: no maintenance problems, military happiness
Kilmorph: mines, production, gold
Fellowship: forests
Order: hell, lower food consumption and all that
Esus: being sneaky
Empyrean: ??
Overlords: ?? there's a flavour of water, but that doesn't have much effect on gameplay

What do you mean, controlling? In the wrong situation, you have no control at all.

I founded it in a previous game. By then there were only 3 civs left, one of them my vassal. For some time, I was alone in the Council and did what I wanted. Then, i somehow spread to the other that wasn't my vassal. Then, he summons Basium and next thing I know, I'm voted out 2 against 1 since I cannot ask my vassal to join the Council (unlike all the other civic options...)

So they start picking policies I don't want, I end up refusing them, THEN I notice this is by now giving me 15 unhappies in my cities so I had no option left but to get out of the council. That I founded...

By controlling, I meant founding it and having the holy city and shrine. This guarantees your name is in the election. If you're planning your strategy around having friends and spreading Empyrean to them and having a sizable membership, then you can be fairly certain to win most if not all of the elections.

I agree it needs more flavor, but the mechanics of it are no different than CoE, only the options.

Empyrean: ??
Overlords: ?? there's a flavour of water, but that doesn't have much effect on gameplay

OO is stated to be strong because of
1. heroes. Saverous is incredibly strong for the time he is available. Not once I wiped out more advanced neighbour with him. Hemah - archmage hero before Strength of Will. No comments.
2. Tower of Complasency and Asylums.
3. Water walking units.

Additional effect for the temple - even more culture.
Cultist spheres: body, chaos, mind, water.
Religious units: lunatic, the drown, stygian guard, eidolon. Undeads and demons.

Let us derive what is OO from all of that. Strength, influence, manipulations with human body (necromancy) and mind, control of seas, knowledge.

(There is a general trend: evil civs like knowledge, good civs like production. Very good - military production.)

---------------------------------

Slogans
OO - Fear the Power
AV - Freedom and Knowledge
FoL - Commune with Nature
RoK - Work and Earn
Order - Serve and Protect
CoE - Decieve, Steal and Kill

Empyrean religion is still something hardly understandable. Yes, they have strong features but they do not feat ideology IMO.

Hey, dont forget the Kraken in OO. You need a priest (or high priest) for that.

I dont agree with Empyrean being bland. Nasty hero, cool overcouncil procedure, but unfortunately the temple does what the Order does. Can it have a different temple? Oh and the Malakim rock if you go Empyrean (1 vote + 1 chalid + 1 teutyboy = 3 votes!!)

Why is the Empyrean hero nasty.

I think the Emphyrean should be all about free thinking. It's temples should increase Great People rate, and perhaps even a specail kind of great person that requires the Emphyrean, the Great Diplomat.

The temple of the Emphyrean and Dies Diei would allow you to assign diplomat speacalists (+1:traderoute:,+2:gp:(Great Diplomat). The Great Diplomat could settle, or could go on a diplomatic mission. The Diplomatic Mission will give a temporary +4 diplomacy measure, and assure that the civilization will vote the same as you in the next Overcouncil meeting. So the person with the Dies Diei would have a greater chance of controlling the Overcouncil because the Dies Diei would give more diplomats.

It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?

It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?

That's just the point, though: The Empyrean aren't all about the sun or banishing the shadow. That's a large part of them, yes, but the light motif belongs to the Malakim (who, granted, have a strong connection to the Empyrean). The Empyrean religion is dedicated to wisdom, understanding, and cooperation.

Regardless, you shouldn't even have to think up a slogan for a religion. In a world as detailed and intricate as FfH, you should know it immedieately. When I think of the Veil, I immediately picture the savant, corrupt and tainted in his pursuit of power, striking bargains with dark forces in a shadowy room outside the public eye. When I think of the Fellowship of Leaves, I immediately think of the elves and druids calling the forest to fend off intruders. When I think of the Empyrean, I can't picture anything. I have no idea who they are or what they're supposed to do beyond a vague description in their 'pedia entry. To be honest, they look like some poorly though-out attempt at making an unambiguously "Good" religion. I hate typing that, because I know it's not true: The dev team has put a lot of work into this world, and I know that everything has its place. Nevertheless, the Empyrean really does look like it was tacked on as an afterthought to balance out the Council of Esus.

I think this can, and should, be fixed. Most obviously, the 'pedia entries need to be filled out (especially for the Ecclesiastic: those Reflection on the State Cults excerpts were the first things I read about the religions). I'd also like to see somebody who died because of the Empyrean showing up in Elizabeth's vision from Cassiel's story: The Empyrean has to be viewable from a different light, or it's too idealistic for Erebus. More importantly, however, it needs to have a distinct mechanical effect on gameplay. Right now, it's just a pale imitation of the Order with a few anti-Shadow spells, and unless you're at war with Esus or the Calabim, there's not much of a reason to follow it.

OO is stated to be strong because of
1. heroes. Saverous is incredibly strong for the time he is available. Not once I wiped out more advanced neighbour with him. Hemah - archmage hero before Strength of Will. No comments.
2. Tower of Complasency and Asylums.
3. Water walking units.

A religion should IMO also give a distinct playstyle even if you didn't found it and can't build any of the religious heroes or wonders. So leaving out Saverous, Hemah and the Tower of Complacency, do you still feel the Overlords is as distinct as the Order/Runes/Leaves/Veil/Esus gameplay-wise?

Anyway, making the Empyream more attractive seems easy to me. Give all Empyrean followers an extra vote in the Overcouncil, not just Chalid.

I think that the Empyream should be all about "My way is the only right way" and "The ends do justify the means".
Think Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python Version) or the "Wheel of Time"s Children of the Light.

meh. For me overcouncil boils down to getting the trade route votes passed and then forgetting about it.. other than that the involvment I have with it is voting no on the rare times I'm not the head to global liberty, which totally ruined me in one game I was playing as the Hippus. Switched to Overcouncil and suddenly my cities are all starving and have 20 unhappiness each due to the war weariness thing from liberty and city states comibned ^^

I think that the Empyream should be all about "My way is the only right way" and "The ends do justify the means".
Think Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python Version) or the "Wheel of Time"s Children of the Light.

That's how I've always pictured the Order.

There's not much source material about the Empyrean, but I imagined them as Buddhist.

Their Civilopedia entry:

Where the Order values law, the Empyrean values wisdom. Adjudication started from the teachings of Lugus and punishment is not based on adherence to a labyrinthian codex of laws, but from direct consol on the merits of each case. Social equality and impartiality are the model between a government and its citizens as well as between empires. As such the Empyrean gives equal voice to small empires as it does those that dominate Erebus.

seems compatible with the Buddhist ideal:

the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states

The Empyrean leaders could only pursue social equality and impartiality if they were free from personal motives like anger and greed. I like to imagine the Empyrean leaders meditating on enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi) (which, in the FfH universe, would probably mean an understanding of the will of the One).

Of course, like any powerful religion, some people will display the outward symbols of the religion without believing its teachings.

My view of the Empyrean didn't happen just because of Varn and his Malakim, though it certainly began there. In my Malakim game, I found the Empyrean to be quite powerful and flavorful. I took their creed to be one of liberty (the sun shines on all), intellect (Light revealing the hidden things of the world), and evangelism (let the light shine on every man). Perhaps this was mostly based on Varn Gosam's and the Malakim's descriptions and backstory, but seeing as they are the only direct examples we have of the Empyrean, I don't see it as a bad place to have started exploring the ideas of a religion we have until now known horribly little about.

I have explored also the synergies between the Kuriotates and the Empyrean, and those two seem to mesh quite well. Cardith Lorda the polymorphed dragon king leads his band of motley outcasts to construct a new kingdom founded on the ideas of freedom and creativity. That seems very Empyrean to me.

Various neutral civs could find a home in the Empyrean that does not conflict with their nature or change their alignment - the Amurites and Sidar (Yes, I know. How counterintuitive! But really think about it. It is better for them than Esus in some situations.) don't do poorly with Empyrean as a state religion, and even the Ljosalfar (under Arendel Phaedra of course), and Cassiel could find use in the Overcouncil, if not the Empyrean religion itself.

I've always found rationalizing away apparent differences to be one of my strengths. That's the beauty of the game as it is: Despite whatever "official" background there may be, one can take the suggestions provided in it and make one's own little story.

One of my favorite games to play is as a renamed Dain the Caswallawn. I call him Marden the Chanter, and he runs straight for Council of Esus and Gibbon Goetia. Of course there's still the same usual beaker spamming that the Amurites thrive on, but it puts a new spin on the outlook and strategies I have from turn one.

I suppose what I really am saying is that a little creativity and enjoyment of what one has goes farther than constantly begging for more new features, or complaining about the ones we have already. Sure, some things don't work well, and sure there are quite a few balance issues, but I'm a firm believer in the team's ability to do as they have stated: Get all the nifty features, bells, and whistles implemented, and then really worry about balance and perfecting the finished product. They're doing pretty darn well so far.

That's how I've always pictured the Order.

The Order just seems a bit to tame, its there to combat AV, but gets along OK with the other religions. The Empyrean (with their Radiant Guard) and Sun spells speak to me of people who would view Fellowship of the Trees as heathen tree worshipping - and want to save the souls of its follows (by killing them if necessary).

For the record I think that the Over and Under council should be separated from religions and somehow work on Alignment. Neutral players can join (and leave) either (but not both). Good must join Over, Evil must join Under.

Thats how the councils are now.

It is pretty clear that you have the Empyrean and the Order confused. "While the Order wages war, the Empyrean Discusses."


The Order is the one that would go so far as to kill those who won't follow their laws. I is a fanatical religion that tries to force everyone inot compliance
with their laws and traditions "for their own good." Also, it is definately the Order that oppresses the heathen religions. The Empyrean and the worshipers of Sirona are basically the only other religions condoned, and even then with some suspicion/oversight to make sure they don't speak out against the Code of Junil. (They also force the normally peaceful priests of these religions to join crusades they don't believe in)

The Empyrean values Wisdom, not obedience. It tries to help its followers enlighten themselves. It doesn't seem like it would claim that everything about the other religions is wrong, but would try to use what wisdom their gods had given them to lead them towards a higher good. They are the Peacemakers. I've always considered the Story of Varn's escape from the Shadowed Vale to be a retelling of the Allegory of the Cave, and thus considered the Empyrean to be a highly Philosophical, rational, and Eudaimonaic religion.

Still, the Empyrean shouldn't be without its faults. I see them more as slow to action, letting evils go unpunished and unprevented while they discuss the appropriate reaction. (I made their temples boost GPP but lower military production)

Thats how the councils are now.
Could you clarify that please. I don't see any forced joining and I sure I've seen the Under council joined by good Civs (and vice versa).

It is pretty clear that you have the Empyrean and the Order confused. "While the Order wages war, the Empyrean Discusses."
Sounds like your right - in which case the order a far to tame. I've seen the event about Order and AV existing in the same cities. Where is the events about the of religions? When it's your Civs religion and you have adopted theology, where is the Out of Control Inquistion that targets other religions in your cities (which would cause unhappiness in cities that have this happen)? Conversely cities that only have Order should get bonuses.

It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?

Light shining, burning Fire, banishing Shadow and melting Ice? :D

... "Reveal the Truth"

That's more like Malakim then Empyrean. I can't give a slogan to Emp because I don't feel a solid logic in their specific abilities.

Well the Empyrean ideology is really close to eastern (like buddism), but I'm confused with this "sun worshipping" and radiant clerics, they remind me of paladins, which are Order characters. I hope the Kael will enlighten us some day, or we will think about it our way.

At least their temple should be changed to unique. It should give culture, (+) and :), because buddist temples always where places where people could find a soothing of soul and wise advices from monks about their health (believe me, my wife is a buddist from the birth ;)).

My biggest complaint about the Empyrean is that that the Overcouncil is linked to the Dies Diei, which if the founder of Empyrean is going for the Altar victory, then it will probably never be built. At least the Nox Noctius can be build by a great merchant, but I'd prefer if over/under council buildings were wonders so that a single player isn't the only one who can create them.

If the Empyrean religion is based around a concept of justice derived from 'direct consol on the merits of each individual case' rather than adherence to a code of laws, it's the Rule of Man over Rule of Law religion.

We don't even need to use our imagination for the 'darker' implications of that. Imagine a court in which Judgment is deliberately given in favour of the person the court decides is the good guy, not the person whom the labyrinthine codex of laws favours. Imagine that the good guy is defined by reference to preserving (i) wisdom and education or (ii) social equality. In case (i) you potentially have the corruption of late-Qing dynasty China, in case (ii) the arbitrariness of Mao's Cultural Revolution. So your bureaucrats - or cadres - sit around endlessly discussing abstruse philosophical matters and engaging in bureaucratic infighting instead of sending armies out against Hyborem et. al., while the toiling masses suffer under a system that's supposed to be for their benefit. Maybe you can't marry someone without a priest agreeing that your and her marriage won't create an undesirably powerful family? Maybe you can't expand the size of your fields, or change jobs, without a priest's permission? You can't rely on the contract you've signed if you have a bad reputation. What if you don't deserve that bad reputation? Tough luck?

You don't need theocratic repression, just bureaucratic pettiness and human nature, to make an Empyrean society a very nasty place to be for anyone except a priest or leader - which, I suspect, most of the FFH societies are supposed to be - but still better than many of the alternatives. After all, even the pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments is better than being bullied by insane Balseraphs, eaten by the Calabim, sacrificed by the Sheaim, or just plain torn to pieces for the entertainment of one of the other hosts of nasties.

Well you're somewhat right, theBeef1980, it looks like that they have a nasty priest society trying to give wisdom to everyone (what the hell is THIS wisdom?!), but you're not certain in your last words. Empyrean = religion, not race.

So it's easy to be "bullied by insane Balseraphs", but after "pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments", if the Balseraphs adopt the Empyrean religion. ;)

EDIT: LOL Imagine the "Radiant puppeteer holy servant of the Freakshow".

...Empyrean Balseraphs?

"My lord, these two mothers both claim custody of a single child."

"Behold, within this place of splendor
A judgement wise your lord shall render!
There's child enough for both of you,
So why not split the whelp in two?"

"Sounds fair."
"NO! Please, milord! It was all a lie! The child is hers! Don't harm it!"

"And now, my servants, you will see
How great and wise your lord can be!
This one would see the child dead,
So how could she have seen its head
Emerge from her loins? Nay, the other
Woman is the child's mother.
But tell me, friends, what sort of asp
Would leave her child in the grasp
Of such a soulless, heartless witch
As her opponent? What a witch!

And now behold the hour of truth!
I speak the fate of this dear youth:
Shall I return him to his mother,
Or leave him suckling at the other
Woman there? My answer: Nay!
Come fetch my hacksaw hence, I say!"

After all, even the pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments is better than being bullied by insane Balseraphs, eaten by the Calabim, sacrificed by the Sheaim, or just plain torn to pieces for the entertainment of one of the other hosts of nasties.

... sacrificed by AV, zombied by OO, robbed by CoE, barbarized by FoL, forced to work for dwarven olygarchy by RoK, subdued, recruited and kamikazed by Order. Even suicide leads to reincarnation and things become even worse.

That is a dark fantasy and dark fantasers. :D

We can make an exercise thread for interpretations of different religions in positive and negative sense. But I don't think that social models are elaborated enough to discuss so deeply. ;)

Awesome Perpy impression, Mew. I lol'ed.

Mew wins this thread, along with a free consultation with the psychotherapist of his choice :D

I forget which biblical character mew is lampooning into perpentachery there. Nice job though.

King Solomon it is. ;]

I kind of wonder why the rites of oghma doesnt have some kind of extended cult to it. It's just a ritual as far as i know, but there seemslike potential there for a good or at least neutral mentalism cult there? Or am I off base

Ogham would be neutral. Don't have much more than that he is the Angel of Knowledge, and his sphere is Metamagic.

World Info (link 2 in sig) has some knowledge about the religions and angels, but very little pertains to Oghma

She is the neutral Goddess of Knowledge/metamagic. She is also an enemy of Mammon the Angel of Mind, and Erebus was her heaven/vault (at least in the D&D campaign)

It seems like there's plenty of potential there for Mystra style faith there, of Oghma is so unfleshed atm.

My suggestion to make the Empyrean more appealing, as in, more members would join, and the council more meaningful.

- Anyone can join the council, once one person has the honor tech (like manhattan project)
- Everyone in the council have defensive pacts with each other
- You can vote to go to war with any non-council member. You cannot defy this resolution. (to prevent abuse, suggestion 1 must be taken together. If you want to attack, then declare peace and then hide in the protection of your council, so can your victim)
- If the overcouncil (accidentally or not) voted to go to war with a member of the undercouncil, undercouncil members can vote to declare war the very next turn, BUT... rather than on the entire overcouncil, only on the person that suggested the overcouncil resolution (you sent the police against us? We'll kill your sister).
- Undercouncil members can see all the voting going on in the overcouncil.

I'm going to misspell some names here, but:

I used to only play Capria/Order, but I've played around with a few other civs now, and I really like Malakim/Emp and Sidar/Emp.

I'm playing a game right now where my two biggest rivals are Valladia and Perpentach. There are only two other civs that are good, and they are both weak. Valladia and Perpentach are basically allies, and they declare war on Garrim. I basically give away honor to civs I have decent relationship to, and I end up stopping the Valladia/Garrim war and bring Valladia in the war against Perpentach. :goodjob:

Perp turns out to stronger than I realize and is able to beat us back. I'm not ashamed to say I'm going back a few turns. :p :lol:

btw, is there a reason why you can't build radiant guard after getting iron working? It's pretty annoying imo, especially since it's the only outdated unit I know of that you can't build.

btw, is there a reason why you can't build radiant guard after getting iron working? It's pretty annoying imo, especially since it's the only outdated unit I know of that you can't build.

There are many such units but it depends on building you have in city. If you have a training yard then warrior is obsolet and by default hide. You can find and change options in config files (I do not remember where) for each unit if it is shown in a build list when being obsolet.

I'm pretty sure that I can still build warrior with training yards, that's why I was so ticked off. :mad:

But I'll do so more digging, thanks.

If it continues to bother you, I'd suggest changing the <bNeverObsolete> tag in the CIV4UnitInfos.xml for the unit that keeps becoming unbuildable from a 0 to a 1. As the name implies, units with a 1 instead of a zero remain buildable even when you can already build all of their upgraded forms, while units with a 0 here go obsolete.

I've done that for several units that annoy me when they obsolete (Drowns, Soldiers of Kilmorph, Devouts, and some that don't usually have an upgrade anyway but which I've given one)

MC where's your modmod at? share.

I've been really busy this week, and haven't had any time to play or make the tweaks I thought would be necessary before releasing anything. Of course, I do have MLK day off and I'm not so far behind on things as I was last week, so I may try to get it ready this weekend.

Swell, looking forward to seeing it.

If it continues to bother you, I'd suggest changing the <bNeverObsolete> tag in the CIV4UnitInfos.xml for the unit that keeps becoming unbuildable from a 0 to a 1. As the name implies, units with a 1 instead of a zero remain buildable even when you can already build all of their upgraded forms, while units with a 0 here go obsolete.

I've done that for several units that annoy me when they obsolete (Drowns, Soldiers of Kilmorph, Devouts, and some that don't usually have an upgrade anyway but which I've given one)


thanks. I did a search in CIV4UnitInfos.xml for "ratha" and "radiant" and I didn't get anything. ah well, no use crying about it.

RATHA and RADIANT are there. Was it a case sensitive search?

Nope. I just checked with caps on/off, match case on/off.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?


C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2 030\Assets\XML\Units\CIV4UnitInfos.xml

That looks like the right place/

Also make sure you don't have "match whole word only" or "match beginning of word only" selected: hat you are searching for is actually UNITCLASS_RATHA, UNIT_RATHA, UNITCLASS_RADIANT_GUARD, or UNIT_RADIANT_GUARD.

I'm still not finding it.BTw I'm just opening it up with IE 6, and I haven't updated anything in awhile. Readme file says I'm currently at .30f. I wonder if I should bother uninstalling and reinstalling.

Since I've already derailed the thread, I'll ask another question: does Malakim have access to an early hero (like Gilden or Rantine)?


On topic, I have to say that I've played with Order, Empyrean, and FoL, and I have to say I like Empyrean the most, due to the overp.., err, perfectly balanced spells fighter classes like ratha and radiant guard get. Chalid is pretty sweet; I just wished my priests had access to pillar of flame. :lol:

(edit: I'm assuming they don't, based on a thread I saw. I haven't actually leveled a priest that far to find out).

Try notepad.

rofl that was it. Why did it make a difference?

edit: I just had it explained to me. I feel a bit silly haha.

IE7 seems to choke on "Tuatha Dé Danann". Radiant Guards and Ratha come after that, so they don't show up in IE.

anyone else notice that empyrean paladins can cast circle of flames

If they are upgraded from Vicars, then yes. They can cast all the spells that a Vicar could. I believe this is intended. In the Abashi civilopedia entry it mentions than Vaghan, a Paladin of the Empyrean, was using his sun magic to fight the Sheaim demons.


In my modmod, I changed the Vicar's (renamed Vicarius) spheres to sun/fire/spirit/life, gave them medic 3, and made them buildable without state religion. (I also removed Spirit from Confessors. From the Bannor pedia entry I gathered that the Priests of the Empyrean and of Sirona are compelled to serve the order in their crusades, and that the spirit spell only represented that some of the priests were non-order civs.) I also don't let Empyrean priests upgrade to Inquisitors, but they can still upgrade to Paladins and keep all their spells. I made Righteousness require Honor (and Malevolent Designs require Deception) and gave the Empyrean a second hero at honor: Vaghan of Lugus (and removed him from the great prophet names list). He is a paladin with medic 1, life/law/spirit 1, sun 2, channeling 1+2, Divine, Sorcery, Demon slaying, undead slaying, courage, and Crown of Brilliance (but not immune to disease), and looks a lot like Donal.

radiant guard are draftable for one pop each. 90 hammers for just 1 pop is very powerfull production wise. Going against the AI this is a great way to get an huge army fast.

Plus, with their Blinding Light spell you only need 1 unit to immobilize a whole stack for 3 turns. You really don't need a huge army if you have the Empyrean as your state religion. You could leave your cities unguarded until an enemy approaches, and still be safe.

...unless you were invaded by cavalry, or raiders, or Esus betrayers.

I see no reason not to cross-post this to show Empyrean themes, and the others for comparison. (as always, only what's actually in game is authoritative, but this was our thinking.)

[originally posted Aug. 31, 2007]So far, the ideas behind the religions have been left pretty wide open to interpretation, which I think was a good idea. There was some unit models, a theme, alignment and heroes with their stories. But now with events effecting and relying upon them, it would be useful to spell out our assumptions such that we all approach them in the same way.

The Order--Good/law
strength: Rebellion
weakness: Inspiration
[tab]Overall the order is easy to understand, but also easy to caricature. they are not infallible, as is their good, but they are one of the most good religions.
[tab]Law is basically a code that applies universally. The Order is certainly judgemental, but that isn't to say they judge based on taste or individual preference. Everyone is subject to the same laws and appropriate consequences, be they king or pauper. Further, they believe this applies to all people, not just the followers of their religion. Consequences fit the crime, guilty are punished, and the innocent are protected. But while they make a more or less just society, mercy and redemption are weak points of the order.
[tab]The other theme of the Order is its conflict with demons. The principle reason why the Order is rightly labeled good is because they are willing to die to protect others from demonic oppression.

The Empyrean-Good?/Sun
strength: Judgement
weakness: Crime
[tab]I assume the Empyrean will be good? There are lots of ways to approach a sun religion, but going on what we've established through Varn gosam and the Malakim, and wanting a contrast with the Order:
[tab] "As every dawn is a new beginning for the world, so to can dawn break in even the darkest heart" The Sun rises every day, bringing a new dawn and a new oppurtunity. In the same way, the Empyrean prize redemtion and reconcilliation. People are given a new chance, even evil-doers. They are not infinitely patient, but error in the opposite direction of the Order. This is extended to other civilizations by leaders following the Empyrean, but if the evil leaders fail to heed their calls to repent, the Empyrean can certainly be roused to arms for their faith.
[tab] "The sun brings light and life; do not cloak yourself in shadows, but let your own light be an illumintation." Another aspect of this religion is its opposition to shadows, darkness, and hidden things. All of their society is open; people try to live by example. This can lead to a certain self-righteousness, and certainly to gossip, etc., but deception is almost unheard of, and even tact may be rare.
[The Empyrean] seek redemption where the Order seeks retribution. They argue laws while the Order enforces laws. The two can be pontent allies, with the Order serving as the arm of the more cerebral Emperyean, but they have a very different outlook on how best to approach evil. The aspect of creation that the Emperyean exemplifies is revelation, that perfect unalterable truth. The quest for these leads to a lot of very high level discussions on most matters and a tendancy to seek the perfect answer when none may exist.

Runes of Kilmorph-Neutral/good/Earth
strength: Economy
weakness: Deal
[tab]This is presented as a good religion, albeit one that tolerates neutrality, and also as one that promotes wealth in game. Possibly a contradiction? Not really, here's how it might work:
[tab]The runes of Kilmorph is a personal guideline, resulting from the stories of the first dwarves, mainly emphasizing personal responsibity. Followers are exhorted to do their best in their craft, deal honestly with everyone, and to repay their debts. This is especially applied to family and close kin, and results in tight communal loyalty. Followers of RoK are usually quite industrious and seldom cheat their customers. Since this results in a prosperous economy, some followers mistake the benefits of the creed for its goals, and greed is not an unfamiliar vice.
[tab]But they may not be so quick to help a stranger in need, especially one from another culture, nation, or religion, and unlike the order or the Empyrean, they would seldom be roused to arms in defense of a foreign land--unless those foreigners had done them a favor in the past.
Your description for Runes is pretty good. But don't forget that they are also the most traditional of our religions. Bambur exists from the creation of the dwarves and in many cases this tradition is as limiting as it is unifying. Kilmorph exemplifies excellence, but not from raw talent. It is an excellence gained over years of practice and redundancy.

Fellowship of Leaves-Neutral/Nature
strength: Inspiration
weakness: Economy
[tab]Nature is directly responsible for sustaining life, so it is easy to see it as good. In FfH2, FoL is defined as neutral, meaning it doesn't change the civ's alignment. So its tenets are either ambiguous, contradictory, or do not pertain to how to treat other sentient beings.
[tab]Perhaps this is due to a disorganized structure. Followers of the FoL do not rely upon revelation from Sucellus or Cernunos [sp?], rather upon reflections on the natural world around them. All followers share a respect and delight in natural places, and seek to spread the sphere of life's vitality; there is little concern, officially, for any particular lives, however.
[tab]FoL'ers will fight for their own lands, and crusade to end wide-scale corruption of nature, but rarely intervene in any conflict otherwise, or at least rarely sanction such intervention by the tenets of their creed. Personal ethics of the Fellowship vary dramaticaly, from emulting the care of a mother hen, to the ferocity and guile of a rabid hyena.
On the Fellowship, this is a religion pervaded with personal discovery and growth. There are no strict laws and this leads to widley varying interpetations. Remmber that Cernnous is the weakest of the gods, the only one who wasn't made by the One so he is the most likely to be overwhelmed by his task. As you mentioned peaceful Elohim tenders to magnificant gardens and Brutal calabim hunters (where the prey are slaves allowed to run for their chance at freedom) both believe they are serving the rites of the Fellowship. The aspect of creation that the fellowship exemplifies is change, which is why there are so many variations (and why they are in opposition to Mulcarn who exempifies stasis). The change of the fellowship is best labeled as growth, the change of a child into a man, or a river cutting a pass through mountains. Radical, unpredictable change is the province of Bhall.

The Octopus Overlords-neutral-evil/water
strength: Prophecy
weakness: Judgement
[tab]These guys seem worse to me than the Council of Esus; perhaps they should move the adopter one notch towards evil, and the CoE have their current alignment scheme of allowing neutrals to stay as is? Either way, they are fairly well established.
[tab]Each word of the name can well describe one aspect of the religion. Octopus is a creature more alien to man (and elves, etc.) than certainly any mammal, and even the lizardmen and others. They are incomprehensible, and thus maddening. Completely alien, and so uncaring of humans fate. Overlords shows the view this religion has of itself. Its leaders serve the Deep Monsters, and their goal is subjugation of the world.
[tab]Their domain is stolen from its rightful steward, or at least subverted. So the overlords are both reckless and insecure in their powers, and thus rarely subtle; they never use a breeze when a typhoon would do.

The Council of Esus-evil(/neutral?)/shadow
strength: Crime
weakness: Prophecy
[tab]"Shadow" is a good means, but how about an end? The followers of this religion are those who value secrecy above all else, for whatever reason. Some persue taboos, whatever that may be in their culture. Some have some sort of psycological insecurity; most are seeking to use the power and techniques of the religion to subvert seccular authority above them. So I would expect most nations would take a very dim view of others with this religion or anyone spreading it to their lands... though not necessarily more than the other evils, I guess.
[tab]Personally, adherants to this religion detest judgement of anysort. They wish to hide who they are and what they do, and resent anyone telling them what to do. Of course, this isn't to say that they don't scrutinize each other. The other factor is a lack of trust. The god of trust is fallen, so even the Order or Empyrean share a certain suspicion of outsiders, but the Council wears deception like a coat, and knowing how they are putting one over on each other tends to make them entirely without trust even of each other.

The Ashen Veil--evil/entropy
strength: deal
weakness: Rebellion
[tab] Their goals are obvious and the evil undeniable, but what motivates them? I see 3 tiers. The initiate seeks power, more quickly than through the council, and of course with fewer restrictions than any good religion. Later, they have gotten their power, taken their revenge or whatever, but it is quickly coming time to pay the piper, and lest they be taken by the demons they bargained with, they need to find others to fill the ranks. Finally, the very upper echelon serve the same cause as their god--corrupting the world. So that when judgement day comes, Agares and his servants can point to the huge numbers of the fallen and say, "see, temporance was flawed; my mistakes were not my fault!" So they seek to justify themselves by damning the rest of creation.
[tab] Needless to say, they aren't very nice to be around, feeling no remorse for any sort of cruelty or coercion; but this isn't to say that they can't work together towards their goals, even civily. Most do not persue cruelty for its own sake Though it would certainly not offend them if their peers were, they don't by and large indulge in it for it's own sake as the OO might.

Nice summary. I agree completely.

I actually tried to add the empyrean turning neutral to good and the council turning neutral to evil but failed.

Now that I think of it, it does seem like making OO do this might be better. It would also give formerly Neutral OO civs able to upgrade their drowns/Stygian guards to Eidola. If I can figure out how to change alignments in python, I'll make the alignment changes you suggested.

[originally posted Aug. 31, 2007]
Where is it posted? It should be somewhere in Lore, maybe as a start of religon thread.

By the looks of it, it was originally posted in the Team only Forum, and before .3 was released (judging by the not yet knowing that Empyrean would be Neutral/Good like RoK)

well let me say that Chalid is no Sphener if you're not malakim.

Why is the Empyrean hero nasty.

That sun 3 spell he has. I did not need any siege weapons or fireballs in my last game. I just walked up popped the spell and attacked, they all fell within two turns. Getting the Host of El(something I can't remember right now) summon as well I was able to keep attacking turn after turn with a growing army. The sun 3 spell does massive damage and if your lucky repeats every turn freeing up the hero for another summon. I took almost the entire game with this guy Basium and one or two angels/Empyrean unique chariots. I'm not sure if he is alone in this but he can also attack and cast in the same turn with a power of I think 10.

Playing as Malakim the Khazad declared war on me and dropped a stack of units outside one of my cities. I had just finished killing off the Vampires in the opposite direction and my army wasn't close to able to respond. Thankfully I was Empyrean and I had two units nearby with blinding light. Eventually I got an adept to the city with charm person.

Those three units kept the killer stack completely incapacitated. By the time I assembled some units I decided to just bypass their stack altogether and assault the Runes holy city. It wasn't a quick siege, but one of my old warriors (now upgraded to swordsman) had all sorts of promotions and he did all the work. I took the city.

Eventually I built some Vicars and used their ring of fire spell to weaken the huge stack (that has just been sitting still outside my city for 30 turns or so) and cut down the stack enough that I was able to pick it apart. It never even got the chance to attack. :)

Empyrean :goodjob:

and the stack was in yr territory too? The maintainace must have been crippling them too :D

Ah, didn't think of that. Better yet. :goodjob:

Thats more a testament to the lack of general magic resistance in ffh.

Also, Chalid looks worse than Stephanos in terms of his model!

New sphener forever.

Speaking of which, what ever happened to the magic resistance trait?

It is still there, but no leader has it. I think that adaptive trait civs might be able to chose it though.

I think that lots of magic resistance spells will be added in with force or metamagic mana, if they ever add them in.

I'm going to misspell some names here, but:

I used to only play Capria/Order, but I've played around with a few other civs now, and I really like Malakim/Emp and Sidar/Emp.

I'm playing a game right now where my two biggest rivals are Valladia and Perpentach. There are only two other civs that are good, and they are both weak. Valladia and Perpentach are basically allies, and they declare war on Garrim. I basically give away honor to civs I have decent relationship to, and I end up stopping the Valladia/Garrim war and bring Valladia in the war against Perpentach. :goodjob:

Perp turns out to stronger than I realize and is able to beat us back. I'm not ashamed to say I'm going back a few turns. :p :lol:

btw, is there a reason why you can't build radiant guard after getting iron working? It's pretty annoying imo, especially since it's the only outdated unit I know of that you can't build.

Soldiers of Kilmorph obsolete too. This is really annoying, because they are nice to keep around and build for the protable production (50% efficient) that they provide. They are like mini engineers, but with enough of them you can rush build a lot of things.