So, I was playing a very interesting game with the "Advanced War" mod, and the map really played to a late game war-free-for-all. Every civ but 2 started on it's own Australia sized continent. So, it was a while before we could even start shooting at each other.

Anyway, I prepared a huge invasion force to go take out Pacal II, the little nutcase, and I immediately took out his single oil production facility. Unfortunately, he was getting oil by trade and I was being attacked elsewhere, so I couldn't devote my navy to blockading all of his ports.

So, I went to the civilopedia to see what other resources his more-modern units require. I wanted the joy of crippling his war machine. But alas, imagine my surprise to see that most modern units don't even require any kind of heavy metals!

Yeah, if I take out his iron mines, he can't build swordsmen. But he can still build tanks as long as he has oil? What is their armor made out of? Turtle shells?

So, I suppose we can let riflemen and infantry slide because it doesn't take too much for gunpowder, but how about cannon or artillery. Shouldn't those require some heavy metals?

And that leads me to another gripe. I can build cannons, tanks, and planes without a factory! That's insane. In the US civil war, the confederacy was at a disadvantage, not because they built cannon's slower, but because they had almost no cannon factories at all! You just can't build those kinds of things in a blacksmith's shop.

Personally, I think that units should require buildings as well as resources. It would make espionage so much more interesting because now you would really have a desire to target certain buildings. As a side note, naval bombardments and air raids should have a chance of destroying buildings, population, and increasing war weariness.

Ok, I'm off the soap box now. Please step in and tell me how dumb these ideas are...

There is one building that already exists which exhibits a little of this behavior, the Drydock. It doubles the production speed of sea units.

One way to implement this for a mod is to make the cost of more modern units higher, and have buildings like factories increase the production speed of these units.

THe problem is it can be quite game breaking if you don't have the resources, i remember having to start several wars i didn't really want in civ 3 to require resources to build tanks and so on.

Yes, I know that the resources are essential. But you already have to fight over resources anyway. If you don't have iron early on, you just can't fight offensive wars. If you don't have oil later on, you also can't fight offensive wars, and probably won't be able to defend yourself either.

Nevertheless, I think that the other resources (heavy metals, etc) should be required. And I think buildings should be required too. For example, after you research steel, you should have to build some kind of steel refinery to convert iron into steel. If it's blown up or captured, say goodbye to cannons.

As for resource scarcity, there is an easy solution. Make resources like iron more abundant in the later game. This already happens a little bit because you can have an event where "you've discovered a source of iron near [city]". That way, you could still have one or two critical resources like oil, but still have strategic resources like iron that everybody has, but should be targets in a military action.

Yes, I know that the resources are essential. But you already have to fight over resources anyway. If you don't have iron early on, you just can't fight offensive wars...

Nothing worse than needing a resource for your UU and not having it. i.e. no iron as the romans, or in my current game, no horses for Hattie.

Also the problem here is regarding the building itself.

If you set it so that knights require a Stable for example, the Mongols will be unable to build Knights as they have the replacement building, the Ger.

This is because you can't set more than one PreReq building for a unit, and it doesn't seem to recognise replacements as being in the same type of building.

I can't find a way around this, with the possible exception of fooling around with resources, but then it just gets a little annoying.

You could for example set it so that a Stable requires horses (obvious) and give a new resource "Throughbred Horses" or whatever, and then have the Knight require that resource. However this would not tie it down to a particular city as the resources are empire-wide.


Unless I'm missing somethign blindingly obvious.

This is obviously a programming weakness.

The correct solution here is for buildings to provide certain "capabilities". For instance, a Stable or a Ger provides the "mounted military units" capability. A building can provide an arbitrary number of capabilities.

Then, units can be made to require some set of capabilities. It could be something simple like "REQUIRE: A" or more complicated like "REQUIRE: A or (B and C)".

This separation of concerns solves all of the programming problems you described. The key is, it detaches units and buildings so they don't have to be tied together explicitly. Obviously, this can't be done for Civ IV, but I hope it's done in later Civ's.

-- SJN

I don't really see a problem with modern tanks not requiring an iron resource. When your civilization has just discovered Iron Working, your mining, surveying, and smelting capabilities are not really up to snuff. Therefore, the only sources of workable iron are going to be rare deposits with large chunks of hematite laying about.

However, iron is the fourth most abundant mineral in the Earth's crust in one form or another, and a modern industrial society is going to be able to make use of far more marginal sources of iron that would've been useless to a Classical era civilization. Units stop requiring iron because it ceases to be a controllable, strategic resource.

Interestingly enough, copper is nowhere near as common in the modern world, so the idea of a country's sole supply being relegated to one or two "tiles" is realistic up through the end of the game.

Yes, so iron is abundant. Great! Make it abundant in the later game. Make it *easy* to have iron... when you're at peace time.

My point is, when you attack a large territory, you can either have a massively huge army (the stack-of-death) as it were, or you can use a much smaller army strategically.

Yes, I know, you can still go after the oil, or you can naval blockade, or you can destroy his roads, or otherwise destroy his trade network, but by having complex modern units dependent on just one resource (and no buildings), you options for strategic assault become much more limited.

All I'm saying is, I think have the fun of an invasion is crippling my opponent by assaulting strategic squares. I think in the later game, there should be more strategic locations.

imho, it's a question of gameplay vs realism. And in this category, I prefer gameplay :)

Also the problem here is regarding the building itself.

If you set it so that knights require a Stable for example, the Mongols will be unable to build Knights as they have the replacement building, the Ger.

This is because you can't set more than one PreReq building for a unit, and it doesn't seem to recognise replacements as being in the same type of building.

I can't find a way around this, with the possible exception of fooling around with resources, but then it just gets a little annoying.

You could for example set it so that a Stable requires horses (obvious) and give a new resource "Throughbred Horses" or whatever, and then have the Knight require that resource. However this would not tie it down to a particular city as the resources are empire-wide.


Unless I'm missing somethign blindingly obvious.

You could try to use the corps mechanism of Standart Ethanol or Al corp: they create a resource to that city but not empire wide. But I'm not sure that giving a corp behaviour to a building would work.....

To the OP

The fact of modern units being almost resource free ( mechs are ) is a response to the late game civ III, where too much stuff was linked to resources ( you simply couldn't win by space without Aluminium ( :gripe: ), for a quick example ( and Civ III map generator sometimes lacked one strategical resource in all of the world ) ). I agree that it isn't realistical , but the game works better this way....

The responses seem to be it works this way for gameplay, but my whole point is about the gameplay, and I'm sorry that I titled the original post for realism.

I don't like the stack-of-doom approach to conquest. It's just not my style. I prefer to cripple my opponents, and I find that easier to do in the ancient world than in the modern world. That makes no sense to me.

The common complaint is that in Civ III, you had to have *every* resource and it was hard. So, I think my solution still works. Make most resources abundant in the late world. Make just a few hard to find. Make it easy for everybody to have them. It *still* would be a strategic resource to consider at war.

Well, I suppose I just need to stop my whining and take advantage of the other strategic attacks you can use. I'll admit, I'm not super smart at blockades, and I haven't really tried cutting roads to sever resources. But still, I wish there were more ways for strategic assaults.

I wa sthinking of creating units that cost twice as much in hammers without resources but have the resources reduce it to the normal cost. that way if you lose oil you don't "forget" how to make tanks. it just takes longer.

Yeah, if I take out his iron mines, he can't build swordsmen. But he can still build tanks as long as he has oil? What is their armor made out of? Turtle shells?



I suppose it could be made out of clay. Oh, wait, it is made out of clay. I wonder if thats hard to come by...

I suppose it could be made out of clay. Oh, wait, it is made out of clay. I wonder if thats hard to come by...

for some reason this gave me the mental image of a main battle tank with Chia Pets and assorted pottery hung all over it for armor...

The image made me smile, so I give it to you.... :)

Must be Friday - it's just 10 am, and already I'm browsing the forums and thinking about trying to go home early from work...

I wa sthinking of creating units that cost twice as much in hammers without resources but have the resources reduce it to the normal cost. that way if you lose oil you don't "forget" how to make tanks. it just takes longer.

THe Germans lost their oil suplies in the 2nd WW then they had to rely on synthetic oils.

It's over here already 16:13, wife is coming home soon…

nice workday

Yes, I know that the resources are essential. But you already have to fight over resources anyway. If you don't have iron early on, you just can't fight offensive wars. If you don't have oil later on, you also can't fight offensive wars, and probably won't be able to defend yourself either.

Untrue. I've waged successful offensive wars with nothing more than Drill IV Longbows and Catapults. :)