There was recently a great thread on overcoming an addiction to creative. I have shared that addiction, but overcame it by transferring my addiction to industrious.

I play monarch/normal/standard. I find when I play industrious leaders, I can win the majority of my games. My non-Ramesses strategy (see my threads on him for war chariot abuse) depends on whether I start inland or on the coast. If I'm on the coast, I'll target GLH/Colossus and then whichever other wonders I can snag that I think will help (Stonehenge/Oracle/Pyramids). If I start inland, I go for a semi-Obsolete start with stonehenge/gw/oracle/pyramids, but I try to get a settler out whenever possible to expand my empire.

Whenever the land runs out I will go to war. In my current game with De Gaulle I had a huge chunk of land to settle myself with KK to my north, the Dutch northwest of KK and the USA to the northeast of KK. To my west was a huge expanse of so-so territory and I could build 8-10 cities on my main chunk of decent land peacefully. We all adopted confucianism and were peaceful.

I teched hard to rifling and took out KK with a pile of rifles. However, the Dutch and USA were too close to rifling afterwards for my comfort, so I teched through steel and tanks (drafting infantry) to expand my army. I have just invaded the USA with around 60 total troops of cav/rifles/cannons/grens/infantry and I have started tank production for reinforcements. After that, the Dutch's small empire should be easy to take out. I won't win early, but I feel confident that I can win via domination at some point. I settle my gp in my capital and stay in rep the majority of the game.

What I find when I play non-industrious/non-creative leaders is that my expansion is either too slow (building stonehenge/monuments) or too painful (no real economic support from wonders, hard to get to currency/col in a timely manner).

Now that I feel comfortable with industrious leaders, I'm working on trying to branch out to other leaders. I have a fair amount of BtS experience with financial leaders and I find it is either hit or miss with them. If I get the ball rolling, I can out-tech and then crush my rivals. However, it is getting the ball rolling that I have difficulties with. The other leaders I have much less experience with as I have been playing mostly financial and industrious/creative leaders since BtS came out.

I want to start some games with leaders that have neither financial nor industrious/creative. That means limited wonders unless stone/marble are handy and a slower teching pace than a financial cottage-spam. Any advice?

Use a Cha leader.... the early extra 2 :) ( 1 from trait and another from monument/Henge ) make a lot of diference... and also has that small and almost unseeable detail of the cheaper promos :lol:

I've basically got around it by only building 1 early wonder (usually Pyramids or GLH) unless I have stone. By the time the Parthenon and GL come around I try and have at least 1 decent production city or high food city to churn out troops/settlers if the capital goes on a wonder spree.

If I have stone or marble I may try for SH, GW or the Oracle as well but it isn't a disaster if I don't build them.

For learning to play this game I find it's best to select leaders who have trouble maintaining economy the whole game esp. early game.

I find Tokugawa on Emperor a real challenge to play. He's a aggressive/protective which means free upgrades for military units. His samurai are devastating. His UB is next to worthless.

He has no economic advantages in early/mid game which makes him a pain to play. He's a good warmonger all in all but to be a warmonger you need to have an economy of some sorts...

While playing with him you have to use every trick in your book regarding maintaining economy afloat.

Usually I play him like this: Capital adopts food economy for fast worker/settler/warrior production and later for military units and GP farm. Second city usually follows capital in high food output and production. Granaries & barracks are essential. Libraries later.

Third city must be commerce city preferably by the river. Cottages there and a food resource for growth and whipping granary & library.

Fourth city should be also commerce. By that time you have to decide whether you should expand further or try to cripple you nearest neighbour.

Yeah, I got the same problem too hermit. I pretty much always play phil leader and just can't resist getting those shiny wonders to get those early great persons out.

My advise, just play anything without phil or Ind. :p You'll be less tempted that way. Maye try Asoka (spi/org), Izzy (spi/exp) or Mehmed (exp/org) ?

Though I will expect you'll make a thread "I'm addicted to spiritual" soon after. :lol:

Lots of things can replace the benefits of wonders, and the Industrious trait, especially for early game objectives:

-Philosophical: lightbulbing key techs to stay ahead in research.
-Imperialistic: gains a free :hammers: for a Settler on turn 1 (in most cases.)
-Expansive: cheap granaries can help in the very early game. Cheap workers aren't that great.

Even without Industrious nor having stone, you can get Stonehenge, if you want, in most games. You can also get the Oracle in most games if you really want it. (One or the other that is, not both.) It's a judgment call whether it's worth the investment though, as Oracle is a bigger commitment than Stonehenge. If for some reason you don't want to build Stonehenge, Oracle can be used for culture by turning the GP into a mid-game religion.

I see few wonder benefits that can't be duplicated through other means. These are just my thoughts, I don't think there's much I could tell you that you don't know. ;)

My suggestion is to roll down the Philosophical or Spiritual avenue, or take both with Gandhi.

1) Phil: OK I don't need to tell you the benefits. But in BTS, it brings on a new life late in the game with corps and tha bundance of engineer specialists. You also have the option of using the NP to create a second more powerful GP farm mid game. Phil is the trait to have to acquire numerous corps, as you can essentially force any you want late in the game providing you have not burned the GP farm out by then. If I recall you are like to target the tank era for your final dominance, this is a great way to do it as you can get GEs galore. Forget the pyramids and early representation, use the GP farm slowly at first then speed ahead once you get assembly line. You can bulb the pentagon and radio wonders with GEs real fast to set up great late game war-mongering. Another avenue is to get the Mausoleum wonder (it's the only one you need) and pop GPs like crazy for continued GAs
(easy with Phil).
2) Spritual: YEs I am a fan of those early religions, and the ability to switch civics on the dime. That early Hinduism/shrine is great for cash and playing diplomatic games. The the Christo redentor nerfs it a bit but the wonder is late and generally civics are in stone by then. Also the changed GA nerfs it. This trait is great for mid-game civic swapping to go from was to build.

Just some ideas.

for early culture :
- religion (if you found one or get one)
- grow size 2 -> whip monument (or chop monuments but hmm .. choping a simple building before maths looks like a real waste to me)
- rush for theatre and build culture to expand borders to BFC

anyway if you are not creative / have not stonehedge / have not a religion and misionnaries, you have to consider that the cultural expansion of your very first cities may take some time (the monument may be delayed for any reason), therefore found them so that they can work the essential resources immediatly.

Do a warmonger game :p

Napoleon or Hammurabi should do nice. (One war trait and Organized) Shaka could work too :p
Since you don't have any very useful "peace" traits (Financial, Industrious and the likes) you'll be forced to do the warmonger path properly. And as we know that involves taking wonders not building them ;)


What I find when I play non-industrious/non-creative leaders is that my expansion is either too slow (building stonehenge/monuments) or too painful (no real economic support from wonders, hard to get to currency/col in a timely manner).


I don't get this. You can expand just as quick without creative, it's just the borders are slower. My main problem is the first city, I need to build it next to metal etc unless I'm creative, the rest of the cities I place as I like. And COTTAGES :p easy substitute for the support from wonders. Make one of the first four cities a pure cottage city and you'll get to CoL in no time. (Whip/chop granary library etc) I also use a couple of scientists in my capital to generate GS early on.

Though I will expect you'll make a thread "I'm addicted to spiritual" soon after. :lol:
Everything can be cured, except for an addiction to spiritual. Trust me, you don't want to go there, I've been searching for a cure the past 2 months. :lol: :mischief:

I just joined a one-trait challenge, only having imperialistic and no UU/UB, hopefully it can get me back on track, but I doubt it, I just love spiritual so much! :yup:

My advice, play someone with warmongering traits, then you won't have time to make your shiny wonders and will learn how to gain through other means. Tokugawa and Temujin would be very good for this, especially Temujin.

I love industrious too. But there is a cost to those shiny wonders - fewer settlers and early cities in the early land grab. If I was going to break the addiction you could try an organized civ and go for a bigger land grab instead.

Also with non industrious, you can still easily build any wonder you have resources for. I will still build wonders, but not all of them and not in such a frenzied fashion.

Every trait can be addictive, hell I was actually adiccted to those fast imperialistic settlers for a while. One reason I rarely allow myself to play 2 games in a row that have leaders with similar traits as the previous one.

Try Washington's Cha/Exp. Whipping goodness early with cheap granaries and higher pop happy caps, and a powerful warmonger as the game goes along. Instead of Roosy's wonders and commerce just flatten everything. When you get SEALS, end the game. SEALS end games fast. Very fast. Bombard take march. Repeat. Even nastier from transports with battleship bombardment. Take a city with masses of them, board them back the next turn, and one turn after that, attack another coastal city. Fast endings...

Play random leaders.

I have the same problem that many seem to describe. I am overhooked on IND, SPI, CRE and FIN. I think its because I like to REX, and these traits seem to offer more options to support many cities.

I sort of discovered this today, before I even read this thread, because I was cleaning out my save-game folder. I have 100's of saves in there, but every single civ I play has one of those "Big 4" (except one game with Lincoln), and many have 2 (Ramses and Williem are my favorite leaders to play).

My plan to break this habit is the HoF and GotM games. The HoF board has a very interesting challenge called the Quattromasters Gauntlet Event (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/quattromasters.php), which requires you to submit a bunch of games with all kinds of maps, civs, speeds and difficulties. The MAIN reason I am looking at this event is to have a specific reason to diversify my play. I want to learn to play the tough civs. The coolest part of this system is I can play my favorite civs and leaders on the higher difficulties/harder maps, and practice the ones I am not so familiar with on lower difficulties/easier maps, if I wish.

Its a very overwhelming proposition, but I think it will make me a much better player. Hermit, I would love to have a partner of sorts to get myself started on this. It looks like a lot of fun. Heck, just getting a valid entry in all the categories is an accomplishment to be proud of.

I think maybe I'll start a public game with HRE and see what happens.

HOF gauntlets are great. Lots of advice for picking/playing leaders to their full strength in the discussion threads as well.

I think maybe I'll start a public game with HRE and see what happens.

Yay, sounds fun! :lol: TBH I won my first BTS game - when I got the expansion - with Charlemagne on a standard/hemispheres map. He can REX thanks to the Rathaus and his UU is quite a good mediveal unit IMHO.

I'm sure I'd follow you public HRE game. :goodjob:

Choose Expansive. Play Expansive leaders for a spell to get a more generic feel for the game.

The thing with Expansive is that doesn't really do anything specific for you other than boost you a little bit with respect to vertical expansion for already established new cities. That and cheaper Workers, but you get the point.

That means that it's never really that hard to exchange it for other traits. It'll feel a bit weird being slower to grow, but fast-grow tricks ought to be seondary to anyone on Monarch.

I started a game with Mehmed this morning, who actually I really enjoy as a leader. I'm not sure why, but I always seem to do well with him and have huge cities.

The game was a bit cheating, however :lol: because I was trying not to build any wonders, but I had stone in my 2nd city so I was able to build stonehenge/gw/pyramids and some other stone-based wonders, like the hanging gardens, which is actually a solid wonder for an expansive leader.

So, I didn't totally avoid wonders, but I certainly didn't spam them. I had Genghis the confucian to my west, Issy the nutjob buddhist far to the north, and protective Churchill the buddhist to my east. Buddhism spread to me.

So, the obvious path to me seemed to be taking out Genghis after my few wonders were done. I built 2 cities toward him after my eastern stone city was settled to block him off and after my wonders were done, I started building troops. After I had enough troops to feel safe, he made an arrogant demand and I refused him. He immediately declared war, but thankfully did not have an offensive stack yet. So, I finished teching through construction and built up an army to take him out. By this time he had around 8 cities and it took my slow-moving army awhile to finish the job, but eventually he was finished. Then I focused on consolidating my empire and teched to liberalism, taking nationalism ca. 1100AD. I didn't have any marble though, so I passed on the taj. I teched gunpowder next and drafted myself up a pile of janissaries to support my medieval army and wiped out Churchill except for one city he snuck up into Issy's territory. It's now ca. 1575AD and I've finished teching through rifling and Issy doesn't have it yet. I'm prepared to take her out with rifles and then consolidate my continent. The other continent has Alex, De Gaulle, and Ramesses and are fairly backwards tech-wise. It should be pretty easy to mop them up with renaissance units I am thinking, tanks at the very worst. Here is my empire where I saved:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/futurehermit/Mehmed0000.jpg

Thanks for your guys' tips, I think I'll play expansive leaders for awhile. Hereditary rule + warmongering ftw!

p.s., I forgot to say I addressed another problem in my game with this one as well--espionage. I got 2 GSpies earlyish from the GW. I also ran some spy specialists at times. Instead of ignoring espionage as I usually do, I settled both gspies in my capital (no financial techies to steal from) and focused my espionage first completely on churchill. That got me enough ep that I was able to revolt the majority of his cities while attacking--nice on protective leaders! Now I've focused my ep on Issy and have more spies en route... :D

I agree that Expansive is a good "learner" trait (i.e. helps even experts re-calibrate their game.) In order to make use of the higher health cap I tend to focus more on raising the happy cap, which is an important goal in any game. Granaries are also important in every game, so the extra incentive to use them early can foster good habits. Finally, you're not likely to have too-few Workers (a common error that may be hard to notice) when you're getting them at a discount.

One thing if you're used to Industrious leaders and trying to make a switch is that you have to learn how to effectively use specialists to generate your Great People -- normally the wonders will do it for you, but without wonders, you're going to need an alternate source for all those great people you normally get.

One thing if you're used to Industrious leaders and trying to make a switch is that you have to learn how to effectively use specialists to generate your Great People -- normally the wonders will do it for you, but without wonders, you're going to need an alternate source for all those great people you normally get.

That I have no problem with as I used to play SE exclusively. My problem is surviving economically in the early game. Or, in other words, balancing expansion/military and economy/teching. If I can do that, I can usually win. If I can't, I usually give up in frustration, even if I could probably still win in the long run :crazyeye: (I often wonder if the AI could ever win the game even if I let them on Monarch :lol: ).

I find industrious helps you out, nabbing some nice economic wonders (Pyramids, GLH, Colossus, Oracle, etc.).

However, I feel quite confident that I've overcome my addiction. I have won recent games with a few expansive leaders, including Joao who I used to consider pretty weak, and had a convincing win last night with Lincoln. Although it wasn't a super-early win, I never for one second doubted that I was going to win that game.

I had a gold pit and a good amount of food, including a number of floodplains, in my capital. I had rice, wheat, and corn in my first 3 cities. So, I went for early HR to drive my capital up to around size 15 in the BC era :lol: I built 3 total cities while then teching construction. Asoka was to my east and I took him out with 1 spear, a pile of cats, and some axes, keeping only the capital which became my gpfarm.

Then I attacked toku with the same army + reinforcements. He was to my North. I kept most of his empire, razing only cities in bad locations. AC was the only AI left on my continent and he had a huge empire to my north. We were on decent terms and I didn't want to attack during the praet era, so I teched through lib to rifling. Once there, I drafted/built around 50 rifles and took him out. Unfortunately he had the SoZ deep in his empire, so the +20WW in my cities did a number on my economy for quite awhile. However, on the other continent was Mehmed, Shaka, and Willem and they were at each others throats since all of them founded a different religion. As a result, even at 0% sci I had a large tech lead on them the whole time I was at war with AC.

Once AC was gone, I built a few settlers to finish settling out my continent. Then I spammed around 8 settlers to settle a large bunch of islands offshore while teching through industrialism. Once there, I shut off research and adopted all CE civics during a golden age. I rushbought around 100 navy seals and took out Mehmed and Shaka at the same time ftw :lol:

I won in 1902 AD for around 67k score. Like I said, it wasn't a super early win, but I never doubted for a second that I wouldn't pull it off. And I must say that charismatic seals are awesome. They were coming out with combat 4 of my HE and IW cities at the end :lol: I never got any of them to the commando promotion though, which is what I really wanted :(