Hi, I just thought about changing the subdue animal mechanic. I did a quick search for the subject, but found no posts on the topic of animal companions. My idea is to make subdued animals into animal companion promotions (or equipment if that works better). It should still be possible to construct a cage in a town, but the hunter would have to go to the corresponding town and exchange the companion for the building.

I think this would both be more fun (I think specific effects from specific animals and perhaps at certain lvl allow two or more companions, examples of effect could be +1 str +1 vision for a wolf companion and + 3 str + collateral damage for an elephant and of course some nasty poision theme with a spider) and perhaps also a bit more believable (even in a fantasy setting) than the continuous stream of autonomous servants that is currently possible.

Anyways, just my 2 cents... Keep up the good work on this superlative mod!

- Sandro

Not a bad idea. In games where I spend a lot of time hunting and acquiring animals, the associated maintenance costs can easily cripple my research rate if I don't make cages ASAP. I like the idea of turning them into promotions that the recon unit could later choose to exchange for a city structure to be be built.

Pretty nifty idea :) And of course having the companion would "turn off" your subdue animals ability so you cannot get another one until you drop off the other in a cage (or kill/release it).

I like this too. I have often thought that adding animal companions to recon units would be a nice addition. Care would have to be taken to make the addition flavorful, and not too overpowered. Each recon unit should be limited to one animal companion only.

Actually, this idea was brought up a while ago, but in terms of beastmaster promos. I like the idea of a set of mutually exclusive recon "animal companion" promos, which IMO should include hawks etc. Just give the unit a +2 sight bonus and maybe ignore terrain sight obstructions. I would keep the see invis ability to unbonded hawks etc.

I'm not so sure it should be mutually exclusive. Experienced Beastmasters should be able to handle more animals at a time than a mere hunter could. Perhaps the number could be tied to level or tier?

I'm not sure I like turning units into promotions, since you lose all of the animal's levels/xp/promotions in the process and won't get them back when you separate units.


What I'd like better (but don't necessarily think is possible) would be 1. for animals to go barbarian whenever not still on the same tile as a unit with the subdue animal promotion and 2. for animals to defend when their tamer is attacked/attack like first strike chances whenever their tamer would be engaged in combat (on attack or defense). The same could go for beasts (excluding the dragons and summons), but would be much more potent.

I think its a good idea. Especially if you could convert the animal handelers cargo hold to its promotion number. Then you could give it promotions like the fleets expanded hull to support more animal capture promotions. It would be a bit of work to implement though, but not as hard as most ideas I've seen so far. If you made animals able to load\unload to the beastmaster you could also tag all unloaded animals with enraged or create a unique bad promotion to go barb 20%(?) of the time. You could then make the beastmaster quite strong, attack with animal support upgrades, then send the animals out to attack on their own, but each time you send them out they run the risk of returning to the wild.
Bah, I'm a bit onto my own page now, OP's idea is very good.

Yeah ths is a great idea actually. I think it would be cool if they got rid of the animals in the hunter - beastmaster etcs units (the wolf and panther and stuff) and when you capture an animal it becomes part of the unit in graphics terms. (hopefully this makes sense lol)

Also, I think this should be possible with the giant monkey guys, but with a much more powerful effect and also with the sea lizard thing and the turtle. It would be sooo cool if they could get it to look like the beastmaster wasa riding it. For the more powerful animals a higher tier recon is needed and give more powerful effects. These animals can still be captured though but have 0 attack and 0 upkeep cost. While not being used an animal could be kept in a city as a ''cage'' building but the building can be exchanged for a companion unit. #

Also, I disagree with not including archeron. Now when hes captured you cant move him anymore AFAIK. But with what I'm suggesting, you can effectively combine two units to make a completely new unit. Should work with the other dragons too - these would be *powerful* units.

This would also give the recon line much more appeal.

Yeah ths is a great idea actually. I think it would be cool if they got rid of the animals in the hunter - beastmaster etcs units (the wolf and panther and stuff) and when you capture an animal it becomes part of the unit in graphics terms. (hopefully this makes sense lol)

Also, I think this should be possible with the giant monkey guys, but with a much more powerful effect and also with the sea lizard thing and the turtle. It would be sooo cool if they could get it to look like the beastmaster wasa riding it. For the more powerful animals a higher tier recon is needed and give more powerful effects. These animals can still be captured though but have 0 attack and 0 upkeep cost. While not being used an animal could be kept in a city as a ''cage'' building but the building can be exchanged for a companion unit. #

Also, I disagree with not including archeron. Now when hes captured you cant move him anymore AFAIK. But with what I'm suggesting, you can effectively combine two units to make a completely new unit. Should work with the other dragons too - these would be *powerful* units.

This would also give the recon line much more appeal.

Capturing animals requires Subdue Animal. Capturing beasts requires Subdue Beast. Are you suggesting that there be another promotion, Subdue Dragon, that requires the first two? That would make recon units very effective, on the rare chance that they are able to capture a dragon.

AFAIK you can capture dragons with subdue beast. They're beast units. What I'm suggesting is that animals and beasts are split into 4 tiers.

T1 - Wolf, lion, hawk
T2 - Bear, tiger, gorrilla, spider
T3 - Sea turtle, sea serpent, elephant
T4 - Giant monkeys and dragons.

This was an idea I had based on the OP.

Hunters with subdue animal could capture T1 animals to useas a companion. They can only have 1 companion, the companion hopefully appears as part of the unit graphics (a hunter with a lion companion would have a lion padding along beside him) Each companion would provide some added bonus to the recon unit it is with. For eg hawk adds 2 LOS.

Rangers with capture animal would be able to capture tier 2 animals as well as tier 3 animals (T2 ones would have to be made more common then they are right now). T2 animals would provide better bonuses then T1 animals.

Beastmasters would be able to use T1,2 and 3 animals. The sea beast units would be captured by a beastmaster attacking from a ship. Elephants would now require capture beast.

T4 animals would be able to be captured by beastmasters with the new promotion, ''Subdue Ledgends''. These units (bmstr with T4) would be seriously powerful. What would be really cool is if the Art team could make a unit of a beastmaster riding the dragons to be used when a bmstr captures one.

From the unit graphics, it would appear that Hunters and Rangers ought to have animal companions. It would be fun if they did not have them to start with and had to acquire them -- one slot for the Hunter and two for the Ranger.

I like the idea of tying it to the cargo space, since that allows a natural limit, and even ties in nicely with Kil.7 & Magister's ideas about Tiers of promotions.

Subdue Animals = +1 Cargo Space
Subdue Beasts = +1 additional Cargo Space

Scout = 0 Default Cargo
Ranger = 1 Default Cargo
Beastmaster = 2 Default Cargo

Hrm, seems I am not very familiar with the recon line, so I can't think of what all the upgrades are :p Anyway, Assassins would probably need to lose the ability to bring along beasts, but not sure how you could do that easily since the promotions would provide some cargo space even if their default is 0. But anyway... make it so you have to have Subdue beasts + Top Tier Recon to get Cargo space of 4.

Then, with beasts split into Tiers like Kol.7 listed, make each tier require that many cargo slots. So all Tier 1 promotions include -1 to cargo space, Tier 2 are -2, up to Tier 4 is -4 cargo space.

That way, at max level you could have someone running around with a Wolf, Lion & Spider (probably spider should be tier 2?), or if you were lucky enough, instead just riding on the back of Acheron :)

From the unit graphics, it would appear that Hunters and Rangers ought to have animal companions. It would be fun if they did not have them to start with and had to acquire them -- one slot for the Hunter and two for the Ranger.

Yeah thats basically what I was saying except explained better lol.

Also, i like xienwolf's idea about x tier animal has x required cargo space too. Re: spiders, yeah I thought I'd missed one, I'll add it in. Are there any more beast units that recons could capture?

For assassins, maybe they could still have hawks/spiders. Although, when one is paired up with the spider, the spider effectively changes into a promo (would not be seen with the unit) that adds +2 poison damage. Maybe that could be the spider's effect anyway?

I don't like the idea of having multiple animals per recon unit (exept maybe the beast master). I like the idea of having unique benefits from each animal type and having rangers that are specialized based on what type of animal companion they choose.

Here are some ideas:

Hawk: +1 visibility range
Wolf: +1 movement, +20% withdrawl
Lion: +1 defense strength, immune to first strikes
Tiger: +1 attack strength, +1 first strike
Bear: +2 strength
Elephant: +20% collateral damage
Ape: ???

Ape: +1 mobility

How about if Subduing an animal automatically gave a Companion promotion of the subdued animal instead of producing an animal unit?

These companion promotions could then give the recon unit certain benefits(as previously suggested) and the ability to create the various cages/dens when in cities and/or release the animal as a seperate unit when outside cities(using these abilities would make the recon unit loose the companion promotion).

Each recon unit(except Assassins/Shadows) should only be able to have 1 promotion pr tier it is (Scout 1, Hunter 2, Ranger 3 and Beastmaster 4) and only from animals of same or lower tier. Any further/invalid Subdued animals would simply be create as a seperate unit (as it functions now).

My suggestions for the benefits from the promotions are as follows:
Wolf(tier1): +10 attack strength and Double movement in Snow and Tundra
Lion(tier1): +20 attack strength and Double movement in Desert and Plains
Tiger(tier2): +30 attack strength in Forest/Jungle, +1 First Strike
Gorilla(tier2): +30 defense strength and Double movement in Forest/Jungle
Bear(tier3): +1 strength, no penalty from attacking across rivers
Spider(tier3): +1 Poison Damage, Immune to First Strikes
Elephant(tier4): +2 defense strength, +20% Colateral damage

yeah, that was essentially what we were saying. For the effects, you have to consider what the animal is doing to give you that effect. So unless you're physically riding the animal, no x2 movement bonuses. Not sure if a *live* animal could give you increased defense strength either.

yeah, that was essentially what we were saying. For the effects, you have to consider what the animal is doing to give you that effect. So unless you're physically riding the animal, no x2 movement bonuses. Not sure if a *live* animal could give you increased defense strength either.
Well, I see the Double movement and attack/defense benefits as being more a result from using/learning the animals familiarity with finding it's way through it's native terrain/feature than riding the animal or anything like that.

yeah, that was essentially what we were saying. For the effects, you have to consider what the animal is doing to give you that effect. So unless you're physically riding the animal, no x2 movement bonuses. Not sure if a *live* animal could give you increased defense strength either.

As to movement, the animal could be scouting the path ahead so as to find the fastest route. And in battle, it could fight beside you, taking some of the damage and making you harder to hit. (Though I suppose you *could* use a dead animal as a shield. :sad: )

Just wanted to add, i really like these ideas.

I agree firmly with the high teir captures take extra cargo space idea. You would have to give high teir captures abilities to compensate for that though, if a teir one gives +10%str a teir 2 would have to give at least 25% and a 4 would have to give 60% or more as a baseline. You could make hawks the only teir one, that way you must have the subdue animal promotion for any caputred animals. Hawk +1 Visibility would be then the smallest advantage and there would be plenty of room for a baseline of +20% or equivilent for teir 2, +Str like +1Poisin for teir 3 spiders, and masssive gains for mythical beasts (Whom I would think would be beter than heros if you could caputre them)
I dont think Elephent should be on 4 though, simply becasue it doesent compare to the Dragon or the giant Ape, letting it be the high end 3 would be suffitent.

Kind of convinenet how the graphics ideas are made possible in BTS by the promotins can change graphics implementation.

Just wanted to add my €2.

I really like the idea with the special recon promotions. It would make the Subdue Animal a much more viable early option.

Ideas for additions:

Maybe the abilities for each animal should be rethought a bit to match how the recon unit will "use" the animal.
Some/all animals have the "Join city"/"Build [special building]" ability. Maybe this could be extended to "Join Recon"/"Merge Recon" ability.
When the recon unit is promoted, one should have the option to set the animal loose/free again.
The animal could be "killed" if the recon unit takes more than 50%/75% damage (as a flavour).

If animals can be used this way, there should definitely be more animals in the game and animals should appear later during the game. I normally run out of animals around turn 100 or before.

How about if Subduing an animal automatically gave a Companion promotion of the subdued animal instead of producing an animal unit?

These companion promotions could then give the recon unit certain benefits(as previously suggested) and the ability to create the various cages/dens when in cities and/or release the animal as a seperate unit when outside cities(using these abilities would make the recon unit loose the companion promotion).

Each recon unit(except Assassins/Shadows) should only be able to have 1 promotion pr tier it is (Scout 1, Hunter 2, Ranger 3 and Beastmaster 4) and only from animals of same or lower tier. Any further/invalid Subdued animals would simply be create as a seperate unit (as it functions now).

My suggestions for the benefits from the promotions are as follows:
Wolf(tier1): +10 attack strength and Double movement in Snow and Tundra
Lion(tier1): +20 attack strength and Double movement in Desert and Plains
Tiger(tier2): +30 attack strength in Forest/Jungle, +1 First Strike
Gorilla(tier2): +30 defense strength and Double movement in Forest/Jungle
Bear(tier3): +1 strength, no penalty from attacking across rivers
Spider(tier3): +1 Poison Damage, Immune to First Strikes
Elephant(tier4): +2 defense strength, +20% Colateral damage