1. Play one of the leaders with FIN + some other useful trait.

2. Raging Barbarians on a huge pangea with 3-5 other civs max.

3. Get the Great Wall and Pyramids asap, even if you have to chop every forest in sight.

This often works to give you a stupendous advantage if you don't have a lot of other competing civs, so I usually play with 3 others. (with a lot of other civs, barbarians production is too low to help).

What happens quite often is that at least one (rarely 2, and like 1 in 500, all) of the other civs get wiped out by barbs fairly early on, around 2000 BC or so.

Then the barbs start to build tons of cities, making it almost impossible in many cases for the other civs to expand easily. Since I have GW, I don't have to worry about much of an army for a long time. In fact I often don't have anything but a single warrior or archer per city until I can get Infantry.

By that time I am usually decades ahead in tech, so I can fairly easily take the barbarian rifled cities out, but the AI apparently find it almost impossible - in many cases I have seen it where the AI civs just go "flatline" for hundreds of years.

Fairly often the first inkling that the other civs have that I might have other designs on them is when my modern armor and gunships move in... :lol:

Sounds like a real challenge! ;)

Hehe.. sometimes I just wanna kick butt and not ever bother taking names. :D

Right now in my current game Julias Ceasar is about to get a taste of my 116 :goodjob: modern armor

I tried a couple of games with no war and barbs turned off, because the AI still wastes tons of time and resources building armies, but those were too easy unless I cranked it up so high that the AI was in almost total cheat mode.

I'm not sure what Pyramids have to do with your Strat. Seems like you're simply using less than the recommended # of civs, with raging barbs, and taking advantage of your foreknowledge of that fact to prioritize the Great Wall, while you leave the AIs out to dry. A good strat, but it's definitely a cheat of the AI. ;)

Wodan

You know what's even easier, is to go in world builder and delete their capitals...

I don't think it's cheating really - granted, it's not very challenging, but technically, the AI has the same opportunity to build those wonders as you.

Still, this type of game setup doesn't seem that appealing... I like having somewhat of a challenge.

It isn't cheating. However, it has the effect of lowering the difficulty several levels. It's kind of funny, and I might do it if I get frustrated, but it'd be hard to take a game like that seriously...

Even funnier would be a "conquest game" where all other civs get wiped out by barbs...THAT would be fun.

Why would it be a cheat?

Because you know you've set "raging barbarians"? No, AI should know it too, it's a game setup, and everybody can check those (and SHOULD).

Because you know AI will be in trouble with barbs? No, or at least, in this case every deity game should be irregular; in deity games, every single turn is always played in such a way to match the way the AI plays, taking advantage from it (e.g.: I know that he'll build his third defensive unit in a certain number of turns!).

So, IMHO.... you set "raging barbarians", you built the Great Wall. It's fine and it's fair, all right!!

this strat may work on higher level too.
huge map with 5-6 civs, marathon speed, get an industrious leader, rush GW and juste wait for the barbs to crush the AI :o

I don't think it's cheating really - granted, it's not very challenging, but technically, the AI has the same opportunity to build those wonders as you.

Still, this type of game setup doesn't seem that appealing... I like having somewhat of a challenge.

Sometimes I don't want a challenge, I just want to get even. ;) Not MY fault the AI is stoopid!

But it is also useful for trying out different strategies in "low challenge" mode before you take on 11 other civs.

I often cheat so as to understand better the mechanics of the game. I made a lot of experiments worth trying :
- playing with a leader that has 3 or 4 traits (with all the traits, you can play 2 levels higher than your usual level)
- starting with State Property enabled (with the adequate technologies to be able to build watermills, for example)
- starting with Mercantilism enabled
- or Bureaucracy...
- starting with Astronomy on a continent map (once you build a galleon and discover the other civs, you gain a huge trade boost)
etc...

Very instructive

on the other side , I hate it when some neighbour AI build GW so the barbs starts invade my land in huge stacks :D

on the other side , I hate it when some neighbour AI build GW so the barbs starts invade my land in huge stacks :D

Hahaha..

That is what got me started on this experiment, to see how useful GW really can be after getting totally smooshed by hordes (up to 20) barbs showing up in 2000 BC or so.

And to those that think it is really "cheating"? are you saying that you have never ever taken advantage of any of the idiocies or quirks of the AI?

And with 4 civs, it is really not as easy as I might have made it sound. You nearly always end up with one other superpower and a couple of lesser civs. Try holding of Augustus Caesar long enough to get relations up good enough with one of the wimps for a permanent alliance, so you can airdrop tanks into his cities on the opposite border :D

I tried this and on normal speed prince huge map 4 civs no dice. The ai's don't get crushed.

I guess I could make it marathon and then raise the difficulty to bring in more barbs...

And to those that think it is really "cheating"? are you saying that you have never ever taken advantage of any of the idiocies or quirks of the AI?
I don't think it's "cheating". However, it's definitely an "exploit".

I seem to recall that the AI gets hefty bonuses against barbs. If true, then feeding barbs to the AI is basically simply giving them free promotions.

This seems to correspond to my experience. If there's a lot of wilderness and you're scouting the AI, you can see that the AI isn't bothered terribly because the AI devotes fortified garrison units. However, the barbs ARE indeed able to pillage improvements. This is a significant advantage because it retards the AI's early growth.

(The exception is the early event that throws a bunch of archers at the AI, during "animal" timeframe. At that point the AI doesn't have enough units to stand up, and that's where we see AIs getting killed early, methinks.)

Wodan

I usually play EPIC speed, Prince.

The other civs don't always get crushed. One happens maybe once out of five. I have had two of them get smooshed 3-4 times, and once I won by default around 1000 BC because ALL of them got squished by barbs.

But! - the civs getting smooshed is not really the idea, that is just sometimes an added goody. The main thing is that it reduces their expansion considerably, since their settler keep getting eaten.

I have played around a dozen games so far with that setup, and what seems to happen is that the low tech jerks like stalin and that Japanese guy get "barb locked", but the techies it seems to affect much less, I presume because the barb cities upgrade fairly fast to better units and the no-tech warmongers cannot take them.

And as far as being an exploit, I disagree. You apparently have not really tried it out much. The civs that DO survive and expand tend to be much tougher opponents.

On Prince I think the AI only gets like a 10% bonus against barbs.

And as far as being an exploit, I disagree. You apparently have not really tried it out much. The civs that DO survive and expand tend to be much tougher opponents.
This is using "argument from authority"... you imply that you have more experience and that I have less, therefore you must be right. But neither implication leads to the conclusion. Do you have any evidence, or even a working theory, to support the conclusion?

Regardless, even if your conclusion is true, that doesn't make it not an exploit.

Just my two cents. :)

Wodan

My one attempt at playing raging barbs i got my ass handed to me. They beat up on me so bad i couldn't get a second city built. my settlers didn't live to start new cities. I went back and cheated myself 3 more cities, and they still beat up on me to the point that by the time i could build swordsmen the AI civs already had longbows with city garrison III

My one attempt at playing raging barbs i got my ass handed to me. They beat up on me so bad i couldn't get a second city built. my settlers didn't live to start new cities. I went back and cheated myself 3 more cities, and they still beat up on me to the point that by the time i could build swordsmen the AI civs already had longbows with city garrison III

I think that's the reason the OP was advocating the Great Wall. Apparently, only civilized armies can find their way over it. To the uncivilized barbarian, it is simply insermountable. Even Mongolia had to become a Civ under Genghis Khan before they could overcome it.

---------------

You know what's even easier, is to go in world builder and delete their capitals...

:lol:

Doing this and then giving the barbs Assembly Line and rifling is hilarious.

Regardless, even if your conclusion is true, that doesn't make it not an exploit.

Just my two cents. :)

Wodan

Using your criteria then, it seems that almost every game played by anyone is SOME kind of exploit except a straight up vanilla random everything.

But I am sure that nobody plays Pangea without knowing that the stupid AI will spend tons of money on ships.... :lol:

One could even say that blocking choke points on narrow land strips is an exploit, because the AI almost never does it.

My one attempt at playing raging barbs i got my ass handed to me. They beat up on me so bad i couldn't get a second city built. my settlers didn't live to start new cities. I went back and cheated myself 3 more cities, and they still beat up on me to the point that by the time i could build swordsmen the AI civs already had longbows with city garrison III

You forgot rule #3:

"3. Get the Great Wall and Pyramids asap, even if you have to chop every forest in sight."

Barbs cannot cross your borders, ever, if you have the GW.

Doing this and then giving the barbs Assembly Line and rifling is hilarious.

Give them tons of modern armor and gunships too :D

You forgot rule #3:

"3. Get the Great Wall and Pyramids asap, even if you have to chop every forest in sight."

Barbs cannot cross your borders, ever, if you have the GW.

no, i didn't forget. there was no way in hell i could get the productivity to build World Wonders when I couldn't even build enough military to move a settler out or work my terrain.

Using your criteria then, it seems that almost every game played by anyone is SOME kind of exploit except a straight up vanilla random everything.

But I am sure that nobody plays Pangea without knowing that the stupid AI will spend tons of money on ships.... :lol:

One could even say that blocking choke points on narrow land strips is an exploit, because the AI almost never does it.
You are correct in your evaluation.

Ultimately, how much you exploit the AI depends upon individual preference. Different people have different thresholds here. Bottom line it's what that person finds enjoyable. We ARE talking about SP, after all.

If it's "fun" to person X to go into WB and make sure they have a specific resource available (maybe they want to play a mounted game strategy or something), nobody can tell them they're playing wrong or anything. Whatever works for them. Honestly, if you really were in the mood to do some HA rush strat or something, and spent an hour playing only to find no horses anywhere, that would be a drag. Somebody on the outside can, with purity of moral ascendence, say they "cheated" and that they would be a more well-rounded player if they figured out how to have adaptable overall game strategies, but that person would be wrong and should get off his pedestal.

Likewise, person Y may feel it's "fun" to exploit the AI's inability to properly defend against a strong early rush. That is person Y's "trick" or "cheat" to playing on high level.

Person Z may decide to exploit the AI's deficiencies by playing on Pangaea, or small islands, or perhaps by using a trick with the Great Wall. Who cares, as long as they're enjoying the game.

All these things are exploits, or cheats, or whatever you want to call it.

Wodan

I'd call any strategy that takes advantage of a particular set of predetermined game parameters or a known AI blind spot to be an exploit. Some exploits are more dramatic than others, of course. And there's a line somewhere between exploits (e.g. deliberately playing as the Dutch on an archipeligo map) and strategies (beelining for Civil Service and lightbulbing it with Oracle). Without strategies, there wouldn't be a lot of difference between how humans play and how the AI plays.

I'd call any strategy that takes advantage of a particular set of predetermined game parameters or a known AI blind spot to be an exploit. Some exploits are more dramatic than others, of course. And there's a line somewhere between exploits...

While that is somewhat true, almost every strategy I have seen exploits SOME aspect of the AI.

The GW + Pyramids I described in my OP will hardly make it a walk - all it does is usually (not always) give you an early start advantage. But you are still up against the random factor, and some leaders - like Mao - seem to do very well. I came very near losing a game to him because I forgot how treacherous he can be. :blush:

All these things are exploits, or cheats, or whatever you want to call it.

Wodan

One persons exploit is another persons strategy :p

One persons exploit is another persons strategy :p
All SP strategies are exploits in some degree.

Also, all exploits are strategies. :p

Wodan

All SP strategies are exploits in some degree.

Also, all exploits are strategies. :p

Wodan

You're so civil and pragmatic, it almost brings me to tears.

You might think I'm being sarcastic, but after years of playing ranked madden (football) games online, no. EVERYTHING I do is either "cheap" or "skill-less" somehow :). Of course, that game has legitimate bugs in it every year (EA sports loves to release . .. .. .. . that should be in beta), such as the ball or players literally traveling THROUGH other players without collision detection, or the ball just shooting up into the sky and hanging there for 30 seconds (that's one strong guy to throw ANY sports ball into the air and have it hang 30 seconds...did he throw that into space?!)

We're spoiled in Civ4. "Exploits" come down to using actual strategy, and the game is actually BALANCED pretty damn well...which is why cooking the settings will favor certain civs. This is good though, because using Rome on pangaea or dutch on water maps intentionally kind of allows intermediate jumps between difficulty levels. Sometimes, it's also just fun to watch normally challenging AI make an idiot of itself, too.

You're so civil and pragmatic, it almost brings me to tears.
Thanks... I think. ;)

Wodan

no, i didn't forget. there was no way in hell i could get the productivity to build World Wonders when I couldn't even build enough military to move a settler out or work my terrain.

I don't see how that could happen if you have at least half forest squares.

1. build worker (or if worker will have nothing to do for a bit due to lack of the right tech, build a warrior or two or a fishing boat).
2. with first worker, chop second one.
3. with those two, chop a settler.
4. by now you should have mining, bronze, and masonry at least.
5. go make a new town with settler, then start on GW in capitol, chopping everything in sight, maybe a mine or two.

The latest I have ever gotten GW is around 1850 BC, and that was because I got Stonehenge first. If you have GW you don't need a settler escort most of the time.

I don't see how that could happen if you have at least half forest squares.

1. build worker (or if worker will have nothing to do for a bit due to lack of the right tech, build a warrior or two or a fishing boat).
2. with first worker, chop second one.
3. with those two, chop a settler.
4. by now you should have mining, bronze, and masonry at least.
5. go make a new town with settler, then start on GW in capitol, chopping everything in sight, maybe a mine or two.

The latest I have ever gotten GW is around 1850 BC, and that was because I got Stonehenge first. If you have GW you don't need a settler escort most of the time.
Wlauzon, one suggestion:
#1.5 should be "Get BW while you're building the worker and a warrior or two" or something.

(The problem is that BW is of course needed before you can do #2)

Wodan