The Illians are one of my favorite races for several reasons. I love the cold and ice, they were lead by the God of Winter and Stasis who managed to put the world into a 1000 year ice age, and they're a generally interesting enemy with a powerful leader.

My question is that what kind of power did the Illians wield in the Age of Ice, and what society did they have? I assume that they continued to live in cities since their priests had control over the cold and Mulcarn watched over them. Also what are the central beliefs of the White Hand?

My other question is less lore based and more based on the future content the Illians will receive. What are the plans for them, or is it still a secret?

I expect its still a secret. Maybe they've left the best civ till last :p

Mailbox, FFH Age of Ice has the Illians as the Amurite player's major nemesis. They did live in cities, were the major power of the world at the time, and had managed to impress the Doviello as a vassal state. Beyond that I don't really know.

As to the future, well Auric Ulvin's backstory, along with the introduction of the Letum Frigus world location and the fact that 'Ice' is going to include scenarios heavily implies that the Illians will be attempting to ressurect Mulcarn...

Personally, I just want to see a Mammoth War Elephant and a Beastmaster with Polar Bear, Arctic Wolf and Snow Leopard minions :)

edit: Further checking of AoI's civilopedia reveals that they could create Ice Golems from their Temples, and that they fought a war with the Luchuirp who attempted to stop them summoning Mulcarn (the Luchuirp were the only Good civilisation in any state to try and stop them) this war ended when Mulcarn was summoned and destroyed the Luchuirp army.

It was Barnaxus that was making th ice golems, after Mulcarn gave him life.

(Personally I think that they shouldn't have been called Luchuirp, but the Kradh-Ke-zun)

Also Auric said to the Illians: "Once you had been the greatest of scholars and priests, tributes were paid to you by all nations"

No it wasn't Mulcarn that gave barnaxus life, he met an old man in the widerness and he somehow gave him life. Mulcarn kinda captured barnaxus and told him to build golems made of ice.

It quickly became clear that Barnaxus was unlike any other golem. Barnaxus did not "take orders." He cooperated, he discussed, and he made suggestions. Barnaxus was a thinking golem, a learning golem. No one could guess how he had managed to break the magical ties that bind a golem to the two-dimensional world of "order and execution", and nobody really expected that they would ever find out. When asked, Barnaxus merely said: "A man spoke to me in the wastes and I awoke," he would say no more.

Barnaxus was being vague, Mulcarn is the one who gave him life.

"Once you had been the greatest of scholars and priests, tributes were paid to you by all nations"

This is one of my favorite quotes involving the Illians. Auric Ulvin is definitely my favorite leader.

Barnaxus was being vague, Mulcarn is the one who gave him life.

So was that before or during the Age of Ice? Am I remembering it wrong that Barnaxus existed in the Age of Magic?

Barnaxus was created near the end of the Age of Magic, and was among the golems that the Luchuip lead to fight against Mulcarn when he first entered creation (at the beginning of the Age of Ice, a couple centuries before Kyorlin joined the Amurites and began his quest for the Godslayer). They were all defeated, but Mulcarn was impressed. Non-living, non-changing, non-sentient machines fir well into his element of Stasis. He gave Life to Barnaxus (before this Barbaxus was just an ordinary non-living enchanted machine like all other golems, albeit one of the best made ones) and ordered him to create Ice Golems for him

Since Auric is possessed by the spirit of Mulcarn, what is his opinion of technological progress? Is it a necessary evil in order to regain his power or does he think something else?

Hmm...Well, most of it isn't really progress, just the regaining of lost knowledge. During the Age of Ice his people were the most technologically advanced in the world ("Once you had been the greatest of scholars and priests, tributes were paid to you by all nations...").

The fact that he is trying to regain power at all is a bit against the theme of stasis. Perhaps he thinks of these as reactionary moves required to return the world to a more stable state. Of course, can winter ever begin without something changing? He fall and his entrance into creation to begin the Age of Ice aren't very "static" either. Perhaps considering all these things to be necessary evils is the right approach.

During the Age of Ice his people were the most technologically advanced in the world ("a nation of priests and scholars, tributes were payed to you by all....").

I think that's a neat quote too. But... does he* always tell the truth?


*Whichever

That brings to mind a deeper, more philosophical quandry about Mulcarn:

If you do something to change his domain, does he attempt to put it back (long term stasis) or to maintain what you have placed there now (short term stasis)?

I'd think he does long term, since he wants to return the world to the Age of Ice state.

("Once you had been the greatest of scholars and priests, tributes were paid to you by all nations...").
I think that's a neat quote too. But... does he* always tell the truth? *Whichever

Well, the line is delivered to the ghosts of that nation, and they were the only surface nation to prosper during the Age of Ice, so yes.

Probably long term stasis, trying to bring the world into a "static equilibrium." Of course, this makes it sound like he would get along with Dagda better than most of the gods, which is ironic since Dagda made the compact and Mulcarn broke it. Of course, "Balance" in FfH probably really means "moderation" rather than equilibrium. (Hmm...how can Dagda represent pure balance? wouldn't that mean taking moderation to the extreme, which would make it not be moderation anymore?)

Probably long term stasis, trying to bring the world into a "static equilibrium." Of course, this makes it sound like he would get along with Dagda better than most of the gods, which is ironic since Dagda made the compact and Mulcarn broke it. Of course, "Balance" in FfH probably really means "moderation" rather than equilibrium. (Hmm...how can Dagda represent pure balance? wouldn't that mean taking moderation to the extreme, which would make it not be moderation anymore?)

Wasn't Mulcarn summoned into creation by the Illians rather than breaking in himself? Given all the stuff about power in proportion to worship and influence, that might actually be technically legit.

I'm pretty sure it is still a violation. And I was wrong about them having power related to their worship apparently; the ability of others to channel their power is proportional to faith, but their actual power is not. They are limited in what they can do, sort of like having their power rationed out. They are allowed to either do a lot all at once, or to perform many tiny miracles. Overall, the compact is extremely complex and not particularly logical (like most laws and treaties), but I don't think he had any real justification for this action.

but I don't think he had any real justicication for this action.For covering the world in ice? I think that requires at least an amendment to the compact, if not a total rewrite. ;)

Also, I'm like 99% sure that physically manifesting oneself in Creation constitutes a violation, no matter how widely one is worshipped. Bhall's worship was much, much greater at her height than Mulcarn's was, and yet she never tried to actually step into things.

The rule was that a god simply can't enter creation, not only is it forbidden but its not possible. The real breakthrough was made by Trenton during the Age of Magic. He discovered a ritual which would allow a god to enter creation and rushed back to his people to use it to save his people who were dying.

This was one of the D&D campaigns I won, and it went over many rl years. By the end he stood at his homeland with the ritual in hand and his people on the verge of death. But he knew that summoning Danalin would save his people but restart the godswar. After all of his traveling and friends met amoung many races (and the realization that many more would die if Danalin was summoned) he decided not to use the ritual. The Aifons were destroyed and Danalin, crushed and angered by the loss of his people, slipped into a deep sleep.

Much later that same rituals was discovered by the Illians. But they didn't share Trenton's compassion and decided to risk the godswar and summon Mulcarn into the world.

Okay, I'm confused. The compact has enough power to keep a god out unless he has help from Erebus, but not enough to stop Armageddon or various archangels? Or did they just forget to put that in? And if mulcarn needed the ritual, how did Sucellus or Bhall get in?

Something else that isn't quite making sense to me.

If the Gods couldn't enter Erebus even without the compact, then what was the point of putting the Godslayer into Creation? I mean, without this ritual thingy, none of them could enter Creation at all. Agares could say, decide to break the compact, send all of his demons into Erebus, and sit back and relax in his vault, secure in the knowledge that the sword couldn't touch him, since he hadn't entered himself.


Or am I mising something completely? :confused:

Okay, I'm confused. The compact has enough power to keep a god out unless he has help from Erebus, but not enough to stop Armageddon or various archangels? Or did they just forget to put that in? And if mulcarn needed the ritual, how did Sucellus or Bhall get in?

As I understand it, Bhall didn't enter creation. As she fell, her portfolio (fire and rapid, chaotic change) went into chaos, consuming the world in flame and sending Braduk straight to Hell with her. As for Sucellus, he was chosen among the Good gods to fight Mulcarn since Bhall was no longer opposing him, so I believe all the Good gods together were able to send him in (or else he expended his "miracle power" for one massive boon to his worshippers so the ritual could be completed).

As for the FfH proper violations: Cassiel, Basium, and Sphener all willingly surrendered their positions in heaven so that they could enter creation. Basium still has access to angelic forces because a mortal empire has expended the resources to open the Mercurian Gate and let him in. Hyborem and his army were summoned by the Ashen Veil as part of the "Infernal Pact" tech. I'm not entirely certain what exactly Armageddon represents, but it's heavily implied to be related to the actions of mortals on Erebus.

Plus who is to say that the ritual didn't have side-effects and leave a gaping hole in the protection of Erebus that had once been conferred via Compact?

Plus who is to say that the ritual didn't have side-effects and leave a gaping hole in the protection of Erebus that had once been conferred via Compact?

And remember it is a 'compact' (Agreement) not 'a dictate made by the One'. Apparently gods were discussing how it should be done. What Seventh Star says: Preventing every Angel from entering, was proposed by archangel Cassiel. On the contrary there were gods and angels like Basium that wanted even more freedom to act. So they came up with a compromise- no direct acting, but angels apparently can enter, at least with help from mortals. So that is why compact 'has no enough power to stop mere angels from entering'

Yeah I always thought that Suceullus was able to do it because all the gods agreed to it. The gods will is manifest in creation. Bhall's fall was manifest in creation, meaning that the world always reflects the decisions and actions of the gods. I see her fall as literal (she did physically fall from the sky and smash through Braduk) but not intentional.

I dont know if that breaks the compact or not. It probably did, but it was over quickly and the gods certainly didn't do anything to react to it.

Agares could break the compact and send all his demons into creation. Or he can try to convert enough people to summon the demons appropriatly. He's banking on the fact that he can get people to summon them.

But, wasn't the Godslayer supposed to be the teeth that backed up the compact? What good does it do sitting in Creation, where it can't really get to the Gods that might be breaking the compact?

The teeth of the Compact was that the Neutral Gods agreed to join forces against anyone who breaks the compact. I would envision the Godslayer Blade more as a symbol for Humanity (sign of good faith type thing) than an actual portion of the Compact. Which God would honestly believe that a mortal could even get within swordlength of him?

It *did* work on Mulcarn..........


I'm just wondering actually. Mulcarn seems kind of dumb. In his shoes, the first thing I would do once I established myself in Erebus is to make absolutely certain that God killing weapons were either destroyed or somewhere that *nobody* could get them. And why didn't Sucellus go looking for the blade? Could have come in handy.........

Isn't that what he did? Mulcarn had already found one piece of it in AoI. It was just really hard to find, and the gods were busy with each other to spend all of their time looking for it. Plus, if one had found a piece the other would probably be right there to try to steal it from him.

Mulcarn definitly isnt the most proactive of gods.

The godslayer is a manifestation of the will of the gods. The fact that it appears as a sword in creation, or humans see it as a sword, or the entire act of sticking it into the guy you want to kill is as symbolic as it is literal. It was given to men to enforce their power, the gods way of saying they agreed to limitations on their power. That mankind would be given direct control over creation, and at the begining of the Age of Magic and the Age of Rebirth humanity has that chance.

Specifics seem to imply that we are only talking about a literal view of that object or power, but thats only half of it. Maybe anyone could have reforged the sword and killed Mulcarn, maybe his death was inevitable from the moment he broke the compact and the entire episode with Kylorin was just the terms of the compact being physically reflected in creation.

I dont know. I like to think that mankind did pick itself up at that point and solve their own problem. I like Kylorin and the fact that he accomplished what a god couldn't do. So I like to think that its 50/50, some divine retribution owed and the chance for humantiy to rise up and accomplish something legendary.

Thats my take on it at least, though I dont know that it provides any of the specifics you guys are thinking about.

That......... was profound Kael.


*needs to radically re-adjust mental processes for this*

There is supposed to be a greater metaphor behind the world of Erebus. The batle between Mulcarn and Bhall is the battle between the old generation (resistant to change) and the young generation (thats wants a revolution). The body (Aeron and the Calabim) represent carnal desire vs the spirit (Sirona and the Elohim) which are about spirituality and prioritizing the needs of the soul beyond that of the body.

The end morale is that balance is key in all of these areas. FfH has never really been about right and wrong. Fanaticism is often punished in our stories and I really like odd pairing of opposite ends of the spectrum in the D&D games and in the mod itself.

The metaphor isn't perfect by any means. But when I hear about a forest that would die if not for occasional forest fires that would sweep through it I think about that in relaitionship to the philosophy of Erebus. When I think about the argument between full revelation and discretion I think about Erebus, when I think about sacrificing personal freedom (chaos) for safety (order) I think about Erebus.

I think Erebus is a land at war not between countries, angels or gods. But between ideologies. Maybe our own world is the same.

I saw that you mentioned Mulcarn was the first god to fall (I think). Why did Mulcarn fall before Agares and what did he do? Is Mulcarn's hell just a frozen wasteland?

I saw that you mentioned Mulcarn was the first god to fall (I think). Why did Mulcarn fall before Agares and what did he do? Is Mulcarn's hell just a frozen wasteland?

Agares was the first god to fall. Mulcarn is said to have the highest hell, or the 1st hell depending on how you want to look at it.

I think that means he's essentially the least evil of the evil gods. I'm guessing that the lowest hells are Agares and Bhaals shared hell and Ceridwen (rge one that wants armageddon?)

The end morale is that balance is key in all of these areas.

People tend toward hierarchies. X is more important than Y... It's the simple/easy way to think of things. But, as you say, "balance" is better. Even absent fanaticism people screw things up: Whatever X and Y are, it's almost certain that "sometimes" should be in there. Generally there are historic or practical reasons why one virtue, right, whatever was under-appreciated, used, or realized. A movement arises to fix that, and some other virtue, right, or whatever becomes under-appreciated.

And the point I wanted to get around to is:

To the above Erebus adds gods championing or making-manifest various principles. So on top of all the usual mess you get _personalities._ Egos. No wonder it's a "dark fantasy" setting. :)

Hmm... though I guess you might say that the gods can't do anything other than strive to make their own principle the Primary principle, and all others subordinate. Maybe even those balance-focused tree-huggers are too focused on a static solution. Maybe the mortals are the only ones really capable of eventually sorting things out.

OfTopic: It'd be interesting if a sufficiently extensive and precise moral vocabulary did allow a universally applicable hierarchy of virtues/principles.

Aye, most good things in life are opposed by other good things. There is never a choice between absolute security and total freedom (or any other dichotomy), and anyone offering either is trying to hoodwink you. Freedom and equality and safety, etc., are all important to have, and working to advance one value to the extreme will cost increasingly more of all other virtues, ala the law of diminshing marginal returns. People must think beyond stage one and facile solutions.

Off Topic: It'd be interesting if a sufficiently extensive and precise moral vocabulary did allow a universally applicable hierarchy of virtues/principles.Well, it can be done, but not simply or in sound bites.

I've worked out what most gods represent except the following, care to enlighten me?

Tali, Angel of Air
Nantosuelta, Angel of Faith
Danalin, Angel of Water

Agares was the first god to fall. Mulcarn is said to have the highest hell, or the 1st hell depending on how you want to look at it.

Did Mulcarn agree with Agares or did he fall for another reason?

Sort of a Necrobump but I figured it's better than making a new thread.

Now that the Illians are in the game to some extent, it would be interesting to know the lore behind the rituals. They're a representation of the Illians expending energy to regain their religious power but what exactly is powering the priests and snowfall around illian cities? Is it that Mulcarn's power is latent in Auric or the power is drawn from the cold mountain that is his empty vault?

Sort of a Necrobump but I figured it's better than making a new thread.

Now that the Illians are in the game to some extent, it would be interesting to know the lore behind the rituals. They're a representation of the Illians expending energy to regain their religious power but what exactly is powering the priests and snowfall around illian cities? Is it that Mulcarn's power is latent in Auric or the power is drawn from the cold mountain that is his empty vault?

This is non-canon, just the D&D game stuff. But the game revolved around the fact that the dominion of winter still existed even with Mulcarn dead. The power didn't go away, it was just unfocused. The spells of winter were an attempt to gather and use that power.

The difference between the D&D games and the campaign was that Tebryn was the one casting the spells of winter. Basically he figured out how to harness that power and was using it to cast large global world ending spells. This was the cause of armageddon. The last of the spells of winter, much like our final AC event was a massive spell that killed everyone of a selected race.

The party had been caught in the plots of Auric, Tuoni (the bearer of the gem of death) and Tebryn throughout the campaign. The final game of that campaign was an assault on the deadlands to stop Tebryn from casting that final spell.

They battled through the undead army with what remained of Erebus's empires and after the main assault team was lost (the party was the private guard of the king of the combined army) they were sent in to infiltrate the tower.

Calwinna of Junil faced off against her father in the deadlands. Abashi had risen and ruled the unending night sky. The battles were legendary. Inside the tower dark creatures summoned, rituals were performed and demonic visers prepared to barter for the pieces of Erebus that would be left after the ritual was performed. And there were many guardians.

But through heroism and talent, and a little help from the Umberguard, they reached the chamber where Tebryn was performing the ritual. Thats where the story got funky. Combat was always a minor aspect in my games. I planned a few throughout the game just so the players had a chance to roll dice and to break up the story, but we would often go hours without a battle. So its no surprise that the final conflict wasn't a battle it was an ethical crisis.

The just was that they discovered who Tebryn was and his dilema. That wasn't that pertinent to the characters as much as the players themselves since in the former campaign Tebryn was a player. The more pressing conflivt was between Tuoni and Auric. Tuoni wanted the players stopped, with ritual cast has was goign to collect all of the killed souls before they traveled to the underworld and create his own spiritual world to rule. Auric wanted the party to stop the spell, if all the power Tebryn had welled up wasn't released in the ritual it was enough for Auric to harness and become the new god of winter.

So the party was stuck between two evils and angry guys on all sides. Auric was an enigmatic as always, convinced from the beginning that it would all play out exactly as he wanted. Tuoni was much more aggressive.

Sort of a Necrobump but I figured it's better than making a new thread.

Now that the Illians are in the game to some extent, it would be interesting to know the lore behind the rituals. They're a representation of the Illians expending energy to regain their religious power but what exactly is powering the priests and snowfall around illian cities? Is it that Mulcarn's power is latent in Auric or the power is drawn from the cold mountain that is his empty vault?I'm not sure about the snowfall itself, but I'd figure that it's just a part of Auric/Mulcarn's power increasing. Presumably Mulcarn made his vault with his power as well, so even if the snow comes from his vault then it still comes from him in a roundabout kind of way.

The Deepening might be related to the ritual that brough Mulcarn into the world the first time. There is speculation that this ritual was based off of the one that Trenton Majosi intended to use to bring Danalin into the world. Some believe that the ritual would kill a lot of the god's followers before the god could enter creation himself, and when Trenton realized this he tried to stop the casting; unfortunately the Aifon were still killed, but Danalin wasn't called into creation. When Mulcarn entered creation using the same ritual he used the power that had been created by the deaths of the Aifons and so didn't have to kill off too many of his own followers. Therefore the Deepening might also be a recreation of that ritual, but because the power from the Aifons' death was used up in the first summoning he has to kill some of his own people this time.

But again, that last paragraph is still speculation, as there's some ambiguity about exactly how and why the Aifon died.

(This makes me want to play a Lurchrip game vs the Illians again, where Barny 'replays' Mulcarn for his gift of sentience...)

This is non-canon, just the D&D game stuff. But the game revolved around the fact that the dominion of winter still existed even with Mulcarn dead. The power didn't go away, it was just unfocused. The spells of winter were an attempt to gather and use that power.

The difference between the D&D games and the campaign was that Tebryn was the one casting the spells of winter. Basically he figured out how to harness that power and was using it to cast large global world ending spells. This was the cause of armageddon. The last of the spells of winter, much like our final AC event was a massive spell that killed everyone of a selected race.

The party had been caught in the plots of Auric, Tuoni (the bearer of the gem of death) and Tebryn throughout the campaign. The final game of that campaign was an assault on the deadlands to stop Tebryn from casting that final spell.

They battled through the undead army with what remained of Erebus's empires and after the main assault team was lost (the party was the private guard of the king of the combined army) they were sent in to infiltrate the tower.

Calwinna of Tyr faced off against her father in the deadlands. Abashi had risen and ruled the unending night sky. The battles were legendary. Inside the tower dark creatures summoned, rituals were performed and demonic visers prepared to barter for the pieces of Erebus that would be left after the ritual was performed. And there were many guardians.

But through heroism and talent, and a little help from the Umberguard, they reached the chamber where Tebryn was performing the ritual. Thats where the story got funky. Combat was always a minor aspect in my games. I planned a few throughout the game just so the players had a chance to roll dice and to break up the story, but we would often go hours without a battle. So its no surprise that the final conflict wasn't a battle it was an ethical crisis.

The just was that they discovered who Tebryn was and his dilema. That wasn't that pertinent to the characters as much as the players themselves since in the former campaign Tebryn was a player. The more pressing conflivt was between Tuoni and Auric. Tuoni wanted the players stopped, with ritual cast has was goign to collect all of the killed souls before they traveled to the underworld and create his own spiritual world to rule. Auric wanted the party to stop the spell, if all the power Tebryn had welled up wasn't released in the ritual it was enough for Auric to harness and become the new god of winter.

So the party was stuck between two evils and angry guys on all sides. Auric was an enigmatic as always, convinced from the beginning that it would all play out exactly as he wanted. Tuoni was much more aggressive.



Oh, wow....

Even if that's not lore, the implications of this whole story are amazing. Not the least of them is that Tuoni showed up - the mysterious three brothers again, it's kind of sad that thery don't have a bigger role in the current crises of Erebus. Another interesting tidbit is the presence of the Umberguard, a Hero who I think is drastically underestimated in the game - his lore just demands a major role somewhere. Tebryn is also cool, although his true backstory is buried a little too deep in the lore for my liking (I'm still not sure I have it down, although I know he's directly connected to Abashi somehow). All in all, even though the direct story isn't really applicable to the awaited scenarios, I'd like to think that some of the facets are used sometime. They're too cool not to be.

But again, that last paragraph is still speculation, as there's some ambiguity about exactly how and why the Aifon died.


or even if... all that is known is that they disseapered... no souls were gathered into vaults, they all just disseapered

No souls went to vaults probably means Tebryn collected them for his armageddon spells. I mean Kael said his spell would kill all memebrs of a race. It seems obvious thats what happened to the Aifons.

I just want to state this, the name of "The Draw" is so incredibly awesome. I'm not sure what else you could call it, the name is perfect. The Illians are so cool and full of flavor, worthy of my "favorite civilization".

Tebryn is also cool, although his true backstory is buried a little too deep in the lore for my liking (I'm still not sure I have it down, although I know he's directly connected to Abashi somehow).

In the game at least, Tebryn's phylactery (he was a lich) was embedded in Abashi's forehead!

/now if that isn't a safe place to keep it...

Tebyrn is not a lich. He is a potent Runecaster, whose magic all depends on inscribing magic symbols. He inscribed a resurrection symbol on Abashi's forhead, which will bring him back to live whenever he is killed so long as the rune is intact.

Tebyrn is not a lich. He is a potent Runecaster, whose magic all depends on inscribing magic symbols. He inscribed a resurrection symbol on Abashi's forhead, which will bring him back to live whenever he is killed so long as the rune is intact.

IIRC, Erebusian liches don't have phylacteries. So I suppose calling Abashi Tebryn's phylactery would be technically incorrect. But that said, lichdom and runecasting are not mutually exclusive.

How Tebryn Arbandi appeared on Erebus after deal with Ceridwen? He was reborn as a child or she created new body for him?

I think he was risen as a Lich.