What do people think about the defender trait and the Elohim civ? Are they balanced with other civs and traits? Should defender just be a special elohim bonus (and should their leaders get another trait) or should it be beefed up more?

Hmm... The Elohim aren't the only ones to get Defender, you're aware of that, aren't you ?

Yes I am.

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm discussing two separate issues (defender trait and elohim) that are related I think. I think as a general purpose trait defender could use a bit of beefing up. But if we wanted to instead limit it to the Elohim as part of the flavor of their defense oriented civ (which fits very well) then I think the defender promotion is fine but both Elohim leaders could use another trait.

The Elohim leaders actually did have 3 traits in the past if I remember right. Defender was more of a side bonus back then than a main trait, much like Ingenuity. I do miss Spiritual for them though. It was fitting and great with monks.

I think Defender is a bit weak at the moment since it provides less of a boost than aggressive and not even all the time. It might be nice if it granted +20% STR and 15-20% withdraw (that might be too much though) in cultural borders or it gave the defensive promotion out (although an elohim building does that already).

Oh yes, yes. I haven't played the Elohim recently (neither paid atention to the changelogs), so I wasn't aware it's leaders lost their third traits.

I agree that Defender is a little underpowered for a main trait, but have no idea what could be done to beef it up :|

Yea, not only is aggressive useful everywhere, it also leads to other promotions. Not to mention comparing it to Raiders which isn't even a basic promotion like Combat I but an advanced promotion that is given away free to all units.

Is that right? Commando goes to all units whereas Aggressive's Combat I just goes to Melee and Mounted? I forget. Either way, Defensive, as a stand alone trait, seeks quite weak compared to those two.

Aggressive currently only give Combat 1 to melee and mounted units, while Raiders give Commando to Melee, Mounted, Archer, Disciple, and recon, but not birds, beasts, or naval units. I personally think that Aggressive should also grant combat 1 to recon and naval units, if not to all unitcombats.


The Elohim were hurt by losing the Spiritual trait, and I don't think Defensive is really good enough to compensate them. Einion Logos was also hurt by the loss of the Education civic option category, since his philosophical trait no longer grant him free upkeep in a category that no longer exists.

I'm considering letting Philosophical grant free upkeep in the Cultural values civic option category, but what I'd really like would be for traits not to give free upkeep for categories but for specific civics (Unfortunately, that would require changing the xmls in a way that would require C++, which is beyond me). I'm thinking something like this:

LEADER TRAIT----FREE CIVIC(S):
Philosophical--- Republic/Pacifism/Liberty/Scholarship
Aggressive--- Conquest/Military State
Spiritual---Theocracy/Religion
Expansive---Agriculture/Protect the Meek
Industrious---Caste System/Apprenticeship/Guilds
Financial---Mercantilism/Foreign Trade
Organized ---Nationhood/Social Order
Charismatic --- God King
Arcane---Scholarship
Barbarian---Despotism/Consumption/Decentralization/Tribalism
Raiders---Tribalism
Ingenuity---Arete/Guilds

Although these are still free to change

I'd like to see them get Spiritual back, to be honest. Playing defensively is always a weak thing in Civ, and while the homeland promotion is nice in that it works for all units, it's strength bonus is hardly revelatory (the best part is the withdrawal).

I think they should go ahead and get spiritual back, but monk movement would also be reduced by one. (so it remains 2)

I think they should go ahead and get spiritual back, but monk movement would also be reduced by one. (so it remains 2)

I agree about bringing back the Spiritual trait for the Elohim.

The Elohim are my favorite FFH2 civ to play and imagine my surprise in my first .30 game when I got anarchy when I went to switch to my first new civic.

I don't really view Monks as a must build unit. I often don't have the resource necessary to build Priest units, so don't research Priesthood until later. I often end up going with Hunters, Axe Men, and Horsemen vs. Monks instead. Of course, if I have Incense or Gems I will research Priesthood and go with Monks.

Remember, Monks cannot get Mobility II, so three movement tiles is the most they can get.

As stated, Spiritual trait just seems to fit the Elohim.

Yea, getting spirtual back would be a good fix.

Well generally I don't like making my own edits to the game, but if it looks like they are gonna get Spirtual back in the next release anyhow... I'll just go and adjust my own game. :)

I think they originally *removed* spiritual because the elohim monkskreig was wrecking MP games. They're still pretty powerful at the moment but, it's a mistake to think they are a 'defensive' civ. Their monkskreig is still an effective strat for taking down multiple civs.

The advantage of the homeland promo is that it supplies an un-attached promo to your unit that can work in complete conjunction with other promos. That way you could have a unit with combat 5 and +10%, or horsemen with flanking 3 and the withdrawal chance.

Withdrawal is a very powerful skill if used right, but most people don't.

I agree with the op that the homeland promotion should be a bonus given to Elohim units and not an a trait of itself. I too thought that Spiritual was a nice fit.

In response to the Aggressive only affecting Melee and Mounted units while Raiders gives Commando to almost all units, I would have to agree. As a fix, I would suggest giveing commando to only Melee and Recon units whcih would balance it out nicely. Mounted units with cammando are just rediculously overpowered!

I agree with the op that the homeland promotion should be a bonus given to Elohim units and not an a trait of itself. I too thought that Spiritual was a nice fit.

In response to the Aggressive only affecting Melee and Mounted units while Raiders gives Commando to almost all units, I would have to agree. As a fix, I would suggest giveing commando to only Melee and Recon units whcih would balance it out nicely. Mounted units with cammando are just rediculously overpowered!

then we'd have to change tasunke's traits, as raider would be useless for him.

You mean people might actually play rhoanna sometimes? :P

I think they originally *removed* spiritual because the elohim monkskreig was wrecking MP games. They're still pretty powerful at the moment but, it's a mistake to think they are a 'defensive' civ. Their monkskreig is still an effective strat for taking down multiple civs.

The advantage of the homeland promo is that it supplies an un-attached promo to your unit that can work in complete conjunction with other promos. That way you could have a unit with combat 5 and +10%, or horsemen with flanking 3 and the withdrawal chance.

Withdrawal is a very powerful skill if used right, but most people don't.

Well knocking the monk down one movement point should be a decent fix for that.

then we'd have to change tasunke's traits, as raider would be useless for him.

I don't think raider would be useless for him...it just wouldn't be so overpowered. One of the benefits of raider is bonus xp for winning combat so units level up faster. It also gives 100% more gold for pillaging improvements.

Limiting the commando promotion to melee and recon units would make mixed combat an option for him, and also restore balance to the game. When invading rival territory, his melee and recon units could keep up with his horsemen. Having mounted units with 5 movement is plenty powerful enough. Giving them the ability to also get the bonus for road tiles in enemy territory is rediculous! Four or five horsemen can pillage every improvement in a neighboring city in a single turn!!!

I like rhoanna's traits since it seems to go well with mercenarys and being peaceful, but it just doesn't compare to aggressive commando units which gain experience faster get more pillage and can use roads to strike faster then the owner of the roads, you get engineering, and suddenly you have a 15 movement unit, only counter online would be to be playing khazads or elves and use forests and hills for movement without many roads.

On topic though, I like defender, it works for every unit, the withdrawal is good for swarming strong units with weak units, and I didn't know elohim lost spirtual since I haven't played in awhile, but it did seem like the perfect trait for them, although alittle overpowering with the synergy of priesthood civic/monk and philosophical.

Yeah, tasunke is over the top honestly. Hoping he gets dialed down in 31

Not to stray too much off-topic, but I was thinking wouldn't it be neat if each Civ had ONE assigned trait and the Adaptive trait? You could then have a lot of freedom playing every civ.

Yes, that one assigned trait would be a key, but at least you could have the option of choosing your second trait. And, I really like the idea of being able to change according to game time and conditions.

What do you think?

PS. Maybe this would not work for some special civs who have three traits, etc.

I personally like having only a certain few be flexible. It really makes it mean quite a bit for them, and seems rather fitting in the places currently used. Spread it out to everyone and we start to lose some of the impact of your leader choice (as it is, some civs play COMPLETELY different depending on which leader you grab).

How about tying the Defender trait to the Brotherhood of Wardens somehow? Maybe increase the chance of the BoW spawning, the chance of spawning units, or number of units spawned. Or even have BoW spawn when a city is captured intead of razed...just throwing out some ideas that would give the defender trait more flavour.

Maybe just increase the Fortify bonus for all units with Defender (in or outside cultural zone)? Alternately increase the benefit per turn up to the same cap of 25%

Maybe just increase the Fortify bonus for all units with Defender (in or outside cultural zone)? Alternately increase the benefit per turn up to the same cap of 25%

That's a good idea. A good way to do that would be to modify the Chancel of Guardians. Instead of it having only a 20% chance of bestowing Defensive, just change it so it gives Defensive to all units trained in the city. Would make Chancel worth building too, since right now it's not terribly useful.

I think it'd make more sense if the defender leader trait caused your units to get the 'defensive' promotion, and merge said promotion with 'homelands'. That is, doubling your fortify bonus, and giving you +10% withdraw.