I'm asking your opinion of whether you guys prefer going for grenadiers or riflemen first?

I think with Warlords, going for Grenadiers was a sensible choice, one tech away from musketmen, (gunpower - chemistry), but with BTS needing a couple of techs in either path it's open to debate.

Personally, I think the 50% bonus vs riflemen for grenadiers is huge when the AI likes riflemen and in my experience tends to go for them first, so I go for grenadiers. As a base 12 str unit they are still strong enough to tackle anything else out there at the time, be it musketmen, macemen, knights, elephants, curaissiers etc, and although riflemen are useful vs mounted units, I've found pikemen still to be good enough until I've got riflemen.

But I suppose in contrast is the fact that the grenadier tech, military science, is a dead end, whereas rifling, with replaceable parts before it, and printing press are all good techs to get with general benefits elsewhere for the Civ in general, and is part of a path for better things leading to industrialism.

So what are your thoughts?

Usually want to go Riflemen, usually end up going Grenadiers.

If I go that long at all that is.

-abs

Grenadiers are bundled with Cavalry now, so that's a plus. On the other side, Riflemen enable sweet techs like Printing Press, and are cheaper, right? (Please comment)

Usually I spam Rifles and Cannons, then go around beating everyone down...

Actually its rifles that are bundled with cavalry , not grenadiers (mil trad + rifling for cavs)

I always used to go for mass cavalry or upgraded maces to grenadiers in vanilla .
Now with bts however (never played warlords) i have yet to build a single grenadier , its tech is dead end and its still quite expensive to go chemistry > mil science and both of these techs offer very little compared to other techs .

I find that rifling is usually the best choice for me. If I've got tech parity, I'll go for riflemen and combine them with cannons. However, if I need to attack a tech leader who is well beyond me in tech I sometimes go for grenadiers - sometimes it's the only hope. Get those grens and cannons and hit the bugger hard before he gets infantry.

I always seem to end up with Riflemen before grens, even if I'm not planning it. I guess the techs leading to rifling are appealing. If your enemy is on par tech-wise, grenades are probably the better choice.

Grenadiers are bundled with Cavalry now, so that's a plus. On the other side, Riflemen enable sweet techs like Printing Press, and are cheaper, right? (Please comment)

Usually I spam Rifles and Cannons, then go around beating everyone down...

No, riflemen are slightly more expensive.

No comments on the use of Military Science's Great General building? Sometimes I've got a Great General just waiting around for that tech to build the (war acadamy, is it?)

In my last couple of games (Alexander God of War part 3 and Catfight) I went for grens/cannon, and it broke both games wide open. In both cases I was not the tech leader at the time, so the shorter tech path was attractive (post-gunpowder, grens/cannon are chem>milsci>steel, rifles/cannon are printingpress>rep parts>rifling>chem>steel, a huge difference in beakers: 6600 vs 10,400). Grens will beat anything until infantry, and cannons are incredible city-busters for their era (and are good until artillery, which is a long way off). The shorter tech path means quicker conquest of fully-developed cities, which quickly puts my research into overdrive, allowing me to tech to infantry faster than my opponents (which I never would have been able to do without the larger empire), upgrading all of those highly promoted grens to killer inf. The advantages seem to far outweigh going for a single "dead-end" tech (MilSci, which has other uses besides grens: Ship of the Line, Mil Academy, blitz, commando), especially given the power of cannons that it opens up via steel.

Am I missing something? :confused: (btw, I play on monarch mostly).

grenadiers would be the best choice since you need chemistry for cannons. So you tech chemistry, then Military science and finally steel. You also get the opportunity to settle great generals for bonus production with M.Science.

If you go for cannons to fight along with rifles, then you have to go 2 seperate tech paths. YOu should go for grenades first then go the rifle path. Also, its much quick to get grenades after gunpowder than rifles.

I like rifles more. They take a little longer to get to, but they slaughter obsolete units and can be drafted. On the other hand, going for grenadiers also puts you closer to cannons.

I prefer rifles. It comes from playing England a lot and getting those Redcoats out. Also it's on the path for democrazy. I often end up cottage spamming everywhere which makes emancipation and US very appealing to adapt asap. And the AI just love emancipation causing you much agony over happiness. For a warmongerer doing a more SE like build you're probably better off with chemistry for grens and then cannons.

One word, draft .

You can draft rifles but not grenadiers. You can create a big army in very few turns.

Rifles. Military Science is a dead end tech while rifling allows rifles/infantry/artillery/tanks etc.....

You can ignore grenaders, but will always need rifles.

The one exception is if you are close to a domination win, and military science is enough to get it.

Depends on the game state. If you want Cannons for attacking, Grens are the natural choice to go along with them. They're great for busting enemy units with higher strength, and their higher strength doesn't obsolete if your enemy gets Rifling - you just need to add Rifles to your own attack stacks.

Even if you're going for hard-core Drafting, Drafted Muskets+Grens+Cannon+Cuirassier is a heck of an army for the tech investment. If you need offensive power ASAP, that's the way to go. Lots of offensive punch right away.

If you can take the time, Rifling offers a more solid border and stack defense, but it'll take a while before you can get Cannon, which is what you really want for attacking. You COULD go with a vast sea of Rifles from Drafting. That occasionally works well enough with Trebs, but I usually prefer to go for the Cannon anyway. Slower to war, but stronger stack defense.

IMHO it depends strongly of what the AI will research.....

If the target AI researches Mil Trad I go for Rifles ( garrisons will be grens and CR Rifles chew defending grens )

If the target AI researches Rifling , I go Mil trad ( garrisons will be of rifles and CR grens eat defending Rifles )

Of course that it is not that simple and I prefer the techs that are in Rifles path than the ones in the Mil Trad path: PP and RP are strong eco and prod techs, Chemistry and steel not that much.... but both paths are viable and depend a lot of the game situation ( Chemistry and steel value goes up if you need to fight in the sea ,just for a quick example )

rifles all the time

grens offer nothin' against cuirassiers and pikes aren't viable anymore against shock cuirassiers either. So, you're left with nothing against the favourite unit ai loves to spam(that supposing a decent level of playing, not one where you're 10 techs ahead of the ai, since then the choice is irrelevant). Even worse, they can take out shock and pinch cuirassers right out of the stables, while you can't get formation grens or pikes unless you settled 3 gg or you're charismatic(assuming only one of theo/vassalage being ran). Also, at 14 str vs 12 str, it's no doubt rifles(and before you say grens have bonus against rifles, just be careful not to be attacked, they have the bonus only on offence).

even worse, mil. sci is a dead end, while rifles are a requirment for infantry, which is the thing you'll need for the next opponent.

For me it's pretty simple. Pre-BTS Grenadiers since my usual techpath allowed them quite a bit earlier than rifles. Post-BTS I can count the number of games I've even built a grenadier on one hand. I've never even researched Mil.Sci myself, always traded something for it. It just delays my tech priorities which at that time are: Steel for cannons, Mil.Trad for WP, Steam Power for Levee's, and Railroad for MG's and railroads.

I never use grens. Period.

I agree with Barbeerian, in pre-BTS days grenaiders were pretty important and you could get them early (1 turn after gunpowder) and start blasting muskets to bits. I think the complaint was that muskets were pretty worthless in Pre-BTS, for they got outdated too quick.

My vote would be rifles. Replaceable parts and printing press are techs that are pretty important to get so that sets up rifling to come along pretty quick. When I see rifling, I tend to research it. Rifles are 14:strength: Grens are 12:strength: that's the bottom line. A gren. may beat a rifleman, but he will loose when a rifleman attacks, and a rifleman will fare a whole lot better against an attack by calvary. The best part of a grenaider is they cost just a little less to make, this can save a few turns if you're building them in a city with low production.

The real thing to take away from this is how needed the BtS change was. Pre-BtS it was all too easy to churn out Grenadiers and defeat anything that was out there (yes, anything - the AI never understood that against Grens you need several Cavalry defenders, not to mention premptive strikes). With a service lifetime stretching all the way from the pre-Gunpowder era all the way up to Infantry, Grens sure was a no-brainer!

Now the choice is much more interesting. If you know you're behind in tech, it might pay off to go for Grenadiers, as you know most (if not all) your foes will come at you with Riflemen.

Instead of Grenadiers being possibly the game's single most overpowered unit, now it is relegated to special use, just like it should be.

Kudos to Firaxis to find a way to accomplish this with such a small and non-intrusive change! :)

Both are very good and able to do the job and which is best depends on the map. Here is what I've found.

If you need to use ships to take the game further then cannons and grenadiers (along with pikes, knights and maces) also give access to galleons, frigates, privateers and ships of the line so go for them first. Privateers can really harass another continent and suppress their research rate. Cannons are so dominant if you have exclusive use of them that the follow up troops really don't have to be anything special maces and muskets easily kill whatever is collateralled down to 50%

If you're fighting mostly on land (and won't need ships for a while) and you want to draft then rifles with cuirassiers/ cavalry and trebuchets and spies is the way to go. This has the advantage of being really good for mid game espionage (jails, citadels and Nationhood civic = 100% EP) and the Taj Mahal can kick off a GA to boost production and give free civic switches. The espionage is great for seeing exactly what troops your targets have and where they are as well as what they're researching.

By the time I've discovered (actually usually traded) Military Science, I've got Assembly Line, whereas I usually beeline Gunpowder - Rifling, so Riflemen all the way for me.

It really depends to for me, if I have a tech lead then riflemen all the way. If I don't then I often go the grenadiers route since they do such a great job attacking riflemen which as noted above the AI loves to bits. Besides, its usually not too long before I get riflemen anyways. The big downside I see to going for the grenadiers is that it usually means avoiding the top part of the tech tree, in particular, I usually don't get military tradition for some time going the grenadiers routes. Its not a problem playing as the byzantines with a whack of heavily promoted cataphracts but it can be a real pain otherwise.

Personally I find it more of a drag to fall behind with your Navy by sticking to the top side of the tech tree. I guess on Pangaea or Great Plains maps that's not a concern, but seriously who plays those maps other than to learn the ropes at Settler/Warlord levels?

uck?

leaving aside who builds a navy...

I can't remember exactly how the tech tree played the factor in my decision making, but I do remember that I went with Grenadiers for many, many turns before Riflemen because I wanted to rule the seas.:king: It seems to me that naval needs will make a difference when making the choice between the two in some games.

I think it was Gunpowder, Chemistry and Astronmy let me build Privateers, and also meant that I could build G's but not R's. The next move was to get the cannons rather than the rifles, so it was a very long run between the two units. The grenadiers were very useful, especially the CR upgrades from macemen.

Interestingly, the way the game played out, my financial trait on the waterworld map let me rake in the cash for turn after turn. Simultaneously, by the time I picked up rifling, I was a tech trade away from being able to research assembly line. I built a single rifleman and then coughed up 7,000GP to upgrade almost my entire standing military to infantry. Heh. Talk about a jump in the power graph...:trouble:

uck?

leaving aside who builds a navy...

I don't get what you're saying here... It's not common for you to build a navy? Do you just allow the AI to pillage all your fishing boats, and invade your land at any point along the coast? Or do you stick to the landlocked maps?? Personally I find the all land maps to be pretty dull... And it's kind of like nerfing the difficulty down since you can skip all naval techs, meanwhile the AI is wasting time researching them. I certainly played a few games like that when I was learning, but the naval and exploration aspect of the game is a pretty huge and important part of Civ.

because 90% of the ships get attack script, thus waste time bombarding defences down and eventually blockading for a few turns(not nearly enough to starve anything)? and the few which actually pillage can be dealt with under 5-6 ships?

plus you only need chemistry for a navy, and chemistry is next to rifles for cannons anyway. Plus it's needed for infantry

you build a couple of ships if you need to land(beside the ton of transports), a couple to defend and ok, you build workboats now and then... big deal. Cheaper then building ships anyway.

Dunno about that. I usually have to dedicate a pretty sizable stack to rule the oceans enough to land a force. 5-6 ships is just dogmeat.