Okay,

I've got a few days off work (thanks Lunar New Year) so have got some time to make some posts on this forum. But there is more to it than just that' here is why:

I'm playing as India, Asoka, and getting killed.

The map is from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234938

I made a few changes to Tacy's WBS so there would be some empty slots for colonies, I removed Carthange, Spain, Germany, Mongols, Babylon and Ottomans; so there are twelve civs left: England, France, Rome, Greece, Vikings, Russia, Persia, India, Japan, China, Egypt and Zulus; I changed Stalin to Catherine ('cause she's prettier) I also moved Singapore to Siam, renamed Chicago Six Nations and Iforget to Gaza; and took out the land tile connecting Greece and Turkey; removed the Horses from North America; added Coal and Uranium to Australia; and I set all the AIs to Prince difficulty, colonies will be Noble ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58010/Asoka_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave )

I played once as Greece and once as Russia and won both by domination on Prince. During the course of these games I was asked about one hundred times by the AIs to declare war on India... --so thinking I needed a good fight, my third go on Tacy's map was as India.

Ouch! The first go went okay upto about 1000AD: war with Persia led to control of the Middle-East and a long term defence was set-up in the Caucasus and at Suez; the Indian Empire streched to Indo-China in the East. But all these cities, with very low population partly due to the jungles that cover South-Asia did not help the economy, and wave after wave of invaders from the west: Greeks, Romans, Vikings, French, Russians and even Zulus ultimately was too much.

A second attempt went no better. Nor the third or fourth of fifth.

So I thought maybe the minds at Civfanatics could help out?

The settings are:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoii.jpg
Victory: Domination, Conquest, Diplomatic, Time.

Since I have gone at this a few times, I know a few points,
Plenty more jungle is gonna grow around Delhi,
It is actually possible to found both Buddhism and Hinduism first.
Iron lies to the East around Northern Burma,
Copper is just across the Himalayas in Tibet.
Horses are in Persia.
France is gonna take off like a rocket.

Here is the start,
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoi.jpg

So these are some of the questions I have been pondering:
-Should India found 1, both, or neither of the first two religions?
-Should India rush Persia, they start very close?
-Should India grab the barbarian city to the East, Siam?
-What research path would be wisest? Get Archery first as the barbarians are set to raging, and they are raging. (Leave Persia alive to buffer the barbarians?
-The jungle is causing some problems, B-line for Iron Working; with a detour to grab Hunting, or Pottery?
-First build should be a mass of Warriors? A worker? A barracks?
-Asoka being Spiritual might benefit from temples and religious power... but temples can't stop Hoplites and Immortals.
-I left the Wonders alone, maybe there are some that would help?

Well, India has perished half a dozen times now; so if anyone wants to put in their two-cents, thoughts would be warmly welcomed. And thanks Tacy for this map.

Wow some nice info you have there, useful! but i have few questions and tips i think.. :)


1. why are you starting with a fast worker making your pop increase stagnant? I would start with warrior then scout then worker, but that's just me

2. why bother focusing so much on persia? just make sure you dominate the passage from persia to india and don't open borders with him. this is why i would build scout first. quickly pass through and then close the border before he can expand it. making it possible for you to meet new people and impossible for him to steal your resource rich land.

3. go east. I dunno if you have Khmer in your map but either way the land that khmer is on has a ton of great recourses. If china gets those, you'll have a tough rival, while if you can get just some of those you should be one of the most resource rich countries in the world.

4. i would go for only one religion and then spread it like hell, giving you much more power. inventing two can be useful but also problematic as you might end up with facing a lot of problems in picking which one should be your main one.

Thanks 66, I need another angle on this game as my past style is not cutting it.

I'm gonna reflect on this a bit before starting again-- but will keep this thread going until India overcomes!

1. It's still 4000 BC, so no build decisions have been made yet. I've never built a Scout before, that's an idea... but is there any reason besides goodie-huts to really explore the map, especially as I know the map now? Everyone will eventually come meet me with thier scouts or boats. Do you think it's worth building any warriors if one is gonna head for Archery ASAP? But the jungle is killing India, so a lot of workers are needed at some point. (When I played as Russia and Greece, India took it hard from the other AIs for the first half of the game but did survive and got some decent power together in the late game.)

2. Good point. This occured to me too, by leaving Persia intact it protects against barbarians and the Himalayas leave a nice narrow border to defend.

3. Khmer wasn't in, I changed Tacy's Singapore for Siam. Siam can be grabbed, but mustering an army in the East has proved to be difficult as the Europeans seem to have it out for India (French influence?, Ragnar's bribes?). Also, China will be huge later in history, so if there's anyway to mess them up it would be wise.

4. One religion makes sense.

Yes, grab a religion, get some defense (archers are fine at this stage), and (depending on how the barbs are playing out) go for both Iron Working and Masonry. With raging barbs, an early Great Wall is critical, and those jungles will stifle you.
You might even consider holding off on a Fast Worker and a few worker Techs until you're able to get rid of those jungles...
Being a Gandhi-monger myself (Noble), I generally focus on growth, development, and expansion for a while, waiting for a military Tech lead of some kind before I go a-conquering. I would recommend going for at least SOME wonders, like the Wall, Pyramids, and other directly useful stuff. The GPP's can be useful for bulbs, to gain this Tech lead.

I would beware of those nice gentlemen that start right next to you to the west ( that nice light blue border )... you know ,they have a superb UU and they like to use it.....

Seriously ,I don't like to play India on this map exactly because of that... you'll be hemmed ASAP by persia and jungle ( you'll need IW soon )

Yes, grab a religion,
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoiii1.jpg
So far so good...

You might even consider holding off on a Fast Worker and a few worker Techs until you're able to get rid of those jungles...

I don't like to play India on this map exactly because of that... you'll be hemmed ASAP by persia and jungle ( you'll need IW soon )
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoiv1.jpg
3500 BC, declare war on Persia, grab their Worker; make peace ASAP in 3300. Maybe this will slow Cyrus down a bit, and help with The Jungle. Had to get a few Techs to give the worker something to do though, then on to IW (Iron Working).
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indovi.jpg
I would recommend going for at least SOME wonders, like the Wall, Pyramids, and other directly useful stuff. The GPP's can be useful for bulbs, to gain this Tech lead.
I hope this qualifies,
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indov.jpg
Centering the map isn't going to be "directly useful" on an Earth Map I've already played twice (three-times, four, five... including several aborted goes); but at least the GPP from Stonehenge will get a Great Prophet for the Mahabodhi. The free Monuments can't hurt.

...scout...
Got a scout from the Goodie Hut in the Himalayas, so we'll see what these guys can do.

Here is the state of the world in 2300 BC; rather sorry, but I've set the speed to Epic, so if India can live long enough to get The Jungle cleared human ingenuity will prevail!
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indovii.jpg

Seriously ,I don't like to play India on this map...
So what happened? I'm giving India my best shot 'cause when I played this map as Greece and Russia it looked like Asoka had a rough go of it. [Maybe I should mention too that I trimmed a little off Vietnam, I forgot to mention that above].

Looking good, looking good lol
I'd definitely be looking at Siam, and plop a Settler right between those rivers. Then the "Wall" graphic will look cooler, once you build it :p

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoviii.jpg
At 600 BC Asoka surveys the empire and sees both opportunity and danger. The East and the West look very attractive... but ominously the Persians and Mediterranean Europeans have all adopted the same Religion!

I'd definitely be looking at Siam, and plop a Settler right between those rivers.
Done. 1575 BC Bombay is founded in what is today Bangladesh; in 185 BC Siam falls.

However the question of going East or West was decided in 215 BC when Cyrus attacked,
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoix.jpg

India was not surprised, as back in 2175 BC the Indians had antagonized the Persians, for a second time abducting their workers in a short war. Cyrus did not stand up well in the third Indo-Persian war and by 190 AD he had fallen back to his last city, Pasargadae.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indox.jpg

This however only leaves more room for the Europeans to expand. And India's army is in shambles.

It would seem wise to get an army of War Elephants together next, finish off the Persians, set up some GOOD defences in the Middle-East, then have another look at East-Asia. Plantations are going up, The Jungle is nearly cleared, Asoka can build cheap Court Houses and Temples, so if the Europeans don't invade, India will be in good shape going into The Age of Exploration. Wars have broken out in Europe, but Russia and France have remained aloof, and they are juggling with India for first, second and third in score.

The best defense is a good offense; but it would seem futile to invade Europe at this point? Crossbowmen counter Macemen I think? and with all the mountains in Northern Pakistan and Turkey, Longbowmen ought to make an invasion pretty difficult?

In this situation I'd be consolidating my holdings, filling in any gaps to make sure my border's non-porous, and buffing up defenses. (Including the (ahem) Great Wall lol)
Conquest would be taking a back seat to managing maintenance costs, exploring, and Teching...
Looks like you're doing just fine. :)

KILL THE PERSIANS!!!
No matterthe cost, kill them as soon as possible. They are sitting on the best commerce city on the map and dividing your empire in two.

KILL THE PERSIANS!!!
No matterthe cost, kill them as soon as possible. They are sitting on the best commerce city on the map and dividing your empire in two.

Sorry, was considering the Persians already dead lol
Yes, of course, finish them off (if you haven't already) :p

So what happened? I'm giving India my best shot 'cause when I played this map as Greece and Russia it looked like Asoka had a rough go of it. [Maybe I should mention too that I trimmed a little off Vietnam, I forgot to mention that above].
My experience with india was bad: OBed with Cyrus to get extra religion (was aiming for cultural ), Cyrus contacts China, cyrus bribes china and india is faced with a 2 front war while busy cutting jungle and laying cottages.... :gripe:

Your worker steal was a good move..... But I agree with reverend oats: Persians must go dowm before they bring Europeans to this fight... BtW how are the relations with China?

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxi.jpg
This line stretching from Siam to Suez is not cool. But it's only 200 AD, last game things didn't go to hell until closer to 1000.

My experience with india was bad: OBed with Cyrus to get extra religion (was aiming for cultural ), Cyrus contacts China, cyrus bribes china and india is faced with a 2 front war while busy cutting jungle and laying cottages....

Your worker steal was a good move..... But I agree with reverend oats: Persians must go dowm before they bring Europeans to this fight... BtW how are the relations with China?
China is Cautious. Maybe things will go different this time, but last game the Chinese were cool but the Europeans came in waves drawing India into unwanted North-Westward conquest. Persia will be put to rest as soon as there are enough frorces available to do so, they've snuck a settler out the backdoor of Pasargadae. It's about 800 years earlier in history than last (failed) attempt, but things are looking unsettlingly similar to that go.

In this situation I'd be consolidating my holdings, filling in any gaps to make sure my border's non-porous, and buffing up defenses. (Including the (ahem) Great Wall lol)
Sorry, the English got it (for all the use they'll get out of it).

KILL THE PERSIANS!!!
The fourth and final Indo-Persian War is fought resulting in the end of Persian Civilization.



http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxiii.jpg



One down, ten to go.



Right on schedule a European army shows up...



http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxiv.jpg



The body of water in the picture is the N-E corner of the Black Sea. Unfortunately for the Romans, their generals commited a faux pas; as their army left the safety of the Caucus Mountains, rather than following the high-ground through eastern Turkey or northern Iran to the recently conquered Persian cities, which they could have put in serious jeopardy, they decended into the deserts of the Levant where they let themselves be flanked and cut off from reinforcements and then massacred in the open by an ad hoc scrambled force of vetrans from the 4th Persian war. Following this tactical fiasco the Romans meekly accept peace.



Religion-wise things are not looking great-- but at least India has the last place Japanese on their side!



http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxvii.jpg



Though it does raise the interesting option of sacking the Hindu Holy City which ought to be either the Egyptian capital or their second city, certainly that would be lucrative; and as the Middle-east will need to be turned into a medieval fortress to resist the European onslaught that is sure to come, there would be no need to lug the army to the other end of Asia as an invasion of China would require. Holding the city might be another question, as "city-flipping after conquest" in ON. [If you've never played this option, you need to raze or capture all enemy cities with cultural influence on the tile the conquered city sits on to eliminate a high revolt chance.]


Most of The Jungle that makes India a bit of a tough start on Tacy's map is now cleared out, so barring any major strategic blunders, Asoka's people may be out of the woods now-- err --jungle. Here is the world in 1020...



http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxv.jpg



And the stats,



http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh29/civfan/Indoxvi.jpg



France is doing well, but not much can be done about that at this point in history besides doing better. China has both Rice and Gold in what would be Yunnan Province, Egypt has the Hindu Holy City, one or the other would be a a reasonable objective for the middle-ages?

Well you seem to be on the road to success, but I did have a question since I haven't tried any of the World maps yet: is Great Wall something to be skipped, since your cities fill out the map really fast? I usually play with Raging Barbarians on in Prince...and find that if I'm near some forests I can grab Bronze Working and chop Great Wall well before any barbarians are in my sights...not to mention skip silly techs like Archery and Hunting in the process. Just wondering why people don't seem to do this strategy.

Oh and as for building a Worker first...I find that having a Worker ASAP more than makes up for those first 25 turns where you aren't growing. Not only can you get started with chopping, but you hook up with food resources sooner and thus can start whipping earlier.

Thanks 66, I need another angle on this game as my past style is not cutting it.

I'm gonna reflect on this a bit before starting again-- but will keep this thread going until India overcomes!

1. It's still 4000 BC, so no build decisions have been made yet. I've never built a Scout before, that's an idea... but is there any reason besides goodie-huts to really explore the map, especially as I know the map now? Everyone will eventually come meet me with thier scouts or boats. Do you think it's worth building any warriors if one is gonna head for Archery ASAP? But the jungle is killing India, so a lot of workers are needed at some point. (When I played as Russia and Greece, India took it hard from the other AIs for the first half of the game but did survive and got some decent power together in the late game.)

2. Good point. This occured to me too, by leaving Persia intact it protects against barbarians and the Himalayas leave a nice narrow border to defend.

3. Khmer wasn't in, I changed Tacy's Singapore for Siam. Siam can be grabbed, but mustering an army in the East has proved to be difficult as the Europeans seem to have it out for India (French influence?, Ragnar's bribes?). Also, China will be huge later in history, so if there's anyway to mess them up it would be wise.

4. One religion makes sense.


Thats why i never play that map because china is so overdone. The lack of rivaling civilizations makes china a world power as soon as he invents calender (gets 1 billion different resources!)

I figured out the best way to take them out is mongolian style. Get them on your side if you can and axe rush him.. as you said yourself the longer you wait the stronger he gets :)

The body of water in the picture is the N-E corner of the Black Sea. Unfortunately for the Romans, their generals commited a faux pas; as their army left the safety of the Caucus Mountains, rather than following the high-ground through eastern Turkey or northern Iran to the recently conquered Persian cities, which they could have put in serious jeopardy, they decended into the deserts of the Levant where they let themselves be flanked and cut off from reinforcements and then massacred in the open by an ad hoc scrambled force of vetrans from the 4th Persian war. Following this tactical fiasco the Romans meekly accept peace.
This looks a exact copy of what happened to Crassus in Charrae..... ;)

About the game: China must go down... as said before, time plays to their favour.....

Mega:

You've got this one in the bag now, just keep intuiting as you have been. You'll be fine. :)
<Now off to other responsibilities... :p>

Looks like it's going well! I'm playing this "Troy's World" as Russia and it's not looking particularly difficult.

Like you I want to mod it and make it fairer, I mean look at the Persian capital, it's rubbish! Don't you think they have a really bad start position? Maybe India could do with some work too..

A massive floodplain capitol is rubbish? That thing is a serious worker/settler pump if farmed, and the whip can get early units out also, such as immortals. It's 3x better than a heavy jungle start...

Religion-wise things are not looking great-- but at least India has the last place Japanese on their side!

I don't claim to be an expert or anything, but for the religion side, you have access to Judaism, Budhism and Hinduism in your cities, and possibly more later. Has someone else gotten the Shwedagon Paya which enables all religion civics? You may want to consider changing to Free Religion which will then balance your relations by removing all the negative effects of everyone else being a different religion than you. With all the open borders you have, you should be able to foster peace with a lot of the Europeans with Religion no longer an issue. With Free Religion you get a happy face for each religion present, which right now with some missionary help would be 3 in each city, with hopefully more to come later. I found it works well because through missionaries, good producing cities can basically build happy buildings for cities starting out, and much cheaper than things like a temple or colliseum. If nothing else, you can switch over once you get the right tech and hopefully European war isn't toooo much of an issue until then. Last resort you could adopt no religion at all without Free Religion, but that's a big price to pay so unless you absolutely NEED peace... :)

Also for your city SE of Bombay, I'd move it one square south - it'll overlap a lot less with your capital none with Bombay, and you can make decent use of the good coast tiles you have there...

Personally I'd mimic the dominant religion for + diplo. A lot of peaceful leaders won't declare @ pleased. Take advantage of this to expand more, and of course bump the heathens ;).

If hindu isn't spread automatically for you (and it likely would be) you can just spread it yourself. One thing you can consider if you want to get cute though, is to quickly build the AP under budha then go hindu. This lets you spread budhism around very carefully later to set up an AP diplo win (only bother with this if you feel like it, otherwise just go Hindu and pick people off one by one keeping the non-backstabbers at least at pleased).

A massive floodplain capitol is rubbish? That thing is a serious worker/settler pump if farmed, and the whip can get early units out also, such as immortals. It's 3x better than a heavy jungle start...

There aren't any floodplains at the Persian capital ...