My favourite civilisation to be in Ffh is definatly the Grigori. But, I don't know anything about them or Cassiel, except that he used to be an archangel under the service of a god, but he split after the Compact. So:

Who was Cassiel before the Compact?
What was the god he surved under called & what sphere did he command?
When was the Compact signed?

Thanks in advance.

Wyrmhero

Cassiel was the right hand/goon of the Dagda, whom I believe is the god/Angel of Metamagic. (someone correct me if I'm wrong about the metamagic part.)

The Compact, which is the agreement of the Gods not to directly interfere with Creation, was signed at the end of the Age of Dragons (it's signing ended the Age of Dragons and teh inter God war that characterised it), thus enabling the Age of Magic.

Thanks. I find it a bit odd that Cassiel was the archangel of Metamagic. Does this mean that the Grigori might start with Metamagic Mana? And why does he get the Mana he has from his Palace? I can understand Spirit, but...

Cassiel was the "archangel" (second in command) to Dagda, the God(Angel) of Balance (Force)

Cassiel is actually the one who came up with the idea for the compact, when he saw all the harm that the wars between the gods were causing. He wanted to put an end to it, and so convinced his master Dagda to gather the other neutral gods together to enforce a truce. They forged the Godslayer, and agreed to fight any angel, good or evil, who continued to fight in creation.

I believe it was shortly little after this that all the gods were convened at the Seven Pines to work out the details of the Compact and to sign it. Then they handed the Godslayer to the legendary Finner, and tasked the Order of the Elohim to guard their holy sites. This was the End of the Godswar and of the Age of dragons (dragons were banned by the compact).

However, the compact did not go far enough in the eyes of Cassiel. It didn't allow the gods to fight each other directly in creation, but they could still be involved. Their powers were limited to based on the sun total of the faith that mortals had in them. They were still free to wage war against eachother by proxy, having their worshipers destroy each other in their names.

Cassiel could not stand this. He had called for the Compact to protect humanity, but it had reduced to pawns in the Gods petty arguments, which his his eyes had nothing to do with their own interests of well being.

Thus he chose to fall, not for love of power like Agares and those angels he corrupted, but for disdain of it. He firmly believes that the angels should follow the example of The One, and stay completely uninvolved in the affairs of mortals. He himself, however, isn't completely uninvolved, since he feels that mortals need someone to lead them and stop them from falling prey to the petty ambitions of his fellow angels. Staying true to his principles, he refuses to use any abilities that a mere human could not, even when doing so would mean saving the lives of thousands (He wouldn't use his divine power to heal those dieing of the plague, but instead created the Ordine Medicos (the order of grigori medics) to heal diseases without relying on magic or prayer.


He also gave shelter to the Luonnatar, although he doesn't agree woth them on everything. The Luonnatar were a group of mortals who figured out the truth about the gods and The One, and began to worship the one in secret. Since they "blasphemed" both good and evil gods, they were persecuted in all societies. However, their faith in The One miraculously saved them from magic both arcane and divine. Once a group of them was captured by Order Priests, who decided to execute them by tieing them so a stake and calling own fire from heaven to consume them in the center of a crowded town square. It came, but burned only the ropes binding them, letting them walk away unharmed to the shock of all the on lookers. They found shelter among the Grigori, although Cassiel himself disapproved of them worshiping the one; he personally believes that The One doesn't want to be worshiped, and that men should rely wholly on their own strength. He will not, however, allow a minor religious difference like this to escalate into conflict.

This was the End of the Godswar and of the Age of dragons (dragons were banned by the compact).

Semi-OT, does anyone know who Eurabatres & Abashi worked for during the Godswar? I know Acheron was Bhall's, and I assume Abashi belonged to Agares, but I'd like some comfirmation, if any exists :)

Thanks. I always knew I liked Cassiel for a very good reason, and now I know. :D

Semi-OT, does anyone know who Eurabatres & Abashi worked for during the Godswar? I know Acheron was Bhall's, and I assume Abashi belonged to Agares, but I'd like some comfirmation, if any exists :)


I don't know for sure, but I'm tempted to say that they were the dragons of the Gods/sphere their civ's represent. If so, then Eurabatres is the dragon of Amathaon (creation), and Abashi is the Dragon of Ceridwen (Dimensional).

I don't know for sure, but I'm tempted to say that they were the dragons of the Gods/sphere their civ's represent. If so, then Eurabatres is the dragon of Amathaon (creation), and Abashi is the Dragon of Ceridwen (Dimensional).

Cultuum is correct on all counts (as usual). The only correction I would make to the above is that a mortal is limited by his faith in his ability to channel divine power. But the gods are not limited by faith, nor are they more or less powerful based on their amount of worshippers. That reminds me of the gods of the Forgotten realm (where gods can appear or dissapear based on worship).

The gods of Erebus are bound by a laberinthine codex of laws in the Codex, of which the channeling of powers through mortals is only a small part. Although in general it can be said that a god has more pull in an area with strong worshippers.

Kilmorph would not be allowed, for example, to simply destroy a city full of people she didn't like with an earthquake. But she would be able to slowly erode the ground under that city for centuries until it eventually collapses. Even more she would be able to place ore under the city and entice the greedy men of the city to mine it out without regard to the potential danger. Then when eventually a priest of kilmorph stands on the hill above the city and looks down, channeling his faith and power for it to be destroyed that last straw would be broken and the city would fall.

Hopefully that distinction makes sence.

He himself, however, isn't completely uninvolved, since he feels that mortals need someone to lead them and stop them from falling prey to the petty ambitions of his fellow angels. Staying true to his principles, he refuses to use any abilities that a mere human could not, even when doing so would mean saving the lives of thousands (He wouldn't use his divine power to heal those dieing of the plague, but instead created the Ordine Medicos (the order of grigori medics) to heal diseases without relying on magic or prayer.

I think Cassiel's involvement with humanity (despite his belief that the gods should not) has the potential to lead to some corruption of his basic nature. I get the feeling from the lore that the perils of this world is that taking things to extreme can have oft-disastrous circumstances. Cassiel's walk on the fine line makes him all the more interesting.

Yeah, it makes him really hard to write for too. In the D&D games he was spoken about more than directly used (Branding, the first adventurer that the Grigori usually create, was who interacted with the party most of the time). And I went around and around before I got his pedia entry to a state I liked.

I think he only speaks 3 times in that pedia entry and doesn't take any significant action. But it still manages to capture who he is. Just like you say he has to walk a very fine line.

It was important to me that when he shelters Elizabeths father he doesnt give him anything. He just allows Elizabeths father to change his own life. He gives him a new name, and allows him to be reborn much as Cassiel has, but the choice and the effort belong to Elizabeths father. The Bannor may rush in and rescue you, Cassiel only offers the opportunity to rescue yourself.

I've never gotten Branding before. I keep getting Bhalira or Groo :p

Yes, complex characters are always difficult to write for. I think therein lies Cassiel's (and by extension, the Grigori's) appeal. I wonder if Cassiel and Cardith Lorda would have been great friends, or at least cordial, given the nature of their inclusive societies and similar outlooks on running cities (i.e. laissez-faire meritocracies...)

That said, I always raze the Kuriotates cities early, in case they become uber-powerhouses :lol:

I don't think Cassiel would like Lorda very much though, because the boy-king is possessed by/one with a Dragon who is trying to circumvent the rules of the compact. This is the most powerful being ever created by not anyone but The One trying to manipulate a young boy so that he can re-inter creation and would then probably directly use his unmatched power restart the Godswar, returning the world to the chaos of the age of dragons (unless of course he manages to immediately win against the forces of evil, in which case humanity would likely be subject to the tyranny of the "good" gods). The boy-king already rules a totalitarian (albeit benevolent) theocratic society (he is clearly described as a God-King) and to use his super natural knowledge and power to interfere in human affairs. Kuriotates society may be inclusive and diverse, but it is held together in a way that Cassiel would not approve of.


I usually assumed that Cassiel and the Grigori would get along best with the Elohim. Surly he must have a great deal of respect for Immanuel Logos, and probably his successors. After all, Immanuel abandoned the service of his goddess (Sirona) to take care of the orphans of those who were slain in the gods' senseless conflicts, regardless of whom they worshiped. He saw the damage that even Sirona and her angels had personally caused, despite their good intentions, and would not be any less benevolent to those who had fought for her great enemy, Aeron. Of course, the Goddess of Spirit and Wisdom approved of this decision, since it was was the wise and kind thing to do, so you could argue that he never really left her service when he abandoned the signs of her divine authority. Still, he took the initiative and trusted in his own ability (and the ability of the other mortals he could convince to join him) to make the world a better place, and he wouldn't let religious differences get in the way. Assuming that the Elohim continue his legacy (as the civilopedia says they do), I see no reason why Cassiel and Einion shouldn't be great friends and allies.


Obviously, Cassiel's greatest enemies would be Hyborem and Basium. I'm not sure whom he'd hate more; he probably considers them to be equally bad, but would more strongly oppose which ever ones is strongest at the time.

Yeah, Cassiel always argued that Basium and Hyborem were the same. An example he used to prove that fanatism was bad in any extreme. That if you moved far enough down the spectrum toward either side you looped back around to the other side. Oddly Basium and Cassiel were the two archangels that split from their lords because of the compact, Basium because it was to restrictive, Cassiel because it wasnt restrictive enough.

Cassiel actually is friends with and has a huge respect for Sabathiel and Brigit. Philisophically he is almost completly opposed to everything Sabathiel believes in (Cassiel doesn't like Junil) but the two have always been odd friends. Cassiel is particuarly impressed with the fact that Sabathiel went into hell to rescue the people trapped there.

Brigit the Shining is Bhall's archangel and she refused to fall with her queen. So Bhall imprisoned her in the frozen northern wastes. Cassiel loves that example, liking the fact that it is about devotion to a true righteous cause regardless of the consequences. The conquest of personal philosophy vs the mandate of ones superior.

How about Cassiel's interactions with the Grigori then? I know Cassiel lets them run themselves, but beyond that simple description, I would like to know how exactly he does so. Apart from being the spiritual (not sure if that is the right word to use in this regard) figurehead, does he also make recommendations or suggestions as to certain Grigori policies?

In fact, how do the Grigori run their society? Is it a republic? Classical democracy? Loose agglomeration of peoples? Because a gathering of people can only occur so long before issues of law and order arise. I'm pretty sure not all inhabitants and adventurers are willing to play nice.

The Grigori have a government based on the teaching of Cassiel. He is an incrediably influential part of the government but tried to set it up to run without him. In that regard he is more like the queen of england on steroids with little real political power but enough influence to get anything he wants done if he decides to use it. Even the army is decentralized (and often disorganized, adventurers are officially in the army but do pretty much what they want unless called on).

Cassiel understands that pragmatism and anti-fanatism are not enough to base a government on. And just as you say a society has to have a method to resolve disputes. The actual Grigori empire was feudal. But the assignment of feudal lords (better put as representatives, but there was no vote) was based on moderation and a desire to allow each individual to determine his own philosophy. Cassiel was fond of making farmers representatives for an area (he actually just loved farmers in general, which was a common job because of the lands they occupied), and didnt like specialists, professional politicians, or those with an agenda. In his mind the perfect government was the one that already existed when a small community came together on a monthly basis to talk about issues, as long as it was without bias. He tried to create that on a larger scale.

Cassiel preferred to interact on the small scale, make a meaningful difference in an individuals life. But he doesnt see much use in big plans that try to do the same on a global scale. Someone trying to setup public healers across the empire would be knocked down. Regardless of the plan the Grigori want help from their neighbors, not their government. Even an ailing family may ask their representative for help, he would put the request to his community and if no one helped then there would be no help. Of course this tends to incline neighbors to help out, especially since they know that someday they may need the help in return, but their is no governmental mandate for support.

The representative can make requests for help to higher levels of the governmental hierarchy, but outside of major issues (war, etc) this is rare and higher ups follow the same practice of moderation and requests for help as the lower levels.

Because of this the "true" Grigori aren't military or technology leaders. They would be great producers of food and that would form the bulk of their economy. Even to the point of shying away from to many specilized merchants, traders and grocers. Though those that did go into those roles (as well as the craftsmen jobs) were typically immigrants from other lands.

Should Philisophical be a trait for them then? I understand how Cassiel is a very philisophical sort, and would have to be to hold his own position on the compact, but would he lead in a way that the "Philisophical" trait implies It kind of pushes the Grigori into an economy dominated by well, specialists, and while maybe I have the wrong picture here, I always kind of pictured a SE as being large number of serfs/peasants providing for the support of the artist/scientist/merchant elite who controlled most of the GDP etc etc etc. It would seem to me that a town based economy, where everyone comes together on more or less equal terms, would fit the Grigori better.


(Although at the moment I can't really think of anything better for a second trait.........)

Could be interesting to make him an "Anti-Sidar" style. All specialists produce LESS output, but every standard tile is worth an extra production or commerce (I would say food since the value on farming, but that would again lead to many specialists).

He's philosophical just because of the synergy between that and adventurer units. If it wasn't for that he would have a different trait.

In fact even with being philosophical the Grigori probably produce less prophets, sages, artists, engineers, merchants and commanders than ny other civ (because they mroe commonly swap their points for adventurers).

Then I really second the idea of Xienwolf's to make all of their specialists more puny. -1 to all the things the Sidar are +1 at.


Edit. Total Side point. How big is Cassiel? Odio's Prison, and the little figure for Hyborem. (I can't seem to remember what Bassium looks like) seems to indicate that the angels are pretty big..... Is Cassiel of extra human dimensions? (I always picture him as human sized for some reason)

On the subject of Hyborem:

Is Hyborem a fallen angel? If not, how can he enter creation without breaking the Compact?

HE is breaking the compact, i think.

He is an archangeal of agares, and i don't think agares gives a damn about the compact.

As I understand it, Thomas is right. But that begs the question: Why aren't the Neutral Gods kicking the crap out of them (Basium & Hyborem) like the Compact says they are supposed to? I thought they were the enforcers.

I'm not claiming this to be a definitive answer, but I think the answer lies in the fact that they can't enter Creation without breaking the compact themselves, which makes them vulnerable to the Godslayer, which is currently of unknown whereabouts and quite possibly in the hands of the seemingly immortal and unpredictable Kylorin, who has already offed one of their "brothers". They might simply be too nervous to go themselves.......

On the subject of Hyborem:

Is Hyborem a fallen angel? If not, how can he enter creation without breaking the Compact?

Archangels and other true angels enter creation all the time. Basium, Brigit, Cassiel, Taranis, Splendor. Cernunnos was running around in creation during the Age of Ice, though he ascended when he became a god.

It isn't their ability to manifest in creation that is limited, but their powers once they are here. Sabathiel was greatly weakened by his passage through hell and he is recovering in his sanctuary between creation and the vault of Junil.

Archangels and other true angels enter creation all the time. Basium, Brigit, Cassiel, Taranis, Splendor. Cernunnos was running around in creation during the Age of Ice, though he ascended when he became a god.

It isn't their ability to manifest in creation that is limited, but their powers once they are here. Sabathiel was greatly weakened by his passage through hell and he is recovering in his sanctuary between creation and the vault of Junil.


But then what stops the Gods from sending Dragons, Angels, and whatever else they conjure up in a bid to dominate Erebus without personally manifesting themselves? I thought that sort of thing was off-limits........

But then what stops the Gods from sending Dragons, Angels, and whatever else they conjure up in a bid to dominate Erebus without personally manifesting themselves? I thought that sort of thing was off-limits........

To compact is more complex than a list of do's and don't. Acheron is in Creation and Bhall hasn't broken the compact. The gods have limited effect over creation, but they can still do things, including waking their pets. But in being able to wake one pet does not mean they can send in a wave of thousands. Cernunnos may prefer to bless a grove with trees that produce sacred fruit, Aeron may prefer to release a ebast on creation and mammon may prefer to tempt the souls of men.

I never detailed the exact process. But I always imagined that the gods have a certain amount of infleunce to spend that grows slowly. They could spread it out over a thousand minor effects or produce one major one. Even a god of healing can't heal all of his injured worshippers and would have to choose from thousands of prayers which to fulfill. I heavent really thought much beyond that, but thats how I always imagined it.

It sounds from the way the Grigori empire is run that they are mechanically more inclined towards a CE. Would it be more imbalanced to implement some kind of bonus (as xienwolf suggested) to cottages? Or does the fact that polluted GP pools are enough of an impediment to make people actually want to play a CE more when it comes to the Grigori?

Actually I do not really see how Cassiel can ever succeed in his purpose. He seeks to free humanity from the grips of god-worship, yet he has no peaceful means to do so. The only way he can is to impose, martially, his world-view on them through conquest. Spreading this brand of Cassiel-philosophy comes very close to a Crusade, and always the risk of a personality-cult growing around the living angel rears its ugly head. It is almost a vicious cycle.

I did not include the Altar of Luonnotar becaus, flavour-wise, I have no idea what it does. It wins the game, but how? By banishing all the gods from Creation? Opening the window to the One?

IIRC, the Altar is supposed to dissolve the empire of the people who build it and unite them with The One, in a sort of nirvana-type existance.

I don't really think though that Cassiel has any plans of imposing his purpose, rather, I am pretty sure he believes that as more and more wars, crusades, death, hardship, etc that religion in Erebus causes, more and more rational people will simply try to escape to his Grigori shelter and leave the Gods behind. It's almost Marxist, in the sense that as long as something doesn't completely destroy or cripple the world, it ought to happen on its own. (except that I think Marx is wrong, and Cassiel might very well be right on Erebus)

I actually think it would be difficult for people to leave their faiths or paradigms for Cassiel's and the Grigori's, especially since there are living gods with living angels acting to enforce the worship. A person that has lost his faith might face the wrath of an unhappy god or his angel. Those that leave their lands for the Grigori's appear to be the exception rather than the norm.

Moreover, particular societies make it difficult to leave the herd. I would imagine that even a "good" civilisation like the Bannor would frown on a deviant from the faith, especially since their leader is an actual angel.

The more I hear about the world of Fall From Heaven, the more I wish there was a DnD supplement for it. :( Anyway...

Could be interesting to make him an "Anti-Sidar" style. All specialists produce LESS output, but every standard tile is worth an extra production or commerce (I would say food since the value on farming, but that would again lead to many specialists).

It's funny, I was playing as the Grigori earlier today as a result of the first few posts in this thread, and while doing so thought, "You know, the Grigori are the opposite of the Sidar in terms of playstyle." I don't think they need a penalty or additional bonus to reflect Cassiel's dislike of specialists. Adventurers are the Grigori's strength, and so a player will want to get as many as possible. To do this, a player also has to go out of their way to avoid getting Great People. When I play them, I almost never build any Wonders that give free GP, and my people never become specialists; each extra specialist limits my chances of gaining a much needed adventurer.

In reading Kael's description of how their society functions, I think it is a credit to the design of the Grigori in how perfectly they work as a non-specialist society. Of course, the option is still there to build specialists. I think Kael has said before that he doesn't want to force players to play a civilization a certain way (Yay for AV Sabathiel :rolleyes: ), and I think limiting GP production even further for the Grigori would force that play strategy a little too much.

Actually I do not really see how Cassiel can ever succeed in his purpose. He seeks to free humanity from the grips of god-worship, yet he has no peaceful means to do so. The only way he can is to impose, martially, his world-view on them through conquest. Spreading this brand of Cassiel-philosophy comes very close to a Crusade, and always the risk of a personality-cult growing around the living angel rears its ugly head. It is almost a vicious cycle.

I think if anything, that is what bothers me about the Grigori. For a civilization that is praised for their neutrality in the affairs of mortals, they have a very strong offensive army available to them. I find myself forcing my heroes to sit tight for RP reasons, when I could be taking over the world. A mechanic that the Grigori could build (much like the rituals the take away and add to the Armageddon Counter) that discouraged the spread of religion or something would be nice, just so they could succeed at something without the need to go to war.

Very true. As I mentioned in the actual D&D games the Grigori didn't have a strong military (in fact most fiefdoms only had volunteer untis, another reason adventurers were so popular). But that would be extremly hard to model in a Civ4 design.

Cassiel actually is friends with and has a huge respect for Sabathiel and Brigit. Philisophically he is almost completly opposed to everything Sabathiel believes in (Cassiel doesn't like Junil) but the two have always been odd friends. Cassiel is particuarly impressed with the fact that Sabathiel went into hell to rescue the people trapped there.
Reminds me of my attempt at an entry for Cassiel. Not totally consistent nor exciting, so not good suitible, but I like it anyway:

_____They had not been great friends before coming to this world, but now they shared a commonality unique in the world: having served in heaven, they now "ruled" on earth.
_____“Hello, Sabathiel. You look well, as ever.”
_____“Hello, Cassiel.” They sat in dusty old chairs, giving their surroundings little attention. They met here every year on this date. The two of them, alone, atop a lonely desert sentry tower whether they were currently allies or enemies. Sometimes thier conversations were honest and unguarded; other times they were terse and cordial. “How fare the Grigori this season?”
_____“Oh, some trouble with the horse lords of late.” He took a couple of mugs from his pack, and poured ale into them from a bottle, knowing one would sit empty. “They had quite the force gathered at our borders, until their gods convinced them to withdraw.”
_____“Really? I wasn’t aware the Hippus had acquired a religion.”
_____Cassiel held up a Grigorian coin, engraved with a hawk, free in flight. It reflected a glow from his companion. “Oh yes. They worship the small, shiny ones.”
_____Sabathiel laughed. “And you still maintain that men can find their way without divine assistance?”
_____“I thought we’d agreed to disagree. I’m wasting my people’s lives, your ruining yours.”
_____“Call me an optimist—“
_____“A meddler is more like it.”
_____“…but I still think that I can bring you around. A mortal life is, what, 300 years?”
_____“One hundred for men, if they are lucky.”
_____“It is obscene, an intelligent creature with so short a lifetime. What sense is there to their lives, if you deny them their god-given purpose? Like chaff scattered in the wind, here today, gone tomorrow, and barely remembered once gone.”
_____“An object can achieve a purpose apart from, and greater than, that for which its creator has given it.” Cassiel grew more passionate. “And for men, their very brevity inspires their search for their own purpose. They find it themselves, or search hungrily. Your gods give them an easy answer, but an unsatisfying one, for it is better a man to be an architect in his own life than a mere tool in another.”
_____“All this time, still you do not understand my Bannor men. They are not golems, nor walking corpses. They know the goals of our good gods, and have taken upon themselves their own ways to fulfill them. Our tireless crusade enables little nations such as yours to live unperturbed by the grave evils that threaten this fragile world.”
_____“They have taken upon themselves? Or you upon yourself? What would happen to this world without Sabathiel to save it?”
_____“You have no faith in men, after all your time among them?”
_____“On the contrary, it is you who have no faith in men. I alone would give them a chance to prove themselves.”
_____Sabathiel sighed, recognizing the course the conversation was taking, a course that was like a well-worn rut in the road. “We seem to argue more each year.”
_____“It is the way of this age. There are wars and rumors of wars, famines pass the lands like waves and the earth shakes. With more horrors yet to come.”
_____“That sounds like prophecy. I thought you did not believe in prophecy.”
_____“No, I merely distrust prophets. There is a difference.”
_____“Despite what comes, I pray our … friendship remains.”
_____“Then we might as well part ways now. I don’t think your gods like me very much.”
_____“Hmmm? Oh, no, it was a way of speech. I merely… wish it so.”
_____“Well then, I suppose the coming years will have this, at least, to look forward to, for there is nothing I quite respect like Sabathiel’s will.”
_____“The angel smiled and waved aside the compliment. “What is it your say? A person’s life is as he wills it?”
_____Cassiel chuckled. “Maybe it will be I who brings you around. Though to quote me properly, you should precede that line with 'Gods be damned.'”
_____“Not in this lifetime. Be well, Cassiel.” Sabathiel turned away. He walked to the nearest window and leapt out, unfurling wings of light which carried him quickly out of sight.
_____“And you, old friend. Be well.” Cassiel remained, finishing his ale, before starting down the many flights of stairs.

Angels drink alcohol? I dunno, I found that they are drinking ale hilarious for some reason.

Well, Sabathiel doesn't, and I figured Cassiel would have had some physiological changes upon losing his divine patronage, such as allowing him to digest biological matter.
And I needed something to intersperse between dialogue. It was a first draft, anyway. ;)

It is still interesting. A very quiet, reserved conversation that highlights the ideological differences between two persons that, in other circumstances, could have become great friends.

The stuff of legends.

I loved reading that, nikis.

Could you write a story where Cassiel gets drunk and starts cursing and smashing up the palace? :p

Switzerland is a nice example. They're just kinda there, and most good and evil civs leave them alone, because they have such a long history of staying away from everyone's affairs. Attacking them would only be adding a pure obstacle to your cause.

I believe Cassiel will use his powers or wisdom to fight off any evils from the angels, but any natural diseases or evils created by mortals would be completely ignored by him. Similarly, he will offer his advice on fighting off summoned beasts, but will give no help in warding off the masses of orc invaders.

Switzerland is a nice example. They're just kinda there, and most good and evil civs leave them alone, because they have such a long history of staying away from everyone's affairs. Attacking them would only be adding a pure obstacle to your cause.

Of course, the problem with Switzerland (and my personal problem with Cassiel's philosophy) is that neutrality only tends to work while the evil (or at least as close to evil as you can get in the real world without getting metaphysical) civs have other enemies to fight. Should the nazis or soviets have conquered and defeated all their enemies in Europe, do you really think they would have simply left Switzerland alone? Money can only pay off an enemy for so long.

Besides, if you want lots of Grigori adventurers, you're missing out on a lot of great persons, which can mean anything from slower development to being crushed by a vastly technologically superior army. I tend to get the first 2/3 adventurers and then all my other great persons are run-of-the-mill. And then they have their worldspell, which to me translates to academies everywhere.

Yeah, it's a problem, but hey, Switzerland does have an army, and so does the Grigori, but pathetically weak, sort of. Switzerland had their skirmishers, the Grigori have their 3 adventurer-archmages and 3 adventurer-immortals that can harass and slow down an advancing army.

The Swiss Guard are supposed to have been quite good, aren't they?
Good enough for the Pope anyway. I suppose the key to being a neutral "civ" is to have a small but elite army, like Norway does. Though they're not always completely neutral.

They are excellent mercenaries--probably some the best pikemen around today. Their role is currently mostly ceremonial, as the rapier and halberd aren't the most effective weapons against modern firearms (although they were issued guns after an assassination attempt in 1981).