Maybe we could add a kind of RPG type thing... Players get money for jobs they do.. They by houses, food etc.

This could bring back or bring more citizens. Post your comments about it here.

we should then also put adds on rpg-sites ;-)

what to do with money:
for example, pay for moving your home.
you would have to pay for the distance you travel, and you will have to pay a kind of "tax" for moving to the city. the major of any city can set up a tax for moving there, which then goes to the city-fund. he can then pay ppl with this money (he can also put this to 0 if he likes to attract more ppl).
also, depending on the cash-input of the city in-game, your income get multiplied.
example: you have a income of 2g, and live in a city with 50gpt, then you would earn 2*50=100g per month. this would give the ppl living in fox-nest (the default city) and advantage and enable them to moove to another city soon

an example for earning money would be to become census officer (;-) ). he would get lets say 100g per month=term from domestic department.

Never Mind. This is a good idea. We just have to think of a way to pay everyone. Everyone will have to belong to an orginization to get paid. I am also confused by your system to pay everyone.

Good idea. The amount of money could also be raised by the number of posts you have made in the demo game (or over all).

We could have it were you get a ? amount per turn chat you attend. Plus the job that the citizen has. This might encourage more citizens to attend the turn chats.

This is the usual point where I will jump in and say that not everyone here has the option to attend turn chat given the time of day they occur.

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
This is the usual point where I will jump in and say that not everyone here has the option to attend turn chat given the time of day they occur.

Crap! You beat me to it!;)

That is why it's just an option. They will still have the other job to get money. This is mainly suppose to be a Real Life RPG. And sometime's Real Life isn't fair ;)

You could then run for presidency of course and set the schedule to a european or asian friendly time.
maybe helping to organize things in the forum, volunteering for doing other specific work ... would also be ideas to earn money.

Originally posted by disorganizer
You could then run for presidency of course and set the schedule to a european or asian friendly time.

Unless, the majority of our citizens call for a different time.:(

I think former president's should get a big pension. (I'm trying to buy a summer home in Kashmir. :) )

This isn't such a bad idea. I think government officials should get paid and those do work but are not part of the government should get more money. I'm thinking of Daara the Historian, Disorganizer the Censustaker, Strider the Honormaker and mayors, etc. this may prompt more people to make info accessable in the forums.

Should we try to start this... Most people that posted in here (But Bill annd Eyrei) seem to like it. It might also bring more active citizen's to the demogame.
Through if we do do it then we want to try to start off small:

Citizen infomation:All citizens who wish to take part of this will post here saying so.

Citizen Information(sticky): This thread contains the citizens particapating and next to their name how much money they have. This thread is reserved for the grocery store manager and the real estate agent. They post in this thread the citizens names and how much money they spent. The manager of this thread updates it daily.
Grocery Store(A thread and has a list of products & prices citizens post what they want with how much it costs. The manager then posts in the sticky Information thread the citizens name and how much they spent.

Real Estate Agent: They real estate agent posts a thread which contains how much it costs to move to each city. Citizens then post wheir they want to more and how much it will cost.

The Labor Office: This is were citizens can post the job they want and a ? amount of people decides how much they should get for that job. They also decide how often that person gets paid.

right. we still have many cities without majors.

i also think of moving to kashmir. i will maybe move to delphi and found a new church ;-)
as soon as i can talk civinator into renaming it

Originally posted by Strider
Should we try to start this... Most people that posted in here (But Bill annd Eyrei) seem to like it. It might also bring more active citizen's to the demogame.
Through if we do do it then we want to try to start off small:



I am not opposed to the idea in general. Rather, I am opposed to giving people who can attend turn chats a bonus. I actually like the idea, especially if it includes a decent pension for domestic leaders who served for the last 5500 years

;) .

Maybe a persion of about $2 a week eyrei ;)

Originally posted by Strider
Maybe a persion of about $2 a week eyrei ;)

Hmmm. Seems a little low...:(

Originally posted by Phoenix
Good idea. The amount of money could also be raised by the number of posts you have made in the demo game (or over all).

Bad idea. money per posts = spammers.

no. if then we should evaluate the quality, not the quantity ;-)
i could say in 100 posts what others say in 1
put for example nomination accepting should bring money.

No... It will might be for ex-domestic say:

50 Gold every other day.

Thus if moving to a Fox Nest is $100 you will need to wait four days for you can move. And even then you won' be able to afford house & grocerys.

Also another idea is we can have the jobs with the buildings/wonders/small wonders located in that city. So if a city has a barracks the citizen can join the military etc.

right.
and maybe we could just introduce a kind of "minimum salary" for all, like all citizens get $5 a month.
moving to fox-nest will cost nothing if you have nothing. it would be kind of a welfare-thing to return to the capitol. also, all new citizens will start of there if not otherwise specified.

Also sense pherris contain is the miliatry headquaters(mainly it is) Citizens who join the military their will get more money then if they join anywhere else. Same with factory worker in PDX etc.

Alright, how about something like this formula:

Turn is defined as each turn played in the game for the purpose of this thread.

President: 25 gold/turn
Vice President: 20/turn
Cabinet Member: 20/turn
Deputy: 15/turn
Governor: 15/turn
Non-elected government employee: 10/turn - 15 turn (depending on how much work is actually put into it)
Citizen: 5/turn

*If we could get all citizen groups to elect a lobbyist, that person would also make 10/turn.

Income is calculated by adding the citizen's income together for each month(term) since they joined the game using the highest pay grade that person qualifies for in each month. For example: dis would make 40/turn (non-elected government employee for 4 terms).

Income is spent on a gold/turn basis to make it possible to keep track of. Each citizen must update their post in the registry with how much they make(and why) and what they have purchased (reflected in gold/turn).

Each city could have a property value assigned which increases the cost of a home there, depending on the cultural value of the city.

This system would encourage citizens to start citizen groups and run for office (we had too many elections where only two people ran).

Good idea, through more detailed job listing might be funner, but this could be a good easy start.

Again I ask: Should I post a poll over putting this in motion during Term 4?

what about having a bank? the income is calculated automatically, and the bank is notifed by the seller and the buyer if a citizen buys something (amount and what is bought by whom from whom to be secified). the bank then reduces the mony on the account. a account-list is published in the bank-thread, and the expenses are posted as posts there.
2 new positions, the cashier and bank-leader will also be implemented ;-) maybe we even get 2 banks fighting against each other for citizens ;-)

Also that much each term might be alittle bit to little. Maybe Every three days? Every Other day?

maybe even each game turn. so the monthly money also depends on how many turns are played

I like dis's idea better than mine. 40 GPT and if we play 10 turns dis would then make 400 gold. We could have a normal tax say 50 gold for for living in a city(amount set by govonor)

If we can easily find a responsible bank manager, we could implement the actual gold/turn. It would be easier to do it the way I proposed, but might be more interesting if we actually accumulated money.

oh. i read term instead of turn
Turn is defined as each term played in the game for the purpose of this thread.
hmmm....

Ok here's a proposal:

President: 25 gold/turn
Vice President: 20/turn
Cabinet Member: 20/turn
Deputy: 15/turn
Governor: 15/turn
Non-elected government employee: 10/turn - 15 turn (depending on how much work is actually put into it)
Citizen: 5/turn

*If we could get all citizen groups to elect a lobbyist, that person would also make 10/turn.

Income is calculated by adding the citizen's income together for each month(term) since they joined the game using the highest pay grade that person qualifies for in each month. For example: dis would make 40/turn (non-elected government employee for 4 terms).

Income is spent on a gold/turn basis to make it possible to keep track of. Each citizen must update their post in the registry with how much they make(and why) and what they have purchased (reflected in gold/turn).

The govonor of the province's sets a ? amount of gold for each city. The citizen's who live in that city then has to pay that tax every 10 turns played in the demogame.

Originally posted by disorganizer
oh. i read term instead of turn

hmmm....

Wow. You are fast. That post was only up for about 15 seconds before I edited it, because I realized I had misunderstood you.:lol:

we should also have a max-amount for non-official citizen jobs.
like bank cashier or so. if they have a own thread, i would propose 10/t (group leader bonus). i would then +5 the others, so that the pres lands at 30

Here's an idea for the money issue:

A Bank. :)
This will keep track of what the citizen's have, and if they lent/gifted/donated money to anyone else.

Also, (mostly in the next demogame) have an economic system for pre-currency (bartering), pre-economics (just currency, and no 'true banking system', and post-economics (modern banking). Stock Markets would get a bit complicated. :)

Bartering - In effect until currency. Citizens have a X amount of supplies (food, crafts, clothing, etc.), and trade them at the town square. There will be no standards. In other words, one person might feel that 1 house is worth 500 melons, and 200 articles of clothes, whereas another might see 250 horses, 100 melons, and 500 of a certain craft (jewelery, toys, etc.) as being enough.

Currency - A normal exchange of coin. This is where the user will get GPT. It's a very simple system, with no banking.

Bank - Users can store their money (gain interest), or get loans for say, a house.

and we should have money going with special tasks. maybe a budget for every department and office to hire ppl for jobs.
an example would be the chat-office could hire ops or a bot-manager (just got a job-ad up for this one ;-) )

Originally posted by Strider

The govonor of the province's sets a ? amount of gold for each city. The citizen's who live in that city then has to pay that tax every 10 turns played in the demogame.

I think it would be more fun to do this by culture per turn for the city. Maybe divide it by 10 and that is the additional cost of a home in that city. Thus, most cities would only cost an additional 1/turn (or 0 if less than 10 culture per turn), but some cities, like Fox's Nest and PDX would cost an additional 5/turn. Having the home in difficult terrain, like on top of a mountain, would cost an additional 1/turn.

Originally posted by disorganizer
and we should have money going with special tasks. maybe a budget for every department and office to hire ppl for jobs.
an example would be the chat-office could hire ops or a bot-manager (just got a job-ad up for this one ;-) )

Excellent idea.

Hehe. I think Chieftess just proposed a whole new game.:cool:

fox nest should be the place to put social welfare in. so housing prices should be low there, as many citizens will start there.
maybe we could define it as sponsored by the government ;-)
but your idea on making it on the culture level is brilliant!
the gold/turn of the city shoud influence the income of citizens living there (like gpt/10*money they earn) and the culture would tax their housing (culture/10=gpt for living). if someone cant afford it any more, he is brought back to fox nest on social welfare

Originally posted by disorganizer
fox nest should be the place to put social welfare in. so housing prices should be low there, as many citizens will start there.
maybe we could define it as sponsored by the government ;-)
but your idea on making it on the culture level is brilliant!
the gold/turn of the city shoud influence the income of citizens living there (like gpt/10*money they earn) and the culture would tax their housing (culture/10=gpt for living). if someone cant afford it any more, he is brought back to fox nest on social welfare

I think it would be more interesting if all citizens starting in Fox Nest that cannot afford it are considered to be on welfare until they decide to move somewhere they can afford. The cost of an apartment will only be 1gpt, so any citizen that joined before the beginning of the current term could afford to live in Fox's Nest, they just couldn't have a big house. Or they could move somewhere else and have a mansion.

I think it will get too complicated if we use the changing income of the city in the formula. Culture will change occasionally anyway, which will add a little bit of change.

I like all of the idea's so far, but CT's idea would we diffucult to run. And we wouold most likly need atleast 20 people running it. Right now we don't have the man-power to put it into the proposal. If the easier version of the idea(eyrei's idea) gets more citizens and we have enough voulanteers we could get it.

i didnt think of the changes. you are right.
but the culture idea is great. we could also multiply it with
1 small house
3 cottage
5 mansion
10 villa
100 castle

50 castle might be better dis... 100 is to much.

This thread is flying also! By the time you type and post a reply their are two more replies!!!

the bank would be implemented at the moment.

the bank-leader would make a thread.
1st post is the account list as plaintext, excel as attachment
then a welfare list is posted with all citizens on welfare (cant afford their housing any more) in the 2nd post
the 3- post are for transaction. the transaction is posted by the paying citizen and must not be edited. this way the seller can follow wheter the transaction took place

Originally posted by disorganizer
fox nest should be the place to put social welfare in. so housing prices should be low there, as many citizens will start there.
maybe we could define it as sponsored by the government ;-)
but your idea on making it on the culture level is brilliant!
the gold/turn of the city shoud influence the income of citizens living there (like gpt/10*money they earn) and the culture would tax their housing (culture/10=gpt for living). if someone cant afford it any more, he is brought back to fox nest on social welfare

Or exiled to China. :)

It sounds good to me dis.

Also lets try to end discussion today. I'm afraid we might beat the military department thread in posts soon.

i think 100 for a casle would be good. ther should not be so many of them around.
the president will get 25 per turn. with 10 turns a chat and 2 turn a week, this will be 80*25=80/4*100=2000 per month
since the housing should be payed per month, he could afford 2000gold to pay per month

I suggest dropping it down from per month to per week. Remember 10 turns are at the lowest 10 years.

Double Post

Originally posted by disorganizer
i didnt think of the changes. you are right.
but the culture idea is great. we could also multiply it with
1 small house
3 cottage
5 mansion
10 villa
100 castle

I was thinking more along the lines of:

0 gpt =public housing
1gpt =apartment
2gpt =townhouse
4gpt =small house
6gpt =medium house
10 gpt =large house
15gpt = mansion
25gpt = large mansion
35 gpt = castle

and then add things like:

+5gpt for a medium plot of land (about 1/4 of a tile in the game)
+10 gpt for a large plot of land (about 1/2 of a tile in the game)
+15 gpt for a extra large plot of land (about 3/4 of a tile in the game)
+20gpt for an entire tile in the game and may choose which tile in the city radius(other than the center) he/she owns

we could also differntiate between buying houses or renting houses. renting would be payed per month, buying one time and then only a small "ground tax" to the city.

Originally posted by Strider

Citizen Information(sticky): This thread contains the citizens particapating and next to their name how much money they have. This thread is reserved for the grocery store manager and the real estate agent. They post in this thread the citizens names and how much money they spent. The manager of this thread updates it daily.
Grocery Store(A thread and has a list of products & prices citizens post what they want with how much it costs. The manager then posts in the sticky Information thread the citizens name and how much they spent.

Real Estate Agent: They real estate agent posts a thread which contains how much it costs to move to each city. Citizens then post wheir they want to more and how much it will cost.

The Labor Office: This is were citizens can post the job they want and a ? amount of people decides how much they should get for that job. They also decide how often that person gets paid.

For the grocery stores (and other places), we should have those activated in cities only with that improvement.

In other words:

Say we started a new game, and Fox Nest (to use an existing city) builds a granary. A granary would be a farm, so the main job would be farming. Then it builds a temple, which also allows anything related to temples (worship, mainly). A barracks next, and you can join the army. All new improvements (it would have to be marked in a thread) would allow certain groups to pop up.

i.e., Temples would allow religous groups, granaries would allow farming groups, etc.

Eyrei has alot of good idea's, but like I said... It's hard to keep up with ;). I think I like that one more that dis's, but maybe something like this:

0 gpt =public housing
1gpt=shack
2gpt =apartment
4gpt =townhouse
8gpt =small house
14gpt =medium house
20 gpt =large house
25gpt = mansion
35gpt = large mansion
50 gpt = castle

eyrey: except for the double post i think the idea for the land would be great. especially for the "whole tile rental".

Another suggestion:

The income of the city would affect the income of its' citizens. It'd make it more complicated though.

Alright, I think you guys misunderstood what I was saying at first. I will make it clear in a little while, but it is time for me to leave work.

i think everyone that become a citizen should be granted one territory. one territory gives : 1 gold/turn you could buy / trade for other territory.

Edit : then you could build a house ( cost nothing but take you 10 turn of your time while you don't gain any income since your building your house... )

2nd edit : If your territory is in city radius it get bonus from marketplace/bank.

3rd Edit : Special tile with cow and wine... etc would be governement properties.
Or if you have been deputies or pres you would be given one for your hard work, or something like that

Originally posted by Strider
Should we try to start this... Most people that posted in here (But Bill annd Eyrei) seem to like it. It might also bring more active citizen's to the demogame.


Who said I am opposed to it???

I actually am not against the idea at all, just the specific areas that might reward chat attendance. I am merely pointing out again that the purpose of the demo game was NEVER established as a function of turn chats. The real governing and decision making has always been intended to be in the forums.

Bill
...in PDX, the highest wages in all the land!

BadLuck: I can see another mini-game starting - "Real Estate Tycoon".

I think we need more mini-games. :)

To add to that:

you can only buy terrioty within the city radius. Undeveloped territory (base terrain) would be at a base value. Buying a house would be the cheapest here. Building roads, irragation and mines would increase the value (thus increasing the real-estate value). Also, if the tile is being worked, that raises the value.

There could be an algorithm to determine the land value. (i.e., a fully worked tiles - roads, irr./mines - would be worth more in a city with no corruption than a corrupted one) Also, polluted squares would drop in value.

so we will cut out the turn-chat participation-bonus. i think we have got enough other earning-possibilities by now ;-)

Reply to one of Badluck's edits. :)

----

resources of anytype would drastically increase landvalue...

EDIT:

Here's how I think the land values/rules should work:


1. Any unclaimed territory (not within any borders) can be claimed by a citizen. The maximum amount allowed will be 10 tiles. These can't be sold, or traded for money, until a city is placed within that radius. If another nation builds in that tile, then that owner can either:

a. Claim for a "Rain Check" (10 new tiles)
b. Urge the military to conquer it.

2. Any claimed territory (within our borders), but not within a city radius can be bought/sold for 1/2 the price.

3. Any territory within the city radius is at the base price.

4. These are what effect the value of that territory:

a. No improvements: Base Value
b. Road: Add the value of trade (i.e., +1 gpt)
c. mines/irragation: Add 1 gold per turn.
d. rails: add 2 gold per turn.
e. Pollution: The value drops to 1/2 the territory value until the pollution is cleared.
f. Enemy unit: No value is gained.
g. Territory is marked as developed (houses): add 1 gpt.
h: corruption: the greater the corruption, the less the value (to be determined)

5. Buying and Selling - Citizens can buy/sell territory at the total value. The value is calculated using the above rule.

who programs the tools we would need to calculate values ;-)?

the only thing about the 50gpt for a castle is, that's a whole lot of money and near impossible for anyone to ever rent. Maybe we could make it possible to buy a house ie:

20g =shack
40g =apartment
80g =townhouse
160g =small house
280g =medium house
400g =large house
500g = mansion
750g = large mansion
1000g = castle

and maybe be able to add on to an exising establishmnet:

medium house to large house= 120g

a-b*2= cost of improvement where b is current house and a is future house. just a though. AND I WILL START POSTING MORE!

Land Values: (Updated) :)

1. Any unclaimed territory (not within any borders) can be claimed by a citizen. The maximum amount allowed will be 10 tiles. These can't be sold, or traded for money, until a city is placed within that radius. If another nation builds in that tile, then that owner can either:

a. Claim for a "Rain Check" (10 new tiles)
b. Urge the military to conquer it.

2. Any claimed territory (within our borders), but not within a city radius can be bought/sold for 1/2 the price.

3. Any territory within the city radius is at the base price.

4. These are what effect the value of that territory:

a. No improvements: Base Value
b. Road: Add the value of trade (i.e., +1 gpt)
c. mines/irragation: Add 1 gold per turn.
d. rails: add 2 gold per turn.
e. Pollution: The value drops to 1/2 the territory value until the pollution is cleared.
f. Enemy unit: No value is gained.
g. Territory is marked as developed (houses): add 1 gpt.
h: corruption: the greater the corruption, the less the value (to be determined)

5. Buying and Selling - Citizens can buy/sell territory at the total value. The value is calculated using the above rule.

6. Territories have varying values based on the terrain type.

a. Grasslands - 5gpt
b. plains/forest - 4 gpt
c. mountains and hills - 3 gpt
d. desert - 2 gpt
e. jungle - 1 gpt

7. Coast, Seas, and Oceans can be claimed, but do not generate gpt by themselves.

8. A program will have to be made to deal with the numbers. :)

if you sell land, you dont get a gpt. you only get a fixed price ;-)
we should also implement this. so if you buy or sell land, you pay fixed.
we should implement a rental market for city tiles. these will be lent to any citizen for gpt, which will normally be the buy-price of 160 turns (about 8 real-life weeks=2 terms). so if for example a tile will cost 1600 gold, then the rental value would be 10gpt, even if it will be rented much longer than 160 turns. So the renting citizen will normally pay much more than for buying in the long run.

to get this to a point:
maybe we should start slow

only the gpt things for positions and the tax by culture aspect.
moving would be calculated by tile-distance between locations. 1 gold per road, 2 per rail tile. governors are brought to their province for free 1 time at the beginnin of their term from any location they live in.

all citizens which are not able to pay their tax are considered as on social welfare. their account balance will be set to 0 and stays there till they earn enough money for their housing.

a national bank should be founded by the government. the bank leader should keep track of the accounts of the citizens. expenses and trades are posted there.

the tileusage things etc. should be implemented later, as they get very complicated. maybe we should just put up a buy-price for tiles in city radius (maybe auction off the tiles?). if all tiles in a city are sold, no more tiles will be offered till radius expands.

citizens can trade for money at any time. and anything.

Hmm.. This RPG idea looks Cool, and it seems to be forming nicely. I've come in rather late so I don't fully understand everything (esp. the chat about land values). But, I think if we go ahead with this it should be done NEXT term or later, to allow the maximum amount of time for refinement.

Also with income, esp. with government positions could the # of terms increase the person's income?
For example say CT is President next term too. With 25gpt for being the President, her second term she could earn an extra 5gpt for a total of 30gpt. If she serves another term, 35 and so on.

Originally posted by Falcon02
Also with income, esp. with government positions could the # of terms increase the person's income?
For example say CT is President next term too. With 25gpt for being the President, her second term she could earn an extra 5gpt for a total of 30gpt. If she serves another term, 35 and so on.

That was what I intended, and I think they are including that. Your current gpt = your gpt for each term since you joined added together.

I've opened a drinking/eating establishment and a gold mine in one province, a sister drinking/eating establishment and a diamond mine in another province, plus I'm the Curator of the National Art Museum. Does all this add up?

I think at first we should start slow, but it all depends on how many people voulanteer to help with it.

1-3 people
Move to a differant city and buy a house their.
Tax for that city.

4-10 people
The above
Gorcery Store(or market)
Can buy land tiles
Can chose from a ? number of jobs in that city.

11- + people
About everything that contains Real Life ;)

I also think we need to start a seprate thread for people who voulanteer to do this(we could also add +5 GPT to their normal if the voulanteer to help.)

I like my idea of adding things per improvements. Some things are nation-wide, of course (like citizen's groups).

Of course you like your idea. Perhaps wonder related jobs (say in PDX you need people for plays, or in Justinian people to compose music)

For citizen groups maybe we should have it where only people from a city that already contains a member of that citizens group can join.

i would propose it in another way:

a citizen group has to pay a special amount of money (set by the governor of the province) to build a branch office in a province. a citizen can only join a citizen group if this group has a branch in the province where he lives in. a branch can only be opened if a member of the group lives in the coresponding province. so if a member of a citizen group move to a non-branched province, he must leave the group or the group founds a branch there.

the member who was there first is then the "regional leader" of this group.

the main office (province where the group-leader lives in) is for free. if the leader moves, the main office is also moved. the leader of the group is also the regional leader for the province the main office is in.

if a governor wants to attract many citizens, he may also set the "branching fee" to 0.

citizen groups could also demand money from their members, like 1gpt to joing the STG. the group can nevertheless also give away "honour memberships", which are for free.

provinces, as well as the nation, will also have an account-balance like normal citizens have. we could reflect the gpt in the game with this balance. like if in the game we get 500gpt, the nation get 500gpt to their account. i would say 50% stay in the national pot, and the rest is equally (or maybe depending on city-number or another figure) given to the provinces.
the nation can pay the offices out of the national account, the governor pay local jobs from the provincial account (example: the president would be payed by the national, the governor by the provincial account). the government can then decide how to split the national account income between the departments. if a governor would for example need a chat-rep, he will have to pay him from the provincial account. if he cant afford it, he has none. also, the provincial account will get booked 50% of the fees, the rest goes to national account. fees will include moving tax and branching tax, as well as maybe group-tax. the fees and local taxes should be defined by the governors. the government defines how much % of the fees go to the national account (for all provinces, like 10% of all taxes+fees go to the nation).


EDIT:
of course, citizen groups could also pay for their members. they just have to get the money from somewhere

a big issue:
bribing officials.

we must implement an constitutional article to put high punishment on bribing, like for example a citizen group could pay an official to decide things. since our banking system would be open, this would be easy to detect ;-)

a good point:
punishment

we could ad new forms of punishment:
* paying a amount of gold (for nation, province, or maybe a citizen group)
* paying a compensation for someone who was harmed (like hurting a citizens reputation on purpose could get him a pay)
* for bribing i would say exclusion from all offices for a minimum of 1 term, all his money goes to the national budget, all pension rights are nullified. so this citizen would get the normal citizen income for a minimum of 1 term.
* citizen groups could be punished for things with a pay (like for example the STG-case (i think it was PI1?) could have been handled by a 10gpt payment over 1 term.
...

a new idea:
pensions for officials

all official should get a pension. and this pension should increase with the number of terms they served. example for base-pension:
1 unelected official
2 deputy
3 governor or leader
4 vice president
5 president
this would be multiplied by the number of terms served. and would be added to the base 5gpt for each citizen.

examples:
* if i would leave my office next term,i would get 4*1 gpt=4gpt+5gpt=9gpt as pension for my 4 terms as census officer.
* gf would get 2*5=10gpt+5gpt=15gpt now as he served 2 terms as president
* donsig would get 1*5=5gpt+5gpt=10gpt now as he served 1 term as president

this would also bring the office-holders to not staying in the office too long, as after some time the pension gets higher than their normal money ;-)

pension is payed from the date the citizens leaves office till the end of the game. if the citizen reenters the same office again, the pension for this office is stopped until he leaves again. the number of terms will be added together.

details have to be worked out of course.

Originally posted by disorganizer
a new idea:
pensions for officials

all official should get a pension. and this pension should increase with the number of terms they served. example for base-pension:
1 unelected official
2 deputy
3 governor or leader
4 vice president
5 president
this would be multiplied by the number of terms served. and would be added to the base 5gpt for each citizen.

examples:
* if i would leave my office next term,i would get 4*1 gpt=4gpt+5gpt=9gpt as pension for my 4 terms as census officer.
* gf would get 2*5=10gpt+5gpt=15gpt now as he served 2 terms as president
* donsig would get 1*5=5gpt+5gpt=10gpt now as he served 1 term as president

this would also bring the office-holders to not staying in the office too long, as after some time the pension gets higher than their normal money ;-)

pension is payed from the date the citizens leaves office till the end of the game. if the citizen reenters the same office again, the pension for this office is stopped until he leaves again. the number of terms will be added together.

details have to be worked out of course.

dis, I think this is getting too complicated. Why don't we start with the simple plan I put forth, and see how much interest there is before we make it so complex.

Citizen income is determined by adding the income that person has had each term together. So, a normal citizen who has been here since the beginning, but has held no office, would make 5gpt+5gpt+5gpt+5gpt=20gpt during this term. Next term, he would make 25gpt and so on. Grey Fox would make 25gpt+25gpt+5 gpt + 5gpt = 60gpt during this term. Then all we need to do is decide on prices for basic stuff such as homes and land. Once we work the snags out of this system, we can begin making it more complicated.

now i understand your system. how will we determine who was there from when on? do we assume we all were here from term1 on and then track from now on?

Originally posted by disorganizer
now i understand your system. how will we determine who was there from when on? do we assume we all were here from term1 on and then track from now on?

Well, we can start with the registry. It shows the date the post was made. If someone claims to have been here longer before they registered, it is up to them to find a post before that. You get credit for partial terms, and for ease, even if you joined on the last day of a term, you get credit for the whole term.

Hehe, using this system, I think Shaitan will be the richest person in the country. He has been on the cabinet for the entire game (I think), which equates 80gpt! I am not sure how to work the term 2 calculation for myself. I was domestic leader, vice president and president at some point during that term. Same with donsig. Should he be paid for being a cabinet member even though it was only for the last week when Grey Fox resigned and I had to take over the presidency? For ease of calculation, it might be best to simply pay a citizen for the highest office they held for any length of time during a term.

what would we do with ppl holding multiple positions? i am census officer and chat officer for 4 terms now.
this would be 2*10*4=80gpt (hey, same as shaitan!)

you were domestic leader. the vice was only a consequence of you job. so you would have get payed as domestic leader only.

if someone was a deputy, he can even get more money than the leader by being a governor or another deputy at the same time ;-)

if the game takes 20 terms and i still will be both, i will net about 20*10*2=20*20=10*40=400gpt!

EDIT:
and every week i will have about 20*400=800 gold. so every term i will have 4*800=3200gold!

Originally posted by disorganizer
what would we do with ppl holding multiple positions? i am census officer and chat officer for 4 terms now.
this would be 2*10*4=80gpt (hey, same as shaitan!)

you were domestic leader. the vice was only a consequence of you job. so you would have get payed as domestic leader only.

if someone was a deputy, he can even get more money than the leader by being a governor or another deputy at the same time ;-)

if the game takes 20 terms and i still will be both, i will net about 20*10*2=20*20=10*40=400gpt!

EDIT:
and every week i will have about 20*400=800 gold. so every term i will have 4*800=3200gold!

Still, I had to do the job, so I would have gotten the salary. I would prefer to just use the highest position that person held for the term, but I see your point about people holding multiple positions. If we decide to do it that way, however, it must be across the board, which means I would be paid 40 gpt for the first term alone (domestic leader and VP). While I would like to advocate that system because it would probably make me the wealthiest citizen, I think it might be a little unfair to those who have always served in one position and done a good job. I would be making 105gpt(40gpt for the first term + 40gpt for the second term + 20 gpt for the third term + 5 gpt for the current term).

I wonder if sciece chat rep could be used as an extra poistion. If so I've been in science all 4 terms
Term 1:Science Chat Rep
Term 2:Science Deputy
Term 3:Science Leader(trade deputy also)
Term 4:Science Leader

a chat-rep is an official position.
if we implement governmental accounts, the department would even have to pay you for it or do the work themselves.
i think multiple positions in government should not be separately rewarded. only the "government employees" should get the award for every job they do.
for example: being the chat-rep and the census officer is added, being 2 deputies will result in 1*deputy money. if you have a leader and a deputy position, you will get 1*the leader money. if you get the same and additionally are chat-op or honour officer, then you will get the money for the employee position additionaly to it.

No I was just wondering if I get the extra cash for being in the sciecne department from term 1 ;)

Well, the only thing we need to hammer out is whether you can be paid for more than one position during a term, and whether you get paid for a promotion that occurs during a term.

Allowing a citizen to draw salaries does reward those who have put a great deal of work into the game, but punishes those who have done this in one department/position.

Allowing a citizen to draw the additional salary of a position they held for only part of the term is probably not a good idea. What I suggest that if an official is promoted due to whatever reason, the salary of the lower position is replaced by the one for the higher position. Thus, for term two, when Grey Fox resigned, I would be paid for being president and domestic leader rather than for president, VP and domestic leader. I was promoted from VP to president. Donsig, who was also promoted due to Grey Fox's resignation would be paid as domestic leader rather than deputy. It seems odd to have two people paid for being domestic leader in one term, but otherwise, I would actually be paid less than if I had not been promoted, which makes little sense.

Maybe we should also pay citizens for their active in the forums. Say we can have someone who keeps track of who post's in the department threads(everyone but the current council-members)The person then checks if the poster is a citizen and that cititzen gets say a lump sum of 5 gold for that post.

And i would say that GF would in this example only earn 1 term as president, as he resigned before the end. This will also prevent ppl from just going to a job and then resign in the middle.

We could also put a fee on not naming a rep when you cant go to chat.

But to come back to the point:
who can summarize what we want to do in THE FIRST STEP?
just to get it reflected so we can add to it some points which are needed and workout a detailed concept. the other ideas may be implemented later.

Maybe have a program/bot check the user's last post date. If it's > 2 weeks (or a month - due to it being summer, and people are on vacation/at camp), then they're considered inactive. Thier 'salary' would be 1/2 the normal salary.

ct: there are ppl who only read and vote, but never post ;-)

I agree with dis... We need to take ALL of the idea's and seprate them and chose which one's a simple and would be easy to do. Anyone willing to go through 5 pages of posts ;).

Also if the poll is accepted we could start a voulanteer thread. The citizens who voulanteer too help with this(they can get added salary also)posts their name. Then we can know how much we can run. If we have a good amount of people voulanteer to help and we have a good base plan we could posts an offocial poll. If it is accepted we can start to get it rdy for term 5.

Citizen Pay Grades

President: 25gpt
VP: 20gpt
Cabinet member: 20gpt
Deputy: 15gpt
Non-elected government official: 10-15 gpt
Citizen group lobbyist (elected by the citizen group): 10gpt
Citizen: 5gpt

To determine a citizen's income for a term, add the income for all positions held. If a promotion occurs, replace the income from the old position with that of the new one. If an official resigns or is impeached, they receive only half of the income for that position. Thus, an official who is a cabinet member and VP receives 40 gpt, and a president who is pres and a deputy (I think this is allowed) will receive 40 gpt. The 5gpt for being a citizen is only used if that person has no other job.

To calculate current income, add the total income for that citizen since he/she joined the game. Thus, if a citizen was a cabinet member in term 1 and a deputy in term 2, he would receive 35 gpt during term 2. As far as determining this total current income, it is counted from the term the citizen joined the game based on the date of the post in the registry. If a citizen can prove they joined earlier by unearthing an old post, this will be used instead. Thus, a citizen that joined in term 1 and held no job would receive 20gpt during term 4. Had he/she joined in term 2, the income would be 15gpt.

Gpt is accumulated every turn of the game that is played, thus a citizen making 35 gpt would accumulate 165 gold for every 5 turns played. Each citizen is responsible for posting their current income in their post in the registry, and why. We will need to hire a banker to keep track of citizens' accumulated gold.

I think this is a clear and workable proposal. We should take it for a test drive while it is still simple before we begin adding things. I would appreciate it if someone else would post a list of housing prices as was discussed earlier in this thread.

If we are doing it gpt (turn refering to each time we actually PLAY), then leaving mid term is unimportant. Once they leave they stop getting the salary for that position. However, pention could be harder to figure out, unless we calculate it per time we play as well. However this could overcomplicate things to early.

Originally posted by Strider
Also if the poll is accepted we could start a voulanteer thread. The citizens who voulanteer too help with this(they can get added salary also)posts their name. Then we can know how much we can run. If we have a good amount of people voulanteer to help and we have a good base plan we could posts an offocial poll. If it is accepted we can start to get it rdy for term 5.

I guess no one has any complaints against this? While the voulanteer thread and the offcial poll is running we can try to work things out.

i would say we open a bank thread, since searching thru registry is hard to do.
structure: 1 bank leader is appointed
1st post: list of all citizens with their account balance and current gpt
2nd- post: the citizens place account moovements there
example: i have to pay falcon 20 gold, so i put in a thread that i pay 20 gold to falcon. the banker then updates the account.
this way, falcon also sees the transaction and editing will not be allowed. the banker can subscribe to the thread for updates.

i would say that lobbyist should earn less than a official. and they should get payed by the group, financed with fees for the members. the stg could for example get 1gpt from their members. with 30 members, this would net 30gpt, which would be a good pay for a good lobbyist ;-)

so this would propably be: 7 gpt for lobbyist if he gets payd by the state. but i would propose he should be paid by his group.

Yes, A bank thread is has to be made. To bad we can't create a bot(or something) that when someone posts a transaction it automaticly does it.

maybe someone can to a webpage for this. the participating citizen can then get a password there and with this enter transactions live!

CT is still designing the website I believe. Maybe we can get her to have a page and possible do it.

I only had 477 posts when I started this thread 2 days ago. Look at my posts now!!!

Edit:This thread is now 6 pages long a 100 posts!!!!(default thread view)

Rather than have the banker have to go through the registry and determine each citizens income, it should fall upon each citizen that wishes to do this to inlcude this information in their registry post. Then all the banker(s) has to do is go through and make sure they did it right. The banker will have enought responsibility once people start buying things with hard cash rather than gold per turn. The registry will contain all possessions of a citizen and the amount of gpt they pay for each if it is paid for in gpt.

the banker could use excel to calculate the account balances after each turn-chat. he would not have to look thru the registry, as all changes will be in the banking thread.
all gpt earnin-changes are:
a) transactions between citizens
b) position-related and so only to be changed once a term

I've got a favor to ask of whoever wants to do it. Can someone please read through this thread gather up some of the simple good idea's and sum them up into a what we could use for the starting idea. Once this is up and the current poll over (and accepted) I will post the voulanteer thread. We can discuss the summary for the ? days after we get a good idea of how it's going to be like he official poll will be posted for 3 days. If it is accepted we could pick a ? amount of people for a beta test and if that works out it will be started in Term 5.

Wow! some great ideas. I'd get back in if you implemented these..... and if some fairy came and granted me 13 extra hours every day.

@eyrei:
here is an example excel 2000 file (did not have time to do in access, but this should give you an idea)

the blue fields are automatically filled.
you enter a "starting balance", for example at the beginning all will have 0, at the end of the month a new file is generated and all have there the balance at the moment.
then you enter the gpt the citizen earns this term (fixed for whole turn! if he quits a job he gets nothing for his job for the term). you also enter the deduction in gpt (for example for housing). the gpt net is automatically calculated.
you also enter the number of turns played till now with this gpt-values.
you then add one account moovement after each other from left to right (like +10,-5,+15,...) for the payings.
from these values, the updated balance is calculated (start+gptnet*turns+moovments).
if a new term starts, you just mark the whole "balance" column, copy it to the clipboard and start a new file (you should have a empty one ready) or maybe even just copy an empty table in the same file, then you "paste only values" the balances to the "starting balance" column and restart ;-)

this must of course be tweaked, but u see its possible to do. it should nevertheless be done by the banker, cause he will have to work with it.

Good Stufff!!

About salary, what about those who are unemployed? Do they get welfare of say 10gpt?

5gpt i think we said. like every citizen get 5 gpt. if they cant afford living any more, they are brought to the slums of fox's nest.

i think someone should really read thru this and post a summary!

As I see everyone seems to like the idea I will post the offcial poll in the poll sub-forum. I'll update this post to include a link once it is posted. If that poll is a accepted a voulanteer thread will be posted. If we get enough voulanteers we will start getting it ready for Term 5.

Link:DemoGame RPG Poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=370657#post370657)

People need to be able to live wherever they wish. Even if "salary" doesn't give anything else, it has to pay living expenses in any city. Our Constitution guarantees each citizen the right to live anywhere in Phoenatica.

where is this guaranteed?
comare it to real life: i cant afford living where i want, so i live where i can afford it.

with our base-salary, everybody will be able to move in the city of his choice within a few terms.

Shaitan has a very good point, Dis. You might want to work out a provision in your real estate plan to allow this.

one addition could be: public housing for 1gpt in every city. the citizen can choose where to live in the beginning. so all citizens will be able to save 4gpt for travel to a new home.
this for example will cost 1 gold per square, so it will be maybe 100-200 gold. in 50 turns (=5chats=2weeks) waiting, all citizens can afford the travel and move if they like.
the only problem could be mayors setting the taxes too high.
the roleplay should reflect rl, so we should not bee too "nice".

I'm not sure about the 100g -200g part, but yes, government housing in each city would be a move in the right direction. This would allow a quick move and permit the citizen to live in the city of their choice, while building their account to buy or rent a new home.

Don't forget, every citizen is a Congressman. They should be able to afford a decent house in their district (which is wherever they wish in our world).

Out of the current topic but anyway:

If the game works out ok and progress's maybe we could include the goverment in this money crap. Each department gets a ? amoun of money which then they pay their deputy & chat rep with part of that money. What's left over they department can save or we can come up with some other stuff they could use it on.

strider: right. and also the citizen groups. but start slow.

shaitan: so thats what they get 5gpt for. if they save it, they could buy a tile of land sometimes. like in real live.
nobody said that the public housing is SO bad. its just in the city-centre and they get no onw tile.

btw: the congress here is a virtual congess with electronic voting and without being forced to be on the discussion all the time. so its no "real job". the congressmen in rl have to be somewhere and have a working day. so they maybe get more money. no question that they maybe get too much in rl.
our "all citizen congress" is more like the "virtual democracy" in ctp2. a kind of congress implemented nowhere (no. wait! i think its swiss who kind of have this implemented, as all mayor decisisons there must be held as citizen-poll).

another point is that citizen goups may also pay ppl.
like for example the stp may pay the "leader of the southern devision" a salary for being the STG-representative. the group can get money to do so from charging their members gpt-fees for membership. this will also encourage founding more citizen groups being in competition with each other. also local taxes will highly influence who moves into which city.

spawned discussion:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27033

about limiting membership to citizengroup based on the location of branch offices.

Just for a estimated amount. If the poll is accepted who will help organize it? Just reply saying you will be willing to help for I can get an estimated amount. You will still have to reply in the voulanteer thread through.

Strider, I thought you and Dis and Eyrei were volunteering to do the bulk of the work?

I'll be willing to help/

i posted an excel sheet as an example for "the banker". this will be a new position. the banker and maybe a deputy will keep track of expenses and the budget count for all citizens.
this could be done in simple excel forumlas, with a bit of copying after each turn chat. example:
old-balance+gpt*turnsplayed+expenses+additional income=new balance
to be calculated after each chat-session, this will result in a new row of old-balance entries (copy result-values to old-balance column). then we start over with it. of course, each individual excel-sheet should be archived for reference.
(just an example... having a webpage or excel-app or access-app would of course work much better)

Cyc: I don't know about Dis and eyrei, but I'm going to try and do the bulk of the work. But the more people we have helping the more we can do.

Sorry i would have to decline adding more work to the game, as rl got me when i did not watch ;-)
and i already got so many positions i want other ppl in there.

The DemoGame RPG voulanteer thread is now up!! If you wish to voulanteer to help organize and run the demogame RPG please post in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=379571#post379571

ok apparentley i am the sales manager or summin according to strider
well how about this you have a happiness thing where you can buy stuff that improve your happiness
e.g.wine-half a happiness point
french wine-happiness point
champagne-2 happiness points
but the things which have more happiness points are more expensive.
but if you are in say the top 10 happiness point earners out of the whole RPG for that month then for the next month you get say 5 gpt extra to your salary

Hi guys...

Just perusing the ideas, and here's my 2 cents worth on the subject of jobs: as improvements are built in cities, we'll need staff, right? So when, for example, we build a bank in Metropolis, we need to hire a banker. The tricky part is deciding who gets what job, 'cuz some will undoubtedly pay more than others...

Another thought... it's not clear to me what people do with their money. Someone suggested buying a home, food, etc. which is a good idea. But here's another idea: individual citizens could contribute money to groups (or individuals) who would then spend it on advertising to get their favorite candidate elected. For example, the Metropolis String Collector's Club want to get their leader, Bob, elected president. They each chip in some $$, which the group uses to purchase the right to post on a special campaign board (I can see it now: a poster with Bob's smiling face posted for all to see). Or perhaps they use their $$ to set up a debate with other candidates on an IRC channel. The possibilities are endless...

Anyway, there are a couple of ideas for more interesting uses for money. Keep the great ideas coming!

Emp.
:frog: :whipped:

the groups can implement as "membership fee" if they want. if you set up a group, you can just state that every member has to pay 1gpt for example.
the group then gets its own account and can pay for example chat representatives or other jobs. they could even buy land-tiles or houses for group meetings...

another idea would be to give the governmental position a kind of budget, from which they could pay governmental officers.

We could do it that way. It will take longer to set up, but it might work.

As the newly elected Mayor of New York, I'd like to throw my two cents here into the National Economic Forum.

I have been impressed in this thread with the complexity of an RPG based on getting money for work performed within the game. Far simpler than actually going out and getting a job, I suppose ;-p

I'd like to propose an alternate, and perhaps simpler way of bringing an economic flavor to the RPG. Although all figures below are open to debate, I will include 'starting figures' for purposes of example.

* * *

1. All citizens are residents of a given city. I will presume that all citizens are members of the ruling elite, and thus would be capable of generating investment funds rather than "grocery" funds which I believe could get tedious pretty quickly.

2. Citizens not holding an office or position will generate income per turn based on a percentage of the city's revenue stream and size. Although numbers will be related to in game numbers, it is presumed that the private sector generates funds not shown in the game.

Example 1: Private citizens will generate as income 5% of the economic output of their city every turn with a minimum of 1 Gold Piece (gp). Thus, as a city grows its citizens will become richer, enticing more people to move to that city, reflecting real world societal trends over the last 6 millenia.

3. Citizens may generate more income by taking on a variety of roles.

Example 2: A mayor recieves a bonus of 10% of the gp output of his city.

Example 3: A governor receives 5% of the gp of each city under his/her domain.

Example 4: A President or VP would receive 2% and 1% of the Gross National Product (GNP) per turn respectively.

4. Members of various associations, guilds, government departments, etc. would gain income from specific areas of the income pool.

Example 5: Someone in a science organization would in addition to their base income receive 1% of the science GNP, as well as 1gp for each science based culture point in his/her city.

Example 6: Provincal/national group leaders would generate funds according to their position. The leader of a regional religous fanatic group might generate 10% of the region's gp as tithe, as well as gp on a one for one basis for religious culture points in their city or cities controlled.

5. Forum functionaries can be presumed to be doing the bureaucratic work of the game, and as government employees make their funds from taxes.

Example 7: 50% of GNP per turn is divided (evenly or otherwise) between moderators, etc.

6. Citizens can use the funds they generate to encourage public works.

Example 8: The citizens of Barsoom join together and raise funds to lobby the President (or whichever governmental department) to build a bank. The agreed to funds would then be transferred to that government agency, and added to the budget which is split up by that department's employees. The bank is built, and the citizens of Barsoom increase their income.

Example 9: The citizens of East Cupcake contribute funds to purchase land currently owned by Podunk. The City of Podunk realizes a windfall which they use to fund a hospital.

7. Every age evolution causes the savings bank to reduce funds by a factor of 10. This encourages people to spend for the good cause rather than trying to amass 6000 years of wealth, which has never been done, and in any event would be pointless.

8. Bribery is allowed within the framework of the RPG to make things more realistic, but external rules govern what is acceptable, and what is not.

Example 10: Bribes you can make:
a. Pay a Governor to give you a specific production item.
b. Pay an organization to recommend your City for a Wonder.
c. Pay an agency to "redistrict" provincial maps.
d. Pay the Department of Labor to assign workers to your city.

Bribes you cannot make:
e. You cannot bribe someone to destroy an improvement in another city (Exception: fanatic groups).
f. You cannot bribe someone to miscount votes from a poll.

9. Specialty units could be purchased by a player or group, and then controlled by that player or group, a form of privatization. Unit maintenance costs could be paid by the owner as some form of taxation.

Example 10: A player funds an Explorer. Discoveries made henceforth by that unit would enrich that player. If it finds a goody hut, half of the amount added to the GNP would go to the player. In the case of a tech, some predetermined number, such as the number of research points needed to discover that tech would go to the player. This would simulate a simple patent system.

Example 11: A city or association funds construction of a privateer. Any booty generated by that privateer would be split among the members of the consortium, and would be tied to the construction cost of the prize.

10. Company towns and principalities. Players could fund construction of settlers. If settled beyond a country borders, then noone else's permission would be needed for placement. If inside country borders, government approval would be needed. These quasi-independent cities would simulate the large number of non-aligned nations of limited power in our real world. The owner of the city would then exercise control over the production queue, as well as take a double share of the revenue for that city, demonstrating more private revenue and less public revenue in these types of situations. The founder of a principality could establish a noble line.

Example 11: A pro-business group decides expansion towards a lucrative area isn't happening fast enough, so they outfit a colonization unit, and settle into a mountainous area with lots of riches. They also outfit a defensive unit from point 9 above and use it to garrison the town. Any revenue generated from such a city should have a higher percentage of its income diverted to the risktaking capitalists.

11. Principalities and company towns could be sold or traded. At the beginning of each era, company towns within the general borders of the nation (i.e. not a Hawaii or Alaska) would shift to national control. This would simulate the lessening influence of the founder over time, as the population grows & demands statehood.

12. Colonists. When a city produces a colonist, the citizens of that city should receive a portion of the income that the new city generates, emphasizing business and cultural ties between the two. As with point 11, this would expire at the changing of the era.

* * *

The above is just some quick thinking, which I'd be happy to flesh out further if the citizenry think it a worthy idea. Let me explain my rationale in the above proposal.

We know we can beat the computer with our massively paralell brain power. What the above guidelines do is add a bit of real world intruigue to the game. Pork dominates our political scene, and using it to buy for example "The First Disorganized Bank of Eritrea" for example would allow one to acquire holdings in various cities and industries, while fostering a scenario of competitive cooperation in the game.

Citizens would vie for improvements to enrich their own domains, while not always looking at the national interest. A citizen group which promotes a market rather than a spearman destined for a frontier town will enrich itself at the expense of frontier security. And if it causes us to lose that city, so what? We'll win in the end, but have a lot of fun posting on the subject. If the aforementioned example, I can hear the howls of protest lamenting corporate greed over the national interest. (Hmmm, that may be going a bit too far. That would NEVER happen in the real world, right?)

This proposal ignores the more mundane expenses proposed in earlier posts. We can assume that the Rockefellers were not overly concerned with their day to day expenses. Rather, the funds are used for public works. It is a hallmark of "noblesse oblige" that the wealthy do philanthropic work.

Bribery is allowed because in an RPG, there are some who will enjoy that facet of the game. Likewise, fanatics may wreak some havoc in the game, but ultimately they will add more depth and realism. I doubt the fanatics would affect overall victory, but if they did, more power to them, it'll make the game interesting as all hell. Fanatics could be funded from a percentage of waste gp.

I'm sorry for this long post, but once I started the idea rolled itself out. Please take the time to envision some of the inherent nuances I can see in this proposal. I think that the Machiavellian possibilities here are endless.

That is some good idea's, but right now were trying to start small. If it works out that way the well make an "update" to it to make it funner.

Kault, that is impressive and well-thought out. However, I agree with Strider that starting small and adding complexity as we go probably makes sense.

I especially liked the notion idea of tying actual city production to wages, though would add that they should be *divided* among city residents in order to encourage people to move to smaller cities and not just lump up in the capital.

Strider and Danke: Thank you for you input. I would not expect to devise this set of rules with no debate or compromise. I would like to address the points you raised, however.

1. Simplicity - Hmmmmm, if we wanted simplicity, we wouldn't be playing a game with the name and scope of Civilization. I contend that it is the very complexity inherent in this game that holds our interest (which is why, other than this GOD, I play the DYP mod exclusively). That said, I certainly understand management issues, and can see a phased implementation of this RPG. Please realize, however, that the basic concept IS simple. Revenue is based on size and profitability of holdings. Expenses are based on building infrastructure and swaying public policy.


2 - Starting small - Just because you'd prefer to start small doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a full and logical framework in place to expand into if the concept is popular. I believe that we would rather enjoy our time working out this system as an intellectual debate, even if it is never fully implemented. It seems to me that this would be more satisfying than to cobble a system together as we go, with the inherent inconsistencies that may engender.

3 - Fun. While I understand your reasoning, Strider, I submit that if it isn't fun to start with, no one will care to continue it to make it "funner". Personally, I can't see the fun in turning this game into something that I would have to buy food and pay mortgage every turn. I would choose not to participate in such a system, as I have quite enough of those expenses in real life.
My big question as I began to think this concept up was: Why would anyone (unless they have never had to work) want to model that side of our existence? Also, as I pointed out in my previous post, I think that our members should be considered the shakers and movers of the world we play in rather than the burger-flippers. As such basic food, clothing and shelter expenses would not be something that these people would be concerned about. Do you really think that a state governor spends a lot of time worried about these issues?

The system I propose allows for more player interaction and is to my reasoning a far more fun game. Even though the framework may appear to be complex, if constructed properly, it will run smoothly. You don't have to know how to program code to play a computer game.

4 - Dividing city production among citizens. I had already considered this line of thought and dismissed it for the following reasons:

a - If revenue were divided per your suggestion, it would have the opposite effect of what you imagine. Every time a citizen moves to a city, the income pie gets sliced into smaller pieces. Thus, citizens would tend to discourage others from moving in.

b - Urbanization has been a trend in society ever since the nomads discovered agriculture. Big cities with an active electorate can be a powerful force in Congress, and could swing the balance on polls.

c - I had also considered putting a cap on the income the citizenry could realize from their home. With my example of a citizen receiving 5% of their city's gp, we could establish a cap of 50%. therefore, up to 10 citizens would receive the full 5%. Once a city grows beyond 11 citizens, the percentage would be reduced, but by that time, one would suppose that the local citizenry would have increased the economic base of the city sufficiently to offset their smaller base percentage.

* * *

As I said in my previous post, I think the current game indicates that we can kick the computer's butt handily. I believe that it would be more fun to throw a little chaos into the the game, as some of my proposals would do. If that means we don't built railroads until 1830 rather than 1380, that's great. Ultimately, I would not be involved in this game just to generate a high game score. Rather I would prefer to have a rich and varied gaming experience with players around the world.

How many games of Civ have been played around the world? How many games of Democracy? Likely, the total number of Democracy games that will ever be played in the entire world are less than the number of Civ games than any of us individually has played. Why not make them something extra special?

Let me close with an example. Two winters I was involved in the "Alpha Quadrant Challenge" campaign tied to Star Trek Voyager. The game was exceptionally simple in execution, but had great potential in RPG. Out of 38,000 players, I placed fourth. In the end, my placement and high score didn't mean anything, but the friendhsips and rivalries that developed were epic! That game lasted 5 months, about the same time as Democracy. Given that most citizens (and mayors) basically have little to do, the implementation of this roleplaying framework would add untold hours of interplay and intruigue.

I look forward to further dialogue on this topic.

Humbly submitted by
Kault
Mayor of New York

Originally posted by Kault
3 - Fun. While I understand your reasoning, Strider, I submit that if it isn't fun to start with, no one will care to continue it to make it "funner". Personally, I can't see the fun in turning this game into something that I would have to buy food and pay mortgage every turn. I would choose not to participate in such a system, as I have quite enough of those expenses in real life.
My big question as I began to think this concept up was: Why would anyone (unless they have never had to work) want to model that side of our existence? Also, as I pointed out in my previous post, I think that our members should be considered the shakers and movers of the world we play in rather than the burger-flippers. As such basic food, clothing and shelter expenses would not be something that these people would be concerned about. Do you really think that a state governor spends a lot of time worried about these issues?

Acutally part of the concept is already handled... I put almightyjosh in charge of entertainment which means he can create parties etc. Mainly real-life entertainment events. We need to look into the subject further the next update through.

Orginally posted by kault 2 - Starting small - Just because you'd prefer to start small doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a full and logical framework in place to expand into if the concept is popular. I believe that we would rather enjoy our time working out this system as an intellectual debate, even if it is never fully implemented. It seems to me that this would be more satisfying than to cobble a system together as we go, with the inherent inconsistencies that may engender.

I do agree but with the people we have it might be hard. We will be happy if you joined are team to work on this subject.

Post here to join:

&
Here to see the current orginazation:

Post where?

i second the proposals of kault, but still we would need some things to start with them:
* tools to automate calculation of the values
* more ppl to help
i also second to start the small version immediately at the next game, but to still discuss the further expansion in parallel to be prepared to give more "food" to the rpg adicts as they jump on the game.
we should also discuss how we could slowly migrate from the small to the big version without major interruptions of the gameplay.
and of course, if we manage to give the cities themselves more power (and with this the citizens living there) and give ppl some reason to move around the country, this will also enhance roleplay and makes the big rpg easier to implement.
but i say again: we will need some tools (webpages? web-apps?) to calculate the values without having 100s of citizens busy doing the calcs.

Thanks for your second, Disorganizer. It's always comforting to have the support of a diety.

Let me tell you a little bit of history, and what I'm willing to do to help. I got involved with Traveller, a sci-fi RPG back in 1977. After GM-ing, running tourneys, playtesting for GDW and FASA and designing scenarios, I got involved with Task Force Games, and designed a couple of card games for them in the pre-Magic days, as well as proofing, testing and changing rules in Star Fleet Battles. I have goodly experience in developing logical rule sets.

While I realize that this forum is a more of a Linux mindset than a Wintel one, I would prefer to design the ruleset (with stepped implementation), and bring it to a quick vote for test implementation. Designing this by committee would likely take longer and be less efficient. That is not to say that I am an autocrat. While I would certainly post the rules in progress and debate the points & suggestions, I think it best that one person draft the rules. I believe that having a lead designer would expedite implementation of a test, as variables will need to be be tested and refined as Kal-El is doing in DYP.

I am willing to design the ruleset. What I would like before I begin is for someone of authority to post a poll on this subject. If more people prefer the method this thread has been discussing for the last month, I will not waste my time. If people like my concept better, then I will begin to flesh out my initial proposals.

I do agree that we will need web/database tools for final implementation, but I believe we could run a couple of tests on the honor system. After all, only the very insecure would fudge their numbers on a playtest. We should run tests in each era, and can load any game we like to run those tests.

I await guidance.

Strider:
you should get this guy for the rpg-helpers ;-)
urgently!

Originally posted by Kault
Thanks for your second, Disorganizer. It's always comforting to have the support of a diety.

Let me tell you a little bit of history, and what I'm willing to do to help. I got involved with Traveller, a sci-fi RPG back in 1977. After GM-ing, running tourneys, playtesting for GDW and FASA and designing scenarios, I got involved with Task Force Games, and designed a couple of card games for them in the pre-Magic days, as well as proofing, testing and changing rules in Star Fleet Battles. I have goodly experience in developing logical rule sets.

While I realize that this forum is a more of a Linux mindset than a Wintel one, I would prefer to design the ruleset (with stepped implementation), and bring it to a quick vote for test implementation. Designing this by committee would likely take longer and be less efficient. That is not to say that I am an autocrat. While I would certainly post the rules in progress and debate the points & suggestions, I think it best that one person draft the rules. I believe that having a lead designer would expedite implementation of a test, as variables will need to be be tested and refined as Kal-El is doing in DYP.

I am willing to design the ruleset. What I would like before I begin is for someone of authority to post a poll on this subject. If more people prefer the method this thread has been discussing for the last month, I will not waste my time. If people like my concept better, then I will begin to flesh out my initial proposals.

I do agree that we will need web/database tools for final implementation, but I believe we could run a couple of tests on the honor system. After all, only the very insecure would fudge their numbers on a playtest. We should run tests in each era, and can load any game we like to run those tests.

I await guidance.

Actually I don't think a poll is needed. Most people will say yes without even reading it. Also it will take out more time which we are limited too. We are meaning to get the first version out by the start of the new game, but we got backtracked with the bank standard and it is going slow right now. If you are willing to design the ruleset I will be happy to add you to are team. I was trying to design some rules, but I lack the knowledge to do it. Also I forgot about it and it got lost somewhere on my computer.

Well, after much brain racking, the little voice inside my head and I have come up with the FINAL standard for the RPG.
*dadadadadadadummmmm*

10GPT standard pay

+5 for pres

+4 for Leader and Vice Pres

+3 for Deputies, chatreps and govonors

+2 for non-goverment poistions(IE: Citizen regisry, Citizen Honors)

+2 for Honored Citizens

+1 for mayors and other low goverment poistions.

This, of course, will be in effect for the second game. But a small pension will be for people from this game.

Pension: for this game
Using the previously stated gpt chart, find how many GPT you would make for this game. Take this and tripple it. For one turn, place this in your bank.
NOTE: This is only for people who would have earned more then 10gpt.

now let the debate begin on what is a low government position!

I know I made it up, but what is a low goverment poistion?

u no how i wuz head of r&d, asphinxia.
thats a low gov positon
we could give group leaders that extra 1 gpt
ne other ideas?

isnt the standard payment much too high? nobody would work for this little extra... :-((
it would be like in germany with social welfare where many ppl just dont want to work because they would earn less than they get from the welfare...

Originally posted by disorganizer
isnt the standard payment much too high? nobody would work for this little extra... :-((
it would be like in germany with social welfare where many ppl just dont want to work because they would earn less than they get from the welfare...
I would. Well...I'd obviously do it without any pay as I did the last 5 terms ;). But we're talking a pay increase of 30% to 50% for officials. That's a pretty good incentive IMHO.

btw:
citizen censues etc will be government positions next term, but only low governmental positions...

i still hope someone comes up with an acceptance poll proposal for all appointed officials (offices, mayors etc.)

that means a person with more than one citizen honors would get an extra +2 gold. for a person like me i would get 18 gpt. \

10 standard

3 for deputy position

4 for citizen honors (I have 2)

and 1 for mayor (I am Mayor of Civanatoria)

what about the rank of the honour? will a citizen with the 1st rank get the same money than one with the 4th?
will the money be added when having multiple positions?

Just a quick note to let you know that I am in the process of laying out the ruleset as discussed recently. I will post a preliminary for comments when it is presentable.

well,
for one thing, we are going to be creating new honors. people with addons will get an extra, say 1gpt?
Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds (i just coppied that directly) would get an extra 2gpt (that is the top honor, rite?)
What ruleset are you talking about, Kault?

Kault is making the rules for us. Also stuck the highest one is golden oakleaves, swords and diamonds.

okay. i need the lists of prices from everyone.
Plus, is the capitol going to be Berlin or another name?

It's going to be named by the president. So it's going to be another name.

@stuck: golden oakleaves, swords and diamonds ;-)
btw: when do you get rid of your mac ;-P

and another:
did you notice the ranks of our honour system perectly match the german nation we will propably take? they were derived from german honour system ;-)

o yea....
still a mac
always gonna b a mac
but ill hav a pc

another point:
we have offices with a head and helpers. the head has much more work as he is maintaining the thread of the office and has the responsibility.
he should get more money than the helpers.
also, the head of an office should get less money than a mayor.

PM me with any ideas. Unless many people change their mind, this is the standard.
Besides, we have till September 1st.

10GPT standard pay

+5 for pres

+4 for Leader and Vice Pres

+3 for Deputies, chatreps and govonors

+2 for non-goverment poistions(IE: Citizen regisry, Citizen Honors)

+2 for Honored Citizens

+1 for mayors and other low goverment poistions.



10+1(R&D)+1(Mayor, Mokra)+2(bank head)+3(nuova terra)= 17
17x3= 51gold extra to start with.
Hey, i get an auto extra 2gpt due to the bank!

Okay, no honors

Stuck the asphinxian ball honors don't give you the 2 GPT. Sorry to break it to you, but only the real one's will. (I'm going to figure out mine)

10+4+2+2+4+1 = 21

Yeah, sorry 'bout that SAaM, we get the honours in the hall of fame, but they don't pay.

Was there a poll on the system? If no i would like to set up a PI on this issue :-P

No, to get serious:
we should work out 2-3 different systems and get them to a poll. We will loose participants in the RPG if we dont get general acceptance.
You noticed here that there are voices (including mine) thinking that maybe the differences arent high enough ;-)

For one of the options, I'd like to see one without the accumulation of income. Perhaps a larger bonus for the job titles but only one bonus no matter how many side jobs a person has.

we've already been through this!!! We hashed it out and this was the model we came up with after some citizen polling and alot of discussion.

josh: there was a general citizen poll to implement it, but i cant remember a poll about the payconcept.
as we discussed 3 conecpts here and all 3 were discussed over and over, maybe the best thing would be to really put it up for poll (if not done already) upon the conecpts being talked thru here.
i also second shaitan in the higher monthly income, no doublicate income request.

the moral of the story:
NEVER annoy the justice system..
okay.
this is the SaaM proposal.
i need a few more proposals.
First post them here. then pm it to me.
these will be voted on. if quorm (using the 2/3 of 57 census) is reached, the winning proposal will be implimented.
if not, this one wull be used (due to sheer lasiness)
okay.

(I got bored)

5 standard pay

+5 for pres

+4 for vice pres and leader

+3 for deputies & govonors

+2 for chat reps, honored citizens, non-goverment poistions, and SOME low goverment poistions(mayors)

+1 for low-goverment poistions

+1 for each term a person holds a certain goverment poistions(leaders, deputies, pres, & vice pres.)(This does not count once a new game starts)

Pension:

A person's pension is decided when a person announces his retirment. Their pay is then divided in half from their old pay.

How much do mods get? j/k

A mod can be counted as a +2 low goverment poistion :)

u forgot an important thing:
govs and mayors.
the senate weilds some power, dont forget ;)

Forgot all about the govs and mayors!!! I'll edit it right now!!

also, how would you do pension for the last game?

i like my system (find what you would earn this game, x3, add to your 20 g base)

Yes that does sound nice... mind if I steal it?(j/k... I'll see if I can come up with something)

its fine if u do.
Anyways, this is supposed 2 be a thread 2 develope it. Ur my boss and im just the head of a department...
the head of a money filed, rpg destiny determining department...

i still propose polling about some different system flavors... only few people participated in here

What would my pay be? look at sig.

and im opposed to pensions carrying over from this game to the next... next game is a new world in a new nation.

I know am still the agent next game. I think the officer as well. I just wanted to know what my pay would be if this game was still in operation.

i answered to stucks pension for old game question/answer?

you people need to do it. not me.

@dis- c'mon. i like idea. it gives the previous players a reward for their work.

stuck: we are rewared by the victory party -P
we should use a plain start to also give newbies a equal chance. its hard enough to compete against hight post-counts on the left. if some can start bribing it will get awfull ;-)

tru.
okay then
we wont multiply it
17 gold extra.. *sigh*

yes. im also disappointed. my pension time was just too short. maybe i will retire in turn 3 at the next game ;-)

I will always have my 20+ GPT.... Even when I retire(even if that means I have to get up to 40 something)

another bug:
non government positions should get less money than government positions imho... you see theres still much to discuss and much dispute about some points.

if the census, for example, is done right, this is work for 2-3 hours a day!
also mapmaking is a nerving job.

Hey being stuck is a hard job also!! He's not only banker, but he's also working on the demogame RPG site.

It's quite easy being me.... Citizen Honors manager, Science Leader, Demogame RPG manager, Mayor of Tsingtao, Founder of the IDA (THe list goes on)

i know... but i just wanted to point out that we really should have a poll on the different models.
and yes, being stuck with a mac really IS a big job *rofl*

So what is the status of this idea? Will it be ready for the next game? Will I get my pension?:D

Originally posted by eyrei
So what is the status of this idea? Will it be ready for the next game? Will I get my pension?:D

No you will not get your pension :)

Something tells me that no one gets a pension.

Not from this game... no

Originally posted by Strider


No you will not get your pension :) WHAT!!!

Originally posted by eyrei
WHAT!!!

I was joking :)

good. also, try playing in a 1.29 world with only 1.17.
1.21b froze my entire machine.
the pension will most likly be somewhere between x 1 and x 1.5

currently, i dont care about any pi's i may run into while doing this, because i know if i do, i have a small plug i can pull to ruin the rpg *laughs evily*
j/k
but seriously, justice department. let me do my own thing.

Ok first off:

I need all of my Demogame RPG helpers to get a move on.... were slightly behind and we need to get this done. PM me your items/prices immediantly. If you do not get them to me soon I'll have to pm you once again to get them to me. If you fail that then more drastic measure's will be taken.

Also.... Soon I am going too post a Demogame RPG Summary. It will describe what is going on. Once it is out everyone please read it.

saying were late is like saying the GL dosent help militaristic civs.
we need these lists NOW.
the real-estate list has been recieved. the standard has been set (mine-the 10g base)
the bank will start you with a 20g account.
please work on your pension. remember- x1.5 and round up if you get a .5
please, i need these lists
that is all

SAaM, could you clarify please? Are all game 1 retirees getting a pension to start game 2?

Also - are you setting up economics? I'm planning to start up a habidashery in G2.

@shai
game 1 retieries multiply by 2.continues multiply by 1.5

also- yes. give strider a price list, he'll send it to me and you will have your own page in the RPG site (my own doing)

Can you post the official pay scale that we'll be using? I looked back in the thread to try to find what to use and it's confusing as all get out. Will there be a poll for different systems?

How developed will economics be? What's needed for a price list?

10GPT standard pay

+5 for pres

+4 for Leader and Vice Pres

+3 for Deputies, chatreps and govonors

+2 for non-goverment poistions(IE: Citizen regisry, Citizen Honors)

+2 for Honored Citizens

+1 for mayors and other low goverment poistions.

This, of course, will be in effect for the second game. But a small pension will be for people from this game.

Pension: for this game
Using the previously stated gpt chart, find how many GPT you would make for this game. Take this and multiply it by one point five. Round up if you get a decimal. If you are retireing (please post if so), multiply by 2. For one turn, place this in your bank.
NOTE: This is only for people who would have earned more then 10gpt.
Starting Balance- 20gold

Will someone calculate my pension for me?
Why do i get more pension if i retired? So should i do so now before the game ends?

5 terms head of chat office
3 terms head of geographic society
2 terms mayor of delphi
4 terms head of census office (retired now)
4 terms honored citizen (highest possible rank now. i was honoured 3 times)

i think that was all except the citizen group memberships.
almost forgot:
4 terms high priest of the one.

dont retire! it will make my life boring! no one will say to me that my threads are invalid!
umm...
10+20+12+2+32+16+4=96?!?
times 1.5
144+20=
Starting balance of 164

wow! i will never say your threads are invalid again if im paid so much for it! if you pay me more i will even state they are totally valid!

who will calculate all those things and where can we signup for the rpg? i hope we will get a governor into the first province supporting rpg. i will maybe start of as mayor again and i will surely completely support it (any fun factor is good!)

Maybe next engame, we could pay soldiers for fighting for us ;-)

But i think some of the values are wrong...

32=census office? 4 terms of census should be 8 not 32
16=honours? how come? i think it should be 8 (or is it somehow added with the other honours?)
4=priest? no. only citizen group position. do they get something? i had many leader positions in citizen groups founded by myself ;-). and i think its no good idea to get money for those in the rpg.

you sign up for the census (do that for me and ill throw in some extra gold) (j/k, strider)

and as for your corrections, thanks for pointing them out.
low gov is for leader of group only.
8, oh yea, i even wrote that.
honors- remember- your part of the highest class, so its 3gpt. sorry, thats 12.
can you recalculate your pay? its still alot.

ok. so how will a "valid" citizen group be determined? as any1 can found themselves unlimited numbers of groups (i lead about 10-12 if i look close, most of them were 1 dayers).

they hav 2 be registered. n they need 2 be operating 4 a week.
y do i hav a feeling ill be doing more politics wise now for the sake of the rpg?

Originally posted by disorganizer
ok. so how will a "valid" citizen group be determined? as any1 can found themselves unlimited numbers of groups (i lead about 10-12 if i look close, most of them were 1 dayers).

A group that has a registered leader has registered their citizens group in the registry. THEN the citizens group will get a ? GPT (depending on how many turns it has been alive). They can then use they GPT for differant stuff(Of course their will be rules that the citizen group has to follow otherwise they will lose their GPT)

Ok, but i think the leader should only get 1 gpt for the first position and not get the sum of all his leader positions of groups, as this would lead to an inflation of citizen groups imho.

like: if you are a leader of any citizen group, you get 1gpt. if you are in 2, good. you still get only 1gpt for it.

will also split leadership between citizens ;-)

Well actually if you noticed I said that the citizens group would have some rules it had to follow. You just describe one ;)

Ah! you see i miss info ;-)

T1
Base- 10
Leader- 4

T2
Base- 10
Leader- 4
Honor- 2

T3
Base- 10
Leader- 4
Honor- 4

T4
Base- 10
Leader- 4
Honor- 4

T5
Base- 10
Leader- 2 (1/2 term)
Non-gov't- 1 (1/2 term)
Honor- 4

Equals: 83
Times 1.5 = 125
Plust starting balance (20) = 145

Is that right?

What are the startup costs for a haberdashery? Am I in the black?

Shaitan.... you just managed to confuse me.

Please don't post that again :)

All departments are overlooked by me
Departments:
Sales (lead by BCLG)
Transportation (lead by trader/warrior)
Bank (lead by Stuck_as_a_mac)
Entertainment (lead by almightyjosh)
Real Estate (lead by Zarn)
Food (lead by Ehecatl Atzin)

Website designers:
Strider (I did VERY little... don't know much HTML)
Stuck_as_a_mac(main website designer)
Chieftess(I believe CT is going to do some of the real complex crap that me and stuck can't figure out)

Rules designs
Kault (I believe he offered to make the rule designs.... if not I will get to work on them)

Current state of progress
Website design- on hold waiting for department lists
Ruleset design- No conformation
Food department-Was sent a grocery list before the pricing was laid out so it had no prices. Still waiting for the last draft.
transportation department-Currently being worked on.
Sales department-currently being worked on[/I]
Bank-Complete
Entertainment-No conformation from almighty on what he plans to do.
Real Estate-No conformation

We are currently working are hardest to get things done. If you have any comments/suggestions we are all open.

Please Join Us!!! PM me for more details!!!

re-site design..
hey.. im tryin to learn flash.
and im glad to see this here. it helps.
still need prices

The next summary I'm going to include the department lists and bank standard etc. that should help even more.

strider- your on non-visible mode. its hard to get the standards when i cant see if you're on are not. please put it back on

SAaM dont get to complicated make sure the basics will work first we dont neeeeed a flash site but we do need a site that works

Sorry.... I was getting pm flood.... I will turn it back on right now :)

thats what im building right now.
check the geocities site under this name.

Originally posted by Strider
Shaitan.... you just managed to confuse me.

Please don't post that again :)

Mine isn't quite as long, but just as confusing...


Term 1: Domestic Leader and VP
Term 2: Domestic Leader, VP and President (for a week)
Term 3: Domestic Leader (this one is easy)

How do you calculate terms where you held more than one position? Keep in mind when I was VP I was also domestic leader at the same time, as it was not set up like we have it now...:confused:

Originally posted by Strider
Shaitan.... you just managed to confuse me.

Please don't post that again :)
If it's confusing you and you're comfortable with the system, imagine how confusing it is to us common folk trying to figure this out.

This works like a real pension system! Nobody understands how it works, and so a special office is implemented to calculate the pensions for the people...
Im satisfied ;-) because we want to "imitate" real life as good as possible and we really managed that :-P
*just joking around folks!*

Of course i would really prefer ALL pensions being calculated by a office. That was the real part of my joky comment.

okay- who wants to head that office?
*everyone turns and looks at the lone mac user*
guess thats me...

okay- who wants to head that office?
*everyone turns and looks at the lone mac user*
guess thats me...

ive made a transportation list that includes boeng 747 and snowmobiles

What about spacecraft, Fighter Jets, Submarines, and Amphibious vehicles? Or even the Pyro GX ;) hey it may only seat one, but BOY does it have Performance. Also related are the Pyro GL, the Pheonix, the Magnum, and the Black Pyro. I'm just about as obsessed with Descent as I am with Civilization.

great..
send a copy to me and to strider

What are the price lists based on? Are they being developed independently? I mean, are we going to end up with a star fighter and a box of cabbage costing the same amount?

indepentendly..
however, the base pay pays for some things and some things need to be saved up for.
ie- you wont be able to buy a star fighter on your first turn, unless you have a pension similar to that of dis (see previous page)

What I mean is we need an established base cost structure so things can be priced in the same realm. Something like:

round trip ticket to Apolyton: 1000
jet fighter: 100
small house: 10
horse: 3
dinner at chez snob: 2
custom t-shirt from Tibu Teak (tm): 1

That way we can have some kind of reference for creating new price lists.

I am still confused,:confused: Would someone please calculate my pension for me, and yes, I am retired.

Term 1: Domestic Leader and VP
Term 2: Domestic Leader, VP and President (for a week)
Term 3: Domestic Leader (this one is easy)

4+4+4+4+5+4=
25x2 (retired)=
50 gold pension

edit-
25+5=30
30x2=60

pending honors dont count. only those in effect

Term 1: Foreign Minister, Mayor
Term 2: Foreign Minister, Mayor, Honors
Term 3: Council At-Large, Mayor, 2 Honors
Term 4: Council At-Large, Chief Justice, Mayor, 2 Honors
Term 5: Chief Justice, Mayor, 2 Honors

Term 1: 4+1 = 5
Term 2: 4+1+2 = 7
Term 3: 4+1+4 = 9
Term 4: 4+4+1+4=13
Term 5: 4+1+4 = 9

Total: 5+7+9+13+9 = 43

Retired (x2) = 86

Is that correct?

Originally posted by Stuck_As_a_Mac
Term 1: Domestic Leader and VP
Term 2: Domestic Leader, VP and President (for a week)
Term 3: Domestic Leader (this one is easy)

4+4+4+4+5+4=
25x2 (retired)=
50 gold pension

Ok. Now does Archbishop of the One for 4 terms count as anything? I also have an honor pending, which seems to have been forgotten about...:(

Plus, I was the mayor of Eyr for 5 terms.

yup. now when ever the census comes round, remember to input that into the data (to make my life easier)

while im at it-
Term 4- R&d, gov, head bank, mayor
1+3+2+1=7
Term 5- gov, mayor, head bank
6
7+6=13
13x1.5=19.5
round up- 20gold

ehh.. ill throw in a loophole for myself later on (j/k, i hope)

if any mod is watching can this thread be moved to the new forum before this forum gets put in the archive please as its very helpful

Originally posted by BCLG100
if any mod is watching can this thread be moved to the new forum before this forum gets put in the archive please as its very helpful

Done. However, please let me know when you have extracted all the info you need so we can archive this with the rest. I would like a clean break from the last game.

ok i think strider is writing up a report would it be possible if you know made my smugglers thread stickey please http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30224

Originally posted by BCLG100
ok i think strider is writing up a report would it be possible if you know made my smugglers thread stickey please http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30224 We'll be using a sticky registry/index so the individual threads won't need to be sticky.

but then wouldnt it make it harder for people to see the threads? if they get bumped down a bit plus my thread might get quite busy it depends how many people have a darker side ;)

The reference to it will always be there in the index so people can find it when they're looking for it. This way, the successful threads stay at the top, slow ones sink. Survival of the fittest. ;)

The alternative would be to sticky everybody's thread which would lead to the same thing.

okay i understand well im not gonna let my thread sink even if i have to type in bump every 3 days

Comment: I think this is the biggest thread the demogame has ever seen.... 13 pages dang.


.

Everyone: First off.... We can't have stuck do EVERYTHING. That's my job :).
Also I can assure you that me and my elite(did I say elite? I mean vetern :)) team is working as fast as possible to get this up and running. If you have any comments/suggestions be free to post them.

well i support striderin what hes doing but im not sure if its possible to be mod in just one forum

Here's the way that I want the Demogame RPG sub-forum to look like(mods you can ignore it if you want, but atleast think about it):

Sticky: All index threads created by shaitan will be stickied.(Compliments of Shaitan)
Sticky: Demogame RPG Main Office
Sticky: Demogame RPG voulanteer thread
Sticky: Any other threads deemed nessacary(possibly this thread.... )

The unsticky threads will include discussions, office's/department and anything else that seems to find it's way here.

To bad theirs not a half-sticky thing... where threads don't go above the sticky threads, but stay above the un-sticky threads. That will make this alot easier... oh well.

3 Stickies is okay (in addition to the indexes). You should decide on them as a group though as there has already been a request for a different main thread to be stuck.

i think the office threads should stay sticky
as it will let people able to see just how much stuff there actually is

Originally posted by BCLG100
i think the office threads should stay sticky
as it will let people able to see just how much stuff there actually is

BCLG I was thinking about that, but I decided against it for these reasons:

1) The links to the department threads are going to be in two sticky threads.

2) They are most likely to stay at the top anyway

3) I'm against having to many sticky thread in a forum. This cause's confusion and many threads get over looked because of it.