Frankly if you're not at war with Balseraphs, Law 1 is pretty fail. Even then...
I'd rather it added -10% city maintenance or something.

That's my vote. What do YOU think is the least useful spell in FFH?

Err... What about Balseraphs? Law 1 is loyality, unit dies instead of converting. Right?

Converting are possible by
1. Defeated by unit with Command promotion: Inquisitors, armageddon horsemen...
2. Domination spell.
3. Dragon's roar.
4. Maybe unit marked with enemy religion can betray?

And there are ways to become barbarian:
5. Enraged.
6. Spell Chaos III.

I do not know if Loyality works against 5,6 but ist may be useful when Avatar of Wrath enters the Erebus. Not very nice to have an army of strong barb units in the middle of your empire.

Still I did not meet situation when this spell was evidently useful. :)

Edit: BTW if you have Barbarian trait you can protect barbs against Magnadine and For the Horde with this spell. :)

Loyalty should, (at least it has in the past) cause your enraged units to die. I don't know if it has any effect on units spawning slaves when they are defeated (with Slavery civ or by a taskmaster). If it does, it would be handy against the Balseraphs.

I'd actually like to see some way to prevent your units’ souls for going to the infernals/mecurians, weather with this spell or another. It might not make a good deal of sense for Law I, (and I’m sure some would feel that it was too powerful for a T1 spell) but it would make me far more likely to use it. :)

Dimensional, Enchantment, Mind, Spirit & Body Summoning are all useless.

Dimensional Sorcery 2, also useless.


As for actual spells: I kinda find water walking to be pretty pointless. Standard units just do not have enough move for the open sea. But on a map with small breaks between landmasses, it wouldn't be so horrible. So that one is just due to my Fractal maps typical layouts. If this could be cast on other units it might be a bit better. Same with Stoneskin...

As for actual spells: I kinda find water walking to be pretty pointless. Standard units just do not have enough move for the open sea.

Once I posted this idea and Kael replied that WW is good for mage to attack with some destructive spells from the safe water tile. For example with Tsunami. There are no assasins on the sea. I can get that reason but it is too specific - I did never use such trick. And assuming that you are in the sea (not in the lake) near enemy city you still need a good protection against enemy ships. And if you have protection that mean usually that you have even a transport.

Water walking OO priests worked out great for me. Of course, they start with the spell, which helps.

Aye, as anti-assassin it is great, but that only really works for cities that are NEARLY coastal, but not quite (otherwise they have a Navy, and you have no defense at all, so no need for an assassin's marksman... unless you brought along a Conjurer somehow to keep a Djinn on you... but the conjurer can't waterwalk...). So I guess that is somewhat only a situational ability fo when you happen to have a lake near someone's city. I can see the argument, but I agree with you that it doesn't quite hold up in actual practice sadly.

Now, if you couldn't cast spells normally while on a boat... then it'd be pretty nice so you could sit on a transport with some destroyers protecting you and rain down fiery justice... but as it is any mage can do that one. :(

Back on the weak spell subject, I've personally NEVER used Rage, Defile, Ressurection or Revelation. The last only because it is new really though, I imagine it isn't too great though since you can use a Hawk to find invis units. I think I remember hearing that it can also reveal the nationality of HN units though.... if that is the case it is pretty awesome.

Err... What about Balseraphs? Law 1 is loyality, unit dies instead of converting. Right?

Converting are possible by
1. Defeated by unit with Command promotion: Inquisitors, armageddon horsemen...
2. Domination spell.
3. Dragon's roar.
4. Maybe unit marked with enemy religion can betray?

And there are ways to become barbarian:
5. Enraged.
6. Spell Chaos III.

I do not know if Loyality works against 5,6 but ist may be useful when Avatar of Wrath enters the Erebus. Not very nice to have an army of strong barb units in the middle of your empire.

Still I did not meet situation when this spell was evidently useful. :)

Edit: BTW if you have Barbarian trait you can protect barbs against Magnadine and For the Horde with this spell. :)

1: if the enemy has Inquisitors then your 3 str adept with law 1 isnt a big help in either case. Besides, he can only have 3 inquis.

2: same goes for your Mind 3 and Chaos 3 examples. Dragon's roar is hardly worth mentioning, how many dragons arein the game.. 3? and only ever one at a time.

I'm not saying it's NEVER useful, I said least. It's only good in a very few situations and then it doesnt help you in a nice general way to move forward, it just prevents falling back in those few situations.

100% agreed about water walking and stoneskin being caster-only severely limiting their appeal. As in, I never bother.

1: if the enemy has Inquisitors then your 3 str adept with law 1 isnt a big help in either case. Besides, he can only have 3 inquis.

Loyality is casted to all units in stack :p so you need only one adept with law I to be sure that no one your unit ever betray you. And in my last game I gained with Domination Wilboman and two grigori heroes (in addition to many other enemy units). I know that AI can not use Domination. :) But if it was able to use Law I, I had more problems.

And Avatar of Wrath is really a problem anyways, no?

As I see it, the problem here is trying to force fit spells into the magic system within the constraints of what is actually possible in the game. Given the limited set of attributes to be manipulated, it's really impressive that so many spells have been formulated. It's not surprising that some are losers. There are just too many types of Mana for three good spells at each level.

If I were to attempt an overhaul, I'd get rid of Summoning altogether and spread a few more summoning spells into the Sorcery and Divine categories. I'd pare down the varieties of Mana, dropping Sun, Shadow, Dimensional, Enchantment, and Entropy while again cherry picking the good spells for the remaining types. Then I'd see about attaching spell casting abilities to objects.

Get ruins of kilmorph, throw on loyalty on your units, and then cast burning blood. instant relaible blitzkrieg force

I don't think stoneskin is caster only. It's is quite nice, from my recollection.

Get ruins of kilmorph, throw on loyalty on your units, and then cast burning blood. instant relaible blitzkrieg forceThat sounds nasty, but they should still die if they would have gone barb, right?

1: if the enemy has Inquisitors then your 3 str adept with law 1 isnt a big help in either case. Besides, he can only have 3 inquis. eh? It isn't to kill the Inqy, but to keep your units from joining them. So the 3 str is irrelevant, it is the odd 12 str unit that loses that you want to keep from enemy hands.

But here is another case where I wouldn't mind seeing another small bonus added. Such as half WW when a loyalty unit dies, or something similar.

But here is another case where I wouldn't mind seeing another small bonus added. Such as half WW when a loyalty unit dies, or something similar.

Ooo, I really like that idea.

With the new crime mechanic in Shadow, perhaps having a law spell that reduces crime would be nice. It would work along the same lines as inspiration and hope. Perhaps -10 crime and +1 happy.

I don't think stoneskin is caster only. It's is quite nice, from my recollection.
Not since .25. It used to be far too powerful (it was my favourite spell), but now it's near-useless as a Tier 3 spell (still useful, but feels more like a Tier 2 spell).

Here's my quick re-hash of the usefulness of the Tier 1 spells, 0 being completely useless and 10 being wicked-awesome (note this reflects my playing style as well as objectivity):

9 Haste (would be a 10 if not for micromanagement)
4 Dance of Blades
4 Raise Skeleton
1 Escape (not 0 only because of Amurite assassins)
1 Wall of Stone (more like a 0.5)
8 Enchanted Blade (would be higher if not for micromanagement)
1 Wither
0 Scorch
0 Loyalty
7 Sanctify
8 Charm Person
6 Treetop Defence
5 Courage
10 Spring

EDIT: Oops, realized I was talking about Blaze, he was talking about Scorch, the sun spell.

Scorch can be nice, actually.

I had a huge continent stuffed full of jungle and started right smack in the middle of it, playing the Amurites. Needless to say, engulfing the continent in giant forest (jungle?) fire REALLY saved me an enormous amount of time clearing it out. It turned jungle-choked no-man's land into prime real estate.

Here's my quick re-hash of the usefulness of the Tier 1 spells, 0 being completely useless and 10 being wicked-awesome (note this reflects my playing style as well as objectivity):

9 Haste (would be a 10 if not for micromanagement)
4 Dance of Blades
4 Raise Skeleton
1 Escape (not 0 only because of Amurite assassins)
1 Wall of Stone (more like a 0.5)
8 Enchanted Blade (would be higher if not for micromanagement)
1 Wither
0 Scorch
0 Loyalty
7 Sanctify
8 Charm Person
6 Treetop Defence
5 Courage
10 Spring

Wow. Goes to show how different playing styles influence spell usefulness! Personally, I'd rate them as follows:

7 Haste (Useful, to be sure, but never game-changing.)
2 Dance of Blades (Eh, if I need the difference this makes, I've already lost.)
9 Raise Skeleton (Free permanent units from adepts? Yes please!)
8 Escape (Never lose a spellcaster again, more or less. Also stops sneak attacks in their tracks, when two dozen conjurers pop up in the capital.)
0 Wall of Stone (Culture kills it.)
7 Enchanted Blade (See Dance of Blades, but permanency makes it worthwile.)
0 Wither (I'd rather kill them.)
0 Scorch (I think that went to Sun? I'm not into sand lions, so this goes unused.)
6 New Fire I spell (Massive micro-free deforestation, yes please.)
5 Loyalty (If nothing else, because it makes werewolves and other enraged units usable.)
2 Sanctify (Meh. Too little impact to prevent the counter from going up once it's started.)
2 Charm Person (Handy, but only when I'm much too weak to handle whatever needs charming - I'd rather deal with the problem now, if possible.)
2 Treetop Defence (See Dance of Blades.)
7 Courage (Just plain good, and attacking dragons requires it.)
8 Spring (The only counter for deserts, of course it's useful.)
0~9 Fair Winds (If I'm using boats, it's a 9. If not, a 0.)

I forgot about sanctify. That one might be even less useful.

Haven't dealt with Hell terrain yet, have you?

I generally play Good so HT isnt a horrible burden, nay.

If it was useless it wouldnt be there. I'm referring to least useful. If the armageddon counter has to be near max to get use of of a spell, it's less useful than something like enchanted blade which was useful from the moment you built your first adept.

perhaps gives other units in tile +4% healing (nonstacking)
or gives other units +1% healing per unit (stacking)

Not since .25. It used to be far too powerful (it was my favourite spell), but now it's near-useless as a Tier 3 spell (still useful, but feels more like a Tier 2 spell).AH. I understand this was probably too powerful hitting a whole stack, but it isn't so great hitting just the caster, since it probably won't be enough to save low str casters from even equal level assassins. So I'd advocate changing it to affecting the strongest unit in the caster's stack.

how about making it affect the whole stack, but only for the next hit for each unit?

I forgot about sanctify. That one might be even less useful.

Sanctify is imperative in the late game if the Infernal are spreading hell terrain all over the map. It is the only tier I spell that is so important.

I use Sanctify to great effect on city ruins, keeping the AC down. With raging barb games, it's imperative to do so. As such, I tend to have low AC games in general, at least until the Ashen Veil is founded (if it is).

As for actual spells: I kinda find water walking to be pretty pointless. Standard units just do not have enough move for the open sea.

The advantage is not open sea but spellcasting and sieging cities from a safe position (especially if you have Drown)

On water walking, there's nothing like standing on those little inland lakes, bombarding cities with Meteors.

The spell certainly has it's uses, but it's definitely not designed for long-distance voyages.

I like attacking from forest tiles with treetop defence and dance of blades, three first strikes gives you a nice edge over fortification bonuses

how about making it affect the whole stack, but only for the next hit for each unit?

only units with earth 3 can keep it?

Sanctify is imperative in the late game if the Infernal are spreading hell terrain all over the map. It is the only tier I spell that is so important.

In the past I've found sanctify to be virtually useless because of the extreme micromanagement necessary. When I cleared hell terrain, I would still get more hell terrain expanding from the old growth squares that I sanctified last turn. So basically, unless I built dozens of adepts and stationed them everywhere in my territory (literally everywhere, so that every square could be sanctified every turn), it was a losing battle - hell terrain would continue to spread deeper regardless of what I sanctified.

Did this change in .30?

I've usually found sanctify relatively useless because hell won't spread in Good lands, and because the AI will never use it in rival territory. I changed it so that Defile raises the plot counter (so an evil civ can purposefully bring hell into good lands), and so that Good civs will sanctify everywhere.

Sanctify is not so much important for removing hell terrain from your terrain but more for cleaning the conquered lands and as I actually never play good, but neutral this is veeeery important.

On the other hands, if you start invading the hell infected lands and the AC Counter is that high than we are late in the game and you are already on a winning spree. Certainly your two Final Crush All Armies are already gathered and on their way to ... well crush all. Therefore the cleaning is more an optical effect, but has no significant importance anymore.

In general the importance of spell differs as per which civ you are playing.

As Amurites you will rank Charm very, very, very high. (as in general you rank the whole Mind Sorcery Line veery very very high)

I've usually found sanctify relatively useless because hell won't spread in Good lands, and because the AI will never use it in rival territory. I changed it so that Defile raises the plot counter (so an evil civ can purposefully bring hell into good lands), and so that Good civs will sanctify everywhere.

Hmm, that sounds like a pretty neat alternative. You mind pming me the steps on how to do that?

I don't feel like PMing. I'll just put it out here.

Add this to C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\FfH2 030 MagisterMod\Assets\python\entrypoints\CvSpellInter face.py, and put spellDefile(pCaster) in the <PyResult> tag of the defile spell

def spellDefile(caster):
pPlot = caster.plot()
pPlot.changePlotCounter(6)

This adds 6 to the counter, but you can choose a different value if you want. The value is out of 100, and 10 or more makes the tile hell (I'm thinking 6 may be a little high. When I wrote it I though that 20 was still the threshold to make the land hell)

To make good AIs able to sanctify, just change the last conditional to this (I only included this part of the code because made other changes too, but they wouldn't make any sense unless you added a certain spell and terrain improvement that only exist in my modmod) Only the Blue part is different.

if (pPlayer.isHuman() == False and caster.getOwner() != pPlot.getOwner() and pPlayer.getAlignment() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('ALIGNMENT_GOOD')):

me want magistermod 2