yes but its only gonna be 5 threads so it isnt going to take up much sapce also it needs to at the top in case anyone wants to add anything

Shaitan: I was just thinking of maybe another sticky thread. Another poll index. Theirs no point in filling the poll sub-forum with RPG polls when it should be used for the actually game polls. OF course I'm putting this to your proposal:

Do you think it will be alright if the RPG polls go in the sub-forum?

Originally posted by BCLG100
yes but its only gonna be 5 threads so it isnt going to take up much sapce also it needs to at the top in case anyone wants to add anything

As/if things get bigger their will be more departments which will mean more sticky threads. Also in the first demogame I proposed to take some of the sticky threads in the citizens forums out.(which their was 11 I believe)Now for some math:

3 Index threads
1 Main office thread
1 voulanteer thread
1 poll index thread (possibly)
5 department threads

=

11 sticky threads.

yes and i dont see the problem with that they can all fit on the same screen and the threads which arnt that important will be the ones which fall to the bottom of the sticky line because if their that important then they will be updated a lot so the most important threads will be seen at the top and the threads which dont get updated that much but are still importent will still stay there their not gonna go onto the next page

also i think is a good idea to have them there i will keep mine up near the top but i can say that for other people and people might wanna look at the things there so they can add to them and how can they do that with it on page 3 or summin

Originally posted by Strider
Shaitan: I was just thinking of maybe another sticky thread. Another poll index. Theirs no point in filling the poll sub-forum with RPG polls when it should be used for the actually game polls. OF course I'm putting this to your proposal:

Do you think it will be alright if the RPG polls go in the sub-forum?
Polls are polls are polls. With proper registry use there is no danger of overusing the poll forum. It may also help to catch the eye of folks not normally attracted to the RPG aspects of the game. The RPG forum is also going to be a busy place and doesn't need the added burden of polls there.

Originally posted by Shaitan

Polls are polls are polls. With proper registry use there is no danger of overusing the poll forum. It may also help to catch the eye of folks not normally attracted to the RPG aspects of the game. The RPG forum is also going to be a busy place and doesn't need the added burden of polls there.

Ok.... Just an Idea

Also BCLG..... I'll think about it.

so is strider a vice mod thing now?

also strider you forgot a departement in your rules well 2 really
entertainement and smugglers also in the thank yous you missed of Zarn and not sure bout Almightyjosh

Originally posted by BCLG100
so is strider a vice mod thing now?

No, he is not a mod. He is getting some leaway as he organizes the RPG.

oh right okay then just wondering

Here's what I'm thinking for the RPG sub-forum layout:

1) Index threads
2) Voulanteer thread
3) The Main demogame rpg thread (13 page one....)
4) The Bank (an important thread)
5) Demogame RPG Main office thread (will hold links to all Demogame RPG business's(not personal business's)

All of these will be sticky.

Does the main thread really need to be sticky once we're up and running? It's essentially the planning and building thread. The applicable parts have been (or are being) taken out and put into functional threads.

Originally posted by Shaitan
Does the main thread really need to be sticky once we're up and running? It's essentially the planning and building thread. The applicable parts have been (or are being) taken out and put into functional threads.

No it does not. It can be unsticked till we get everything up and moving, but it does need to be sticky till then.

Originally posted by Strider


No it does not. It can be unsticked till we get everything up and moving, but it does need to be sticky till then.
Gotcha ;)

This is a proposed expansion/clarification of the rules for private businesses.

Private businesses cost money to start up. The two basic costs in this simple system are material purchases and legal expenses. Material costs represent offices, stores, manufacturing centers, etc. The money spent on these become assets and can be sold to another player or liquidated at 50% of their original cost. Legal expenses represent bribes, kickbacks, hush money...er...i mean fees for licensing, etc. This money cannot be recovered.

Both of these need to be based somehow on the goods to be sold, so they will be applicable to all businesses in a fair manner. Legal expenses are the same no matter what the business does. Material costs will vary.

Base Legal startup expenses: 100 g

Base Material startup expenses
Heavy Manufacturing: 300 g
Light Manufacturing: 200 g
Resale: 100 g
Services: 50 g

Heavy manufacturing is things like vehicles, construction equipment, ships, etc. Light manufacturing includes trades (tanner, bowyer, textiles, blacksmith, etc.). Resale is the traditional store or market. Services are where actual goods are not exchanged but a value is provided through service. Manufacturers cannot sell to the public, only through resellers. If a manufacturer wants to also be a sales center they need to pay the legal expenses to do so (but no additional material costs).

This startup cost is multiplied by a ROI factor. This ROI factor is based on the original price list. A trinket seller is not going to have to pay as much to get into business as the new Audi sales center.

ROI factor:
Avg cost 1 to 10: use base
Avg cost 11 to 50: base x2
Avg cost 51 to 100: base x4
Avg cost 101 to 150: base x6
etc...with Avg cost increasing by 50 and base increasing another x2.

Let's start up some businesses
Tibu Teak, a custom habidasher is going into business. They are a light manufacturer (they make their own fine clothing and create custom designed T-shirts). They also will be selling their own products. The average cost on their price list is 5 g so they will use the base material startup cost of 200g. They pay 100g for fees to manufacture their product and another 100g for fees to sell their products. Their total startup cost will be 400g.

Apro, Poe & Nuffin, attorneys at law want to open a practice. They don't make or sell anything, they simply provide a service. The average cost of their services is 35g. Their startup cost will be legal fees of 100g plus 100g for material startup costs (50g base for services x2 for their high prices - they need posh offices and a big aquarium in the lobby to attract high paying clients). So they are in business for 200g.

Making money
For simplicity, cost of goods sold (material, labor, etc...everything required to get the product finished) will be 1/2 of the wholesale price. For resellers, cost of doing business will be 1/2 of the sale price.

The exceptions will be when there is an official store with the same item or if there are competing private businesses. With competing private businesses the highest price will be paid by all businesses. That is, if Bob's spear shop sells spears for 10g and Al's spear shop sells them for 6g they both pay 5g (1/2 of the 10g highest price) for their stock. Al won't make much profit but he'll sell the pants off of Bob.

The second exception is when there is an official store with the item. In this case, the official store sets the price. Say there's an official store with spears for sale at 8g each. Al and Bob both will pay 4g for their spear stock (1/2 of 8g).

Note that this makes manufacturer/sellers slightly more efficient as they don't have a middle man. Their cost is 1/4 of their final sale price. Then again, they have a much higher initial startup cost.

Services have no cogs or codb. Sounds too good to be true? Actually, no. It is much harder to sell a service than physical goods. Services oriented businesses will not make the quantity of sales that other businesses do.

Maintenance
Thought you were done paying? Hahahahaha. You slay me!

No, there are more expenses. Each term an additional amount equal to 10% of the original material startup costs must be paid for building upkeep, material replacement, etc.

Moving up
So what stops a business from issuing a weak original price list and then just jacking up the prices when they're in business? Moving up charges!

The average price on a price list cannot go to the next level ROI factor until new material costs have been paid. The cost paid is their base cost x2 for each level the average will go up.

G.A.A.P.
Somebody needs to be in charge of watching prices. Jet planes cannot be sold for 100g if that's what a house costs on the official lists. Price gouging and fixing are easily corrected by adding items to the official price lists. Nobody's going to sell that jet for 100g when it's on the official list at 5000g (and will thusly cost them 2500g to get from their suppliers).

Loans
These will be necessary for any business to start up at the beginning of the game and will also be desirable throughout the game. Loans for assets (material startup costs) have a 5% per term interest and must be paid back in 4 terms. Signature loans (for legal startup costs) have a 10% per term interest and must be paid back in 3 terms.

Selling the shop
Businesses can be sold or liquidated. When liquidated, 50% of the material startup costs are returned to the seller. If sold to another private owner the price is negotiated. The buyer will then need to pay normal legal startup fees.


Comments?

I love the whole idea as long as I don't have to track it.

Pretty much explains why my wife does the taxes....

Originally posted by Shaitan
This is a proposed expansion/clarification of the rules for private businesses.

Private businesses cost money to start up. The two basic costs in this simple system are material purchases and legal expenses. Material costs represent offices, stores, manufacturing centers, etc. The money spent on these become assets and can be sold to another player or liquidated at 50% of their original cost. Legal expenses represent bribes, kickbacks, hush money...er...i mean fees for licensing, etc. This money cannot be recovered.

Both of these need to be based somehow on the goods to be sold, so they will be applicable to all businesses in a fair manner. Legal expenses are the same no matter what the business does. Material costs will vary.

Base Legal startup expenses: 100 g

Base Material startup expenses
Heavy Manufacturing: 300 g
Light Manufacturing: 200 g
Resale: 100 g
Services: 50 g

Heavy manufacturing is things like vehicles, construction equipment, ships, etc. Light manufacturing includes trades (tanner, bowyer, textiles, blacksmith, etc.). Resale is the traditional store or market. Services are where actual goods are not exchanged but a value is provided through service. Manufacturers cannot sell to the public, only through resellers. If a manufacturer wants to also be a sales center they need to pay the legal expenses to do so (but no additional material costs).

This startup cost is multiplied by a ROI factor. This ROI factor is based on the original price list. A trinket seller is not going to have to pay as much to get into business as the new Audi sales center.

ROI factor:
Avg cost 1 to 10: use base
Avg cost 11 to 50: base x2
Avg cost 51 to 100: base x4
Avg cost 101 to 150: base x6
etc...with Avg cost increasing by 50 and base increasing another x2.

Let's start up some businesses
Tibu Teak, a custom habidasher is going into business. They are a light manufacturer (they make their own fine clothing and create custom designed T-shirts). They also will be selling their own products. The average cost on their price list is 5 g so they will use the base material startup cost of 200g. They pay 100g for fees to manufacture their product and another 100g for fees to sell their products. Their total startup cost will be 400g.

Apro, Poe & Nuffin, attorneys at law want to open a practice. They don't make or sell anything, they simply provide a service. The average cost of their services is 35g. Their startup cost will be legal fees of 100g plus 100g for material startup costs (50g base for services x2 for their high prices - they need posh offices and a big aquarium in the lobby to attract high paying clients). So they are in business for 200g.

Making money
For simplicity, cost of goods sold (material, labor, etc...everything required to get the product finished) will be 1/2 of the wholesale price. For resellers, cost of doing business will be 1/2 of the sale price.

The exceptions will be when there is an official store with the same item or if there are competing private businesses. With competing private businesses the highest price will be paid by all businesses. That is, if Bob's spear shop sells spears for 10g and Al's spear shop sells them for 6g they both pay 5g (1/2 of the 10g highest price) for their stock. Al won't make much profit but he'll sell the pants off of Bob.

The second exception is when there is an official store with the item. In this case, the official store sets the price. Say there's an official store with spears for sale at 8g each. Al and Bob both will pay 4g for their spear stock (1/2 of 8g).

Note that this makes manufacturer/sellers slightly more efficient as they don't have a middle man. Their cost is 1/4 of their final sale price. Then again, they have a much higher initial startup cost.

Services have no cogs or codb. Sounds too good to be true? Actually, no. It is much harder to sell a service than physical goods. Services oriented businesses will not make the quantity of sales that other businesses do.

Maintenance
Thought you were done paying? Hahahahaha. You slay me!

No, there are more expenses. Each term an additional amount equal to 10% of the original material startup costs must be paid for building upkeep, material replacement, etc.

Moving up
So what stops a business from issuing a weak original price list and then just jacking up the prices when they're in business? Moving up charges!

The average price on a price list cannot go to the next level ROI factor until new material costs have been paid. The cost paid is their base cost x2 for each level the average will go up.

G.A.A.P.
Somebody needs to be in charge of watching prices. Jet planes cannot be sold for 100g if that's what a house costs on the official lists. Price gouging and fixing are easily corrected by adding items to the official price lists. Nobody's going to sell that jet for 100g when it's on the official list at 5000g (and will thusly cost them 2500g to get from their suppliers).

Loans
These will be necessary for any business to start up at the beginning of the game and will also be desirable throughout the game. Loans for assets (material startup costs) have a 5% per term interest and must be paid back in 4 terms. Signature loans (for legal startup costs) have a 10% per term interest and must be paid back in 3 terms.

Selling the shop
Businesses can be sold or liquidated. When liquidated, 50% of the material startup costs are returned to the seller. If sold to another private owner the price is negotiated. The buyer will then need to pay normal legal startup fees.


Comments?

Nice!!! :goodjob:

Also I want to ask you a question. Shaitan would you mind to be a temporary DemoGame RPG rule designer. We currently don't have one which means I have to do it which I don't have the head or the patience to do it.

strider there is me and civanator you could ask him or me to do it if shaitan is to busy modding an all

urgent request on payments and pensions:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=447037#post447037

Originally posted by Strider


Nice!!! :goodjob:

Also I want to ask you a question. Shaitan would you mind to be a temporary DemoGame RPG rule designer. We currently don't have one which means I have to do it which I don't have the head or the patience to do it.
I'm happy to help. I can't be a full timer but if you give me specific problem areas I will try to fit them into the grand scheme (like the private business proposal).

I also request the prison to be handled as office and the wards as office-deputies.
I dont know where to put this request though -(

I'd like to request that all new business's to be stopped, due to arguments in the law of the RPg about them. Thus I would like to request all are ceased from being made, and if possible put out of existence until this matter is settled.

Does any1 understand the rules about this? This someone could help me! Im lost.

@curufinwe - We can backtrack and figure business costs at a later date. Don't stifle people's excitement at this RPG birth.

@disorganizer - Which rules? The proposal I just put up?

i dont just understand how to put up a business. i need simple words, you know? im blond!

That rule set is just a proposal and needs some talking and a good analysis of the costs.

For right now, people are just starting up their businesses and doing "paper" transactions.

Originally posted by BCLG100
strider there is me and civanator you could ask him or me to do it if shaitan is to busy modding an all

Yeah.... I need ALL hands on deck with the rules.... We got to get this done quickly. (Otherwise the bank choas and everything else will continue.... I'm tired of answering questions :))

Originally posted by disorganizer
I also request the prison to be handled as office and the wards as office-deputies.
I dont know where to put this request though -(

I or any other demogame RPG offcial did not give the request to make the prison. We are also not up to handling yet another section. Maybe when thing's calm down, but till then it will stay run by the Citizens.

Originally posted by curufinwe
I'd like to request that all new business's to be stopped, due to arguments in the law of the RPg about them. Thus I would like to request all are ceased from being made, and if possible put out of existence until this matter is settled.

I agree with this. We need to stop all incoming personal business's till we get this all organized and the game set up. Once the game is running someone can make personal business's (all current one's can stay)

the prison will not be a business though. its a state matter and as such an office per definition (just a remark).
we will need something to punish people with. like if you rob someone (you could do by just stating so) and there will be no means to punish this one.
the prison offers a method to punish them...

and one other thing: maybe you guys should tend more to open discussion and maybe some polls about things. i didnt see one poll about the main points going here (like payments, housing, prices, workflow, taxes etc.). this is not a some-citizens show, you know ;-)

i would propose the following:
* closure of all businesses!
* implementation of payments which are discussed and polled at. also we should poll about the pensions.
* implementation of rules for businesses to which the citizen comply.
* implementaton of punishment system
* official start for private businesses.

unless these basic things are clear, all other discussion should be stopped (like real estate etc)

we should prefer a step-by-step approach, as this multiple step approach obviously was bad for the rpg

btw:
the rules are too complex! make it easy and simple! dont think too complicated.

btw2:
10gpt tax? this is crazy. with 10gpt base payment only officials would be able to run a business. this is against the sense of the game (to include more people). i would propose an ABSOLUTE MAX of 5gpt. preferred a 1gpt approach.

btw3:
we could ask the mods to close this subforum for new threads (if possible). we should then make thread for each topic rather than split conversation to multiple threads like now.

If we want to keep things simple enough to be enjoyable don't use a business tax. The cost of doing business can be assumed to cover tax mayments as well.

right. remember guys: we can still tune it later. we need a simple ruleset now to get people used to it.

i admit: i dont understand the rpg rules at all :-(

i have a personal bussness system myself:

the person ho is going to starts the buissness PM`s the item keeper(thats me) and tells him what items he is going to sell.the item keeper then PM`s the shop starter and says how much its going to cost to get one of the items in his stock(example longer down).then the shop owner posts his buget in a buissnes part of the bank.there can also be a tax each turn.simple and good:D


heres the example:

to get one (insert item here) in your stock will cost (insert price here).
to get one (insert item here) in your stock will cost (insert price here).
and so on

Here's what I want EVERYONE to do:

Civanator BCLG: Start working on how where going to do everything. Please try to make it as clear and as simple as possible. Please keep EVERYONE updated on what we plan on doing.

Stuck, Curufinwe(and I forget who the other banks asst. are Sorry): I need you guys to start coming up with the bank stuff. quickly. We need everything simple and clear as fast as possible.

Trader/Warrior: Your keeping track of what Items everyone has.... so I would suggest to start thinking about what will be the easiest way and give it to the organizers.

Website designers: I would suggest not doing about anything with the website. Were going to try to run it throuh pm's and posts for right now. We need everyone too get working on the game.

Shaitan: Also can you come up with the basic rules? I don't have the time with school... and we still don't have a rule designer.

Sorry dis, but we don't have time to poll everything. We will try to get this set up by the time the new game starts. And if we are to do this we don't have time. No one else is complaining about it. (but you)

website is up. i need almightys stuff. curu is my only assistant, but i need another.
were killing pensions. everyone starts with 100 gold.
ill make up a set of rules when i get back from staples (back 2 school shopping *groan*)

SAaM havnt visited the website recently but is my stuff up i didnt see it last time

i set up a stock exchange, and i know how to calculate stock prices, therefore, we have 1 thing up.

Shaitan: Also can you come up with the basic rules? I don't have the time with school... and we still don't have a rule designer.
I'll do what I can. Time is a bit crunched at the moment. I'll build a set of streamlined rules that can be fleshed out later. Something to get us organized and up and running.

i'm on it.

This was not at all easy. There are rules flying around all over the place in this forum and there doesn't seem to be very much central organization. A workable ruleset HAS to be centralized. If managers need a rule, they need to put it in the same place as all of the other rules.

The ruleset that follows takes everything that I could find and condenses it. It's much simpler than the many different things that were popping up. We can make things more detailed later but we need a floor to stand on before we paint the walls.

SALARY
Each citizen receives a salary of 10g per turn chat. A bonus is received for those holding additional jobs. Bonuses are cumulative:

+5 President

+4 Department Leader, Governor, Judiciary, Vice President, RPG Managers

+3 Deputy, Acting Governor

+2 Honored Citizens, High Unelected Positions (Chat Representative, Citizen Registry, Citizen Honors, Moderators, etc.)

+1 RPG Assistants, Low Unelected Positions (Mayors, Art Museum Curator, etc.)

BANKING
All accounts are kept at the Bank. Salaries are added to all accounts after each turn chat. All transactions must be posted at the bank with a link to the transaction post or a copy of the PM/email where the transaction occured. Only one party of the transaction should make the transaction post, to avoid confusion. If the transaction is made at a business, the business owner will post the transaction. All amounts are rounded to the nearest whole number. Private transactions should be posted immediately. Businesses may hold their transactions until the day of the next turn chat and post them all at once.

Loans
Simple loans are available from the bank at 5% or 10% interest. 5% loans are for the purchase of assets (items, stores, etc.). 10% loans are signature loans and can be taken for any reason. Loans are repaid over a maximum of 3 terms. Maximum loan amount is 1/2 of your expected income over the loan period. All calculations will be based on an expected 8 turn chats per term. Loan payments are deducted automatically from salaries. A citizen may have only 1 outstanding loan at a time. Loans may be paid off early but no refund of interest is given.

Example 1: Psychlo the Unsure is a governor and an honored citizen. He has a salary of 16 per turn chat: 10 (base) plus 4 (governor) plus 2 (honored citizen). In one term he has an expected income of 128. He can borrow 64g and pay it back in one term, 128g and pay it back in 2 terms or 192 and pay it back in 3 terms. He is starting a new business so needs as much as he can get. He borrows 192 at 5% interest (the money is going towards assets). The total he must pay back is 202g (192g + 10g interest). His payments will be 8g per turn chat until the 202g is paid (this will take about 3 terms).

Example 2: Shagrath the Incipid is a party animal. He wants to throw a blowout to celebrate an important military victory. He has no job besides being a citizen so makes 10g per turn chat. His expected income is 80g per term. He can borrow 40g to pay back in 1 term, 80g to pay back in 2 terms or 120g to pay back in 3 terms. He isn't drunk yet so restrains himself to a 1 term payback. He borrows 40g and will be paying back a total of 44g, that is 40g plus 4g interest. Shagrath is paying 10% interest as he's getting a signature loan. His payments are 6g per chat turn until the 44g is repaid (this will take about 1 term).

PRIVATE BUSINESSES
The first business that each citizen starts up during the game has no startup costs. Additional businesses may also be started but will cost money to get them up and running. Two payments are necessary; legal fees and place of business expenses. Legal fees are 100g for all businesses. Place of Business expenses include factories, sweat shops, stores, offices, etc. plus all of the equipment needed to get the business running. Manufacturers cannot sell to the public, only through resellers. If a manufacturer wants to also be a sales center they need to pay the legal expenses to do so (but no additional material costs). Place of Business startup expenses vary by business type:

Place of Business startup expenses
200g: Manufacturing (creating goods)
100g: Resale (selling goods)
50g: Services (no goods exchanged)

This startup cost is multiplied by Size and Expense factors. These factors are based on the original price list and represent the increased cost that a large organization will require to start up or that an expensive product line will cost. These factors increase the Place of Business startup expenses ONLY.

Size factor:
Personal business: no modifier
Private company: x2
Public company: x4
Corporation: x8

Expense factor
Avg cost 1 to 10: no modifier
Avg cost 11 to 50: x2
Avg cost 51 to 100: x4
Avg cost 101 to 200: x6
Avg cost 201 to 500: x8
Avg cost over 500: x10

Example 1: Tibu Teak, a custom habidasher is going into business. They are a light manufacturer (they make their own fine clothing and create custom designed T-shirts). They also will be selling their own products. They are a personal business and the average cost on their price list is 5g. They pay 100g for fees to manufacture and another 100g for fees to resell. Their Place of Business starup cost is 200g (manufacturing) with no size or expense modifiers. Their total startup cost will be 400g.

Example 2: Apro, Poe & Nuffin, attorneys at law want to open a practice. They don't make or sell anything, they simply provide a service. The average cost of their services is 35g. Their startup cost will be legal fees of 100g and 100g for Place of Business startup expenses (50g base x2 for their high prices - they need posh offices and a big aquarium in the lobby to attract high paying clients). So they are in business for 200g.

Supply
It is assumed that each business has enough material to supply their customers.

Making money
Prices and profit are determined by the sale price of goods and services. Manufacturers keep 1/2 of the money received for their product. The other 1/2 is assumed to go for upkeep of property, salaries for employees, rent, material costs, machinery, etc. Resellers keep 1/2 of the money received for sales. The other 1/2 is absorbed by the cost of doing business, just like manufacturers. Services keep 3/4 of the money received for services as they have a much lower cost of doing business.

A manufacturer/reseller (a company that makes and sells its own products) keeps 3/4 of the final sale price.

If an item is on the official price list, the wholesale cost of that item is fixed at 1/2 of the official sale price. The manufacturing cost of that item is fixed at 1/4 of the official sale price.

Example: Micron's Tiny Electonics sells a PDA for 6g. This means they make a profit of 3g per PDA sold. The PDA shows up on an official price list for 8g. Micron must now pay 4g for each PDA he sells (1/2 of the official price of 8g). He must either raise his prices or be content with only making 2g for each sale now.

Building Business
Businesses may grow and want to change to a different Size factor or Expense factor. Someone may wish to let partners into their personal business becoming a private company or may wish to go public. Similarly, changes in a product line may raise the average price on the price list into the next category. Before these things can be done the company must pay additional Place of Business expenses to get to the higher category. Simply take the normal Place of Business charge for that business and multiply by the difference to the next modifier.

Example 1: Tony's House of Lamb is a personal business. His normal Place of Business expense was 50g (Service). Tony wants to take on partners to raise capital. He will be going from Personal Business (no Size modifier) to Private Company (a x2 modifier). He must pay 100g to become a private company before taking on partners.

Example 2 : Smiling Bob's Discount War Machines sells previously enjoyed military vehicles. Bob's is a personal business that currently has a price list average of around 55. Bob has a line on new jet fighters which will raise his price list average to over 220g. Bob's normal Place of Business expense was 100g (Reseller). He is already in the x4 Expense factor. The Expense factor for a price list average of 220g is x8. Bob will need to cough up another 400g (100g base times 4, the difference between the original x4 category and the new x8 category) before adding the jet fighters to his product catalog.

Selling the shop
Businesses can be sold or liquidated. When liquidated, 50% of the Place of Business costs are returned to the seller. If sold to another private owner the price is negotiated. The buyer will then need to pay normal legal startup fees but will not have any Place of Business expenses.

How to get a licensed business open
Only licensed businesses can post transactions in the bank. As a result, only licensed businesses can make a profit of money or actually give items to a player.
Build a price list of all items that the business will sell.
Send this list, with a brief description of the business to the Price Manager.
The Price Manager will reply and tell you what your total startup costs will be. If your price list is seriously out of whack, the Price Manager will tell you what should be changed.
Secure your startup funds. If you need a loan, go to the Bank.
When your funds are secured, post a transaction at the Bank paying your startup fees.
The Price Manager will respond in the Bank thread with your certification to start up the business.
Post in the RPG Index & Registry thread with a link to your business, a one line description of your business and a link to the approving post from the Price Manager.

GOING BROKE
Overdraft Protection
A player's account can go into the negative by the amount of his regular paycheck. If he normally makes 10g per turn chat he can go to a -10 balance without penalty.

Auto loan coverage
If a player's account dips below their overdraft protection and they do not have an outstanding loan, and a signature loan would cover the bad debt, they will immediately be granted a signature loan for the bad balance on their account.

Bankruptcy
If a player exceeds all of the protections above they go bankrupt. The Bank Manager and Item Manager will disolve the player's assets (valuing them at 50% of original value) to pay off the bad debt. This will include ownership in businesses, any items owned and any other tangible RPG properties.

If the bankruptcy proceedings aren't sufficient to cover the debt the player's salary will be garnished (100%) until the debt is covered. While the salary is being garnished the player may not make any transactions.

POSITIONS
Game Manager: The Game Manager is responsible for the overall flow of the RPG game. He can take over the duties of any other manager at times of need (manager absent or manager is personally involved in a transaction).

Bank Manager: Responsible for running the Bank, recording transactions, tracking loans and loan repayment, etc.

Item Manager: Responsible for keeping official track of what items each player has.

Price Manager: Responsible for keeping the official price lists and checking that private businesses are figuring costs correctly when selling an item that is on the official list. Responsible for Official stores.

Each manager may hire as many assistants as required to handle their responsibilities. The 4 managers together may create or alter rules. A 3/4 majority is required to do so.

Managers are elected and serve and indeterminate length of time. A manager may be removed from office through a vote of no confidence. This is an open poll and requires a 2/3 majority to oust a manager.

*sigh*
again the error with the positions in the paytable:
+5 President
+4 Department Leader, Governor, Judiciary, Moderator, Vice President, RPG Manager
+3 Deputy, Acting Governor
+2 Honored Citizens, Chat Representative, Low Government Positions (Mayors, Office Heads, Ambassadors, Mayors)
+1 RPG Assistants, non-Government Positions (Office deputies, Attachees, Helpers, etc.)

This was discussed in the bank-thread lately. Please correct ;-)

Will the be official help for startups to calculate the startup- and maintenance-costs?

It wasn't an error, dis. I reorganized based on the relative authority and responsibility of the positions. There was a lot of conflicting and unrelated stuff to stick together and this was one of the things that got unconflicted. I'm interested to hear any particular argument for any switches.

The law offices of Apro, Poe & Nuffin have specialists in business law that could facilitate a business start-up.

it was discussed in the bank-tread. stuck as a mac said it was a typo by strider.

census office is definitely (like all offices) a GOVERNMENT position. with the rules you put up, the census office would be paid less than the leader of the cultural art museum, which is a almost-no-work-job. if we put non-government positions higher than the low-government positions, we pay the people with the most volunteer-work the least.
this is bad.

I didn't put non-government in at all. I broke it into High and Low unelected government positions. The two items I feel are debatable are mayors and RPG assistants being equivalent to high or low unelected government. Although you and some of the Asphynxian mayors did an excellent job in G1, the vast majority of mayors were esentially absentee landlords. For RPG assistants, we just don't know what's going to be required as far as the workload goes at this point.

im also against the +4gpt for moderators!
this is stupid and should not be.
it is the highest pay (almost) and you still can run for department positions! no way!
i will immediately start discussion on this topic and request holding of all payments until this discussion is closed.

as told so often before, it would have been better to bring this thing to open discussion BEFORE implementation. i prayed this for 1 month now, but nobody wanted to listen... there was plenty of time. now we have the mess!

HEY! Mods get an extra 4gpt? now tell me there is something wrong with that! :mad: that is unfair! Also disorganizer is right. There was an agreement with SAaM that mayors get 2gpt, not 1.
Also 200g for manufacturing is way too much. maybe 100g for manufacturing, 50g for resale and 25g for sevices.

can i be the price manager if these rules will be the real rules?

The startup costs were figured using a standard ROI formula. They do require that the business theory be viable. That is why the first business for each citizen is a free set up. Everybody will be able to get in on the action.

Can someone give me a reason why mayors should be +2? I said I thought this was debatable but no debate has been offered.

The mod payment was not my idea. However, in the overal scheme of paying a job based on its responsibilities and duties, is it unreasonable?

yes it is, cause that was given for certain reasons, and shouldn't be added to just 2 people for being mods.

I'm not understanding your logic, Civanator. Payment is supposed to be comensurate with the tasks and duties required for the job. That is the only reason that I am concerned with. How much do you think the mod job is worth?

discussion on payment:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30686
see reasons there.

shaitan: the problem is: the higher payment than 2gpt was denied to non-elected persons because they were... not elected.

to those i cound mods and the rpg-manager.

Now THAT I can understand.

Easy enough to fix for the RPG managers. We'll elect them. Indeterminate terms. They'll serve until ousted. I think they really deserve this as they are going to be VERY busy.

Mods will go down to +2. (I'll have to make my money the old fashioned way. hehehe)

can you repost in the discussion please? we should clear up this thread from unnecessary discussion ;-)
maybe we can get a compromise on those values there.

trader i think that jobs with me civanator stuck and strider but im not sure

Originally posted by disorganizer
can you repost in the discussion please? we should clear up this thread from unnecessary discussion ;-)
maybe we can get a compromise on those values there.
Er...this is the discussion thread for the RPG. Do you mean the Bank thread? Anything being discussed there should be redirected here.

no. the discussion link i posted ;-)
i opened a new discussion for the topic so people will se what is discussed.

I gotcha dis. Screaming children all about me are affecting my mental processes. Bare with me. ;)

Shaitan: could you clarify the polling thing? How will an open poll be handled? Why and open poll? I would prefer having a normal citizen poll and not to add another poll-type to the rules.
We also have no definition for electing a leader for unlimited time in the ruleset at the moment. If so, we would maybe also like to implement this for other positions, like mayors?

Open poll simply means there are no restrictions on voters. It would still be done as a normal citizen poll. I specified that so there can't be any complaints about participation level being higher than the regular RPGers.

These positions aren't demogame leaders. RPG managers are a different animal.

Mayors aren't in the rules. There are no specific rules for appointing them or getting rid of them. If there is a conflict then a standard poll can resolve it.

Modified mod salary per salary discussion. Added non-profit businesses (groups).

SALARY
Job bonuses
Each citizen receives a salary of 10g per turn chat. A bonus is received for those holding additional jobs. A player (except for moderators) may receive a bonus once for each level where they hold a job. Mods may receive only their base pay plus mod bonus.

+5 President

+4 Department Leader, Governor, Judiciary, Vice President, RPG Managers, Moderators

+3 Deputy, Acting Governor

+2 High Unelected Positions (Chat Representative, Citizen Registry, Citizen Honors, Office Heads, etc.)

+1 Low Unelected Positions (RPG Assistants, Mayors, Art Museum Curator, Office Assistants, etc.)

The RPG Managers will decide on the status of an individual position if it could fit into both the High and Low Unelected categories.

Example: Alphonse the Exhausted is a Department Leader, RPG Manager, Mayor and Art Museum Curator. He receives a salary of 10 (base) plus 4 (Dept Leader or RPG Manager) plus 1 (Mayor or Museum Curator) for a total of 15. He receives each pay bonus level once despite having two jobs in each pay level.

Honors Bonus
Every player (no exceptions) receives an additional +2 salary bonus for each citizen honor received.

BANKING
All accounts are kept at the Bank. Salaries are added to all accounts after each turn chat. All transactions must be posted at the bank with a link to the transaction post or a copy of the PM/email where the transaction occured. Only one party of the transaction should make the transaction post, to avoid confusion. If the transaction is made at a business, the business owner will post the transaction. All amounts are rounded to the nearest whole number. Private transactions should be posted immediately. Businesses may hold their transactions until the day of the next turn chat and post them all at once.

Loans
Simple loans are available from the bank at 5% or 10% interest. 5% loans are for the purchase of assets (items, stores, etc.). 10% loans are signature loans and can be taken for any reason. Loans are repaid over a maximum of 3 terms. Maximum loan amount is 1/2 of your expected income over the loan period. All calculations will be based on an expected 8 turn chats per term. Loan payments are deducted automatically from salaries. A citizen may have only 1 outstanding loan at a time. Loans may be paid off early but no refund of interest is given.

Example 1: Psychlo the Unsure is a governor and an honored citizen. He has a salary of 16 per turn chat: 10 (base) plus 4 (governor) plus 2 (honored citizen). In one term he has an expected income of 128. He can borrow 64g and pay it back in one term, 128g and pay it back in 2 terms or 192 and pay it back in 3 terms. He is starting a new business so needs as much as he can get. He borrows 192 at 5% interest (the money is going towards assets). The total he must pay back is 202g (192g + 10g interest). His payments will be 8g per turn chat until the 202g is paid (this will take about 3 terms).

Example 2: Shagrath the Incipid is a party animal. He wants to throw a blowout to celebrate an important military victory. He has no job besides being a citizen so makes 10g per turn chat. His expected income is 80g per term. He can borrow 40g to pay back in 1 term, 80g to pay back in 2 terms or 120g to pay back in 3 terms. He isn't drunk yet so restrains himself to a 1 term payback. He borrows 40g and will be paying back a total of 44g, that is 40g plus 4g interest. Shagrath is paying 10% interest as he's getting a signature loan. His payments are 6g per chat turn until the 44g is repaid (this will take about 1 term).

OFFICIAL BUSINESSES
These are business threads run by the Price Manager (or an Assistant) that sell goods at the official market price (as set or authorized by the Price Manager). They record all transactions to the bank at each turn chat. They do not record profits.

PRIVATE BUSINESSES
The first business that each citizen starts up during the game has no startup costs. Additional businesses may also be started but will cost money to get them up and running. Two payments are necessary; legal fees and place of business expenses. Legal fees are 100g for all businesses. Place of Business expenses include factories, sweat shops, stores, offices, etc. plus all of the equipment needed to get the business running. Manufacturers cannot sell to the public, only through resellers. If a manufacturer wants to also be a sales center they need to pay the legal expenses to do so (but no additional material costs). Place of Business startup expenses vary by business type:

Place of Business startup expenses
200g: Manufacturing (creating goods)
100g: Resale (selling goods)
50g: Services (no goods exchanged)
0g: Non-profit organizations (no goods or services exchanged)

This startup cost is multiplied by Size and Expense factors. These factors are based on the original price list and represent the increased cost that a large organization will require to start up or that an expensive product line will cost. These factors increase the Place of Business startup expenses ONLY.

Size factor:
Personal business: no modifier
Private company: x2
Public company: x4
Corporation: x8

Expense factor
Avg cost 1 to 10: no modifier
Avg cost 11 to 50: x2
Avg cost 51 to 100: x4
Avg cost 101 to 200: x6
Avg cost 201 to 500: x8
Avg cost over 500: x10

Example 1: Tibu Teak, a custom habidasher is going into business. They are a light manufacturer (they make their own fine clothing and create custom designed T-shirts). They also will be selling their own products. They are a personal business and the average cost on their price list is 5g. They pay 100g for fees to manufacture and another 100g for fees to resell. Their Place of Business starup cost is 200g (manufacturing) with no size or expense modifiers. Their total startup cost will be 400g.

Example 2: Apro, Poe & Nuffin, attorneys at law want to open a practice. They don't make or sell anything, they simply provide a service. The average cost of their services is 35g. Their startup cost will be legal fees of 100g and 100g for Place of Business startup expenses (50g base x2 for their high prices - they need posh offices and a big aquarium in the lobby to attract high paying clients). So they are in business for 200g.

Supply
It is assumed that each business has enough material to supply their customers.

Making money
Prices and profit are determined by the sale price of goods and services. Manufacturers keep 1/2 of the money received for their product. The other 1/2 is assumed to go for upkeep of property, salaries for employees, rent, material costs, machinery, etc. Resellers keep 1/2 of the money received for sales. The other 1/2 is absorbed by the cost of doing business, just like manufacturers. Services keep 3/4 of the money received for services as they have a much lower cost of doing business.

A manufacturer/reseller (a company that makes and sells its own products) keeps 3/4 of the final sale price.

If an item is on the official price list, the wholesale cost of that item is fixed at 1/2 of the official sale price. The manufacturing cost of that item is fixed at 1/4 of the official sale price.

Example: Micron's Tiny Electonics sells a PDA for 6g. This means they make a profit of 3g per PDA sold. The PDA shows up on an official price list for 8g. Micron must now pay 4g for each PDA he sells (1/2 of the official price of 8g). He must either raise his prices or be content with only making 2g for each sale now.

Building Business
Businesses may grow and want to change to a different Size factor or Expense factor. Someone may wish to let partners into their personal business becoming a private company or may wish to go public. Similarly, changes in a product line may raise the average price on the price list into the next category. Before these things can be done the company must pay additional Place of Business expenses to get to the higher category. Simply take the normal Place of Business charge for that business and multiply by the difference to the next modifier.

Example 1: Tony's House of Lamb is a personal business. His normal Place of Business expense was 50g (Service). Tony wants to take on partners to raise capital. He will be going from Personal Business (no Size modifier) to Private Company (a x2 modifier). He must pay 100g to become a private company before taking on partners.

Example 2 : Smiling Bob's Discount War Machines sells previously enjoyed military vehicles. Bob's is a personal business that currently has a price list average of around 55. Bob has a line on new jet fighters which will raise his price list average to over 220g. Bob's normal Place of Business expense was 100g (Reseller). He is already in the x4 Expense factor. The Expense factor for a price list average of 220g is x8. Bob will need to cough up another 400g (100g base times 4, the difference between the original x4 category and the new x8 category) before adding the jet fighters to his product catalog.

Selling the shop
Businesses can be sold or liquidated. When liquidated, 50% of the Place of Business costs are returned to the seller. If sold to another private owner the price is negotiated. The buyer will then need to pay normal legal startup fees but will not have any Place of Business expenses.

How to get a licensed business open
Only licensed businesses can post transactions in the bank. As a result, only licensed businesses can make a profit of money or actually give items to a player.
Build a price list of all items that the business will sell.
Send this list, with a brief description of the business to the Price Manager.
The Price Manager will reply and tell you what your total startup costs will be. If your price list is seriously out of whack, the Price Manager will tell you what should be changed.
Secure your startup funds. If you need a loan, go to the Bank.
When your funds are secured, post a transaction at the Bank paying your startup fees.
The Price Manager will respond in the Bank thread with your certification to start up the business.
Post in the RPG Index & Registry thread with a link to your business, a one line description of your business and a link to the approving post from the Price Manager.

GOING BROKE
Overdraft Protection
A player's account can go into the negative by the amount of his regular paycheck. If he normally makes 10g per turn chat he can go to a -10 balance without penalty.

Auto loan coverage
If a player's account dips below their overdraft protection and they do not have an outstanding loan, and a signature loan would cover the bad debt, they will immediately be granted a signature loan for the bad balance on their account.

Bankruptcy
If a player exceeds all of the protections above they go bankrupt. The Bank Manager and Item Manager will disolve the player's assets (valuing them at 50% of original value) to pay off the bad debt. This will include ownership in businesses, any items owned and any other tangible RPG properties.

If the bankruptcy proceedings aren't sufficient to cover the debt the player's salary will be garnished (100%) until the debt is covered. While the salary is being garnished the player may not make any transactions.

POSITIONS
Game Manager: The Game Manager is responsible for the overall flow of the RPG game. He can take over the duties of any other manager at times of need (manager absent or manager is personally involved in a transaction).

Bank Manager: Responsible for running the Bank, recording transactions, tracking loans and loan repayment, etc.

Item Manager: Responsible for keeping official track of what items each player has.

Price Manager: Responsible for keeping the official price lists and checking that private businesses are figuring costs correctly when selling an item that is on the official list. Responsible for Official stores.

Each manager may hire as many assistants as required to handle their responsibilities. The 4 managers together may create or alter rules. A 3/4 majority is required to do so.

Managers are elected and serve and indeterminate length of time. A manager may be removed from office through a vote of no confidence. This is an open poll and requires a 2/3 majority to oust a manager.

Right. Well. Let's get to it then shall we?

i think i am a game manager and a price manager

There is one of each management position. I'll poll for overall aproval of the rules and then switch to mod mode and get expedited elections going.

okay then im a sub game manager and organizer and price manager and helper oputerer and any other random stuff people ask me to do

Looks like the rules are starting to come together. ;) (Shaitan's favorite hobby!) Anyway, I think Strider and Stuck (and others who are working on the Demogame RPG Page) should put a Demogame RPG website suggestions thread to generate ideas for the site layout. There's already a directory waiting for the Demogame RPG in the Demogame Website.
www.civfanatics.net/~demogame/civ3/RPG
:D

@Shaitan:
maybe some addition:

+2 Honored Citizens, High Unelected Positions (Chat Representative, Office Heads, etc.)

+1 RPG Assistants, Low Unelected Positions (Mayors, Art Museum Curator, Office Helpers/Deputies, etc.)

i underlined the changes ;-)

this would clarify it, as all offices have a head (high positions) and helpers/deputies (log position). no need for specific examples here.

+1 RPG Assitants we are actually doing quite a bit of work some of us

office deputies also do some work ;-)

now another approach to the rpg-part:

we obviously have one leader->strider.

do we have offices? we could then have office heads (2-3 i propose for the 2-3 different mayor areas of work) and office deputies (bureau workers working for the 2-3 offices).

now what is the organigramm of the rpg-game?

I found a compromise solution to the cumulative bonuses/single bonus debate. Each player can receive a bonus level once. Bonuses will still accumulate but you get a single +1 for all of the +1 jobs, a single +2 for all of the +2 jobs, etc.

I also separated honors from the salary bonus scale. They apply and are cumulative regardless of any other factors.

@disorganizer - There are 4 RPG Manager positions. Strider will likely be elected as the first Game Manager. I can't think of anybody with the balls to run against him. The other managers are the Bank Manager, Item Manager and Price Manager.

I'm opening a nomination thread presently as well as an open debate thread. Self nominations only. Elections will go up tomorrow.

dis we already have office heads and shaitan we already worked out all the positions do we have to re orgainse them again after an election thing couldnt we just leave it the way it is till we have everything sorted
jobs as far as i know

Manager-Strider
Sub manager-me and civanator
Bank-stuck
item keeper-trader warrior
departement heads-me zarn almightyjosh and i think echecatl not sure
also probably other jobs there are also sub managers

so can we leave it the way it is for the time being as it would be really awkward to change oit now and might push it further behind sheduale

Originally posted by BCLG100
dis we already have office heads and shaitan we already worked out all the positions do we have to re orgainse them again after an election thing couldnt we just leave it the way it is till we have everything sorted
jobs as far as i know

Manager-Strider
Sub manager-me and civanator
Bank-stuck
item keeper-trader warrior
departement heads-me zarn almightyjosh and i think echecatl not sure
also probably other jobs there are also sub managers

so can we leave it the way it is for the time being as it would be really awkward to change oit now and might push it further behind sheduale
@BCLG100 - Yes, it is necessary for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, it's necessary to preserve the overall democratic policies of the game. It was also necessary to justify the salaries of the RPG managers. Those salaries are themselves more than justified by the work that will be required of the managers but there was too much opposition to leader-equivalent salaries without the positions being elected.

There was also a good bit of streamlining and simplification in the rules development. The complexity of the original setup was prohibitive. There are now 4 managers who can hire whatever help they need.

So the problems are mainly solved...
to summarize:
rpg-managers=leaders
rpg-officeheads=2gpt (like all office heads)
rpg-helpers=1gpt (like all office helpers).

now if we stick with the official naming, we can easily streamline our payment-plan:

+5 President
+4 Elected Leaders (Governor, Vice President, RPG Managers)
+3 Deputies of Leaders (Acting Governor, Department Deputies)
+2 High Unelected Positions (Chat Representative, Office Heads, Moderators, etc.)
+2 Honoured Citizen (per honour or honour rankup received)
+1 Low Unelected Positions (Mayors, Art Museum Curator, Office helpers/assistants/deputies, etc.)

But one question: Is an acting governor elected or running thru an acceptance poll? If yes, the 3gpt are ok, if not, he has to be moved to 2gpt for fairness.

Another idea to simplify rpg-roles:
The Main RPG-Manager (1) is put up for election. He can then appoint his Sub-Managers, which must run through acceptance polls.
The Sub-Managers will be at 3gpt, the main manager at 4gpt. But we will only have 1 election for the rpg-game.


This could simply be handled if we strictly use the RPG-Manager role as role of a "governor" of the RPG ;-)

This also includes he has to be elected termly like the other "governors". This also includes he cant take a second leader position!


Another approach:
We define the RPG as subset of the domestic department. The domestic leader appoints all positions and runs them unlimitedly thru acceptance polls. This will move those positions to 3gpt payment, but will clean out the conflicts with the ruleset ;-)
Or maybe even under the presidents office ;-)
Warning: This also means that the responsible department leader can throw out any rpg-manager and appoint new ones at will if he gets them thru an acceptance poll. This also means he/she has veto rights against all RPG decissions!

@dis - 4 elections aren't too bad. The managers survive based on their performance. If they louse it up the public can remove them at their displeasure.

We need to keep the RPG transparent to the demo game at large (or at least as close to transparent as possible) so there won't be any tying the RPG to a regular department.

Also, acting governors do have to be confirmed.

k' then. was just a thought ;-)
Maybe for v2 of the payments :-) Would be a nice way to include the RPG slightly into the rules and give it a rulebase in the game itself.

saitan pretty much everyone that joined did not do it so they could have higher gpt i didnt know we were getting paid
so i think we should wait until next term after we get it set up until we do electons at the moment it would mean teaching people new jobs and different things and the such like also it will cos mass confusion in everyone helping at the moment everything willl come to a standstill

BCLG100 - There have to be individual people in charge of the rules. I don't have the time to monitor this RPG full time. These people will be vested with the ability to complete the game tasks according to the game rules. We're a democracy so these high level people need to come from an election basis.

I seriously doubt we could get more confusion than there is at the moment.

well we can and its happening i think elections should have been held off till after we got it set up

In an effort to create some sense of order, this thread is being archived. Discussion on the demogame rules should be directed to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30868).