If Alpha Centauri subforums can have big threads on this topic, we can too.

The Amurites, Elohim, and Kandros Fir's Khazad all seem well off. Lots of cool magic runs through Amurite society, making for a more convenient lifestyle and some spectacular shows (namely executions.) The Elohim are the standard "nice guy" faction you find in any setting with splintered factions like this. Kandros Fir, unlike his more distrustful, isolationist counterpart Thorne, runs a wealthy, open empire.

Calabim and Bannor are no brainers for worst, of course. There are some happy Calabim, the ones at the top, but most of the population is used as food and slave labor. The Bannor are a heavily religious society, the bane of anyone smart enough not to choke to death on their own drool. On top of that, they're a dangerous military dictatorship.

IMO, the Grigori would be the one nicest to live in. It's a society that's very open, industrious, and seems pretty well off, financially and militarily.


I can't think of anyone worse to be under than Hyborem.................

The Grigori have the advantage of living under an ex-arcangle who refuses to follow a religion. Freedom of religion's a nice thing to have, of course, but the real reason the Grigori come out ahead is that, quite frankly, religions in FfH are pretty bad things to live under. Additionally, there's clearly plenty of room for advancement, given that most civs only churn out one or two heroes (and those guys are often born special) while the Grigori pop Adventurers on a regular basis.

Still, if I had to choose, I'd shy away from the Grigori in the end. Freedom of religion (or rather, freedom from religion, since this is a world in which the ultimate Good is an oppressive, soul-crushing despotism) is a good thing, true, but I'd rather live under the Kuriotate. Those guys know how to live in a fantasy world. Just pick one of the massive, sprawling metropolises, stroll the streets alongside a variety of races, shop for clothes and jewelry, just wander around and sample the wide variety of cultures Cardith Lorda accepts... and, to top it off, you're ruled by the pseudo-reincarnation of Eurabates, the Gold Dragon.

Of course, if you're Evil, the Sheiam make a nice choice. As far as accepting cultures go, they look to be like an Evil Opposite of the Kuriotate. Plus they're all for freedom of research, so you'd have a wonderful scientific haven to research all the things that those fools kept hidden from you. Up until they destroy the world, anyway.

Worst off? I wouldn't say Bannor, since anyone living in a Bannor society would have been brought up with those fanatical ideals. By the same token, the Infernals at least give you the hope that some day you will rend the flesh of mortals and damn the world along with you (plus, I'm not sure if afterlives count for this question). No, the Calabim are clearly the worst off. For a Calabim peasant (which means everyone), you exist solely as a source of food. There is little hope for advancement, and what advancement exists is just a promotion to "mobile food source" or, if you're really lucky, "expendable suicide infantry." Your life is pointless: Nothing you do will have any chance of mattering, nor can you pray for escape. You're just working the fields and breeding until your lord invites you over for dinner.

While we're at it, can we expand the question to include religions?

Worst: Balseraph. You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what tomorrow will bring. Sometimes the worst case scenario is that you DO live to see it. And the fact that it is occasionally something GOOD that happens is worse, because you become hooked on hope.

Best: I think I'll have to go with Kuriotates. Big, open-minded cities, with a POWERFUL ruler.

The ELohim would be great until the Balseraphs invaded and enslaved you all.

While we're at it, can we expand the question to include religions?

Sure thing. :) Don't expect much discussion from me on that subject though. I'm familiar with the civilization and leader lore, but not the religious lore.

The ELohim would be great until the Balseraphs invaded and enslaved you all.

*sanctuary*

At the very worst, you are given 30 years to pick a good empire to relocate to.

Wouldn't the spell kick you out if you weren't planning to stay though? Or put you under House Arrest the moment you REALLY decided to defect?

Actually Bannor isn't so bad. I figure that they have developed law so that everyone is equally protected. It is unimaginable that you will get tricked, cheated or exploited by your superior in Bannor society, whereas it's pretty common in other places. Corruption is unheard about. Your life is just as worth as governors, it is equally protected. Also I think that taxes are also reasonable, no one will be overtaxed so much that they will go broke or starve, as protecting citizens is vital in keeping stability.
In harsh times as these, peasants are much more content to have that level of security than liberty. Surely Banors aren't best, but definitely not worst.

Plus, you have to bear in mind that these people have a really good reason to be religious fanatics: An arcangel personally led them out of Hell itself and is said to even now advise their leaders directly.

And people are generally safe from bandits pillaging the countryside, robbing travelers, stealing in the markets, breaking into houses...

Xienwolf pegged it. He and I seem to be on the same wavelength whenever the Belseraphs are involved.

If I lived in the Calabim empire, I would be food. I know I would be food. I would expect to be food. I would live dreading the day I stop working the fields and feed the jerk vampire who owns me.

If I lived in the Belseraph empire, I would go insane. I have no idea what would happen. I have no idea what to expect. As soon as you think you figure something out, the Belseraph reality would come crushing it. It is not "everything you know is wrong; black is white, up is down, short is long." That is contrariness and easy to grasp. Rather, it is "everything you know is flapjack; purple gravity, bird is employment, cthulhu fhtagn." (And yes, I found OO every time I play Belseraph.)

As for the best, I am torn between the Kuriotates and Elohim.

If I lived in the Belseraph empire, I would go insane. I have no idea what would happen. I have no idea what to expect. As soon as you think you figure something out, the Belseraph reality would come crushing it. It is not "everything you know is wrong; black is white, up is down, short is long." That is contrariness and easy to grasp. Rather, it is "everything you know is flapjack; purple gravity, bird is employment, cthulhu fhtagn."

. . . so, it's just like being a Scientologist?

you can not really easily answer that question. Every Civ in FfH has its own distinctive pro and cons. Given that all empires would be in a balance I would find it hard to choose where to live.

In a Kuriotates City I would certainly find a variety of goods and life will be quite open to explore, but otherwise it will be a very dirty, stinking place and a lot of strange people life in my neighborhood .

In a Calabim City I can be doomed and be eaten tomorrow, but on the other hand the society is deeply corrupted so if I am a high borne or if I can accumulate quite a substantial amount of money or I become a celebrity than I have the chance to receive the dark gift - joining the high society and receiving my own personal immortality with all the leisure at my hand.

In a Balseraph society I would certainly be well off if I am an artist, because this society loves entertainment.

The Bannor are my choice if I love clean, well run and orderly places. As long as I do not step over the line I would be well off and I would feel very safe. Occassionally our leaders rally us for military training and even when I have passed the age then my sons have to join the ranks, but thanks to overall propaganda I would be proud to serve my country, even to die for it or to sacrifice my sons for the noble course.

As a scholar I naturally would flock to a Amurites or Sheaim City. They simply will held me in high esteem and there is no morale or stuff to hinder my experiments.

Similiar things can certainly be said about every Civ.

I would say the worst choices are certainly only the Clan, the Doviello, the Malakim and the Infernals. Life has simply to many hardships in these societies moreover as these civs life in inhospitable areas.

Xienwolf pegged it. He and I seem to be on the same wavelength whenever the Belseraphs are involved.

If I lived in the Calabim empire, I would be food. I know I would be food. I would expect to be food. I would live dreading the day I stop working the fields and feed the jerk vampire who owns me.

If I lived in the Belseraph empire, I would go insane. I have no idea what would happen. I have no idea what to expect. As soon as you think you figure something out, the Belseraph reality would come crushing it. It is not "everything you know is wrong; black is white, up is down, short is long." That is contrariness and easy to grasp. Rather, it is "everything you know is flapjack; purple gravity, bird is employment, cthulhu fhtagn." (And yes, I found OO every time I play Belseraph.)

Perpentach may be insane, but his advisors are good about keeping his really wild propositions from getting too far out of hand. You're safe unless you happen to come to his attention. Granted, you've no guarantee that a wandering Freak will drag you off and mutilate you, but stuff like that's always a risk in a fantasy world. I still say it's preferable to being crammed into a city, forced to work until you get eaten.

you can not really easily answer that question. Every Civ in FfH has its own distinctive pro and cons. Given that all empires would be in a balance I would find it hard to choose where to live.

Sure you can! Imagine that you died tonight, and were told that you would be reincarnated onto the world of Erebus. If they gave you a choice, which would you choose?

Kuriotates for the best. EXCEPT that due to the ridiculous mechanics of the state religions, you'd be living in a city dedicated to the octopus overlords and all the terrible that comes with that. Oh, but cardith lorda had to have that tower of complacency..

need more good stuff for the religions that arent evil and/or insane.

I'd like to live with the Sidar myself. Loss of base feelings is a small price to pay to be an eternal and truly cerebral being.

I like to live among the Luchuirp during the height of their power. Golems doing all the hard work for you while you tinker away in your workshop sounds like the perfect life for a wanna-be modder like me.

The Amurites would be cool too, but Valledia scares me.

best: svartalfar. faeryl is hot.

The game(lore) is good if you are able to find something enough good for yourself in each of the sides. For the well-made world we need something like Devil's advocates to balance opinions.

Calabim. Powerful elite. You can (and you will) be one of them if you will reach 6-th level. You speak about corruption? But it is your quality, your advances, not your money make you the best. No? Fear is not enough to keep civilization. An order is needed (C has law mana and Flauros is organized): you are sure that if you worth something you will never be a food. And you will try to do your best to become strong and useful to become something more then food. That should be a society of equal opportunities with very strong stimulus to self-perfecting.

Infernals. That is not really people as population is not alive. So we can not speak of their comfort... Who knows what is best for them?

Balseraphs. Stability and flexibility are contradictory. In all my games for B from 0.25 I was able to build command posts everywhere. If you are enough flexible, mobile, communicative, open-minded and smart then you will have more use from such instability then discomfort. And permanent joy and inspiration is perfect for your creativity.

Sheaim. You know that human nature is wicked and the world is doomed so use your knowledge to get as much as possible for yourself. That is what science for: to find the course of nature and to use it for your profit. Learn much and you will make demons fight for you. One of few civs (with Luchuirp) who does not make your life spent in the war with neighbours.

Doviello. Wild and strong. You like vikings or Conan the Barbarian?

etc.

It really depends what position you were in society.

If I was an Erebus noble, I'd pick Calabim any day. You get immortality, hordes of slaves all trying to prove to you that they are worth more to you then their blood is, most likely some sort of huge palace and awesomeness in general.

But... If I had to be a peasant then the Lurchip are the obvious choice, like Kael said you get Golems to actually do the work you should be doing so you wouldn't really *be* a peasant. I mean, who wants to be a peasant anyway.

See if you are a noble than you can live happily ever after in any land and if you are a peasant than you are f** ehh not-so-well-off in any land as well.

A peasant in a Calabim City gets hunted for Royal Sport and the 'Greater Good' , in a Bannor City he gets drafted for Royal Ambition and the 'Greater Good' and in a Kuriotates City he lives in a Slum next to who-ever (actually what-ever) for Royal 'Good Doing' and the 'Greater Good'. In either way he is f** .. not so well off.

So the real question is where would your average Middle-Class Citizen having the best chances to turn his life into something worthwhile ?

And then it is really about your skill sets.. If you are an Engineer then naturally you rush to the Luchuirp, if you are an Academic then to the Amurites, if you are the Salesman type then Khazad would be the place to learn one thing or the other and if you are a young aspiring artist then certainly the Balseraph would provide you a great audience. Last but not least, if you are just huge and bully or in general being gifted with a good physique then of course the Bannor Land would be your heaven.

So finally if I really could not avoid being born in Erebus, then I think I would try to study in the Amurites Land and then maybe to stay there for good. For vacation I would like to see the Halls of the Dwarves, as well as the Mechanical Wonders of the Luchuirp, the Forests of the Elves as well as the Bazaars of the Kuriotates. I would certainly not travel to the Clan or to the Infernals, nor to the Doviello.

Living close to the Balserph border is also nice sicne you can jump across to attend the revelry and such (which is why the main character in the Revelry pedia entry picked that city for his post).

Luichirp would be my second choice, or first if I still wanted to enjoy being fully mortal.

If we assume, that we can't know what we are going to be, nobility or slaves, there are two major choices:

-taking a risk and going Calabim, Infernal, Clan or Doviello, where the strongest and the toughest have the easiest, but being a weak one would make your life pretty ruined.

-taking no risks, and choosing the one where the weakest are the best off.

The Bannor are fanatics, and they'll genocide you if you are on the wrong side, but you'll be safe from the most of the typical dangers.

The Elohim care for the weak, and that would be an obvious choice if someone chose the least risk option... until they get overrun by the Infernals for being too weak because of their pacifism.

The Grigori have a lot of freedom when compared to the most, and Cassiel is one of the more level-headed people of Erebus, but they are shunned by the religious leaders and might be living in a constant fear of "conversion of the heathen" by Bannor armies.



The Amurites and the Sheaim have both great scientific possibilities, but the Sheaim are often crazy, and they don't care for your safety at all, if it prevents their summon-a-host-of -huge-balors-for-no-reason-beyond-balors-themselves next door.

Under Valledia's rule you'd be taken from your family, to a school where your life serves one purpose: magical power. It's not so bad if you want it, but if you don't share those goals your life would be miserable. At the age of ten you could already be dead from dangerous tasks, and after that you have to stand the blood and death of being a siege mage. But you can rest assured that nobody will summon an army of undead in your neighbourhood while you are sleeping.

As an atheist I'd probably choose to live with the Grigoris. All these FFH Religions seem to be quite opressive against disbelievers. :rolleyes:

So the evil in FFH is associated with some darvinistic mechanisms while good - with some socialism-like (maybe even communism-like) systems. :D

Under Valledia's rule you'd be taken from your family, to a school where your life serves one purpose: magical power. It's not so bad if you want it, but if you don't share those goals your life would be miserable.

Rincewind the Wizzard!

Under Valledia's rule you'd be taken from your family, to a school where your life serves one purpose: magical power. It's not so bad if you want it, but if you don't share those goals your life would be miserable. At the age of ten you could already be dead from dangerous tasks, and after that you have to stand the blood and death of being a siege mage. But you can rest assured that nobody will summon an army of undead in your neighbourhood while you are sleeping.

Well, there would also be some good points. Enjoying paintings in octarine. Bribing the librarian at the Catacomb Libralus with bananas. The occasional conversation with the anthropomorphic personification of death. Plus, it's just about your only choice if you'd like living in a mage-heavy civ where you can't be eaten or sacrificed on a whim.

I think maybe the Kuriotates is the best safe-better. After all, the hallmark of Kuriotate society is tolerance, and a city is always a good place for someone with a brain to work his way up from a rubbishy starting point.

Don't forget that Amurite society is very split. The fast track to power is being good at magic. But you can also be a normal citizen. Valledia the Even has, I seem to recall, no magic skillz. She's just damn good at what she does.

I think Valledia has some magic skills, 'cause at some occasions she transforms into an earth elemental.

Valledia has magic skill, but that is not the point.

In a fantasy world the skill for magic is simply equal to higher mental abilities. In the same way as on our world some people are born with more and some with less brain. So we might assume that the same percentage of our society that has academic skills would have magic skills in Erebus.

A city is certainly always a good place for making a career and Kuriotates cities, which are full of immigrants and refugees are breeding pits for a number of exceptionally able and resourceful characters, that is for sure. Nevertheless the question is whether you want to live in the chaos and the filth that comes with such circumstances. No doubt a Kuriotates city is a good place to work your way up, but maybe later you would like to shift to more pleasant locations.

If I could be an elf, I'd like to live with the Ljosalfar - beautiful treetop cities, lush forests all around, growth and vibrance everywhere. I think for the sheer aesthetics of their lands, it would be lovely to live there. The whole nature worship thing is nice as well, pretty romantic.

My other choice would be the Grigori. They seem the most liberal and open-minded of FfH's civilisations, providing a safe haven from those fleeing the zealotry of the religious states (though if you lived in an Empyrean Kuriotate empire, that wouldn't be a problem). The Grigori seem very philosophical, which I like.

The worst to live under, for me would probably be the Bannor. Better to live in fear of crusading armies than live in a society of zealotrous nutcases, I say. Probably also anyone under the Octopus Overlords - mind slavery, hurray! The Balseraphs would not be pleasant either, I'd feel terrible living amidst all that decadent revelry and grotesque entertainment, not to mention fearing the whimsical commands of a mad king.

Everyone mentions the Balseraphs (other than Kael) as one of the bad places to live. But why? There's always going to be some entertainment for whatever you're into, you'd learn to ignore the stuff you didn't like. As for crazy king, if he doesn't ever see you, then he won't randomly order you to be a dancing monkey. Course, he could decide to give you an upside down mansion if he felt like it. There's always an upside to insanity, or else no one would survive there.

Best Good- Luchirip or Kuriorites for reasons stated above.
Neutral- Falamar's Lanun. ARR! Who's up for some swashbuckling?
Evil- Svalvafar- As far as we know, they only kill enemies/neighbors.

I'd feel terrible living amidst all that decadent revelry and grotesque entertainment
Well I wouldn't ;)

Well I wouldn't ;)

What, the bloodsports and... whatever they do with the caged slaves, and the freakshows?

Yay for Boxing, Ultimate Fight, MMA, K1, Wrestling...
And a bit of drugs and prostitution ain't all that bad :p

What, the bloodsports and... whatever they do with the caged slaves, and the freakshows?

Add some gambling and it sounds just like Las Vegas :lol:

Add some gambling and it sounds just like Las Vegas :lol:

To be honest, that really is how I've pictured the Balseraphs. I figure people on Erebus look at the Balseraph Empire the way people in America look at Las Vegas: The center for all sorts of entertainment you can't find anywhere else--some because everything's brighter and grander in Vegas, others because everything's legal in Vegas. A nexus of decadence and sin that everybody who's anybody would gladly visit as a tourist (some under assumed names). What happens in Balseraph lands stays in Balseraph lands.

Except for the birth of twisted Freaks. Those sometimes escape into the wilderness.

Enjoy well your continents and crowded cities, but leave the islands to us! The Lanun would be fun, assuming Falamar is king. An entire civilisation of pirates!

Add some gambling and it sounds just like Las Vegas :lol:

Heh, I felt the way I described above when I went to Las Vegas, actually. Although it's all very big and amazing, I couldn't help but feel that the whole place was wrong - every massive portion of food and every free refill made me think about how much food must be eaten in that place every day, and how many starving people it could feed. It was always there, in the corner of my mind, how horribly decadent the place was.

Which is why the Balseraphs have an evil alignment I guess.

Enjoy well your continents and crowded cities, but leave the islands to us! The Lanun would be fun, assuming Falamar is king. An entire civilisation of pirates!

Arrrrr!

And don't ye scurvy dogs forget how pleased ye Flying Spaghetti Monster will be with us!

And there'll be lots of ye olde rhum!

Up until you get abducted, and then either driven insane to serve as a cultist to dark beings formed from the insane nightmares of a comatose god or stuck full of hallucinogenic drugs to serve as their mouthpieces, at any rate.

Yeah, the Lanun technically don't need to go OO, but still...

I'm with Kael, I think the best civ to live under would be the Luchirip because:
1) I'm lazy and if golems do everything for me I have more time to mess around with making more golems or doing nothing.
2) It's a society that values intelligence and creativity
3) My favorite civ

Let me see... I wouldn't mind being Luchiurp and having golems to do my work, but other then that I can't see myself living under most good civs. I'd go crazy under Bannor rule, become an Overlords cultist, and probably get executed. If I were guaranteed a place of power, the Balseraphs or Calabim would both be great places to live, allowing me to indulge my inner hedonist. The Amurites seem to be a bit too much like they'd have a caste system (albeit a flexible one) based around magic ability, but again, guarantee me magical skill and I'll sign right up. I'd never enjoying living under the Sheaim and Elohim, because both seem too monk-like. (Granted, one is a set of Satanic monks, but monks are monks.)
If I was told I'd be dropped in Erebus as a peasant, I'd have to choose the Kuriotates, Lanun, Grigori, or Malakim, in that order. All seem like they'd be very socially mobile and tolerant. The Malakim placed bottom of the four because I doubt those not worshiping the local god would rise high in the ranks. The Grigori might be about the same, except with misotheism (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/misotheism) instead of their religion. (It isn't really atheism, IMHO, because they're not denying gods exist... it's hard to deny a being that rains hellfire upon his foes.) I imagine the Lanun opinion on religion being something like this: "I don't care if yer an Agares-worshiping, blood drinkin', demon-summonin' freak, as long as yer keep yer dirty paws of yer crewmates. I also don't care if yer a preachy, Junil-lovin' Order nut as long as He don't mind a bit o' piracy... fer the greater good, of course. My question, laddy... can ya sail?" The Kuriotates, meanwhile, would be actively tolerant and socially mobile, and I'd probably be able to find a safer job then sailing the seas.

Actually, if I were a Balseraph, I'd rather be a peasant than a noble. If you're a peasant, you can slip under the radar, indulging in hedonism while remaining anonymous. If you're a noble, you're beholden to the whims of an insane telepathic clown who could one day promote you above your superior officer and the next remove you from command as he decides to adopt the Philosophical trait (sorry, Organized guy, but there's no longer a place for you in the kingdom).

Ljosalfar , without doubt.
And definitely NOT the Kuriotates!!
The Kuriotates' leader is very fine, but the life style is not.
Too many of you like big cities and city life. I don't.
I already find that this current planet is overcrowded and has 5.000.000.000 too many people, we are spreading like viruses, and behave in cities like ants.
If shopping is your meaning of life, Paris Hilton then is your next FFH hero!!! (Hum!... perhaps is it an idea..., a Rome Hyatt hero in FFH)

I want a World with trees, enchanted fountains, pure air and fair understanding of others, nature and animals... because where I live, nothing of these exist...

The worst?
Calabim and Bannor: I am more than cautious with all fanatics!...

Ljosalfar , without doubt.
And definitely NOT the Kuriotates!!
The Kuriotates' leader is very fine, but the life style is not.
Too many of you like big cities and city life. I don't.
I already find that this current planet is overcrowded and has 5.000.000.000 too many people, we are spreading like viruses, and behave in cities like ants.
If shopping is your meaning of life, Paris Hilton then is your next FFH hero!!! (Hum!... perhaps is it an idea..., a Rome Hyatt hero in FFH)

I want a World with trees, enchanted fountains, pure air and fair understanding of others, nature and animals...

The worst?
Calabim and Bannor: I am more than cautious with all fanatics!...

To be accurate: Arendel's Ljosalfar. Amelanchier's would be a much more savage and violent place

Oooops... yes zxcvbnm .... you saved the World Peace.

I'd luv' to live in ljos, 'cause of stange herbs that grows in their forest (aahhhh ljos hemp, nothin' better) but last time I asked, they said t'me : "AAARHH get away you ORC !!!"
So I guess I'll go back to Braduk, where people are welcoming to strangers, remember we've got an always burnin' fire.

People who romanticize nature don't make sense to me. It's like they forget that the entire ecosystem is basically built on baby eating ( literally) monsters of differrent sizes that generally live very short, meaningless existences only to rot and be devoured unmourned, unremembered, and unremarkable.

Screw that.

Don't you find the positive output of nature being romantic ? I mean you have a purpose even in death : feeding the newborn.

Romantics potentially is applicable to everything from far away. And to nothing you meet every day. :D

I think the best are Hippus , for me
espesially if they empyrean

Erebus is a disgusting place to try to live in, surely. It risks being dragged into hell because it's between hell and "Earth after all the ice caps have melted and nuclear war ensued", the latter of which I would definitely prefer...

If I really had to choose? Grigori, no doubt. It's like your typical kingdom in the early medieval times, maybe with more diseases and more crime perhaps, but at least most people end up with a plot of land, a spouse and some children end up surviving to adulthood. As long as those crazy angels/aspects are out of your way you're "fine". Being robbed, beaten, raped, cheated is a lot better than being dragged into an OO or AV temple.

Why not the Bannor: young men depopulated from constant war, you'll either be killed or you will kill until you go insane. I'd imagine polygamy will be rampant, and women are only judged by how many strong children they can breed. Corruption will be rampant as local landlords will met out "justice" before a confessor arrives. If a confessor arrives, they'll kill everyone for making a small lie 15 days ago.

Why not the wood elves: little evidence of structured society or rule of law. Do you want to be caught in a tribal war African-style? *There is a reason why tribalism is a more primitive civic than slavery in the civic choices of CIV4*. With slavery you have less rights, but with tribalism you're less than cattle. Nobody even recognises your existance.

Elohim: they won't be able to protect you from the evils of the world.

Don't you find the positive output of nature being romantic ? I mean you have a purpose even in death : feeding the newborn.

Same's true for the Calabim. You have a purpose even in death: Feeding your vampire overlords. Or how about OO? You have a purpose even in death: Becoming a mindless thrall to an insane cultist. And then there's the Ashen Veil. You have a purpose even in death: Having your soul thrown screaming into Hell where you are transformed into a generic slave to Hyborem, furthering his eventual destruction of the world.

Elohim: they won't be able to protect you from the evils of the world.

The Elohim are all about protection*. I'd certainly feel safe enough under their rule. It'd be particularly nice to live next to the Pool of Tears: I get all sorts of health benefits, and the Elohim will fight to ensure it never falls into evil hands. Seriously, what do you suppose the life expectancy is for someone with a cottage right by the Pool? Too bad it'd probably be expensive real estate...

*No, not that kind of protection**, you pervert.
**Not that kind, either. When they say it'd be a shame if your house burned down, they're genuinely concerned for your well-being.

Don't you find the positive output of nature being romantic ? I mean you have a purpose even in death : feeding the newborn.

I think it's pretty...? >.<

Edit: Not the process of the newborn feeding on the dead. Nature.

People who romanticize nature don't make sense to me. It's like they forget that the entire ecosystem is basically built on baby eating ( literally) monsters of differrent sizes that generally live very short, meaningless existences only to rot and be devoured unmourned, unremembered, and unremarkable.

Screw that.

Butthurt veg(etari)an ITT?

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

As a male, I'd think the worst would be living under the man-hating Os-Gabella. I doubt she treats men in her society very well. And with all the gating in of weird creatures and stuff, it's not exactly safe to live with the Sheaim. Their main goal is to cause armageddon after all.

The Elohim seems the best to live in. They defend their territory well, and they avoid wars whenever they can so you're not likely to be enlisted to fight and die in war. They care for the weak, and if Einion Logos wins with the altar victory you get to go to a nice place where no man has gone before.

The Elohim seems the best to live in. They defend their territory well, and they avoid wars whenever they can so you're not likely to be enlisted to fight and die in war. They care for the weak, and if Einion Logos wins with the altar victory you get to go to a nice place where no man has gone before.

Elohim would definetly be my pick. I could live a peacful life, safe from many of the demonic forces, and I know my empire would be continually battling hell and preventing the Armaggedon. Also, if I wanted to, I could become a warrior speacalized in killing the evil demons. It's pretty awesome.

Evernoob, the Elohim would make an excellent third story. ;)

Evernoob, the Elohim would make an excellent third story. ;)

I was actually debating between the Elohim and Calabim for my 2nd story :lol:

Yeh the elohim are pretty awesome. They'd be my favourite civ if they had more unique art.

Many seem to have Bannor pegged for dragging you off to concentration camps or something. I don't see that. (and if you do, I think you are reading more into them than is there) The Bannor aren't about ruling the world, or or fanatacally wiping out all others. They are about disicpline.
A Bannor soldier is not going to sack your land on the way back from a crusade (like the real crusaders). They won't shake down local merchants. They won't usurp the ruling lords. They do
exactly
what they are told, until an order violates their laws, in which case they are immobile.
Unless they are infiltrated or slowly corrupted over time (a possibility; Kael has said it was happening in his old game--but not the default assumption) it would probably be a decent place to live. Perhaps like Israel; used to constantly fighting for their lives, every citizen is expected to be able to fight if need be (though in reality in pre-industrial times most of the population even here must be farmers or fishermen or herders).
Of course, while it's silly to assume independant thought is ruthlessly punished, it isn't encouraged. If art and culture is your deal, you want kuriotates, or Balseraphs if you enjoy a walk on the wild side (and enslavement--don't assume only foreigners will be in those cages.) But there would be a strong kinship, esprit de corps, between most people. It would be like being in the marines, probably with less cursing. Not exactly pleasant... but when the brutal Doviello, wild Clan, or Infernals come around, the discipline pays off, not just for them, but for all their non-evil neighbors. Other Civs may resent their wars because they think the alternative to war is peace--but given their foes, it is more likely that the alternative is enslavement or death.
Likewise, a devotion to law doesn't mean harsh treatment for minor offenses. Laws can be just or unjust; but the key is that they are consistent, unless there is corruption, allowing people to live their lives free of the fear that the local rulers can come and take whatever they please without even a pretext of justice. And if a civ represents a more cosmic or abstract law, serves a god of law, that implies that law is not just rules, but justice. So it is silly to think that they go around throwing people into the dungeon for picking their nose or what have you.
Now of course, in such a society, if an evil leader gained power and managed to change the law and such, he'd have a powerful weapon for oppression. And in the real world, or a darker version thereof, that's a possibility. But wicked leaders are a possibility under the Elohim or Kuriotates just as much.

Nikis-knight: point taken about the Bannor. Not a nice place to live, but a safe one. At the same time, however, that is also precisely the reason why I would NOT want to live with the Elohim or the Kuriotates. Safety comes first in this nasty world.

However, I still prefer the Grigori, because their diplomacy of neutrality would protect them from harm, without actually going to war bashing everyone like the Bannor.

The Malakim wouldn't be a bad place. With the worship of Lugus, tolerance, high thought, they're probably a very high minded race. They would definetly be a nice place. You wouldn't have to worry about vampires either, as they be able to stand the light.

Yeah, Malakim society wouldn't be bad, but I don't think I'd enjoy living in their desert climate. I still think that the Elohim would be best, followed by the Luchuirp, followed by the Grigori.

I also think that while life in the Bannor would be tough and spartan that it wouldn't be horrible. If my ancestors had survived a journey through hell, and I was living in a world of petty, warmongering, vindictive gods and some of our enemies had armies of DEMONS, while other wanted to destory creation and bring about the end of the world I certainly would rethink my stance on religious devotion and fanaticism in general. I would take some comfort in living in a highly structured military oriented society in a world full of demons, dragons, zombies, demon worshippers, orcs, ogres, barbarians, magic, angry gods, and otherwise just your run of the mill hostile humans. Especially when my people had been delivered from damnation once.

I also think that while life in the Bannor would be tough and spartan that it wouldn't be horrible. If my ancestors had survived a journey through hell, and I was living in a world of petty, warmongering, vindictive gods and some of our enemies had armies of DEMONS, while other wanted to destory creation and bring about the end of the world I certainly would rethink my stance on religious devotion and fanaticism in general. I would take some comfort in living in a highly structured military oriented society in a world full of demons, dragons, zombies, demon worshippers, orcs, ogres, barbarians, magic, angry gods, and otherwise just your run of the mill hostile humans. Especially when my people had been delivered from damnation once.

This is a good take on the Bannor. For all their devotion to a strict hierarchy the one thing thats different between them and earthly "facist" societies is that the Bannor have a really good reason to be like that. In hell any members mistake would doom the group. They moved through hell as perfectly organized military units. Every aspect of their life was detailed and perfected to minimize risk and protect the community. Any weakness was exploited by the demons and used against them. It didnt matter if that weakness was military, greed, ego, etc etc. Those that were unable to sumlimate their individual desires were abandoned or killed rather than allow the risk to continue.

The result of that on the gene pool and the culture is immense. They are suspicious of the unusual, comfortable with the predictable, and intolerent of those that value themselves above the community. Their strength is their weakness (FfH tends to be about unbalanced ideologies, the gods themselves are fractured concepts personified with little respect for their balancing attribute).

Just like in all socieities there are good and evil members (well.. any good people who live in the Infernal lands certainly don't want to be there). I always think about Maraphene as the perfect example as evil among the Bannor, methodical, aggresive, talented and ambicious:


Valin led Saverous to an old section of the town, set off the docks and buried in a maze of warehouses was a small neighborhood of cramped houses and cobblestone streets. A plaza had been torn up to make way for a statue of a charging knight with a sword blackened from the tip to halfway along the blade. The knight held the sword in both hands, determination set in his face against the undisplayed enemy, or perhaps he was intended to be forever attacking the small fish market he faced.

“Who is the knight?” Saverous asked. He had been about to ask about eating but the octopi hanging in front of the fish market had ruined his appetite.

“You don’t know him? That’s the man that freed you, legionnaire Gil-ganthor of the First Light, he killed the Burnt Priest. His sword is supposed to be turned black where it touched the priest’s blood. He is an advisor to the emperor now, and he holds about as many titles and rewards as the Order can give.”

On the other side of the market was a squat building with sign in front of it that read, “Fennigrins Tooth”. Valin tied his horse to the post in front of the inn.

“You know all the nice places.” Saverous said, pointing to carriage waiting beside the building. The carriage was well appointed with deep scarlet silk hanging over the windows and obscuring most of the brass frame. Each side of the carriage had the gold symbol of a wavy blade in front of the sun inscribed on it. A guard stood in front of the carriage with pole axe taller than Saverous. He wore a loose shirt tucked in scarlet gloves and tied close with bronze colored cords around his forearms. He had a similar design on his leggings, boots and cords around his calves.

“It’s a confessor, a relatively new rank in Alexandria. They were priests trained to fight the forces of the Burnt Priest; exorcists, diviners, bloodletters. With the war over most turned to enforcing justice in the empires cities, quite a few came to Alexandria.”

They entered the inn. A guard dressed like the one in front of the carriage stood in front of beige brick staircase leading up. A girl washed already clean tables and a portly man with devastatingly bad mustache stood behind the bar absent-mindedly wiping glasses.

Valin walked to the bar and told asked the portly man for a room.

“I would be happy to sir but I am afraid our rooms are closed at the moment. Could I offer you and your friend a hot meal while you wait and a tidy room as soon as one becomes available?”

“That’s fine, there is no hurry. It is easier for a man to eat while tired than sleep while hungry.”

Valin smirked at his wit but the innkeeper ignored it, glancing nervously at the guard at the bottom of the stairs as if bad humor was a crime. When the innkeeper didn’t respond Valin dropped a few coins on the bar and continued.

“Could you have someone tend to my horse as well?”

“Of course sir,” the innkeeper replied, knocked out of his thoughts by the sound of coins “I’ll have my Annie get to that right away. Have a seat and I will fetch your dinner and even light a fire if you would like.”

The innkeeper did as promised and soon Saverous and Valin were seated before a fire, eating stew and fist sized rolls with thick, almost leathery skin and soft centers.

As they ate a call came from upstairs, “Pelicus!”. The guard immediately charged up the stairs, lowering his pole axe so it could fit up the stairwell. A few minutes later he came down escorting a haggard man wearing a white linen shirt, with long braided hair. His skin was pale and hung in loose waves off of his bones. The back of his neck and his hands were wrapped in bandages and they were soaked with blood. He looked like a man past death but not allowed to die.

He staggered behind the guard, falling into him. The guard grabbed the back of his neck, causing the man to let out a course cry and sob uncontrollably, and forced him out of the inn.

More scarlet came down the stairs, a woman in long embroidered robes with her hair tied back by gold circlets. The bartender and the girl doubled their cleaning efforts as she entered. The woman stopped at Saverous and Valin’s table considering both of them, Valin didn’t look up from his food.

Saverous did, and noticed the woman had brown eyes so light they were almost yellow. She stood staring at Valin and when he didn’t say anything she started the conversation:

“Returned to ask forgiveness brother Valin?”

Brother was a term used for a common layperson, a farmer who attended church on Sunday. In other places it would be a term of familiarity and friendship, but in the highly regimented stations of the Order it was an insult.

“I seek the forgiveness of Junil wherever I am, there is no reason to return to Alexandria for it.”

She smirked, “You still profess a devotion to Junil even though you mock his church. You claim to follow the god of law while you disobey them.”

Valin didn’t respond.

She turned to Saverous, “And you, did you know that the man you eat with is nothing but a humble peasant, a former knight stripped of all standing? Or has he tried to claim some authority with you that he doesn’t possess, has he led you to believe that he is a knight in the service of Junil?”

Saverous didn’t answer, he just stared back at her. Again came her twisted smirk and she placed her hands on the table, leaning in by Saverous’s ear where she whispered, “Confess”.

Saverous felt a welling inside his chest at the word, as if the answer was being pulled up his throat and out of him and he found himself saying, “Yes, he told me he was in the service of Junil.”

She leaned back, pleased with herself. “This is a dangerous game you play rogue knight, you had some friends among the elders but I don’t think your lawlessness will go unpunished for long. Do not be surprised if one day you find an oathtaker has come for you. In fact, I might be negligent in my duties if I failed to bring you in for this heresy.”

In another world, a world of dust and shadows, Galenna stood over Valin. She was an angel of Junil and heard him silently praying for help, to make this go away, to be able to stay on his task. The inn room was nothing but grey with a few reflections from objects or people of powerful faith or emotion. A knife on one table had been used to kill a man and in this world it lay still with the blood on it. The spirit of a prostitute who had been strangled in one of the rooms sat rocking in the stairwell corner, staring at Galenna and refusing to believe she was dead.

The people in the inn room were represented here, grey and distant. In this world a feathered serpent coiled around the woman’s neck, whispering into her ear. As she considered turning Valin in the serpent eyed the angel and whispered again, cautioning her against it.

She didn’t hear the serpent, not as a person would hear another, but it guided her more than any verbal advice. She leaned away from the table and considered the two, unwilling to leave without making one more attack, uncertain of how to proceed. The serpent provided the answer.

“Why do you stay in an inn when you have a home in this very city? Have you visited your wife or son yet?”

Valin met the woman’s yellow gaze. Galenna put her hands on his shoulders, comforting his spirit.

“No, I have not seen them.”

“Ahh..” she continued, “aren’t you worried about how they fare without you?”

“I trust that Junil will provide for them while I obey his commands.”

She smiled. “Oh, he has provided for them, provided her a new husband and a bed for them to share. For your son a new father, one who is not a traitor to the church.”

Galenna cried the tears that Valin wouldn’t show. Valin’s faith dimmed at the words, his reflection in this spiritual world faded.

Happy with the effect of her words the woman turned and left the inn room, leaving the two companions alone, the bartender and girl had long since fled.

Saverous broke the silence.

“And all this time I thought you guys grew flowers, danced and sung songs about sunshine and friendship. That woman would have been at home in the burnt priests army.”

“That was Maraphene, a confessor of the Order, and a very successful legion-dosen that would have garnered herself a few more ranks if the war had continued. I almost think she was sad to see it end. Her skills aren’t particularly suited for the domestic life.”

Saverous took another mouthful of bread, “All the good people I met on the battlefield and somehow I missed her, it’s a shame.”

Valin offered a weak smile at the joke. He was on this quest to find Saverous’s salvation and Saverous was trying to comfort him. He wondered how a man who had been the forefront of a demonic army could become good, or how he had gone from being a paladin in high standing to whatever he is now. And for whatever evils Maraphene was capable of, Valin knew she hadn’t lied.

this is the bannor becoming corrupt, isn't it? the preists twisting sabathiels orders?

So Kael, after the mod is finished, how about thinking about a novel? =P
Whenever you share the pieces of Saverous' story I always wanna go out and buy the whole book...

yeah, saverous is so much more than just an early hero...

Yeah, at that point Sabathiel had already abandoned the Bannor and the church was starting to drift away from its mandate of justice and towards and earthly beurocracy. Valin broke with the church to do what he felt Junil was guiding him to do, but he still has a lot of self-doubt about it.

I would love to write a book one day. I have lots of ideas for stories and characters, but I really need to polish up my writing ability. I think the ideas are the hard part though so its doable, and I wouldnt expect to create anything of value without needing a significant ramp up time to become proficient in the project. So someday, hopefully.

*seconds that*

And I got the whiff that Maraphene waws being less deliberately evil and more beurocratic, stiff, and unwilling to place any sort of higher good than the instructions of "He is a traitor to the church, therefore prosecute him (Valin)"


Edit- Whoops, came out after Kael's post. Sowwy.

*seconds that*

And I got the whiff that Maraphene waws being less deliberately evil and more beurocratic, stiff, and unwilling to place any sort of higher good than the instructions of "He is a traitor to the church, therefore prosecute him (Valin)"


Edit- Whoops, came out after Kael's post. Sowwy.

Your right though, Maraphene would never imagine that she is evil.

I assumed that the feathered serpent means that she was under demon influence, unbeknowst to her. I'd probably guess one of the lesser fallen angels of Mammon, although it could also be one of Esus or a fallen angel whose god is not fallen (possibly once an angel of Sirona, since it seems to be the opposite of spirit/wisdom, and since her archangel has feathers).

Excellent analysis of the Bannor Nikis, reminds me of an old quote:

"The dove believes the choice is between fighting and not fighting, the hawk believes the choice is between fighting now and fighting later, when your enemy is strong enough to defeat you".

Poor valin goes through so much crap :(

Compared to some of the other characters, who are randomly getting possessed by demons, chased by angry mobs, tortured in exotic ways....... he doesn't have it *so* bad for someone on Erebus, especially a good guy.

"The dove believes the choice is between fighting and not fighting, the hawk believes the choice is between fighting now and fighting later, when your enemy is strong enough to defeat you".

As someone who owns a pet dove, I can tell you they are not nearly as peaceful as peaceful as people tend to assume. She used to constantly bully our other bird (a cockatiel which died a few years ago), quickly pecking in her direction but rarely actually hitting her. (I also knew someone who has a dove, a cockateil, and a cat who said that the cockateil was afraid of the dove, and that the cat was terrified by both birds.)

Of course, this quote wasn't really about birds, but types of people with different views on war.

:lol: A very hawkish dove, you might say.

Of course, this quote wasn't really about birds, but types of people with different views on war.
As far as I know dove and hawk lobby are names for US political instruments that influence US politics in or out of war? (Perhaps someone from US could explain it better)

Elohim are doves and Bannor are hawks.

A dove is implying that the person it's describing sees war as an absolute last resort or won't ever consider it at all.

A hawk is one who "itches" for fighting or sees it as a diplomatic tool and are willing to use it.

Conventionally speaking, the Kuriotates seem like the nicest civilisation to live in, being decidedly benevolent and at the same time well-balanced. That said, it might easily come across as rather dull and/or complacent. With that in mind, the Bannor, the Amurites and the Luchuirp all seem fairly good in their own way.

As to the worst, well, conventional wisdom obviously implies the Infernals. ;) The "disadvantages" of living under the Balseraphs have been aptly pointed out earlier in the thread, but as seen in Beeri Bawl's story, there is at least some chance of escaping it if you are lucky.

And speaking of Beeri Bawl, a somewhat recent game has shown me a more unusual "least pleasant empire" - an evil, militaristic, aggressive empire of the Ashen Veil-worshiping Luchuirp. Given the connotations of insanity inherent in Ashen Veil, you get a powerful, expanding empire led by satanist midget mad scientist mages. Pretty scary when you consider it. The Dwarven fondness for booze makes this potentially even scarier. ;)

satanist midget mad scientist mages.
Why ever wouldn't you want to live there? :lol:

Not to mention the fact that the Luichurp ruler/priest class can get by with a lot fewer Luichurp underlings, since they have the golems. More people to sacrifice, in the name of science.

The gods are not all equal in power, you've said that Agares was the greatest. Personally I also feel that Junil is the weakest of the gods; law and justice are such abstract things to be in command of, after all. The real problem is that the true power of his "aspect" so to speak can only be manifested through mortal followers, and I'd imagine that in the Age of Dragons, he really had to co-operate with mortal heroes to help him face off against the evil gods. Hence, I find it difficult that Sabethiel would so easily abondon the Bannor. That would leave Junil completely castrated in terms of influance on Erebus, totally powerless to fight against any evil.

Hey - after all that, I still stand by my opinion that the Grigori are the best, because there is little reason for anyone to bring war against them. It also feels more human, with their emphasis on material well-being and freedom FROM religion, if it's Erebus-style religions we're talking about.

As far as I know, Cerueneous is the weakest of the gods, because he is not a true god. Junil has the most widespread worship, making him one of the strongest.

Rather than just listing best and worst, let's look at what the life is like in different civilizations :)

Most likely to feed you - Elhoim
Most likely to feed on you - Calabim
Most likely to feed you to a pet - Swaltafar
Most likely to give you a pet (animal companion) - Lojafar
Most likely to make you a pet - Balseraph
Most likely to make you target practice for pet demon - Sheaim
Most likely to protect you from a pet demon - Bannor
Most likely to protect a pet demon from you - Amurites
Most likely to make you a mechanical slave - Luchirp
Most likely to make you a slave - Lanun (Under OO)
Most likely to sell you - Hippus
Most likely to sell you well crafted swords - Khazad
Most likely to kill you with swords - Doviello
Most likely to kill you with claws - Clan
Most likely to offer you a claw of friendship - Kuriotates
Most likely to offer you a flask of friendship - Malakim
Most likely to ignore you - Sidar

That should cover all of them. :)

As for actual answer, tree cities of elves sound nice, but humans would be out of place there, so I'd chose an Amurite university instead. The worst place to live as a regular person would be Calabim empire (where you are just cattle), and the worst place to live as a nobleman would be Balseraph empire (where important people are more likely to draw the attention of mad ruler).

Amurite Universities suck pretty hard. If the exams don't kill you, your colleagues might. And if they don't kill you, you can look forward to earning your stripes as a battle mage for a few years.

I don't think that a Gods worship affects his/hers/its inherent power, only the ability to manifest themselves and their effects on Erebus.

Earlier posts by Kael seemed to imply that it was, but he has made clear lately that it does not effect their power. I think he said that it does not even effect his ability to act in Erebus exactly, only that a followers cannot channel their gods power beyond the level of their faith. The Compact is a labyrinthine codex of regulations on their actions, which doesn't often allow them to act directly, and rations the amount of influence they do have (they can use all their power at once for a single large action, or perform many minor miracles)

Cernunnos is still the weakest of the gods though, since he was the only one not created by The One (I originally thought that all the true angels were created by the One, but Kael's post seemed to imply that he just made the 21 main gods and gave them the power to create their lesser angels, even archangels). Also, the original god of his sphere, Succellus, was perhaps the weakest of the gods anyways before he was defeated by Mulcarn (at least Basium thought so). Junil had the most followers and was the eldest of the gods, so he is inherently powerful and has the most disciples who are able to channel him and use his power to change creation.

Why would you want to live in an elven empire? Sure, you would not be so "out of place", if they accept you. No supernatural calamities, but you'd be living in poverty, as I would imagine elves need a lot less than humans to live on. You'd be very lacking in human comforts. But that's when the two factions are at peace. When they are at war, it would be like the ethnic cleansing by child soldiers, like in Africa, except a lot worse. Better than living as Calabim food, but I'd still prefer a human empire

For whoever mentioned the Amurites: I'd imagine it will be a very unsafe place to live in. Law enforcement would at least be a nightmare.

*****

Wait - if the number of worshipppers and the strength of their faith does not have any effect on the powers of the angels, then why would the angels try to gain more worshippers, and to have the worshippers become more devout?

More specific: if your rival has more inherent power than you, then how would gaining more worshippers to fight for you help you at all? If I'm strong then obviously having more worshippers means I have more freedom to use my powers to shape Erebus into what I desire, but if I don't have enough goodies to spread amongst the worshippers I already have, would I want even more people praying (begging) for goodies? I would think not, but it seems that all the angels are always eager for more people to worship him/her, for whatever reason.

Or perhaps, and here's what I'm thinking: if I spend my powers strategically, then my worshippers will be more effective at overpowering yours... like a giant game of Civ. Did Kael intend us to BE one of the angels leading a civilization?

I am pretty sure that the people themselves are able to perform acts based on how strong their own faith is (without using the power of the god they worship). Thus if you convince them to follow your true ideals & goals they will use their own power instead of you having to use up what you are capable of.

Thus a weak god with many followers who are well aligned to his ideals can accomplish much more than a strong god with no followers who does everything himself, he just doesn't do it himself.

Wait - if the number of worshipppers and the strength of their faith does not have any effect on the powers of the angels, then why would the angels try to gain more worshippers, and to have the worshippers become more devout?
Some don't care, like Arwan.
For some, having worshipers might be a different way to express there power. Our gods are not omniscient, and having sentient beings running around with your same goals would be very helpful.
Also, it would keep those mortals from working at cross purposes to you. Even if you don't give them power, men (and like races) have their own abilities to effect creation, so having them on your team rather than your foes would be important.
For many though, this is an end in itself and not a means. Agares want to corrupt the world. Followers of Agares, cruel and selfish men following him are a sign to the One that his universe is flawed, and he should return the god's full powers--or at least not hold their own flaws against them.

I meant if I was an elf, I'd like to live in an elven empire. I mean, if we're going to imagine we can live in Erebus, why not imagine we can also be whatever race we want? :P

Maybe there should be a new thread? If you were in erebus, what would you want to be?

Being a vampire would be pretty cool, or maybe an influencial priest of the Order in a corrupted Bannor empire. (where the priests do what they like and ignore sabathiel)

I'd just want to be a scholar or... what exactly do elves do? I guess it would be cool to be a simple priest of leaves or maybe a druid...

You guys are missing how great the Sidar are. If you have the mental fortitude to face eternity, you have unlimited potential to be exactly what you want to be. Your worst problem would be getting bored.

People have such a grim outlook on sidar because of the word Shade.

Imagine a world were Mozart and Bethoven never died, where Michaelangelo was still painting ceilings, where Einstein was still kicking it. Hell, where Isaac Newton still held his chair.

What a fantastic place to live it would be if the great people never had to leave us. A place where knowledge did not constantly need to be re-learned from scratch with every generation for fear of it's loss forever. There's no limit to what immortality could do for humanity's social state. Imagine attending a political lecture by George Washington himself ffs. How can your imagination not be set on fire with all the possibilities for wonder?

But it would get very depressing when you ran out of things to do. The eventual fate of the Sidar could be mass suicide, because it was the only thing they hadn't tried yet. Of course, if they survive the Age of Rebirth and the next age, they'll probably invent quantum computers and nanotechnology etc. until they're practically omniscient and omnipotent, and transcend their biological forms. And then they can spend eternity in endless simulations of new worlds until they get bored of each one, and move on to a new one, never having to fear harm.

So yeah, it could be really good or really bad.

I'm putting my vote in for Really Good. If your worst problem is ennui, you still have all the time in the world to solve it.

I would risk it for the possibility of infinite worlds to explore and watch develop and subtly influence. It would be pretty good.

I wouldn't. I find manipulation as very fun (espescially of people) but endless worlds and endless manipulations would get infintly boring, and I would send myself to Arwan.

Elohim is definelty a keeper.

Endless new, unimaginable worlds! Curiosity would drive me through. I love ancient cultures, and the way races change and develop over time and how everything in a constant flux, ever-evolving subtly into something new. The way all these tiny changes (the first person to figue out clay could be made into a jar, or the first group of homo sapiens to need to move away from their group and head across Africa) influence the rest of history in such a massive way is so awing.
Incidentally, I do want to be a historical linguist. ;)

The people who choose to become Sidar, are extremely cerebral (remember, they live most pleasures of the flesh behind). I imagine it would be hard for them to get "bored" within a reasonable (say, 1000 years) amount of time. They could explore one project to its extreme, then do something new.

I'd love to be a Sidar - even killing myself as a result of boredom after thousands of years of pursuing any project that catches my fancy is better than most alternatives.

Now that I think about it... It's the perfect choice! Get trained as an Amurite, journey around a bit, stopping at the Grigori to pick up some of their philosophies, and then finally become a shade, so I can harness my magical powers and develop my philosophies for thousands of years!

Only problem will be theories regarding the things they've left behind. Still, imagine spending thousands of years gaining knowledge, knowledge, and pure knowledge! Then you could, when you feel you have nothing left to learn, journey around, educating creatures of the other races. It would take a very long time before I'd pay Arawn a visit.

Still, imagine spending thousands of years gaining knowledge, knowledge, and pure knowledge! The details of being a shade are a bit vague... do they really get a perfect memory? More likely the early decades or centuries fade from their minds, at least specifics. Also, I imagine the perspective of timelessness would tend to make the present seem less urgernt, with days and weeks passing without notice... anyway, I wouldn't assume it is completely without side effects.

That's why you start as a mage. Some spells should at least somewhat hinder the memory loss.

Yeah, I get bored easily enough in RL, and can miss the passing of entire months pretty easily. Being a shade is actually a nightmare for me.

There are other ways to become immortal in Erebus that just becoming a shade...A vampire could devote themselves to projects or knowledge just as easily as a shade could. Apparently they do to some extent as vampires can cast spells. Unlike shades they don't give up all the pleasure of the body. And if the vampires in the Age of Ice could live on only a few drops of blood, then they don't necessarily have to kill people to go on living...Do Erebusian vampires lose something morals by being a vampire, or is it that only immoral people become them? If so why can the Calabim become good? If one could be a vampire without being a monster, then I think I'd choose that over being a shade any day.

A vampire can act how ever he/she wants to. They don't have to be ruthless killing machines but that's usually what gets them "promoted" in the first place. But all in all no matter what they are like they still have to kill to survive.

Why do they have to though? Their pedia entry says that they lived through the Age of Ice by hunting to provide for humans, who in exchange gave them "a few drops of blood" I'm not sure if that's meant literally as a few drops of blood, or if it means one or two of the weakest members... If it's literal then they wouldn't have to kill, because losing a few drops of blood won't kill you. I don't know what Kael intended though, so i could quite easily be wrong

That pedia does sound like it means they could live without killing others, but it has elsewhere been stated that they don't actually feed on blood but on souls. It is more doubtful that they could feed on only a portion of one's soul and leave them healthy.

And if the vampires in the Age of Ice could live on only a few drops of blood, then they don't necessarily have to kill people to go on living...Do Erebusian vampires lose something morals by being a vampire, or is it that only immoral people become them? If so why can the Calabim become good? If one could be a vampire without being a monster, then I think I'd choose that over being a shade any day.

Reread Alexis's entry. Vampires explicitly consume the souls of normal humans to survive, which makes them worse than murderers. Granted, Flauros's entry has him leaving the victim alive for another aristocrat, but he also notes that he likes eating virgins right as they're defiled. I interpreted his entry to mean that he was eating a portion of her soul, which would explain why he tastes the flavor of an abstract concept like innocence (or maybe he's just a sadistic bastard. Probably both). I doubt that girl would have been able to live a normal life afterwards, even if she wasn't immediately finished off by a lesser noble.

Kael said that Alexis's first soul eating was a very crude, imperfect affair that was way, way before the vampires had perfected their feeding rituals. I don't think the vampires have to do that anymore, nor did they during the age of ice.

Doesn't the Sidar shadification process do some sort of irreversible damage to the person independent of the fact that they now can only die through violent means? Thought it rendered them physically incapable of really enjoying what they do, or something.

Basically Shades consume their own souls and Vampires consume the souls of their victims to gain immortality.

Kuriotates would be nice and infernal is just a bunch of demons so it shouldnt be nice.

I'd go for the Khazad. They've got craftmanship, and I'd do well as an apprentice and maybe even a master artisan there.

does that mean that a vampire could act like a ghost buster to a sidar shade?

Probably, that's why they hate them so much.

Wait, who said that they hated each other? The Sidar hate the undead, which FFH vamps aren't. And vampires just hate...?

Everyone. The Calabim are representative of the Body Sphere, and their patron deity is Aeron, God of Strength/Physical Rage. Hence they don't like those who treat others well.

I'm not sure that the Sidar hate the Calabim particularly, or that the Calabim hate the Sidar any more than they hate anyone else.

Vampires don't hate everyone. They love dwarves for instance. Especially with ketchup.

ba-da-bing!

Falamar ruled empire is fun, as OO speaker espessially, talking with overlords, drinking in inns, redistributing fresh mutated drowns, and all that with woman loving boss and fun atmosphere.

Except your body is turned into a vessel for the communication of the desires of the Overlords... I really don't think you'd be allowed much (if any) time for personal enjoyment, if your consciousness was spared at all.

Slvynn, you are aware that talking with incomprehensible Lovecraftian beings formed from the nightmares of a madman empowered by the nightmares of a comatose god who is himself being tortured by the chief servant of the god of madness... is not going to be a friendly, casual chat, right?

Don't listen to them Slvynn, sanity is overrated. :)

:P they also so ... not open-minded :D

Cool vampires eat souls rather than just blood. Ok, Flauros and Alexis will not run a nice place. But if I had to choose which empire to go on Erebus, hell if I was given the choice of going calabim or staying in front of my laptop, Calabim it is. Sure, I'd have to be pretty . .. .. .. .ing impressive to become a vampire and not a dinner but I say it is worth the risk. If I was consumed, my soul is gone. (It is gone, right?) So I don't exist. No chance of Hyborem personally torturing me. If I was given the gift, well read Flauros' pedia entry and you can guess what I am going to do.

And they wonder why calabim are my favorite civ ...

Don't listen to them Slvynn, sanity is overrated. :)

Well I lost mine long time ago, I never missed it either.

I've never lost my sanity.
It's behind the sofa:p

i would prefer
Sheaim-awesome science, no qualms about tests
Amurites-so much magic :mischief:
Luichirp-I'm a tinkerer at heart, i like inventing
Grigori-hey, I'm an atheist, and they won't burn me for that

Grigori-hey, I'm an atheist, and they won't burn me for that

Don't be so sure. In Erebus, you can prove that gods exist, and anyone who doubts that is sure to garner cries of "witch!" everywhere. Even the Grigori aren't completely accepting....

As for me, Luichirp all the way. Dwarves = cool, and as much as I'd like tons of gold to play with, the effort to get those tons isn't worth it. Let me play with golems.

Luchirp running Empyrean would be pretty good, as you'd be able to have the golems do the physical labour and such while you live in pleasant little bright communities. Maybe the Amurites as Empyrean too, so long as the religion took some of the edge off of their ruthlessness. Plus, a Govannon-trained Chalid could hold off armies all on his own!

Elohim or Malakim. A monastic life spent in contemplation, protecting sacred places, and beating down demons with a quaterstaff would a good one. Malakim would work too because of their devotion to the god of light and openness, and I like the desert. Luchirp for the same reason as everyone else but their buildings would be a bit short for me :) Elves before the civil war would be interesting since they have a government that incorporates good and evil factions.

Grigori are out, because going too far in the name of agnosticism is just as bad as going too far in the name of god. They might be the religion-free libertarian utopia that teenagers who just read Atlas Shrugged think of, but this is Fall From Heaven and I like to imagine a more evil Grigori :satan: The state is a personality cult focused on Cassiel. Immigrants come in to escape their own gods or empire, but once you arrive there you're only guaranteed the right to not believe in any god- or else. You might get lucky and happen to live in one of the potemkin villages along the borders where everyone frolics around all day to convince more people to immigrate. Heros, dragonslayers, and lunnotar get massively more rations or pay than anyone else and they could probably go on a rampage in the slums and get off with a slap on the wrist. Slavery is the punishment for going to church or owning religious icons, death for preaching. This is the country that would attack the Elohim while their army is on the other side of the continent helping the Bannor attack the Ashen Veil holy city.

Even if you're lucky enough to be a noble in the Calabim you have to eat souls and participate in their evil vampire aristocracy. I'm fit enough that Clan or Doviello might work out but even so that would be brutal. Sidar sound good but I'm not ready to give up the pleasures of the flesh just yet

Grigori are out, because going too far in the name of agnosticism is just as bad as going too far in the name of god. They might be the religion-free libertarian utopia that teenagers who just read Atlas Shrugged think of, but this is Fall From Heaven and I like to imagine a more evil Grigori :satan: The state is a personality cult focused on Cassiel. Immigrants come in to escape their own gods or empire, but once you arrive there you're only guaranteed the right to not believe in any god- or else. You might get lucky and happen to live in one of the potemkin villages along the borders where everyone frolics around all day to convince more people to immigrate. Heros, dragonslayers, and lunnotar get massively more rations or pay than anyone else and they could probably go on a rampage in the slums and get off with a slap on the wrist. Slavery is the punishment for going to church or owning religious icons, death for preaching. This is the country that would attack the Elohim while their army is on the other side of the continent helping the Bannor attack the Ashen Veil holy city.


That isn't true at all. Cassiel easily could act a a god, but he refuses to. He is ideologically opposed to being worshiped and would attempt to crush any cult built up around him if anyone tried to force others to follow it. Normally though, he'd discourage such actions though his own embarrassing behavior/public drunkenness. He set up a government in such a way that he would not have the power to control it. The Grigori military consists of voluntary, part time, poorly organized militias, who aren't well payed. Cassiel idealizes the yeoman farmer, and expects most the militiamen to be self sufficient. What payment they get comes from their local governments (the government is a rather feudal system where "feudal lords" are typically average farmers with no extra personal income, and the position is not hereditary), which I suppose could favor heroes and dragonslayers, but I don't think it has to, as they would be able to keep the fortunes they find in the dragons' lairs or win their money through gambling. Luonnatar are not supported by the government at all. Cassiel does not like the Luonnatar (much less pay them anything), even though he agrees with them on a lot of things, because he thinks they are fundamentally wrong in their notion that The One would want to be worshiped. The Grigori have freedom of religion and freedom to express your religious views, so long as no one ever uses force to impose these views on others. The Luonnatar are treated no differently than the followers of any other religion. Going to church, owning icons, and preaching are mocked, but never punished (although I imagine that church leaders teaching a prosperity gospel where those who give them their tithes are supposed to get some miracles in return would be prosecuted for fraud). The Grigori don't do anything to encourage immigration, they just don't prevent anyone who wants to live under their libertarian laws to come and join. They are not an especially greedy Randian society, as Cassiel recognized that that is the worship of the evil god Mammon. I've always considered the Grigori and the Elohim to be close allies. It seems to be that Immanuel Logos must be one of Cassiel's heroes, for abandoning his goddess and devoting his life to caring for the orphans of the godswar, regardless of what religion these orphans follow. The Grigori do not go out of their way to attack anyone, but would defend themselves against any invaders. While they would be quite likely to fight defensive wars against the Bannor, the Elohim just wouldn't act in a way that would give them any reason to fight them.


The biggest failing of the Grigori is that they really aren't practical or strong enough to survive a full scale attack from almost any other civ if they get caught up in an actual war. The problem with living in Grigori lands is that they probably won't stay Grigori all that long.

One more vote here for Kuriotates. Here's the conundrum:

Would you follow Order or Cult of the Dragon?

For some reason, I feel like Einoin Logos would run the best empire. Strong enough to defend his empire, but smart enough to know when war isn't worth the trouble, and peaceful enough that he wouldn't need conscripts for a crusade. Ethne the White doesn't seem quite as good a military leader, should it come to war (as it often will in Erebus). Then again, the Sandalphon offers quite a pleasant option as well; I'm not fond of those overly driven by passions, and prefer calm, rational individuals. The Sidar might be a wee bit too calm and rational, which is why they land second to the Elohim, but I could easily make myself a life there.

Except your body is turned into a vessel for the communication of the desires of the Overlords...

Hallowed are the Overlords! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_(Stargate))

It's not really clear exactly what entails the existance of a shade. I understand earthly pleasures are lost, but if you can still maintain a sense of self and purpose, it sounds like a perfect existance for me. Become immortal then wander the world for eternity. As technology advances, you expand your search for knowledge beyond Erebus (whether into alternate planes or into the great beyond). Even, going far beyond today's Erebus, you either evolve to god-like power, or download yourself into a computer wherein you have total control (a microverse wherein you are the god).

The problem is whether you can stomach it, whether a born mortal is (or can be made to be) cut out for an immortal existence. There's a possibility that your memory is simply too limited, and after a couple centuries you forget who you even are, spawning an unending cycle (if I can refer to that show in a philosophical example, see the Brunnen-G of the Lexx series). There's also the risk that an immortal - or immortal society - has no need for advancement or growth.

Failing the Sidar being 'my kind of immortality', I'd settle for the life of a Luichirp.

I'd have to go for Sidar...

Plenty of good reasons to pick plenty of other good civilizations, but the pros for the Sidar appeal to me greatly. :D

That isn't true at all. Cassiel easily could act a a god, but he refuses to. He is ideologically opposed to being worshiped and would attempt to crush any cult built up around him if anyone tried to force others to follow it. Normally though, he'd discourage such actions though his own embarrassing behavior/public drunkenness. He set up a government in such a way that he would not have the power to control it. The Grigori military consists of voluntary, part time, poorly organized militias, who aren't well payed. Cassiel idealizes the yeoman farmer, and expects most the militiamen to be self sufficient. What payment they get comes from their local governments (the government is a rather feudal system where "feudal lords" are typically average farmers with no extra personal income, and the position is not hereditary), which I suppose could favor heroes and dragonslayers, but I don't think it has to, as they would be able to keep the fortunes they find in the dragons' lairs or win their money through gambling. Luonnatar are not supported by the government at all. Cassiel does not like the Luonnatar (much less pay them anything), even though he agrees with them on a lot of things, because he thinks they are fundamentally wrong in their notion that The One would want to be worshiped. The Grigori have freedom of religion and freedom to express your religious views, so long as no one ever uses force to impose these views on others. The Luonnatar are treated no differently than the followers of any other religion. Going to church, owning icons, and preaching are mocked, but never punished (although I imagine that church leaders teaching a prosperity gospel where those who give them their tithes are supposed to get some miracles in return would be prosecuted for fraud). The Grigori don't do anything to encourage immigration, they just don't prevent anyone who wants to live under their libertarian laws to come and join. They are not an especially greedy Randian society, as Cassiel recognized that that is the worship of the evil god Mammon. I've always considered the Grigori and the Elohim to be close allies. It seems to be that Immanuel Logos must be one of Cassiel's heroes, for abandoning his goddess and devoting his life to caring for the orphans of the godswar, regardless of what religion these orphans follow. The Grigori do not go out of their way to attack anyone, but would defend themselves against any invaders. While they would be quite likely to fight defensive wars against the Bannor, the Elohim just wouldn't act in a way that would give them any reason to fight them.


The biggest failing of the Grigori is that they really aren't practical or strong enough to survive a full scale attack from almost any other civ if they get caught up in an actual war. The problem with living in Grigori lands is that they probably won't stay Grigori all that long.

I'd say their failing is related but somewhat different. Lack of or limited interference is very much a two-edged sword. It means that the government does not and could not cause much harm to the people, but it also means that its ability to keep others from causing harm is very much limited. People in the Grigori lands will enjoy few taxes (as a possibility, no permanent taxes at all, but rather war-time taxes and taxes gathered for specific needs) and a great degree of personal freedom; however, they would also suffer from all the problems that ended the Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the early Medieval free agrarian communities. Not only would it be basically impossible for them to have a professional military or a professional civil service (which they would have to develop to construct a large empire; I agree that this works all too well with that not being their goal in the first place) without going against the founding ideals, but protection against foreign invaders and domestic criminals would be increasingly complicated as those threats become more powerful and/or ingenious. Furthermore, prolonged warfare, natural disasters and other such catastrophies could irrevocably undermine the yeoman farmers, who are indeed the foundation of this society, and indeed lead to the development of feudalism with all the fun things that accompany it, like serfdom, feudal warfare and disintegration of what central authority actually exists. So without Cassiel's interference, the Grigori land will sooner or later turn into a collection of bickering principalities, where the feudals would very much retain Cassiel's ideals and Grigori freedoms inasmuch as they apply to themselves.

Mind you, nobody ever said that Cassiel absolutely can't ever interfere when something that goes directly against his ideals begins to transpire. ;) But a lasting agrarian democracy is more or less impossible to sustain. Possibly a system of limited, regulated feudalism might be the way out; urban republics, meanwhile, are more viable, but likely to disenfranchise the agrarian population to a far greater extent than the feudals on their own (not to mention evolve into oligarchies), and we Cassiel can't have that, now can he? And a meritocratic bureaucratic (think idealised China here, only with less humility and pomp) Grigori empire, while nice, will probably also clash with Cassiel's ideals. Then again, there might be something to that last thought, as long as it is accompanied by certain specific and immutable laws protected by Cassiel himself...

I hope Cassiel would allow me to teach about Jesus.

...somehow I doubt that the Luonnotar (incidentally, they might very well be the regulatory entity for the Grigori, in addition to their (anti)religious functions) remove entire religions from cities with a pat on the back and a kind word. They are not necessarily more (or less) ruthless than their religious counterparts, but whatever they do seems to be pretty effective, whether it is mass expulsion, public executions, lynchings or mere "deprogramming" (read: brainwashing).

As a whole the Grigori are rasied on the fact that "gods" exist but they view them as petulant children. After being indocdrinated with that its hard to turn to worship.

But remember that religions can spread into Grigori cities, its less likely than other civs but it can happen. Grigori people do occasionally convert to religions and Cassiel doesn't kill them for it (unlike what Basium would do to anyone worshipping the veil in his cities). Its just that Cassiel would never declare a state religion or stop teaching that the gods are wrong.

I'm pretty sure that its been said that Cassiel and the Grigori don't stop anyone from preaching, they just don't let them collect money from their followers.
EDIT: Found some backing, hoping for a lore monkey to jump in and give real answers, heh.

Would they allow money collected for helping the poor?

Calabim would be the worst. I really don't want to be human cattle, kthxbai.

If I wanted to continue an existence similar to "real life", then it would probably be the Kuriotates, and just hope that Cardith tries to keep me and the population happy with Fellowship trees rather than a tower of complancy and a lot of undead water-walkers. Cassiel and the Grigori as well for the reasons stated here. In a world where pretty much all the religions are rather fanatical, steering clear of it entirely would probably be the most "pleasant" way to live life.

But personally, I'd want to live under the Balserapths (call me crazy :lol:).

Streets paved with people dressed in all manner of unusual clothing. Carnivals at every turn (I assume that comes with Cotton Candy too, yum!). Once you get over the moral conflicts of finding enslavement sickening, you can enjoy both animal and human shows. You have Loki running around Entertaining and Inspiring you... when he isn't busy annoying the neighbours and bringing in a fresh batch of immigrants to Jubilee.

Even going to war is a dance-like show. Strange mutated creatures on one side, cheerfully painted Merrymen on the other side. At the front (or back, or side or above, you never know) you've got homicidal Harlequins dazzling the foe with all sorts of unconventional offence.... or the good old fashioned thwack them on the head really hard with a stick method. It depends what kind of Harlequin they are. At the very least you know they're going to make your first attacks a little quicker.

Your mages make a show of it too. The usual way of summoning beasts and spells isn't good enough for them. First, they'll bring a puppet into existence and then command their puppet to do the spell for them. And you have the very elite core of your army. Your very best champions, who after drilling a sword through their foe will happily take note of their foe's best abilities and put them into practice against the next opponent.

Even if you're marching to your death, it's got to be a more cheerful affair than marching to your death in a conventional manner. The only frustrating aspect is you're probably marching to your death because King Peppy saw a really nice hat in your neighbour's city and demands the army capture the city so that he can obtain it.

As for day-to-day life, Eldric IV said it in the most fun way:
As soon as you think you figure something out, the Belseraph reality would come crushing it. It is not "everything you know is wrong; black is white, up is down, short is long." That is contrariness and easy to grasp. Rather, it is "everything you know is flapjack; purple gravity, bird is employment, cthulhu fhtagn." (And yes, I found OO every time I play Belseraph.)
Real life is boring. It's why we play video-games :p Screw working hard for my position, getting by on my own talent and all those other things we're used to. Make Peppy (or Keelyn) smile and you'll probably get that upside down mansion Tyrs promised. Paint cows green to see if it increases their milk productivity and you'll probably upstage all the best advisors in the land.

Even if you end up in the slave cages, Beeri proved that if you're amusing enough you'll be let loose, and whilst he may speak in tongues, Perpentach won't go back on his word... it's just a matter of trying to translate what he said into normal-people words.

As for Keelyn, she doesn't seem too hard to amuse. If you're a Bard, play a really pretty song (on a Lyre perharps) and you'll be in her good books. If not... try to stay on the good side of her "friends".

And as Kael said:
sanity is overrated. :)
Also, I rambled on way more than I expected to when I entered this thread. Lore threads are fun, stimulate the imagination :)

I'm pretty sure that its been said that Cassiel and the Grigori don't stop anyone from preaching, they just don't let them collect money from their followers.
EDIT: Found some backing, hoping for a lore monkey to jump in and give real answers, heh.

That's all good and fine, but how does the Luonnotar inquisition work? Is it along the lines of redoctrination/reeducation for those who have fallen into the error of god-worship? Or do they just preach and preach and preach until everybody in the city deconverts just to shut them up? :p

And I definitely agree that the Agnostic trait is a misnomer. Technically, it should be Antitheistic, since its bearers are actively opposing the gods (in Auric's case, all the other gods).

Or do they just preach and preach and preach until everybody in the city deconverts just to shut them up?

Precisely. Further more, no one can do anything about it since the gods are scared shitless about it so they won't send a balor to shut 'em up.

I would like to live in:Elohim,Calm and Peaceful;Kuriotates,Diverse and Powerful;Amurites,Becasue I could control magic;Lanun,'Cause I could get me some Booty!;Grigori,Because I would have the freedom to not worship a religion and the Illians,If they do start the 2nd age of Ice,I want to be one the winning side.

I would'nt like to live in:Any evil land other than Illians or the Mercurians.

I would probably pick Grigori.
I just feel like living there would be the best. I know they dont have much of a military, but I enjoy helping others, so I would have the opportunity to do so, wether it be from farming, defending the town I live in, or whatever else.Plus, Religion INEVITABLY leads to conflict and to be free from it in day to day life (except when the Bannor come in and stomp on everyone for not beleiving in order, or Perpentach has me turned into a zombie because he likes my hat) would be nice.
The Kurioates (or however its spelt) would be another good choice, if only to wander the spawling metropolisis, seeing the wonders that bringing all races together creates.
Lanun would be awesome, I'd finally meet Falamar and Guybrush! :D

As for worst, it depends.
If you fear the unkown and like to be able to control things, Perpentach and his clowns imediately become a horrible choice. I would NEVER want to live in their lands, because slavery sickens me. But fighting a war over a fancy hat would be nice :crazyeye:.
Calabim would be bad if you were not noblilty / vampire. Prettey much just human cattle.
Following Overlords or Ashen Veil would probably result in becoming a zombie or being sacraficed, both not very nice.
Living in Svartalfar would be horrible, as you would constantly be jumping at shadows and watching for someone trying to put a knife in your back.

...Living in Svartalfar would be horrible, as you would constantly be jumping at shadows and watching for someone trying to put a knife in your back.

I've always thought of the Svartalfar as more xenophobic then anything else. They have no problem with slaughtering Ljosalfar, and backstabbing every filthy non-Elf in Erebus. But spilling the blood of a fellow Svartalfar? Not without good reason!
Although the Svartalfar definition of "good reason" might be pretty loose. It wouldn't include "because I want what you have," unless "I" was Faeryl Viconia, but it would certainly include "speaking out against the Winter Court."

best: svartalfar. faeryl is hot.

What could I possibly say. :)