Hello. I know I make a lot of threads.

This one is about units with extreme build or promote requirements, like Seraphs. I've never built one, and I'd like to. I don't think I ever will however, because they must be upgraded from a unit of level 12 experience according to the pedia.

Isnt this a bit much for an 8/2 unit? More than a bit much.

It's even more a shame because they have such a nice, M&M style model. A nice break from the bland reskins of many other units.

You forget the Seraph is upgraded from a unit with lots of promotions. 8/2 with all five combat promotions and a few other give about 16/4 which is quite formidable.

Paladins are upgraded too, and they're base 11. When was the last time you built a Seraph and the game wasnt already over anyways, if built at all?

don't they have a MASS of holy damage on top of that?

Also you get angels when units die with the experience that unit had, don't you? Hence no angel starts at Level 1? (well, few)

12 is pretty steep. The only other unit that requires 12 is vampire lords, who can feast.

The rationale is as they have said--you occasionally get angels with very high amounts of experience already, from dead heroes or the like. Use those for the Seraphs.

Though I think you have a point, and would support a reduction here. lvl 8 or 10 perhaps, (edit:) or even 6.

High priests and inquisitors. Even with taint, no disiple is ever getting level 6 passively. I'd like to get them without taint. Make them level 4.

Also you get angels when units die with the experience that unit had, don't you? Hence no angel starts at Level 1? (well, few)

In my experience, at least 50% of the Angels you receive come with 0 XP. Remember, you often get Angels for barb units which are killed and they usually have no XP.

After a while, I simply delete these 0 XP Angels as your maintenance costs will skyrocket if there are a lot of wars and/or many barbs still on the map.

You do get plenty of high XP Angels, so why keep the ones with no experience unless you want them for cannon fodder? Especially after the AC hits 100 you will get some very experienced Angels as some heroes with a lot of XP will bite the dust.

As Blakmane said, Seraphs aren't 8/2. They have a Holy strenght bonus, making them actually 11/5, and they cause collateral damage.

and they have fire 3 divine.

and they have fire 3 divine.

nuf said. That makes them worthy in itself.

I don't care how powerful they are, the real issue is actually being able to get them at all. Basium is not charismatic, so yes, angels can start at level 6 and work their way to level 10, but you're really stuck then. As mentioned before, vampires can feast their way to vampire lord (though the economic cost will be staggering), but I really have yet to successfully produce one seraph.

I can't even get my grigori adventurers to level 12. Figures. Only way I did manage to get level 12 was on an archmage, using the Amurite world spell.

Meh, I usually have my lvl 10 units by barbs only... Yeah it's hard to get lvl 12 unit fast , but if you play marathon as me or epic, you'll get a lot 10+ (I even have high-lvl spiders) units. Now it depends on the game speed...

paladins start at 11 and come with +3 holy, and they don't need to be upped from a level 12 unit.


It's just a bit extreme in the case of seraph and the like. You're not upgrading to some demigodly unit like the dragons. Too much pay for the play.

I concure for the priest and inqui !!!
maybe have those disciple spell casting unit get a slow free xp ?

But disciple spellcasters do get free exp like arcane spellcasters, unless it changed in one of the last versions (didn't pay much attention to the changelogs).

I've leveled a few units to level 12 (usually heroes), but it is pretty rare. Although I still think back fondly upon my vampiric Archmage who made into the low 20's.

But disciple spellcasters do get free exp like arcane spellcasters, unless it changed in one of the last versions (didn't pay much attention to the changelogs).

But the arcane trait does not boost them. A level 6 unit passively without arcane boost? Never gonna happen. Maybe on marathon or epic speeds these units get alot of xp, but in quick speed, you need ~100 turns to get 26xp (WITH Arcane Trait), assuming upgrades are asap and promotions are taken immediately. So, we are looking at 150 turns at quick speed (no arcane boost), and you can start building disiples and upgrading them to priests around turn 100? So about turn 350 (quickspeed!) we can expect highpriests or inquisitors? Some use that is.

Of course, the answer is to kill barbs and take easy kills with priests, but getting a 5 strength unit to level 6, while promoting life, etc is not very likely. One of those 95%+ he is gonna lose, and you are back to square one.

And all of this to get a unit that doesn't even compare with an archmage?

I've been playing for months. I've build archs, conjureres, druids, paladins, shadows, war chariots, knights, berzerkers, many heros and just about every other leet unit (and they have all been a blast)... but I've yet to bother with high priests or summoners - way too much cost (summoner tech is 2x str_of_will and high priests xp via barb is micromanagement hell) for "meh" units. The inquisitors capturing units seems cool, but how many units besides fodder will a str8 unit kill? Only FoL or Order High Priests heal (start with life)... the others do what?

If you want healing, get it from Yvain or Sphener (tragically, you get a hero with heal LONG before access to the only high priests that heal - with both religions that do so). If you want summons, get em from Druids.

The main way to get disciple xp is through the Altars of the Luonnatar. Still, when I play the Mercurians I usually end up cheating, giving myself, say, all levels of the altar in one city at the same time. I also gave Basium (and Hyborem) more traits than most civs, including Charismatic.

High priests and inquisitors. Even with taint, no disiple is ever getting level 6 passively. I'd like to get them without taint. Make them level 4.I get high priests and inquisitors fairly often without taint, altar, or micromanaging attacks (much). Hurry to priesthood, then wait awhile before getting these techs. Build some priests, and it isn't unlikely to have a high priest and inquisitor shortly after you get their techs.

edit: on normal speed. I can't vouch for balance on other speeds. In fact, I don't say exactly that it is balanced even on normal, but you quite overstate the case.

Try it on quick (as I specified in the follow-up post), and see if I overstate. I guess I could play normal speed, just to try high priests, but that doesn't solve all of their problems. You see, their cost is rediculas, but perhaps worse is their usefullness. Why make Order or FoL high priests to heal when you can have Yvain or Sphener much sooner. No other High Priests can heal, and so I don't much see the point of them, offensively. I suppose for a builder victory they are useful without heal, if near impossible to get.

I'm starting to see a picture of Altars/Builder Victories with High Priests, but no warmongering way of reliably producing or using them. If that is how it is supposed to be, gratz. But if you would like warmongers to get a little high priest action too (given some, but not impossible effort), then something is gonna have to change.


Is it a general problem that faster speeds = less turns = less xp for casters at target tech achievement? Do you guys on marathon speed have 40xp by the time you research sorcery, or does passive xp scale to speed?

I think it does, though I'm sure it isn't perfect.

I tend to have my first adpet ready to become a mage when I get sorcery. Tend not to build any othrs till that one has developed all nodes for me. And can't say I typically go straight from KoE to Sorcery. Generally get KoE, something else while I build a mage guild and maybe Catacombs, then Elementalism (or other spheres), then sorcery or summoning, maybe with another tech in there if I get forced into war or have cash/happy problems.

Also, if you haven't done much Epic/Marathon games, toward the end of the tech tree I am often getting a tech in under 10 turns, and producing most buildings in that same tieme, and units in 1 or 2 turns. Wonders maybe 20-30 turns each. It mostly just makes the begining much longer.

I haven't played a game in the last--five?--where I haven't had high priests. You really don't even have to rush Priesthood. And I've played three different religions.

With Ritualists, taint will get you there... if somewhat slowly. And then you have Caho

With Confessors, you're a healer/siege equipment. Burn enemies down with Ring of Fire, then attack to clean them up. With a couple of Combat promotions, it's not terribly difficult. And when you're done, you have Pillar of Fire, easily one of the best spells in the game.

With Cultists, you tag along to cast Burning Blood (you did bring a Law 1 adept, didn't you?) and to mutate new crops of canon fodder. When you finally do hit your next level, you can do the kraken-->flesh golem thing.

I haven't played much with Priests of Leaves, Stonewardens, or... uh... whatever the Empyrean have. But frankly, I find them much, much easier to manage than adepts.

And if none of this works for you. Go Order and abuse Spirit Guide with your favorite priest eating a bunch of younger ones ;)

Why make Order or FoL high priests to heal when you can have Yvain or Sphener much sooner.

Because if Yvain or Sphener die, they can only be brought back once at the cost of a mana node?

They cannot be brought back at the cost of a mana node. The Resurrection spell only works to bring back national heroes, not religious heroes.

(although in .30 the code is a little off and the spell considered Chalid, the hero of the Empyrean, to still be the Malakim hero; Teutorix can't be brought back, but if someone else gets Chalid you can kill him them bring him back on your side)