Well, I could not edit the "Jaguar vs. Gallic Warriors vs. Praetorians" article to add a poll, thus I am creating a new thread.

I will put the link of this thread inside the other article.

You can choose as many options as you want.

I made some changes in my Civ, including about the Jaguar. I personnaly increased its strength to 6, cost 40, but made it -10% against cities. Perhaps I should make it just no bonus in fact. But otherwise, it's stronger than the celtic UU, promotions excluded. I'll see what it does if I run into Monty early one of these days :P

Meh. I think Jaguar is fine as it is, especially after I won a multiplayer game with a bunch of them against Sitting Bull's Dog Soldiers (although he should hoard them more...).

The fact that they need no resource allows you to chop, chop, chop them at the beginning, and use slavery as well, not needing to connect iron (hell, if there is no bronze&iron at all, then...). It's a very, very efficient unit, especially paired with Axeman.

And Woodsman III already gives a bonus from attacking (although it's nothing about the forest...). The other promotions of Woodsman allow to move through battle quickly. Jaguars make fine pillagers and containers.

Well, if we have overpowered Romans with Praets (reason why I played with them only once), why we can't have slightly overpowered Aztecs? Give them 6:strength: and 40:hammers: cost and that's it. If You fear it's imbalanced increase cost to 42-45.
And we can now dive into mass-slaughter :goodjob:

Small boost. Increase STR to 6 and cost to 40 or reduce cost to 30 or boost to withdrawal at Woodsman II and III (10% with II, 30% with both). I think of the 3 reduce cost to 30 would be best. It would encourage the Aztec player to use them w/o making them more powerful.

Fine as it is or very small boost. The ressourcelesness is good to bring atleast one early, strong unit on the field to scare away enemies even if you have no metal/horses.

I seriously don't get the point of this. N/o intended. There's plenty of pointless UU's. Either you buff a lot of UU's or just let it be as it is. I don't see why the jaguar sticks out really? But maybe I'm missing something.

I think the jaguar is pretty much fine as it is. I think giving it free Woodsman I instead of that laughable +25% jungle defense was a sufficient improvement.

I consider it a fairly weak unit, worse than the Swordsman it replaces. I don't have a problem with that though because, in addition to being resourceless, it gets a free promotion.

Personally, I dislike the Dog Soldier more... also a downgrade, with no persistent benefits. I'm aware both units have their niche benefits. I compared questionable Uniques to their parent unit in the 'Worst Unique Unit' thread in terms of promotions required to make them equal with some basic assumptions. Here the ones that aren't a strict upgrade and are easy to quantify (although not perfect since some promotions have increasing returns to scale, you can't give counter promotions twice and additional combat promotions would favour the unit with the higher base strength).

Dog Soldier -1.5
Jaguar -1
Vulture +1
Numidian Cavalry +1
Praetorian + 2.83

Incidentally, this doesn't fully translate into actual gameplay; Quechua would be at +5. They are great, but not as overpowered as that would imply.

All nice, but with Dog Soldiers You can have totem pole Archers for great versatility. Jags are jags, and any axemen unit can easily dispose them, leaving only forest/jungle running possible.

I'll repeat myself - I'd be really happy with 6:strength: Jaguars for 40-45 hammers, that way at least they would be unique, not... Peculiar... :/

Dog soldiers aren't meant to attack archers in their cities. Dog soldiers are defensive in nature. Don't like em? Try attacking the natives early on in the game but long enough for them to build dogs and super archers. You'll respect them more after that.

Keep them as they are! You are only discussing city attack and vs AI play, while on multiplayer, they are really to be feared in those woods around your capital!!!

@ noto: Yes, of all civilizations they have the biggest 'Keep off the grass' sign on their front lawn... but at what cost. An early defensive Unique Unit with diminished offensive potential, a Unique Building that buffs defensive units and turns obsolete, and Protective.
They don't build well and they don't conquer well... 'I'll suck but at least I'm safe until late Classical' isn't very comforting to me. Mali enjoys a defensive boost that doesn't diminish their offensive potential and doesn't cost a trait and a UB.
With offensive or economic bonuses, there is no such thing as overkill... in fact, the more the merrier. Excessive defensive benefits on the other hand are very hard to leverage.

They would be marginally useful for a Builder who doesn't want to bash heads before the medieval aera anyway, but there are better units for that without drawbacks.

Jaguars are OK. The addition of woodman III in BtS gives them a new life. I only wish the woodman series are given a slight boost in term of fighting in forests/jungles in terms of attack. They should get a sizeable bonus attacking those tiles, not only defending (although Woodman III gives a bit, but not enough). The bonus should be substantial enough so Woodman II should ignore the defensive bonus of forest while Woodman III should actually gain advantage attacking units in a forest/jungle tile. This will make Jags real kings of jungles.

Imagine Rambo attack a marine who totally lost direction in a jungle...... Rambo dies, because that clueless marine benefits from the jungle. This is just silly.

Oh boy.

They are not okay, okay? :D

Until macemen/phants Aztecs have no city-attacking unit. Axemen with CR can do it sometimes, but against high culture or hills You're talking about heaavy losses. Even despised Gallic Warriors with 50% withdrawal easy to get with Charismatic leader have 6 strength (they had 5 before :old:).

People are afraid that spamming strong Jaguars will be imbalanced. Make them more expensive and we're set, also in multiplayer. If that still pains multi players too much, make Jaguars available with hooked copper (or iron) - that way no superearlymegarushes anymore (personally I don't think it's necessary).

Buffing promotion can lead to abuse, where buffing single unit means that only that unit can benefit from buff, no other. Woodsman III is good, healing plus first strikes is nice.

I agree that Jaguar can be occasionally an useful unit even on Monarch. But not above, like OP stated.

How about this:

*6 Strength instead of 5
*No city attack bonus
*Keep Woodsman I as it is
*Keep No resource required
*40 shields instead of 35

This would make it a Gallic Warrior, without City attack but still requring no resource, thus making it somewhat unique.

The problem with the Jaguar is that it never should have been unlocked by Ironworking. Believe it or not, the Aztec state never learned how to work iron, or even bronze, and they still had these units called jaguar warriors...

If the Jag was like the Quechua, and the Inca had an axe or spear UU instead, we'd be golden.

Lowering the hammer cost is useless, if you make a decision to spam a unit maintenance is what concerns you most, not hammers, if anything make em free from maintenance, keep as they are right now otherwise and increase the hammer cost to the normal 40.

I see only two ways to get out of this: 1. Enhance the Woodsman ability by adding like no defensive benefits(which means also no benefits for fortification, nor forest+hill benefits) for enemies defending in a forest, diminish the attack bonus to 25%, attack bonus 25% when attacking out of a forest(or jungle), those bonuses don't work against woodsman promoted defenders. This is the first best solution, since I rarely use the woodsman promotions anyway.
Or just make it available with masonry, just like ziggurat no benefits, just early available.

You guys realize that when you make them stronger for you, that you make them stronger for the AI as well? Do you really need monty spamming 75 6str, 30% city attack, with the ability to enslave units running around? I mean dude is crazy as it is, I don't need to make it easier. Maybe we should upgrade shaka's abilities too? I don't think the crazy warmongers need stronger units at all.

hey, I made the pool with multioptions, ie people can choose more than one option, but I intended every fix to be seperate. So no one is actually suggesting a 6 strengh +30 city raider jaguar... All poll options count as seperate fixes.

They're too weak. In order to be perfectly balanced against the default unit, they ought to get the strength buffed to 6, and then require Iron and lose Woodsman promotion to compensate. That would make them very nearly the equal of Swordsmen, I think.

And just how often is Monty an actual threat to anything? He senselessly spams military, falls behind and suicides all his units time after time. Sure he's annoying, but he almost never does anything that might win him the game. Somewhat stronger jaguars would only be good.

I like the option of giving woodsman a bonus when attacking from a forested tile. It would give a lot more versatality to an otherwise nearly useless ability. How big the bonus should be and where in the woodsman chain it should be applied can be discussed. 10% at woodsman I, then further 20% at woodsman II and another 20% at woodsman III for a total of 50% maybe?

I tried voting with none of the options selected, but that didn't work.

I vote for "the Jaguar is weak, but that's fine. All UUs aren't made equal. In fact, it wouldn't be any fun if they were." which, according to the poll, means selecting nothing. But that option isn't available.

I reiterate my fix, which I think would fix the unit nearly completely. My previous suggestions were, as I found, near the mark. In order to fix the Jaguar completely, apply all my suggested changes, then increase the hammer cost to 40 (Normal speed). That should just about be perfect.

What is the problem here? Someone said the Aztecs don~t have a city attacking unit until Mace and Elephants? How doe sone figure that? You can attack with warriors and up. The Jaguar gets the +10% city attack just like Swordman. I think that IR is neccesary to keep it fair and balanced, even if it doesn~t need iron. Remember it starts with CI too. I have had fun inflicting some serious damage with them and although they are not Praetorians or Redcoats, these units are great. Play a Boreal or Rain Forest map and then come back and tell us what you think.

To those people knocking the Jags or the Native Amercian city, I publically challenge you to a PBE game and hopefully I can make you see how great they are. This challenge last until June, as I will be traveling for a few months then.

My option isn't there. It seems obvious. Give the Aztecs two unique units — a jaguar that requires iron (and has 6 attack strength) and one that doesn't require iron (with a 5 attack strength).

Do the same with camel archers. A strength of nine without horses and iron and ten with horses and iron (or something to that effect.)