Has there been any mention of trolls in FFH? I've got an idea to run past the developers, but I'd like to know what's already there first.

The Orc clan has trolls as cavalry units AFAIK.

Not exactly; the CoE use Ogres as cavalry (different monster)

Never heard anyone mention trolls so far. Which incarnation are you thinking of? Lives under a Bridge? Regenerates, even from the dead, unless you use fire? Posts annoying junk on the Message Boards (we do have a few of those from time to time ;))?

I'm not sure that I really see a niche for them to fit into right at present, but I guess it would depend on precisely what design you have in mind for them.

As for pitching the idea to the Dev Team, they have already stated that the chances of a new leader are pretty slim, so I am thinking the chances of an entirely new Civ are nil. Plus there is the 3/7/21 symmetry they have going on, and it is already sitting at 21 Civs. However, you can probably garner support for a Mod-Mod to add them in as an option (see the Lizardman thread for ideas on how to start a semi-rabid fanbase).

I was thinking about the Kuriotates, how their multiracial society has currently got just 3 members (and that's if you count Lamias), and how perhaps ogre-sized trolls (or some sort of giant) could replace the War Elephant for them. Trolls are just about the only major fantasy people not in FFH that don't violate the princess rule ;)

I was thinking about the Kuriotates, how their multiracial society has currently got just 3 members (and that's if you count Lamias), and how perhaps ogre-sized trolls (or some sort of giant) could replace the War Elephant for them. Trolls are just about the only major fantasy people not in FFH that don't violate the princess rule ;)

Technically, they've got five: Humans, lamias, centaurs, either elves or dwarves (depending on religion), and dragons. ;)

I agree, though, that they could state to be more racially diverse.

I do wish the Kuriorates had nymph recon lines, and Trolls for their late mounted branch. However, are Trolls not generally evil? If anything they would fit with the Clan.

Well, Clan already have Ogres for their Mounted units. Besides, thinking Trolls are Evil is just another sign of oppression by "The Man," and explains why only the Kuriotates will employ them as honest citizens ;)

I don't like the idea of Trolls for the Kuriotates, but I wouldn't mind seeing nymphs for recon units and Dryads for Druids.

Trolls won't be availible until construction, when you can build bridges for them to hide under.

If you ever read dragon bone chair from Tad Williams you would know that there are only 1 m big trolls that are actually intelligent. Those would fit nicely for Kuriates as recon line.

Trolls aren't always evil in fantasy (or too stupid, for that matter.) the Jotuns of Norse mythology aren't stupid, and theough they fight against the gods, they sometimes interact and intermarry, and party together.

And for Kurio war elephants, we could have a more intelligent breed of Giants. Not all giants are stupid hill giants. (think narnia: stupid giants, and then the "gentle" giants of Harafng)

Smaller trolls are usually depicted as very cunning.

Giants as Kurio war elephant UUs could be nice, but I'd imagine the more intelligent "gentle giants" wouldn't use the hill giant model. A more human like model would probably be better.

Not sure about giving them Giants as their War Elephant Replacement. You would expect a Giant to be able to bombard, just like a Hill Giant can. And granting Bombardment to a War Elephant replacement seems a little bit too much of an improvement.

But then again, it could be balanced out by not being able to withdraw, and giving War Elephant's Collateral Damage capability (don't know why they don't have any as it is).

Fall from Heaven is thematically based on a long running Dungeons and Dragons game that Kael ran. Within canonical DnD, trolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) are giants (9ft tall and 500lbs according to the Monster Manual) who are always hungry, aggressive and reckless in combat because they regenerate from all wounds not caused by fire or acid (or starvation or asphyxiation, but those rarely come up). Decapitation, falling off a 500ft cliff, being dismembered and so on are only temporary annoyances for a DnD troll. They are only as intelligent as griffons, elementals or hell hounds (intelligence 6 versus the average human intelligence of 10 or the animal intelligence of 2).

Rigidly translating that into FFH terms, Trolls should probably heal fully between combats (since each turn representing at least a day, if not longer, and a troll heals completely in 78 seconds) and automatically flee from any lost combat (like Loki) where the opponent doesn't have 1 or more points of Fire Strength. Less rigidly (with more care for game balance) a troll should start with March, an innately higher health recovery rate, no ability to use weapons since trolls are all about rending with their claws, and possibly starting with the shock promotion to represent their insanely high damage output in melee (outstripping that of any other Giant (stone, cloud, fire or hill) or an adult dragon of any variety).

Normally I'd make the troll a barbarian like the Hill Giants but if I had to place them in the tech tree of some faction I'd make them the Immortal for Clan of Embers as this helps convey their nigh-unkillable physiology. It'd be a bit weird for a high level orc unit to upgrade to a troll unless you write in some sort of transformative ritual in the flavor text. That and having a unit that fears fire working for the Clan seems a little odd. Still, Eberus is not Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or Eberon (the "normal" settings for DnD) so if Kael or Nikis-Knight say Trolls are different in this world then the Monster Manual can be ignored completely.

and possibly starting with the shock promotion to represent their insanely high damage output in melee (outstripping that of any other Giant (stone, cloud, fire or hill) or an adult dragon of any variety)
Not even close. Assuming each hit with every attack, a troll does 1 less point of damage than a stone giant on average. But the giant has 1) a better attack bonus and 2) Power Attack. A hill giant also has a better attack bonus and Power Attack, so it will also deal more damage on average than a troll (especially when you remove the assumption that each will always get a full attack and hit with all attacks).

Given the game is called Dungeons & Dragons, I doubt I have to go into how much damage an adult dragon can do, in melee, without spells or breath weapon, even amongst the weaker types (such as black and white). Suffice to say, trolls are not in the same league.

Alright, I will confess to hyperbole. An adult, gold dragon using just a full attack (bite, two claws, two wing attacks and a tail slap) does an average of 84 damage (20, 12 each, 9.5 each and 23 damage respectively). With breath weapon it gets ridiculous and the comparison becomes even more tenuous. My bad.

A Stone Giant gets two attacks with a great club for 2d8 + 12, resulting in 42 damage on average (not including power attack). A troll (two claws, a bite and rending) does 35.5 damage on average (9.5 each, 6.5 and 16 damage respectively), putting it behind slightly and you are right that a Stone Giant can power attack and still be more likely to hit.

What distinguishes a troll is not it's overall damage potential when compared to every other monster in the MM. What distinguishes a troll is the fact that it's a CR 5 monster with 6 hit-dice which can do 35.5 damage on average. A stone giant is a CR 8 with 14 hit dice (and as such 8 levels more hit points, base attack bonus and feats). If scaled the troll is more lethal per CR and the troll is basically the most efficient close-range killing machine in a Deadliness to Hit-Dice ratio. That's why it'd start with shock.

Technically, they've got five: Humans, lamias, centaurs, either elves or dwarves (depending on religion), and dragons. ;)

I agree, though, that they could state to be more racially diverse.

Make that dragon (singular) ;)

I definitely agree with the idea to let them start with the March promotion, but as for putting trolls in the Clan, well CoE already have goblins, lizardmen and ogres as well as orcs, I wouldn't want to make them more multiracial than the Kurios ;) plus they kind of tread on the ogres' toes in CoE, it starts to seem a little too much like Eberron's Droaam (let's put all the 'monster races' in one country for organisational purposes) :p

Xienwolf definitely explains better than me why I thought they would go with the Kuriotates, I was particularly thinking of this paragraph from the civilopedia:

"For the Kuriotates don't much care who you as long as you have something meaningful to offer to the nation as a whole. The Kuriotates' particularly positive relationship to the non-human species of Erebus dates back to the very beginnings of the confederation, when a small group of Centaurs aided Cardith Lorda in his rise to power. Other creatures, attracted by the special power they detect in the boy king, have since flocked to the Kuriotate banner, escaping marginalization or even persecution in other parts of the world."

Just FYI - there is a reference to trolls in the pedia text for the Svartalfar hero Alazkan-
"They moved slowly through the forest. A small punitive expedition, intent on burning a few trees, raping a few Svartalfar women, skinning a handful of trolls."

Probably not much help in the context of this discussion, but it's nice to know they are there somewhere.

A couple of reference points:

Hill Giant: Str 7
Ogre: Str 8
Stoneskin Ogre: Str 13/17
War Elephant: Str 15

Man...Hill Giants are pansies ;)

Looks like there is room for a Trolgre at Str 10.

How about a Svartalfar replacment for Champions. The Svaralfar are generally not very strong, so a Troll or two among their ranks would be helpful. And to prevent interspecies upgrading (elf to troll), you could make the unit have a troll in the center with two svaralfar swordsman on the sides guarding the troll's flanks.

Yeah I like the idea of the svartalfar manipulating the less intelligent races.

As a counterpoint, why not both? You could have trolls working for the Svartalfar, manipulated into doing what they are told, and those who have fled rule by the dark elves to the lands of the Kuriotates as refugees...

On that account I think there should be a bit of more "exoticness" anyway, and also that "upgrade-feeling" you get currently from normal units.

Example: Ljosalfar (spelling?):

warrior > archer > longbows > flurrys

I've played a bit of DnD myself and would rank the "Giant Races" the following way (from least to most powerful): Ogres > Trolls > lesser Giants > "higher" Giants. By "higher" Giants I'm thinking Storm Giants and such.

However I think there should be some kind of "Giant" for various Civs:

Svartalfar: Trolls, Hill Giants
Ljosalfar: Forest Giants (these exist for DnD 3.5e and resemble giant elves)
Clan of Embers: Fire Giants (they follow a "fire theme" right?), Ogres can be the earliest "Giants" available.
Illian: Frost Giants (Wilboman could be some sort of Chieftain)
Doviello: Trolls, Hill Giants

The more "traditional" "human only" civs would get high-level cavalary, siege engines and such instead of giants. Also, just as the various Cavalary and siege engines get upgraded versions during the game, the Giants should get upgraded versions like "Hill Giant in loin cloth with a Club" advancing to "Hill Giant in Leather Armor with a Sword"

I'm a big fan of the Pact of Nilhorn simply because I like the Giants, so my vote is definately for more Giants :goodjob: .

Frost Giants in FfH are basicly living seige engines created by Mulcarn. They are barely sentient and made out of living ice. They have no connection to other giants.

When exactly did war elephants have 15 strength? Ever since I started playing FfH2 (aka 0.32l) they have been worthless 8 strength units who can't really do . .. .. .. .. But elephants are huge and strong, they should have higher combat ability as well as collateral damage.

That's a lot of art work contemplated here! IANAA (I an not an artist). I think the art team is a bit behind in some areas.

When exactly did war elephants have 15 strength? Ever since I started playing FfH2 (aka 0.32l) they have been worthless 8 strength units who can't really do . .. .. .. .. But elephants are huge and strong, they should have higher combat ability as well as collateral damage.

Elephants used to be very strong in Light and Fire, at which point their tech requirements were on the level of Omniscience.

When exactly did war elephants have 15 strength? Ever since I started playing FfH2 (aka 0.32l) they have been worthless 8 strength units who can't really do . .. .. .. .. But elephants are huge and strong, they should have higher combat ability as well as collateral damage.

In RL war elephants were very ineffective in combat, especially if the enemy had a few pigs handy. But for dark fantasy- I could see how Domesticate Elephants used to be the most expensive tech.

In RL war elephants were very ineffective in combat, especially if the enemy had a few pigs handy. But for dark fantasy- I could see how Domesticate Elephants used to be the most expensive tech.

Not quite true. Some armies used them effectively, but elephants were hard to train, harder to maintain, and not widely available. They were pretty useful against cavalry, but against a well-trained and experienced infantry they were pretty much worthless (see Rome vs. Carthage, rounds 1, 2, and 3).

"had a few pigs handy"? Now I have never heard of this one, how would this matter? Did they loose them and cause the elephants to panic? (they could have used mice for that j/k ;) )

I've heard about horses getting freaked out by camels due to not being used to the smell, maybe the same is true for elephants and pigs.. and pigs are probably quite a lot smellier than camels :D

The Romans used to set pigs on fire when fighting elephants. They'd light them up, let them go, and watch the elephants run away. No BS, I swear...

Now that would be one hell of a victory BBQ!!!! mmmmmm Bar B Que