I was reading these forums a couple weeks ago and I stumbled upon futurehermit's thread regarding Roosevelt here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=261510

I've never played Roosevelt but I liked his thoughts on leveraging his traits for a powerful early start. Specifically, building the Oracle for Metal Casting to build cheap forges and building the Great Lighthouse (cheap lighthouse and cheap wonder).

If both of those early goals can be accomplished, it sets a very powerful base. Trades routes for commerce/tech and forges for quick military production. I usually go for Currency right after Alphabet but this beginning would allow going straight for Construction and pre-AD war.

So how about a game? Here are the settings:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4122/civ4screenshot0000lk0.jpg

I went with a high sea level to make sure we'll see the benefits from the GL approach. It also means less land to conquer and since domination is my preferred form of victory, it makes the game less tedious. It is a large map though, so there should be lots of AI interaction.

I've seen several immortal and even some deity games being played here. Kudos to those players. I don't think I have it in me. I've won some immortal games but they leave little margin for error and thus not much fun for me.

Here is the start. I didn't start on the coast by it is only 1 turn away.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6857/civ4screenshot0001li6.jpg

It is a bit food poor as well. There may be some food on the other side of those hills but then again, there may not be any. I can see the coast to the East and those cows look pretty good so I'll move a bit SE of the starting position.

I hope I attached the correct save game here. I had to grab it from the auto save folder.

I'm mostly going to follow futurehermit's guide. For early wonders, I'll go for stonehenge, oracle, great lighthouse and colossus. I suppose I could go for more but those should give me a production and commerce edge on the AIs so unless happiness is a big problem, I'll go for war right away. Otherwise a detour for calender could be in order if I have any calender resources handy.

I moved my initial warrior SE and found a nice spot to settle.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7746/civ4screenshot0003rg3.jpg

Looks like a much, much better position than the starting spot. I can work the 4 resources and have 2 food left over. It would have been nice to have a fish as well but it looks like a great location.

The marble will make the Oracle a cinch to snag. I could also build the Parthenon or ToA as well but that would take me off the prescribed course of action. We'll stick with the plan.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7767/civ4screenshot0005qk9.jpg

Okay, I've scouted my surroundings and met 4 civs. My neighbors are not sharing religions yet so that's good. I'd like to war with one in the near future without pissing everyone else off.

I have some tentative city locations mapped out. I think the plan with an Organized leader with a bunch of coastal trade routes is to spam cities on the water. I'm maxed out with this setup - every city is 3 squares from its' neighbor.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1729/civ4screenshot0006ac3.jpg

Settler production time. 2nd city will be to claim the ivory. I'm already planning my elephant based attack. Out of these civs, only Alex could repel an elephant invasion. Khan would be easily wiped out.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3389/civ4screenshot0007ts2.jpg

New York goes up. A rather crappy city. At least it's coastal and can contribute some commerce. Actually, after looking around my small area and aside from my capital, no city will be a production powerhouse.

Stonehenge is a couple turns away. I've noticed BTS AI will either build this in 2400 BC or 1600 BC and usually never in between.

Mansa founds Judaism thereby preventing any strong AI relationships on this landmass. :goodjob:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5785/civ4screenshot0008ka2.jpg

Comes in at 2040 BC. BW hasn't come in yet so I built it the old fashioned way.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5688/civ4screenshot0009cs8.jpg

I popped a copper in the capital! This capital keeps getting better and better. Bureaucracy is definitely a priority.

I'm building another worker to mine and road the copper while my current worker improves New York and roads down south for my third city. City 3 will create a choke point and also claim the stone. There's a lot of desert there but it can claim 8 coastal tiles. I think I'll put the Moai Statues there to get some production out of it.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5209/civ4screenshot0010cr2.jpg

Disaster strikes in DC! Fortunately I got some gold from 2 different huts so I had it covered. Hopefully the next event will bring me +2 health or cover on all my melee units.

I'm building a work boat for city 4 (north of the corn). I'll use it to scout to the West until the city goes up.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2128/civ4screenshot0011uv2.jpg

City 3 goes up. I originally planned to settle on top of the incense but 1S got me the same number of coastal tiles with less overlap. Also, it puts me one square closer to the stone and makes it less likely an AI can culture steal the stone from me.

Oracle is one turn away. It came out really fast with the marble and the timing is just perfect. Check this out.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3645/civ4screenshot0012cz3.jpg

Following the plan I take MC and I can immediately start building a forge. Upon completion, I can build a lighthouse then the GL.

It looks like Alex is the closest AI to me. I better start building some units sooner rather than later or this game will be over really fast.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/573/civ4screenshot0013ip2.jpg

You can't even plan this. The forge will end the turn I finish researching sailing. Nice timing, eh?

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2428/civ4screenshot0014nv0.jpg

Kublai the research monster?? Did he pop Alphabet from a hut or something? Not used to seeing an AI, especially this one, researching Alphabet so early. Not sure what my next move should be after seeing this.

Although it shows I'm researching Monarchy, I haven't invested any beakers yet - it's just a placeholder.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8962/civ4screenshot0015tm1.jpg

Kublai is open to this trade. I hate to give up MC so early but it gets me IW, which I will need eventually, and Alphabet which allows me to trade MC or Alphabet to the other AIs, possibly for Maths.

There's no guarantee any AI has Maths yet or will trade it to me though so I haven't made a decision yet.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/520/civ4screenshot0017do6.jpg

Since I'm almost certain Alex will be my first foe, I'm going to focus my EPs on him. It'll be a while before I can get any info so I need to focus early.

Long time no see pete2006 .... :beer:

Hopefully another very interesting game to follow ... :goodjob:

Thanks. Good to be back! I thinking this game will be pretty exciting. Roosevelt does seem like a strong leader and it is easy to leverage his traits.

Any input on this game?

This looks really interesting. Good idea moving the stone city 1 tile south, looks like it got there just in time; do you think it's worth having 3 cities on the north coast though? The top right city will barely be able to feed itself, I would have considered just 2 cities: 1 tile west of the tundra and another on top of the wine (will give 2 :commerce: on the city tile). Sure, the GL benefit will be less but so will the maintainance cost.

But that is the beauty of Organized. Cheap courthouses and 50% maintenance costs. Those city locations look bad now but with a lighthouse + Gl + Colossus, they'll bring in a bunch of commerce.

There's no rush to build them all I admit. I imagine city4 will be north of the corn and then city 5 will be next to the sheep/grapes. Then I can put the other two off until after I war with Alex.

But that is the beauty of Organized. Cheap courthouses and 50% maintenance costs. Those city locations look bad now but with a lighthouse + Gl + Colossus, they'll bring in a bunch of commerce.

There's no rush to build them all I admit. I imagine city4 will be north of the corn and then city 5 will be next to the sheep/grapes. Then I can put the other two off until after I war with Alex.

I await the inevitable commerce boon. Deffo go for the corn one next!

Capital looks very nice !!!

Maybe i´ll do a shadow game. This start is interresting.

1 comment ... Don´t build that many cities on the small peninsula. (only later in the game maybe) Try to expand south/west to grab more land. The stone city allready blocks the AI.

Yes, I agree on delaying the crappy northern cities. On sending a couple settlers south... I'm a bit hesitant. I've yet to build any military units and Alex is my next door neighbor.

I'm thinking of building the corn city, finish my wonder building and mass producing units.

Gold, marble, copper, 2 food resources, and lots of grassland river in your capital, combined with nearby stone, will allow you to pull off early wonderspamming and make a good strategy around it? Huh, never would have guessed.

Yes, the capital is pretty great but referring to the sheep (3 food) and cows (4 food) as food resources is a bit of a stretch.

If I have settled in place, the only food sources would have been the 3F sheep and a 4F flood plain.

Wow, a better player than me following my guide :lol: Nice opening so far, great capital! I'm going to be following this with great interest! I like your opening setup. The land around your area isn't outstanding, but having both stone and marble is excellent for wonderspamming. You also have copper for the colossus, which is nice. Can't wait for the next round. Great to have you back, I loved all of your previous threads and learned a ton :goodjob:

If I can succeed with your strategy that makes you the teacher and me the student, right?

I never thought of playing Roosevelt. I usually stick with financial leaders.

The stone and marble can lead to wonder spamming but I'll try not to go overboard.

Pete, I just read some of your original threads back almost two years ago, and I'm wondering whether or not this will be one of those domination wins? :)

Domination is pretty much the only way I know how to win.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2184/civ4screenshot0000xh3.jpg

a really nice capital u have there. can't believe that the game gave u such a lousy starting position. thank god u moved. :goodjob:

i would probably settle new york near the stone to creat choke point though & have the 3rd city further out of the peninsular. u can backfill later. organize trait makes long distance settling less painful.

Looks like a cool game. I'll be following this one. Not to be a hassle but would you mind posting a few screen shots of your empire and what you know of enemy territory (with year included) when you get a chance? Just trying to get a sense of how fast you are expanding and improving your territory.
Thanks!

If I can succeed with your strategy that makes you the teacher and me the student, right?

I never thought of playing Roosevelt. I usually stick with financial leaders.

The stone and marble can lead to wonder spamming but I'll try not to go overboard.

Haha :)

The thing I like with Roosevelt is that there is absolutely no need to build cottages early-to-mid game (though you can of course). You get your beakers from settled gp (reasonably easy to get pyramids, esp with stone!), organized saves you $$, and away you go. Instead, I focus hardcore on production to expand my empire either peacefully or via warfare.

By the time I start to think about laying down cottages, it is mid-game, the CE civics are available and the taj allows me to swap into them anarchy-free. It makes for a nice transition-economy, which I am still convinced is the strongest way to play this game.

Both of those techs are techs that you want to trade for. You don't need maths for that to be worth it.. Making kublai tech ahead isn't that dangerous as he will eventually slow down.. No granary in capital hurts... Farm that grassland eh?

Well first post, here goes. Just found this site about a month ago, have been playing the Civ series since Civ I and I just love the game, albeit not as good as some of you!

I absolutely love the information I can get from here from people like Futurehermit, Sisiutil, and Sulla and Sirian's Cuban game was a fantastic read. Well before I hijack your thread Pete I just thought I'd let you know that I'll be following this game closely I like your easy going writing style and think this will be a fun game to follow. I'm at a point where I have to have financial as one of the traits to win, so watching you build big shiny wonders will be a change of pace for me. Good luck, although after this start I don't think you will need it!

I'm in (I'd put the coffee sipping smily here but couldn't find it)

Domination is pretty much the only way I know how to win.

:lol: Hahaha! That's amazing. Just curious, what's up with that 4000 BC end date? Did you retire?

a really nice capital u have there. can't believe that the game gave u such a lousy starting position. thank god u moved. :goodjob:

i would probably settle new york near the stone to creat choke point though & have the 3rd city further out of the peninsular. u can backfill later. organize trait makes long distance settling less painful.

Most games I will just settle in place without really looking for another spot. Wasted turns on normal speed really suck. The main reason I was looking to move was to get to the coast to run futurehermit's strategy and to the cows.

I think if I put city 2 by the stone and city 3 further south I would have seen a bunch of barbs attacks.

Looks like a cool game. I'll be following this one. Not to be a hassle but would you mind posting a few screen shots of your empire and what you know of enemy territory (with year included) when you get a chance? Just trying to get a sense of how fast you are expanding and improving your territory.
Thanks!

No problem. I really haven't scouted anything yet. I can see Alex's borders to the west so I know he's there. I'll scout him and the land to the south during my next turn set.

Haha :)

The thing I like with Roosevelt is that there is absolutely no need to build cottages early-to-mid game (though you can of course). You get your beakers from settled gp (reasonably easy to get pyramids, esp with stone!), organized saves you $$, and away you go. Instead, I focus hardcore on production to expand my empire either peacefully or via warfare.

By the time I start to think about laying down cottages, it is mid-game, the CE civics are available and the taj allows me to swap into them anarchy-free. It makes for a nice transition-economy, which I am still convinced is the strongest way to play this game.

I guess I should have read your outline more closely. I didn't plan on building the pyramids. I guess I could after hooking up the stone. We'll see what happens.

Both of those techs are techs that you want to trade for. You don't need maths for that to be worth it.. Making kublai tech ahead isn't that dangerous as he will eventually slow down.. No granary in capital hurts... Farm that grassland eh?

True. I'll make the trade then either research currency or maths.

Well first post, here goes. Just found this site about a month ago, have been playing the Civ series since Civ I and I just love the game, albeit not as good as some of you!

I absolutely love the information I can get from here from people like Futurehermit, Sisiutil, and Sulla and Sirian's Cuban game was a fantastic read. Well before I hijack your thread Pete I just thought I'd let you know that I'll be following this game closely I like your easy going writing style and think this will be a fun game to follow. I'm at a point where I have to have financial as one of the traits to win, so watching you build big shiny wonders will be a change of pace for me. Good luck, although after this start I don't think you will need it!

I'm in (I'd put the coffee sipping smily here but couldn't find it)

I prefer financial leaders as well. I've tried farming and running specialist and I don't like it at all. Wonders help in every game but none are really mandatory.

:lol: Hahaha! That's amazing. Just curious, what's up with that 4000 BC end date? Did you retire?

Yeah, I think I hit the wrong button on that game. On the Zulu game, I had a random barb spawning right outisde my capital. 5 archers vs. my solo warrior. Wasn't pretty. :cry:

I don't think I've faced a Phalanx since Vanilla. I'm looking over the new Phalanx stats and I can't figure out if it is stronger or weaker than before.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2748/civ4screenshot0018zx6.jpg

Basically it is axe that cannot be beaten with chariots - the same as the Vanilla Axeman. So I can still roll right over him with elephants.

I guess I should have read your outline more closely. I didn't plan on building the pyramids. I guess I could after hooking up the stone. We'll see what happens.

The pyramids are just a bonus, not a necessity imo. I like to build them, but I play on monarch :) With stone, you may be able to nab them. I still think even without them that you could get by with limited cottages, at least for awhile. My point was only that you can go harder on production earlier with Roosey.

The phalanx is a good offensive unit, but is nothing spectacular on the defensive side of things, so yes, you don't have to fear them when attacking with mounted units like you did in warlords. I think an elephant-based assault on Alex sounds like a very solid gameplan. Your empire after that point should be large enough to launch an even stronger drafted rifle army if you should choose to go that route.

This looks a fascinating game :)

The thing I notice about that capital is the lack of food, it is otherwise a great city. You will soon, with the forge, have 8 happiness and only a pop of 5 and growing at 2 food per turn and without a granary :eek: I know you have loads of "higher priorities" :p but a granary and a couple of grassland farms are going to make this capital shine a lot brighter. The sooner they're built the better.

Yes, I'll build a granary soon. Although it may have to wait a bit. I need a couple settlers and workers as well as some defensive units. The good news is that I think I'm done with wonders for a little while. Since I have ivory, I should probably snag the Statue of Zeus.

Round 2: Fight!

1040 BC to 1 AD

Started out by making some trades.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1737/civ4screenshot0019tu5.jpg

I need both and it is unlikely Khan can build the Colossus before I do so why not.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3276/civ4screenshot0020fr0.jpg

I need some archers down south in case Alex declares or the barbs get a little active.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8291/civ4screenshot0022pi8.jpg

I sent one archer down to defend Boston and then finished up the GL. Instant commerce. After currency comes through I'll have 4 trade routes in every city.

98% chance for a prophet and I got one. I could have bulbed Christianity but I decided to settle him. I'd prefer to let the other AI found the religions.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6019/civ4screenshot0026st7.jpg

I settled Philly without fully exploring the tiles to the south. I may have miscalculated here but it shouldn't matter in the long run.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9787/civ4screenshot0027nz2.jpg

I met Cathy west of Alex. They are sharing religions so that could cause problems. War isn't coming too soon so there's plenty of time to plan it out.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1540/civ4screenshot0031py2.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9329/civ4screenshot0032gw1.jpg

Made some more trades and switched into HR and slavery.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1544/civ4screenshot0035td2.jpg

Popped my second prophet. Christianity is still available but I still do not want to go that route. I thought about saving him to build the Hindu shrine after I take Athens. However, it's pretty unlikely I'll get Athens any time soon and I don't want to waste 5 gpt/turn for that long so I settled him. Plus, Alex is Phil so he ought to build the shrine himself.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2816/civ4screenshot0036vf9.jpg

My last trade for this turn set. I've already traded MC to Khan and CoL gets me a little closer to maces and that's where I'm headed so it is a good trade.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2716/civ4screenshot0037yo6.jpg

Building my invasion force. I'm thinking 5-6 elephants, 2 spears, 5 archers/crossbows, 8 maces and 6 catapults. That'll give me a good balance of offensive and defensive units. I'll also send in 3-4 triremes to Athens to pillage Alex's seafood. I could throw in a couple spies as well.

Alex has about 3 cities west of Philly that were not built on hills so they shouldn't be too hard to take. The rest are on hills so I'll need reinforcements. That probably means trebs.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7316/civ4screenshot0038fp5.jpg

Map of the known world.

After Philly finished the walls, I'll build another fish boat to explore to the south and east.

There's plenty of space between Philly and Argus to build a city to claim the cows and gems. I can either race Alex for that spot of I can let him build it and then take it when I declare war.

Right now, I've got NY building catapults, DC building elephants and Atlanta building Triremes.

I'm guessing war will come around 5-600 AD. It's just a matter of when I finish researching CS and Machinery for the maces.

As an added bonus, nearly all of Alex's cities are coastal so there shouldn't be much of a drag on the economy with the addition of his lands.

It's looking good. The trade routes are paying off as is the Collossus. That is a solid strategy on this map.

I downloaded and inspected your game, so here's some micro management considerations and general advice :p

You are planning for a war in 600 AD and building units now, which makes sense. But you don't have any courthouses yet and will need those to finance the war gains (and of course they're cheap;) ). Building them now in any cities that can will cut costs now and give the small EP income earlier and you can then build the units afterwards. The same argument applies to the market in the capital as soon as Bureaucracy is available. Essential economic infrastructure before units.

Grow the capital while you prepare for war, use some of the troops you build to increase happiness and whip them away (with Bureacracy benefit) before the war. Then move the troops to the frontline. The capital has a low food surplus even with the farms so you can't really afford to run specialists while growth is possible.

A nice trick to get some gold could be to part build the Chicken Itza in either Washington or Boston (after Moai Statues) and wait for the AI to finish it. You're getting 2.75 gold per hammer using that trick :)

The Moai Stautes can be built in Boston using more hammers, the production bonusses are +175% with stone. It is not worth whipping them for a city with only +4 food as it will take too long to regrow.

Brennus doesn't like Alex much but wants a lot of techs to go to war against him. Alex has "too much on his hands right now" :eek: - Hmmn I wonder who his target is? I guess it's Brennus but it would be good to send a scout down there to explore both their lands and know what land you're going to fight over in the next 100 turns or so.

A very interesting situation, I shall be following your progress closely.

Good points.

1 - I'm fine with delaying the courthouses. I'm at 90% science with a slight deficit so I'd prefer units right now.

2 - Chicken wonder for cash sounds like a good idea. When does the AI usually finish that? If I could use that cash to upgrade some swords to maces, that would make an earlier invasion possible. I'd love to be able to attack before Alex gets longbows.

3 - I didn't even check to see what Alex might be planning. I have a warrior scouting Brennus right now so that is covered. It would be sweet if Alex attacked Brennus. I'll need to see if I can get that to happen.

If Alex does attack Brennus, I'll have to be ready with some units to back stab him. More reason to put of courthouses a little longer.

:bump:

looks like an interesting game! continue if you have the time.

I've been unexpectedly busy lately. I should be able to upload another turn set later this week or next.

Round 3

1 AD to 780 AD

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3271/civ4screenshot0039kg1.jpg

I started the round with a civics switch. Bureaucracy for obvious reasons but I also swapped into OR. You're probably thinking, OR with no state religion? Is this guy a moron? Moron or not, I'll probably switch to Hinduism at some point because it has spread to almost all of my cities so I may as well save one turn of anarchy.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3109/civ4screenshot0040ky2.jpg

Alex demands most of my cash and I cough it up. At this point my army is pretty weak and I think Alex is ready to attack someone.


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9375/civ4screenshot0042tx0.jpg

Sure enough, the next turn Alex and Brennus declare on Mansa. Then on the following turn, Wang declares on Alex. Sweet! I should have a huge army of elephants, maces and catapults by the time I am ready to attack Alex.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/226/civ4screenshot0044vt8.jpg

Brennus stops by to ask me to join the war against Mansa. I decline and make this trade. I better get some value for it before Khan trades it to everyone.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6248/civ4screenshot0047ab0.jpg

Last turn Alex asked me to declare on Korea. I declined and made this trade with Mansa. I need some gold and with Aesthetics, I can build the SoZ. Industrious + ivory means I can get it built very quickly.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4516/civ4screenshot0048ky0.jpg

This would be the first of three water poisonings in this city. Not very happy about it but what can I do?

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4779/civ4screenshot0050dl8.jpg

Wang asks me to attack Alex and I agree. While I'd rather wait another 10 turns, I figure Alex probably has a big chunk of his army in Mansa's lands so I may as well make Wang happy.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4757/civ4screenshot0055cx9.jpg

At 4 EP/turn, I haven't accumulated enough points to make building a spy worthwhile. It took me three turns or so to bomb Alex's defenses. He had a ton of units in Thebes but they were all old units.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5999/civ4screenshot0057km5.jpg

I haven't been taking full advantage of my IND trait and the stone/marble. I ignored the GL for a long time to build units. I discovered three turns ago I could build it in 4 turns so I gave it a shot and lost out by one turn. No biggie.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5149/civ4screenshot0059ms2.jpg

I didn't lose much taking the first city, except time. I settled the GG in Washington so I can build CR2 maces/trebs.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3433/civ4screenshot0061ob9.jpg

As expected, Alex builds the shrine.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1733/civ4screenshot0062dl0.jpg

SoZ gets built. Catherine is starting to lead in the score game as well as a bunch of other categories. She hasn't gone to war yet and I've built most of the wonders so I'm guessing she has a lot of land to herself.

That means I should probably go after her once I finish off Alex. I have no desire to face Cossacks.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9319/civ4screenshot0066sl0.jpg

Catherine is starting to get very annoying. First she demands I cancel my deals with Korea, then she demands Engineering. I reject both and confirm that she will be my next target. I guess I won't be switching to Hindusim.

I pop a GM here and do nothing with him at this point. I'll send him on a trade mission later.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9471/civ4screenshot0067ex8.jpg

Wang is a good trade partner.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6627/civ4screenshot0071ov8.jpg

As is Khan. I don't remember Khan ever being so willing to trade.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4222/civ4screenshot0074lo8.jpg

After taking Thebes, I take two more of Alex's cities and found my own to work the gems. That puts my empire at 10 cities. A little small. I will found the two coastal cities now that I can afford them.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9892/civ4screenshot0073qa0.jpg

My troops are tired so I give Alex peace. There's a risk here that he'll be vassalized but I'm going to have to take it. As soon as the 10 turns are up, I'm taking him out.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8106/civ4screenshot0075ed0.jpg

End of turn. At this point, I can't see anyone beating me to liberalism. Cathy may turn it up after that point but I think I am in a good position here.

Congrats on the success v. Alex. But I'm curious about a few things:

-Philly should have been 1S
-why not get cash for upgrades from the GM?
-won't war weariness be a problem if alex has zeus and you restart the war
on turn 10? where is zeus located? can you capture it quickly?
-I wouldn't settle the northern cities until later; especially if you plan to
keep adding Alex's cities to your portfolio

Congrats on the success v. Alex. But I'm curious about a few things:

-Philly should have been 1S
-why not get cash for upgrades from the GM?
-won't war weariness be a problem if alex has zeus and you restart the war
on turn 10? where is zeus located? can you capture it quickly?
-I wouldn't settle the northern cities until later; especially if you plan to
keep adding Alex's cities to your portfolio

SoZ is in Boston, so it's not going to be a problem..

Philly was founded before exploring the southern tiles.

I settled Philly without fully exploring the tiles to the south. I may have miscalculated here but it shouldn't matter in the long run.

The main reason I didn't run the trade mission yet was because I would have to send the GM south and I was fighting Alex in the south at the time. I didn't want to lose the guy.

I think schwartz covered the rest of your questions.

Even with few espionage points, spies are a good build. They help deter the AI from doing naughtiness in your cities. Like poisoning your wells. I usually have a low production city build spies. It takes a while but they last a looooong time. I usually play marathon so that is a lot of turns catching enemy spies.

I looked at your 780 AD savegame. You are in a nice position with good territorial gains and strong research ability. Well done, but I have some constructive criticism. This trade and coastal based game is looking very strong (as I expected)

Militarilly you are strong but you are blind due to lack of espionage. You can't even see the demographic curves and research for anyone except Alex :eek:. You really should have taken my advice and built those CHEAP courthouses much earlier :p You are still only producing 12 EPs /turn this late in the game. Worse, all the AIs have substantial leads in EP spending over you. That situation is easy to rectify since you have oodles of commerce and a stack of 932 gold saved. I suggest you stop research and divert all commerce into EPs for 2 or 3 turns. You can calculate exactly how much to spend to see a) what everyone's power, GNP etc is and b) see what Cathy and Kublai are researching. At the same time this EP spending will quickly put you back into the espionage game and make spy operations against you more expensive and increase the chance of catching spies. Furthermore since you are going to eliminate Alex in a few turns I'd say he's completely the wrong target for EPs. If you don't believe my advice I strongly reccommend that you play a few turns as I suggest and see how much information you gather from passive espionage.

The GM should be settled in Washington. You don't need the gold for anything I can think of and you have a big stockpile and can easily raise more. Be prepared for the AI begging for gold from you. Washington needs food more than anything esle so a settled GM will not only give 7.5 gold per turn (eventually rising to 12 when you build a bank) but the 1 food is enough to run half a specialist which is worth another 1.5 GPP per turn (nearly equal to another wonder :D )

Wonder Spamming in Washington would be a great long term aim (as per obsolete's technique). Wait for a few turns and get stone back from Cathy and you can churn our Ankor Wat and UoS in about 7 turns and Hagia Sophia in 8 turns ... that is leveraging your trait and your good luck on the map with resources. That is a much better use of Washington in the short term than another maceman :rolleyes: You have 5 ellies and 8 macmen, no one is going to hit you soon.

Libraries are needed in many cities. Only Washington has built one and all your commerce is just being converted to beakers at 1 to 1 ratio. A sad state of affairs. You will soon be researching Education and universities need libraries. You need 6 universities for Oxford which you'll blast out in an instant in Washington. Washington should build the monastery (in 2 turns) and get 10% of 68 beakers.

Atlanta is a nice military production city. I would build a stables there and churn out war ellies and HAs with double promotions. That should be enough to keep your military rising. Philadelphia is under some cultural pressure from Seoul and a library and monastery there could easily steal the clam and protect the forest he might steal.

That's more than enough for now ;) Good luck, although I don't think you'll need it. This game is 90% in the bag and this strategy with Roosevelt is strong on this map.

I played a shadow game. And what excellent start you've got for a wonder-spammer!!


I slowed down the game speed to Marathon, and lowered the difficulty one notch to Monarch.

And as I said, in the short- to medium term, the start is excellent: both stone and marble and several happy resources as well. Its only over the long term the territory is a bit small (and all expansion is rather far away from the capital).

Compared to your game, I settled city #2 north of the stone, so as to hook up Stone straight away.

And soon the capital was not spammed with wonders, it was practically flooded by them! :)

In my game, Brennus founded Buddism, and rapidly spread it to all other civilizations (that I could see at the time)! :crazyeye: This made an early war (against Alexander) even less attractive than you found it (because our capital is busy with all them wonders).

It was very easy indeed to keep pace with scientific development, the gold and the Great People poured in - a start as good as this is rare indeed!

While Kublai (who teched better than usual for me as well) broke away from the Buddism crowd (eventually dragging the stupid little Korean with him, but deserting him when he promptly got dog-piled), and far-away Catherine was the sole Hindu, my immediate neighbours were solidly Buddist.

And with both Kublai and Catherine eyeing my low Power rating I'm not in a position to start a war against the Buddist bloc.

So here I am (Philosophy's just been founded) thinking that I need to beef up my army considerably. Not because I feel particularly unsafe, but because I need Kublai and Catherine to start looking elsewhere. For that purpose I'm currently building the all-religious-civics wonder (whatitsname?) so I can drop the yellow robes...

I haven't told them yet but I would be most happy to join either Cath or Kub if they then started attacking some other Buddist than me...

Even with few espionage points, spies are a good build. They help deter the AI from doing naughtiness in your cities. Like poisoning your wells. I usually have a low production city build spies. It takes a while but they last a looooong time. I usually play marathon so that is a lot of turns catching enemy spies.

So, you are saying that having a spy sitting in a city will prevent/discourage AI spy activity in that city? I didn't know that.

I looked at your 780 AD savegame. You are in a nice position with good territorial gains and strong research ability. Well done, but I have some constructive criticism. This trade and coastal based game is looking very strong (as I expected)

Militarilly you are strong but you are blind due to lack of espionage. You can't even see the demographic curves and research for anyone except Alex :eek:. You really should have taken my advice and built those CHEAP courthouses much earlier :p You are still only producing 12 EPs /turn this late in the game. Worse, all the AIs have substantial leads in EP spending over you. That situation is easy to rectify since you have oodles of commerce and a stack of 932 gold saved. I suggest you stop research and divert all commerce into EPs for 2 or 3 turns. You can calculate exactly how much to spend to see a) what everyone's power, GNP etc is and b) see what Cathy and Kublai are researching. At the same time this EP spending will quickly put you back into the espionage game and make spy operations against you more expensive and increase the chance of catching spies. Furthermore since you are going to eliminate Alex in a few turns I'd say he's completely the wrong target for EPs. If you don't believe my advice I strongly reccommend that you play a few turns as I suggest and see how much information you gather from passive espionage.

The GM should be settled in Washington. You don't need the gold for anything I can think of and you have a big stockpile and can easily raise more. Be prepared for the AI begging for gold from you. Washington needs food more than anything esle so a settled GM will not only give 7.5 gold per turn (eventually rising to 12 when you build a bank) but the 1 food is enough to run half a specialist which is worth another 1.5 GPP per turn (nearly equal to another wonder :D )

Wonder Spamming in Washington would be a great long term aim (as per obsolete's technique). Wait for a few turns and get stone back from Cathy and you can churn our Ankor Wat and UoS in about 7 turns and Hagia Sophia in 8 turns ... that is leveraging your trait and your good luck on the map with resources. That is a much better use of Washington in the short term than another maceman :rolleyes: You have 5 ellies and 8 macmen, no one is going to hit you soon.

Libraries are needed in many cities. Only Washington has built one and all your commerce is just being converted to beakers at 1 to 1 ratio. A sad state of affairs. You will soon be researching Education and universities need libraries. You need 6 universities for Oxford which you'll blast out in an instant in Washington. Washington should build the monastery (in 2 turns) and get 10% of 68 beakers.

Atlanta is a nice military production city. I would build a stables there and churn out war ellies and HAs with double promotions. That should be enough to keep your military rising. Philadelphia is under some cultural pressure from Seoul and a library and monastery there could easily steal the clam and protect the forest he might steal.

That's more than enough for now ;) Good luck, although I don't think you'll need it. This game is 90% in the bag and this strategy with Roosevelt is strong on this map.

Thorough analysis there.

I don't value espionage very much. I generally only use spies to revolt cities. I admit it is nice to know what all the AIs are researching but I don't think it is that important. I know what they are able to research from the tech trade screen and that is generally enough. I didn't build those courthouses earlier because I was focused on military and I still think that was more important at the time. I built a lot of courthouses during my war so many are in place now.

The EPs I have accumulated will probably give me a chance to revolt his capital so I think they were not wasted.

I was saving the GM for a later trade mission to get more gold and plan to use the gold the upgrade my maces to rifles. I didn't do the math but I assumed the trade mission will net more than the settled merchant. No?

I'm not really a fan of wonderspamming so I never thought about building those wonders. I plan to continue the military build so I can continue the fight. All of Alex's remaining cities are on hills and he'll have longbows by the time I can attack. I think I need to focus on military though maybe I should build trebs instead of maces.

I agree on the libraries. I plan to get those up. Elephants are about to obsolete though. Why build more? I'll be doing a rifle upgrade soon enough and then the elephants will be worthless.

I played a shadow game. And what excellent start you've got for a wonder-spammer!!


I slowed down the game speed to Marathon, and lowered the difficulty one notch to Monarch.

And as I said, in the short- to medium term, the start is excellent: both stone and marble and several happy resources as well. Its only over the long term the territory is a bit small (and all expansion is rather far away from the capital).

Compared to your game, I settled city #2 north of the stone, so as to hook up Stone straight away.

And soon the capital was not spammed with wonders, it was practically flooded by them! :)

In my game, Brennus founded Buddism, and rapidly spread it to all other civilizations (that I could see at the time)! :crazyeye: This made an early war (against Alexander) even less attractive than you found it (because our capital is busy with all them wonders).

It was very easy indeed to keep pace with scientific development, the gold and the Great People poured in - a start as good as this is rare indeed!

While Kublai (who teched better than usual for me as well) broke away from the Buddism crowd (eventually dragging the stupid little Korean with him, but deserting him when he promptly got dog-piled), and far-away Catherine was the sole Hindu, my immediate neighbours were solidly Buddist.

And with both Kublai and Catherine eyeing my low Power rating I'm not in a position to start a war against the Buddist bloc.

So here I am (Philosophy's just been founded) thinking that I need to beef up my army considerably. Not because I feel particularly unsafe, but because I need Kublai and Catherine to start looking elsewhere. For that purpose I'm currently building the all-religious-civics wonder (whatitsname?) so I can drop the yellow robes...

I haven't told them yet but I would be most happy to join either Cath or Kub if they then started attacking some other Buddist than me...


Hard to comment without seeing your save game. You haven't been to war yet and you are building the Cristo? Sounds like you are planning a very late war. What's your end game strategy?

I have a suggestion that might improve your game.

When I looked I saw that you placed your cities very tight on your peninsula. That would occur quite high maintenance costs that could be avoided.

Below I posted some other options for city placement.

I. Captial would be better one tile south to prevent overlapping from city V. IIRC it still has fresh water from river.
II. Marvelous city with lots of resources. Fresh water from oasis.
III. Fresh water from river and later able to build Leve.
IV. Geopolitcal chokepoint. This is NOT intended to be a good powerhouse, its main use is to give your ships a shortcut through without sailing across the entire peninsula (helps for war).
V. Extra city to claim the rest of the land. Fresh water from lake. Settling 1 north would prevent overlap, but you would only gain ocean tiles to work and lose the fresh water bonus.

Since you have already played it out this advice may not affect the current game, but helps you plan your next game in the future.

I agree that maintenance expenses suck but 7 cities will produce more than 5 cities can even if there is some overlap. Plus, all the cities are benefiting from the GL, Colossus and cheap courthouses.

Hi there

just read your previous games (including the unfinished one :confused:), I really like them :thumbsup: (nearly as much as your personal HOF :p)

I think focusing on military only now is the way to go - attack alex, get a tasty shrine and go on warring cathy.
You can save the GM for future rifle upgrades. No need to hurry things, the bigger the trade route income of the mission city the more cash. You're doing great tech-wise so no real need to bulb anything, however a GA in-between wars could be a good idea, especially if you get another Prophet...

Its a bit picky but if you'd put stone/incense 1S it would have been a bridge city so you didn't have to sail around your isthmus.

Its a bit picky but if you'd put stone/incense 1S it would have been a bridge city so you didn't have to sail around your isthmus.
That can be easily fixed by building a fort in the desert 1E of that city. That will function as a canal enabling him (and IIRC only him, not the AI) to get easy direct access to eastern/western seas with his navy.

Newbie question here. So your first build was a Worker and your second was Stonehenge? Looks like you got one of the best city spots I've ever seen. The only way it could have been better is if you had Stone instead of Marble.

Newbie question here. So your first build was a Worker and your second was Stonehenge? Looks like you got one of the best city spots I've ever seen. The only way it could have been better is if you had Stone instead of Marble.Going worker-Stonehenge is not unusual for a wonder-spamming game at emperor. You have to get the wonder out early. So worker develops the land and the city grows while building the marvel. Nice synergy.

Edit: and I disagree with you about the capital. It is good, but not great. Seriously short on food.