Chosing Option 2 is defintely the end of our alliance with FREE. SABER would be happy.
The more I think about it, the more I favor that option. :hmm:
But that's just me. As the First Chairman this is the most important decision of my reign so I need to ask:

What does the Council think?

Please discuss and think it over carefully. It took me some time to realize that this is the one decision that will influence our game for the next hundred turns. It might change the game completely. :old:

Finish Cope´s, the extra techs from ToE aren´t that big a deal, they can be traded..
EDIT: I meant Newton´s

It's not just the extra techs. :shake:
It's Hoovers, tech lead, break with FREE, Joint Venture with SABER... :old:

And by the way: It's Newton's, Cope's already in da house. :spank: edit: I meant it that way: ;)
Please take your time to think it over. Unless I'm paranoid (please tell me) this is one of the most important decisions of the game.

Oh...how I would love to rattle Free's cage with this switch. It might also open the game up a bit.

IF we could pull it off that is...

I have been less than pleased with FREE's commitments toward our alliance lately.

Of course we'd have to make sure that SABER is not riding two horses here and trades Medicine to FREE for Electricity right away... :dubious:

They might well be able to do it, I recon both of FREE and us have been talking to SABER more than to each other recently... :rolleyes:

The situation reminds me of the Diplomacy game where we also had an unbreakable alliance (Austria-Russia) that made the game boring... :sleep:
Infidelity peps up one's life at times. :groucho: :backstab: :splat:

I'm not ready to vote yet. I mentioned in another thread that I think it's a good idea to ask for an extension.

Buidling ToE might not be the end of our alliance with FREE. They only want ToE as a means to Hoover. If we ultimately refused to trade techs with them and went on to build Hoover then our alliance is done for sure.

If we build ToE do we kiss Newton goodbye? If we build ToE and don't strike a quick deal with FREE afterwards wouldn't they use their ToE prebuild to take Newtons?

And we'd have distress in our relationship with FREE right away since we'd have to begin researching scientific method. Yeah, I can see now this would really involve us going behind FREE's back which would seriously compromise our chances of continuing the MAAP alliance.

We still have to consider that GONG must be dealt with somehow. We are in no position to stop GONG by ourselves. Rather than thinking about discarding our alliance with FREE in favor of SABER perhaps it is time we thought more about a BABA (Brains Against Braun Alliance). With SABER so close to us anyway and FREE threatening to leave us behind maybe we need a three way MAAP for the industrial age. Or a three way MAAP should be part of a BABA where we fight BABE and FREE and SABER invade GONG. The goal would be to neutralize the GLET. By having both of them attack GONG the risk of one completely conquering GONGland is lower - since they'd theoretically have to fight each other for complete control of GONG's homeland. That let's us choose sides. :)

What would a three way MAAP look like? There is scientific method, replaceable parts and the corporation up next to research not to mention sanitation, communism and espionage. After the corporation refining and steel open up/ It seems we could all three be working away at IA techs and tooling up to deal with the GLET.

I'm leaning towards sticking with Newton's.

I don't know if you're still around, Paul - but we should definitely ask for an extension here.

The fact that Free has taken weeks to respond to our letters pulls me in the direction of Saber.

Until I hear some persuasive arguments as to why we should stick with Free, I vote to pinch TofE and cast our lot with Saber :hammer:

EDIT: x-post with Donsig. Interesting ideas there. I'll be thinking about them :hmm:

So what exactly are we proposing, something along these lines?

1) Finish Industrialization and swap with Free for Electricity in 2 turns time
2) Trade for medicine from Saber in around 2 or 3 turns
3) Stall Free so they start on Replaceable Parts or Switch off research altogether
4) Research Scientific Method
5) Complete Scientific Method and switch pre-build to complete ToE
6) Take Atomic theory and Electronics from ToE
7) Build Hoovers to deny Free
8) Continue tech cooperation with Saber

I did some very rough calculations, if we micromanage The Chamber to maximize shields and rail all The Chambers tiles this turn then we can build Hoovers in 23 turns (building a factory seems to take the same amount of time in total). To beat us Free would have to research medicine, Scientific Method, Atomic Theory (very expensive) and Electronics within those 23 turns, don't forget they have an SGL so don't have to worry about a pre-build. These calculations were very rough so we may be able to shave some turns here or there.

Especially we could shave a lot off the Hoover's build time. :old:
We can part rush the factory in The Chamber and if we don't care too much about unit upkeep (drafting in our size-seven-cities) we could also part-rush a coal plant there. Two turns. :smug:
That would double our production to ~60 and give us Hoovers in ~13+2. No chance for FREE. :p

Funny thing: If we do it that way, we do not violate anything (written), if they take Newton's, they violate MAAP II. Of course they could argue (at the UN court) that we violated by not researching MT... :rolleyes:

Yes, I will ask for an extension. :)

Yowza. :wow: Good call on asking for the extension.

Stealing ToE is only a good idea if we're suddenly committed to switching alliances to Saber.

Unfortunately, I don't see Dutchfire of Chamnix online to try to feel them out. But if history is any indication, Saber would leap at the opportunity.

Grabbing the ToE will almost certainly cost us Newtons, unless FREE goes for Universal Suffrage or something equally not as good. At the very least, we could expect to lose Newtons to Saber or GONG, who I suspect at least one of them is making an attempt for it.

As I mentioned in the FREE embassy, stealing the ToE is pretty much guaranteed to make us the bad-guys in FREE land… treaty or no treaty. It'd be much better for Saber to do the stealing.
If people agree – I'll fire off a quick PM and e-mail to Chamnix and Dutchfire to see if I can get a response from them on whether or not they've got a pre-build going.

Dear Chamnix and Dutchfire,

There's been some "developments" in our negotiations with FREE, and I can't say much right now – but if you guys currently have a wonder pre-build going that you'd be willing to consider diverting into a play for the Theory of Evolotion – this would improve the likelihood that we'd switch teams to make an alliance with you.
Sadly, we need an answer right away (before we play the current save) – so if you could let us know, that'd be great!
Thanks
…

Thoughts on that?

Even if Saber doesn't have a pre-build, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily opposed to switching alliances. It just means we should be realistic about how upset FREE is going to be over it.

Okay, no harm in asking them (unless FREE finds out).

We should add that ToE should be finished in a max twelve (rather ten) turns from now.

Nevertheless FREE would clearly see that we are playing false if we keep Medicine longer than necessary - or get it way after we gave Electricity to SABER and SABER got Medicine (FREE won't know who of us got it).

So there is no way to let SABER play the bad guy role in this game (unless FREE is sleeping deeply :sleep: )... :nono:
But we would get Newton before... :p

I'll send a note off right now.
Even if we eventually decide against this, there's no harm done. Saber already knows we've seriously considered switching in the past.


Dear Chamnix and Dutchfire,

There's been some "developments" in our negotiations with FREE, and I can't say much about it right now – but if you guys currently have a wonder pre-build going that you'd be willing to consider diverting into a play for the Theory of Evolution – this would improve the likelihood that we'd switch teams to make an alliance with you.

Specifically, we'd need you to be able to finish the ToE in the next 10-11 turns.

Sadly, we need an answer right away (before we play the current save) – so if you could let us know, that'd be great!
Thanks!

General_W

Sent to Chamnix via PM and Dutchfire via gmail.


I think we're much more likely to get away with Saber being the bad guy than you seem to think Paul. I highly doubt FREE is paying close enough attention to notice that 2 teams have gotten Medicine.

You're right that we can't delay forever… but we can delay for quite a while. They can't know for sure how long it's going to take us to "research" Medicine… and since they can't be bothered to respond to our letter, I think we can stall quite effectively by just not responding to them either.
When Saber is far enough along on their pre-build, we just state clearly to FREE that we want out of the MAAP III negotiations, and then refuse to trade them medicine, which we've never promised them.
They'll have to research that themselves and then Scientific method (8 turns, minimum) during which time Saber "steals" the ToE.
FREE will be mad at us, sure. But not nearly as mad as they would be if we stalled them AND stole the ToE.

Got a response from Chamnix already! :thumbsup:

I'm just posting it here, to try to keep our discussion focused in this thread.


Dear General_W:

I received your message and immediately posted it in our forums. I'm sure you understand that I cannot answer that question without getting some input from my teammates, but we understand the urgency and will reply ASAP.

Chamnix


Analysis: I think this is a good sign that Saber has at least some kind of pre-build going… though it's hard to speculate on how advanced it might be. If they had nothing going, there'd be no harm in saying so.

So now we want to hear how close they are!
If they can get it done in time, we can get BOTH Newton and ToE! :clap:

If they can't finish in time- we'll have to make the hard call of jumping ship even though it means giving up Newton and really angering FREE… or else continuing to wait on FREE's response and letting any dreams of stealing the ToE/Hoover die.

Reposted from the FREE Embassy thread:

I vote SABER and ToE - but we should be really sure that FREE doesn't get Medicine from SABER first. Any chance we could glean that info from dutchfire et al? If we tell them that we'll side with them throughout the IA, as long as they don't trade Medicine to FREE, that should be a good incentive for them to keep it close. Better a long-term agreement than a one-time deal, no?

:agree:

If we switch to Saber, I think it will have to be under the framework of a MAAP type deal – preventing both sides from executing non-approved trades.

Perhaps I should start drafting a SCIAA (Saber Council Industrial Age Alliance) treaty document?

P.S. Tripple post! :woohoo:

We don't necessarily need SABER to send us medicine right away, do we? :mischief: Did we ever tell FREE about the medicine trade? :hmm:

The upshot seems to be that even if we switch to SABER we should go ahead and complete Newtons. My vote is leaning that way.

EDIT: I don't think we ever discussed our SABER medicine trade with FREE. I saw nothing about it in the last two notes we sent FREE.

@Donsig - you're correct. We can totally not accept medicine for the time being, and FREE will be none the wiser. Very excellent point. :thumbsup:

Also, as promised, here's a draft of a SCIAA agreement…
If we continue down this road.


Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:

----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.


II. Technology Plan
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Atomic Theory (TOE)
Electronics (TOE)
Refining (4800)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)


The Council
Nationalism (3600)
Industrialization (3600)
Electricity (4200)
Sanitation (2700)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)


* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300


III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.



IV. Defense Against All
If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.


V. Spoils of War
Should war come, Team Saber has a right to the lands currently occupied by team GONG.
The Council has a right to the lands currently occupied by the evil team BABEs.
The lands of team FREE will be up for grabs or re-negotiation once the Alliance possesses both Bombers and Marines.



END DRAFT
-------------------------

We're eager to hear what you think!

All the Best,
Your Allies,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council



Note: If Saber went for this, it would be an extra good deal for us, since we'll have already executed a trade of Industrialization for Electricity with FREE by the time this is signed.

If Saber wants this signed before the Indus/Electric trade, we'd have to re-word it – obviously. That could be a little tricky, but totally doable.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Note – it may be worthwhile to point out to Saber that if their prebuild is for Newton, they're not going to get it anyway. Ditto the ToE and Hoover, thanks to FREE's prebuild and their SGL.
Might change their perspective if they know they're about to be shut-out. :dunno:

:yup: Me like!

I see no problem sending SABER the SCIAA proposal. I think we might want to put replaceable parts on our side though. If we enter into this deal I think we'd want to research replaceable parts next. There are three techs the same price on our side that it could be swapped for.

Good thinking donsig, but unfortunately that won't work. There would be nothing for SABER to research after SM while waiting for us to finish Corporation, and then we'd be stuck again at Combustion. The fastest way forward would be if we could research in parallel SM-Corporation > Steel-Refining > Combustion-RP. That means delaying RP for a while, but I think the benefits of doing so are greater than the drawbacks.

OK, I see your point. Does SABER already have military tradition? A better question though concerns building ToE. Since I'm not a good micromanager I usually have a turn or two (or more) while I'm waiting for ToE to finish where I turn off research and collect gold. I wonder if it's too much to ask SABER to cut us in on any gold they accumulate this way?

Wow, General - you've been very productive!

I'm fine with sending this off tonight - before we play the save.

If we need to switch a tech around after it's signed, I'm sure SABER will be agreeable (as long as we have good reasons for the switch).

To profit! To Glory! To Victory! :salute:

With us already getting a better deal on beakers than the SCIAA suggests, AND getting Hoovers, I doubt we want to push our luck on trying to get gold also.

Would The Council support tipping our hand to Saber and letting them know we'll be finishing Newton's next turn?
I don't see the great harm in this, since you can't rush wonders in C3C, even if this deal with Saber falls apart we'll only have given them 1 turn of advance notice.

The benefit of tipping our hand is that I think it makes Saber much more likely to want to deal with us. We scare them of the prospect of what it will mean if we stick with FREE, and show them that they having nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I'd propose starting our letter to Saber like this…

Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We're still waiting on your answer about a pre-build that could be used for the Theory of Evolution… but we thought we'd tip our hand a bit, and tell you why it matters.

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam.

In order to thwart this massive leap forward, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but it would obviously be much more appealing to both get Newton AND deny the ToE to FREE.
There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us bailing out on our alliance with FREE… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.


This is where you (hopefully) come in!
We're hoping you have a pre-build going. (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn)
We'd like to propose a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.
If you're open to it, this would do a couple wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
…


How's that for radical? :lol:

But if we're seriously looking to totally shake up this game – I think we're going to need to put our cards on the table for Saber.

Just my 2 cents!
Thoughts?

I like the lead in. You're starting to sell me on the idea of switching to SABER. I vote to send this long letter. I'm voting to complete Newton's though.

:agree: a big part of switching to saber, imo, is the ability to stop FREE and still get Newtons.

General_W, I really think you've drafted a beauty here. It makes a lot of sense to tell Saber all this - they already know we're holding the game for some reason, and I expect they will come to a quick decision.

Just a couple of comments on the specifics of the letter:
1. There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us bailing out on our alliance with FREE… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE. I don't think any alliance proposal should include the phrase 'bail out on our alliance'. Maybe a rephrasing would paint a clearer picture? ...severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance due to changing circumstances...

2. [this is really a minor point - purely stylistic, so I hope I don't annoy :D]
We'd like to propose a deal where you divert that pre-build This could be more forceful: We are proposing a deal where...

3. If you're open to it, this would do a couple wonderful things for you. I know it's a small matter, but to me 'a couple' refers to 2, and 'a few' refers to 3, 'several' refers to 4, etc.

Again, I apologize for insisting on mentioning the last two, but I feel the first suggestion has real merit. I don't want Saber to think that The Council is actually bailing on a signed agreement when that's not the case at all.

Brilliant letter. But what if Saber screws us to go to free.

Thanks Cubsfan :)
And, excellent points Peter.
Far from being offended – I appreciate anything that makes the letter more clear. After all, we want Saber to focus on our ideas… not General_W’s marginal English skills :D

I’ll make all those changes – especially the first one. Very very good point.

So – here’s the deal… we’ve got wide consensus on the SCIAA – but only 3 people have spoken up in favor of the introduction part.
It’s now 10:00pm here on the west coast USA, and I’ll be going to bed soon.

I’m posting the “final” version here in spoiler tags so that if one of our European or East Coast USA councilors sees that this letter has gotten more support in the morning before I’m up and online, they can go ahead and send it off.

I, of course, support sending this letter also :D


Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We're still waiting on your answer about a pre-build that could be used for the Theory of Evolution… but we thought we'd tip our hand a bit, and tell you why it matters.

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam.

In order to thwart this massive leap forward, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but it would obviously be much more appealing to both get Newton AND deny the ToE to FREE.
There will be broad and likely severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance due to changing circumstances… but we're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.


This is where you (hopefully) come in!
We're hoping you have a pre-build going. (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn)
We are proposing a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.
If you're open to it, this would do a few wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.


II. Technology Plan
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Atomic Theory (TOE)
Electronics (TOE)
Refining (4800)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)


The Council
Nationalism (3600)
Industrialization (3600)
Electricity (4200)
Sanitation (2700)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)


* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300


III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.



IV. Defense Against All
If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.



END DRAFT
-------------------------

We hate to put pressure on you with such short notice – but we would REALLY like to know if you’re interested in the broad outlines of this before we play this turn. Of course the specific points can be negotiated in good faith if you’re interested in the basic concept… just let us know!

All the Best,
Your Friends,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Please comment/edit or even send this!
I expect to check back in around 8am PST (about 10 hours from this post) – so I can send it off then if no one has done it yet.

EDIT: I deleted article 5, "spoils of war." No need to get into that kind of detail at this point. Besides, Saber will likely want at least one of Babe's small islands... so I suggest we just leave that alone for now.

I think we should point out that we have not yet signed any industrial age deal with Free, just so that it is clear we are not going back on any agreement.

This is an excellent letter! :wow:

I agree to play that open with SABER and think this is a great progress. :thumbsup:

I would feel better if we knew for sure that SABER has a prebuild going (might as well be for Smith's or Magellan) before sending it - but at the bottom line I need to know till I'd like to play in ~10 hours from now...
So send it off!

There's no need to hurry though, I'm pretty sure we could stall the game for another day if we want. :smug:
If there will ever be a statistic on "hold game time" BABE will have a quite comfortable lead... :rolleyes:

:goodjob:......

We might also offer to (temporarily) help their cash position if they have trouble to do max science towards ToE. Only if prebuild timing allows / demands it.

Our own cash situation might force us to stall research after Industrialization but that might also allow us to start on RP rather than TC after we got Electricity... :hmm: :crazyeye:

I agree with a lot that was said here. We should make it clear that we don't have a signed agreement with FREE right now. And we can hold off another day on playing if we want - but we don't want to raise Free's suspicions. I don't foresee SABER going to FREE. Our story has the ring of truth and SABER would realize that FREE would get ToE and Hoover if they (SABER) allied with FREE. Besides, I doubt FREE would answer SABER any time soon anyway.

Looks like Paul already posted this in the Saber embassy, but here is Chamnix’s letter again for reference:

Dear General_W:

It is difficult to promise much given the quick deadline and the lack of details in your letter, but we continue to be interested in working with you, and I will tell you what I can.

We can reach about 600 shields in a city in your proposed timeframe, and we are definitely interested in building the Theory of Evolution. Depending on when you can provide us with Industrialization, it may be quicker for us to build a factory and rush a coal plant than it is to use an existing prebuild, but we will work that out depending on your estimated time of completion of Industrialization.

We may not be able to provide Medicine at the same time as you provide Industrialization, and if you're not comfortable with that, then that's fine, and we will forget the factory/coal plant approach.

I hope that's enough information to enable you to make whatever decision must be made this turn.

Chamnix

This is wonderful news. Saber is being surprisingly open, AND they can get the 600 shields in the 10-11 turns.

I’d therefore like to send off this modified letter in the next 4 hours or so.
I agree we can continue to hold the save for even 24 more hours… but it’d be nice to move it sooner than that.

I’ve changed the opening part to reflect the letter we got from Saber, and further modified our alliance bailing part per Aigburth’s suggestion.
I think that gives us pretty much unanimous support among the councilors that have commented thus far… but I’d still like to give at least a few hours for comment before we commit such a drastic action.

Here’s version 2:

Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

Thank you so much for getting back to us. Again, we apologize for the large demands and lack of information. We deeply appreciate your honesty in the face of all that. In return, we’re going to be very open with you also.

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

Here’s the scoop on why we’ve had all the cloak and dagger recently…

Confidential Disclosure:
The Council anticipates the completion of Newton's University next turn (161). We also know that team FREE has an aggressive pre-build in place for the ToE. After completing this wonder, they will use it to advance to Electronics, and then use a Scientific Great Leader they drew earlier in the game to rush finish Hoover Dam. :wow:

Team FREE is becoming increasingly uncooperative, and The Council has decided we’d really like to thwart this massive leap forward. To do this, it is essential that team FREE be denied the ToE. We briefly considered giving up on Newton's University in favor of trying to beat FREE to the ToE, but this move alone is fraught with problems, as FREE has made it clear that they consider that to be “their” wonder. Making a change in allegiance at this stage only makes solid strategic sense for us if we can get a new ally, get Newton, AND deny the ToE to FREE.

Since we haven’t ever officially completed a new alliance agreement with FREE, we feel comfortable making this kind of a strategic jump without breaking our word. However, as you can imagine, FREE is going to be “less than impressed” and there will certainly be broad and probably severe repercussions to us shifting our allegiance. We're willing to take that risk if we can keep Newton and still stop FREE before they become a runaway train.

If we can't work out a deal with someone, we'll have to stick with our alliance with FREE and hope we can somehow overcome their Hoover advantage in the Modern Age.


This is where you (hopefully) come in!
Since you’ve indicated you can get a city to 600 shields in 10-11 turns, (we understand that it's probably a pre-build for Newton, but remember: if we can't work out a deal here, you're going to lose it anyway, unless you're completing it this turn), we are proposing a deal where you divert that pre-build towards beating FREE to the Theory of Evolution.

If you're open to it, this would do a few wonderful things for you. 1) It would save you shields you're likely to lose (or be forced to dump into a stinky wonder as FREE gobbles up the good ones in the IA). 2) It would lock you into an exclusive advantageous alliance with us for much faster tech advancement. And 3) it would radically change the current FREE-dominated dynamic of the game giving you a more realistic potential path to victory.

And on that note, we'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:
----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.


II. Technology Plan
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Atomic Theory (TOE)
Electronics (TOE)
Refining (4800)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)


The Council
Nationalism (3600)
Industrialization (3600)
Electricity (4200)
Sanitation (2700)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)


* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300


III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.



IV. Defense Against All
If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.


-------------------------

We hate to put pressure on you with such short notice again – but we would REALLY like to know if you’re interested in the broad outlines of this before we play this turn. Of course the specific points can be negotiated in good faith if you’re interested in the basic concept… just let us know!

All the Best,
Your Friends,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


EDIT: SENT! To Saber gmail and Chamnix PM and Dutchfire gmail

Good to go?

The suspense is killing me so I sent this to SABER's gmail on my own initiative. Hope I don't lose my Council seat or get flogged by the General.

Dear SABER,

We expect to finish industrialization on turn 161 and could send it then. Please let us know soon if you'd be able to reach 600 shields within ten turns from now AND could research scientific method by then. If your research is slowed an estimate of the amount of gold needed to hurry your research would help us make decisions.

Disclaimer: I am sending this without first clearing it with the rest of the Council. :eek:

donsig
Team Council

Fine quick note, donsig. Although part of it was already answered (vaguely).

SCIAA sounds nice. SCIAT (treaty) would be great either. :hmm:

According to latin FIAT LUX (= "let there be light") maybe there is a "SCIAT" = "Let there be Knowledge" or just "be there knowledge"?
From latin scire = to know, 3 person singular conjunctive? :rolleyes:

Sciat: [it's been years since my degree, but]... my impression is that sciat would more properly be translated as 'Let it be known'. 3ps present [passive?] subjunctive.... No, no. That can't be right. the ending would be -tur. :hmm: Let him know, or, more fluently, Make it known. But again, we're falling into the passive, and that's not accurate here. I think I'm stuck, actually :lol:

I think it's good to go, General_W. However, just be sure to remove the END DRAFT tag towards the bottom of the letter ;)

Current Count:
In favor of current version: 4 (Peter, Donsig, Paul, General_W)
In favor (at least of last version): 3 (tomasjj, aigburth, cubsfan)
Opposed: 0 ( ? )


We've clearly got consensus on sending this basic letter.
But I'll go ahead and wait another hour for comment on this last version before I send it off.

Please speak up now if you've got any last minute changes!


@ Peter, Paul (& Mary?) – you're running into the same trouble I had on coming up with a catchy abbreviation for this deal. Let's just stick with SCIAA for now… if we come up with something really great, we can always change it later. I think reaching for psudo-Latin is a bit much ;)

Haha :lol:

I wasn't really advocating calling it sciat - I was just more trying to figure out what it would mean in english. It's not everyday that I get to put my degree to work :rolleyes:

ok! Good enough.
Off it goes!

How exciting!!

Man I had thought I'd already read the answer :( :mischief:

Finally some action... :p

At least Wotan thinks his peace offer gives us headaches :lol:

At least Wotan thinks his peace offer gives us headaches :lol:

We need to sell FREE on that, too. It would help cover our tracks.

I miss coming here for two days and look what happens :eek:

Seems like a good idea and could work :goodjob:, at least it will make things a little more interesting

I made up my mind now.

SABER seems self-conscious to complete the deed. I'd rather like to read it one more time... :rolleyes:

So If nothing strange happens I'll just play as planned. We do get Newton's *fingers crossed* - General how about a newsletter on this? ;)

If SABER get's ToE we'll have a prebuild for Hoover's ready. If not we'll just stick with FREE.
It's SABER's chance to convince us of their worthiness :p
All we do is provide Electricity and lean back and watch the battle :smug: *grabs popcorn* :D

If SABER get's ToE we'll have a prebuild for Hoover's ready. If not we'll just stick with FREE.

:confused: I don't follow the logic here. I thought we were about to sign on with Saber for a SCIAA, which would preclude us from signing MAAP3 with Free. According to my understanding, once we agree to SCIAA, there is no way to 'stick with Free'.

I think Our First Chairman has doubts that SABER wants to join us and / or can build ToE before FREE. Perhaps he's assuming we won't have any treaties signed in the near future and will be free to choose our ally for some time yet. If SABER reacts fast and gets SCIAA signed then, yes, there's no going back to FREE.

Yep, my thinking was just based on this turn which I will probably play with incomplete facts. :(
What we got from SABER is so thin, it would usually make me stalling the game further.
Just to continue, I ruled out the option to build ToE ourselves because I will switch to Newton's this turn and there's no way back (unless someone robs us). :shifty:

However we could do some calculation how long The Chamber would need for factory, plant and ToE.
Factory in 162 (ambitious science prevent drafting), Plant in 163 (excessive drafting, disbanding and cash rushing) and than ~60spt for ten turns might also work... :dubious:
Hoovers (in The Treasury) then might well take 20 turns before FREE gets close to it... :hmm:
However that would be an effort too ambitious for my taste. 90% of our cities would shrink to size 6.
Not sure if this is worth it :dunno:

If negotiations in the next days result in chamnix saying: "No, we don't get the ToE prebuild in time" or "No, we can't / don't want to research SM in time" or even "No, you guys stink!" :D then we could still turn back to FREE and behave as if nothing had happened. Just a fall-back option. :p

If we switched to SABER and FREE manages to take ToE and Hoovers than we have chosen the wrong horse but should definetely try to make the best of it. :rolleyes:

Yep, my thinking was just based on this turn which I will play with incomplete facts. What we got from SABER is so thin, it would usually make me stalling the game further. Just to continue, I ruled out the option to build ToE ourselves because I will switch to Newton's this turn and there's no way back (unless someone robs us). :shifty:

If negotiations in the next days result in chamnix saying: "No, we don't get the ToE prebuild in time" or "No, we can't / don't want to research SM in time" or even "No, you guys stink!" :D then we could still turn back to FREE and behave as if nothing had happened. Just a fall-back option. :p

If we switched to SABER and FREE manages to take ToE and Hoovers than we have chosen the wrong horse but should definetely try to make the best of it. :rolleyes:

Not sure I agree with the last part. FREE would run away with it with Hoover and ToE, so something would have to be done about them anyway... and together with SABER we would stand a better chance to whip them ;)

Not sure I agree with the last part. FREE would run away with it with Hoover and ToE, so something would have to be done about them anyway... and together with SABER we would stand a better chance to whip them ;)
Actually they would not necessarily run away if they are bound to MAAP III but I think that's excactly what they want to do by not signing it... ;)

They appear to see MAAP III as a brake / penalty for them (which it is) and try to get along without it. The more I think about it... :rolleyes:

:p

Thanks for the explanations. I follow the thinking now.

My Opinion:
We do Newton's.
Offer Saber SCIAA

If/When SCIAA is signed, and after the Industrialism swap with Free, we send them a note saying that we are still open to tech by tech swaps.

Then we do everything we can to help SABER pinch ToE :mischief:

Just so everyone knows... I'm chatting with Dutchfire right now, and it's going a bit rocky. Saber isn't sure this is a good deal for them.
I'll keep you posted...

Ok- here's the basic scoop from Dutchfire: Saber isn't very impressed by our offer and thinks it's not a very good deal for them. Specifically, their gripes are that they're not really saving any beakers since we got Nationalism for free and are getting Electricity from FREE. (drat them, they pay too close of attention! ;) )
They're also upset that they're being asked to bear all the burden of the ToE while we get all the attractive wonders.
They'd like to make a deal happen, but think we should build the ToE.
I pushed back pretty hard (with some light threats tossed in for good measure) – and it sounds like it's possible that they might agree if we seriously upped our tech commitment.

Here's the whole thing:

Dutchfire:
hi
General_W:
hey there!
General_W:
how goes it?
Dutchfire:
I'm doing pretty well, and you?
General_W:
Doing great. Had a good Valentines day, and my daughter had a good checkup with one of her doctors :)
General_W:
Now we just need Saber to join us in an alliance, and all will be perfect ;)
Dutchfire:
lol
Dutchfire:
well, your propsal has been discussed a lot in our forums
General_W:
lol - I'll bet - we kind of unloaded after being stingy with info
General_W:
sorry about the rush-rush on all of this. I think we're going to go ahead and play... and just hope our two teams can work something out in the meantime
General_W:
Do you have any idea when you might have an answer for us?
Dutchfire:
I don't to be honest, but I expect in the next couple of days
General_W:
ok - I'm a little supprised you all aren't more excited about the idea.
Dutchfire:
but to be honest, most of my team mates don't seem to be very impressed by your current offer
General_W:
wow - that really supprises me. We all thought you'd be excited to have an ally and put the breaks on FREE. What happened?
Dutchfire:
well, we've been saying that Free was going to be a juggernaut since the middle ages, and as a reward for that, we'll have to build the ToE and research more techs while you take the attractive wonders.
General_W:
er - I believe we're taking the heavier beaker load
General_W:
but - wow - that's a totally disapointing perspective.
Dutchfire:
(you take 6k beakers more, but you got Nationalism for free, and Electricity from Free)
Dutchfire:
well, we are quite willing to make a deal here, and help you out, but the majority of the team feels this deal won't help us
Dutchfire:
plus we'd have to use almost all our current resources in an effort to get ToE (what if we miss it? More techs for us...)
General_W:
lol - well, I suppose if you choose to let us stick with FREE, we can do that. Not our first choice, but we can try to find a way to make that work.
Dutchfire:
well, it's not our first choice either, that's why we were hoping we could work out a better deal
General_W:
just so you know - if you were to miss the ToE, we would never expect you to get those techs on your own. that'd be totally unresonable.
Dutchfire:
well, the most important thing in my opinion is the ToE, we'd still have to build a factory and a coal plant, and then it would take us 10 more turns. Wouldn't it be better if you used your Newton's prebuild to get it?
General_W:
well - we considered that, but no. Short answer is were not willing to do that. If we have to give up Newton AND doubly offend FREE, it just isn't going to be worth it. We're too far behind all the other teams.
General_W:
It's not our intention to play for second place - but we're not going to play for 5th either.
Dutchfire:
behind all the other teams? Us and two medieval teams (one of them a one man team) :p
General_W:
which you know perfectly well that one is on their way to a cultural victory and the other is almost certainly planning a GLET.
General_W:
(Great Library Elevator Threat)
Dutchfire:
still, to be honest, I think you'd be better of with us than with Free. As you said, there's no point in playing for second place, if you stay with Free, you are playing for second place
General_W:
well, we have some ideas - not wonderful odds of working out. But better (in our opinion) than the odds of totally ticking FREE off and losing a key part of our hope to regain some ground on research ability
General_W:
I see your point on the techs though. We hadn't thought of it that way. I'm pretty sure we'd be willing to up our tech committment.
General_W:
if that makes any difference
Dutchfire:
it might help :)
Dutchfire:
what about moving one of our techs to you, and dropping Sanitation? (it's non optional IIRC)
Dutchfire:
that'd balance things out a bit
Dutchfire:
anyway, I've got to go now
Dutchfire:
see you later
General_W:
well, Sanitation is a tech we want.
General_W:
ok - talk to you later
General_W:
we'll look at a way to pick up more tech


Thoughts on what we should do?


Also, here's the SCIAA proposal we sent Saber for reference:

----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace
Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.


II. Technology Plan
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Atomic Theory (TOE)
Electronics (TOE)
Refining (4800)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)


The Council
Nationalism (3600)
Industrialization (3600)
Electricity (4200)
Sanitation (2700)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)


* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300


III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.



IV. Defense Against All
If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.


-------------------------


:help:

I'm really no good at figuring out tech balances, but it seems to me that if we pick up an extra 4000 beakers we may tip the fence-sitters on Saber, no?

Would it work out if we switched Replaceable Parts to our side, and called it even?

They are totally right - why did we include our free techs in the deal? :nono: (yeah, I could have seen it too :rolleyes: )

I suggest the following split:

Team SABER: Military Tradition, Medicine, Scientific Method, Refining, Replacable Parts, Mass Production, Amphibious Warfare
Team Council: Industrialization, The Corporation, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Motorized Transportation, Sanitation

Total beakers is 24720 for them and 27900 for us, a difference of 3180. In return they build the ToE and let us have Hoover's, as before.

This split also has the nice property that we won't have to wait at any point. We'll do Med-Indu, SciMeth-Corp, Ref-Steel, RepParts-Comb, MassProd-MotoTrans, Amphi-Flight and at some point also Sanit-MilTrad.

One more thing - if they fail to build ToE, we will of course split the two techs, them doing AT and we do Electronics.

I should also note that if we want to change the beaker imbalance, the best way to do that is by swapping techs within the pairs. Right now we have on our side Steel which is more expensive than Refining and Comb > RepParts. I think it should stay the way it is though, we should accept that we can research a lot faster than them, having both Cope's and Newton's, and that we will outpace them in the MT anyway.

An apology would also be in order, we did try to blow them, even if it was inadvertently (which they probably wouldn't buy).

Nevermind..

Niklas' idea sounds good although refining is more expensive than steel not the other way around.

We could say the first proposal was a bit of a rush job (which is true) but maybe its best not to come up with excuses and just give a straight apology instead.

Perhaps instead of apologizing we could explain what negotiating is. :lol: We could also offer to let them split the techs and let us choose which half we want. We should build Newton's and then we can examine who can build ToE faster. Also, I agree we should include a provision for missing out on ToE (and Hoover) since we'll have serious competition.

GREAT start Niklas :thumbsup:

@Donsig: :lol: good point. But I think we'll have a better chance of success if we play nice ;)

I had a much friendlier chat with Dutchfire just now. Looks like we're coming closer together.
Looks like a big piece of potential leverage for us is Chamnix is estimating they'll need around 1,000 gold to rush the necessary infrastructure to make the ToE happen – and even then they think the best they can do is probably turn 173 (ie, 13 turns).
If we decide we're willing to offer them a truckload of gold to help them get it done, I think that might just tip the scales in our favor.
If making this deal is still worth it to us for that cost. (I personally think it certainly would be)

Here's a rough draft of what a counter-proposal to Saber might look like:

Dear Saber Friends,

First of all, let me offer the sincere apology of The Council for the unbalanced nature of our previous proposal. This may sound contrived, but in all the hectic activity of trying to put a proposal together, it was a legitimate mistake on our part to try to count beakers we weren't actually going to be putting out. You were absolutely right to reject our initial distribution as unfair.

We believe we've got a much better start this time. Here's what we're thinking:

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Refining (4800)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)
Atomic Theory (ToE)
Electronics (ToE) [Council will do if ToE is missed]

Team Saber Total Beakers = 24,720


The Council
Nationalism (bonus)
Electricity (trade)
Industrialization (3600)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Sanitation (2700)

Council Total Beakers = 27,900

In addition, it's our understanding that Team Saber will require around 1,000 gold for rushing the necessary infrastructure to get the ToE and Scientific Method in time.
The Council therefore agrees to pay 800 gold (as rapidly as realistically possible) to help defray this cost and give Team Saber a leg up on rapid industrialization.

The above section would simply replace the relevant parts of Article II in the draft SCIAA agreement we sent earlier.
We'd also have to add some language for at least a partial gold refund if our ToE gambit fails… as that will also guarantee that FREE will be the ones building Hoover.

Again, we apologize for the egregious error in our first draft proposal.
We hope this is far more palatable to your team.
Let us know as soon as possible!

Your Friends (and still hopeful Allies)

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts on that?

One final thing I'd like to toss out there is that I think it is pretty reasonable and fair for us to contribute a truckload of gold in payment for Saber's work on the ToE.
Realistically, our alternatives are: A) give up Newton to stop FREE or B) Stick with FREE and let them continue to dramatically outpace us or C) Keep Newton and pay Saber a hefty fee to enable them to get ToE in time.

I'm opposed to B. So we just need to decide how much gold it's worth to us to be able to keep Newton.
The Treasury is currently doing around 80 beakers. I think that is coming from 40 base uncorrupted commerce. Assume that it will average 45 over the lifetime of the game (very conservative, since with sanitation, we'll be able to do 45 base uncorrupted commerce with just two more roaded tiles) – at 45 base commerce, at an average of 70% science, Newton will be worth an average of 31 beakers per turn. (45 * .7 = 31.5)
Bottom line: Paying 800 gold to keep Newton will take us about 26 turns to earn back in beakers.
But I think it's actually a little better than that, because in 26 turns we'll be nearing the Modern Age where beating other teams to key techs like Miniaturization (internet!) by even a turn or two could be totally pivotal.

So – that's how I came up with 800 gold being acceptable. But I'm totally looking forward to hearing what the better C3C players on our team have to say!

Well, those 1000 gold should be offset by the 3000+ beakers, no? That said, I'm fine with contributing gold to them, but I think they would agree to 500 gold too, i.e. half. If not, let them do the haggling, we shouldn't do it for them.

But 13 turns, will they beat FREE with that? And with a 1000 gold investment into The Treasury, could we do it faster? If yes, maybe we should try to make a deal to make them give us gold instead, or?

I'm good with offering 500 gold.
But the point about us building it faster is excellent – but politically more difficult since we'd have to explain to FREE why we're not transferring Medicine and Scientific Method to them much sooner.

Still – if one of our MM kings can work out how long it would take us to do it, it'd be a cool bargaining tool to offer to let Saber pay us the money while we do the ToE build.

Option A I just ruled out... :mischief:
Unless somebody beats us to Newton's...

I will come up with a calculation how quickly we can do Scientific Method and ToE in The Chamber and at which costs...

We got 5 towns larger than 7 (apart from our wonder towns). That allows to draft 5 rifles = 100 shields.
We got ~60 shields in, disband 5 rifles to ~160, cash-rush to bank (200) for 160g, disband a horse to 207 and get the factory in #162.

In #162 we need 160 shields. The Chamber already does some 50spt.
If we take our time we will build it in two with 3 rifles disbanded. Get it in #164.

In #164 we start ToE prebuild (Universal Suffrage?).
If FREE uses their prebuild for it (They might look at the F7 screen...), we have a problem...

I'll have a look at the save.

Another thing to consider (which to best effect should have been done before the save went off) is that we could send SABER Nationalism right away, allowing them to draft-disband for the factory and plant. I guess it's too late now though.

Yes, first thing we must do is figure out whether we can build ToE faster than SABER. But we also have to figure in how long it will take FREE to research scientific method on their own. This latter part is especially important if we can convince FREE to start on replaceable parts. Probably not likely - and probably also not likely that we can hide this gambit from FREE if they pay attention to tech costs.

As for the gold we certainly should not pay the full price for them to position themselves to build ToE. We should also lay claim to half of any gold they generate while shutting off research while ToE completes. Let's not let them drive too hard a bargain. I'm not at all sympathetic about their pleas regarding nationalism and electricity.

BTW, raising 1000g will mean shutting off research, won't it? Even if we only agree to pay for half we'll still have to raise the whole amount or else SABER will have to slow research of scientific method.

Alright, I had a look at the save. We can get The Chamber to 70 spt, which means ToE in 9. Assuming we rush factory next turn (161) and coal plant on the turn after (162), that means we start ToE on turn 163, finishing in on turn 173, just like SABER. That's the fastest we could possibly do it, and our costs would exceed 1000 gp.

Yes it is too late to send Nationalism. I had thought of it myself but I did not anticipate such a resistance by SABER. :rolleyes:

I just thought about building both ToE and Hoover in The Treasury. Can it do 40spt? It's 28spt right now but not all tiles are railed... :hmm:

If we build one of those in The Chamber and FREE takes away our prebuild (just US), we are dust. Draft-rushing fact & plant in both towns kills our cash flow. :hmm:

In response to donsig - we already have most of those 500, but yes we would have to shut down research next turn. But the research time to SciMeth shouldn't be a problem, assuming we get Electricity from FREE in reasonable time.

The problem is that if FREE goes for SciMeth after Electricity, there's really no way we can beat them, is there? And if they have a prebuild already running, it's probably calculated to complete once they get SciMeth. That's most certainly within 13 turns from now.

The problem is that if FREE goes for SciMeth after Electricity, there's really no way we can beat them, is there? And if they have a prebuild already running, it's probably calculated to complete once they get SciMeth. That's most certainly within 13 turns from now.
They have to get Medicine first. It will get even cheaper if we do the SM research because both teams would have it.

They won't be able to run 100% science and they lack the scientific wonders. We should be quicker if SABER provides some cash. I think 13 turns is realistic. Might be 12, though :shifty:

To get the wonder is the tougher part. Factory from the scratch, a couple of mines and some rails to lay for The Treasury... :hmm:

I guess we'll have some time to plan and calculate. :coffee:

There's no way The Treasury could complete ToE faster than 13 turns. It could run at max 34 shields before factory and plant, and that's at -2 fpt, which we couldn't keep up. But even if we could, it would be 13 turns. So better then to let SABER do it, if we think we have a reasonable chance. I admit I forgot about Medicine - that most certainly gives us the chance.

SABER should research SM of course, and give us Medicine when they are done.

If we sent Nationalism along with Industrialization next turn, nothing is lost. They couldn't finish the factory earlier if I had sent Nats this turn. :smug:

Did they already consider drafting? Maybe they need less money - just a compensation lost people and happiness. :pat:

We could try to take more research load in the SCIAA. Especially the smaller techs... ;)

Whew – good discussion going on here.

What about if we offer Saber 500 gold – and then go ahead and offer that we think we might be able to do the ToE in 13 turns also, but our gold costs would be more than 500 gold… therefore we're willing to do it if Saber supplies 600 gold.
However, we still think it would be best for Saber to do it, because that means we can avoid getting Medicine and Scientific Method longer, giving us more latitude in delaying FREE and keeping the research costs as high as possible for FREE.

Here's what that draft letter would look like:

Dear Saber Friends,

First of all, let me offer the sincere apology of The Council for the unbalanced nature of our previous proposal. This may sound contrived, but in all the hectic activity of trying to put a proposal together, it was a legitimate mistake on our part to try to count beakers we weren't actually going to be putting out. You were absolutely right to reject our initial distribution as unfair.

We believe we've got a much better start this time. Here's what we're thinking:
II. Technology Plan – Version 2
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Refining (4800)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)
Atomic Theory (ToE)
Electronics (ToE) [Council will do if ToE is missed]

Team Saber Total Beakers = 24,720


The Council
Nationalism (bonus)
Electricity (trade)
Industrialization (3600)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Sanitation (2700)

Council Total Beakers = 27,900

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value


In addition, it's our understanding that Team Saber will require around 1,000 gold for rushing the necessary infrastructure to get the ToE and Scientific Method in time.
The Council therefore agrees to pay half of that amount - 500 gold (as rapidly as realistically possible) - to help defray this cost and give Team Saber a leg up on rapid industrialization.

Note: our initial estimates show that we could also possibly get the ToE done in 13 turns (turn 173) but our gold costs would be higher… about 1200. In the spirit of "turn-about-is-fair-play," we'd be willing to take on the burden of building the ToE for 600 gold from you. However, we still think it would be best for you to go after the ToE, because you'd apparently be more efficient, The Council would be able to avoid getting Medicine and Scientific Method a couple turns longer, which would give us more latitude in delaying FREE, and also help to keep the research costs on those techs as high as possible for FREE.


The above section would simply replace the relevant parts of Article II in the draft SCIAA agreement we sent earlier.
We'd also have to add some language for at least a partial gold refund if our ToE gambit fails… as that will also guarantee that FREE will be the ones building Hoover.

Again, we apologize for the egregious error in our first draft proposal.
We hope this is far more palatable to your team.
Let us know as soon as possible!

Your Friends (and still hopeful Allies)

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


How's that looking?
I think we really really really want to get something to Saber before they play the save.

EDIT: Oh, and I sent this quick note to Chamnix:
Just wanted to let you know that we've got a letter nearly ready to send (at least I hope!) - so hopefully you're ok with holding the save till you've read it. We just didn't want to delay the save any longer so FREE wouldn't get suspicious.

I'm fine with it. Send her off!

Is it right to ask for a partial refund if we miss ToE? If I were SABER and we missed the wonder (and possibly ended up wasting lots of shields) what rationale would I use to justify refunding the Council a pile of gold (when their hare-brained scheme backfired)? I'm not so sure it's a good idea to bring that up. If you're saying the Council would lose out on Hoover while still carrying a heavier beaker load and should be compensated in gold that's one thing - but the word refund doesn't lead the reader in that direction.

We should include language that if SABER shuts off research for some turns while ToE finishes (and rakes in lots of gold) they should split that windfall with us.

Letter back from Chamnix:

Hi General,

Sorry I wasn't around tonight - I really meant to be, but something came up. Anyway, it looks like we are moving in a good direction - I can wait to play until we get your letter, and I will try to be available tomorrow if dutchfire can't.

Chamnix


So that’s good :)

@Donsig – that’s a good point, I guess hadn’t really thought the refund idea all the way through.
I think the best plan is to just delete that line altogether.

I don’t think we need new language about stockpiling gold, as that’s already covered under Article II, point 2.

Here’s version 2:

Dear Saber Friends,

First of all, let me offer the sincere apology of The Council for the unbalanced nature of our previous proposal. This may sound contrived, but in all the hectic activity of trying to put a proposal together, it was a legitimate mistake on our part to try to count beakers we weren't actually going to be putting out. You were absolutely right to reject our initial distribution as unfair.

We believe we've got a much better start this time. Here's what we're thinking:
II. Technology Plan – Version 2
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Refining (4800)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)
Atomic Theory (ToE)
Electronics (ToE) [Council will do if ToE is missed]

Team Saber Total Beakers = 24,720


The Council
Nationalism (bonus)
Electricity (trade)
Industrialization (3600)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Sanitation (2700)

Council Total Beakers = 27,900

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value


In addition, it's our understanding that Team Saber will require around 1,000 gold for rushing the necessary infrastructure to get the ToE and Scientific Method in time.
The Council therefore agrees to pay half of that amount - 500 gold (as rapidly as realistically possible) - to help defray this cost and give Team Saber a leg up on rapid industrialization.

Note: our initial estimates show that we could also possibly get the ToE done in 13 turns (turn 173) but our gold costs would be higher… about 1200. In the spirit of "turn-about-is-fair-play," we'd be willing to take on the burden of building the ToE if you send us half of whatever our gold costs turn out to be. However, we still think it would be best for you to go after the ToE, because you'd apparently be more efficient, The Council would be able to avoid getting Medicine and Scientific Method a couple turns longer, which would give us more latitude in delaying FREE, and also help to keep the research costs on those techs as high as possible for FREE.


The above section would simply replace the relevant parts of Article II in the draft SCIAA agreement we sent earlier.
Again, we apologize for the egregious error in our first draft proposal.
We hope this is far more palatable to your team.
Let us know as soon as possible!

Your Friends (and still hopeful Allies)

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

EDIT: SENT!


So far it’s Niklas and me voting to send it.
Others in favor or opposed?

Good text that.

I don’t think we need new language about stockpiling gold, as that’s already covered under Article II, point 2.

Are you suggesting SABER should be researching atomic theory at max speed while trying to get it free via ToE? :confused: That's a waste. My experience has been that once you know ToE is due and you can't research a needed tech before it completes you queue up atomic theory and turn off research. Might only be a turn or two but that could be a few hundred gold. I understand the clause you mention would allow us to negotiate this when the time comes but I think it makes sense to include it up front in this agreement which revolves around building ToE. I think if we don't mention it now they will argue that they should keep any gold they make this way.

Should we share with them any gold that we build up on 0% while waiting for a max run? I don't see why we should get a share of what they get, like General_W says article II already covers this. They may build up gold for a few turns, but we'd expect them to spend it on faster research on the turns that follow.

Exactly Niklas.
There's a fair ammount of good faith required by any agreement like this. I think it would come across as heavy-handed if we try to legislate something that specific.

So - that's now 3 in favor, 1 almost in favor ;), and 0 opposed so far.
I'll wait a few more hours before sending.

Anyone else want to speak up?

Got this note from Chamnix:

Hail Councillors!

I just wanted to check if you wanted us to keep holding the save. I know General_W mentioned you would be sending us a letter soon and asked us to hold the save until we read it. He also mentioned that you sent us the save because you didn't want FREE to get suspicious by your holding onto it any longer – I was thinking that it might make FREE more suspicious if Saber now also needed an extension.

I can't think of anything Saber would be doing differently on this particular turn regardless of the details of our future cooperation. Let me know if you think we should continue to hold the save.

Thanks,

Chamnix


So I sent this back:

Chamnix,

I’m still waiting for a just a couple more votes on our letter – I think our activity dropped off a bit for the weekend - if no one else speaks up in the next few hours, I’ll go ahead and send the letter.

However – if you think you wouldn’t do anything different even if you were to agree (or not) to rushing the Theory of Evolution – then I suppose there’s no real reason to hold up the save. :dunno:

I’ll get back to you as soon as I can!

- General_W


Any more votes?

Did I vote yet?

Damn the Frees! Full Saber ahead!!

looks good to me :thumbsup:

good letter. :goodjob:

I see no need to hold the save (any longer). Should SABER react to anything we decide now? I think the next thing that requires more planning is turn 161 for both teams.

Damn the Frees! Full Saber ahead!!

:lol: :lol:

Thanks for voting, all! What a great team! :)
Sending now.

Dear Saber Friends,

First of all, let me offer the sincere apology of The Council for the unbalanced nature of our previous proposal. This may sound contrived, but in all the hectic activity of trying to put a proposal together, it was a legitimate mistake on our part to try to count beakers we weren't actually going to be putting out. You were absolutely right to reject our initial distribution as unfair.

We believe we've got a much better start this time. Here's what we're thinking:
II. Technology Plan – Version 2
Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.


Technology Balance

Team SABER
Military Tradition (1920)
Medicine (3000)
Scientific Method (3000)
Refining (4800)
Replaceable Parts (4200)
Mass Production (4200)
Amphibious War (3600)
Atomic Theory (ToE)
Electronics (ToE) [Council will do if ToE is missed]

Team Saber Total Beakers = 24,720


The Council
Nationalism (bonus)
Electricity (trade)
Industrialization (3600)
Corporation (3000)
Steel (4200)
Combustion (4800)
Flight (5400)
Motorized Transport (4200)
Sanitation (2700)

Council Total Beakers = 27,900

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value


In addition, it's our understanding that Team Saber will require around 1,000 gold for rushing the necessary infrastructure to get the ToE and Scientific Method in time.
The Council therefore agrees to pay half of that amount - 500 gold (as rapidly as realistically possible) - to help defray this cost and give Team Saber a leg up on rapid industrialization.

Note: our initial estimates show that we could also possibly get the ToE done in 13 turns (turn 173) but our gold costs would be higher… about 1200. In the spirit of "turn-about-is-fair-play," we'd be willing to take on the burden of building the ToE if you send us half of whatever our gold costs turn out to be. However, we still think it would be best for you to go after the ToE, because you'd apparently be more efficient, The Council would be able to avoid getting Medicine and Scientific Method a couple turns longer, which would give us more latitude in delaying FREE, and also help to keep the research costs on those techs as high as possible for FREE.


The above section would simply replace the relevant parts of Article II in the draft SCIAA agreement we sent earlier.
Again, we apologize for the egregious error in our first draft proposal.
We hope this is far more palatable to your team.
Let us know as soon as possible!

Your Friends (and still hopeful Allies)

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Great Job, General_W :)

Hopefully your efforts here will bear bountiful fruit :D