(and why is evil so powerful in FFH in general?)

Please think back a moment to things you have read on this board. What is it you always hear about when people discuss strategy?

You never hear "rush Orders from Heaven" or "Next get Empyrean"

No, the buzz is always Ashen Veil, Octopus Overlords, Sacrifice the Weak.


Why? Why, based purely on the buzz, are the Good not appealing?

Because Sacrifice the Weak and Slavery are such powerful civics, I suppose

It fits with the fantasy setting really - Evil is more powerful but teamwork pulls the good guys through ;)

Of course, slavery is no longer a religion specific civic; anyone who isn't Good can use it. I really don't hear that much "buzz" about OO anymore.

So which neutral civs have "clearly intended religions" that drive them Evil? While some civs may have certain synergies with certain religions, the only neutral civs I'd say have an "intended religion are the Ljosalfar (FoL), the Khazad (RoK) and the Lanun (OO), none of which would change their alignments.

Don't forget about the Altars of the Luonnatar. Those are forbidden to evil civs (unless they build them, then convert), and give some of the bests boni in the game.

amurites are clearly ashen veil.

Bannor are clearly Order( at least in theme)

The real thrust of this thread is my question of why Evil is given the cool toys and thus, features most prominently in strategy talks here on the boards.

amurites are clearly ashen veil.

Bannor are clearly Order( at least in theme)

The real thrust of this thread is my question of why Evil is given the cool toys and thus, features most prominently in strategy talks here on the boards.

Amurites are also potentially OO or RoK, which both help tremendously with your research.

Bannor are indeed Order, and can support enormous empires with them.

I find FoL the most fun religion in the game. I rarely play Ashen Veil, because I hate the Armaggedon. Evil civs must deal with the Armaggedon and are not protected very well against it. While evil is more powerful short term, they will inevitably be almost destroyed by their work. Good on the other hand, espescially the Order, has a great option to support large empires and prevent the Armaggedon.

Amurites are clearly Ashen Veil because...?

Really they make most sense as OO because Hemah is strongest under their control, but they aren't very closely tightly tied to any religion.

Of course the Bannor are designed for the Order, bu they are a good civ from the very start.

Hemah is just powerful either way, being an archmage before strength of will.

AV temple adds research and allows assigning another Sage. That also makes it a clear go for the Sidar too, which I find annoying for concept reasons.

That is a mechanics argument. Why thematically would they go AV? I never use sages, and do quite well with the Amurites.

That's part of why I made the thread. The mechanics often contradict the theme.

Mechanically ideal choices not agreeing with thematically ideal ones is a side effect of the team's decision to avoid patterns and repetition.

It is at times frustrating, but also part of the replayability factor that makes this mod great.

That is a mechanics argument. Why thematically would they go AV? I never use sages, and do quite well with the Amurites.

Well Amurties could thematically go veil becuase they are the best mages and it was mages who originally found the demons that the veil worships, maybe dain or valledia was one of the ones who found the demons. Atleast if the Amurites found it in the course of the game.

I don't play Amurites so i don't know which religion helps them the most, however last time i saw the xmls the Amurites preferred fellowship of leaves by a small amount...

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

For me personally it'd be fine, since if I play for RP I follow story and theme, but when I don' t care about that I always go neutral for druids, it's just what I like.

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

Of course, I'd argue that the most ideal religion for the Calabim, mechanically, *is* the Order...


But really, just because something works well mechanics-wise without meshing perfectly with the story, that doesn't mean the story or the mechanics have to change.

For example, I've found the ideal civilization for switching to Hyborem to be the Malakim - but that certainly doesn't mean the Malakim should be evil or have a diplomacy bonus with Hyborem or somesuch!

Similarly, Cardith Lorda's supercities work very well alongside the Overlords 'Tower of Complacency' wonder, but that doesn't mean the Cardith of the story should be a mean kid with a liking for mind control, or that the wonder needs be changed to work less well with his third-ring capabilities.

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

What's wrong with that? The Calabim love keeping everyone in line and ensuring every person plays his or her role (ie foodstuffs). And they'd certainly be opposed to the destruction of the world: They've got a nice racket going on, and the end of all things would just put a damper on their fun. Remember: In Erebus, "Good" just means "opposed to Evil."

Now, if the Calabim went with the Empyrean, on the other hand...

well, good doesn't just mean opposed to evil in this game. Civics like Sacrifice the Weak and abilities like Feast pretty much distinguish evil as an attribute with no regard for any life

There are so many different mechanics, there are bound to be some odd synergies. Though, I do wonder about some you mention. Just because AV allows a sage, the Amurites should favor it? Who doesn't like sages? And, who can't benefit from a priest instead? This one is more situational than civ-specific, imo.

I think the only place a strong story case could be made is the Lanun leader Hannah, who is a bit on the dark side, or at least the wild side.

As for evil mechanics being more powerful, the pendulum swings both ways. Esus and Empyrean are still under development, as is everything though. Awhile back there were polls showing AV underused. It got some fun goodies in Fire, which have recently been reduced somewhat. Enough? Maybe, that's what you all are good at determining.

On paper, I think the RoK is the least interesting/useful, but a lot of people would disagree, and that's great.

My last game was Amurites/Leaves led by Faeryl. Makes a certain amount of sense flavorwise, and worked out quite well in practice.

The Order now works fantastically for a Guilds or Theocracy-based specialist economy, as you can increase your happiness cap simply by building more military units. Sure, AV can turn out way more specialists with Sacrifice the Weak--but unless they can keep them happy with Gambling Houses, Theaters, and Law Liches--they just aren't as useful.

-- ACS

making your cities require only half food at the price of a fairly minor economic dip is leagues ahead of Protect the Meek.

don't forget, though, that STW gives a large penalty to health, and the spread of Hell destroys most food resources and all forests, so unless you've managed to destroy the Infernals and sanctify all the Hell in the world (or, at least, the part that's near you...), STW doesn't quite result in half food use.

I'm talking about the Social Order values civic. Extremely useful at keeping your happiness cap equal to your city population.

-- ACS

don't forget, though, that STW gives a large penalty to health, and the spread of Hell destroys most food resources and all forests, so unless you've managed to destroy the Infernals and sanctify all the Hell in the world (or, at least, the part that's near you...), STW doesn't quite result in half food use.

Well assume you have a health cap somewhere in the middle of the road say 12. Without STW(looking away from any other unhealthiness bonuses like forge etc though they will all be favourable for with STW..). At size 8 you then get no unhealthyness and have 8 food compared to 16 normally. At size 12 you have to pay 16 food per turn compared to the normal 24. At size 13 it is 27 vs 18. So basically you gain between 1 food per pop(up healthy cap with stw) then gain nothing per pop(but still don't pay more food per pop than normal) up the next 4 pops then precede to gain 1 food per pop -4 up til forever. At large sizes this 4 food is pretty insignificant compared to the food you gain from going with STW(16 food at size 20 assuming we are way over health cap for example). Have fun playing as kuriouates getting the OO wonder that gives no unhappiness then going for veil for stw and watch your city grow insanely big...

amurites are clearly ashen veil.



Eh. I've always seen the Amurites as pragmatists. Sure; the Veil is a logical choice for them, story-wise, given their quest for power, but it's more likely that they'd turn to whatever would benefit them the most given the situation. Remember that pedia entry where Dain and Val increase Order authority because of a looming Infernal Threat? Yeah. Like that.

Amurites have so far been my favorite Civ, but I've never taken AV with them *shrug*. I like OO for Hemah.

Still, saying allowing a sage makes them clearly the Amurite religion is silly. A sage is useful to everyone.

well, good doesn't just mean opposed to evil in this game. Civics like Sacrifice the Weak and abilities like Feast pretty much distinguish evil as an attribute with no regard for any life

Bear in mind, this is a pretty dark fantasy world. The Order has been described as similar to real-world oppressive dictatorships in some circumstances. The only difference between Agnostic Calabim and Order Calabim is that the latter tells its citizens that they're being eaten for the greater good.

Exactly, you've got to remembe that the ''evil'' or ''good'' of a religion is more to do with what side of the godswar they fought on and just because the religion is ''good'' its not necessarilly good at all. The Order is a fanatic crusading, really quite evil religion that actually fits the calabim better in a RP sense and in some places game-wise. For example, Social Order civic gives happiness for eah unit in the city, that can easilly counter the ''harsh oppresion'' unhappiness I believe you get when you let your vampires out for dinner. Also, now the only way to get StW automatically sends hyborem into the world, I'm pretty sure that not getting the food bonus from Stw makes up fine for not having your lland urn to hell.

Also, the Order or Council of Esus fit the Calabim thematically so much better then the AV.

Sabathiel is an angel of junil and the Order worships Junil... I dont know if calabim really are xoxo bff with such beings.. Can you imagine sabathiel being bff with either of the calabim leaders just because the order was their state religion? Takes a very loose interpretation of the Order to jibe there.

But remember, eventually the Order became very corrupt, and its priests ceased to listen to Sabathiel (if he would even agree to talk with them anymore). Sine he is bound by the compact, he cannot intervene in the world to point out that the evils done in his name are not his will. There were many evil acts committed by those who claimed to be priests of Junil, but were more likely followers of Esus, or of their own desires. Most Priests of the Order have no real divine powers, and eventually the Order became devoted to hunting down anyone that did. Valin Phanuel, the Order's Hero, is among the true followers of Junil whom The Order tried to have killed.

The Calabim fit quite well into this latter, fallen state of the Order.

AV temple adds research and allows assigning another Sage.

I don't see how this has any more synergy with Amurites than Clan of Embers ?

Leaves works very well for the Amurites. Not having to cut the Forests means high production, high income, and plenty of food. You get Govannonized Druids, Satyrs, and two good Heroes. Being Neutral, your diplomatic prospects are good, and Leaves spreads fast and early. The Elven promotion reduces the need for roads and benefits your recon units.

How does fol work well with Amurites? Fol sucks with any non-elves due to the fact that forests titles sucks and ancient forests titles are still worse than farms...

How does fol work well with Amurites? Fol sucks with any non-elves due to the fact that forests titles sucks and ancient forests titles are still worse than farms...

Of course, you still need Farms. But with Guardian of Nature, the health and happiness you get from the trees means you keep all the food you grow and "we love our" days happen frequently.

The Calabim fit quite well into this latter, fallen state of the Order.

Plus, I can see the Calabim as being pretty implacable enemies of the Ashen Veil. It's no fun living forever in a world overrun with demons. Demons are even bigger, scarier, and more powerful than vampires, and their culture revolves around vampires being the biggest, scariest, and most powerful people around.

So, I imagine that whenever the veil rears it's ugly head in Calabim lands, someone is there to bite its' jugular. It makes sense that they'd choose a state religion that justifies this.

Actually the original thread was the question why are the 'bad' religions better than the 'good' religions.

The point is for me that this has a particular reason. Sheaim and Amurites are very late comers and this is because they have the strongest synergies with OO (Amurites) and AV (Sheaim). So it might be that the relative 'superiority' of these Religions in opposite to Orders and Empyreans (does ANYBODY ever felt the need to adopt them ?? ) is just a balancing effect ?

Btw. A sidenote regd. Empyreans. I feel so sorry for the developers. They spent months on implementing Empyreans and nobody has ever sad, oh how great, how awesome. Esus was cheerfully welcomed. Everybody likes either FoL or OO or Orders or AV especially when they play a particular civ, but has anybody ever tried to use Empyreans as part of a strategy ??

Amurites have so far been my favorite Civ, but I've never taken AV with them *shrug*. I like OO for Hemah.


Same. Amurites are probably my favourite, above Sidar and Lanun. I can see easily how they could slip into worshipping the Ashen Veil. As you get to some of the later Magic Techs like Soul Debt, it becomes apparent how easily your civ could slip. On the other hand, one game I played with my girlfriend saw my Amurites ending up as FoL mostly. Water and Nature mana nodes plus Amurites natural spellcasting prowess.

Most of the time I don't have a state religion (Which I get the impression makes my civ weaker overall.) but my favourite is probably OO.

I just recently had the pleasure of being deemed the "evil" civ of a game. It was mostly Good and Neutral. I just happened to start on a fairly small continent with the Elohim and eventually ended up kicking them out of our little corner. Stayed neutral throughout, but of course nobody trusts the Amurites =(. The Malakim somehow managed to convince every single Civ in the world to go to War with me, which made life pretty hard.

Btw. A sidenote regd. Empyreans. I feel so sorry for the developers. They spent months on implementing Empyreans and nobody has ever sad, oh how great, how awesome. Esus was cheerfully welcomed. Everybody likes either FoL or OO or Orders or AV especially when they play a particular civ, but has anybody ever tried to use Empyreans as part of a strategy ??

Well for my part, I don't really care for Esus either o_O I like idea but feel its underpowered; most of the strengths behind it is really the Undercouncil resolutions which aren't strictly Council of Esus perks. The only real benefits of CoE atm is building Shadows (currently bugged?) which doesn't strike me as useful enough in most cases (unless facing a bunch of superpowered casters... but regular assassins may be built anyway without CoE religion AFAIK)
I like the idea of Empyrean too, but it doesn't feel very unique in execution. Mostly I use it as Malakim since Chalid and his Aurealis have sun affinity...

I hope the development team doesn't feel slighted in their efforts though. Personally I appreciate all attempts to add interesting mechanics to the mod even if they're underpowered or not quite right at first.

Yes, most all the perks are in the Council, not the religion. I think that actually adopting Esus only allows: Ability to actually spread the religion, (thus build CoE requiring units in more cities: only Shadowrider requires the state religion, the rest just require that it is present), not removed from enemy borders when declaring war, the single Esus Hero.

About the same with Empyrean, allows a few units and one hero. Can spread it and get the temples without needing to adopt the religion at all.

The CoE also removes negative religion diplo modifiers. I've switched a couple of times to it purely to keep one of the crazier crusaders (I think it was the Malakim) off my back for a while.

And Shadows (or Courtesans as I play Balseraph almost exclusively) in combination with the ability to activate Hidden Nationality whenever you like (is it Mask?) is actually quite powerful. I regularily harass "friends" all the time with my three Courtesans that also tend to be extremely high-powered after a short while :)

I think the last posts have proven my point that CoE was quite a valuable addition and found its fans. (Apart from the fact that it is always useful to found it just to build Nox Noctis ... and to get the very nice resolutions online.)

But the same cannot be said about Empyrians. Maybe we should change the Dies Diei in that way that it will work like an Apostolic Palace for FFH. Given boni to the religious buildings and prevent war between Overcouncil members.

Evil is more powerful alright, but power at the cost of sustainability. I believe it's perfectly balanced that evil civs suffer from terrain degredation as the Armageddon counter raises.

I think that Amurites are far from AV. They restrict entropy and death magic, and their powers are envied by the fallen.

Empyrean gives the great crown of brilliance. Chalid Astrakein with it is easily one of the strongest units in the game, all forms of combat counted.

I think that Amurites are far from AV. They restrict entropy and death magic, and their powers are envied by the fallen.

Indeed but is it too hard to imagine a group of pro-AV seizing power, either through coup or managing to influence the electors/senate that AV is good for Amurites, and that power hungry mages would all agree with such proposal? Certainly much easier than for example Elohim.

Indeed but is it too hard to imagine a group of pro-AV seizing power, either through coup or managing to influence the electors/senate that AV is good for Amurites, and that power hungry mages would all agree with such proposal? Certainly much easier than for example Elohim.

Not necessarily, but some of the power hungry ones could as well oppose it as it would give others more power than them.

Not necessarily, but some of the power hungry ones could as well oppose it as it would give others more power than them.

That's the beauty of this being a video game. If the Amurites adopt AV, then the pro-AV faction wins.

currently as i see it...

the order ...
-- bannor
-- calabim

for the kilmorph...
-- dwarfs
-- gnomes
-- clan

for the trees
-- elves

for the overlords
-- the boy king

for the veil
-- shieam

for esus...
-- sidar
-- dwarfs

for the light
-- elohim

these are the blatant stand outs. the other civs see a lot more flexability in choices.

I see the Lanun as Octopus Overlords or Council of Esus.

Why Order/Calabim?

calabim and the order...

1st we know that the gov'ners manor is gonna give you and extra happy.

2nd we know that every unit stationed in a city is going to give you an extra happy. this can result in some large cities

3rd flipping to good allows for public healers and more happy and healthy.

4th the units your going to be stationing in these cities to hold the happies are blood pets. if someone attacks you bloodpets have a very nice special ability. whenever a bloodpet is eaten by a unit with vamparism the vampire gains 1 point of movement and is allowed to attack again one more time. ( I have not used it recently enough to verify if it has changed , but you used to be able to do this multiple times a turn until you ran out of blood pets.) This can allow a single vampire to destroy and entire stack of hostile units in a single turn.

5th. the vampires are severely hurt when hell terrain comes through. lack of food, resources disappearing, land degrading ... all this is bad for business. every time the order is spread or gets "stronger" the AC goes down. keeping the status quo keeps the masters well fed.

i see great idea here to disallow (for Ice) for certain civs adopt certain religions (techs disabled for founding at least)

no AV allowed:
Malakim
Bannor
Mercurians
Elohim

no Empyrean allowed:
Dark Elves
Sidar (empyrean hate all hiding, shadowy)
Sheaim

No Order allowed:
Infernal,
Sheaim
Orcs

No Leaves allowed:
Infernal

No RoK allowed:
none

No OO:
Elohim
Mercurian

no Esus:
Malakim
Elohim

Hmmm I see civs-religions as this:

Order

-Bannor
-Calabim
-Mercurians

Ashen Veil

-Sheaim
-Infernal
-Clan of Embers (particularly as sheelba) (Bhaal now shares a Hell with Agares)
-Belseraphs under Keelyn

Octopus Overlords

-Lanun under Hannah
-Belseraphs under Perpentach

Runes

-Khazad
-Lurchip
-Hippus

Empyrean

-Malakim
-Elohim

Council of Esus

-Khazad
-Lanun under Falamar
-Svartalfar
-Hippus

Leaves

-Ljosalfar
-Clan of embers
-Svartalfar
-Sidar (the sidar nation is so hypocritical already, why not add another)

calabim and the order...

*snip*

Hmm. I think I'm going to try that on my next game. It makes perfect RP sense, too.

i see great idea here to disallow (for Ice) for certain civs adopt certain religions (techs disabled for founding at least)

I see no reason to disallow religions for certain civs. Just about anything can be justified from an RP standpoint, and from a mechanical standpoint bad options should simply be bad options.

no AV allowed:
Malakim
Bannor
Mercurians
Elohim

People can change. Orders become corrupted. The Bannor have seen Hell personally: Who's to say that a cult couldn't spring up claiming things were better there (obviously, they'd be a generation or so removed from people who've actually experienced Hell, but AV's a late religion)?

As for the Mercurians: They auto-purge the Ashen Veil from all their cities every turn. They lose access to a lot of state religion goodies that way.

no Empyrean allowed:
Dark Elves
Sidar (empyrean hate all hiding, shadowy)
Sheaim

Really? The Sidar? The Empyrean's about wisdom and judgement, and the Sidar have all eternity to accumulate experience. I can also see Faeryl adopting Empyrean, if only to better manipulate the Overcouncil. As for the Sheaim: If they're changing their alignment to Neutral so late in the game, I'd say it's likely they've forgotten the whole "end of the world" idea. Maybe they'll conveniently remember it later, once they get Corruption of Spirit.

No Order allowed:
Infernal,
Sheaim
Orcs

So the Sheaim are irredeemable? Tebryn couldn't decide it's better to try and cheat Hell by joining the forces of Heaven than fulfill his bargain? I can see no reason to restrict the Clan of Embers at all: There's already a mechanic for them becoming more civilized and less barbaric (breaking the barbarian truce). Order/Hyborem has the same problems as AV/Basium, except it's an even less logical decision.

No Leaves allowed:
Infernal

It's not a very mechanically sound decision. FoL Hyborem would be the most hilariously angsty combination in FfH.

No OO:
Elohim
Mercurian

Fools! Nothing can protect your sanity! The will of the Overlords is manifest!

...I mean, OO is fairly easy to justify. Just have a few key people go insane and have dreams that indicate the Overlords will further their goals. Basium's pretty unstable to begin with, and I could see a sect arising within the Elohim claiming that only the Overlords have the power to defend the world from a much greater Evil (and if anyone objects, Hemah can just dream about them being flayed alive or something).

no Esus:
Malakim
Elohim

Esus is also easy to justify. It's a lot like your run-of-the-mill mundane corruption.

i see great idea here to disallow (for Ice) for certain civs adopt certain religions (techs disabled for founding at least)

I don't think that civs should be made unable to adopt or found religions, but leaders should (or at least have stronger weightings). It is already programmed so that if a leader has a -100 weighting towards a religion that he cannot adopt it, even under human control (thats why Auric Ulvin never adopts one, even though he doesn't have the agnostic trait. Also, curently Hyborem is unable to adopt any religion but AV, and his +100 towards that makes the AI always chose it even if he was allowed to pick OO or Esus). Some of the leaders might warrant a -100 to one or two religions, but most shouldn't be restricted so much. A weighting of -99 might be good in some cases too, so the AI would pretty much never adopt but a human could.

I don't think that civs should be made unable to research any religion founding techs; I think they should not want to. They should really get rid of the blocks that prevent AI civs from researching (or even trading for) the techs that would give them disciples of religions of different alignments, but change how much they value them. A good civ should put no value on Corruption of Spirit, Deception, Necromancy, or Malevolent Designs, and should in fact not even accept them as gifts. They should consider them to have negative value, so they wouldave to be bribed into taking them. (I have always hated it when Einion Logos demands or requests Malevolent Designs.) Neutral civs should put little value on either good or evil themed techs, but still research them or accept them as gifts. Religions should also play a big part determinign the weighting for each tech, making those particularly useful/thematically appropriate for the religion be considered more valuable and those techs ideologically/thematically opposed be unwanted. Lastly, civs and leaders should have different tech preferences to match their heroes/UUs/UBs/traits/personality/theme. (They need to get rid of the code forcing certain AI civs to always research a certain tech if it is possible. Civs need more flexibility to adapt to their environment, and can often actually reach these techs faster if they start with other techs to improve research/economy. Plus, the current way makes for rather scripted and uninteresting gameplay.)

currently as i see it...

the order ...
-- bannor
-- calabim

for the kilmorph...
-- dwarfs
-- gnomes
-- clan

for the trees
-- elves

for the overlords
-- the boy king

for the veil
-- shieam

for esus...
-- sidar
-- dwarfs

for the light
-- elohim

these are the blatant stand outs. the other civs see a lot more flexability in choices.

Needs moar Hippus under Empyreans, especially Tasunke.

Horselord Rathas with commando = enemy army never gets to move.

Im actually working on developing a strat for Empyrean Hippus, I quite like the idea of horselorded Raiding Rathas......They'll never see them comming.

:devil:

Edit: Sorry Monkeyfinger didn't see the last line of your post.... LOL the Rathas got me :)

Horselord rathas... not particularly powerful, but definitely more than an annoyance on your borders.

As for the Amurites: their magical powers are the envy of all civs, good or evil. When the power that AV offers you in exchange for your soul is not that much better than the stuff in your textbooks, there isn't an incentive to turn AV. In fact I'd imagine they'd run the scholarship civic, AKA no state religion.

Scholarship doesn't require no state religion. It did briefly several patches back, but that was a typo in the xml, iirc.

I see no reason to disallow religions for certain civs. Just about anything can be justified from an RP standpoint, and from a mechanical standpoint bad options should simply be bad options.Nah, bad options should be improved. Kael doesn't want "noob traps", or options that look good but you find out later suck.
That said, every option doesn't need to be as good as every other to be viable, for instance elves with the order is sub-optimal, but not terrible. (Well, that example might be stretching, since elves do love them their leaves, but you get the point.)

edit: We raised the religion weight in Shadow, but kept it pretty light in general; as flavorful as the background is, more importantly is to have every game play different, including those odd combo ones. (But, I'm not entirely convinced the weights are working as intended, personally.)

Horselord Rathas with commando = enemy army never gets to move.
"Hey! You got your imoblilize spell in my High-mobility army!" ;)

Hannah is definately up to something. In my last 6 games, all with every civ enabled on a Huge map it has been her that has founded the Ashen Veil. The only way that could happen is if she is intent on rushing it from the very start.

As far as the Amurites go, I play them every time and always focus single mindedly on founding the Council of Esus. It's so easy to spread to your neighbors to increase relations and even those that you can't get it to won't hate you for having a different religion. Plus Gibbon is a great first advanced spellcaster and the coucil is a great way to get people ganging up on anyone stupid enough to pick a fight with you.

I noticed a number of comments about evil civs suffering as hell terrain spreads. I never have trouble with this. So long as I'm the one researching pact, I always make sure I've got spirit mana lined up and a number of adepts ready who can keep it at bay until I'm ready to wipe Hyborem off the map. He usually goes down without much of a fight and the hell terrain, while troublesome when it can hide on coastal tiles, is fairly easy to clean up afterwards.
Now the evil AI's have trouble, but that's par for the course no matter what special feature you're talking about.

How does spirit mana help? I am currently the Calabim and most of the World is encased in the nasty stuff.

The Spirit I spell (Courage) gives the Courage promotion, which allows your unit to overcome Fear. (This promotion is now also granted to units in a city with the Hope building, which is created by the Spirit II spell.) Without it, you will be unable to attack many of the stronger demons.

Awe crap, my bad. I actually meant to say life mana for sanctify. Yeah, I get them mixed up sometimes, thankfully not in game.
Didn't know hope gave courage. Thanks for the info.

Awe crap, my bad. I actually meant to say life mana for sanctify. Yeah, I get them mixed up sometimes, thankfully not in game.
Didn't know hope gave courage. Thanks for the info.

My problem with this is that Evil civs are encouraged to get Life mana, which doesn't make sense thematically.

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order.

Easily replaceable vampire paladins are hard to beat.
Unyielding order works well for people farms too.

amurites are clearly ashen veil.

Bannor are clearly Order( at least in theme)

The real thrust of this thread is my question of why Evil is given the cool toys and thus, features most prominently in strategy talks here on the boards.

And then Sabathiel says "NEVER! I'm EVIL!"
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/lampuiho/?action=view&current=Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/lampuiho/?action=view&current=Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg