So, how long has it been since I've posted here? Bah... I got Beyond the Sword a while back. My girlfriend is still playing this game... every... damn... day. In Warlords, the Hall of Fame is filled with her victories (on Noble difficulty), yet she still claims she's no better than I am. Just as I was starting to win in vanilla civ, Warlords ruined my method, and now Beyond the Sword has the biggest cheat'n pile of dogshit AI I've ever seen in a game. So.. when are the guides and manuals going to be updated. Maybe you should title it "Civ IV for Retarded People" then I might actually understand and learn something.

So what's your problem? Is the AI defeating you militarily? Are you getting out-teched? Do all the AI's hate you?

Most of the guides are still valid for BTS. Some of the details might be wrong, but the overall concepts still work.

So, how long has it been since I've posted here? Bah... I got Beyond the Sword a while back. My girlfriend is still playing this game... every... damn... day. In Warlords, the Hall of Fame is filled with her victories (on Noble difficulty), yet she still claims she's no better than I am. Just as I was starting to win in vanilla civ, Warlords ruined my method, and now Beyond the Sword has the biggest cheat'n pile of dogshit AI I've ever seen in a game. So.. when are the guides and manuals going to be updated. Maybe you should title it "Civ IV for Retarded People" then I might actually understand and learn something.


Beyond the sword really tightened up the AI. It actually gets fewer 'cheat' type production, science, and unit bonuses then it did in vanilla, but knows more 'experienced player' type tricks. It'll attack in greater numbers with combined arms, manage sea-borne invasions better, whip out defenders, etc, etc..

Several of the people who post regularly on this very forum actually contributed to the AI improvements, and you <i>know</i> they're good players, so what do you expect :)

i would ask your gilrlfreind to help you reorganize your civ and when a battle is about to happen you can make spaghetti and do the dishes while she takes over generalship.

*sigh* I'm too annoyed to even think about it. I think I've wasted enough of my time on this game. Goodbye.

Hard game is hard :(

Giving up never is the solution, play togheter with your girlfriend, exchange tactics and ideas, you'll get better real quick :)

so you give up, and your civ is lost to the mists of time. You are single handedly responsible for the deaths of your citizens. booooo

Finally, the update we've all been waiting for! :woohoo:

However, the surprise result is that Nevordan is still utterly useless at civ. :wow:

And this despite his Herculean determination, not to mention his unshakeable optimism!

Did you ever post a savegame, btw? I promise we won't point and laugh. And there's no better way to get to the root of your problems.

The civ-related ones, anyway... ;)

I did post some saves. I don't remember the result but obviously it didn't help. It feels like the learning curve is actually a vertical line and I'm covered in grease. Can't get off the bottom, can't see over the top.

Okay, so I played another few games and saw what the real problem is.

The AI is syphilis. They can all . .. .. .. . out a settler in about 5 turns and expand and expand and expand, yet they never have any financial trouble and have no problem keeping up in tech. Go to war with one of them, even very early, and you will never get rid of them. I have since started calling the AI... AIDS... Just two more letters and you have the real name.

This is the main problem, plain and simple. The built-in free money and tech and cheap-ass upgrades the AI gets needs to be REMOVED. The game needs to be made fair, straight across the board. Why should the AI(DS) be smarter than a human, AND get free . .. .. .. .? . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

The built-in free money and tech and cheap-ass upgrades the AI gets needs to be REMOVED. The game needs to be made fair, straight across the board. Why should the AI(DS) be smarter than a human, AND get free . .. .. .. .? . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..What difficulty level are you playing on, again? Cuz if it's Noble or lower, the AI has no advantages over a human start. (No, seriously, you can go into the code and check for yourself. There are plenty of threads about this already. Just do a search for "cheating AI" on the boards.)

Okay, so I played another few games and saw what the real problem is.

My girlfriend is still playing this game... every... damn... day. In Warlords, the Hall of Fame is filled with her victories (on Noble difficulty), yet she still claims she's no better than I am.

Just as I was starting to win in vanilla civ, Warlords ruined my method, and now Beyond the Sword has the biggest cheat'n pile of dogshit AI I've ever seen in a game.

My feeling is your problem is not the cheating AI (Which is not the case on and below Noble anyway). It's you just dont really like the game. You dont want to play it for fun, you just wan't to win because your Girlfriend does...

So instead of trying to get some insight into the mechanics/strategy of the game you are looking for a "coocking recipe" for a instant win... Unfortunately this is not how it works...

I'm still reading your other threads (I've started at the 16 pages long thread now) but I can't see if you did go for easier difficulties or if you stayed at Noble.

I've played Civ since Civ 1 on the Amiga and I've usually played at chieftain difficulty. I thought it was fun playing that level, so why change? Chieftain was the easiest back then, btw. I did the same on Civ 2 and 3. But now I moved onto Warlord. And it was difficult, as you have to micromanage a little bit to be able to win. I was as frustrated as you, since I mostly ended up in a corner hitting space for 1000 years. But then I discovered a nice thread about someone who was in the same situation: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253486 and now I'm starting to win with "ease".

There are a few tricks, but I won't post them, as they are posted already on this forum. But I'll tell you this: The most important thing IMHO is that you play the game, and don't let it play for you. Micromanage, choose expensive techs just to get something you want, even go for a persecution of an opponent. Micromanagement might sound boring, but it is fun when you have your first, few cities. They are also the most important to get right. After you have a solid micromanaged base, you can let the next cities you capture go on auto. That way you can go from city level to empire level management.

My feeling is your problem is not the cheating AI (Which is not the case on and below Noble anyway). It's you just dont really like the game. You dont want to play it for fun, you just wan't to win because your Girlfriend does...


The AI can rapid-expand 12 cities when I'm still at 40% research with 6, despite shitloads of worked floodplain cottages... I don't believe it. Even if what you say is true only in referrence to built-in free gold/research/production-per turn, then it at least has cheap or free unit upgrades.

And I'm sorry to say you're wrong. No, I don't like the game (but I do, really, I'm just mad at myself because I AM TOO STUPID TO PLAY IT WELL)... because it's like playing an on-line game with a bunch of insufferable pricks. That's what all of the AI are. Insufferable Pricks. Who cheat. I try to play it for fun, but I'm tired of losing every game. My girlfriend wins the Space Race and Cultural Victories, which I don't really care for. Though at this point, I would even take a Cultural Victory. Sure, no war? I'm sure it would be easier to just kiss all those insufferable pricks' asses and go peaceful the entire game. I'd rather kill them. All of them.

*sigh* I'm going to go play the game... again. Each day I forget about how mad I am at Civ IV and myself, and how much I truly suck at it. Then I am quickly reminded. I'll save the game and post it here. But I don't think there's any hope for me. Maybe I really am incapable of being as good at it as the rest of you. Maybe I'm retarded.

Okay, if you really do want to get better, here's something to try:

*Start a new game on your usual settings with your favourite leader. Be prepared to explain both choices.

*Regenerate until you get a start you like the look of. Be prepared to explain why you chose that start.

*Take each turn slowly - really think about what you're doing, even with regards to very minor choices. Try to remember (or write down) some of the dilemmas you faced, and the reasons for the decisions you made.

*Play for twenty turns. Save.

*Play for another forty turns. Save.

*Play for another forty turns. Save.

*Report back to us with the saves (a couple of screenshots would be helpful too) and an explanation of what you did and, crucially, why you did it.

*In your report, focus on your own choices and NOT the behaviour of the AI. You can mention the AI's actions, of course, but only to the extent that these were relevant to the decisions you made.

*You should also include a summary of what you think your next moves would be, and of any longer-term plans you've started to develop.

Assuming that the root of your problems is evident in your early-game choices (which seems likely if you're getting out-teched and out-expanded on Noble), we can then suggest some remedies and help you to overcome whatever is currently holding you back.

One more thing.... As amusing as I find your posts, you really shouldn't swear so much. This isn't an adults-only site, and some people take offence to that kind of language here (inc. the mods - be warned!). ;)

I would recommend that you read Snaaty (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435) "guide" for BTS...it has a good concept of capping your Capital early by building defenders and then rexing with settler rush and sufficient workers to bring you up to par with AI. Claim a part of the map with 7-8cities, tech toward an advance military tech...Lower difficulty try maceman cats/trebs rush higher level rifleman. Pick your weakest neighbour that’s just begging to be conquer and assimilate/vassalage his population.

You need to be patient it’s not a all type map strategy, but some tips are good for most map type...

If you have a crappy start don’t be afraid to regenerate the map, pick a strong leader Lizy with redcoats + unique building makes it’s a good civ to get use to the game mechanics, once you feel comfortable with the game you can try your luck with other civs. IMOP consider Liz like your training wheels of your first bike but for civ:D .

Try noble, save every ten turn if you made a big game breaking error example attacking the vassal of the strongest civ (yeah this happen to me this weekend did not check the diplo screen :blush: ).

Try to remember that food=production, settle near food resources first and WORK them early; research the tech if necessary AH, Fishing etc. You can REX toward happy resource latter. Rex toward your neighbour and cut him off your backland/ressources. Look at Canada 85% of its pop is on Can/US border but still have lots of back lands (well mostly frozen ) claims on resources in the northern parts Sask, wheat, Alberta`s Oil, Ontario mineral, NWT diamond/furs, forest and wild games don’t forget NB lobster mmmm ;).

Plan you cities improvement, you migth want to check out the Empire Management section in the war Academy I learned a lot abouth game mechanics from these articles, Specialised your city early, establish production centers. Remember that every tile need 2 food/1pop to be worked, every 2 surplus food can count toward working a mine workshop; etc. Grasland cottage are self suficiant :) When looking at a city screen I do a -food count exemple: plain hill - 2food, balance by 2 grassland farm pre biology. Try not to wast worker turns. Try to anticipate your pop caps vs workable terrain tiles with avalable ressources for happy and health caps.

If you lucky Iron or Copper will pop within your border. If not Archer are you best bet. Learned to use the wip, slavery can give you great early production advantages, bassic Idea is use slavery when in only a turn, your city pop will grow at the cost of 1 pop; Granaries are god given tools for slavery specialy in Highfood low production cities.

Plan ahead, make friend early….trade wisely and maintain a decent army and you should not be backstabs…you on the other hand can backstab your friends later hehehehe. But most importantly, have fun !

one thing that helped me back when I was getting owned on noble, I took some time to actually learn about the game mechanics. example. I used to just be like, alright I want the most hammers, the most commerce(which I used to think was gold) and the most food. When I took the time to learn such things as, 2 food = 1 pop, hammer overflow, proper build orders (no more building a barracks first, no wonder I sucked) city specialization and also that sliders don't matter that much, its all about commerce. these are just examples. Once I learned the mechanics better, I began to experiment with expansion and military. Now you say you have so many cities that your at 40% research. stop expanding for a bit (or take it down to 20% :) ) and focus on infastructure. Once those cottages start to bloom into towns, you will find yourself in the tech lead much faster than you think. Also (this might be just me) I hardly ever raze a city unless its super crappy.

as one of the more experienced posters here has in their sig (sorry i forget who)

Land is Power

and that 20% research means nothing when you have 3 former jungle cities booming with 12+ towns each.

one last tidbit, on a certain game I played as vikings is when i truly learned, i dropped myself down to 30% research expansion, but I got so many cottages up that my economy skyrocketed just in time for a massive berserker/treb/knight invasion. by the 1700s I was 6 or 7 techs ahead, and my lead just kept growing. and all this info I learned came from this website (thanks civfanatics!)

@Winston Hughes*Take each turn slowly - really think about what you're doing, even with regards to very minor choices. Try to remember (or write down) some of the dilemmas you faced, and the reasons for the decisions you made.

*Play for twenty turns. Save.

*Play for another forty turns. Save.

*Play for another forty turns. Save.


Great Idea!

The AI can rapid-expand 12 cities when I'm still at 40% research with 6, despite shitloads of worked floodplain cottages... I don't believe it. Even if what you say is true only in referrence to built-in free gold/research/production-per turn, then it at least has cheap or free unit upgrades.

And I'm sorry to say you're wrong. No, I don't like the game (but I do, really, I'm just mad at myself because I AM TOO STUPID TO PLAY IT WELL)... because it's like playing an on-line game with a bunch of insufferable pricks. That's what all of the AI are. Insufferable Pricks. Who cheat. I try to play it for fun, but I'm tired of losing every game. My girlfriend wins the Space Race and Cultural Victories, which I don't really care for. Though at this point, I would even take a Cultural Victory. Sure, no war? I'm sure it would be easier to just kiss all those insufferable pricks' asses and go peaceful the entire game. I'd rather kill them. All of them.

*sigh* I'm going to go play the game... again. Each day I forget about how mad I am at Civ IV and myself, and how much I truly suck at it. Then I am quickly reminded. I'll save the game and post it here. But I don't think there's any hope for me. Maybe I really am incapable of being as good at it as the rest of you. Maybe I'm retarded.

You sound pretty upset about all this, I don't think civilization should be something that can undermine someone's happiness.

This won't sound very helpful, but I doubt that even being good at civ 4 will make you very happy.

And remember, its ok to bump a few of your girlfriends HoF scores down the list. But leave her the top spot, its for your own good :P

You sound pretty upset about all this, I don't think civilization should be something that can undermine someone's happiness.

This won't sound very helpful, but I doubt that even being good at civ 4 will make you very happy.

That's probably true. Maybe I should just down a bottle of sleeping pills. Life is never going to be worth living.

May I suggest you try the following at Noble level.

Play Roman as Augustus.

Settle on spot. In capital, build a worker -> warrior -> stonehedge -> great wall -> warrior -> settler -> pyramids -> warrior -> settler -> (switch to police state) -> preatorians.

1st settlement should have some resources and fresh water (but no big deal if not) and should be built near an AI, build worker -> barracks -> worker -> preatorians.

2nd settlement should have iron unless you already have it in other cities, build barracks -> worker -> preatorians.

Research order = bronze working -> mysticism -> mining -> masonry -> ironworking -> pottery -> writing -> polytheism -> priesthood -> code of laws -> alphebet (slip in some resouce techs inbetween depending on what you have).

Give all preatorians city raider I promotions, when you have around 10 (and maybe a couple of axeman, march them to the nearest AI (hopefully not protective ), get all its cities except the last one (you should capture its capital though). The 1st captured city goes barracks -> preatorians, the other captured cities get courthouses first.

Auto all workers (except when you get your iron city, at that stage, hook up iron fast), auto all worked city tiles, auto citizens. When AI has 1 city remaining, sue for peace and take any techs that AI has to offer. Switch to representation. After 10 turns, declare war again and finish him off.

By then, you should have around 7-9 cities, each with courthouses and library. Your research % should be very low but no problem. Build some workers (auto them), trade for currency tech if you do not have it. If no one is willing to trade you currency, switch your capital to build Research and research it yourself. Spam markets. Spam more workers till you have around 10+. If you are in dire financial trouble, disband some of your army (esp the initial warriors you have at the beginning).

Settle all great people in capital unless you (1) use him to found a shrine (2) save him to rush a wonder (3) set up an academy in capital. Try to get the Great Library in capital.

Research feudalism, make some longbows and put them at your border city. Then get Education and build universities (Oxford at capital). Beeline liberalism. Get Nationalism as free tech. Try to build Taj Mahal for golden age, then research towards rifles. Once you have rifles, switch research to 0%, use the money to upgrade your preatorians to rifles, draft some more rifles, make more rifles and go for the next AI (which should only have macemen and longbowmen). Capture his cities (incl. capital) until he capitulates. Then find your next victim, rinse and repeat. :D

The techs you need after you get rifles is probably drama, then constitution (both of which to mitigate ww), and then either goes for democracy if other AIs have that (which is unlikely) or beeline assembly lines + facism. I would suggest that you ignore the astronomy tech line, the railroad tech line and the scientific method tech line until after you get facism to ensure you have infantry as soon as possible. Also ignore military science and military tradition.

That should be a guaranteed success strategy for Noble level and should work on most non-island maps. There are actually a LOT of things wrong with this way oversimplified strategy but it should have no problem on Noble level. Roman UU are really overpowered. I hope you get a good win out of this and kick your gf from her number 1 spot in HoF. :lol:

There's one problem you didn't mention. When you raze a city, the AI sneaks a settler back onto the crumbled city and sets up shop again, complete with defenders.

There's one problem you didn't mention. When you raze a city, the AI sneaks a settler back onto the crumbled city and sets up shop again, complete with defenders.

Remember that you have set the ai back a few steps. He has to start over on the city, and he has to spend production and growth for a new settler. If you do that with a lot of his cities, you will set him back quite a bit. Especially if you pillage too.

While he builds settlers, you build other units.

Hard game is hard :(

And obvious troll is obvious... :mischief:

So... the idea is just to cause a setback? If that's the case, how the hell does anyone win a domination victory? It would take half the game to get rid of one of your 6 opponents... or is it 7. Gah, I forget.

Yesterday I had to start over about... 15-20 times. Every game leads to a dead end. The only thing I've discovered is that perhaps the early rush is now a dead tactic. It simply doesn't work post-vanilla civ, at least not for me. It's not... how do you say, cost-effective. It causes craploads of war weariness, drains your economy to a standstill, and may win you one city. I think it's best to wait for catapults, and build up your economy so it can take the kick to the ballicks. Just my non-expert newbie idiot opinion.

Pro tip: Play a duel sized, great plains map. Get good at zerg rushing your one opponent. Start increasing the map size and playing with more difficult maps like archipelago and continents. Or just do everyone in your life a favor, and take that bottle of bills with a nice glass of scotch.

this post is sounding more and more like trolling everyday

AI expands fast and it's hard to keep up in the beginning, what's not hard to keep up is tech. To win domination you need to out-tech the AI and use superior troops to offset the massive number of units AI makes. Sounds like you have fast enough tech rate since you are working floodplain cottages, so now you just have to focus on getting techs that all the AIs don't have, and trade it around.

some easy way to get ahead in tech:
- cottages around the capital, and run beauracracy.
- get pyramind and great library, run specialists and representation early.
- get greatwall and great spy and steal techs (while you research new techs that you can't steal).
- trade one tech to all AI for different techs.
- set up a GP farm and use the GPs to pop techs.
- play as a Financial leader.
- build Oracle, first to Liberalism.

some easy ways to get troops fast:
- draft every turn.
- whip units out of every city, 2-3 times.
- set tech slider to 0% to get gold for a few turns and mass upgrade.
- set up one or two unit factory and make nothing but units, heroic epic, west point, and hammer multipiers like forge and factory.

These are good starting points, try implementing some of them, or better yet, all of them because they can work together for the most part. Don't be discouraged if the AI has 2 or 3 times more cities than you have, once you got a leg up in tech, you can easily make those cities yours.

Hey don't lose hope! I was in a similar situation where I bought civ4 just played on Chieftain and all I could do was domination or space race. When I tried to move up levels I got crushed, I tossed this game to the side and stopped playing it. Well last year some time before BTS came out, some how I came across this group. I actually did a lot of studying and reading the different strategies. I learned all about the Orcale slingshot.

I printed out tons of stratgey tips. I made a list of build orders and tech orders that people mentioned. I tried them, some games I messed up, but I got a little better each time.

I read the ALC threads and numerous others. I now play on Noble and won a culture victory, I know people posting say that is easy. Well I had no idea how to do it before so I got great joy out of reading some threads on it and figuring it out.

In closing if you like civ keep at it, read the threads on strategies and post some saves and what you tried. Don't give up unless you don't want to invest the time. Good Luck

So... the idea is just to cause a setback? If that's the case, how the hell does anyone win a domination victory? It would take half the game to get rid of one of your 6 opponents... or is it 7. Gah, I forget.

Yesterday I had to start over about... 15-20 times. Every game leads to a dead end. The only thing I've discovered is that perhaps the early rush is now a dead tactic. It simply doesn't work post-vanilla civ, at least not for me. It's not... how do you say, cost-effective. It causes craploads of war weariness, drains your economy to a standstill, and may win you one city. I think it's best to wait for catapults, and build up your economy so it can take the kick to the ballicks. Just my non-expert newbie idiot opinion.

domination is the "hardest" victory condition, in the sense that you need to balance warfare and economy.

The early rush is cost effective if :
- the enemy capital is close by and stuffed with resources (happens often)
- you have production capacity.

I would suggest postponing the rush strats for a while. Come back to it later, when you know how to handle the economy thing...

Exercice : you play 1 given map type, and try to get the most beakers at 1AD, with a mimimum number of cities requirement. Let's say 4.
Try different leaders, different strats, get the feel for it.

I agree. I usually fail if I go blindly for any of the aggressive victories.

I found out that it's best just battle for resources and space for my cities in the beginning. Short wars for just one or two cities. Then, when the economy is in place, and I have a good up-to-date army, I let my wars last a bit longer.

I guess the veteran players can just decide how they will win. I'm still changing win strategies over time after how the situation changes.

Or just do everyone in your life a favor, and take that bottle of bills with a nice glass of scotch.

Wow, I am impressed. That was so incredibly helpful and mature! All the other tips pale in comparison. I bow to your infinite wisdom, although I think vodka is a better choice.
:rolleyes:
Being new here, I can only hope comments like these are not the norm. Goddess knows, I need plenty of help myself ... in and outside of the game :hide:
Anyway, I don't get the AI's rapid expansion, either. In my current game (Noble difficulty) Suleiman was going on his 13th city, while I still had four. Perhaps I'm a tad slow, but his expansion was utterly rediculous. I have no idea how the AI can expand at such a rate & still tech fairly decently. It's frustrating to say the least, especially as he had invited himself to my continent, once his was full. Jackass.

Edit: I just re-read that quote. If you're handing out bottles of bills, be sure to pass one my way. I could use a bunch of crisp bens.

Wow, I am impressed. That was so incredibly helpful and mature! Perhaps I'm a tad slow, but ...

That's probably true. Maybe I should just down a bottle of sleeping pills. Life is never going to be worth living.

The more you know!

At Noble and Prince, I used to expand considerably faster than the AI to my 6th city or so while still being an absolute wonder hog and out-teching them (after that, my rate of expansion varied a lot depending on overall strategy) so this is very possible.

Doing all 3 at once might require a little organisation or even nerdity (time it so you can improve the first tile the round a new city is founded to avoid maintenance without gain. Let your cities grow, then switch to settler production for one turn while multiple chops provide hammers. Whip a lot at low city sizes, down to the point where they're only working the tiles with massive food outputs).
You can easily do one or two of those without resorting to cheese, then leverage that.

Militarily, set yourself a goal. If you want to conquer something, make sure you don't pay a disproportionate amount in units for the gain. If you can't win a decisive victory, steal all workers an opponent has, pillage them dry and tech to a military advantage. A few gold now, no units lost, no crippling maintenance and a painless victory in the future. If you manage to do this once or twice, you should have enough land that you can out-tech the peacemongers and the type of victory is yours to choose.

It feels like the learning curve is actually a vertical line and I'm covered in grease.

Hahaha

Thank you for that good laugh

Anyway, I don't get the AI's rapid expansion, either. In my current game (Noble difficulty) Suleiman was going on his 13th city, while I still had four. Perhaps I'm a tad slow, but his expansion was utterly rediculous. I have no idea how the AI can expand at such a rate & still tech fairly decently. It's frustrating to say the least, especially as he had invited himself to my continent, once his was full. Jackass.Actually, while the AI usually founds more cities than you as a player does, they actually do tech slower. I'd suggest trying to get the hang of tech trading(which is what the AI will do to stay in the tech race while expanding in the beginning).

After a while you'll start to get a feel for what techs the AI will usually trade away and which ones you should focus on yourself(most military techs for example, not to mention the "path to liberalism").

Do the posting of savegames thing.

I would just like to point out that Nevordan's posts are always the best to read. I hate to see him suffer, but at the same time, you half want him to keep failing because the posts are hilarious. Nevordan=Chicago Cubs

Edit: I just re-read that quote. If you're handing out bottles of bills, be sure to pass one my way. I could use a bunch of crisp bens.

heh, I could probably stuff a few bills into a bottle if you'd like. hmm, let's see, that damn gas bill sure is high during these cold months...

i would ask your gilrlfreind to help you reorganize your civ and when a battle is about to happen you can make spaghetti and do the dishes while she takes over generalship.

:lol: Haha good stuff